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Experience or Training, what makes a Jedi a powerful and masterful Swordsman? It is my belief that years of fighting against Dark Jedi is it what makes Jedi a powerful Duelist. Take Revan and Jaden Korr for example both lived in an age where lightsaber combat was common, both were highly skilled in Lightsaber dueling and were also highly strong in the force, and both(ironically) faced to powerful sith emperors - Vitiate for Revan, Marka Ragnos, for Jaden Korr,

I know the great quote everyone fall back "Great warrior hmm, wars not make one great" I highly doubt that quote from Yoda. Why? Well time and time has shown us that no matter how much you train against a more experienced opponent, you don't stand a chance. Take Anakin, Luke, and Maris brood, all three had some degree of training, but they where defeated(granted Luke had very little to no training) yet snaking had years of experience, yet he lost to a more experienced Duelist like Dooku. Maris, Shaak Ti's apprentice had many years of Training, yet she was overwhelmed by Starkiller's raw power and experience(having defeated several Great Jedi Like Shaak To and Rahm Kota,

In my opinion, you can be as skilled as you wanna be with a lightsaber or a force abilitiy, but in order to become more powerful you will need a great deal of experience through combat and application of any type of techniques. I believe that training can only take you so far, like Kreia said, you will need the contrast in order to fully understand(granted she was speaking about something else) I belief with experience and training one can become a great duellist but to rely on simple training is foolishness. Like I said before in order to become truly good at something one must train of course but you must also apply the technique in the heat of battle to truly become better at it, take the gun range of real life for example, you shoot cardboard cutouts that stand there, you could become a better shot but it takes experience(e.x hunting animals etc) in order to become a good shot. I mean there's a huge difference between a target that stand there and a moving. That is one of the reason I believe the PT order is one of the lesser ones compared to Luke NJO or Jedi Order of Ulic and Revan age. Due to them being very adept in lightsaber combat. And also due to the common use of lightsabers in Luke and Ulic's eras. Please share your opinions I'd love to hear from you guys.

Experience blows training away, look at Anakin vs Drallig.
Drallig, who has been training younger ones for years, yet seen little battle, is trashed by Anakin in like two swings, and yet Drallig is apparently a badass:


"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"
-Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil

http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/17/73/92/12/dralli10.jpg
-Star Wars Insider 87: Casually Report Order 66

"Deep within the Jedi Temple, an incredibly skilled swordsman and Jedi Master named Cin Drallig and his student Whie prepares for Vader's coming."
-Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Video Game

"An esteemed Jedi Master and a swordsman of nearly unparalleled skills...a most formidable opponent to anyone who would dare stand against the Jedi."
-Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Video Game Prima Guide

"An esteemed Jedi Master and a swordsman of great skill..."
-Star Wars Databanks

Yet Cin Drallig goes out like a punkass *****. Apparently, all Anakin needs to do to kill experienced older swordsmen is swing at them really hard/fast.

Anakin Skywalker had 13 years of saber training, roughly. That's a considerable amount of time, but he shouldn't have surpassed masters with decades of training IMO.

As I recall, Exar Kun was only in his twenties when he beat his 300 year old master.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yet Cin Drallig goes out like a punkass *****. Apparently, all Anakin needs to do to kill experienced older swordsmen is swing at them really hard/fast.

Anakin Skywalker had 13 years of saber training, roughly. That's a considerable amount of time, but he shouldn't have surpassed masters with decades of training IMO.
Luke is even worse. Trains for a few feeks or so, then duels Darth goddamn Vader as an equal.

Well, you could practice in mock duels. I assume they always do that at the temple. Yet you can't go by Drallig and Anakin. Anakin solo's anyone.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I recall, Exar Kun was only in his twenties when he beat his 300 year old master.

But Exar Kun was raised from infancy, and by the time we see his start of darkness, he's already a badass who's beaten Vodo several times. Anakin started off as a child, and then fast-forwards to being a punk taken out by Dooku like a talentless feeb, and then fast forwards even less time and he's tooling Cin Drallig and Dooku both.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Luke is even worse. Trains for a few feeks or so, then duels Darth goddamn Vader as an equal.

RotJ Vader was jobbing, unless you think Luke swinging like Ray Charles at the plate is superior to the Sith Lord's strength and technique.

Anakin is a prodigy as is Luke and Luke trained for 9 months before he was about equal to Vader.

A lot people would agrue that Luke and Anakin's defeat of great Jedi would be because of their Force Potential so I wont get into that because that is a long forsakened bridge I don't wanna cross. But going back to Exar, guys remember Vodo used a stick against a Saber. You can't really compare mock duels to Real duels IMO. And lastly. Cin Drallig was seriously overrated, I mean he's supposed to be a Jedi Battlemaster, yet he got destroyed by the newly crowned Vader. I feel sorry for the guy, he had a lot of potential. IMO

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yet Cin Drallig goes out like a punkass *****. Apparently, all Anakin needs to do to kill experienced older swordsmen is swing at them really hard/fast.

Anakin Skywalker had 13 years of saber training, roughly. That's a considerable amount of time, but he shouldn't have surpassed masters with decades of training IMO.
Realistically you can master any combat within 1-3 years. The rest is conditioning and strength levels, in this case Force power.

Originally posted by Arhael
Realistically you can master any combat within 1-3 years. The rest is conditioning and strength levels, in this case Force power.

Even though Niman explicitly requires ten plus years to master? And proficiency is defined as having done something successfully tens of thousands of times?

K.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But Exar Kun was raised from infancy, and by the time we see his start of darkness, he's already a badass who's beaten Vodo several times. Anakin started off as a child, and then fast-forwards to being a punk taken out by Dooku like a talentless feeb, and then fast forwards even less time and he's tooling Cin Drallig and Dooku both.

I don't see how that takes away from the fact that Vodo had over 10 times the experience and training than Kun did.

The fact is that natural talent and Force power are more important than both experience and training. Those two factors can take you to a certain level, but at a point it just stops mattering as much as someones innate ability as a swordsman and how far they can amp up their attributes. Dooku was more skilled than Dooku, but Anakin was skilled enough that Dooku couldn't really outskill him and it became a contest of power.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Even though Niman explicitly requires ten plus years to master? And proficiency is defined as having done something successfully tens of thousands of times?

K. In all fairness, Niman is a special case. It was stated in Fightsaber that the other forms of combat(excluding Forms II & VII, I'm assuming) can be mastered in 1 or 2 years:
http://i.imgur.com/uADY80H.jpg
(Apologies for the poor quality.)

This is further supported by Kenobi. He didn't change his combat style from Ataru to Soresu until after the events of AotC--yet by the time of RotS(a scant 3 years later), he'd evolved into one of THE top Soresu masters of all time. /shrug

I thought Kenobi studied Soresu after TPM, not after AOTC:

Nope, he changed his style to Soresu after the event's of AotC.

I disagree, with this. A person doesn't need to be battle hardened to be the most viable in a combat situation. Although experience does come with a lot of refinement and familiarity, it doesn't mean experience is superior ,per say, to training. A person with a lot of training that has never seen combat can still match or even out duel someone who has a lot of experience. Also a person with a lot of experience but very little training I see as at a disadvantage against someone who is properly trained. I do think training is superior to experience but only by a small margin. The trick is to find a healthy balance between the two.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nope, he changed his style to Soresu after the event's of AotC.
That's incredibly impressive he mastered it then in 3 years.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nope, he changed his style to Soresu after the event's of AotC.
Do you have any evidence? More out of curiosity than anything.

I thought he started studying Soresu after TPM because he saw its limitations against Maul, then he fully made the switch after AotC.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought he started studying Soresu after TPM because he saw its limitations against Maul, then he fully made the switch after AotC.
Same.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought he started studying Soresu after TPM because he saw its limitations against Maul, then he fully made the switch after AotC.

This is explicitly the case, as per Fightsaber. Fightsaber is based on interpretations of SW movies up to and including AotC, and Obi-Wan was the poster child for Soresu because of his perceived close shielding of his body and defensive measures.

That being said, it implies he had between 10-13 years of Soresu training before we see him in top form in RotS, some of that spent in practical combat against Dark Jedi/Sith/Grievous.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought he started studying Soresu after TPM because he saw its limitations against Maul, then he fully made the switch after AotC.
"Dooku smiled and ignited a red-glowing blade. Obi-Wan stepped slowly at first, then came on in a sudden rush, his blue blade coming in hard, right to left. But with only a slight movement, the red blade stabbed under the blue, then lifted up, and Obi-Wan's blade went flying harmlessly high of the mark. With a slight reversal of his wrist, Dooku stabbed straight ahead, and Obi-Wan had to throw himself backward. He brought his lightsaber across as he did, trying to parry, but Dooku had already retracted his blade by then and had settled back into perfect defensive posture. Against that posture, Obi-Wan's sudden flurry of attacks seemed exaggerated and inefficient, for Dooku defeated each, one after another, with a slight parry or dodge, seeming barely to move."

"Now, as the battle played out between the Count and Obi-Wan, the older way showed its brilliance. Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient. He followed a single line, front and back, his feet shifting to keep him constantly in perfect balance as he retreated and came on suddenly with devastating thrusts that had Obi-Wan stumbling backward."

"His words spurred Obi-Wan forward with another series of slashes and chops, but Dooku's red blade angled left and then right, then up just enough to send Obi-Wan's descending blade slipping off to the side."

"Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust."

-AotC

As you can see: during their battle in AotC, Kenobi primarily used offensive slash-attacks(ie. Ataru.) He may have had a working knowledge of Soresu at the time(it was the most popular form of combat in the Jedi Order, after all), but he certainly wasn't yet comfortable enough with the form to employ it in-battle.

This is also the reason why/how Kenobi was able to 'Form-fool' Dooku during their battle in RotS. He started out using the Form he'd battled Dooku with during AotC(ie. Ataru) and then switched to Soresu in an effort to throw Dooku off and give he and Anakin the edge. Pertinent excerpts from the novel can be provided if need be.

However, SM is right where Fightsaber is concerned. It does say that Kenobi took up a 'dedication to' Soresu in the wake of Qui-Gon's death in TPM. Although I'm not quite sure that a single line in Fightsaber is sufficient to contradict the happenings of 2 different novelizations..? /shrug

Considering Fightsaber's forms have gone on to be C-canon and the AotC novelisation is, IIRC, riddled with some inconsistency (nearly every novelisation but ANH has some inconsistencies, usually in the fight scenes), I would take the former's word over the latter.

You can see Salvatore at work though in the passage.

Likewise, I wouldn't put stock in "Form-fooling" either, for the same canon reasons.

Originally posted by Galan007
"Dooku smiled and ignited a red-glowing blade. Obi-Wan stepped slowly at first, then came on in a sudden rush, his blue blade coming in hard, right to left. But with only a slight movement, the red blade stabbed under the blue, then lifted up, and Obi-Wan's blade went flying harmlessly high of the mark. With a slight reversal of his wrist, Dooku stabbed straight ahead, and Obi-Wan had to throw himself backward. He brought his lightsaber across as he did, trying to parry, but Dooku had already retracted his blade by then and had settled back into perfect defensive posture. Against that posture, Obi-Wan's sudden flurry of attacks seemed exaggerated and inefficient, for Dooku defeated each, one after another, with a slight parry or dodge, seeming barely to move."

"Now, as the battle played out between the Count and Obi-Wan, the older way showed its brilliance. Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient. He followed a single line, front and back, his feet shifting to keep him constantly in perfect balance as he retreated and came on suddenly with devastating thrusts that had Obi-Wan stumbling backward."

"His words spurred Obi-Wan forward with another series of slashes and chops, but Dooku's red blade angled left and then right, then up just enough to send Obi-Wan's descending blade slipping off to the side."

"Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust."

-AotC

As you can see: during their battle in AotC, Kenobi primarily used offensive slash-attacks(ie. Ataru.) He may have had a working knowledge of Soresu at the time(it was the most popular form of combat in the Jedi Order, after all), but he certainly wasn't yet comfortable enough with the form to employ it in-battle.

This is also the reason why/how Kenobi was able to 'Form-fool' Dooku during their battle in RotS. He started out using the Form he'd battled Dooku with during AotC(ie. Ataru) and then switched to Soresu in an effort to throw Dooku off and give he and Anakin the edge. Pertinent excerpts from the novel can be provided if need be.

However, SM is right where Fightsaber is concerned. It does say that Kenobi took up a 'dedication to' Soresu in the wake of Qui-Gon's death in TPM. Although I'm not quite sure that a single line in Fightsaber is sufficient to contradict the happenings of 2 different novelizations..? /shrug

Uh, yes. Kenobi was still using Ataru in AotC, but he had been studying Soresu before then. Thats what I said.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Considering Fightsaber's forms have gone on to be C-canon and the AotC novelisation is, IIRC, riddled with some inconsistency (nearly every novelisation but ANH has some inconsistencies, usually in the fight scenes), I would take the former's word over the latter.

You can see Salvatore at work though in the passage.

Likewise, I wouldn't put stock in "Form-fooling" either, for the same canon reasons. I'd actually disagree on this particular scene being inconsistent. In the film itself we can actually see that Kenobi is initially attacking Dooku with rather aggressive slash-type attacks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYw5KWTe15I
There is also a mid-duel cut-scene, wherein the novelization's description of the full battle would 'level-up' in canonicity, as it can be used to fill the gaps.

Nowadays the Form-fooling thing likely isn't canon, given the numerous battles Kenobi/Anakin had with Dooku during TCW. I was mainly referring to when the novels were originally published, as that was definitely the intent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, yes. Kenobi was still using Ataru in AotC, but he had been studying Soresu before then. Thats what I said. Cool.

I'd agree that Kenobi went from having some sort of ambiguous working knowledge of Soresu, as most Jedi of the time did, to becoming one of THE most elite Soresu masters of all time(and certainly the best of that era.) In 3 years.

Pretty phuckin good, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
to becoming THE most elite Soresu master of all time.

Proof? Or absurd speculation?

Yeah, edited for argument's sake.

Mace Windu calls him basically that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace Windu calls him basically that.



He also has that Sokan thing, which I think they developed because he did an offensive move or barrel rolled.

I need more Excedrin for this nonsense.

Oddly enough, I woke up with a massive headache this morning *h5, allergies* yet 1,500mg of Excedrin and 2 cups of coffee later, you have still managed to increase my hed paynz. sneer

I demand tribute.