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Sise-Neg at the height of his power as "Genesis" versus Eternity/Infinity. Who comes out on top?

Technically speaking, Genesis has already destroyed and recreated the universe(ie. Eternity/Infinity):
http://imgur.com/ZH9xkXp
http://imgur.com/xpuIQUF
http://imgur.com/pDXuAyR
http://imgur.com/PT546IL

That's what's confusing though. Because in Infinity Crusade Eternity/Infinity seemed to be multiversal with them not caring so much if 616 were destroyed and Eternity holding more than one universe in his hand. And Sise-Neg kept referring to a universe in the story. But at the same time it said he held all time and space within him and that's what Eternity/Infinity are, right?

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
That's what's confusing though. Because in Infinity Crusade Eternity/Infinity seemed to be multiversal with them not caring so much if 616 were destroyed and Eternity holding more than one universe in his hand. And Sise-Neg kept referring to a universe in the story. But at the same time it said he held all time and space within him and that's what Eternity/Infinity are, right?
Yeah but you're comparing stories decades apart. At the time, Seis-Neg destroyed and recreated basically all of Marvel.

Seis-Neg should win.

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
That's what's confusing though. Because in Infinity Crusade Eternity/Infinity seemed to be multiversal with them not caring so much if 616 were destroyed and Eternity holding more than one universe in his hand. And Sise-Neg kept referring to a universe in the story. But at the same time it said he held all time and space within him and that's what Eternity/Infinity are, right? You have to remember that the whole Sise-Neg affair was published back in the 70's. Sise destroyed and recreated all of what Marvel was at the time.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah but you're comparing stories decades apart. At the time, Seis-Neg destroyed and recreated basically all of Marvel.

Seis-Neg should win.

Well with that in consideration, if decades later the role of Eternity/Infinity were expanded, or their powers were made greater, would that minimize Sise-Neg's feat to being less significant than it was at the time or would it expand his feat by default since he destroyed and recreated what were later considered multiversal powers?

Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Well with that in consideration, if decades later the role of Eternity/Infinity were expanded, or their powers were made greater, would that minimize Sise-Neg's feat to being less significant than it was at the time or would it expand his feat by default since he destroyed and recreated what were later considered multiversal powers?
IMHO, it would expand it by default.

Sise-Neg

I don't see any way Sise-Neg at the end of his journey would lose. The majority of people that lowball Sise-Neg are located on Comicvine. That explains a lot.

They aren't too bright

Sise Neg actually rewound the creation process first by manipulating time then remade all of creation. IIRC Etermity had to bind to Galan to survive a creation event. Genesis wins.

^ All creation as in "all of Marvel/all Marvel universes".....or just the mainstream universe (616)?

Because I honestly don't know how you guys saw that as a multiversal story...i certainly didn't.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah but you're comparing stories decades apart. At the time, Seis-Neg destroyed and recreated basically all of Marvel.


Originally posted by Galan007
You have to remember that the whole Sise-Neg affair was published back in the 70's. Sise destroyed and recreated all of what Marvel was at the time.

Actually, not quite "all of Marvel"

being written in the 70s, doesn't mean anything. Because even back then, Marvel was still composed of infinite universes, as opposed to just one single universe.

From that Same Marvel Premiere series:

Marvel Premiere #9, Strange references universeS:

http://i.imgur.com/JvbO5w0.jpg?1

2 other examples from that same year from other titles (1974, same year when the Sise-Neg affair took place):

Marvel Spotlight v1 #17:

http://i.imgur.com/KLv6mZw.jpg?2

FF #151:

http://i.imgur.com/uz0i0EO.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/rdz21B4.jpg

(there are multiple other examples, i can provide them; i posted those 2 above instances before, that's why i posted those scans, but there are more).

In Marvel Premiere #14, we saw Sise-Neg 're-create' "this dimensions" or "the universe" (not universeS). While back then, Marvel had (countless) alternate, parallel, divergent (you name it) universes....(ive got examples from various titles confirming all this...all pre-1974).

Hell, i recall Englehart referencing "universes" in one of those Avengers/Defenders issues that he wrote around the same time period when he began writing Marvel Premiere starting with issue #9 (have to re-check that one).

Originally posted by zopzop
IMHO, it would expand it by default.

Actually, the feat wasn't expanded. The handbooks still refer to it as universal. Just like on panel

Originally posted by Galan007

Technically speaking, Genesis has already destroyed and recreated the universe(ie. Eternity/Infinity):
http://imgur.com/ZH9xkXp
http://imgur.com/xpuIQUF
http://imgur.com/pDXuAyR
http://imgur.com/PT546IL
... In this case though, like those DC cases, it was more than a single reality good friend.

All Marvel back then in that story.

And yes, Sise-Neg jumped across Time eras (alternate realities) and entered a few,
even plucked both Strange-Mordo while they were in-between universes, into an alternate reality Sise-Neg was located in.
(that right there is proof positive but yall know the rest cuz we been here before)

^ D'you mind telling me what "DC cases" are you referring to?

Also, time eras don't automatically refer to other universes, we've been over this, and it's been proven....not that there should have been any doubt to begin with.

----------------------------------------------

My reasoning behind why Sise-Neg > Eternity/Infinity:

Well, Englehart kind of hinted that in his Dr Strange 2nd series.

At the beginning he directly references the Marvel Premiere issue, and says that Strange met God (Genesis) and witnessed "creation":

http://i.imgur.com/ftgVfLU.jpg?1

4 issues later he specifically says that "creation" is constituted of Eternity/Death:

http://i.imgur.com/4mSCn6r.jpg?1

that imo, is Englehart's indirect way of saying Sise-Neg > Abstracts who embody the universe

Back then (and this concept was actually present later on as well), Eternity/Death constituted all creation.

Note: we know that "all creation" refers to a single universe, since later on, in issue #13 i think, Englehart specifically says that Eternity/Death represent a single universe, while God rules all realities.

Originally posted by operator616

^ D'you mind telling me what "DC cases" are you referring to?
The one's that have been brought out when scans are shown stating "The Universe" in the end,
but for other reasons that means all realities or multiverse. (don't get me wrong, I've done it too)

In the same fashion, this is one of those cases.
Originally posted by operator616

Also, time eras don't automatically refer to other universes, we've been over this, and it's been proven....not that there should have been any doubt to begin with.
You feel you have proof that Elaine's final creation was more than a universe even though that's what's stated.
I have my proof that the Sise-Neg story dealt with more than one universe/reality.

This is why I wasn't budding in that debate, cause I know that can be true in some cases.
Originally posted by operator616

My reasoning behind why Sise-Neg > Eternity/Infinity:
Well, Englehart kind of hinted that in his Dr Strange 2nd series.
At the beginning he directly references the Marvel Premiere issue, and says that Strange met God (Genesis) and witnessed "creation":
http://i.imgur.com/ftgVfLU.jpg?1
4 issues later he specifically says that "creation" is constituted of Eternity/Death:
http://i.imgur.com/4mSCn6r.jpg?1
that imo, is Englehart's indirect way of saying Sise-Neg > Abstracts who embody the universe
Back then (and this concept was actually present later on as well), Eternity/Death constituted all creation.
Note: we know that "all creation" refers to a single universe, since later on, in issue #13 i think, Englehart specifically says that Eternity/Death represent a single universe, while God rules all realities.
Coolly cool stuff for the onlookers. btw. Sise-Neg became Genesis who was God.

Therefore I have to agree with you, he was God of all realities.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The one's that have been brought out when scans are shown stating "The Universe" in the end,
but for other reasons that means all realities or multiverse. (don't get me wrong, I've done it too)

In the same fashion, this is one of those cases.


You'll have to specify which cases, and ill tell you exactly why (I) believe so. I know for a fact that i never regard something as "multiversal" if its case is as weak and as contradictory as Sise-Neg's. So im waiting for you to specify.

I certainly won't argue when a story specifically says that "this dimension"/"a cosmos" was re-created. 3 handbooks supporting that it's a universe, one canon retelling outright telling us that what Genesis recreated, was a universe (let's ignore all that, right?)....never mind the fact that alternate realities were never depicted in the story itself despite the fact that they were used before in the 70s and even the 60s.

So honestly, which is the stronger case here, is it in favor or against Sise-Neg? (anyone reasonable, at least should admit that the stronger case is against Genesis')

Originally posted by Mr Master
You feel you have proof that Elaine's final creation was more than a universe even though that's what's stated.
I have my proof that the Sise-Neg story dealt with more than one universe/reality.

This is why I wasn't budding in that debate, cause I know that can be true in some cases.


I don't "feel" that i have proof of Elaine's creation being more than a universe, i in fact do have proof; she directly referenced multiple universes in issue #70. so yeah....i don't just randomly pick instances and regard them as multiversal because i "feel" so. I also don't really care about whether Elaine's creation is a universe or a multiverse, since it's completely irrelevant to anyone's power-level. Universe....multiverse...regardless, Elaine was "God" as in, the Presence directly gave her his position and power (even though it was ignored in mainstream DCU, but at least in Vertigo, she was)

But really...despite the fact that Lucifer's creation was stated a multiverse (which is more than i can say for Sise-Neg), i do accept people believing it's merely a universe since it was called so, on panel several times and no parallel realities were ever shown on panel. Yahweh's creation on the other hand.....calling it a universe is blatantly ignoring the entire Vertigo-verse.

Originally posted by Mr Master

btw. Sise-Neg became Genesis who was God.

Therefore I have to agree with you, he was God of all realities.

Thanks for telling me the obvious. It's not like the scan i posted says that...or the Marvel Premiere issues...

Why are you twisting my words? I never said that Sise Neg was "God of all realities", that was a reference to the deity which will later be known as TOAA.

You basically ignored the entire past debate, where we had the time-travel discussion, and where it was clearly pointed out and proven that other eras don't always equate to separate universes, especially when nothing of the sort is mentioned in the story itself....kind of frustrating a bit...after all the effort and proof...but really, forget it, whatever. Believe what you want.

Originally posted by operator616

You'll have to specify which cases, and ill tell you exactly why (I) believe so. I know for a fact that i never regard something as "multiversal" if its case is as weak and as contradictory as Sise-Neg's. So im waiting for you to specify.
I certainly won't argue when a story specifically says that "this dimension"/"a cosmos" was re-created. 3 handbooks supporting that it's a universe, one canon retelling outright telling us that what Genesis recreated, was a universe (let's ignore all that, right?)....never mind the fact that alternate realities were never depicted in the story itself despite the fact that they were used before in the 70s and even the 60s.
So honestly, which is the stronger case here, is it in favor or against Sise-Neg? (anyone reasonable, at least should admit that the stronger case is against Genesis')
I don't "feel" that i have proof of Elaine's creation being more than a universe, i in fact do have proof; she directly referenced multiple universes in issue #70. so yeah....i don't just randomly pick instances and regard them as multiversal because i "feel" so. I also don't really care about whether Elaine's creation is a universe or a multiverse, since it's completely irrelevant to anyone's power-level. Universe....multiverse...regardless, Elaine was "God" as in, the Presence directly gave her his position and power (even though it was ignored in mainstream DCU, but at least in Vertigo, she was)
But really...despite the fact that Lucifer's creation was stated a multiverse (which is more than i can say for Sise-Neg), i do accept people believing it's merely a universe since it was called so, on panel several times and no parallel realities were ever shown on panel. Yahweh's creation on the other hand.....calling it a universe is blatantly ignoring the entire Vertigo-verse.
Thanks for telling me the obvious. It's not like the scan i posted says that...or the Marvel Premiere issues...Why are you twisting my words? I never said that Sise Neg was "God of all realities", that was a reference to the deity which will later be known as TOAA.
You basically ignored the entire past debate, where we had the time-travel discussion, and where it was clearly pointed out and proven that other eras don't always equate to separate universes, especially when nothing of the sort is mentioned in the story itself....kind of frustrating a bit...after all the effort and proof...but really, forget it, whatever. Believe what you want.
So, I guess this means we disagree. After all my effort and proof. I feel the same.

Cool stuff regardless. stoned