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Which combatant can achieve a victory that is beyond their power to do so? Each combatant gets 100% info on their enemy before the battle. Can they win? No outside items can be brought to the table. They can only use the items/powers they already have at their disposal.

Wonderman/Bleeding edge Ironman vs DOS Doomsday
Magneto vs Amazo with JLA powers (no Flash)
Spiderman vs Beast Boy
Superboy vs Thor
Cyclops/Emma/Colossus vs The general
Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thanos
Darkseid vs Galactus
Captain America vs Squirrel girl

Who can achieve the victory in their battles without resorting to bfr?

Originally posted by carver9
Which combatant can achieve a victory that is beyond their power to do so? Each combatant gets 100% info on their enemy before the battle. Can they win? No outside items can be brought to the table. They can only use the items/powers they already have at their disposal.

Wonderman/Bleeding edge Ironman vs DOS Doomsday
Magneto vs Amazo with JLA powers (no Flash)
Spiderman vs Beast Boy
Superboy vs Thor
Cyclops/Emma/Colossus vs The general
Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thanos
Darkseid vs Galactus
Captain America vs Squirrel girl

Who can achieve the victory in their battles without resorting to bfr?

Wonder woman and Iron Man
Amazo
Beast Boy
Thor
The General
Thanos
Galactus
Squirrel girl

Remember, the ones that are on the left, the disadvantage group, all of them gets full knowledge of the people they are fighting against.

I assume these are current characters, Carver?

Originally posted by carver9
Which combatant can achieve a victory that is beyond their power to do so? Each combatant gets 100% info on their enemy before the battle. Can they win? No outside items can be brought to the table. They can only use the items/powers they already have at their disposal.

Wonderman/Bleeding edge Ironman vs DOS Doomsday
Magneto vs Amazo with JLA powers (no Flash)
Spiderman vs Beast Boy
Superboy vs Thor
Cyclops/Emma/Colossus vs The general
Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thanos
Darkseid vs Galactus
Captain America vs Squirrel girl

Who can achieve the victory in their battles without resorting to bfr?
1) Doomsday MURDERS them
2) Amazo destroys him
3) Beast Boy all day every day
4) Thor wins every time
5) don't know
6) LOL, Thanos
7) Galactus
8) America Force > Squirrel Force

Originally posted by carver9
Which combatant can achieve a victory that is beyond their power to do so? Each combatant gets 100% info on their enemy before the battle. Can they win? No outside items can be brought to the table. They can only use the items/powers they already have at their disposal.

Wonderman/Bleeding edge Ironman vs DOS Doomsday
Magneto vs Amazo with JLA powers (no Flash)
Spiderman vs Beast Boy
Superboy vs Thor
Cyclops/Emma/Colossus vs The general
Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thanos
Darkseid vs Galactus
Captain America vs Squirrel girl

Who can achieve the victory in their battles without resorting to bfr?

1. Depends if you think nanites can work against Doomsday.
2. Amazo
3. Spiderman
4. Cyclops/Emma/Colossus
5. Depending on iterations, either WW with her lasso/Superman with his strength, or Thanos if current levels.
6. Darkseid. Potentially by sacrificing Apokolips if desperate enough, in some gambit which poisons Galactus. Depends what you mean by victory, too.
7. No prep/info saves Cap.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I assume these are current characters, Carver?

Pre reboot DC characters. Magneto fully powered, but yeah, current characters.

Every one on the left loses handily.

The best odds are for Magneto and Wonderman/Iron Man, but they still are unable to pull out a win. In a very far third it's WW/Kal vs Thanos.

Originally posted by Bentley
Every one on the left loses handily.

The best odds are for Magneto and Wonderman/Iron Man, but they still are unable to pull out a win. In a very far third it's WW/Kal vs Thanos.

Really?

Wouldn't Amazo be too powerful for Mags, especially once he gains magnetism powers of his own?

I said Amazo has the JLA powers which means he can not gain access to Magneto abilities. I should have been more clear in my post.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Really?

Wouldn't Amazo be too powerful for Mags, especially once he gains magnetism powers of his own?

Amazo still beats Magneto, but the JLA has had troubles with a villain with Mags powerset before.

There is also the fact that Magneto > Batmobile.

Originally posted by Bentley
Amazo still beats Magneto, but the JLA has had troubles with a villain with Mags powerset before.

There is also the fact that Magneto > Batmobile.


True.

Depends on if you subscribe to the notion that as a villain, Amazo stacking powers (and none of their weaknesses) would be as easy as the JLA were with Polaris.

I guess he still has WW's reflexes, Superman's speed etc?

Can't Mags just EMP Amazo and auto win?

Depends. He could gain an equal mastery of the EM spectrum after looking at Mags.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

could gain an equal mastery of the EM spectrum after looking at Mags.


I don't think Amazo's learning curve is quite that fast.

Perhaps you are referring to some version I am not familiar with?

There have been several.

The version I'm thinking of is Dwayne McDuffie's.
McDuffie's Amazo had all the JLA powers, but there's some debate as to whether they actually "stacked" per se or if McDAmazo was just able to use the JLA powers alternately, in succession, and switch to the powers he needed very, very, fast.

MacAmazo was also apparently NOT able to gain mastery of his powers to the extent their original owners possessed.

Recall that Flash was able to save the lives of his teammates by using some form of superspeed steal to slow MacAmazo to a manageable, combat-able rate:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2rz2exc.jpg
http://oi59.tinypic.com/2llj4tc.jpg

http://oi57.tinypic.com/9ie4bt.jpg
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This version of Amazo also seemed to have some trouble in deciding what to use when, as if the stress of assimilating JLA powers and knowledge while battling the JLA (along with the physical damage they were dealing him, of course), was causing glitches in his programming.

Perhaps the most glaring example?

MacAmazo versus Black Canary.

His voiceover suggests he actually tried to use "superhearing" to counteract her scream, which, if anything made it worse, magnifying the sound ... and blowing his head off.


http://oi59.tinypic.com/szfq68.jpg



Now, anyone who actually read McDuffie's story, which was Justice League of America volume 2 #s 23 and 24, will recall Amazo was able to reform, presumably thanks to Flash's powers.

I don't think he'd be able to do that against Magneto.

Unlike the JLA, Magneto has the demonstrated ability to break metal components down to the molecular, and even atomic levels.
He's also been able to do the reverse.

Recall the following from Marvel Comics Secret Wars I, way back in the early to mid 1980s:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/169n494.jpg

This suggests to me that Magneto would have no trouble breaking down Amazo as completely as necessity demands.

And that was 30 years ago.

More recently, to get, perhaps, a better gauge of the power Magneto can actually tap into when the need arises:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14022738
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14022797
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14022745
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14022748
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14319466
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14319475




So we have it shown that Amazo with JLA powers apparently:

-- does not use powers as proficiently and in their full scope as well as the original wielders of said powers
-- can be damaged by metal objects flying into him at high velocity
-- has trouble utilizing his power set intelligently when sufficiently stressed
-- can be destroyed by the force generated by mere sound vibrations (Canary's Canary cry)


... while Magneto

-- can destabilize compounds with CERTAINTY, down to the molecular level
(Read X-Men ... 25 is it? Where he pulls the adamantium right out of Wolverine's body), arguably the atomic level
-- can create material seemingly out of thin air by literally fusing ATOMS,
(as he did when he created a comb for Janet in Secret Wars, as shown above)
-- has shields which, as long ago as the 1980s, could withstand the physical force of She-Hulk AND Thor battering them with little notice while allowing him to accomplish other tasks ...



Well, there's more of a list to make.
But I'm out of time for today. My takeaway is, sans Flash's powers
(which would give Amazo the win)
Magneto versus Amazo limited to JLA powers, as exhibited in McDuffie's mini-arc, at least

... is a win for Magneto.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I don't think Amazo's learning curve is quite that fast.

Perhaps you are referring to some version I am not familiar with?

There have been several.

The version I'm thinking of is Dwayne McDuffie's.
McDuffie's Amazo had all the JLA powers, but there's some debate as to whether they actually "stacked" per se or if McDAmazo was just able to use the JLA powers alternately, in succession, and switch to the powers he needed very, very, fast.

MacAmazo was also apparently NOT able to gain mastery of his powers to the extent their original owners possessed.

Recall that Flash was able to save the lives of his teammates by using some form of superspeed steal to slow MacAmazo to a manageable, combat-able rate:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2rz2exc.jpg
http://oi59.tinypic.com/2llj4tc.jpg

http://oi57.tinypic.com/9ie4bt.jpg
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This version of Amazo also seemed to have some trouble in deciding what to use when, as if the stress of assimilating JLA powers and knowledge while battling the JLA (along with the physical damage they were dealing him, of course), was causing glitches in his programming.

Perhaps the most glaring example?

MacAmazo versus Black Canary.

His voiceover suggests he actually tried to use "superhearing" to counteract her scream, which, if anything made it worse, magnifying the sound ... and blowing his head off.


http://oi59.tinypic.com/szfq68.jpg



Now, anyone who actually read McDuffie's story, which was Justice League of America volume 2 #s 23 and 24, will recall Amazo was able to reform, presumably thanks to Flash's powers.

I don't think he'd be able to do that against Magneto.

Unlike the JLA, Magneto has the demonstrated ability to break metal components down to the molecular, and even atomic levels.
He's also been able to do the reverse.

Recall the following from Marvel Comics Secret Wars I, way back in the early to mid 1980s:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/169n494.jpg

This suggests to me that Magneto would have no trouble breaking down Amazo as completely as necessity demands.

And that was 30 years ago.

More recently, to get, perhaps, a better gauge of the power Magneto can actually tap into when the need arises:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14022738
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14022797
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14022745
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14022748
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14319466
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14319475




So we have it shown that Amazo with JLA powers apparently:

-- does not use powers as proficiently and in their full scope as well as the original wielders of said powers
-- can be damaged by metal objects flying into him at high velocity
-- has trouble utilizing his power set intelligently when sufficiently stressed
-- can be destroyed by the force generated by mere sound vibrations (Canary's Canary cry)


... while Magneto

-- can destabilize compounds with CERTAINTY, down to the molecular level
(Read X-Men ... 25 is it? Where he pulls the adamantium right out of Wolverine's body), arguably the atomic level
-- can create material seemingly out of thin air by literally fusing ATOMS,
(as he did when he created a comb for Janet in Secret Wars, as shown above)
-- has shields which, as long ago as the 1980s, could withstand the physical force of She-Hulk AND Thor battering them with little notice while allowing him to accomplish other tasks ...



Well, there's more of a list to make.
But I'm out of time for today. My takeaway is, sans Flash's powers
(which would give Amazo the win)
Magneto versus Amazo limited to JLA powers, as exhibited in McDuffie's mini-arc, at least

... is a win for Magneto.

He can still have Superman's super intelligence, speed of thought, and WW's reflexes.

Also, he can adapt on a conceptual level.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/145371/3061634-0176553029-amazo.jpg

Magneto. Amazo is a robot/ android he tears him apart from the start.

Anybody who thinks Magneto can tear apart someone with combined durability of Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter along with a power ring is out of their ****ing minds.Originally posted by Bentley
Amazo still beats Magneto, but the JLA has had troubles with a villain with Mags powerset before.

There is also the fact that Magneto > Batmobile.
That Polaris was boosted by absorbing the south pole and JLA acted like complete idiots because Chuck Dixon had a hard on for Polaris and Plastic Man. Magneto doesn't has that going on here.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Anybody who thinks Magneto can tear apart someone with combined durability of Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter along with a power ring is out of their ****ing minds.
That Polaris was boosted by absorbing the south pole and JLA acted like complete idiots because Chuck Dixon had a hard on for Polaris and Plastic Man. Magneto doesn't has that going on here.

He cnt have their durabliity he is aAndroid made of metal and steel etc. there for he will be ripped apart no matter what. He is not living tissue giving durabliity no real point

Originally posted by abhilegend
Anybody who thinks Magneto can tear apart someone with combined durability of Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter along with a power ring is out of their ****ing minds.
That Polaris was boosted by absorbing the south pole and JLA acted like complete idiots because Chuck Dixon had a hard on for Polaris and Plastic Man. Magneto doesn't has that going on here.

Amazo should be way more impressive than he actually is, he's an accomplished jobber and that's something that gives Mags an stadistical chance. I did say Amazo does him in though.

Originally posted by Shabazz916
He cnt have their durabliity he is aAndroid made of metal and steel etc. there for he will be ripped apart no matter what. He is not living tissue giving durabliity no real point
He gets all the abilities of the characters he absorbs power from. Its like you don't even know about the character.Originally posted by Bentley
Amazo should be way more impressive than he actually is, he's an accomplished jobber and that's something that gives Mags an stadistical chance. I did say Amazo does him in though.
Jobber? Beating him often requires plot devices, he has rare straight up losses and those have contexts too.

Superman and Wonder Woman have the best chance at victory.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He gets all the abilities of the characters he absorbs power from. Its like you don't even know about the character.
Jobber? Beating him often requires plot devices, he has rare straight up losses and those have contexts too.

So we are all in agreement that Flash can stab through and kill someone with the combined durability of Superman, Wonder Woman, etc?

https://imageshack.com/i/6samazo3ll5j

Originally posted by carver9
So we are all in agreement that Flash can stab through and kill someone with the combined durability of Superman, Wonder Woman, etc?

https://imageshack.com/i/6samazo3ll5j
Under Mcduffie, Amazo needed conscious effort to activate his powers so no. Hal blasted a hole in his torso, Canary destroyed his head and you're being silly again.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Under Mcduffie, Amazo needed conscious effort to activate his powers so no. Hal blasted a hole in his torso, Canary destroyed his head and you're being silly again.

That's the latest version of Amazo. We go by what happened during his later showings.

Originally posted by carver9
That's the latest version of Amazo. We go by what happened during his later showings.
No, the version appearing in Action Comics 850 was after that. Superman knocked it out with some assistance from Aquaman.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, the version appearing in Action Comics 850 was after that. Superman knocked it out with some assistance from Aquaman.



Scans.

Pulling off the impossible is one of Spider-man's powers.
He feeds BB a web-cartridge FTW.

Originally posted by abhilegend
assistance from Aquaman.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Jobber? Beating him often requires plot devices, he has rare straight up losses and those have contexts too.

Batmoviles and Black Adam decapitation can be considered jobbing as far as I know.

Batmobile has more firepower than a Death Star.

Originally posted by carver9
Which combatant can achieve a victory that is beyond their power to do so? Each combatant gets 100% info on their enemy before the battle. Can they win? No outside items can be brought to the table. They can only use the items/powers they already have at their disposal.

Wonderman/Bleeding edge Ironman vs DOS Doomsday
Magneto vs Amazo with JLA powers (no Flash)
Spiderman vs Beast Boy
Superboy vs Thor
Cyclops/Emma/Colossus vs The general
Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thanos
Darkseid vs Galactus
Captain America vs Squirrel girl

Who can achieve the victory in their battles without resorting to bfr?

DD wins everytime
Mags could win if it wasn't for intangibility
Spider-man wins
Superboy could win if he uses speed
The only chance is if Emma can mindrape him
Superman alone can beat Thanos (he's stronger, far faster, can become intangible at times, has slowdown freeze breath, etc.)
Galactus wins everytime (unless this is the most powerful version of DS)
Squirrel Girl wins everytime.

Originally posted by Shabazz916
He cnt have their durabliity he is aAndroid made of metal and steel etc. there for he will be ripped apart no matter what. He is not living tissue giving durabliity no real point

Originally posted by carver9
Scans.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Actually it looked like none of their attacks connected save Superman's.

http://i.imgur.com/BQBfVzC.jpg

The art is pretty ambiguous though. It looked like Superman alone punched out Amazo.

Originally posted by Bentley
Batmoviles and Black Adam decapitation can be considered jobbing as far as I know.
Faulty prototypes. It was stated in Secret Six that Society was using faulty amazos.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Faulty prototypes. It was stated in Secret Six that Society was using faulty amazos.

People never bring up such context when bringing those up, if you have the scans (I believe you, you can send it to me by PM when you get the time) I'd appreciate them.

Originally posted by Bentley
People never bring up such context when bringing those up, if you have the scans (I believe you, you can send it to me by PM when you get the time) I'd appreciate them.
I'll send them to you. Its a pain in the ass to find the scan in the mess that was Infinite Crisis.

Thanks man, and I agree that Infinite Crisis was all over the place.

I love how Manjobber is the only one who doesn't do anything.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I love how Manjobber is the only one who doesn't do anything.


Even taking in account Hal+Arthur+Barry, that's a ridiculous feat for Superman to knock Amazo out in one hit.

Also here it is stated to be a STRIPPED down prototype in Batman's case.

http://i.imgur.com/5ONBK0M.jpg

It only seemed to have Superman's HV, flight and nothing more. A plastic explosive blew off its leg and eyes FFS.

In your scan ABHI, it look like Batman and Superman punched him and Flash kicked him.

Originally posted by carver9
In your scan ABHI, it look like Batman and Superman punched him and Flash kicked him.

Also, Aquaman. Not to mention GL's fisting.

Bruce just HAD to get in there....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, Aquaman. Not to mention GL's fisting.

Bruce just HAD to get in there....

I didn't even see those two and Superman even confirms it by say "Justice League...together".

Originally posted by carver9
I didn't even see those two and Superman even confirms it by say "Justice League...together".

And maybe a whiplash from WW?

Basically, everyone except Martian Manjobber.

"But I was telepathically coordi-"
"Shut up, J'onn. Kal shouted it out, we don't need you."

Originally posted by carver9
In your scan ABHI, it look like Batman and Superman punched him and Flash kicked him.
Yeah because adding Batman makes all the difference.



Not to mention only Superman drew blood, its clear who had the most part in knocking him out.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, Aquaman. Not to mention GL's fisting.

Bruce just HAD to get in there....

I already mentioned them.
Originally posted by abhilegend


Even taking in account Hal+Arthur+Barry, that's a ridiculous feat for Superman to knock Amazo out in one hit.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And maybe a whiplash from WW?

Basically, everyone except Martian Manjobber.

"But I was telepathically coordi-"
"Shut up, J'onn. Kal shouted it out, we don't need you."
Nope, WW sucks.

Originally posted by carver9
In your scan ABHI, it look like Batman and Superman punched him and Flash kicked him.

Everybody decided to act sans Manjobber.

Artist/writer just got lazy and decided to show it all on the same page, which looks lame.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Everybody decided to act sans Manjobber.

Artist/writer just got lazy and decided to show it all on the same page, which looks lame.
Which seems ridiculous when you look who the writers are, Kurt Busiek, Geoff Johns and Fabian Nicieza and Reneto Guedes as artist.

Originally posted by carver9
In your scan ABHI, it look like Batman and Superman punched him and Flash kicked him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah because adding Batman makes all the difference.

For me this is how a debate between Carver and Abhi normally goes

Edit: Sh_t, I wrote Carter by accident, edited now.