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who will win this fight? no bfr.

WBH is easily a trans level being. King thor is considered a skyfather but we all learned that a skyfather is a title and not power level. who will win this epic fight of epic proportions?

KThor.

If this is Reigning Thor he dominates Hulk.

but WBH destroyed a dimension didnt he?

King Thor wins.

wait a second people wait a second!!!!!. WBH destroyed a planet full of herald level beings just from the shockwaves of his punch!!!!! how can he lose?

KT wins

Done quite a bit and Thor wins

Thor.

Originally posted by JuggernautMania
but WBH destroyed a dimension didnt he? Hulk loses.

Worldbreaker FTW

Bait thread and Hulk did exactly what I said he did.

Thor

Thor

Thor

Hand to hand Hulk All out Thor if he is close to Odin in power.

WBH with ease. One punch kills Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
WBH with ease. One punch kills Thor Based on ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Based on ?

Based on the fact that his strength feat is far beyond any durability feat by KT.
Based on his durability feat is far beyond any power output feat made by KT.

Originally posted by h1a8
Based on the fact that his strength feat is far beyond any durability feat by KT.
Based on his durability feat is far beyond any power output feat made by KT. Disintegration feat by the Destroyer.

actually H1 has a point. if hulks attack is able to destroy herald level being just from the shockwave and destroy a planet and dimension, what attacks did king thor took that can support the claim he will withstand it? but same thing could be said about WBH. King Thor took off the head of desak in the destroyer armor, WBH doesnt have the durability feats to suggest he can survive such power. i do believe each of them has the potential to one shot the other. tough call IMO.

Originally posted by JuggernautMania
actually H1 has a point. if hulks attack is able to destroy herald level being just from the shockwave and destroy a planet and dimension, what attacks did king thor took that can support the claim he will withstand it? but same thing could be said about WBH. King Thor took off the head of desak in the destroyer armor, WBH doesnt have the durability feats to suggest he can survive such power. i do believe each of them has the potential to one shot the other. tough call IMO. I just named the feat above me. Quit ignoring what I just stated.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Disintegration feat by the Destroyer. WBH power output feat was far beyond any power output feat by the disintegrating beam.

Originally posted by JuggernautMania
actually H1 has a point. if hulks attack is able to destroy herald level being just from the shockwave and destroy a planet and dimension, what attacks did king thor took that can support the claim he will withstand it? but same thing could be said about WBH. King Thor took off the head of desak in the destroyer armor, WBH doesnt have the durability feats to suggest he can survive such power. i do believe each of them has the potential to one shot the other. tough call IMO. hulk endured over a million times the power of the feat when he collided. That means his durability can match or exceed his power output.

KT with the greatest of ease

Well King Thor Is less powerful Than Zeus, We know this from marvel: The End

KT from reigning uttlerly sh** stomps, KT is still far above WBH!

Originally posted by JuggernautMania
actually H1 has a point.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/628/images3jj.jpg

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Well King Thor Is less experienced Than Zeus, We know this from marvel: The End

fixed

Originally posted by h1a8
WBH power output feat was far beyond any power output feat by the disintegrating beam.

hulk endured over a million times the power of the feat when he collided. That means his durability can match or exceed his power output. Based on ?

Originally posted by Damborgson
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/628/images3jj.jpg

Originally posted by JuggernautMania
actually H1 has a point. IMO. this is how I know we can never be friends.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
this is how I know we can never be friends. There should be other reasons as well.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
this is how I know we can never be friends. Thor wins

Originally posted by carver9
Bait thread and Hulk did exactly what I said he did.

Is this a thread made to spite you?

Originally posted by Bentley
Is this a thread made to spite you?

No comment.

People in favor of King Thor winning have points, while people on WB Hulk's side have points as well.

WB Hulk's power stunts seemed more impressive to me, as well as the implied power that he was touting around with. While King Thor was not measured up against anyone like WB Hulk of long standing history. Although his defeat of Desak in the Destroyer was impressive, how much force was Desak actually hit with? This is another one of those matches that the guy that people like the most wins. As for the people saying one stomps... They really need to reevaluate that opinion, because both of these guys are power houses. It should also be known that the Hulk was no where near HOTM levels when Zeus tea bagged him.

Did WBH during HOTM even show a limit? That was the start off of his attack, warm up. He was basically just getting started.

Originally posted by carver9
Did WBH during HOTM even show a limit? That was the start off of his attack, warm up. He was basically just getting started. Yes because Hulk by himself would have done 10 times the damage he and Rshulkie did combined SIKEEEEE. Thor still

Originally posted by quanchi112
Based on ? based on comics

WBH feat is greater than any disintegrating beam feat.

His durability can match his power output by the showing of the collision.

Originally posted by the Darkone
KT with the greatest of ease
Originally posted by the Darkone
KT from reigning uttlerly sh** stomps, KT is still far above WBH! WBH feats are far above anything KT has ever done. So your comment is baseless

Originally posted by h1a8
WBH feats are far above anything KT has ever done.
Such as?

Originally posted by h1a8
WBH feats are far above anything KT has ever done. So your comment is baseless

WBH's SHARED feat, let's clarify.

Also:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/146104/2837954-kingthor_time_freeze.png

WBH wins this.
Hulk easily trumped Umar in her own dimension and, by easily I mean that he wasn't even exerting himself.

Unlike KT, Hulk has never been properly tested, his feats as stupendous as they are, represent just the minimal impact of his punches.

He's demonstrated to be atleast as powerful as one-half of the IB, to be immune to time-freeze/stop and to be capable of punching through time.

Simply put, WBH/Hulk has the better on-panel feats and those aren't even indicative of him trying very hard. KT loses this.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
WBH's SHARED feat, let's clarify.

Also:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/146104/2837954-kingthor_time_freeze.png

That's great and dandy but we have to argue character here. I'm not sure KT WANTS to do a timestop in a battle. That would go against his warrior mentality. He never attempted to time stop in EVERY battle he occurred. I can see if he did it once in mid battle. Then that would prove it is in his character.
But if he is of the cowardly character to just time stop right away (or arguing power sets in which I'm fine with) then I'm pretty sure he could possible beat WBH. His power set makes him not able to lose to anyone not immune to operating in time (abstract beings). That means he can't lose to any non abstract being.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Such as? It takes more than a billion times more force to destroy something without touching it from hundreds of yards away.

Does KT have the power output to destroy a planet while disintegrating thousands of mindless ones (who can overwhelm a skyfather) at the same time along other Hulk peers?

If so then that is awesome. Note:

Now does he have the powerout of a billion times more than that?
See that's the critical difference in the two.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's great and dandy but we have to argue character here. I'm not sure KT WANTS to do a timestop in a battle. That would go against his warrior mentality. He never attempted to time stop in EVERY battle he occurred. I can see if he did it once in mid battle. Then that would prove it is in his character.
But if he is of the cowardly character to just time stop right away (or arguing power sets in which I'm fine with) then I'm pretty sure he could possible beat WBH. His power set makes him not able to lose to anyone not immune to operating in time (abstract beings). That means he can't lose to any non abstract being.

It takes more than a billion times more force to destroy something without touching it from hundreds of yards away.

Does KT have the power output to destroy a planet while disintegrating thousands of mindless ones (who can overwhelm a skyfather) at the same time along other Hulk peers?

If so then that is awesome. Note:

Now does he have the powerout of a billion times more than that?
See that's the critical difference in the two.

Oh, ok, let's argue in character then.

In a featureless environment, with Hulk unsure as to whether KT could keep coming back over and over again, Hulk holds himself back, and depowers himself to normal Hulk levels.

KT kills him.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's great and dandy but we have to argue character here. I'm not sure KT WANTS to do a timestop in a battle. That would go against his warrior mentality. He never attempted to time stop in EVERY battle he occurred. I can see if he did it once in mid battle. Then that would prove it is in his character.
But if he is of the cowardly character to just time stop right away (or arguing power sets in which I'm fine with) then I'm pretty sure he could possible beat WBH. His power set makes him not able to lose to anyone not immune to operating in time (abstract beings). That means he can't lose to any non abstract being.

It takes more than a billion times more force to destroy something without touching it from hundreds of yards away.

Does KT have the power output to destroy a planet while disintegrating thousands of mindless ones (who can overwhelm a skyfather) at the same time along other Hulk peers?

If so then that is awesome. Note:

Now does he have the powerout of a billion times more than that?
See that's the critical difference in the two.

Oh, ok, let's argue in character then.

In a featureless environment, with Hulk unsure as to whether KT could keep coming back over and over again, Hulk holds himself back, and depowers himself to normal Hulk levels.

KT kills him.

Otherwise, we're ignoring characters, and using powersets, right?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh, ok, let's argue in character then.

In a featureless environment, with Hulk unsure as to whether KT could keep coming back over and over again, Hulk holds himself back, and depowers himself to normal Hulk levels.

KT kills him.

For the sake of the stipulation of the thread we must argue WBH and not any other version of Hulk. That means he cannot go back to normal levels or WWH levels based off the stipulations. In other words, he is bloodlusted here.

1. KT wins if he time stops
2. KT wins if WBH goes to normal levels
3. WBH wins if 1. and 2. aren't an option.

Is that better?

Originally posted by h1a8
For the sake of the stipulation of the thread we must argue WBH and not any other version of Hulk. That means he cannot go back to normal levels or WWH levels based off the stipulations. In other words, he is bloodlusted here.

1. KT wins if he time stops
2. KT wins if WBH goes to normal levels
3. WBH wins if 1. and 2. aren't an option.

Is that better?

He would still hold back. It's well known that the Hulk does not kill. King Thor kills. Even if he does not depower himself to normal Hulk levels, nor will he be outputting the amount of damage he did in the Dark Dimension with Betty.

Just want to throw out there that Hulk recently bypassed timestop (a weaker version of Hulk). He was still moving while everyone else was frozen in time.

With that said, please continue.

Originally posted by carver9
Just want to throw out there that Hulk recently bypassed timestop (a weaker version of Hulk). He was still moving while everyone else was frozen in time.

With that said, please continue.

Different version of Hulk. Inapplicable.

Mod ruling (used for WWH, but still):



Plus, Strange used a time stop in the Dark Dimension. WBH didn't move, did he? Or am I missing something.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Different version of Hulk. Inapplicable.

Mod ruling (used for WWH, but still):



Plus, Strange used a time stop in the Dark Dimension. WBH didn't move, did he? Or am I missing something.

Hulk is Hulk and this Hulk is a weaker version of Hulk.

So did WBH manage to power through the time-stop of Strange?

And not all Hulks are equal. Mod ruling.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So did WBH manage to power through the time-stop of Strange?

And not all Hulks are equal. Mod ruling.

Don't know. I don't think he tried. This Hulk actually took the initiative to power through it due to a cause.

Originally posted by carver9
Don't know. I don't think he tried. This Hulk actually took the initiative to power through it due to a cause.

So in character, he won't try?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So in character, he won't try?

Don't see why not. He will be fighting a target that he is trying to get to. So why wouldn't he. His focus was on She Rulk during the time Strange stopped time.

Originally posted by carver9
Don't see why not. He will be fighting a target that he is trying to get to. So why wouldn't he. His focus was on She Rulk during the time Strange stopped time.

Evidence that WBH can power through a mystical time stop, as opposed to a technological one? You could try using a different Hulk, but you have already acknowledged that they are different ('This' Hulk actually etc etc....)

Hulk had that chronal metal when he overcame the time stop, either way KT wins, too many options, time stop being just one.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Evidence that WBH can power through a mystical time stop, as opposed to a technological one? You could try using a different Hulk, but you have already acknowledged that they are different ('This' Hulk actually etc etc....)

Huh? Time stop is time stop. Hulks don't just gain new powers out of the wood work, it's part of him. Also, when was it mentioned him having Chronal metal during that instance because all of the powers worked on Hulk, he just powered through it. He was even aged during that instance and probably would have died if it wasn't for the sword. It was even stated that it would be hard for Hulk to battle someone who could control time. Excuses.

All of this wasn't directed at you Dark.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Hulk had that chronal metal when he overcame the time stop, either way KT wins, too many options, time stop being just one.

Different Hulk
Assistance using non standard equipment
Different timestop natures (mystical vs technological)

A summary of the arguments against carver.

Against h1:
1. In character, Hulk will hold back. So any arguments about his amazing powerlevels is moot, as he only did that when he was sure it had no consequences.
2. It was a shared feat that he did with Betty. So destroying the world wasn't as impressive (still damn impressive) as he's trying to calculate it to be.
3. Time stop.

If h1 argues about character mindsets, then please see point 1. If he doesn't, see point 3.

KT wins.

Originally posted by carver9
Huh? Time stop is time stop. Hulks don't just gain new powers out of the wood work, it's part of him. Also, when was it mentioned him having Chronal metal during that instance because all of the powers worked on Hulk, he just powered through it. He was even aged during that instance and probably would have died if it wasn't for the sword. It was even stated that it would be hard for Hulk to battle someone who could control time. Excuses.

All of this wasn't directed at you Dark.

You're scared

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Different Hulk
Assistance using non standard equipment
Different timestop natures (mystical vs technological)

A summary of the arguments against carver.

Against h1:
1. In character, Hulk will hold back. So any arguments about his amazing powerlevels is moot, as he only did that when he was sure it had no consequences.
2. It was a shared feat that he did with Betty. So destroying the world wasn't as impressive (still damn impressive) as he's trying to calculate it to be.
3. Time stop.

If h1 argues about character mindsets, then please see point 1. If he doesn't, see point 3.

KT wins.

Regardless of Hulk holding back or not, Thor wS accomplishing similar feats to HotM Hulk's during the god butcher arc, so you add in the OF and it's a no brainer in Thor's favor for me.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Regardless of Hulk holding back or not, Thor wS accomplishing similar feats to HotM Hulk's during the god butcher arc, so you add in the OF and it's a no brainer in Thor's favor for me.

True. A Thor is a Thor is a Thor, after all.

All of the feats that a weaker, OF-less Thor are also applicable. Just ramped to the max, now.

Thor wins

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True. A Thor is a Thor is a Thor, after all.

All of the feats that a weaker, OF-less Thor are also applicable. Just ramped to the max, now.

Biased. By the way, I think KT wins this. Had to make some corrections to some stuff.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Different Hulk
Assistance using non standard equipment
Different timestop natures (mystical vs technological)

A summary of the arguments against carver.

Against h1:
1. In character, Hulk will hold back. So any arguments about his amazing powerlevels is moot, as he only did that when he was sure it had no consequences.
2. It was a shared feat that he did with Betty. So destroying the world wasn't as impressive (still damn impressive) as he's trying to calculate it to be.
3. Time stop.

If h1 argues about character mindsets, then please see point 1. If he doesn't, see point 3.

KT wins.

Your summary is wrong though.

Originally posted by carver9
Your summary is wrong though.

Proof that I summarised things incorrectly? Not asking about whether my/others arguments are right or not, because we are debating.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Proof that I summarised things incorrectly? Not asking about whether my/others arguments are right or not, because we are debating.

Assistance using non standard equipment. What assistance?

Also, time stop is time stop. The nature of time stop doesn't matter. Flash and Spectrum moved through time stop. Am I suppose to discredit their showing just because it was magical?

Originally posted by carver9
Assistance using non standard equipment. What assistance?

Also, time stop is time stop. The nature of time stop doesn't matter. Flash and Spectrum moved through time stop. Am I suppose to discredit their showing just because it was magical?

Meant to say, "wasn't magical".

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He would still hold back. It's well known that the Hulk does not kill. King Thor kills. Even if he does not depower himself to normal Hulk levels, nor will he be outputting the amount of damage he did in the Dark Dimension with Betty. ok so WBH isn't going to kill him with a haymaker. But rather he would just flick his finger and Ko him. So yes WBH would hold back and just Ko KT. Good analysis.


Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Different Hulk
Assistance using non standard equipment
Different timestop natures (mystical vs technological)

A summary of the arguments against carver.

Against h1:
1. In character, Hulk will hold back. So any arguments about his amazing powerlevels is moot, as he only did that when he was sure it had no consequences.
2. It was a shared feat that he did with Betty. So destroying the world wasn't as impressive (still damn impressive) as he's trying to calculate it to be.
3. Time stop.

If h1 argues about character mindsets, then please see point 1. If he doesn't, see point 3.

KT wins. it was a shared feat that had Hulk supply exactly half of the power. So instead of billions of times we can just use 1 billion or simply 500 million. Is that better?

Hulk would hold back and one shot Ko KT instead of one shot kill him. Good analysis.

Originally posted by h1a8
ok so WBH isn't going to kill him with a haymaker. But rather he would just flick his finger and Ko him. So yes WBH would hold back and just Ko KT. Good analysis.


it was a shared feat that had Hulk supply exactly half of the power. So instead of billions of times we can just use 1 billion or simply 500 million. Is that better?

Hulk would hold back and one shot Ko KT instead of one shot kill him. Good analysis.

You will need to prove it was 500 million. Which, considering you didn't even account for something as basic as Betty being there (which was clear and made explicit in the comic) makes me suspicious about other assumptions you have made.

Next, calculate how much energy it takes to stop time. Then, and only then, can you compare like with like.

Looking at the ft, it appears Hulk and Betty created the explosion just by bumping into each other. Wasn't even a full fledge hit.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8901478/Incredible_Hulks_635_003.jpg.html

The most powerful incarnation of Hulk vs the 3rd most powerful version of Thor? I'm a Thorbag so I really want to say Thor but that's quite a lot of power Hulk is tossing around. I'm going to have to agree with a previous poster and say they both have the potential to kill the other. Thor has more options at his disposal but I think Hulk will be able to turn it into a melee before Thor can use those options.

Hulk 6/10,due to simplicity of using his powers to their fullest.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You will need to prove it was 500 million. Which, considering you didn't even account for something as basic as Betty being there (which was clear and made explicit in the comic) makes me suspicious about other assumptions you have made.

Next, calculate how much energy it takes to stop time. Then, and only then, can you compare like with like. Basic physics. It takes more than billions of times more force to destroy something from a hundreds of yards away without touching it. Smack the shit out of yourself from a hundred yards away and I guarantee that no one will even feel a billionth of the force you got struck with.


500 million?
BILLIONS! Not millions. I was just being nice.

The energy required to stop time in a location is irrelevant (tech can achieve it with small amounts of power).

So, WBH > King Thor because he can destroy a planet from a distance, is what I gather

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
The most powerful incarnation of Hulk vs the 3rd most powerful version of Thor? I'm a Thorbag so I really want to say Thor but that's quite a lot of power Hulk is tossing around. I'm going to have to agree with a previous poster and say they both have the potential to kill the other. Thor has more options at his disposal but I think Hulk will be able to turn it into a melee before Thor can use those options.

Hulk 6/10,due to simplicity of using his powers to their fullest.

How does KT being the 3rd most powerful version of the character change anything whatsoever? KT's max is still > Hulk's.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Different version of Hulk. Inapplicable.

Mod ruling (used for WWH, but still):



Plus, Strange used a time stop in the Dark Dimension. WBH didn't move, did he? Or am I missing something.
He didn't.

http://i.imgur.com/wATyDRps.jpg http://i.imgur.com/nH05OMMs.jpg http://i.imgur.com/gvaNueis.jpg http://i.imgur.com/FRXvGbbs.jpg

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So, WBH > King Thor because he can destroy a planet from a distance, is what I gather Disintegrate thousands of beings that can overwhelm a skyfather >>>>>> a planet. Destroy them and it indirectly through physical strength.

Plus we go on showings or feats. KT has no feats in the same magnitude. So that's a yes to your question.

Originally posted by h1a8
It takes more than a billion times more force to destroy something without touching it from hundreds of yards away.

Cite an actual scientific article which supports this assertion of yours.

Not some bullshit experiment you did at home, but an actual study.

Otherwise these are just made up numbers on your part.

Originally posted by carver9
Assistance using non standard equipment. What assistance?

Also, time stop is time stop. The nature of time stop doesn't matter. Flash and Spectrum moved through time stop. Am I suppose to discredit their showing just because it was magical?
WBH has been affected by a time stop though.

In the very same arc from which this "billions of times more power" bs is being spouted.

Originally posted by carver9
Huh? Time stop is time stop.
Lightning is lightning. Whether it is magical should have no bearing on anything....

Except for the fact that SBP can resist the magical variety.

Magical version=/=regular version.

What "skyfather" did the mindless ones overwhelm ?

Originally posted by h1a8
Basic physics. It takes more than billions of times more force to destroy something from a hundreds of yards away without touching it. Smack the shit out of yourself from a hundred yards away and I guarantee that no one will even feel a billionth of the force you got struck with.


500 million?
BILLIONS! Not millions. I was just being nice.

The energy required to stop time in a location is irrelevant (tech can achieve it with small amounts of power).

Then show it. Show how destroying a planet with the shock waves is billions of times more powerful than stopping time.

Don't understand why people are arguing over time stop versus Hulk punch when it would be more common for Hulk to throw a melting punch in battle than KT stopping time in battle. Also, it was stated in the comic that Umar couldn't stop the Mindless ones, and she couldn't which was the reason Hulk was there to push them back while she put up a force field. Before this, they were roaming around freely because she couldn't contain them. I don't get what's the point of all of this when KT still wins the battle but like most have said, it will not be easy, at all.

Umar got her shit knocked out by Thor...

And she survived the Mindless Ones getting evaporated pretty effortlessly too. The same Mindless Ones who have been destroyed so many times... sososososo many times. The better feat was the actual notable characters getting killed. But I see nobody really wants to use that because they were never said to overwhelm a SKYFATHER

Destroying canon fodder from a distance, and trying to paint Umar as a legit skyfather isn't the best way to go about it.

Not to mention the funny part about this whole thing is that KT has Odin's powers, and Odin's galaxy destroying fight/multiversal shockwave fight with non direct attacks has been downgraded to being comparable to fluff. But logic you know. It is great. Another note, why do people still argue with h1? If everyone just put him on ignore, this world would be a better place.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Umar got her shit knocked out by Thor...

And she survived the Mindless Ones getting evaporated pretty effortlessly too. The same Mindless Ones who have been destroyed so many times... sososososo many times. The better feat was the actual notable characters getting killed. But I see nobody really wants to use that because they were never said to overwhelm a SKYFATHER

Destroying canon fodder from a distance, and trying to paint Umar as a legit skyfather isn't the best way to go about it.

Not to mention the funny part about this whole thing is that KT has Odin's powers, and Odin's galaxy destroying fight/multiversal shockwave fight with non direct attacks has been downgraded to being comparable to fluff. But logic you know. It is great. Another note, why do people still argue with h1? If everyone just put him on ignore, this world would be a better place.

I agree with almost everything you've said. Also, isnt Umar rocking Dormammu power which is the reason he is near powerless right now? There are times when the Mindless ones are quite powerful and during that arc, they were literally uncontrollable/un-containable. No one never disagreed with Umar surviving the attack. No one did not disagree with KT winning (minus H1 of course).

I wouldn't consider everyone there as canon fodder either and of.course they wouldn't have people like Juggernaut and Thor there melting from Hulks sky bomb but we have other showings that we can use to cover those corners.

It doesn't matter because I agree with a GOOD portion of your post and I truly don't understand why people respond to H1 as well. This thread would have died out a while ago if it wasn't for him.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with almost everything you've said. Also, isnt Umar rocking Dormammu power which is the reason he is near powerless right now? There are times when the Mindless ones are quite powerful and during that arc, they were literally uncontrollable/un-containable. No one never disagreed with Umar surviving the attack. No one did not disagree with KT winning (minus H1 of course).

I wouldn't consider everyone there as canon fodder either and of.course they wouldn't have people like Juggernaut and Thor there melting from Hulks sky bomb but we have other showings that we can use to cover those corners.

It doesn't matter because I agree with a GOOD portion of your post and I truly don't understand why people respond to H1 as well. This thread would have died out a while ago if it wasn't for him. Are you talking about the Eternity fiasco that was like a decade ago?

They always are uncontrollable. That doesn't make their durability rise up. And they were contained by Umar's shield anyway until Hulk broke it.

All the Mindless Ones were. And considering the complete and utter shit showings they have, using them to say that SKYFATHER UMAR couldn't beat them doesn't apply to King Thor.

You're just saying that while you basically disagreed with my entire post while only agreeing with ignoring H1. Mind you, that was a good section.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Are you talking about the Eternity fiasco that was like a decade ago?

They always are uncontrollable. That doesn't make their durability rise up. And they were contained by Umar's shield anyway until Hulk broke it.

All the Mindless Ones were. And considering the complete and utter shit showings they have, using them to say that SKYFATHER UMAR couldn't beat them doesn't apply to King Thor.

You're just saying that while you basically disagreed with my entire post while only agreeing with ignoring H1. Mind you, that was a good section.

No, not the eternity fiasco. I'm talking about Dormammu currently being depowered and defeated by a low level Avenger team because he doesn't possess a portion of his true power.

Yes, their durability is wish washy except towards energy attacks which has been proven throughout their history.

I never said it applied to KT since I am one of the peeps that believes he could kill a group of them based off his fts, BUT, that's even debatable if we look at THEIR fts (not including their low ones) against skyfathers, including Dormammu.

Naah, I don't agree with H1 at all, I mainly agreed with your post, and like I've said before, KT wins this.

Thor absolutely wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor absolutely wins.

Lets not go to far with this (absolutely).

Originally posted by carver9
No, not the eternity fiasco. I'm talking about Dormammu currently being depowered and defeated by a low level Avenger team because he doesn't possess a portion of his true power.

Yes, their durability is wish washy except towards energy attacks which has been proven throughout their history.

I never said it applied to KT since I am one of the peeps that believes he could kill a group of them based off his fts, BUT, that's even debatable if we look at THEIR fts (not including their low ones) against skyfathers, including Dormammu.

Naah, I don't agree with H1 at all, I mainly agreed with your post, and like I've said before, KT wins this. Scan me then Scan Daddy

That's h1 babble now. Spider-Man level punches can lay them low... but not high herald energy attacks!
That's the logic you're employing. And considering Cyclops was recently shown shredding them, and by shredding I mean almost completely evaporating them, you know... stuff.

But you did when you started acting like Umar was top shit. Also, when you say shit like King Thor destroying a group of them is debatable like you just did.

You don't agree with anything I say though, except about h1.
And how does King Thor win this IYO? Because you've made it woefully clear you think WB Hulk is far beyond him in power.

Originally posted by carver9
Lets not go to far with this (absolutely).

King Thor absolutely wins.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Scan me then Scan Daddy

That's h1 babble now. Spider-Man level punches can lay them low... but not high herald energy attacks!
That's the logic you're employing. And considering Cyclops was recently shown shredding them, and by shredding I mean almost completely evaporating them, you know... stuff.

But you did when you started acting like Umar was top shit. Also, when you say shit like King Thor destroying a group of them is debatable like you just did.

You don't agree with anything I say though, except about h1.
And how does King Thor win this IYO? Because you've made it woefully clear you think WB Hulk is far beyond him in power.

I will try to find the comicS tonight. It's more than one and I can't believe Bran doesn't know what showing I am referencing (which is one of the reasons Umar is ruling the Dark Dimension instead of him.

I never said they didn't have low showings, but against energy attacks, something that their bodies are made to withstand, they have some insane fts. Of course you would find instances of them not withstanding the pits of help, hut there are other instances, actually MORE instances of them tanking some high level crap. Umar not being able to stop them, you know, planets throwing Umar, is crazy on their parts, especially since this was.referenced in the same comic Hulk melts them. Also, I don't care enough for this battle to employ anything. I just seen some comments that I needed to correct.

I don't think Umar is the top dog but I do know that she is extremely powerful, especially in her current state.

Also, reread my post, I said I can see where someone would/could dispute certain things involving the Mindless Ones versus KT. I'm not one of those peeps but again, they do have some crazy showings when we ignore their lower ones from writters that doesn't know a thing about them.

KT wins by being more powerful than WBH, just like Odin, Umar, Dormammu, and Zeus would beat WBH. Just by being in a completely different tier but his hits will hurt.

Originally posted by carver9
Lets not go to far with this (absolutely). You already agreed he wins. Quit flip flopping.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You already agreed he wins. Quit flip flopping.

Reread my post to you.

Originally posted by carver9
Reread my post to you. So you don't have the courage of your convictions and want to him haw the winner.

You don't have to stand for this!

Get, CARVER PRIME!

Originally posted by carver9
I will try to find the comicS tonight. It's more than one and I can't believe Bran doesn't know what showing I am referencing (which is one of the reasons Umar is ruling the Dark Dimension instead of him.

I never said they didn't have low showings, but against energy attacks, something that their bodies are made to withstand, they have some insane fts. Of course you would find instances of them not withstanding the pits of help, hut there are other instances, actually MORE instances of them tanking some high level crap. Umar not being able to stop them, you know, planets throwing Umar, is crazy on their parts, especially since this was.referenced in the same comic Hulk melts them. Also, I don't care enough for this battle to employ anything. I just seen some comments that I needed to correct.

I don't think Umar is the top dog but I do know that she is extremely powerful, especially in her current state.

Also, reread my post, I said I can see where someone would/could dispute certain things involving the Mindless Ones versus KT. I'm not one of those peeps but again, they do have some crazy showings when we ignore their lower ones from writters that doesn't know a thing about them.

KT wins by being more powerful than WBH, just like Odin, Umar, Dormammu, and Zeus would beat WBH. Just by being in a completely different tier but his hits will hurt. those aren't scans

What insane feats do they have? Lay it on me scan daddy
There you go again using Umar, and planet throwing none the less. Would this be the same planet throwing Umar who when she was throwing planets ended with Thor knocking her out?

You're under handedly saying King Thor can't destroy a group of them by only using Umar. Yes, we should ignore the numerous showings where they got destroyed in favor of the showing where Hulk DESTROYED them. That ****ing works apparently. And then apply other feats, sorry, I mean only like 2 'high' showings to the Hulk ones. Tell me again how a showing from Nova (where they get cracked mind you) means that Hulk >>>> stars though. Also that time Umar was stated not to be able to stop them. INSANE FEATS
With a statement and another statement like that who could see King Thor stopping a group of them?

How is King Thor more powerful though if you could see a dispute between King Thor and a group of Mindless Ones and there being no dispute between Hulk and an army of Mindless Ones? What has King Thor personally done to impress you so? Scans if I may ask

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
those aren't scans

What insane feats do they have? Lay it on me scan daddy
There you go again using Umar, and planet throwing none the less. Would this be the same planet throwing Umar who when she was throwing planets ended with Thor knocking her out?

You're under handedly saying King Thor can't destroy a group of them by only using Umar. Yes, we should ignore the numerous showings where they got destroyed in favor of the showing where Hulk DESTROYED them. That ****ing works apparently. And then apply other feats, sorry, I mean only like 2 'high' showings to the Hulk ones. Tell me again how a showing from Nova (where they get cracked mind you) means that Hulk >>>> stars though. Also that time Umar was stated not to be able to stop them. INSANE FEATS
With a statement and another statement like that who could see King Thor stopping a group of them?

How is King Thor more powerful though if you could see a dispute between King Thor and a group of Mindless Ones and there being no dispute between Hulk and an army of Mindless Ones? What has King Thor personally done to impress you so? Scans if I may ask

Lol...I just don't get it. This seems like a pointless debate when I have already told you KT wins. It's an ongoing, endless, circle and I am sure there is no way I will convince you to side with me. Lets agree to disagree.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...I just don't get it. This seems like a pointless debate when I have already told you KT wins. It's an ongoing, endless, circle and I am sure there is no way I will convince you to side with me. Lets agree to disagree.

That's what I thought when you 'agreed' with me but in actuality disagreed with everything I said.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
That's what I thought when you 'agreed' with me but in actuality disagreed with everything I said.

Lol...I didn't disagree with you, especially when I specifically said "other people" in my posts. Then I said KT would win. What more did I have to say for you to understand that I think KT is more powerful. Then my argument had nothing to do with H1. When I say other people, I wasn't referring to him since he isn't normal, at all. I can't remember the last time I read one of his posts.

All you agreed with me on was h1. And the secret words where I said Thor wins that I secretly made a big deal about. With secret words.

"Whaaaaa, I agreed with your secret words where you said Thor wins. Now here's the rest of your entire post that I don't agree with"

You want to argue about what you agreed with now or are you going to shut up? Because I'll go on and point it out in detail. Tediousness

This depends.

Jurgen's, Oeming's, DeFalco's King Thor would end Hulk, even this incarnation. Trans level beings just have no business facing them imo.

Aaron's Thor isn't as clear cut as he's basically an old version of Thor who can tap into the Odin Power in times of great need instead of it being an all encompassing part of his being like other incarnations based on what I've seen.

Aaron's Thor just seems like a continuation of the same Thor who's had it for a long time. With jokes about how old he is.

I mean the guy pretty much one shot Gorr and knocked him light years away.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Aaron's Thor just seems like a continuation of the same Thor who's had it for a long time. With jokes about how old he is.

I mean the guy pretty much one shot Gorr and knocked him light years away.

Jurgen's Thor had grown to the point where the Odin Force was an all encompassing part of his being similar to Odin. Hulk would try to punch him and get incinerated. This is not the case with Aaron's Thor so far.

Don't get me wrong, Aaron's Thor is definitely beastly. Like you said, he blasted Gorr, used the Odin Force to revive Avengers Thor and sent them back to their time periods so he can definitely use it.

But it seems more like something he has to willingly activate if you know what I mean. This recent issue is a perfect example. He needs Mjolnir to fly and open portals, he can't breathe life into the Earth etc. He's old and weary which Odin only ever was when weakened by the sleep.

Basically, it seems like he's an older Thor who has a bigger energy source to tap into.

But hopefully this will change with his fight in Galactus.

There's a possible explanation that he's just getting back into the swing of things. Also he hasn't tried to revive the Earth. Again, he's also old as shit too, which seems more of a joke than an actual hinderance. Like him saying the Destroyer arm is heavy yet he can throw a planet into a black hole.

Though the flying thing is just odd, and doesn't make sense under any circumstance...

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
All you agreed with me on was h1. And the secret words where I said Thor wins that I secretly made a big deal about. With secret words.

"Whaaaaa, I agreed with your secret words where you said Thor wins. Now here's the rest of your entire post that I don't agree with"

You want to argue about what you agreed with now or are you going to shut up? Because I'll go on and point it out in detail. Tediousness

I agreed with you that Thor wins. I agreed with majority of your post as well. Don't see why we are discussing this tbh. We both agree on the main Topic, Thor wins.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
There's a possible explanation that he's just getting back into the swing of things. Also he hasn't tried to revive the Earth. Again, he's also old as shit too, which seems more of a joke than an actual hinderance. Like him saying the Destroyer arm is heavy yet he can throw a planet into a black hole.

Though the flying thing is just odd, and doesn't make sense under any circumstance...

Possibly. He hasn't used the Odin Force in almost a milennia as it was thought to be forever drained (Not sure how that even makes sense though as its a regenerating power source that empowers the Nine Worlds themselves but whatever). We saw him trying to regrow life in the previous issue.

It it a reoccurring joke but the main idea is that he is old and he is weary. That was made clear in his introduction when he had old but given up and was ready to die.

Aaron's Thor cannot fly with Mjolnir. Which is kind of my point. His King Thor seems to be just Thor unless he taps into the Odin Force or something.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Umar got her shit knocked out by Thor...

And she survived the Mindless Ones getting evaporated pretty effortlessly too. The same Mindless Ones who have been destroyed so many times... sososososo many times. The better feat was the actual notable characters getting killed. But I see nobody really wants to use that because they were never said to overwhelm a SKYFATHER

Destroying canon fodder from a distance, and trying to paint Umar as a legit skyfather isn't the best way to go about it.

Not to mention the funny part about this whole thing is that KT has Odin's powers, and Odin's galaxy destroying fight/multiversal shockwave fight with non direct attacks has been downgraded to being comparable to fluff. But logic you know. It is great. Another note, why do people still argue with h1? If everyone just put him on ignore, this world would be a better place.
Lowball Umar. Good debating tactic.

Mindless ones
1. Overwhelm a skyfather
2. Mine neutron stars
3. Have other good feats

Characters operate at different levels in different comics. Good thing we know what level the mindless ones were operating at in that particular comic.

Umar is a legit skyfather.

KT doesn't get Odin's feats. Just like kryptonians don't get Superman's feats, Brb or Masterson doesn't get Thor's feats, etc. Having the power and knowing how to use it are two different things. Using Odin's highest feats ever while lowballing other characters is a great tactic. Classic lowball highball con game.

Why do you still exist here or haven't got warned for flaming is beyond me.



Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then show it. Show how destroying a planet with the shock waves is billions of times more powerful than stopping time. irrelevant since stopping time wins the fight for Thor. But if he doesn't he loses.

Originally posted by carver9
Don't see why we are discussing this tbh.

Unresolved sexual tension?


Unless you've done it before, then it would be lingering sexual tension.

Originally posted by h1a8

irrelevant since stopping time wins the fight for Thor. But if he doesn't he loses.

http://www.legalcheek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Irrelephant.png


Originally posted by h1a8
WBH feats are far above anything KT has ever done. So your comment is baseless

Originally posted by h1a8
Lowball Umar. Good debating tactic.

Mindless ones
1. Overwhelm a skyfather
2. Mine neutron stars
3. Have other good feats

Characters operate at different levels in different comics. Good thing we know what level the mindless ones were operating at in that particular comic.

Umar is a legit skyfather.

KT doesn't get Odin's feats. Just like kryptonians don't get Superman's feats, Brb or Masterson doesn't get Thor's feats, etc. Having the power and knowing how to use it are two different things. Using Odin's highest feats ever while lowballing other characters is a great tactic. Classic lowball highball con game.

Why do you still exist here or haven't got warned for flaming is beyond me.



irrelevant since stopping time wins the fight for Thor. But if he doesn't he loses. name all Umats skyfather feats

Im pretty sure Umar was pretending when she got "knocked out by Thor"....so that is hardly a knock against her. Moreover bringing up mindless ones other showings , when they were specifically indicated in that comic to be powerful enough in totality to the point Umar wouldnt survive...., is irrelevant. They have vastly divergent showings to an almost comical level. You can only determine the level they were operating at that time based on the contextual evidence presented within the comic.... not completely unrelated incidents....

Anyhow, KT wins. Has a much more varied powerset and would not need to get into a slugfest of any kind with Hulk to beat him.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Im pretty sure Umar was pretending when she got "knocked out by Thor"....so that is hardly a knock against her. Moreover bringing up mindless ones other showings , when they were specifically indicated in that comic to be powerful enough in totality to the point Umar wouldnt survive...., is irrelevant. They have vastly divergent showings to an almost comical level. You can only determine the level they were operating at that time based on the contextual evidence presented within the comic.... not completely unrelated incidents....

Anyhow, KT wins. Has a much more varied powerset and would not need to get into a slugfest of any kind with Hulk

Welcome back?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Welcome back?

lol yeah....for a day or two maybe.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Im pretty sure Umar was pretending when she got "knocked out by Thor"....so that is hardly a knock against her. Moreover bringing up mindless ones other showings , when they were specifically indicated in that comic to be powerful enough in totality to the point Umar wouldnt survive...., is irrelevant. They have vastly divergent showings to an almost comical level. You can only determine the level they were operating at that time based on the contextual evidence presented within the comic.... not completely unrelated incidents....

Anyhow, KT wins. Has a much more varied powerset and would not need to get into a slugfest of any kind with Hulk to beat him.

Good to have you back.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Im pretty sure Umar was pretending when she got "knocked out by Thor"....so that is hardly a knock against her. Moreover bringing up mindless ones other showings , when they were specifically indicated in that comic to be powerful enough in totality to the point Umar wouldnt survive...., is irrelevant. They have vastly divergent showings to an almost comical level. You can only determine the level they were operating at that time based on the contextual evidence presented within the comic.... not completely unrelated incidents....

Anyhow, KT wins. Has a much more varied powerset and would not need to get into a slugfest of any kind with Hulk to beat him. that makes sense.
Bran seems to always use different showings when clearly a character is operating at a specific level in a particular comic. Then he highballs other characters ignoring their low showings.

If KT does anything exotic then he wins. He he goes for melee then he loses.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Im pretty sure Umar was pretending when she got "knocked out by Thor"....so that is hardly a knock against her. Moreover bringing up mindless ones other showings , when they were specifically indicated in that comic to be powerful enough in totality to the point Umar wouldnt survive...., is irrelevant. They have vastly divergent showings to an almost comical level. You can only determine the level they were operating at that time based on the contextual evidence presented within the comic.... not completely unrelated incidents....

Anyhow, KT wins. Has a much more varied powerset and would not need to get into a slugfest of any kind with Hulk to beat him. That's what Jane said, not what Umar said. Even if however, considering she's a Dr Strange foe you don't want to get into her other showings.

What you're proposing is that we base them entirely off of one statement then in that comic. One statement that puts them above Umar, yet Umar survived the same attack without injury. So where do you lead from there? As well, as if we apply the same logic to Umar, she also has no feats in that arc besides surviving...
Like I said before, the Mindless Ones feat is purely canon fodder, mind you it does show scope. The real feat comes from incinerating Arm, and Foom, which for the life of me, I cannot fathom how people haven't made a deal about that... especially considering what Arm did in that arc... it's literally mind boggling how people haven't made a big deal about him incinerating Arm to me.

But looking at it from different angles I guess.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
That's what Jane said, not what Umar said. Even if however, considering she's a Dr Strange foe you don't want to get into her other showings.

What you're proposing is that we base them entirely off of one statement then in that comic. One statement that puts them above Umar, yet Umar survived the same attack without injury. So where do you lead from there? As well, as if we apply the same logic to Umar, she also has no feats in that arc besides surviving...
Like I said before, the Mindless Ones feat is purely canon fodder, mind you it does show scope. The real feat comes from incinerating Arm, and Foom, which for the life of me, I cannot fathom how people haven't made a deal about that... especially considering what Arm did in that arc... it's literally mind boggling how people haven't made a big deal about him incinerating Arm to me.

But looking at it from different angles I guess.

I'm fairly sure the writer intention was to pretty clearly communicate that Umar was pretending...I can double check but I'm pretty sure that the was the crux of that incident. Moreover I'm not suggesting Umar is above KT..at all. She was simply a character that pak used as a reference point to show hulks jump in power.

Basing their power level off of what was indicated in the comic is all that makes sense as they are plot device characters whose power levels vary tremendously. With characters as hugely variable as mindless ones, contextual evidence is key. They have varied between class 100 characters who have been mentioned and shown as being nigh indestructible, to characters that have been able to be killed easily by peak humans. In that comic, they were portrayed in a way that Umar couldn't survive their combined force. That is actually a throwback to their classic days where their combined numbers were threats to even Umar and Dormammu. Any other form of evidence in the form of other showings is automatically inferior and quite frankly irrelevant in determining the power level they were being portrayed at by the writer in that specific comic....since we know that they are ridiculously variable. The same logic does NOT naturally apply to Umar since she is not a plot device character in the same vein as the mindless ones or with the same level of comical variability.

And Umar using a forcefield to survive a single attack that could kill all the mindless ones without injury doesn't present some sort of conundrum. It was made clear in the comic that she wouldn't survive the mindless being released. Surviving a prolonged assault against race of mindless ones =/= surviving one attack from the hulk. If anything what it suggests is that Umar didn't have the firepower to put down the totality of the mindless ones ( which has precedent in regards to some of their previous history against she and Dormmy) in the same vein hulk did prior to their sustained attack putting her down. That's not a knock against hulks feat at all.

The mindless ones feat is one that simply establishes the scale of power that Hulk was intended to be operating at in that arc and gave the writer a chance to directly compare hulks power in that arc with another considerably powerful character that would typically be levels above him: Umar. That comparison is clear as day and is what makes it very impressive. However it does not for instance validate simplistic claims and reasoning such as Hulk>Umar and therefore Hulk>king Thor ..or that KT would be killed by the mindless ones etc..since we would first have to establish that Umar was greater than KT at all for that to have any basis..

I agree that the Arm feat was very impressive also as was the feat in general. Pak did nearly everything to make sure it could stand on its own merit and not need any embellishment to make it sound any more impressive.

That said it still doesn't mean hulk would defeat KT or even come close really

Originally posted by Naija boy
I'm fairly sure the writer intention was to pretty clearly communicate that Umar was pretending...I can double check but I'm pretty sure that the was the crux of that incident. Moreover I'm not suggesting Umar is above KT..at all. She was simply a character that pak used as a reference point to show hulks jump in power.

Basing their power level off of what was indicated in the comic is all that makes sense as they are plot device characters whose power levels vary tremendously. With characters as hugely variable as mindless ones, contextual evidence is key. They have varied between class 100 characters who have been mentioned and shown as being nigh indestructible, to characters that have been able to be killed easily by peak humans. In that comic, they were portrayed in a way that Umar couldn't survive their combined force. That is actually a throwback to their classic days where their combined numbers were threats to even Umar and Dormammu. Any other form of evidence in the form of other showings is automatically inferior and quite frankly irrelevant in determining the power level they were being portrayed at by the writer in that specific comic....since we know that they are ridiculously variable. The same logic does NOT naturally apply to Umar since she is not a plot device character in the same vein as the mindless ones or with the same level of comical variability.

And Umar using a forcefield to survive a single attack that could kill all the mindless ones without injury doesn't present some sort of conundrum. It was made clear in the comic that she wouldn't survive the mindless being released. Surviving a prolonged assault against race of mindless ones =/= surviving one attack from the hulk. If anything what it suggests is that Umar didn't have the firepower to put down the totality of the mindless ones ( which has precedent in regards to some of their previous history against she and Dormmy) in the same vein hulk did prior to their sustained attack putting her down. That's not a knock against hulks feat at all.

The mindless ones feat is one that simply establishes the scale of power that Hulk was intended to be operating at in that arc and gave the writer a chance to directly compare hulks power in that arc with another considerably powerful character that would typically be levels above him: Umar. That comparison is clear as day and is what makes it very impressive. However it does not for instance validate simplistic claims and reasoning such as Hulk>Umar and therefore Hulk>king Thor ..or that KT would be killed by the mindless ones etc..since we would first have to establish that Umar was greater than KT at all for that to have any basis..

I agree that the Arm feat was very impressive also as was the feat in general. Pak did nearly everything to make sure it could stand on its own merit and not need any embellishment to make it sound any more impressive.

That said it still doesn't mean hulk would defeat KT or even come close really Maybe, maybe not. However, her later plan was revealed to be a half truth, not specifically if Jane was right or not.
You might not be, but that's clearly not the intent here. As well if we're harkening back to "silver age", and using statements exclusively, then Umar is equal to Dormammu who is equal to Odin. Which kind of pits her and King Thor on equal terms. Your welcome Carver.

Mindless Ones don't vary in canon though (outside the Invincible one, and I think the Nova ones were changed). They are as much static as Thing is. The only thing that changes is their showings. A more apt comparison would be Rhino.

They are always presented as an overwhelming force though no matter what they're up against.
And speaking of throwbacks, they were repeatedly brought up to be from the Faltine Dimension in Peter Porker's Birthday (where they got smashed again, repeatedly by pretty much every hero there). Which is a throwback to when they overwhelmed the king of that dimension and Dormammu/Umar had to seal them away.

Well, I don't think showings can be inferior to statements, so there's that, nor should we ignore showings in favor of a statement. Plus, after Foom initially got knocked down, he was ragestomping all over everywhere in the presence of the MOs. Also, Hulk beheaded one earlier too, mind you, it's Hulk with an axe, so that's not bad.

She effortlessly tanked an attack that destroyed all of the Mindless Ones there.
Unless the Mindless Ones can output more power than what was displayed there, it's a pretty big mozza ball.

I agree with that reasoning, but again, you and I both know that's not what Carver is thinking when such things are brought up. And the other... being. You aren't defending say, rational fans when you say things like that.

I think people are assuming their durability/power stacked together just because they as an army could take down Umar. You throw enough Iron Mans for example against Odin and they'd eventually win too. It doesn't mean lesser forces can't take down said army if they use a big enough shot.
As well on that note, just because they as a full army could overwhelm Umar, that doesn't mean we get to ignore a large part of their "modern" history in lesser groups. Each individual doesn't suddenly get bumped up in durability or strength just because of a statement. For example, the Annihilation Wave ransacked the universe, but each "individual" was completely unimpressive. Collective effort. Back in the day a single Mindless One was one to wrote your nephew Bok Choy about. But currently they have like what, one good showing for a single Mindless One? All they are is a decent army now.

On it's own, it's a bunch of canon fodder to me. However, add that up with the Ched/planet shredding, and it's a sexy fable. I haven't as much issue with Carver really thinking Hulk beats King Thor, as the main reason him thinking so is just because of the MOs.

I never said Umar was above KT. I even gave KT the win here.

Still waiting on the Hulk side to prove Umar is skyfather lvl

All that's holding you back from outright stating Hulk wins is the fear of ridicule.

Unleash your Hulk Carver, we all know you want to

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
All that's holding you back from outright stating Hulk wins is the fear of ridicule.

Unleash your Hulk Carver, we all know you want to

KT wins just like Zeus, Odin, Mordu, and Dormammu would win against the Hulk. I have no shame in admitting when Hulk is out of his league.

Originally posted by carver9
KT wins just like Zeus, Odin, Mordu, and Dormammu would win against the Hulk. I have no shame in admitting when Hulk is out of his league. How do they win?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
How do they win?

By being more powerful and having more (powerful) abilities to call upon. Why are we discussing this when I think either of them would beat Hulk? Why can't you accept that?

Originally posted by carver9
By being more powerful and having more (powerful) abilities to call upon. Why are we discussing this when I think either of them would beat Hulk? Why can't you accept that? Because you keep defending Hulk at every corner in this thread, and you can't give a real reason why Thor wins. Time stop won't work, Hulk never showed a limit in HOTM, King Thor can't beat Mindless Ones in some people's minds... NOT MINE THOUGH, etc.

And there's you. Who just agree with things to try and avoid a debate. Even though you continue to respond to me. What if I thought Hulk won and I disagree with you thinking King Thor wins, would you go against that?

What if I told you King Thor was a largely physical being who liked to get up close and personal. How would he personally win in an up close and personal fight with Hulk?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Because you keep defending Hulk at every corner in this thread, and you can't give a real reason why Thor wins. Time stop won't work, Hulk never showed a limit in HOTM, King Thor can't beat Mindless Ones in some people's minds... NOT MINE THOUGH, etc.

And there's you. Who just agree with things to try and avoid a debate. Even though you continue to respond to me. What if I thought Hulk won and I disagree with you thinking King Thor wins, would you go against that?

What if I told you King Thor was a largely physical being who liked to get up close and personal. How would he personally win in an up close and personal fight with Hulk?

He doesnt prefer to get up close and personal though, so it doesn't matter.

I also don't avoid debates. I am currently debating against 5 people. You're not giving me a reason to debate against you because we agree on the winner. We have a truce...you just don't want to accoet it.

Also, yes I would go against you if you thought Hulk won.

Originally posted by carver9
He doesnt like to get up close and personal though, so it doesn't matter.

I also don't avoid debates. I am currently debating against 5 people. You're not giving me a reason to debate against you because we agree on the winner. We have a truce...you just don't want to accoet it.

Also, yes I would go against you if you thought Hulk won. lmao you really wimped out there

Originally posted by Insane Titan
lmao you really wimped out there

Naah, this is a pointless debate. If I think KT would win and he also thinks the same, what are we debating on? It's pointless and a waste of energy.

Originally posted by carver9
He doesnt prefer to get up close and personal though, so it doesn't matter.

I also don't avoid debates. I am currently debating against 5 people. You're not giving me a reason to debate against you because we agree on the winner. We have a truce...you just don't want to accoet it.

Also, yes I would go against you if you thought Hulk won. Sure he does. Iron Man fight, Desak fights, Perrikus fight.

You simply start agreeing when you want to stop.

Quote me where I said King Thor wins.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Sure he does. Iron Man fight, Desak fights, Perrikus fight.

You simply start agreeing when you want to stop.

Quote me where I said King Thor wins.

So you think this version of Thor would fist fight WBH?

I agreed with you from the get go.

This isn't the first time this thread was made. This isn't the first time we've had this debate. Yes, you think KT wins.

Originally posted by carver9
So you think this version of Thor would fist fight WBH?

I agreed with you from the get go.

This isn't the first time this thread was made. This isn't the first time we've had this debate. Yes, you think KT wins. I think this version of Thor wouldn't stray far away from Hulk as indicated in his numerous fights.
He attacked Desak straight up, he attacked Iron Man head up. Even the current "wiser" way more experienced King Thor fought Gorr with h2h mixed in.
Judging from pretty much every fight by King Thor, he's been in h2h range.

No you haven't. That's a blatant lie.

Let me take your word on what I didn't say.


Also, what you're currently stating right now is that only the winner matters, not how they win. Why do debates even matter when only stating the victor is enough? How does King Thor win Carver? Stop avoiding the question

I just found out you're a brother, Carver.

Crush this paleface!

Originally posted by carver9
Naah, this is a pointless debate. If I think KT would win and he also thinks the same, what are we debating on? It's pointless and a waste of energy. lol you tell yourself that mate

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I just found out you're a brother, Carver.

Crush this paleface!

Naah, I think he would crush Superboy Prime as well.

@Bran...

We are going.in circles, no need for me to continue.

My point could not have been proven better. Holy shit.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
My point could not have been proven better. Holy shit.



KT wins every time.

He'd win by enduring the necessary punishment he'd receive from a close range fight, and tear him in half with a Desak dropper. /shrug

Or blow his head off with beams far more powerful than the ones he used while he was still a noob with the Odinforce. Or point at him and blow him lightyears away. There ya go Carv

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Maybe, maybe not. However, her later plan was revealed to be a half truth, not specifically if Jane was right or not.
You might not be, but that's clearly not the intent here. As well if we're harkening back to "silver age", and using statements exclusively, then Umar is equal to Dormammu who is equal to Odin. Which kind of pits her and King Thor on equal terms. Your welcome Carver.

Mindless Ones don't vary in canon though (outside the Invincible one, and I think the Nova ones were changed). They are as much static as Thing is. The only thing that changes is their showings. A more apt comparison would be Rhino.

They are always presented as an overwhelming force though no matter what they're up against.
And speaking of throwbacks, they were repeatedly brought up to be from the Faltine Dimension in Peter Porker's Birthday (where they got smashed again, repeatedly by pretty much every hero there). Which is a throwback to when they overwhelmed the king of that dimension and Dormammu/Umar had to seal them away.

Well, I don't think showings can be inferior to statements, so there's that, nor should we ignore showings in favor of a statement. Plus, after Foom initially got knocked down, he was ragestomping all over everywhere in the presence of the MOs. Also, Hulk beheaded one earlier too, mind you, it's Hulk with an axe, so that's not bad.

She effortlessly tanked an attack that destroyed all of the Mindless Ones there.
Unless the Mindless Ones can output more power than what was displayed there, it's a pretty big mozza ball.

I agree with that reasoning, but again, you and I both know that's not what Carver is thinking when such things are brought up. And the other... being. You aren't defending say, rational fans when you say things like that.

I think people are assuming their durability/power stacked together just because they as an army could take down Umar. You throw enough Iron Mans for example against Odin and they'd eventually win too. It doesn't mean lesser forces can't take down said army if they use a big enough shot.
As well on that note, just because they as a full army could overwhelm Umar, that doesn't mean we get to ignore a large part of their "modern" history in lesser groups. Each individual doesn't suddenly get bumped up in durability or strength just because of a statement. For example, the Annihilation Wave ransacked the universe, but each "individual" was completely unimpressive. Collective effort. Back in the day a single Mindless One was one to wrote your nephew Bok Choy about. But currently they have like what, one good showing for a single Mindless One? All they are is a decent army now.

On it's own, it's a bunch of canon fodder to me. However, add that up with the Ched/planet shredding, and it's a sexy fable. I haven't as much issue with Carver really thinking Hulk beats King Thor, as the main reason him thinking so is just because of the MOs.

Mindless Ones do vary in power in canon. All characters do. Otherwise we wouldn't get varied and contradictory showings of power.

Clearly the writer's intention has more weigh than anything since he has FULL artistic license over the characters. Comics are the bible but the writer is the author of the bible.

Anyway, this discussion is moot anyway. KT has no feats of power output BEYOND that of the collision that Hulk survived. Also he has no feats of durability BEYOND the level of power that Hulk showed in that arc.

Hulk basically survived an attack that was BEYOND BILLIONS of times more than a force that could not only shatter a planet but disintegrate countless Savage Hulk peers. What feat of power output KT surpasses that much power output?

Hulk basically supplied half the power of the above feat. What feat of durability does KT have that surpasses that level of power output?

If you or anyone disagree then I welcome you or them to debate it. Support you alls case. Just don't say KT wins without actually knowing the facts at hand. Otherwise, you are bias in your stance.

P.S. Carver you are trying to save face. You may not even know it but you are. Everything you said supports Hulk winning over Thor (from his power output to him resisting Thor's attack and even time stop). You would never see me say someone wins to save face. I'll argue against the entire world if I believe something. I feel people are intimidated by me because my logic is very hard to refute and that in reality they are butthurt knowing the painful truth (they don't like it so they can't accept it).

Originally posted by Damborgson
He'd win by enduring the necessary punishment he'd receive from a close range fight, and tear him in half with a Desak dropper. /shrug

Or blow his head off with beams far more powerful than the ones he used while he was still a noob with the Odinforce. Or point at him and blow him lightyears away. There ya go Carv

KT has no feats of durability to say he can endure the necessary punishment. As a tactic of Bran I would say that we seen CA affect him. But I won't go there.

Anyway KT's feat against Desak or against the shield isn't a tenth of the power WBH endured when he collided. Think about it.

Where in my posts did I say KT doesn't have the power output to drop this version of Hulk? Me saying time stop wouldn't work doesn't mean KT doesn't have other options.

Originally posted by h1a8
KT has no feats of durability to say he can endure the necessary punishment. As a tactic of Bran I would say that we seen CA affect him. But I won't go there.

Anyway KT's feat against Desak or against the shield isn't a tenth of the power WBH endured when he collided. Think about it. Why do you always try and use ABC logic, do you even understand how comics work?

Originally posted by Damborgson
He'd win by enduring the necessary punishment he'd receive from a close range fight, and tear him in half with a Desak dropper. /shrug

Or blow his head off with beams far more powerful than the ones he used while he was still a noob with the Odinforce. Or point at him and blow him lightyears away. There ya go Carv That was apparently impossible for Carver to say though.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
That was apparently impossible for Carver to say though.

Well yeah it's probably hard enough to admit Hulk loses. Now to actually go into detail on how loses is borderline dangerous behavior for him.

Originally posted by h1a8
Think about it.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/014/285/not.jpg

Originally posted by h1a8
I feel people are intimidated by me because my logic is very hard to refute and that in reality they are butthurt knowing the painful truth (they don't like it so they can't accept it).

Not really.

Also, how much energy is required to affect Cap's shield?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Maybe, maybe not. However, her later plan was revealed to be a half truth, not specifically if Jane was right or not.
You might not be, but that's clearly not the intent here. As well if we're harkening back to "silver age", and using statements exclusively, then Umar is equal to Dormammu who is equal to Odin. Which kind of pits her and King Thor on equal terms. Your welcome Carver.
.

I'll double check the Umar incident and get back to you...but regardless I don't believe Umar> KT. Similar in status and within the same overall ballpark as a result but I'd def give KT a win in a forum fight.




They aren't variable in strength in canon all different hulk versions but they are plot device characters and their durability and formidability in showings varies dramatically. It's why contextual evidence indicating their formidability is most relevant and applicable when trying to determine their formidability in a specific incident. Here we know that they were formidable enough in conjunction to overwhelm Umar. How other groups of them fared in other situations automatically less relevant and subservient to the immediate contextual indication of their formidability we were provided with by the writer.




This has little to do with showings vs statements based evidence. This is in context vs out of context evidence when attempting to determine the specific intended level of such highly variable characters during an incident. And in this case specific contextual evidence, whether it be statement or showings, holds more weight than external evidence which speaks to the general power level of the characters as opposed to the level they were being portrayed at in that specific instance. Moreover, I think you misunderstand me in that I'm not trying to establish the power level of one individual mindless one. I'm referring to their combined formidability. Regardless of how durable each one of them on their own might have been, in totality they were powerful enough to overwhelm Umar. Now even within that comic hulk killing just one of them wouldn't really be a big deal, but killing them all.....when their numbers were so great that even Umar couldn't put them all down before dying herself? That is the impressive part because no matter how easy it was to kill one of them, it would take 2x the amount of force to kill 2, 3x the amount of force to kill 3 and an exponentially greater application of force to kill an entire army of them operating in sufficient numbers to put down Umar in her own realm.



Not really. She tanked an attack that was able to disintegrate the totality of the mindless ones which is something she couldn't do . The direct logical implication of that is that she did not have the ability to output the same level of force that Hulk did in that single burst prior to being killed by the mindless ones. Thats not a knock on Hulk at all and only re-enforces the writers direct comparison between Hulk and Umar. The second implication is that the army of countless mindless ones could in a sustained combined assault exceed the output of force produced by hulk ( or actually the backwash from hulks attack)in that single burst. That once again is not some logically incoherent idea and is certainly feasible given the sustained nature of their combined attack versus the singular nature of Hulks.



I dont deny that....but them again I think that when it comes to Hulk in general you have extremist views on both sides. For every Carver or H1 ( who mind you isn't really a hulk fan I don't think) you have similarly vociferous anti-hulk people on the opposite side of the spectrum. I'd prefer to just take the feat for what it is irrespective of the silliness.



The issue isn't their durability stacking....it's that with the addition of every new mindless one Hulk needs to apply a multiplicatively greater amount of force to achieve the same result. It's true that if you send enough iron men at Odin they'd eventually win despite Odin being able to oneshot Iron man under normal circumstances. That said, Odin would not be able to utilize the same amount of force necessary to kill one Iron man, to kill the aforementioned army of them. That's because with the addition of each Iron man, the total mass that the force would be acting upon would increase and hence the force per unit mass acting on each ironman would reduce...despite them all having same durability. That's another reason why their modern history in lesser groups is not relevant here as establishing their individual formidability is not necessary. Their strength in totality in that specific incident is all that is relevant ......and that is indicated in that specific incident.

The mindless ones feat certainly adds to the impressiveness of the total
feat. It doesn't need to be embellished on either side and can stand alone for what it is....a good way for the writer to indicate Hulks power jump by using a previous foe as a reference point. It certainly doesn't establish Hulk>>KT or that mindless ones >>>KT . On the other hand it isn't nothing and certainly reinforces the huge powerup that took place in HOTM.

Originally posted by Naija boy
I'll double check the Umar incident and get back to you...but regardless I don't believe Umar> KT. Similar in status and within the same overall ballpark as a result but I'd def give KT a win in a forum fight. But that's the issue with exclusively using all sorts of ABC logic with statements to come to a conclusion. You can conceivably put her above King Thor using statements. And the people using that feat exclusively are using it in those terms. WBH > Skyfather = King Thor.

However, her actual showings lack to say the least. And I'd go so far to say King Thor would nigh annihilate her in an actual fight either in comics, or on the forum.




Originally posted by Naija boy
They aren't variable in strength in canon all different hulk versions but they are plot device characters and their durability and formidability in showings varies dramatically. It's why contextual evidence indicating their formidability is most relevant and applicable when trying to determine their formidability in a specific incident. Here we know that they were formidable enough in conjunction to overwhelm Umar. How other groups of them fared in other situations automatically less relevant and subservient to the immediate contextual indication of their formidability we were provided with by the writer. Which creates a problem when you're using that as a baseline for your argument. Why does this showing suddenly matter for them when all they do is have a statement to their name and they get annihilated? It's pretty beastly cherry picking.
Also, in terms of showings, they are never "weaker" canonically. They operate on a Rhino wavelength.

And them being formidable in that amount of numbers doesn't override lesser showings either considering it goes against nothing at all. Maybe if their durability was spoken highly off, maybe if their strength was spoken highly of, but no, it was just a broad statement about Umar vs that many of them.




Originally posted by Naija boy
This has little to do with showings vs statements based evidence. This is in context vs out of context evidence when attempting to determine the specific intended level of such highly variable characters during an incident. And in this case specific contextual evidence, whether it be statement or showings, holds more weight than external evidence which speaks to the general power level of the characters as opposed to the level they were being portrayed at in that specific instance. Moreover, I think you misunderstand me in that I'm not trying to establish the power level of one individual mindless one. I'm referring to their combined formidability. Regardless of how durable each one of them on their own might have been, in totality they were powerful enough to overwhelm Umar. Now even within that comic hulk killing just one of them wouldn't really be a big deal, but killing them all.....when their numbers were so great that even Umar couldn't put them all down before dying herself? That is the impressive part because no matter how easy it was to kill one of them, it would take 2x the amount of force to kill 2, 3x the amount of force to kill 3 and an exponentially greater application of force to kill an entire army of them operating in sufficient numbers to put down Umar in her own realm. But that "contextual" evidence in no way invalidates previous showings... like at all. They are ALWAYS an overwhelming force, and are always presented as something that will eventually overcome. Just like they were in HOTM. However, they have like no showings in that scene, so I fail to see how we can simply overrule previous showings, again based on a statement. It doesn't add up.

That's what you yourself are saying, yes, but if you're saying that, that against wouldn't allow us to disregard previous showings. It would only mean that farther explanation is needed.

Also, 1000 times Thing's punches


Originally posted by Naija boy
Not really. She tanked an attack that was able to disintegrate the totality of the mindless ones which is something she couldn't do . The direct logical implication of that is that she did not have the ability to output the same level of force that Hulk did in that single burst prior to being killed by the mindless ones. Thats not a knock on Hulk at all and only re-enforces the writers direct comparison between Hulk and Umar. The second implication is that the army of countless mindless ones could in a sustained combined assault exceed the output of force produced by hulk ( or actually the backwash from hulks attack)in that single burst. That once again is not some logically incoherent idea and is certainly feasible given the sustained nature of their combined attack versus the singular nature of Hulks. I realize that's the implication given, but again, how are they supposed to overwhelm that shield? That type of force seems above what some mindless drones are capable of (especially when it also destroys the planet). As well as her casually restoring the shield between realms.

And when specifically talking about "surviving", those shields seem quite relevant. It'd take them awhile to say the least to get through that.

Her casually tanking an attack that wipes out the whole race seems pretty meh when contrasting the two to say the least. Especially when she presumably also tanked the ensuing batte too. Just seems a little odd to throw in there.


Originally posted by Naija boy
I dont deny that....but them again I think that when it comes to Hulk in general you have extremist views on both sides. For every Carver or H1 ( who mind you isn't really a hulk fan I don't think) you have similarly vociferous anti-hulk people on the opposite side of the spectrum. I'd prefer to just take the feat for what it is irrespective of the silliness. I don't think you can get more extremist views unless you become those people.

Originally posted by Naija boy
The issue isn't their durability stacking....it's that with the addition of every new mindless one Hulk needs to apply a multiplicatively greater amount of force to achieve the same result. It's true that if you send enough iron men at Odin they'd eventually win despite Odin being able to oneshot Iron man under normal circumstances. That said, Odin would not be able to utilize the same amount of force necessary to kill one Iron man, to kill the aforementioned army of them. That's because with the addition of each Iron man, the total mass that the force would be acting upon would increase and hence the force per unit mass acting on each ironman would reduce...despite them all having same durability. That's another reason why their modern history in lesser groups is not relevant here as establishing their individual formidability is not necessary. Their strength in totality in that specific incident is all that is relevant ......and that is indicated in that specific incident.

The mindless ones feat certainly adds to the impressiveness of the total
feat. It doesn't need to be embellished on either side and can stand alone for what it is....a good way for the writer to indicate Hulks power jump by using a previous foe as a reference point. It certainly doesn't establish Hulk>>KT or that mindless ones >>>KT . On the other hand it isn't nothing and certainly reinforces the huge powerup that took place in HOTM. Here's a thought, but let's say destroying Arm is the absolute limit of his power. OK, now that force would undoubtedly shred your Mindless One in a tiny blast. But if you apply that same force and spread it over an entire planet, how much force would be lost in such a rather small area (in comparison) as the area the critters were contained in?
It was an all encompassing blast capable of destroying a planet. Not much force is going to dissipate in the area they were in. They were the equivalent of ground zero in that attack. I could see if they were all lined up in a row, and it was a handblast, but it was a potent "nuke" for lack of a better term. It's not all focused, it just went everywhere. If it could have just destroyed one Mindless One barely on one side of the blast, it would have also just barely destroyed a Mindless One on the other side. Though that brings questions of how much force exactly would be contained within a focused blast instead of one that goes everywhere, but that's not what we're discussing.
Mind you I don't necessarily disagree with it possibly being a couple thousand notches above what it takes to destroy a single one considering what it takes to destroy a single one nowadays. The rest of his feat helps prove that, but I don't agree with what you're saying in that instance to reach that conclusion.

Honestly, no matter how much Mindless Ones there were, and I hate to say it, but I think destroying the planet is more impressive. However, even with thinking they were canon fodder, I do think it was impressive (not on the level some are pegging it as however) And I truly think the feat needs to be looked at as a whole instead of specific instances with questionable characters who are known to job.

For instance, I don't think destroying a Mindless One army puts him anywhere near King Thor. Like, I don't believe it's even worthy of being brought up considering what a joke they are... even contextually. However, you add in the Arm feat, the planet, the Foom, and the two Savage Hulks in Wendigo and Bi Beast... and it being a shockwave from a punch, and you have an interesting conundrum with where to place him in regards to some characters. I think this fight is honestly a lot closer than some would care to think on both sides. I don't have a problem with anything thinking one side wins, I have a problem with the Mindless Ones (mostly) being brought up to change the tide, or to bring forth some question out of it.
Call it nitpicking if you will, but I have a gripe about that feat specifically, not so much the feat as a whole since I can't deny the impressiveness of it.

Odin rapes WBH though.