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Superman-Pre-boot

VS

Thanos- Current/Classic

Who is stronger?

Thanos, easily.

Superman with extreme ease.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Superman with extreme ease. Based on ?

Simple answer to this question. Space Cheese Fts, Superman wins. Battle fts, Thanos wins. It's up to the person to choose which is important. Example...Colossus lifting fts are superior to Darkseid. It actually piss on anything Darkseid has done lifting wise but Darkseid battle fts are far superior. If you can accept Superman as being stronger than Thanos based off lifting fts (something that Thanos finds boring to take the effort of doing) then you also have to accept Colossus being stronger than Darkseid (and Darkseid doesn't waste the effort of lifting anything since, well, he doesn't have too). With that said...please continue.

Originally posted by carver9
Simple answer to this question. Space Cheese Fts, Superman wins. Battle fts, Thanos wins. It's up to the person to choose which is important. Example...Colossus lifting fts are superior to Darkseid. It actually piss on anything Darkseid has done lifting wise but Darkseid battle fts are far superior. If you can accept Superman as being stronger than Thanos based off lifting fts (something that Thanos finds boring to take the effort of doing) then you also have to accept Colossus being stronger than Darkseid (and Darkseid doesn't waste the effort of lifting anything since, well, he doesn't have too). With that said...please continue. lifting feats aren't the only type of feats that prove strength. Striking feats, pushing feats, etc. prove strength. WBH feat proves strength and he didn't lift a thing.

Superman is stronger though.

God this is stupid

Superman

Who made this thread?


Oh, it's LordOfPoopface. sneer

Originally posted by Badabing
Who made this thread?


Oh, it's my hero, LordOfRaptors. sneer

You are wise to acknowledge your superior!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
You are wise to acknowledge your superior! Originally posted by Digi


the f--- is going on. LoB is like the angry little dog that demands a fight wherever it goes. Or rather, barks a lot and not much else.

Originally posted by carver9
Simple answer to this question. Space Cheese Fts, Superman wins. Battle fts, Thanos wins. It's up to the person to choose which is important. Example...Colossus lifting fts are superior to Darkseid. It actually piss on anything Darkseid has done lifting wise but Darkseid battle fts are far superior. If you can accept Superman as being stronger than Thanos based off lifting fts (something that Thanos finds boring to take the effort of doing) then you also have to accept Colossus being stronger than Darkseid (and Darkseid doesn't waste the effort of lifting anything since, well, he doesn't have too). With that said...please continue.

Spacing muther ****a! Do you know it?

Seriously man, spacing.

Originally posted by carver9
Simple answer to this question. Space Cheese Fts, Superman wins. Battle fts, Thanos wins. It's up to the person to choose which is important. Example...Colossus lifting fts are superior to Darkseid. It actually piss on anything Darkseid has done lifting wise but Darkseid battle fts are far superior. If you can accept Superman as being stronger than Thanos based off lifting fts (something that Thanos finds boring to take the effort of doing) then you also have to accept Colossus being stronger than Darkseid (and Darkseid doesn't waste the effort of lifting anything since, well, he doesn't have too). With that said...please continue.
You know what? Superman can match almost any strength feat Thanos has, in terms of combat feats of course.

Originally posted by SquallX
Spacing muther ****a! Do you know it?

Seriously man, spacing.

Lol...I typed all of that up with my phone.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You know what? Superman can match almost any strength feat Thanos has, in terms of combat feats of course. No, he can't. He's just a peer to Cap. Marvel in terms of strength.

Thanos!!

Oh wait this is not a fight..
Nevermind I dont know then..

Anybody want to show me some of Thanos' strength feats?

Thanos fighting Squirrel girl.

Originally posted by carver9
Thanos fighting Squirrel girl.
He had a cosmic cube powering him up.

I concede.

Originally posted by carver9
I concede.
Good, good.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Anybody want to show me some of Thanos' strength feats?

Thanos is a lot stronger than Marvel.

Originally posted by carver9
I concede.

I was going to close this for the sheer idiocy on both sides, but I saw Bada was here... He'll totally do his modding job...

Superman is in the same class as CM, Thor and BA. Thanos is stronger than all of them.

Originally posted by JBL
Superman is in the same class as CM, Thor and BA. Thanos is stronger than all of them.

Agreed, if you're talking about an average Superman, and not an amplified solar charged Superman. There is a difference. Like it or not, Superman transcends the Herald range when charged up to a certain extent.

Originally posted by Stoic
Agreed, if you're talking about an average Superman, and not an amplified solar charged Superman. There is a difference. Like it or not, Superman transcends the Herald range when charged up to a certain extent. True.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
God this is stupid

Originally posted by JBL
Superman is in the same class as CM, Thor and BA. Thanos is stronger than all of them. Thanos feats are inferior to Superman's. So how can he be stronger?

By feats, Superman, by logic Superman. Thanos is outmatched here.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I was going to close this for the sheer idiocy on both sides, but I saw Bada was here... He'll totally do his modding job...



.........

We all know that Thanos doesn't have the strength feats on panel like Superman does, but I could never see Superman doing something like this.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g60/Opurum/ThanosHulkThing2.gif

Originally posted by abhilegend
You know what? Superman can match almost any strength feat Thanos has, in terms of combat feats of course.
Superman can match any strength feat in Marvel as far as I'm aware.

Thanos doesnt have too many strength feats but come on. he pimp slaps hulk thor and thing like they were feebs all the time. he held odin's trident with 1 arm and odin couldnt get it free with both of his hands. Thanos is on a whole different level of strength.

Thanos

Superman probably.

Originally posted by tkitna
We all know that Thanos doesn't have the strength feats on panel like Superman does, but I could never see Superman doing something like this.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g60/Opurum/ThanosHulkThing2.gif
Oh really?

http://i.imgur.com/f5LvqHE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zjQhHWI.jpg

Wasn't Superman amped during that scene?

Originally posted by carver9
Wasn't Superman amped during that scene?
Nope.

I thought he was but if not, great showing for him.

Originally posted by carver9
I thought he was but if not, great showing for him.
He really wasn't amped.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh really?

http://i.imgur.com/f5LvqHE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zjQhHWI.jpg

Doing that to land and lobo is better showing than doing it to thing and hulk

When superman lets loose he is just on another level

I would love to see thanos tanking what doomsday did and then get on an all out fight with superman and see how it goes

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Doing that to land and lobo is better showing than doing it to thing and hulk

When superman lets loose he is just on another level

I would love to see thanos tanking what doomsday did and then get on an all out fight with superman and see how it goes Comparable IMO. Neither were particularly impressive though.

Well, he's tanked a lot worse, so there's that. Plus there's a chance it happens to a bunch of high herald level people in a couple months, so... that'll make the forum interesting to say the least. Just the waiting game now.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Doing that to land and lobo is better showing than doing it to thing and hulk

When superman lets loose he is just on another level

I would love to see thanos tanking what doomsday did and then get on an all out fight with superman and see how it goes Thanos took what PG Thor had and then went and took what Odin had

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Doing that to land and lobo is better showing than doing it to thing and hulk

When superman lets loose he is just on another level

I would love to see thanos tanking what doomsday did and then get on an all out fight with superman and see how it goes

When Superman let's loose he isn't on another level, because I saw what his pears can do. When Superman is solar charged, then and only then does he transcend his station.

Why am I saying this? On average all of the hero's are holding back, but when they go ape shit, they jump up to a level, below what Morg with both PC, and Water's of Life was on. Most high Heralds would need help to take Morg down at that power level down, and this includes Superman (on average).

Thanos is above an average Superman.

Originally posted by Stoic
When Superman let's loose he isn't on another level, because I saw what his pears can do. When Superman is solar charged, then and only then does he transcend his station.

Why am I saying this? On average all of the hero's are holding back, but when they go ape shit, they jump up to a level, below what Morg with both PC, and Water's of Life was on. Most high Heralds would need help to take Morg down at that power level down, and this includes Superman (on average).

Thanos is above an average Superman.

Originally posted by Stoic
When Superman let's loose he isn't on another level, because I saw what his pears can do. When Superman is solar charged, then and only then does he transcend his station.

Why am I saying this? On average all of the hero's are holding back, but when they go ape shit, they jump up to a level, below what Morg with both PC, and Water's of Life was on. Most high Heralds would need help to take Morg down at that power level down, and this includes Superman (on average).

Thanos is above an average Superman. Thanos is not above an average Superman in strength. Superman holds back because he doesn't kill. Thanos kills. This is like at least a 2x difference. Super mans feats proves he can go several levels above.

For example, in DOS, during most of the comic, Average Superman didn't manage to even hurt DD. It wasn't until he stopped holding back that he managed to kill DD in a few pages. Going from not hurting someone to killing them in no time proves an increase beyond 5x.

In OWAW, superman went from fighting against a probe for hours to nearly one shotting them. And probes are at least low trans.

i once had someone tell me--and go for page after page trying to prove it--that thanos was at LEAST 1000x stronger than superman. ahh, those were the days....

This isn't even a contest really... If superman isn't amped.. thanos is clearly stronger... All one needs to do is look at the times Superman has been tossed around like a weak feeb... Konvict... Grundy (multiple times) DS (multiple times) Despero (multiple times) Doomsday (repeat) Now.. please list for me the times Thanos has been tossed around like a weak feeb and overpowered.. Not even CLOSE to the amount of times it has happened to superman.

That is where ABhi tries to fool people.. he'll talk about well superman can match anything Thanos has done.. Problem is.. Thanos showings are very consistent and high end... Superman as a whole isn't nearly as consistent nor formidable as a whole. That is the key difference. Superman having a similar feat to Thanos is expected as many more times as he's appeared in comics. However, what isn't close is the amount of times Superman has been feeb'd by other people in comparison to Thanos. Superman gets limbs and arms broken.. Thanos pimps slaps away people on the same level that have feeb'd superman. Nuff said.

Originally posted by Badabing


I will make Digi pay DEARLY for this meme!

Ah, so its lowballing time again?Originally posted by Insane Titan
Thanos took what PG Thor had and then went and took what Odin had
Superman took on a hugely amped Infinity Man and then went on to tank the source wall exploding. Thanos vs Odin wasn't a show of strength, it was a show of durability.Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This isn't even a contest really... If superman isn't amped.. thanos is clearly stronger... All one needs to do is look at the times Superman has been tossed around like a weak feeb... Konvict... Grundy (multiple times) DS (multiple times) Despero (multiple times) Doomsday (repeat) Now.. please list for me the times Thanos has been tossed around like a weak feeb and overpowered.. Not even CLOSE to the amount of times it has happened to superman.

That is where ABhi tries to fool people.. he'll talk about well superman can match anything Thanos has done.. Problem is.. Thanos showings are very consistent and high end... Superman as a whole isn't nearly as consistent nor formidable as a whole. That is the key difference. Superman having a similar feat to Thanos is expected as many more times as he's appeared in comics. However, what isn't close is the amount of times Superman has been feeb'd by other people in comparison to Thanos. Superman gets limbs and arms broken.. Thanos pimps slaps away people on the same level that have feeb'd superman. Nuff said.
Thanos appears in some years and has every bad showing retconned out by Starlin. Of course he's going to be more consistent. What I find amusing that Thanos is such a weak feeb that you can't prove him stronger than superman by feats, so you have to lowball superman. Tells something, isn't it?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This isn't even a contest really... If superman isn't amped.. thanos is clearly stronger... All one needs to do is look at the times Superman has been tossed around like a weak feeb... Konvict... Grundy (multiple times) DS (multiple times) Despero (multiple times) Doomsday (repeat) Now.. please list for me the times Thanos has been tossed around like a weak feeb and overpowered.. Not even CLOSE to the amount of times it has happened to superman.

That is where ABhi tries to fool people.. he'll talk about well superman can match anything Thanos has done.. Problem is.. Thanos showings are very consistent and high end... Superman as a whole isn't nearly as consistent nor formidable as a whole. That is the key difference. Superman having a similar feat to Thanos is expected as many more times as he's appeared in comics. However, what isn't close is the amount of times Superman has been feeb'd by other people in comparison to Thanos. Superman gets limbs and arms broken.. Thanos pimps slaps away people on the same level that have feeb'd superman. Nuff said. Originally posted by h1a8
Thanos is not above an average Superman in strength. Superman holds back because he doesn't kill. Thanos kills. This is like at least a 2x difference. Super mans feats proves he can go several levels above.

For example, in DOS, during most of the comic, Average Superman didn't manage to even hurt DD. It wasn't until he stopped holding back that he managed to kill DD in a few pages. Going from not hurting someone to killing them in no time proves an increase beyond 5x.

In OWAW, superman went from fighting against a probe for hours to nearly one shotting them. And probes are at least low trans.

An average Superman does hold back considerably and if what was shown in OWAW is Superman with no restraints then Thanos will be in for the fight of his life. Thanos would have to win with some created construct ,secret information, or extremely specified energy manipulation. Might as well bring up tropes of heroes villians and anti heroes. In each case you have characters that hold back considerably and then you have others that don't or do so selectively based on their outlook. If we control for that then Superman should win more times than not being on the same mindset as Thanos without some pis or cis. But it would be extremely brutal either way it goes down

Originally posted by Decimus
An average Superman does hold back considerably and if what was shown in OWAW is Superman with no restraints then Thanos will be in for the fight of his life. Thanos would have to win with some created construct ,secret information, or extremely specified energy manipulation. Might as well bring up tropes of heroes villians and anti heroes. In each case you have characters that hold back considerably and then you have others that don't or do so selectively based on their outlook. If we control for that then Superman should win more times than not being on the same mindset as Thanos without some pis or cis. But it would be extremely brutal either way it goes down Superman and Captain marvel are in the same strength league and a none holding back superman and a none holding back CM were still dead even. Superman does not stop holding back and rise above Marvel or any other character in his strength class. ALL characters have did that OWAW thing in their own way. Thanos would kill superman UNLESS superman takes a good sundip. CM and superman were locked in arm wrestling and from supermans mouth himself knew, stated and made it clear as day that he and CM were too evenly matched in strength and superman was NOT holding back and only won when CM lost strength.http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/139093/2949507-black+adam+1.jpg

Thanos 10/10

Pure comedy

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ah, so its lowballing time again?
Superman took on a hugely amped Infinity Man and then went on to tank the source wall exploding. Thanos vs Odin wasn't a show of strength, it was a show of durability.
Thanos appears in some years and has every bad showing retconned out by Starlin. Of course he's going to be more consistent. What I find amusing that Thanos is such a weak feeb that you can't prove him stronger than superman by feats, so you have to lowball superman. Tells something, isn't it? he didn't nothing to Infinity Man and IM didn't even want to fight Superman lol

Originally posted by Insane Titan
he didn't nothing to Infinity Man and IM didn't even want to fight Superman lol
Just like Thanos did nothing to PG Thor and Infinity Man asked for superman to leave or feel his wrath. At least IM acknowledged that Superman would've taken him down in h2h.

WTF is Superman/Captain Marvel rivalry supposed to mean here? Did Thanos beat Captain Marvel or proved stronger somewhere I didn't know? Its between Superman and Thanos, what the **** is CM doing here as a reference?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Pure comedy
Nothing as funny as your theory that Thor is as strong as Superman though.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This isn't even a contest really... If superman isn't amped.. thanos is clearly stronger... All one needs to do is look at the times Superman has been tossed around like a weak feeb... Konvict... Grundy (multiple times) DS (multiple times) Despero (multiple times) Doomsday (repeat) Now.. please list for me the times Thanos has been tossed around like a weak feeb and overpowered.. Not even CLOSE to the amount of times it has happened to superman.


Don't hate because Marvel's characters are weaker

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just like Thanos did nothing to PG Thor and Infinity Man asked for superman to leave or feel his wrath. At least IM acknowledged that Superman would've taken him down in h2h.

Thanos was knocking PG THor all over the place the only thing that saved Thor was th PG.


Lmao talk about twisting words

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Thanos was knocking PG THor all over the place the only thing that saved Thor was th PG.


Lmao talk about twisting words
And Superman was dominating Infinity Man straight up in h2h.

No twisting, superman said he would bring him down if he pounded on him long enough and IM said it would be judicious to cut their battle short then.


http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_DeathOfTheNewGods07e.jpg

Thanos eats Superman for breakfast and then weeps a single tear when he realizes that it was the least satisfying meal he's ever had the displeasure of consuming. He was expecting gourmet but instead got crappy cereal.

Originally posted by Orrsome28
Thanos eats Superman for breakfast and then weeps a single tear when he realizes that it was the least satisfying meal he's ever had the displeasure of consuming. He was expecting gourmet but instead got crappy cereal.


First post a strength feat that Superman can't match and we would talk.

Originally posted by abhilegend
And Superman was dominating Infinity Man straight up in h2h.

No twisting, superman said he would bring him down if he pounded on him long enough and IM said it would be judicious to cut their battle short then.


http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_DeathOfTheNewGods07e.jpg IM wasn't trying to fight him though.

Lol Superman said ,IM had other things to attend to which was more important

Originally posted by abhilegend
First post a strength feat that Superman can't match and we would talk.

It seems our opinions do not coincide on this matter.

From the look of it, you certainly love you some Superman don't you?

Am I not worthy of conversation without definitive proof that Thanos is indeed greater than Superman?

I'm not partial to either character by the way.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
IM wasn't trying to fight him though.

Lol Superman said ,IM had other things to attend to which was more important
He was. Just before that he said either leave or face his wrath.

It matters little as Superman dominated a hugely amped Infinity Man in h2h.Originally posted by Orrsome28
It seems our opinions do not coincide on this matter.

From the look of it, you certainly love you some Superman don't you?

Am I not worthy of conversation without definitive proof that Thanos is indeed greater than Superman?

I'm not partial to either character by the way.
So, you don't have anything. Good to know.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He was. Just before that he said either leave or face his wrath.

It matters little as Superman dominated a hugely amped Infinity Man in h2h.
So, you don't have anything. Good to know.

All you really know is that I didn't provide evidence. A lack of evidence does not mean it doesn't in fact exist.

I merely expressed an opinion (which was clearly in jest regardless of my actual stance on the matter) and I already stated I'm not partial to either character, so why would I bother looking for the proof you apparently require? Perhaps if I were invested in either character I would take the time to give you what you so desire but I'm not.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nothing as funny as your theory that Thor is as strong as Superman though.

Thor is as strong as Superman, thinking otherwise is just plain idiotic.

Each characters have there strengths and weaknesses, and other areas where one excels at while the other fails.

Originally posted by Orrsome28
All you really know is that I didn't provide evidence. A lack of evidence does not mean it doesn't in fact exist.

I merely expressed an opinion (which was clearly in jest regardless of my actual stance on the matter) and I already stated I'm not partial to either character, so why would I bother looking for the proof you apparently require? Perhaps if I were invested in either character I would take the time to give you what you so desire but I'm not.
So what exactly is your point?

Originally posted by SquallX
Thor is as strong as Superman, thinking otherwise is just plain idiotic.

Each characters have there strengths and weaknesses, and other areas where one excels at while the other fails.


Even staunch thorbags like Rage don't think so. But you think Thor is as strong as Superman?

crylaugh

So tell me abhi... So you think superman is stronger than Thanos or are you saying they are peers?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So tell me abhi... So you think superman is stronger than Thanos or are you saying they are peers?
I'm not saying anything here. I'm just posting scans.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So what exactly is your point?

Originally posted by abhilegend
He was. Just before that he said either leave or face his wrath.

It matters little as Superman dominated a hugely amped Infinity Man in h2h.
So, you don't have anything. Good to know. yeah because IM wasn't even trying , do you even understand what you read or post

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not saying anything here. I'm just posting scans.

Okay... but I'm asking you what is your opinion on the matter?

Originally posted by Insane Titan
yeah because IM wasn't even trying , do you even understand what you read or post
He was trying to put him down as he says "Leave and you'll be spared".

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay... but I'm asking you what is your opinion on the matter?
If I have to hazard a guess they would be peers IMO. Stronger than people like Thor.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He was trying to put him down as he says "Leave and you'll be spared".


If I have to hazard a guess they would be peers IMO. Stronger than people like Thor. meaning if he didn't he would kill him, which he's wasn't trying to do because he he wasn't a new god.

h1 style eh Abhi

Originally posted by Insane Titan
meaning if he didn't he would kill him, which he's wasn't trying to do because he he wasn't a new god.

h1 style eh Abhi
Initially he said that Superman wasn't a new god and should leave and he would be spared.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_DeathOfTheNewGods07b.jpg

Superman refused, its not hard to know what happened next.

Originally posted by JBL
Superman and Captain marvel are in the same strength league and a none holding back superman and a none holding back CM were still dead even. Superman does not stop holding back and rise above Marvel or any other character in his strength class. ALL characters have did that OWAW thing in their own way. Thanos would kill superman UNLESS superman takes a good sundip. CM and superman were locked in arm wrestling and from supermans mouth himself knew, stated and made it clear as day that he and CM were too evenly matched in strength and superman was NOT holding back and only won when CM lost strength.http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/139093/2949507-black+adam+1.jpg

Thanos 10/10

That is an interesting scan I have seen before especially since nowhere is it stated or implied that Superman is not holding back (and merely just trying to placate Captain Marvel for the sake of the team) . Listen all I am saying is that more so than any other member of the Justice League Superman was shown overtime in many instances to be superior to his fellow members (OWAW was the ultimate example of this) when he stopped holding back becomes the hero that is the most consistent to get the job done against impossible odds.The characters Superman and Captain Marvel have evolved through time differently than what is being presented which is a bit of an shadowy unsound tactic being used ...

Originally posted by Decimus
That is an interesting scan I have seen before especially since nowhere is it stated or implied that Superman is not holding back (and merely just trying to placate Captain Marvel for the sake of the team) . Listen all I am saying is that more so than any other member of the Justice League Superman was shown overtime in many instances to be superior to his fellow members (OWAW was the ultimate example of this) when he stopped holding back becomes the hero that is the most consistent to get the job done against impossible odds.The characters Superman and Captain Marvel have evolved through time differently than what is being presented which is a bit of an shadowy unsound tactic being used ...
http://i.imgur.com/HVeMPNr.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oEij7He.jpg

mmm

A lot of people have been called the strongest being on the planet, ABHI.

Originally posted by Decimus
That is an interesting scan I have seen before especially since nowhere is it stated or implied that Superman is not holding back (and merely just trying to placate Captain Marvel for the sake of the team) . Listen all I am saying is that more so than any other member of the Justice League Superman was shown overtime in many instances to be superior to his fellow members (OWAW was the ultimate example of this) when he stopped holding back becomes the hero that is the most consistent to get the job done against impossible odds.The characters Superman and Captain Marvel have evolved through time differently than what is being presented which is a bit of an shadowy unsound tactic being used ... All heros get the job done against impossible odds. Look at it like this using Supes,CM and BA. lets say you me and carver each had a corvette of equal power, we all went for a drive, you like to drive fast, i drive the speed limit and carver drove like an old lady lol. Superman who holds back would be carvers car, CM would be my car and BA would be your car, now carvers car is a show car, it gets all the attention and is used in parades and car shows while the other 2 cars are not as popular, but get all three cars together and put the pedal to the metal we would all get the SAME output from the motor. Understand what i am saying? Carvers car is not going to out muscle our cars because he decides to punch it because we can do the same thing too.

Originally posted by carver9
A lot of people have been called the strongest being on the planet, ABHI.
Preboot DC? Post a single scan saying so.

Also I've to say, JBL pulls out the weirdest analogies to demean superman. Such hate has to be admired.

Originally posted by JBL
Superman and Captain marvel are in the same strength league and a none holding back superman and a none holding back CM were still dead even. Superman does not stop holding back and rise above Marvel or any other character in his strength class. ALL characters have did that OWAW thing in their own way. Thanos would kill superman UNLESS superman takes a good sundip. CM and superman were locked in arm wrestling and from supermans mouth himself knew, stated and made it clear as day that he and CM were too evenly matched in strength and superman was NOT holding back and only won when CM lost strength.http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/139093/2949507-black+adam+1.jpg

Thanos 10/10 Show me Marvel increasing his strength beyond 5x when he lets loose. Otherwise you have no basis for such statements.
Also it was stated that Superman subconsciously holds back. That means at times he believes he is using all of his strength when he really isn't. He had to be in extreme situations (dd) or taught (Mongol) to let loose his full power.

Why can't Marvel be stronger than Thanos too when he doesn't hold back?

Pointing out that superman would lose to Thanos and is in the same strength class as CM and BA holding back or not is not hate. Hate is when people refuse to accept the fact that superman can and will lose to thanos and has a lot of peers in the same class as him. Hate is when one statement is seen as truth and another is pushed aside because it cancels out the first cherry picked one. If people say superman lose, its seen as hate? if they say he wins they are loved?

Originally posted by h1a8
Show me Marvel increasing his strength beyond 5x when he lets loose. Otherwise you have no basis for such statements.
Also it was stated that Superman subconsciously holds back. That means at times he believes he is using all of his strength when he really isn't. He had to be in extreme situations (dd) or taught (Mongol) to let loose his full power.

Why can't Marvel be stronger than Thanos too when he doesn't hold back?

Thanos does hold back. You obviously don't recall when he fought his clone. That was a Thanos that went all out, as opposed to his usual feats of power, where he is often seen taking it easy on guys in Superman's tiier. You aren't going to win anyone over with this "he is always holding back" argument. All of the hero's hold back. When Thanos took hits from Thor he was holding back. Thor was going all out. When he fought his clone, he had to dig deep, and we see him actually shift into an energized physical state.

On average Superman is being bowled over by people far less powerful than someone capable of taking hits from Odin. You're obviously going to win the strength argument based off of the fact, that Thanos has no lifting feats. But then again neither does the Living Tribunal, Death, the Inbetweener, and many other characters out there. Should we automatically say that Superman is stronger than those guys as well. Actually don't answer, I forgot that you can't see past your own flawed logic.

At average, Superman is still in the herald range, just like Blue Marvel, the Silver Surfer, Thor and several others. Thanos is above these guys.

Well, I don't think Superman is stronger than Thanos, but I'm not sure how Black Adam and Billy Marvel prove that point seeing as they have just as ridiculous feats as Superman (though not as numerous).

Though on the topic of lifting feats vs fighting feats, no one actually thinks Hyperion is stronger than Thanos, right?

Originally posted by h1a8
Show me Marvel increasing his strength beyond 5x when he lets loose. Otherwise you have no basis for such statements.
Also it was stated that Superman subconsciously holds back. That means at times he believes he is using all of his strength when he really isn't. He had to be in extreme situations (dd) or taught (Mongol) to let loose his full power.

Why can't Marvel be stronger than Thanos too when he doesn't hold back? h1a8, superman has never increased his strength a single digit by cutting loose,but Lets just agree to disagree about superman because you have the advantage on me anyway my friend.

Originally posted by JBL
h1a8, superman has never increased his strength a single digit by cutting loose,but Lets just agree to disagree about superman because you have the advantage on me anyway my friend.

This is the first time such a thing was even thought. Man oh man.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Well, I don't think Superman is stronger than Thanos, but I'm not sure how Black Adam and Billy Marvel prove that point seeing as they have just as ridiculous feats as Superman (though not as numerous).

Though on the topic of lifting feats vs fighting feats, no one actually thinks Hyperion is stronger than Thanos, right?


No, unless they discount Hyperion getting hurt by guys below Thanos.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Initially he said that Superman wasn't a new god and should leave and he would be spared.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_DeathOfTheNewGods07b.jpg

Superman refused, its not hard to know what happened next. honestly this is a serious question , are you thick or is this a act ??

Originally posted by SquallX
Thor is as strong as Superman, thinking otherwise is just plain idiotic.

Each characters have there strengths and weaknesses, and other areas where one excels at while the other fails.

Superman is definitively stronger than Thor.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Superman is definitively stronger than Thor. That was half-hearted. I putting Abhi or h1a8 in charge of the House of El.

Originally posted by Badabing
That was half-hearted. I putting Abhi or h1a8 in charge of the House of El.

I've already banished, Abhi the Usurper, from the House of El.

HIA8 recognizes my power.

I am the UNDISPUTED ruler of The House of El.

Watch your mouth in the future,boy!

Originally posted by h1a8
Show me Marvel increasing his strength beyond 5x when he lets loose. Otherwise you have no basis for such statements.
Also it was stated that Superman subconsciously holds back. That means at times he believes he is using all of his strength when he really isn't. He had to be in extreme situations (dd) or taught (Mongol) to let loose his full power.


This is silly. Even humans have increased strength during extreme situations. Its call adrenaline. Your logic is faulty.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
honestly this is a serious question , are you thick or is this a act ??
So you're being an ******* for no reason at all? What was wrong in that assessment?Originally posted by tkitna
This is silly. Even humans have increased strength during extreme situations. Its call adrenaline. Your logic is faulty.
Superman has increased his strength when cutting loose though, its not just adrenaline rush.

Originally posted by Stoic
Thanos does hold back. You obviously don't recall when he fought his clone. That was a Thanos that went all out, as opposed to his usual feats of power, where he is often seen taking it easy on guys in Superman's tiier. You aren't going to win anyone over with this "he is always holding back" argument. All of the hero's hold back. When Thanos took hits from Thor he was holding back. Thor was going all out. When he fought his clone, he had to dig deep, and we see him actually shift into an energized physical state.

On average Superman is being bowled over by people far less powerful than someone capable of taking hits from Odin. You're obviously going to win the strength argument based off of the fact, that Thanos has no lifting feats. But then again neither does the Living Tribunal, Death, the Inbetweener, and many other characters out there. Should we automatically say that Superman is stronger than those guys as well. Actually don't answer, I forgot that you can't see past your own flawed logic.

At average, Superman is still in the herald range, just like Blue Marvel, the Silver Surfer, Thor and several others. Thanos is above these guys.
I'm waiting for Thanos' combat strength feats that show he's stronger than superman though.

Originally posted by Stoic
Thanos does hold back. You obviously don't recall when he fought his clone. That was a Thanos that went all out, as opposed to his usual feats of power, where he is often seen taking it easy on guys in Superman's tiier. You aren't going to win anyone over with this "he is always holding back" argument. All of the hero's hold back. When Thanos took hits from Thor he was holding back. Thor was going all out. When he fought his clone, he had to dig deep, and we see him actually shift into an energized physical state.

On average Superman is being bowled over by people far less powerful than someone capable of taking hits from Odin. You're obviously going to win the strength argument based off of the fact, that Thanos has no lifting feats. But then again neither does the Living Tribunal, Death, the Inbetweener, and many other characters out there. Should we automatically say that Superman is stronger than those guys as well. Actually don't answer, I forgot that you can't see past your own flawed logic.

At average, Superman is still in the herald range, just like Blue Marvel, the Silver Surfer, Thor and several others. Thanos is above these guys.

There is a difference between how superman holds back and how others holds back.

Thanos wouldn't use the same amount of power in his blast against Galactus like he would to knock out let's say spiderman. Thano's is calculating and is in full control of his powers and he can use them as he see's fit.

It's like in football, is the qb going to put the same amount of power behind a 60+ yard pass as he would on a screen pass to the RB at the line of scrimmage?

A Quarterback is in control and is aware of his strength and limitations. He can put as much oomph as needed and holds back his arm strength on shorter passes, while superman on the other hand subconsciously imposed limits on himself that he can't break without proper training. The superman we see everyday limits it himself so that he appears to be a peer of high heralds, but as shown in OWAW, he isn't when those limitations are removed.

Originally posted by Diesldude
There is a difference between how superman holds back and how others holds back.

Thanos wouldn't use the same amount of power in his blast against Galactus like he would to knock out let's say spiderman. Thano's is calculating and is in full control of his powers and he can use them as he see's fit.

It's like in football, is the qb going to put the same amount of power behind a 60+ yard pass as he would on a screen pass to the RB at the line of scrimmage?

A Quarterback is in control and is aware of his strength and limitations. He can put as much oomph as needed and holds back his arm strength on shorter passes, while superman on the other hand subconsciously imposed limits on himself that he can't break without proper training. The superman we see everyday limits it himself so that he appears to be a peer of high heralds, but as shown in OWAW, he isn't when those limitations are removed. That is totally not true. Superman does not now or ever have strength that he cannot access without proper training. He is not now nor ever going from CM level to the first Kurse level by removing so called self limitations. OWAW does not show anything but the heros time to win just like with EVERY hero ever created. Thor, Silver Surfer, Spiderman, She-hulk, Thing, Captain America, Batman, Wonder Woman and countless others have had their " hopeless appearing moments "only to turn around and start beating someone or something while giving a " heros speech" Leading to a dramatic victory. Kind of like rocky against that big russian, getting beat silly and then the music plays and down goes the bad guy. The hero gained nothing but the predictable victory. There is no strength increase anywhere and you can insert ANY hero in OWAW and would have gotten the same outcome.

http://i.imgur.com/owgT1QN.jpg

Its funny how much it pains certain posters to admit something which has been stated many times in the past.

Where has it ever been stated that superman cannot access his full powers because he cannot get passed his self imposed limitations?????? We all know superman holds back to keep from hurting regular people or foes that even thing could beat...... BUT when faced with the big guns, he HAS went all out and won some and lost some. Just because a foe is stronger does not mean he cannot be beaten by the hero. Show a scan from ANY comic or a statement from ANY writer that has said that superman goes a half level above the likes of thor, CM,BA or any of his peers by dropping self imposed limitations. That scan shows that superman limits himself to keep from hurting weaker people, dont try and twist it. thing or rhino would be glad he holds back..... Hyperion, Thanos, CM, BA, BM,Gladiator, Kurse, thor or supreme would not care what he does.

Name one character who has beaten all out superman in h2h. And Superman holds back against even peers like Orion who comments how its good to see Superman not pull his punches for once.

http://i.imgur.com/d7bdObX.jpg

Or against someone like Monarch.

http://i.imgur.com/doCzc0Q.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/aBfNMve.jpg
So no, he doesn't holds back against only people weaker than him.

Originally posted by abhilegend


http://i.imgur.com/owgT1QN.jpg

Its funny how much it pains certain posters to admit something which has been stated many times in the past. PM me the issue number if you have the info. I barely remember that arc.

I don't even know if Superman or Thanos is stronger. Honestly, I really don't.

That said, the sheer amount of petty, sad lowballing just makes me wonder if a good portion of the people in this thread have anything better to do during the day than shit on the fictional character that somehow wrong them.

"wah, stop lowballing my character... now i'm going to lowball yours".

grow up. **** sake.

Originally posted by JBL
That is totally not true. Superman does not now or ever have strength that he cannot access without proper training. He is not now nor ever going from CM level to the first Kurse level by removing so called self limitations. OWAW does not show anything but the heros time to win just like with EVERY hero ever created. Thor, Silver Surfer, Spiderman, She-hulk, Thing, Captain America, Batman, Wonder Woman and countless others have had their " hopeless appearing moments "only to turn around and start beating someone or something while giving a " heros speech" Leading to a dramatic victory. Kind of like rocky against that big russian, getting beat silly and then the music plays and down goes the bad guy. The hero gained nothing but the predictable victory. There is no strength increase anywhere and you can insert ANY hero in OWAW and would have gotten the same outcome.

Why do you insist on trolling? Superman has multiple times went from not being able to hurt someone USING ALL OF HIS MIGHT to basically one shotting them or killing them in a few panels. Give me a specific example of another character that did that. It was explained over and over that Superman holds back subconsciously. You are ignoring on panel evidence.

How do you know that CM isn't a lot stronger than Thanos? We go by feats since neither character has met and it is the only basis we have. In other words, direct comparisions fail against characters from different companies. We must use outside feats to compare them.

Originally posted by Stoic
Thanos does hold back. You obviously don't recall when he fought his clone. That was a Thanos that went all out, as opposed to his usual feats of power, where he is often seen taking it easy on guys in Superman's tiier. You aren't going to win anyone over with this "he is always holding back" argument. All of the hero's hold back. When Thanos took hits from Thor he was holding back. Thor was going all out. When he fought his clone, he had to dig deep, and we see him actually shift into an energized physical state.

On average Superman is being bowled over by people far less powerful than someone capable of taking hits from Odin. You're obviously going to win the strength argument based off of the fact, that Thanos has no lifting feats. But then again neither does the Living Tribunal, Death, the Inbetweener, and many other characters out there. Should we automatically say that Superman is stronger than those guys as well. Actually don't answer, I forgot that you can't see past your own flawed logic.

At average, Superman is still in the herald range, just like Blue Marvel, the Silver Surfer, Thor and several others. Thanos is above these guys.

Lifting feats aren't the only feats that prove strength. Look at WBH's feat.
Striking feats, pushing feats, wrestling feats, etc. work.
Durability is not the same as strength.

It is borderline trolling to claim that Thanos is stronger than Superman without a basis. You can't use direct comparisons because characters from different companies have never met. We have to use pure strength feats to compare.

To me it always seems futile arguing against Superman. Nothing good ever really comes of it. He does after all continuously operate outside of comic book logic. How do you beat that?

Originally posted by JBL
That is totally not true. Superman does not now or ever have strength that he cannot access without proper training. He is not now nor ever going from CM level to the first Kurse level by removing so called self limitations. OWAW does not show anything but the heros time to win just like with EVERY hero ever created. Thor, Silver Surfer, Spiderman, She-hulk, Thing, Captain America, Batman, Wonder Woman and countless others have had their " hopeless appearing moments "only to turn around and start beating someone or something while giving a " heros speech" Leading to a dramatic victory. Kind of like rocky against that big russian, getting beat silly and then the music plays and down goes the bad guy. The hero gained nothing but the predictable victory. There is no strength increase anywhere and you can insert ANY hero in OWAW and would have gotten the same outcome.

The Rocky and Drago analogy is pretty sound, he willed himself to victory but he wasn't limiting himself at the beginning of the fight. Like all hero's that gain these predictable victory. Rocky didn't get stronger, more durable or improved his boxing skills as the fight went on. Similarly other hero's can step up and win due to "predictable victory" but they have this power in them and that is the level superman is on with his self imposed limitations.


Superman's limitations work differently, he had to to undergo training to fully realize his strength that pushed him beyond his former peers. Not an amp, or a push to make him look better because of the eventual win. Him getting trained to remove those limitation was a big story in the arc. Why weren't other "peers" also asked to remove their limitations if they also hold back? Why were his peers having trouble with the probes if they too could stop holding back? why was it just Superman and HP Doomsday (doesn't hold back, we saw what he did to DS), alone capable of destroying these probes?

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Superman is definitively stronger than Thor.

Strength is defined in many different ways. Superman is stronger than Thor in a strength category, but not by much.

But using all there powers, they are equals with one having certain traits that that puts one slightly ahead of the other.

Originally posted by SquallX
Strength is defined in many different ways. Superman is stronger than Thor in a strength category, but not by much.

But using all there powers, they are equals with one having certain traits that that puts one slightly ahead of the other.
Stronger in strength category?

Originally posted by Diesldude
The Rocky and Drago analogy is pretty sound, he willed himself to victory but he wasn't limiting himself at the beginning of the fight. Like all hero's that gain these predictable victory. Rocky didn't get stronger, more durable or improved his boxing skills as the fight went on. Similarly other hero's can step up and win due to "predictable victory" but they have this power in them and that is the level superman is on with his self imposed limitations.


But superman is different, he had to to undergo training to fully realize his strength that pushed him beyond his former peers. Not an amp, or a push to make him look better because of the eventual win. Him getting trained to remove those limitation was a big story in the arc. Why weren't other "peers" also asked to remove their limitations if they also hold back? Why were his peers having trouble with the probes if they too could stop holding back? why was it it was just Superman and HP Doomsday (doesn't hold back, we saw what he did to DS), alone capable of destroying these probes? Because superman and Doomsday were the feature attractions. Superman gets his strength from solar energy ( sunlight ). Now if he sundips and double his strength, it will soon wear off and he goes back to normal right? Now h1a8 claims he goes up x5 by dropping mental blocks ( yet some claim he needs training to do this, go figure ) So now sundipping overides his restrained unreachable strength and drops his mental blocks without superman knowing it and the mental blocks return when the amp fades??? OR..... Is it the fact that superman knows that the ONLY way to get stronger is to sum amp?? Why not just drop his mental blocks instead of flying to the sun wasting time? When he moved warworld, why did he not drop his mental blocks and gain x5 strength? Superman is not stupid, he knows how to get stronger and he has FULL access to his powers and he know full well to haul butt to the sun to increase his strength. I have yet to see him say he will drop mental blocks and get stronger, but we have seen him bath in the sun to get stronger. Why have 2 power up abilities and only use one for 60+ years??? The answer is clear as day.

@H1A8, even though JLA/Avengers is not canon on this forum, it does not omit the fact that both companies saw eye to eye on the outcome of Superman and Thor's battle. This is a battle that would not have exhausted Thanos as was seen recently when Thor hit him with lightning twice, only to hear him beg for more of the same, and he willingly took a hit to the head from Thor which only served to move his head. This was just before he nearly KO'd Thor with one punch. Again Thanos can not win a who is the stronger match against Superman, because he does not have the lifting feats to argue for him. But like I said before, neither do many of the abstract beings in comics. Does this mean that Superman is stronger than they are? Of course not.

Originally posted by Stoic
@H1A8, even though JLA/Avengers is not canon on this forum, it does not omit the fact that both companies saw eye to eye on the outcome of Superman and Thor's battle. This is a battle that would not have exhausted Thanos as was seen recently when Thor hit him with lightning twice, only to hear him beg for more of the same, and he willingly took a hit to the head from Thor which only served to move his head. This was just before he nearly KO'd Thor with one punch. Again Thanos can not win a who is the stronger match against Superman, because he does not have the lifting feats to argue for him. But like I said before, neither do many of the abstract beings in comics. Does this mean that Superman is stronger than they are? Of course not. Again you nail it down good Stoic. Even Surfer who raped Orion who has given superman hell, looked like a child against Thanos, so they use lifting feats knowing full well that Thanos does not go that route. But i must admit, its clever, but easy to see through.

Originally posted by Stoic
@H1A8, even though JLA/Avengers is not canon on this forum, it does not omit the fact that both companies saw eye to eye on the outcome of Superman and Thor's battle. This is a battle that would not have exhausted Thanos as was seen recently when Thor hit him with lightning twice, only to hear him beg for more of the same, and he willingly took a hit to the head from Thor which only served to move his head. This was just before he nearly KO'd Thor with one punch. Again Thanos can not win a who is the stronger match against Superman, because he does not have the lifting feats to argue for him. But like I said before, neither do many of the abstract beings in comics. Does this mean that Superman is stronger than they are? Of course not.
Then its good that you can't use JLA/Avengers as proof in this forum. But if we're using crossovers, Lobo stalemated Thanos in h2h.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Lobo/LobovsThanos.jpg

Superman has oneshotted Lobo in the past when he went all out and knocked out him and Mon-El together.

Lobo did not stalemate Thanos, he was a distraction. Lobo is also an enigma, at times he has been more powerful than Superman, even nearly killing him on their first meeting, to being so weak that a sledge hammer in the hands of a human hurt him. All the same, Lobo did not stalemate Thanos. In that same cluster of horribly written comics that you pulled that from, we also see Thanos taking it to multiple hero's.

I'm not going to continue on in this direction, because I know that Marvel vs DC is not canon to this forum, even though anything written is considered canon. Moving on.

Originally posted by Stoic
Lobo did not stalemate Thanos, he was a distraction. Lobo is also an enigma, at times he has been more powerful than Superman, even nearly killing him on their first meeting, to being so weak that a sledge hammer in the hands of a human hurt him. All the same, Lobo did not stalemate Thanos. In that same cluster of horribly written comics that you pulled that from, we also see Thanos taking it to multiple hero's.

I'm not going to continue on in this direction, because I know that Marvel vs DC is not canon to this forum, even though anything written is considered canon. Moving on.
We obviously see Lobo taking on Thanos in a slugfest for several panels before Thanos started using blasts. That's called a stalemate bro. Also Superman was mindcontrolled in the first fight against Lobo, later he treated Lobo like a child.

The only hero worth who fought Thanos was Captain Marvel and he was weakened at that time.

JLA/Avengers isn't too, move on from that too.

Nope the first time Superman fought Lobo is when Lobo was contracted to kill Superman, and the only reason that he did not was because he was too drunk, and pretty much forgot what it was that he was supposed to do. Superman even tried to escape by jumping into a suit of armor. This did him no good. We see stalemate differently. To me it means that they were deadlocked, which was clearly no the case, but yes, I'm done with the cross over talk.

Originally posted by JBL
Because superman and Doomsday were the feature attractions.
That's incorrect, how many appearances did Doomsday make in that entire arc? not enough to be considered a feature attraction.


Originally posted by JBL
Superman gets his strength from solar energy ( sunlight ). Now if he sundips and double his strength, it will soon wear off and he goes back to normal right? Now h1a8 claims he goes up x5 by dropping mental blocks ( yet some claim he needs training to do this, go figure ) So now sundipping overides his restrained unreachable strength and drops his mental blocks without superman knowing it and the mental blocks return when the amp fades??? OR..... Is it the fact that superman knows that the ONLY way to get stronger is to sum amp?? Why not just drop his mental blocks instead of flying to the sun wasting time? When he moved warworld, why did he not drop his mental blocks and gain x5 strength?


He needed training to break those mental blocks right? It wasn't a single session either, multiple sessions.. He can fly to the sun faster than light so it's actually easier and faster to get a sun amp.

We don't know how much and how fast the sun amps him. The longer he stays the stronger he gets. We do see how powerful he became in owaw after a sundip and at that point I don't think he knew he could amp that way. That's why Brainiac stated that he finally realized his potential and understood what he is.

With that said, since we don't know how much more powerful he becomes with a sundip, he may become way more stronger than even his mental blocks to help.

Originally posted by JBL
Superman is not stupid, he knows how to get stronger and he has FULL access to his powers and he know full well to haul butt to the sun to increase his strength. I have yet to see him say he will drop mental blocks and get stronger, but we have seen him bath in the sun to get stronger.

But that's exactly what he did. He underwent training to remove those mental blocks and become stronger so that he could one shot a being who was using his former peers as playthings.

Originally posted by JBL
Why have 2 power up abilities and only use one for 60+ years??? The answer is clear as day.

But holding back and those subconscious level mental blocks have been mentioned many times..

Flying to the sun is faster then just thinking? If these mental blocks are in place like everybody says, why doesn't Jonn just take them away when they are losing a battle? Oh I forgot, Superman is immune to telepathy right?

God I hate Superman. DC comes up with the dumbest crap ever just to wank him. He still isn't beating Thanos though. Two different levels.

Originally posted by Stoic
Nope the first time Superman fought Lobo is when Lobo was contracted to kill Superman, and the only reason that he did not was because he was too drunk, and pretty much forgot what it was that he was supposed to do. Superman even tried to escape by jumping into a suit of armor. This did him no good. We see stalemate differently. To me it means that they were deadlocked, which was clearly no the case, but yes, I'm done with the cross over talk.
I know, he was still mindcontrolled by Eradicator. At that time he was having a rough time with Draage FFS.

Good for you.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Then its good that you can't use JLA/Avengers as proof in this forum. But if we're using crossovers, Lobo stalemated Thanos in h2h.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Lobo/LobovsThanos.jpg

Superman has oneshotted Lobo in the past when he went all out and knocked out him and Mon-El together.
I don't see how that is a stalemate. In your own scan, we see Lobo getting swatted away in the matter of a single panel.

Which comic is this btw?

Originally posted by Epicurus
I don't see how that is a stalemate. In your own scan, we see Lobo getting swatted away in the matter of a single panel.


with energy attack but not physically. physically lobo was trading hits with him. thanos started a physical fight with lobo we see them trading blows, then we see thanos hit lobo with energy blast which means he couldnt overpower lobo physically so he resorted to energy blasts.

^Okay...but I don't see how this is supposed to be indisputable proof of Superman being superior to Thanos in terms physical strength. Especially when one takes into consideration the forum rules pertaining to crossovers and sh1t.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I don't see how that is a stalemate. In your own scan, we see Lobo getting swatted away in the matter of a single panel.

Which comic is this btw?
He was fighting with Thanos for awhile off panel. Its from DC vs Marvel.

Originally posted by Epicurus
^Okay...but I don't see how this is supposed to be indisputable proof of Superman being superior to Thanos in terms physical strength. Especially when one takes into consideration the forum rules pertaining to crossovers and sh1t.
I didn't use it for that. I was just giving example of a crossover which didn't make Thanos look good as Stoic was making it to be.

Guys, no crossovers.

Lmao at desperate Abhi.

Superman got beat down by She Hulk and Iron Man , while Thanos was manhandling Captain Marvel , Wonder Woman and a top GL

No more personal comments.

Now that I've said it (even though you all should know better), the next time it happens, it will be considered to be ignoring a mod.

So don't do it.

Originally posted by tkitna
Flying to the sun is faster then just thinking? If these mental blocks are in place like everybody says, why doesn't Jonn just take them away when they are losing a battle? Oh I forgot, Superman is immune to telepathy right?

God I hate Superman. DC comes up with the dumbest crap ever just to wank him. He still isn't beating Thanos though. Two different levels. Nice point. Jonn knows that supermans so called mental blocks are just superman holding back to keep from hurting normal or weaker people and that superman can stop holding back on his own against the likes of his peers. He did it against BA and nothing changed strength wise because he was not concerned about not hurting BA who could and did match superman.

This is why superman has mental blocks on a subconcious level.

1. Superman can go around normal people and have to keep reminding himself to be careful, oh i must not shake his hand too hard, my god, have to be careful not to accidently bump someone and kill them. If i sneeze i could kill a lot of people, i have to be careful. I dont want to kill this weaker foe, i have to be careful. He would have to do this 24/7 and every second of his life..OR...

2. He could sub-counciously regulate his powers so that he would not have to do the first one. Thats why batman said that superman over the years learned to do this. ( that thing was attacking them on a sub-concious level and thus was able to hurt superman because superman was sub-conciously surpressing his powers. thats why batman said superman was doing it to himself. Superman has went all-out plenty of time against many strong foes and friends and remained in the same strength class, he holds back against things or people that are not in his class or fear of killing them UNTIL he finds out that they can lay him out and take it or is just as strong and durable as him, he DOES NOT rise above them by not holding back, he then realize in order to have a chance to beat them, he HAS to go all out. Sometimes he wins, Sometimes he gets beat and needs help.

This is pure comedy. You know what? I'm going to nuke this thread with scans.

The ONLY time in his life he ever used his full strength against another living being prior to OWAW was when he punched the above top tier DoS Doomsday to death in moments Superman 152, by Jeph Loeb:

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1999%20Dec-Feb%20No%20Limits%20Superman%20152-153/?action=view&current=Supermanv2152-15.jpg

When he stops holding back and starts accessing his suppressed power, his stats increase:

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1999%20Dec-Feb%20No%20Limits%20Superman%20152-153/?action=view&current=Supermanv2152-01.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1999%20Dec-Feb%20No%20Limits%20Superman%20152-153/?action=view&current=Supermanv2152-02.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1999%20Dec-Feb%20No%20Limits%20Superman%20152-153/?action=view&current=Supermanv2152-03.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1999%20Dec-Feb%20No%20Limits%20Superman%20152-153/?action=view&current=Supermanv2152-04.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1999%20Dec-Feb%20No%20Limits%20Superman%20152-153/?action=view&current=Supermanv2152-05.jpg

Why? Because Superman's power-levels are controlled, regulated by, and fluctuate based on his mind:

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1999%20Dec-Feb%20No%20Limits%20Superman%20152-153/?action=view&current=Supermanv2152-07.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1999%20Dec-Feb%20No%20Limits%20Superman%20152-153/?action=view&current=Supermanv2152-09.jpg

His powers are SO deeply controlled by his mind, that when he has amnesia and forgets he has superpowers--his powers are suppressed by his mind -- Adventures of Superman 416 by Marv Wolfman:

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/02-%20Adventures%20of%20Superman%20426/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman426p05.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/02-%20Adventures%20of%20Superman%20426/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman426p06.jpg

When he believes that he is a top tier, his strength fluctuates saed on his mind allowing his access to his innate powers and his stats increase back to standard levels Action Comics 586 by John Byrne:

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_03.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_04.jpg

Darkseid/Desaad notes what happened:

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_06.jpg

Darkseid/Desaad uses his mental powers to unlock Superman back to to his standard levels(not that he was capped to strength lower than Ds himself at the time):

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_07.jpg

Sueprman power fluctuates back due to his mind releasing his power:

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_08.jpg

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_09.jpg

"Superman's powers require his full, active mind to drive them, and with his brain clouded by amnesia he's was like a powerful vehicle of war, capable of smashing a city, but without a skilled operator at the controls."
Now how does John Byrne, the WRITER of the above scene and the primary creator of the Post-Crisis Superman, DEFINE how Superman's strength-levels work?:

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/JohnByrne-SupermansstrenghthI-asstrongashebelievesheis.jpg

"What's his limit? Whatever he believes it to be."

And yes, he SPECIFICALLY wrote this in the comics -- Superman's power-levels are dependent upon his willpower:

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20FebAction%20585%20-powered%20by%20lifeforce%20and%20will/?action=view&current=ac_585_09.jpg

For those who would BULLSHIT there way around the above and claim that this was 'metaphorical', even readers in 1988 clearly saw what was meant--Superman's powers are dependent upon his mind check the above left letter from The Shadow #16 1988:

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1988%20The%20Shadow%2016%20-%20supermans%20power%20based%20on%20will/?action=view&current=29-Letters.jpg

No, That instance proves how Superman's OWN SUBCONSCIOUS MIND assessed his OWN fully unleashed relative power levels--and his mind DEFINES his power-levels. Remember--that was the first time we saw a Superman would was presented as a peer to Darkseid in combat.

WRONG:
1) Justice League: A Midsummer's Nightmare, Mark Waid and Fabian Niciezia - this storyline is what lead into Morrison's JLA:

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1996%20-%20JLA%20-%20%20A%20Midsummers%20Nightmare/?action=view&current=JusticeLeague-AMidsummersNightmarepg103-SupesNoLimitations.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1996%20-%20JLA%20-%20%20A%20Midsummers%20Nightmare/?action=view&current=JusticeLeague-AMidsummersNightmarepg104-SupesNoLimitations.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1996%20-%20JLA%20-%20%20A%20Midsummers%20Nightmare/?action=view&current=JusticeLeague-AMidsummersNightmarepg110-SupesNoLimitations.jpg

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/2001%20-%20Arkham%20Asylum%20-%20Emperor%20Joker/?action=view& amp;current=arkhamasylumAdventuresOfSuperman582p19
.jpg

"I don't know where that burst of strength came from! I didn't know I had that kind of power!'

So yeah, its not an isolated instance. Anybody still likes to deny it?

Originally posted by JBL
Nice point. Jonn knows that supermans so called mental blocks are just superman holding back to keep from hurting normal or weaker people and that superman can stop holding back on his own against the likes of his peers. He did it against BA and nothing changed strength wise because he was not concerned about not hurting BA who could and did match superman.

This is why superman has mental blocks on a subconcious level.

1. Superman can go around normal people and have to keep reminding himself to be careful, oh i must not shake his hand too hard, my god, have to be careful not to accidently bump someone and kill them. If i sneeze i could kill a lot of people, i have to be careful. I dont want to kill this weaker foe, i have to be careful. He would have to do this 24/7 and every second of his life..OR...

2. He could sub-counciously regulate his powers so that he would not have to do the first one. Thats why batman said that superman over the years learned to do this. ( that thing was attacking them on a sub-concious level and thus was able to hurt superman because superman was sub-conciously surpressing his powers. thats why batman said superman was doing it to himself. Superman has went all-out plenty of time against many strong foes and friends and remained in the same strength class, he holds back against things or people that are not in his class or fear of killing them UNTIL he finds out that they can lay him out and take it or is just as strong and durable as him, he DOES NOT rise above them by not holding back, he then realize in order to have a chance to beat them, he HAS to go all out. Sometimes he wins, Sometimes he gets beat and needs help.

I just gave evidence that Superman went from not being able to hurt someone USING ALL OF HIS MIGHT to killing them fast on multiple occasions. He was shown straining with all his might when he wasn't able to hurt the beings. In the same comics it was mentioned that Superman has to release the mental blocks as the only way he can win. It wasn't easy for him to do. He had to be trained in one instance and in another face the possibility of Lois and everyone else dying.

Originally posted by Stoic
@H1A8, even though JLA/Avengers is not canon on this forum, it does not omit the fact that both companies saw eye to eye on the outcome of Superman and Thor's battle. This is a battle that would not have exhausted Thanos as was seen recently when Thor hit him with lightning twice, only to hear him beg for more of the same, and he willingly took a hit to the head from Thor which only served to move his head. This was just before he nearly KO'd Thor with one punch. Again Thanos can not win a who is the stronger match against Superman, because he does not have the lifting feats to argue for him. But like I said before, neither do many of the abstract beings in comics. Does this mean that Superman is stronger than they are? Of course not. abstract beings are not physical. Thus They have no physical strength.

I understand what you are saying but you just can't say Thanos is stronger without a basis. How do we know he is stronger? What evidence do we have if we can't use crossovers? Outside of abstracts, physical beings needs feats to prove that they are stronger when comparing across companies. When comparing same companies then we can use direct comparison (although that evidence is weaker than feats). Characters with the better strength feats are stronger. That's how we know Namor is stronger than hawkman although they never fought.

Superman needs help and amps just to move a planet. His hardest punch to Doomsday in DoS shattered some windows. Thanos clashed with Drax and destroyed a planet. He killed Supernova+++ durability Silver Surfer in 7 punches.

He smacked Indestructible Hulk (Supernova level strength) across a town with a single gesture.

He stalemated Tyrant in physical strength, fought WM Power Gem Thor head up (over 200x stronger than Superman's shown strength by feats).

He beat down Captain Marvel who oneshotted planet busters like Magus, whooped Nova, and hurt Surfer.

Thanos has always been waaay stronger than the likes of Superman.....who still struggles to move a planet.

Originally posted by DarkRaiden
Superman needs help and amps just to move a planet. His hardest punch to Doomsday in DoS shattered some windows.

Good point.

Originally posted by DarkRaiden

He smacked Indestructible Hulk (Supernova level strength) across a town with a single gesture.



How many windows did that break?

Originally posted by DarkRaiden
Superman needs help and amps just to move a planet. Thanos hasn't moved a single planet. Retconned as having shook the planet to its core. It was an exhausted Superman anyway. Superman clashed with Kal-L and destroyed entire space time structure. He also contained a solar system destroying black hole in his hands. Surfer has never survived a supernova AFAIK. You know who has? Lobo.

http://i.imgur.com/12lGFEW.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3yCmpEd.jpg

Superman oneshot nearly killed him.


Superman oneshotted Lobo who pulls stellar mass without blinking twice. Hulk was helpless against a star's mass.

For one panel. Superman stalemated Imperiex powered Brainiac 13 in strength.

http://i.imgur.com/pxbmlq2.jpg

Without getting the power of Imperiex Brainiac 13 was destroying entire timelines like nothing.





I'd ask you to prove that first boy.

So did Namor. Thanos is Namor level now?

And Thanos has never moved a planet on his own. You know who has actually thrown planets like ping-pong balls? Mon-El.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_33495999ks9.jpg

and who throws stellar mass like nothing? Lobo.

http://i.imgur.com/bLpQzcv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zJLcI85.jpg

Superman has overpowered both of them together. You are proving how comicvine rots brain perfectly I might add though.

Originally posted by DarkRaiden
Superman needs help and amps just to move a planet. His hardest punch to Doomsday in DoS shattered some windows. Thanos clashed with Drax and destroyed a planet. He killed Supernova+++ durability Silver Surfer in 7 punches.

He smacked Indestructible Hulk (Supernova level strength) across a town with a single gesture.

He stalemated Tyrant in physical strength, fought WM Power Gem Thor head up (over 200x stronger than Superman's shown strength by feats).

He beat down Captain Marvel who oneshotted planet busters like Magus, whooped Nova, and hurt Surfer.

Thanos has always been waaay stronger than the likes of Superman.....who still struggles to move a planet.
at your logic

Hey guys, Superman needs help to move a plannet while everyone in marvel is supernova level strength. Nevermind the fact that no top tier in marvel has moved a planet solo too.


What I want to know is when did Silver Surfer survive a supernova? I keep hearing about it and has never seen it.

So, basically this exceedingly futile discussion reaffirms by belief that inside Superman's mind is a little door labeled 'deus ex machina' and all he has to do is conveniently open it and then: boom! everything is right again in the world.

When a character is written clearly to have limitations but continuously breaks said limits, I wonder why they were ever put in place at all. There are endless possibilities as to how Superman could potentially overcome the more serious threats he faces than the current explanations. You don't have to be a creative genius to come up with an alternative to the current 'Superman really wanted to win so he won' reasoning I am seeing here. Talk all you want of his mental blocks but it's essentially a 'win' button. Honestly, I don't find that appealing at all in a character. Superman simply overcomes any adversity because he IS Superman. Unfortunately, its as much a part of him just as any other attribute or ability he possesses.

While I respect Superman as an icon and for all the qualities he represents, I can't help but to see him as a fundamentally flawed character in terms of how he is written. Where I assume many see entertaining storytelling and awe-inspiring feats in regards to the character as of late, I see uninspired direction, poor reasoning, and a lack of any convincing development to the character. Now before anybody accuses me with the age old 'like you could do any better', I do not claim that I could, nor would I ever want to write the character as I've already stated my position on the subject.

However, I acknowledge that he is just as popular now as he ever was, so I can only conclude that the majority of readers are enjoying this new, albeit not so unfamiliar, exploration of the character.

Lastly, I enjoy reading Ahbi's posts. Such passion for the character. Ever the faithful and righteous defender of Superman. Its admirable.

Originally posted by Orrsome28
So, basically this exceedingly futile discussion reaffirms by belief that inside Superman's mind is a little door labeled 'deus ex machina' and all he has to do is conveniently open it and then: boom! everything is right again in the world.

When a character is written clearly to have limitations but continuously breaks said limits, I wonder why they were ever put in place at all. There are endless possibilities as to how Superman could potentially overcome the more serious threats he faces than the current explanations. You don't have to be a creative genius to come up with an alternative to the current 'Superman really wanted to win so he won' reasoning I am seeing here. Talk all you want of his mental blocks but it's essentially a 'win' button. Honestly, I don't find that appealing at all in a character. Superman simply overcomes any adversity because he IS Superman. Unfortunately, its as much a part of him just as any other attribute or ability he possesses.

While I respect Superman as an icon and for all the qualities he represents, I can't help but to see him as a fundamentally flawed character in terms of how he is written. Where I assume many see entertaining storytelling and awe-inspiring feats in regards to the character as of late, I see uninspired direction, poor reasoning, and a lack of any convincing development to the character. Now before anybody accuses me with the age old 'like you could do any better', I do not claim that I could, nor would I ever want to write the character as I've already stated my position on the subject.

However, I acknowledge that he is just as popular now as he ever was, so I can only conclude that the majority of readers are enjoying this new, albeit not so unfamiliar, exploration of the character.

Lastly, I enjoy reading Ahbi's posts. Such passion for the character. Ever the faithful and righteous defender of Superman. Its admirable.
Eh, its as much "win" button as power cosmic or mjolnir or a power ring. I don't see anybody complaining about anytime surfer or thor pull a new power to win.

Also thanks.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Eh, its as much "win" button as power cosmic or mjolnir or a power ring. I don't see anybody complaining about anytime surfer or thor pull a new power to win.

Also thanks.

The Power Cosmic is just that: a cosmic force, designed to operate on an entirely different level than Superman's own internal and solar-based power.

Mjolnir is an enchanted weapon possessing powerful magic, its not a big stretch for it to have a diverse set of capabilities.

Power rings are indeed powerful and versatile, I'll give you that, but they do have clearly defined limits though. They operate and depend on an outside energy source. Superman may absorb solar rays as his energy source but he's clearly displayed on numerous occasions that he neither needs it that much nor depends on it. How many times has he pulled of incredible feats under conditions which should dictate otherwise, situations such as being deprived of the sun for extended periods of time, functioning easily within proximity to Kryptonite, or even more surprising (not really) operating under a red sun?

I'm not well informed on Silver Surfer so you may have a point here, but Thor on the other hand has seemingly less powers now than before. I don't think we will see him conjure up some new power any time soon, if at all.

Originally posted by Orrsome28
The Power Cosmic is just that: a cosmic force, designed to operate on an entirely different level than Superman's own internal and solar-based power.

Mjolnir is an enchanted weapon possessing powerful magic, its not a big stretch for it to have a diverse set of capabilities.

Power rings are indeed powerful and versatile, I'll give you that, but they do have clearly defined limits though. They operate and depend on an outside energy source. Superman may absorb solar rays as his energy source but he's clearly displayed on numerous occasions that he neither needs it that much nor depends on it. How many times has he pulled of incredible feats under conditions which should dictate otherwise, situations such as being deprived of the sun for extended periods of time, functioning easily within proximity to Kryptonite, or even more surprising (not really) operating under a red sun?

I'm not well informed on Silver Surfer so you may have a point here, but Thor on the other hand has seemingly less powers now than before. I don't think we will see him conjure up some new power any time soon, if at all.
Maybe in surfer fanboys' dreams but in actual comics? Surfer is another top tier hero. He has his limits too albeit vaguely defined.

That again? Not true at all.

Heh, then you're not keeping up with thor. In the last few years, Thor's used energy manipulation, energy absorption, weather control (both earthly and cosmic in nature), Gaea-related earth powers, baffling prayer-related rejuvenation (in his fight with Glory), teleportation, spirit summoning (Cap), immortal resurrection, transmutation, EMPs (localized and worldwide), space ventriloquism, all-tongue universal language, intangible artifact deflection (Disir swords), energy signature tracking, forcefields, prayer-related cosmic senses, and more.

So, no. Thor is pulling new powers out of his ass as much as surfer.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Maybe in surfer fanboys' dreams but in actual comics? Surfer is another top tier hero. He has his limits too albeit vaguely defined.

That again? Not true at all.

Heh, then you're not keeping up with thor. In the last few years, Thor's used energy manipulation, energy absorption, weather control (both earthly and cosmic in nature), Gaea-related earth powers, baffling prayer-related rejuvenation (in his fight with Glory), teleportation, spirit summoning (Cap), immortal resurrection, transmutation, EMPs (localized and worldwide), space ventriloquism, all-tongue universal language, intangible artifact deflection (Disir swords), energy signature tracking, forcefields, prayer-related cosmic senses, and more.

So, no. Thor is pulling new powers out of his ass as much as surfer.

He wields but a fraction of the Power Cosmic which implies that it is on an entirely different level. I'm not quite sure what you meant by the fanboy comment. Surfer's limits are no less defined than Superman's.

Not true? If it quacks like a duck... its usually a duck. I'm sure someone came up with some elaborate reason as to why Superman can do all these things under such conditions but honestly it happens far too often and some are just outright too ridiculous for it to be remotely believable, even by comic book standards.

Most of those abilities can be attributed to Mjolnir, which like I said possesses powerful magic. A magic which, mind you, has not been deeply explored as to its limits. Others have a foundation in Thor's parentage. It's no less unlikely that Thor has latent abilities as a result. So to find this problematic is just a touch bit hypocritical. Personally I find the reasoning behind these powers more sound. You might not agree (strongly most likely). Besides, the frequency in which Thor uses these rabbit-out-of-a-hat powers is plain laughable. These powers usually hinder Thor's writing and in-comic performance anyway because no one even attempts to reconcile the scale and diversity of his power set with the team setting he is usually found in.

Like I said, I'm quite uneducated when it comes to the Surfer so I can't say otherwise.

So John Byrne says that Superman is as powerful as he wants to be (screw the Spectre, or Presence, or LT, or the One Above All,,,we have Superman), and in the same vain writes him being knocked out by an exploding gas station. Oh the irony.

Every hero holds back, including mindless brutes like Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
Every hero holds back, including mindless brutes like Hulk.

This really is true. Why is everybody giving Superman all of this credit when every single comic character with some sort of super strength has to hold back too? Spiderman's like a class 25 hero and do you think he isn't holding back when he hugs Aunt May, or slams MJ in the sack some nights? The Thing dated a blind woman. Do you think he held back when they got cozy? To say Superman holding back is different is just delusional.

Originally posted by DarkRaiden
Thor head up (over 200x stronger than Superman's shown strength by feats).


DAMN LIE OF THE CENTURY!

Simonson, Fraction, and Aaron wouldn't even be bold enough to make this outrageous claim.

Originally posted by h1a8
abstract beings are not physical. Thus They have no physical strength.

I understand what you are saying but you just can't say Thanos is stronger without a basis. How do we know he is stronger? What evidence do we have if we can't use crossovers? Outside of abstracts, physical beings needs feats to prove that they are stronger when comparing across companies. When comparing same companies then we can use direct comparison (although that evidence is weaker than feats). Characters with the better strength feats are stronger. That's how we know Namor is stronger than hawkman although they never fought.

Well if we use this type of thinkng Thanos has to be stronger than Superman, because I don't see Superman standing there after getting Mjolnir clubbed upon his head. Thanos wasn't thrown for a loop. Superman has been seen tossed around by far less than Thor. If you could lift 10 tons, this means that you become more durable than someone that only lifts 200 lbs. Thanos took Thor's hit like Thor was far weaker than he was. Do you know why that is?

Originally posted by tkitna
So John Byrne says that Superman is as powerful as he wants to be (screw the Spectre, or Presence, or LT, or the One Above All,,,we have Superman), and in the same vain writes him being knocked out by an exploding gas station. Oh the irony.
John Byrne didn't write him koed by gas station. That was Jerry Ordway.Originally posted by tkitna
This really is true. Why is everybody giving Superman all of this credit when every single comic character with some sort of super strength has to hold back too? Spiderman's like a class 25 hero and do you think he isn't holding back when he hugs Aunt May, or slams MJ in the sack some nights? The Thing dated a blind woman. Do you think he held back when they got cozy? To say Superman holding back is different is just delusional.

Originally posted by abhilegend
John Byrne didn't write him koed by gas station. That was Jerry Ordway.


I thought it was Byrne. My bad.