Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Starbrand

Gonna go with the woman that caused the LT to have a *** fit.

Hey Zop

Originally posted by zopzop
Gonna go with the woman that caused the LT to have a *** fit.

No way in hell she's beating Adam. She lost that contest with LT and cried like the b!tch she is.

Ereshkigal was a potential peer to the Abstracts (although she could have given LT a fight which would have devastated the multiverse, while they were inside the nexus), IG is above them. That makes Warlock > Ereshkigal.

As for Maelstrom (who also had CA, and QB apart from Anomaly's power), he was apparently superior to the IG, despite the fact that the IG clearly possesses greater raw power (it can casually destroy a universe, unlike Maelstrom), and it technically should be above abstract such as anomaly.

So it should be something like Maelstrom > Warlock > Ereshkigal, if we go by the encounters.

But based on raw power, it'd be Warlock > Ereshkigal > Maelstrom.

I would take Adam

Originally posted by operator616

Ereshkigal was a potential peer to the Abstracts (although she could have given LT a fight which would have devastated the multiverse, while they were inside the nexus), IG is above them. That makes Warlock > Ereshkigal.
Although she wasn't going to give the LT a fight imo.
The multiversal danger was due to the location a struggle may have ensued. (nexus)

LT clearly stated his power was above hers, and as you mentioned at best,
she was a potential peer to the abstracts below the LT. (according to the context of his claim)

Aside from trying to harness the Nexus and unbalancing LC a bit via said Nexus,
Erishkigel was kinda of a joke imo.
She also needed the nexus Guardians to merge with her power in
order to even become a viable threat withIN the Nexus.
Originally posted by operator616

As for Maelstrom (who also had CA, and QB apart from Anomaly's power), he was apparently superior to the IG, despite the fact that the IG clearly possesses greater raw power (it can casually destroy a universe, unlike Maelstrom), and it technically should be above abstract such as anomaly.
When did Maelstrom ever defeat or show superiority to the IG?

Maelstrom (amped ridiculously) got stalemate by an Infinity powered Quasar. Then ultimately lost via plot.

IG curbstomped Eternity in one move.

Eternity=Infinity=Oblivion=Death

Which tells us the Maelstrom moment (although nothing really happened)
was either PIS, or the fact that Thanos had just acquired the IG made him less than all-powerful.
Remember, the wielders have to adapt, and even Thanos adapted slower than Magus.

I chalk it up to it taking place in a Quasar book, where Maelstrom had a mission
and said mission's time to be thwarted by Quasar was to take place in later books.
The Thanos scene? Completely pointless. (Gruenwald loved to get high so)
Originally posted by operator616

Warlock > Ereshkigal > Maelstrom.
In every way shape of form.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Although she wasn't going to give the LT a fight imo.
The multiversal danger was due to the location a struggle may have ensued. (nexus)

LT clearly stated his power was above hers, and as you mentioned at best,
she was a potential peer to the abstracts below the LT. (according to the context of his claim)
Mr. M, the LT clearly told her that if he engaged her directly it would cause more multiversal damage than her tampering with the Nexus.

The location had nothing to do with why he wanted to avoid fighting her.

Also, he threatened to enlist the mighty of the multiverse to attack her if she didn't desist. He didn't even threaten Adam Warlock like that during their showdown.

I agree that the current Starbrand is a joke, but Gruenwald clearly had a different opinion (and keep in mind he was the guy that wrote Maelstrom laughing in the face of an IG blast).

^ Except for the fact that they were in the nexus when he said that.

what the LT was telling her, is that their fight was going to cause consequences even greater than what she was going to do with the congress (by shifting the cosmic axis). But non of that changes the fact that in both cases, it was via the nexus.

So what that means is: Ereshkigal energies combined with LT's > Erishkigal's energies combined with the congress.

Which makes sense.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Although she wasn't going to give the LT a fight imo.
The multiversal danger was due to the location a struggle may have ensued. (nexus)

LT clearly stated his power was above hers, and as you mentioned at best,
she was a potential peer to the abstracts below the LT. (according to the context of his claim)

Aside from trying to harness the Nexus and unbalancing LC a bit via said Nexus,
Erishkigel was kinda of a joke imo.
She also needed the nexus Guardians to merge with her power in
order to even become a viable threat withIN the Nexus.


LT himself said that if they fight then the cosmos would be devastated, which was the multiverse, since he specified that the effects of their fight would have consequences worse than what she did with the cosmic axis, which was multiversal in scope, but all that is due to the nexus, like you said, and like i previously mentioned. But point is, the fact that their fight would devastate reality means that she could have given him a fight, otherwise there wouldn't be any effect if it was as one-sided as you're suggesting. Basically same thing happened with Warlock, LT didn't want to fight Warlock since it would have devastated the 616 reality.

Although if you interpret the LT statement as LT saying that he's gonna one-shot her in a blast that would affect all reality (via nexus), then that's fine, it's your opinion. My opinion on this matter, is that LT was saying that she could give him a fight, which would affect reality (via the nexus), but ultimately he'd defeat her.

Also, before teaming up with some of the congress, she was able to do some damage across realities. It was even mentioned that in the mainstream reality, the entire milky way was threatened:

http://i.imgur.com/tbhUY4l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hKtCiYZ.jpg

And that's how the nexus guardians recognized her power, when she sent shockwaves across realities (through the nexus, of course). She then recruited some of them to simple cause even greater damage.

Originally posted by Mr Master

When did Maelstrom ever defeat or show superiority to the IG?

Maelstrom (amped ridiculously) got stalemate by an Infinity powered Quasar. Then ultimately lost via plot.

IG curbstomped Eternity in one move.

Eternity=Infinity=Oblivion=Death

Which tells us the Maelstrom moment (although nothing really happened)
was either PIS, or the fact that Thanos had just acquired the IG made him less than all-powerful.
Remember, the wielders have to adapt, and even Thanos adapted slower than Magus.

I chalk it up to it taking place in a Quasar book, where Maelstrom had a mission
and said mission's time to be thwarted by Quasar was to take place in later books.
The Thanos scene? Completely pointless. (Gruenwald loved to get high so)


Well, Thanos wanted to blast Maelstrom into oblivion, and failed, and there's a handbook that interprets this as Maelstrom being superior to Thanos. But i get your point, there are too many contradictions. Anomaly is an abstract, and all abstract are well below the IG.

Although at the time of Quasar #24, IG wasn't established to be well above the abstracts including Eternity. So Gruenwald couldn't have taken that into account.

Originally posted by zopzop

Mr. M, the LT clearly told her that if he engaged her directly it would cause more multiversal damage than her tampering with the Nexus.
The location had nothing to do with why he wanted to avoid fighting her.
The location had everything to do with it since it was all taking place withIN the Nexus.
Who/what Erishkigel before entering the Nexus and merging with the Guardians? Exactly ... a nobody/nothing.
Originally posted by zopzop

Also, he threatened to enlist the mighty of the multiverse to attack her if she didn't desist. He didn't even threaten Adam Warlock like that during their showdown.
Senseless after he had just stated his power was above hers. (high Gruenwald at play)

Regardless, the LT came basically with TOAA's power to challenge Warlock.

... not to mention that Warlock specifically stated afterwards it was TOAA that was above him. (heck, LT too)
Originally posted by zopzop

Gruenwald clearly had a different opinion (and keep in mind he was the guy that wrote Maelstrom laughing in the face of an IG blast).
I don't remember Maelstrom doing that.
I recall Maelstrom seemingly obliterated, and then, re-appearing to talk some shit and leave.

Malestrom's body couldn't even sustain the pressure of a black hole. The Space Gem alone could've crushed him. Malestrom also said that he needed to be cautious due to the fact that Thanos may not "be adept" in using the gems just yet so we can attribute it to that. One things for sure.....he sure didn't stick around to find out.

As for Erishkigal, the nexus stuff was all fine and dandy but she has no battle feats and she was only considered a potential peer by LT to beings who were one shot imprisoned by Thanos and then were latter floored by Adam in cosmic court. No comparison IMO.

Originally posted by operator616
^ Except for the fact that they were in the nexus when he said that.


Then why not simply teleport her away (we've seen him do that with Sliorath), if she was nothing to him, then pound her into oblivion?

Why threaten to bring in the mighty of the multiverse to attack her in the Nexus if it was such a precarious location?

He KNEW what was up with the Starbrand in the hands of a competent user and wanted no part of it (he avoided the fight a second time when he changed his mind about sending the New Universe Earth back to it's correct reality lest he unleash Skeletron with the Starbrand).

Also did you notice his demeanor when facing Eriskegal vs Adam Warlock? There was a sense of panic there with Eriskegal that wasn't there when he was staring down Adam with the IG.

Once the IG was under the LT's authority he shut it down. Once the Starbrand was in his possession he couldn't do anything to it except send it back to Kayla on the downlow.
Originally posted by Mr Master
The location had everything to do with it since it was all taking place withIN the Nexus.
Who/what Erishkigel before entering the Nexus and merging with the Guardians? Exactly ... a nobody/nothing.

Senseless after he had just stated his power was above hers. (high Gruenwald at play)

Regardless, the LT came basically with TOAA's power to challenge Warlock.

... not to mention that Warlock specifically stated afterwards it was TOAA that was above him. (heck, LT too)

I don't remember Maelstrom doing that.
I recall Maelstrom seemingly obliterated, and then, re-appearing to talk some shit and leave.
I know how you feel about this my friend. I just think you are underselling the classic Starbrand in the hands of a competent user.

Originally posted by operator616
^ Except for the fact that they were in the nexus when he said that.
what the LT was telling her, is that their fight was going to cause consequences even greater than what she was going to do with the congress (by shifting the cosmic axis). But non of that changes the fact that in both cases, it was via the nexus.

So what that means is: Ereshkigal energies combined with LT's > Erishkigal's energies combined with the congress.

Which makes sense.

Originally posted by operator616

LT himself said that if they fight then the cosmos would be devastated, which was the multiverse, since he specified that the effects of their fight would have consequences worse than what she did with the cosmic axis, which was multiversal in scope, but all that is due to the nexus, like you said, and like i previously mentioned.
Yep.
Originally posted by operator616

But point is, the fact that their fight would devastate reality means that she could have given him a fight, otherwise there wouldn't be any effect if it was as one-sided as you're suggesting.
Imo, it's just exercising power aggressively withIN the Nexus that's dangerous.
This is why these all Nexus entrances are guarded, cause the Nexus itself can be exploited.
Originally posted by operator616

Basically same thing happened with Warlock, LT didn't want to fight Warlock since it would have devastated the 616 reality.
Not the same thing since Warlock/LT were not within a Nexus,
but rather withIN the Dimension of Manifestations.
Also, I'd stray from comparing IG to Starbrand.
Originally posted by operator616

Although if you interpret the LT statement as LT saying that he's gonna one-shot her in a blast that would affect all reality (via nexus), then that's fine, it's your opinion. My opinion on this matter, is that LT was saying that she could give him a fight, which would affect reality (via the nexus), but ultimately he'd defeat her.
I disagree, but that's cool.
Erishkigel never did anything that warrants her giving the LT any kind of trouble.
Originally posted by operator616

Also, before teaming up with some of the congress, she was able to do some damage across realities. It was even mentioned that in the mainstream reality, the entire milky way threatened:
http://i.imgur.com/tbhUY4l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hKtCiYZ.jpg
And that's how the nexus guardians recognized her power, when she sent shockwaves across realities (through the nexus, of course). She then recruited some of them to simple cause even greater damage.
Ok, I knew that, but I don't see how it upgrades my view of her good friend.
Accessing multiple realities via a Nexus is moot because, they're using a Nexus.
Also, she slightly shifted the cosmic axis with her shockwave but again,
because the shockwaves were let off withIN the Nexus.

Research Erishkigel/Starbrand before she entered the Nexus,
you'll surprise me if you find anything Global.
I remember she expended vast amounts of energy just to open a dimensional portal. lol
Originally posted by operator616

But i get your point, there are too many contradictions. Anomaly is an abstract, and all abstract are well below the IG.

Originally posted by operator616

Although at the time of Quasar #24, IG wasn't established to be well above the abstracts including Eternity. So Gruenwald couldn't have taken that into account.
Good point. Thanos was also a complete newb at that point.
Gruenwald mentioned this too when Maelstrom was approaching Thanos.
It's possible Gruenwald used that as his excuse and we're just missing it.

Originally posted by Sundipped

Malestrom's body couldn't even sustain the pressure of a black hole. The Space Gem alone could've crushed him. Malestrom also said that he needed to be cautious due to the fact that Thanos may not "be adept" in using the gems just yet so we can attribute it to that. One things for sure.....he sure didn't stick around to find out.

As for Erishkigal, the nexus stuff was all fine and dandy but she has no battle feats and she was only considered a potential peer by LT to beings who were one shot imprisoned by Thanos and then were latter floored by Adam in cosmic court. No comparison IMO.


There's also the fact that the Incomplete IG (while Magus/Warlock battled over it)
operated across countless universeS, across the entire Multiverse in fact,
in fact, they ended up at the farthest edges of the Multiverse ... and from there,
froze all reality, Ended all reality, and Remade all reality. swank
heck,
there were still Time Ripples lingering 1000 Years in the Future surrounding Reality-691 witnessed by Strange.

All On Panel baby!

Oh yea, Mr M found that latest edition.

Now let's try and imagine the possibilities of the complete IG.
(when Thanos said Incomplete IG was but a taste of Godhood)
No wonder Starlin had em say he was Supreme of ALL UniverseS,
no wonder the LT came with TOAA's power to challenge Warlock)

Originally posted by zopzop
Then why not simply teleport her away (we've seen him do that with Sliorath), if she was nothing to him, then pound her into oblivion?

Why threaten to bring in the mighty of the multiverse to attack her in the Nexus if it was such a precarious location?

He KNEW what was up with the Starbrand in the hands of a competent user and wanted no part of it (he avoided the fight a second time when he changed his mind about sending the New Universe Earth back to it's correct reality lest he unleash Skeletron with the Starbrand).

Also did you notice his demeanor when facing Eriskegal vs Adam Warlock? There was a sense of panic there with Eriskegal that wasn't there when he was staring down Adam with the IG.

Once the IG was under the LT's authority he shut it down. Once the Starbrand was in his possession he couldn't do anything to it except send it back to Kayla on the downlow.


So what you're trying to say, is that the Starbrand is a multiversal power?

Let's flip the question, then: Why did Ereshigal need the nexus, and then the congress, if she has a multiversal power? Id really like an explanation for that.

You're still not realizing the difference between the two instances. There was a greater panic in the Ereshkigal instance because their fight would devastate the multiverse (which was only because they were inside the nexus and not any other reason). while in the Warlock instance it was specified that it would have destroyed the 616-reality only and no the whole multiverse.

Actually, i realize exactly what's the difference between the two. IG was clearly a greater threat power-wise, while the starbrand due to its nature of being present from a different multiverse, was the reason of it being an actual threat, and could upset the balance in the multiverse. This was stated several times. In the Ereshkigal instance (Quasar #49):

http://i.imgur.com/pRkal5a.jpg?2

And here's another example from Quasar #57, LT saying it:

http://i.imgur.com/qOPES9Z.jpg

Originally posted by operator616
So what you're trying to say, is that the Starbrand is a multiversal power?

Let's flip the question, then: Why did Ereshigal need the nexus, and then the congress, if she has a multiversal power? Id really like an explanation for that.

You're still not realizing the difference between the two instances. There was a greater panic in the Ereshkigal instance because their fight would devastate the multiverse (which was only because they were inside the nexus and not any other reason). while in the Warlock instance it was specified that it would have destroyed the 616-reality only and no the whole multiverse.

Actually, i realize exactly what's the difference between the two. IG was clearly a greater threat power-wise, while the starbrand due to its nature of being present from a different multiverse, was the reason of it being an actual threat, and could upset the balance in the multiverse. This was stated several times. In the Ereshkigal instance (Quasar #49):

http://i.imgur.com/pRkal5a.jpg?2

And here's another example from Quasar #57, LT saying it:

http://i.imgur.com/qOPES9Z.jpg


Originally posted by operator616

while in the Warlock instance it was specified that it would have destroyed the 616-reality only and no the whole multiverse.
The Dimension of Manifestations actually.

Still, it's funny when Warlock and Magus/Incomplete IG blew up the Entire Multiverse in their struggle.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Not the same thing since Warlock/LT were not within a Nexus,
but rather withIN the Dimension of Manifestations.
Also, I'd stray from comparing IG to Starbrand.


By "same" i meant that in both of those instances, LT didn't want to fight because it would damage reality.

But Warlock/LT would have definitely damaged the 616-reality only, since LT said it would lay waste to "this reality", which clearly isn't a reference to the DoM but rather 616-reality (much like when Warlock referred to Eternity as being the embodiment of "this" reality, clearly referring to the 616-reality, since we both know that Eternity isn't the embodiment of DoM).

I wasn't comparing IG and Starbrand power-wise.

Originally posted by Mr Master

I disagree, but that's cool.
Erishkigel never did anything that warrants her giving the LT any kind of trouble.

Ok, I knew that, but I don't see how it upgrades my view of her good friend.
Accessing multiple realities via a Nexus is moot because, they're using a Nexus.
Also, she slightly shifted the cosmic axis with her shockwave but again,
because the shockwaves were let off withIN the Nexus.

Research Erishkigel/Starbrand before she entered the Nexus,
you'll surprise me if you find anything Global.
I remember she expended vast amounts of energy just to open a dimensional portal. lol


Well you said that without the congress, she never did anything within the nexus, so i referred you to that scene. And imo, it's impressive (perhaps the most impressive thing she did, but clearly not IG-impressive). She sent shockwaves into each one of those holes (each one leading to a different reality), and in the 616-reality she threatened milky way, so presumable it had similar effects on other realities. That's worth mentioning, imo.

Originally posted by Mr Master


Good point. Thanos was also a complete newb at that point.
Gruenwald mentioned this too when Maelstrom was approaching Thanos.
It's possible Gruenwald used that as his excuse and we're just missing it.

Yeah, that's possible.

Originally posted by operator616
So what you're trying to say, is that the Starbrand is a multiversal power?

Let's flip the question, then: Why did Ereshigal need the nexus, and then the congress, if she has a multiversal power? Id really like an explanation for that.

You're still not realizing the difference between the two instances. There was a greater panic in the Ereshkigal instance because their fight would devastate the multiverse (which was only because they were inside the nexus and not any other reason). while in the Warlock instance it was specified that it would have destroyed the 616-reality only and no the whole multiverse.

Actually, i realize exactly what's the difference between the two. IG was clearly a greater threat power-wise, while the starbrand due to its nature of being present from a different multiverse, was the reason of it being an actual threat, and could upset the balance in the multiverse. This was stated several times. In the Ereshkigal instance (Quasar #49):

http://i.imgur.com/pRkal5a.jpg?2

And here's another example from Quasar #57, LT saying it:

http://i.imgur.com/qOPES9Z.jpg
I fully realize what you are saying, that she was only a threat because of where the battle took place.

What I'm saying is, why didn't the LT simply erase her from existence if she was nothing to him?

Why not move the battle to a location where he wouldn't worry about the Nexus, since she was nothing to him, he could have easily moved her against her will no?

Why threaten to enlist the mighty of the multiverse to attack her at such a delicate location if the whole reason he wanted to avoid fighting her was because of the damage a fight like that would cause to the Nexus and hence all reality? Since she was nothing to him, why even threaten to enlist a multiversal posse to attack her? He could have done it by himself no?

Even against Warlock with the IG, he didn't threaten to attack him with a multiversal posse despite the damage they would cause to the Dimension of Manifestations.

Originally posted by Mr Master

The Dimension of Manifestations actually.

Still, it's funny when Warlock and Magus/Incomplete IG blew up the Entire Multiverse in their struggle.

I realize that they were in the DoM. Non of that changes that they referred to 616-reality as "this reality".

Same comic, Eternity says that he's the embodiment all there is in this universe, despite being in the DoM:

http://i.imgur.com/CkSBLuU.jpg?1

That means that Eternity is the embodiment of DoM? I think not.

There are several examples in that same comic. Re-read it. Of course there are other examples from other comics, which im sure you're aware of. Just because LT said that it would lay waste to "this reality" doesn't mean its DoM.

Originally posted by zopzop
I fully realize what you are saying, that she was only a threat because of where the battle took place.

What I'm saying is, why didn't the LT simply erase her from existence if she was nothing to him?

Why not move the battle to a location where he wouldn't worry about the Nexus, since she was nothing to him, he could have easily moved her against her will no?

Why threaten to enlist the mighty of the multiverse to attack her at such a delicate location if the whole reason he wanted to avoid fighting her was because of the damage a fight like that would cause to the Nexus and hence all reality? Since she was nothing to him, why even threaten to enlist a multiversal posse to attack her? He could have done it by himself no?

Even against Warlock with the IG, he didn't threaten to attack him with a multiversal posse despite the damage they would cause to the Dimension of Manifestations.

Well, she had a power source which is alien to the mainstream multiverse, and was upsetting its balance, so it's possible that's what keeping LT from doing that....or for plot reasons.

I never said that she was nothing to him, read my posts, i said that she could give him a fight. Also, right on the same page that he said that he'd enlist the mighty powers of the multiverse to fight her, he said that she couldn't withstand his power. I still don't get the point of these questions. Are you suggesting that she's more powerful than LT? or a multiversal power?

The Warlock/LT fight would have been only limited to the 616 reality not DoM (already explained).

Originally posted by operator616

By "same" i meant that in both of those instances, LT didn't want to fight because it would damage reality.

But Warlock/LT would have definitely damaged the 616-reality only, since LT said it would lay waste to "this reality", which clearly isn't a reference to the DoM but rather 616-reality (much like when Warlock referred to Eternity as being the embodiment of "this" reality, clearly referring to the 616-reality, since we both know that Eternity isn't the embodiment of DoM).
I disagree. The LT, actually no one ever stated it was the 616 reality, so it's not obvious.

What is a fact though, is that the DoM is outside Eternity.

When Eternity said I am this uni, .. I'm sure he meant the uni he represents.
Originally posted by operator616

Well you said that without the congress, she never did anything within the nexus, so i referred you to that scene. And imo, it's impressive (perhaps the most impressive thing she did, but clearly not IG-impressive). She sent shockwaves into each one of those holes (each one leading to a different reality), and in the 616-reality she threatened milky way, so presumable it had similar effects on other realities. That's worth mentioning, imo.
Actually, I believe I said or meant without the Nexus she never did anything.
Also, I don't believe she was exercising galactic power,
it was the slight cosmic axis shift that cause that potential danger.
Again, a feat achievable withIN the Nexus.
Originally posted by operator616

I realize that they were in the DoM. Non of that changes that they referred to 616-reality as "this reality".
Same comic, Eternity says that he's the embodiment all there is in this universe, despite being in the DoM:
http://i.imgur.com/CkSBLuU.jpg?1
That means that Eternity is the embodiment of DoM? I think not.

There are several examples in that same comic. Re-read it. Of course there are other examples from other comics, which im sure you're aware of. Just because LT said that it would lay waste to "this reality" doesn't mean its DoM.
I don't need to re-read it since I know the IG arc by heart.
They were in the DoM which is located Outside Eternity.
There is no concrete proof that establishes LT's reference as the 616 reality.

Eternity was referring to himself, not his surroundings imo.

Anyway, if they were going to destroy 616 (as in yur opinion)
then they were going to destroy 616 and the DoM. (definitely not just 616)

Originally posted by zopzop

Even against Warlock with the IG, he didn't threaten to attack him with a multiversal posse despite the damage they would cause to the Dimension of Manifestations.
Zop, what are ya arguing here?

The Incomplete IG blew up the entire Multiverse and remade it.

... thread.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Zop, what are ya arguing here?

The Incomplete IG blew up the entire Multiverse and remade it.

... thread.
Yet the LT didn't see it fit to intervene. But he not only PERSONALLY stepped in to attempt to stop Erishkigal he threatened her with a posse of the mighty of the multiverse.

That speaks volumes.

Originally posted by zopzop

Yet the LT didn't see it fit to intervene. But he not only PERSONALLY stepped in to attempt to stop Erishkigal he threatened her with a posse of the mighty of the multiverse.

LT didn't step in cause the IG makes one the legitimate God over reality.
In case yu forgot good friend, the LT was asked to step in with Thanos,
and these detailed reasons were given.

As for silly Erishkigel: Don't remember guy giving her the in-comic stipulations she was blessed with,
like her merging with the Congress and having solo access to the Nexus.
LT saying he's enlisting others to stomp her is just poor writing,
especially after he had just stated he was above her power.

Anyway, based on feats and reason Erishkigel gets wtfstomped by Warlock.
Even if Warlock were given the Incomplete IG he would wtfstomp Erishkigel.

Dude re-created the entire Multiverse after it had just exploded in his struggle with Magus. (Incomplete IG)

No need for a Nexus.

^ Regarding re-creating the multiverse: I don't see anything that suggests that except a statement from a Moon Knight tie-in saying that it will determine the fate of the multiverse. Which is contradicted.

Originally posted by operator616

^ Regarding re-creating the multiverse: I don't see anything that suggests that except a statement from a Moon Knight tie-in saying that it will determine the fate of the multiverse. Which is contradicted.

When Warlock and Magus struggled over the Incomplete IG, it was a confrontation spanning Countless UniverseS:



-----------------------------------------------------


We know this meant the Multiverse, because the Entire Multiverse was in jeopardy:



-----------------------------------------------------


We're given further clarification that their struggle was Multiversal
because they ended up at "the farthest edges of the Multiverse:"

Where "Reality explodes!



-----------------------------------------------------


We know this meant the Multiverse exploding because from the farthest edges of the Multiverse,
the 616 Universe was destroyed and remade:



-----------------------------------------------------


To cement this as absolute fact, we have Dr Strange 1000 Years in the Future, witnessing Time Ripples outside Reality-691.

Time Ripples caused by the Warlock/Magus/Incomplete IG battle.



==============================


As an unbiased reasonable debater you are, I think you'll agree.

Now we can all use this as reference to unequivocally claim the IG was trully Multiversal.
Well, I mean if the Incomplete IG could explode and remake the Multiverse that is.

Originally posted by Mr Master
When Warlock and Magus struggled over the Incomplete IG, it was a confrontation spanning Countless UniverseS:





Let's post the rest of that scan:

http://i.imgur.com/HADIfo8.jpg?1

".....for the fate of the universe"

So according to this, the universe, and not the multiverse, is threatened.

Originally posted by Mr Master

We know this meant the Multiverse, because the Entire Multiverse was in jeopardy:

-----------------------------------------------------
We're given further clarification that their struggle was Multiversal
because they ended up at "the farthest edges of the Multiverse:"
Where "Reality explodes!

-----------------------------------------------------
We know this meant the Multiverse exploding because from the farthest edges of the Multiverse,
the 616 Universe was destroyed and remade:



Figured you'd used that.

Anyway, let's look at this, from those Moon Knight tie-ins:

http://i.imgur.com/OzxsXqb.jpg?1

"a universe torn asunder"

Yeah, these kind of comments tend to get thrown around (concerning the multiverse being threatened, see below), but we must look at the bigger picture here. Apart from that single comment there's nothing to suggest what you're saying. Being in the "farthest edge of the multiverse" doesn't mean much.

In the IG arc, same thing happened, Thanos was indirectly referred to as a multiversal threat, in Dr Strange v3 #32:

http://i.imgur.com/oRB9wE5.jpg?1

Despite the fact that it was made clear he was universal.

Nothing new.

Also, before the Warlock/Magus scene, when Magus acquired the IG, it's attributed to changing the fate of an actuality (a universe):

http://i.imgur.com/qucQIb8.jpg?1

That supports my argument that it was universal. Not to mention that Eternity/Infinity defeated that IG. It was confirmed later that it was universal Eternity (when he said "this universe" that is I), and the handbooks also support that it was universal versions.

Originally posted by Mr Master

To cement this as absolute fact, we have Dr Strange 1000 Years in the Future, witnessing Time Ripples outside Reality-691.

Time Ripples caused by the Warlock/Magus/Incomplete IG battle.





We've been over this. that GOGT #33 scene, doesn't mention anything about Warlock/Magus.

Originally posted by Mr Master

As an unbiased reasonable debater you are, I think you'll agree.

Now we can all use this as reference to unequivocally claim the IG was trully Multiversal.
Well, I mean if the Incomplete IG could explode and remake the Multiverse that is.

Thanks, but sorry, i don't agree.

Nope. That's not news to me. Ive been aware of this before, and had it been the case, i would have acknowledged IG being fully multiversal before.

well, there is an obvious solution to the quandary you gentlemen find yourself in.......

i tend to agree with whomever has said eresh was powerful enough to pose a challenge to lt. a greater challenge than adam would have? impossible to say since we didn't see either battle, but i think the intent was clear: her vs lt was gonna cause a whole lot of trouble for everything. i think the difference between adam and her is only a few degrees either way. ig has more feats, obviously, so i'd likely go with him, but i don't think it's a sure thing.

as for maelstrom--i think in that arc he was intended to be on par with thanos. we even saw a what if where that was depicted as true as the quasar canon book. again, intent seems clear to me. i was always under the impression that it was the q-bands though that were the major source of his power. he even refers to them as a source of infinite power. i think maybe he was tapping them in a way most don't. at least, without going back to look it up, that was my impression. maybe it's a mis-recollection, but it always sort of fit for me.

Originally posted by operator616
Let's post the rest of that scan:
http://i.imgur.com/HADIfo8.jpg?1
".....for the fate of the universe"
So according to this, the universe, and not the multiverse, is threatened.
Figured you'd used that.
Anyway, let's look at this, from those Moon Knight tie-ins:
http://i.imgur.com/OzxsXqb.jpg?1
"a universe torn asunder"
Yeah, these kind of comments tend to get thrown around (concerning the multiverse being threatened, see below), but we must look at the bigger picture here. Apart from that single comment there's nothing to suggest what you're saying. Being in the "farthest edge of the multiverse" doesn't mean much.
In the IG arc, same thing happened, Thanos was indirectly referred to as a multiversal threat, in Dr Strange v3 #32:
http://i.imgur.com/oRB9wE5.jpg?1
Despite the fact that it was made clear he was universal.
Nothing new.
Also, before the Warlock/Magus scene, when Magus acquired the IG, it's attributed to changing the fate of an actuality (a universe):
http://i.imgur.com/qucQIb8.jpg?1
That supports my argument that it was universal. Not to mention that Eternity/Infinity defeated that IG. It was confirmed later that it was universal Eternity (when he said "this universe" that is I), and the handbooks also support that it was universal versions.
We've been over this. that GOGT #33 scene, doesn't mention anything about Warlock/Magus.
Thanks, but sorry, i don't agree.
Nope. That's not news to me. Ive been aware of this before, and had it been the case, i would have acknowledged IG being fully multiversal before.
I guess we disagree.

From where I stand, the Incomplete IG exploded the Multiverse once Eternity/Infinity joined the battle.

Then Warlock remade all that shit. Simple.

I proved my point with the scans, you had your point and that's that.
Anyway, no different than the arguments made for lucifer's universe made multiverse.

btw. "A universe torn asunder" is referring to the 616 reality cause that's where the FF just landed:



Why would the writer use the term "Multiverse" in reference to the magnitude here,
to then make it so it's juts a single universe at play here.

That would be senseless.

Also, GOGT scene literally states that the Time Ripples are a residual effect of the Infinity War.

Please now do tells us,
at what point did the Incomplete IG possibly affect an area located outside an Alternate-Universe 1000 Years in the Future?

*edit: Actually, it was across all Time, since Strange used it to return home.

I only recall the struggle for the Incomplete IG via Magus/Warlock.

If you know of another, let me know.

============================


Wow, I can't believe I missed that all this time, I knew it, but couldn't put the pieces in perfect alignment,
now I'm 100% convinced that the Incomplete IG performed a pure Multiversal feat.

That's just beautiful cause it says everything about true Goodhood. (complete IG)

Again, no wonder Starlin had Thanos say he was Supreme over All UniverseS,
no wonder Starlin had the LT come with TOAA's power to challenge Warlock.

No wonder, no wonder, no ... yipee.

Originally posted by leonidas
well, there is an obvious solution to the quandary you gentlemen find yourself in.......

i tend to agree with whomever has said eresh was powerful enough to pose a challenge to lt. a greater challenge than adam would have? impossible to say since we didn't see either battle, but i think the intent was clear: her vs lt was gonna cause a whole lot of trouble for everything. i think the difference between adam and her is only a few degrees either way. ig has more feats, obviously, so i'd likely go with him, but i don't think it's a sure thing.

as for maelstrom--i think in that arc he was intended to be on par with thanos. we even saw a what if where that was depicted as true as the quasar canon book. again, intent seems clear to me. i was always under the impression that it was the q-bands though that were the major source of his power. he even refers to them as a source of infinite power. i think maybe he was tapping them in a way most don't. at least, without going back to look it up, that was my impression. maybe it's a mis-recollection, but it always sort of fit for me.

The main reason that she was gonna cause a lot of trouble was only due to her exploiting the nexus and that's it. She could never have affected the multiverse without it. And she even needed to congress to affect it significantly. So without those stipulations involved, she couldn't have caused all the trouble.

That alternate version of weak. They were struggling over a sun (for reasons i can't fathom, because frankly, i don't know what's it supposed to do for either of them). Either way, this reality directly diverged from Quasar #24, meaning when Thanos was still not that much experienced with the IG.

Originally posted by leonidas
well, there is an obvious solution to the quandary you gentlemen find yourself in.......

i tend to agree with whomever has said eresh was powerful enough to pose a challenge to lt. a greater challenge than adam would have? impossible to say since we didn't see either battle, but i think the intent was clear: her vs lt was gonna cause a whole lot of trouble for everything. i think the difference between adam and her is only a few degrees either way. ig has more feats, obviously, so i'd likely go with him, but i don't think it's a sure thing.

as for maelstrom--i think in that arc he was intended to be on par with thanos. we even saw a what if where that was depicted as true as the quasar canon book. again, intent seems clear to me. i was always under the impression that it was the q-bands though that were the major source of his power. he even refers to them as a source of infinite power. i think maybe he was tapping them in a way most don't. at least, without going back to look it up, that was my impression. maybe it's a mis-recollection, but it always sort of fit for me.

Originally posted by operator616

The main reason that she was gonna cause a lot of trouble was only due to her exploiting the nexus and that's it. She could never have affected the multiverse without it. And she even needed to congress to affect it significantly. So without those stipulations involved, she couldn't have caused all the trouble.

That alternate version of weak. They were struggling over a sun (for reasons i can't fathom, because frankly, i don't know what's it supposed to do for either of them). Either way, this reality directly diverged from Quasar #24, meaning when Thanos was still not that much experienced with the IG.
... Although I've said this about Erish for years, (scans & all) obviously it still hasn't sunk in.
Same goes for the Quasar fiasco.

Originally posted by Mr Master

I proved my point with the scans, you had your point and that's that.

Anyway, no different than the arguments made for lucifer's universe made multiverse.


I also proved my point with scans.

And what argument is that? If you're gonna refer to me then you should understand, i fully acknowledge that what Lucifer made could (there could be made arguments from both sides) have been a universe in Lucifer #13. But the original reality, Yahweh's reality, the mainstream Vertigo reality, was also made by Lucifer (also confirmed in a bio) long before he made his personal reality. And that's a confirmed multiverse no doubt. So don't use that against me, to suggest im biased or something.

Originally posted by Mr Master

That would be senseless.


It's also senseless for a universal Eternity/Infinity to beat a power which can easily remake the whole multiverse instantly, don't you think?

Originally posted by Mr Master


Also, GOGT scene literally states that the Time Ripples are a residual effect of the Infinity War.

Please now do tells us,
at what point did the Incomplete IG possibly affect an area located outside an Alternate-Universe 1000 Years in the Future?

*edit: Actually, it was across all Time, since Strange used it to return home.

I only recall the struggle for the Incomplete IG via Magus/Warlock.

If you know of another, let me know.



I dunno, it could be a reference to the Moonshade shit that was going on in the Moon Knight tie-ins. Cause that was fully multiversal (traveling across all realities, causing some dimensional warps). Although i doubt it would reference tie-ins, but either way, there's no confirmation that it was Warlock/Magus, so...

Let me put it this way: What you're suggesting is possible, but there's no confirmation, and there are several contradictions.

Originally posted by operator616

Also, before the Warlock/Magus scene, when Magus acquired the IG, it's attributed to changing the fate of an actuality (a universe):

http://i.imgur.com/qucQIb8.jpg?1

I overlooked this bit. Thanx, this supports my case further.

Remember these guys who could care less about 616's demise,
an obvious representation of Multiversal embodiments on Starlin's part.

He called them, ... an Actuality!

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/18604250_ET_doesnt_care_about_616-2.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/18604251_ET_doesnt_care_about_616-3.jpg

"Before you stands the embodiment of Actuality"

Hope there isn't another spin coming.

^ Im surprised that i have to explain this to you. I highly doubt you didn't realize this, but okay:

In your Warlock Chronicles #3 scans, it's stated that they are embodiments of actuality. While in the IW #5/Magus scan, it's specified that it changes the fate of an (key word, singular) actuality.

Originally posted by operator616
I also proved my point with scans.

And what argument is that? If you're gonna refer to me then you should understand, i fully acknowledge that what Lucifer made could (there could be made arguments from both sides) have been a universe in Lucifer #13. But the original reality, Yahweh's reality, the mainstream Vertigo reality, was also made by Lucifer (also confirmed in a bio) long before he made his personal reality. And that's a confirmed multiverse no doubt. So don't use that against me, to suggest im biased or something.
Cool. I just saw what I saw.
Originally posted by operator616

It's also senseless for a universal Eternity/Infinity to beat a power which can easily remake the whole multiverse instantly, don't you think?
Who said Eternity/Infinity merged were universal?
Why were two universal aspects taking care of business at the farthest edges of the Multiverse?

Anyway,
I always found it interesting that the Eternity Warlock has a relationship with,
was portrayed as Multiversal during the Infinity Crusade affair:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/18604292_ET_doesnt_care_about_616-1.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/18604293_ET_doesnt_care_about_616-5.jpg

Dude could care less about the 616 reality: calls it an infinitesimal part of himself.

It's kinda strange that Stralin would portray the same Eternity as universal and then multiversal.

Of course I don't agree with this cause imo the Eternity from Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War was multiversal.
Not to mention the same Writer is portraying the same damn character.

Originally posted by operator616

^ Im surprised that i have to explain this to you.
Figure I'd see a spin when there's no way around the facts.

Your hilarious insult makes you look a like dick though.
Originally posted by operator616

In your Warlock Chronicles #3 scans, it's stated that they are embodiments of actuality. While in the IW #5/Magus scan, it's specified that it changes the fate of an (key word, singular) actuality.
ka-dur .. Try this word play on someone else son.

Simple: ... An Entire Actuality ... the embodiments of Actuality.

... uhh, an entire Multiverse ... the embodiments of the Multiverse.

Im surprised that I had to explain this to you.

Originally posted by operator616

I dunno, it could be a reference to the Moonshade shit that was going on in the Moon Knight tie-ins. Cause that was fully multiversal (traveling across all realities, causing some dimensional warps). Although i doubt it would reference tie-ins, but either way, there's no confirmation that it was Warlock/Magus, so...
Moonshade was not affecting any reality whatsoever.
Also, Moonshade would not be referred to as the "infinity War."

On the other hand, Warlock/Magus struggle was literally labeled the Infinity War.
Originally posted by operator616

Let me put it this way: What you're suggesting is possible, but there's no confirmation, and there are several contradictions.
Imo, it's definite. There is no other time and you know this,
where an event happened in Infinity War where all of Time could be affected,
except during the Warlock/Magus struggle which crescendos with Eternity/Infinity jumping in.

Starlin (original) stated it operated across "countless universes."
We have Kavanagh (MoonKnight) follow up on that setting the stage at the "farthest edges of the Multiverse."
Where Reality explodes. (we know 616 was included)
Then to cap it off, we have Gallaguer (GOTG) finalize it by showing us left over affects 1000 years in the Future.
All of Time really since Strange used the ripples to return home 1000 years earlier.

Add it up = truth with proof

Originally posted by Mr Master

Who said Eternity/Infinity merged were universal?


So you're not really paying attention to my post? Here's where i stated why they're universal:

Originally posted by operator616
Not to mention that Eternity/Infinity defeated that IG. It was confirmed later that it was universal Eternity (when he said "this universe" that is I), and the handbooks also support that it was universal versions.


Let's put the scans for those. At the end of Infinity War #6, Eternity says, just like i mentioned in the quote above, "this universe, that is I":

http://i.imgur.com/1ND5olm.jpg?1

Magus' bio/handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/b9BnktU.jpg?1

(read top paragraph, sorry about not editing it, im having problems with editing images currently, for some reason).

And that's right associated with the relevant arc (on panel scan from the relevant arc, and the bio narrating the relevant scene). I don't have to reach into another arc (Infinity Crusade) to prove my point.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Why were two universal aspects taking care of business at the farthest edges of the Multiverse?


Because they were threatening the 616 reality.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Anyway,
I always found it interesting that the Eternity Warlock has a relationship with,
was portrayed as Multiversal during the Infinity Crusade affair:

Dude could care less about the 616 reality: calls it an infinitesimal part of himself.

It's kinda strange that Stralin would portray the same Eternity as universal and then multiversal.


Maybe Starlin upgraded his view on Eternity/Infinity after Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War. He portrayed them as universal in those two arcs, there's absolutely no denying that and you know it.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Of course I don't agree with this cause imo the Eternity from Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War was multiversal.


.....Which is definitely false.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Figure I'd see a spin when there's no way around the facts.

Your hilarious insult makes you look a like dick though.


It's not an insult, at least it wasn't meant to be. I was genuinely surprised that you didn't realize this. Because from where i stand, it's a simple concept to understand. So relax, no need to start with your insults and hostility.

Originally posted by Mr Master

ka-dur .. Try this word play on someone else son.

Simple: ... An Entire Actuality ... the embodiments of Actuality.

... uhh, an entire Multiverse ... the embodiments of the Multiverse.

Im surprised that I had to explain this to you.

If a word is preceded by "an" or "a" it suggests singular.

(....Brings back memories from the 1st grade of school).

While in the Warlock Chronicles scans this wasn't mentioned meaning it could have been referring either to a universe or a multiverse. How do we know which? According to the context of the story, in which case it was the multiverse, as you know, since the arc made that evident.

Originally posted by operator616

So you're not really paying attention to my post? Here's where i stated why they're universal:
Let's put the scans for those. At the end of Infinity War #6, Eternity says, just like i mentioned in the quote above, "this universe, that is I":
http://i.imgur.com/1ND5olm.jpg?1
Magus' bio/handbook:
http://i.imgur.com/b9BnktU.jpg?1
Interchangeable terms. Nice.
Originally posted by operator616

And that's right associated with the relevant arc (on panel scan from the relevant arc, and the bio narrating the relevant scene). I don't have to reach into another arc (Infinity Crusade) to prove my point.
So universal Eternity/Infinity defeated Magus after he struggled with Warlock across the Multiverse,
then apparently the Multiverse exploded since reality exploded at the farthest edges of the Multiverse and the 616 reality was part of this reality ending,
then Warlock fixed it all with a snap.

That about right for ya?
We only disagree in terms of whether Eternity/Infinity were multiversal or not.
Originally posted by operator616

Because they were threatening the 616 reality.
They were threatening the Entire Multiverse:

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/18604313_Yea.jpg


Which makes sense since their battle operated across Countless UniverseS:

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/18604314_IG_beyond_universe_7.jpg
Originally posted by operator616

Maybe Starlin upgraded his view on Eternity/Infinity after Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War. He portrayed them as universal in those two arcs, there's absolutely no denying that and you know it.
I disagree.
Originally posted by operator616

.....Which is definitely false.
Which I definitely disagree with.

Originally posted by operator616

It's not an insult, at least it wasn't meant to be. I was genuinely surprised that you didn't realize this. Because from where i stand, it's a simple concept to understand. So relax, no need to start with your insults and hostility.
From where everyone stands they're right, so whatever on the location of the stance.

Just don't try and come at me like your comprehension level is any where above mine.

From where I stand it's quite simple too, but I don't call you an idiot for not getting it.
Originally posted by operator616

If a word is preceded by "an" or "a" it suggests singular.

(....Brings back memories from the 1st grade of school).
This debate is quickly devolving into a first grade level discussion more like it.
Originally posted by operator616

While in the Warlock Chronicles scans this wasn't mentioned meaning it could have been referring either to a universe or a multiverse. How do we know which? According to the context of the story, in which case it was the multiverse, as you know, since the arc made that evident.
There ya go, so when it suits you a term has two meanings, but when it does not, the term is absolute.

Cool beans.

Anyway, this circle has now got me hungry for my burger and soda within my lunch box,
so, I'll leave you to differentiating a term, like:
There's A car, and there's The car, somehow means different amounts of cars. lol

Originally posted by operator616
The main reason that she was gonna cause a lot of trouble was only due to her exploiting the nexus and that's it. She could never have affected the multiverse without it. And she even needed to congress to affect it significantly. So without those stipulations involved, she couldn't have caused all the trouble.

That alternate version of weak. They were struggling over a sun (for reasons i can't fathom, because frankly, i don't know what's it supposed to do for either of them). Either way, this reality directly diverged from Quasar #24, meaning when Thanos was still not that much experienced with the IG.

perhaps that was the reason she was going to be trouble, but it has nothing to do with the inferred power she possessed--namely, power that was enough to give lt pause. there was no noticeable difference in the diffidence shown eresh by lt when compared with that shown to adam. at best, we can say he considered both something very significant. starbrand was also clearly multiversal--a better showing scope-wise than the ig had unless we take into account the black october nonsense.....

the lack of experience by thanos is a bit of a cop-out imo. and while it's true stuggling over a sun is dumb as sh!t, lt's ultimate attack has been shown to be making a sun go supernova, so, meh. it did show their comparative levels however, as viewed by the author--which was in accordance with what was previously shown. that makes 2 pieces of evidence suggesting they WERE peers, vs none that suggest thanos was so much greater. did thanos become more powerful as time went by? it's possible i guess. what proof is there to make said assumption? or was it posted already and i just need to read back some pages?

anyway, i think it's mostly impossible to compare the 2 because clearly there was some form of difference of opinion when it came to thanos within the ranks of marvel. the quasar camp didn't think as highly of him as others did. that doesn't make their opinion less accurate--we just use a different measuring stick imho.

Originally posted by leonidas

perhaps that was the reason she was going to be trouble, but it has nothing to do with the inferred power she possessed--namely, power that was enough to give lt pause. there was no noticeable difference in the diffidence shown eresh by lt when compared with that shown to adam. at best, we can say he considered both something very significant. starbrand was also clearly multiversal--a better showing scope-wise than the ig had unless we take into account the black october nonsense.....
Hey there Leo, curious as to how you saw the Starbrand as "multiversal."

When it's greatest feat is a global one.

That aside, Erishkigel was a complete no body before entering the Nexus.
She expended vast amounts of energy to open a dimensional portal,
something Thor does for lulz.
Originally posted by leonidas

the lack of experience by thanos is a bit of a cop-out imo. and while it's true stuggling over a sun is dumb as sh!t, lt's ultimate attack has been shown to be making a sun go supernova, so, meh. it did show their comparative levels however, as viewed by the author--which was in accordance with what was previously shown. that makes 2 pieces of evidence suggesting they WERE peers, vs none that suggest thanos was so much greater. did thanos become more powerful as time went by? it's possible i guess. what proof is there to make said assumption? or was it posted already and i just need to read back some pages?

anyway, i think it's mostly impossible to compare the 2 because clearly there was some form of difference of opinion when it came to thanos within the ranks of marvel. the quasar camp didn't think as highly of him as others did. that doesn't make their opinion less accurate--we just use a different measuring stick imho.
Maelstrom (amped and merged with Oblivion) got stalemated by an Infinity powered Quasar.
Maelstrom never exercised universal influence and in fact, needed circumstances to do so.

While Thanos curbstomped Infinity's equal.

That, imo, says it all true debater.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Hey there Leo, curious as to how you saw the Starbrand as "multiversal."

When it's greatest feat is a global one.

That aside, Erishkigel was a complete no body before entering the Nexus.
She expended vast amounts of energy to open a dimensional portal,
something Thor does for lulz.

Maelstrom (amped and merged with Oblivion) got stalemated by an Infinity powered Quasar.
Maelstrom never exercised universal influence and in fact, needed circumstances to do so.

While Thanos curbstomped Infinity's equal.

That, imo, says it all true debater.

well the sb was the greatest power in the new uni, and it retained its powers here. def implies multiversal regardless of how you define multiverse imo.

and i agree with some of your opinion regarding her--she was really not all that impressive in some regards--i DO think you need to take into account the way the editorial people of quasar viewed power in general. it was in quasar where 'ultimate speed' was barely the speed of light don't forget. i think the only really telling point of power for her was lt himself. imo, no one really demonstrated massive power in the quasar series. even when quasar fought anomaly it was a black hole that was the major crisis. meaningless, until one realizes that said black hole couldn't be closed by the collection of celestials or the other cosmics..... so, not just a 'normal' black hole, clearly. and it was going to devour a universe WITH thanos in it. could be have resisted it? maybe, but it was clearly intended to be a threat on par with what thanos was--at least in the eyes of the people at quasar imo.

i don't think it a coincidence that both malestrom and eresh appeared in quasar, were intended to be uber cosmic threat and that neither have the uber feats thanos has. i don't think that necessarily devalues them--it was just the way relative power was expressed by different people at marvel. that's why i don't the best way to compare these 3 is via feats. we saw each in comparison to lt, and we saw thanos and mal in relation to each other. based on those comparisons and ONLY those, they were all relatively close imo.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Interchangeable terms. Nice.


You can't be serious.

"this universe" is interchangeably with the multiverse??

Originally posted by Mr Master

So universal Eternity/Infinity defeated Magus after he struggled with Warlock across the Multiverse,
then apparently the Multiverse exploded since reality exploded at the farthest edges of the Multiverse and the 616 reality was part of this reality ending,
then Warlock fixed it all with a snap.

That about right for ya?
We only disagree in terms of whether Eternity/Infinity were multiversal or not.


First off, do you agree or disagree that they were universal? Seems to me that your basis regarding Eternity/Infinity being multiversal in IG and IW is.....nothing.

Not how it works. The writer would either portray both of them universal or both of them multiversal. It wouldn't make sense for w universal powers to defeat a casual multiversal power. In which case, the stronger evidence suggests that they were universal, imo.

Originally posted by Mr Master


They were threatening the Entire Multiverse:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18604313/Yea.jpg.html

Which makes sense since their battle operated across Countless UniverseS:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18604314/IG_beyond_universe_7.jpg.html

..And there we go again....

They were threatening the universe, only:

http://i.imgur.com/HADIfo8.jpg?1

Originally posted by Mr Master

I disagree.

Which I definitely disagree with.

Well that's unfortunate for you. Because i think you know very well that you're gonna get definitely proven wrong on this one. Let's start:

Infinity Gauntlet

Eternity says, he is the actuality that Thanos wants to usurp (specifying that he's the specific reality, 616, that Thanos wanted to usurp):

http://i.imgur.com/wlF792a.jpg?1

Then when Thanos faces Eternity, he specifically says who's gonna control this reality:

http://i.imgur.com/UeoF3eM.jpg?1

Blcokbusters of MU confirms it's a universe:

http://i.imgur.com/n3X5upM.jpg?1

Marvel Legacy's confirms as well (there are more, but this should suffice):

http://i.imgur.com/EQHi426.jpg?1

in Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1, Eternity specifically says that he is the embodiment of all there is, in this reality:

http://i.imgur.com/CkSBLuU.jpg?1

Note: Im not even posting the scans where Eternity is regarded as embodying "the" universe, im only posting those which outright say "this" or "that" universe. So let's settle this.

Infinity War:


Eternity...the embodiment of all there is in this universe:

http://i.imgur.com/PJoIDrW.jpg?1

Gamora (when she was used by Galactus to save Eternity), Galactus indirectly refers to Eternity as "my reality":

http://i.imgur.com/TeOB4Xt.jpg?1

Now, answer me this:

If Eternity was really supposed to be the embodiment of the multiverse (as if literally everything poiting towards it being universal, isn't enough) then why the hell did Agamotto reply "your universe not mine" when Strange said that the whole universe is in danger as a result of Eternity being catatonic? Because according to you, Agamotto's pocket realm should be part of Eternity, since Eternity is the embodiment of the multiverse, right?

http://i.imgur.com/TH4LVAW.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/7AjH9m0.jpg?1

Id definitely want to hear you answer that one.

At the end of Infinity War #6, Eternity says, "this universe, that is I":

http://i.imgur.com/1ND5olm.jpg?1

Magus' bio/handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/b9BnktU.jpg?1


So......you still disagree?

Originally posted by Mr Master
There ya go, so when it suits you a term has two meanings, but when it does not, the term is absolute.




what is it, like the 10 000th time on the forum someone makes a claim for what is and isn't intended by marvel's terminology.....?

occam's razor my friend, occam's razor.....

Originally posted by Mr Master


There ya go, so when it suits you a term has two meanings, but when it does not, the term is absolute.

Cool beans.

Anyway, this circle has now got me hungry for my burger and soda within my lunch box,
so, I'll leave you to differentiating a term, like:
There's A car, and there's The car, somehow means different amounts of cars. lol

Are you kidding me? "when it suits me"? I explained exactly why in the Warlock Chronicles scans it refers to the multiverse. Read carefully next time.

Given that it wasn't preceded by "a" or "an" it may refer to, either a universe or a multiverse. We determine which by knowing the context of the story, which tells us that it refers to the multiverse not the universe.

Does that explanation sound to you like im picking the definition based on when "it suits me"?

Also, in the IW "an actuality" was used several times to refer to individual realities. Two examples:

http://i.imgur.com/iPvdCxG.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/2lNPWVC.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas


what is it, like the 10 000th time on the forum someone makes a claim for what is and isn't intended by marvel's terminology.....?

occam's razor my friend, occam's razor.....
... True that brother Leo. I been on that side of the veil, so I understand.

Originally posted by leonidas
perhaps that was the reason she was going to be trouble, but it has nothing to do with the inferred power she possessed--namely, power that was enough to give lt pause. there was no noticeable difference in the diffidence shown eresh by lt when compared with that shown to adam. at best, we can say he considered both something very significant. starbrand was also clearly multiversal--a better showing scope-wise than the ig had unless we take into account the black october nonsense.....

the lack of experience by thanos is a bit of a cop-out imo. and while it's true stuggling over a sun is dumb as sh!t, lt's ultimate attack has been shown to be making a sun go supernova, so, meh. it did show their comparative levels however, as viewed by the author--which was in accordance with what was previously shown. that makes 2 pieces of evidence suggesting they WERE peers, vs none that suggest thanos was so much greater. did thanos become more powerful as time went by? it's possible i guess. what proof is there to make said assumption? or was it posted already and i just need to read back some pages?

anyway, i think it's mostly impossible to compare the 2 because clearly there was some form of difference of opinion when it came to thanos within the ranks of marvel. the quasar camp didn't think as highly of him as others did. that doesn't make their opinion less accurate--we just use a different measuring stick imho.

Well, the fact that she wanted to exploit the nexus is part of the reason of why she gave LT pause. Otherwise, she was merely a potential peer to the abstracts, not more. Also, Starbrand being multiversal contradicts everything in the story. Ereshkigal sought a nexus and the congress to affect the multiverse. Why go through all this trouble if she could've just done it on her own? .....it doesn't make sense. Im sure you'll agree on that one.

While Quasar #24 was happening, the IG saga had just begun (the main arc, i mean). He only previously had experience with it in a few issues of Silver Surfer and an issue of Cloak and Dagger prior to the IG arc. So he was inexperienced. Possibly, yeah. Gruenwald didn't see Thanos as being that high in the cosmic hierarchy (along with his inexperience). And especially considering that by the time of Quasar #24, Thanos hadn't fought any abstracts, or usurped Eternity. So there's that as well.

Originally posted by operator616
So......you still disagree?
Yea. Been there, done that. I know all those scans well, I been posting them for years.

Again:
Originally posted by Mr Master

So universal Eternity/Infinity defeated Magus after he struggled with Warlock across the Multiverse,
then apparently the Multiverse exploded since reality exploded at the farthest edges of the Multiverse and the 616 reality was part of this reality ending,
then Warlock fixed it all with a snap.

That about right for ya?
We only disagree in terms of whether Eternity/Infinity were multiversal or not.

Originally posted by operator616
Well, the fact that she wanted to exploit the nexus is part of the reason of why she gave LT pause. Otherwise, she was merely a potential peer to the abstracts, not more. Also, Starbrand being multiversal contradicts everything in the story. Ereshkigal sought a nexus and the congress to affect the multiverse. Why go through all this trouble if she could've just done it on her own? .....it doesn't make sense. Im sure you'll agree on that one.

While Quasar #24 was happening, the IG saga had just begun (the main arc, i mean). He only previously had experience with it in a few issues of Silver Surfer and an issue of Cloak and Dagger prior to the IG arc. So he was inexperienced. Possibly, yeah. Gruenwald didn't see Thanos as being that high in the cosmic hierarchy (along with his inexperience). And especially considering that by the time of Quasar #24, Thanos hadn't fought any abstracts, or usurped Eternity. So there's that as well.
Yet Thanos had the IG longer than Erishkigal had the Starbrand. She literally acquired it one issue prior and then went on her little rampage.

Also, she didn't care much for the Nexus Beings telling them to join her or get out the way. She later incinerated those that didn't submit with a gesture.

Originally posted by operator616

Are you kidding me? "when it suits me"? I explained exactly why in the Warlock Chronicles scans it refers to the multiverse. Read carefully next time.
Given that it wasn't preceded by "a" or "an" it may refer to, either a universe or a multiverse. We determine which by knowing the context of the story, which tells us that it refers to the multiverse not the universe.
Does that explanation sound to you like im picking the definition based on when "it suits me"?

Nah,
but yur purposely ignoring/dismissing other factors
that point to Warlock/Magus' struggle operating on a Multiversal scale.

They blew up the 616r reality from the farthest reaches of the Multiverse.

So, it seems in yur opinion, that somehow, from way over there, only 616 was affected.

I disagree, but oh well. (especially since Reality exploded way over there)

^ Im not purposely ignoring anything, im merely looking at the whole picture.

But if im "purposely ignoring" that Moon Knight statement, then i can likewise say that you're "purposely ignoring" the Maelstrom encounter by saying it was PIS or something.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea. Been there, done that. I know all those scans well, I been posting them for years.

Again:



.....

I ask you if you still disagree that they're multiversal, you reply by "yea" which suggests that you still think they're multiversal (without any counters, not that there is one). And then go on and post a quote where you agree that they are universal versions? What the hell am i missing here?

Originally posted by zopzop
Yet Thanos had the IG longer than Erishkigal had the Starbrand. She literally acquired it one issue prior and then went on her little rampage.

Also, she didn't care much for the Nexus Beings telling them to join her or get out the way. She later incinerated those that didn't submit with a gesture.

Don't see the relevance of this.

Not sure what's the point of this. We know that the congress members are well below the abstracts, because they're their puppets. So Ereshkigal obliterating a group of them doesn't sound that impressive. She also evidently cared since she recruited some of them to combine with their energies. If her power dwarfed theirs, she would have obliterated all of them, regardless whether they were willing to join her or not.

Originally posted by operator616
Well, the fact that she wanted to exploit the nexus is part of the reason of why she gave LT pause. Otherwise, she was merely a potential peer to the abstracts, not more. Also, Starbrand being multiversal contradicts everything in the story. Ereshkigal sought a nexus and the congress to affect the multiverse. Why go through all this trouble if she could've just done it on her own? .....it doesn't make sense. Im sure you'll agree on that one.

While Quasar #24 was happening, the IG saga had just begun (the main arc, i mean). He only previously had experience with it in a few issues of Silver Surfer and an issue of Cloak and Dagger prior to the IG arc. So he was inexperienced. Possibly, yeah. Gruenwald didn't see Thanos as being that high in the cosmic hierarchy (along with his inexperience). And especially considering that by the time of Quasar #24, Thanos hadn't fought any abstracts, or usurped Eternity. So there's that as well.

well, just because the sb was multiversal doesn't necessarily mean she could affect the entire mutliverse at once. i don't think that type of power has ever been demonstrated by anyone, ever in marvel. we know though that her power WOULD have affected all those other universes, again supporting the notion of the multiversal nature of her power. the scope is certainly multiversal, the depth of her power is a question however and again, to that point, i think we only have her interaction with lt to use as a clue and to me, it was clearly intimated that, despite her showings feat-wise, she was a very serious threat in and of herself. lt only took action because of her intent, but the reason for his intervention doesn't reflect on her personal power. by that i mean even if she was his EQUAL in power, but meant no harm, lt would have ignored her. that he intervened and showed some concern about his ability to dispatch her easily is the best gauge of her power. imo.

you and mrm may be right about his inexperience playing a role. imo it is the lesser role though and it had more to do with the view taken of each character by the people at quasar.

Originally posted by operator616
Not sure what's the point of this. We know that the congress members are well below the abstracts, because they're their puppets. So Ereshkigal obliterating a group of them doesn't sound that impressive. She also evidently cared since she recruited some of them to combine with their energies. If her power dwarfed theirs, she would have obliterated all of them, regardless whether they were willing to join her or not.
The point is, she could have easily killed them all. The only reason she didn't kill the rest is because they joined her willingly. She saw herself as a multiversal liberator, freeing the "little guy" from the control of uncaring omnipotents. She even offered to take Kayla along with her but Kayla refused.

And like you say, those Congress Members weren't abstract they were barely herald level since Surfer dispatched one of them on his way to the Nexus. So their power input couldn't have been anything significant.

Originally posted by operator616

^ Im not purposely ignoring anything, im merely looking at the whole picture.
Actually, that's what I'm definitely doing.
If you were looking at the big picture then you would consider the other factors,
like residual effects across all Time due to the Infinity War.
When there is only one possible way that could've happened.
Originally posted by operator616

But if im "purposely ignoring" that Moon Knight statement, then i can likewise say that you're "purposely ignoring" the Maelstrom encounter by saying it was PIS or something.
... Nothing happened in the Maelstrom scene. He was obliterated, then re-appeared and left.
Maelstrom added that Thanos was probably not adept with the IG. (true, he had just got it)
He also suggested that Thanos was more powerful than he.

Thanos was not allowed to wipe the floor with Maelstrom cause that was Quasar's job,
in his Quasar book,
where Quasar is the hero.
Originally posted by operator616

I ask you if you still disagree that they're multiversal, you reply by "yea" which suggests that you still think they're multiversal (without any counters, not that there is one). And then go on and post a quote where you agree that they are universal versions? What the hell am i missing here?
You're missing that I'm putting it in your perspective.

In mine, the reason ET/IN popped up at the edge of the Multiverse,
is cause all of space-time joined to take down Magus.
Magus was unbalanced at this point due to the struggle,
this is why Warlock waited for the right moment to unleash the power of all on his ass.

Originally posted by leonidas
well the sb was the greatest power in the new uni, and it retained its powers here. def implies multiversal regardless of how you define multiverse imo.
But my friend, the best feat it has (which is within the New Uni, was global.
Erishkigel's best feat outside the Nexus was killing an already dying Man-Thing.
Originally posted by leonidas

and i agree with some of your opinion regarding her--she was really not all that impressive in some regards--i DO think you need to take into account the way the editorial people of quasar viewed power in general. it was in quasar where 'ultimate speed' was barely the speed of light don't forget. i think the only really telling point of power for her was lt himself. imo, no one really demonstrated massive power in the quasar series. even when quasar fought anomaly it was a black hole that was the major crisis. meaningless, until one realizes that said black hole couldn't be closed by the collection of celestials or the other cosmics..... so, not just a 'normal' black hole, clearly. and it was going to devour a universe WITH thanos in it. could be have resisted it? maybe, but it was clearly intended to be a threat on par with what thanos was--at least in the eyes of the people at quasar imo.

i don't think it a coincidence that both malestrom and eresh appeared in quasar, were intended to be uber cosmic threat and that neither have the uber feats thanos has. i don't think that necessarily devalues them--it was just the way relative power was expressed by different people at marvel. that's why i don't the best way to compare these 3 is via feats. we saw each in comparison to lt, and we saw thanos and mal in relation to each other. based on those comparisons and ONLY those, they were all relatively close imo.
That's a very sensible post, it can't be denied. I agree with most of it.

Although I don't think they were close: IG and the others that is.
Also, the Quasar drama was not recognized by any other title that I know of.
So the universe Thanos was in getting taken by that black hole is like a monkey wrench of senselessness. (not you the book)

Uatu never mentioned any of that during the Thanos drama and he was supposedly at both sides.
At-least Thanos made a cameo in the Quasar book.

Originally posted by zopzop
The point is, she could have easily killed them all. The only reason she didn't kill the rest is because they joined her willingly. She saw herself as a multiversal liberator, freeing the "little guy" from the control of uncaring omnipotents. She even offered to take Kayla along with her but Kayla refused.

And like you say, those Congress Members weren't abstract they were barely herald level since Surfer dispatched one of them on his way to the Nexus. So their power input couldn't have been anything significant.
Zop, without the Congress, Erishkigel wasn't accomplishing anything.
Regardless of any shenanigans going on this was literally stated.
That was integral to her plan. It wasn't just "cosmic Mandela" aspirations.

Also, without the Nexus, she wasn't going to ever be "multiversal."
Since she never displayed any reason for me to think she was "universal," she wasn't that either.

For whatever stupid reason, once in the Nexus, everything changed. Kinda funny if you ask me.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Zop, without the Congress, Erishkigel wasn't accomplishing anything.
Regardless of any shenanigans going on this was literally stated.
That was integral to her plan. It wasn't just "cosmic Mandela" aspirations.

Also, without the Nexus, she wasn't going to ever be "multiversal."
Since she never displayed any reason for me to think she was "universal," she wasn't that either.

For whatever stupid reason, once in the Nexus, everything changed. Kinda funny if you ask me.
We'll have to agree to disagree my friend.

Think about it, if location was the LT's only concern, forcibly MOVE her out of it and then wreck her.

Not only that, she was fondling Order and Chaos like a power drunk pedophile right in the LT's grill and he couldn't stop her or reverse her actions.

Can you guys just close the book on this?
This is how it goes:

Adam/Thanos w/IG (one shot multiple cosmics capability/no help needed from outside source like a nexus)>>>Malestrom/QB/Anomaly/Oblivion (shitstomped by blackhole/briefly stalemated then shitstomped by one cosmic:Infinity)>>>Ereshkigal/Nexus/Congress (featless/mere abstract peer/struggles opening portals/boosted by character (LT) statements).

And winner by unanimous decision.........The Infinity Gauntlet!

Yay yay

Originally posted by Mr Master

... Nothing happened in the Maelstrom scene. He was obliterated, then re-appeared and left.
Maelstrom added that Thanos was probably not adept with the IG. (true, he had just got it)
He also suggested that Thanos was more powerful than he.

Thanos was not allowed to wipe the floor with Maelstrom cause that was Quasar's job,
in his Quasar book,
where Quasar is the hero.


Point is, Thanos wanted to obliterate him and he failed (bio says that Maelstrom was superior to IG Thanos), but okay, we agreed that there were other things preventing him from doing that. Perhaps this was a bad example on my part, of how you purposely ignore evidence. A better example would be how you blatantly ignore the entire depiction of Eternity/Infinity throughout both arcs, for the showing to make sense.

I mean, don't pretend like im the only one ignoring things. From what i read, the stronger evidence alludes to it being universal, hence why i chose to "ignore" the Moon Knight statement.

Originally posted by Mr Master

the reason ET/IN popped up at the edge of the Multiverse,
is cause all of space-time joined to take down Magus.
Magus was unbalanced at this point due to the struggle,
this is why Warlock waited for the right moment to unleash the power of all on his ass.

Well, setting aside the fact that Eternity/Infinity were blatantly shown to be universal until Infinity War #5/6, we have a confirmation even after the Magus/Warlock battle happened, that Eternity is universal since he said the he is the embodiment of "this universe" in the last pages of Infinity War #6. And the handbooks outright say that they were universal versions who overpowered that IG.

If this isn't enough, then i don't know what is, honestly. Talk about ignoring things.

Anyway, im done here.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Malestrom>Ereshkigal


How do you interpret the LT statement when he said that if they compete it would cause severe damage to reality (through the nexus)? As in, she would give him a fight but ultimately lose, or that he'd easily beat her?

Originally posted by operator616

Point is, Thanos wanted to obliterate him and he failed (bio says that Maelstrom was superior to IG Thanos), but okay, we agreed that there were other things preventing him from doing that.

Originally posted by operator616

Perhaps this was a bad example on my part, of how you purposely ignore evidence. A better example would be how you blatantly ignore the entire depiction of Eternity/Infinity throughout both arcs, for the showing to make sense.
Gibberish.
Originally posted by operator616

I mean, don't pretend like im the only one ignoring things. From what i read, the stronger evidence alludes to it being universal, hence why i chose to "ignore" the Moon Knight statement.
From what I read, the stronger evidence alludes to it being Multiversal.

Well, towards the end that is, when Magus/Warlock struggled over the Incomplete IG.

Meh,
not to mention that Magus merged 616 and another entire universe from over 100 universeS away.
Magus was also omni-present existing in multiple universes simultaneously.
Magus also wtfpwnd the UN (at-least absolute universal power)
Which is interesting, cause you know that's all facts,
making Magus at the very least a Multi-Universal power, and definitely > universal
yet, your "universal" embodiments defeated his multi-universal status.

The plot thickens ey?
Originally posted by operator616

Well, setting aside the fact that Eternity/Infinity were blatantly shown to be universal until Infinity War #5/6, we have a confirmation even after the Magus/Warlock battle happened, that Eternity is universal since he said the he is the embodiment of "this universe" in the last pages of Infinity War #6. And the handbooks outright say that they were universal versions who overpowered that IG.
Yea, of course Eternity is this universe, and that universe, if he's the multiverse.
Handbooks say nothing about anyone being "universal, but nice try.
Handbook says the universe, and like you proved with Lucifer,
that term can mean something other.
Like I proved with Infinity War. (actually the term Multiverse was used on panel so)

-----------------------------------------

btw, I missed your Aggy scan (which was the only relevant scan there imo)
At that point, the Multiverse entire was not in danger.
That multiversal jeopardy came towards the end, when Magus/Warlock batatled,
when you know, their struggle reached even Alternate Realities 1000 Years from now.

So, Aggy's comment is moot concerning this particular debate.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Can you guys just close the book on this?
This is how it goes:

Adam/Thanos w/IG (one shot multiple cosmics capability/no help needed from outside source like a nexus)>>>Malestrom/QB/Anomaly/Oblivion (shitstomped by blackhole/briefly stalemated then shitstomped by one cosmic:Infinity)>>>Ereshkigal/Nexus/Congress (featless/mere abstract peer/struggles opening portals/boosted by character (LT) statements).

And winner by unanimous decision.........The Infinity Gauntlet!
I don't get this whole Nexus excuse regarding the Starbrand and the LT.

When Warlock threw his little tantrum against the cosmic court, the LT reveresed the damage with a snap of his fingers :
http://s23.postimg.org/vdmx2sjbr/ltrulesig10cf.jpg http://s23.postimg.org/n9esy1wwn/ltrecreatesqm2.jpg

When Ereskigal forcibly upset the balance between Order and Chaos, the LT didn't attempt to stop her, or snap his fingers and undo the damage she did :
http://s12.postimg.org/epuojdrmh/1810777_quasar_50_30.jpg

Whoopsie!

Here is the LT staring down Warlock with the IG all by himself :
http://s7.postimg.org/okbmqi613/ADAM_trial_Living_Tribunal_copy.jpg

Here is the LT threatening Erishkigal with a cosmic posse consisting of the mighty of the multiverse (despite the fact that they would fight in the Nexus) and she dared him to do it :
http://s9.postimg.org/q9749rh0r/1810778_quasar_50_32.jpg

If she was nothing to him why not :
a) BFR her then seal her in one of the random dimensions that the Nexus connects to? He's powerful enough to cut an entire universe from the rest of the multiverse and seal it so nothing got in or out :
http://s28.postimg.org/s8j105qxl/1810772_quasar_50_14.jpg
http://s29.postimg.org/b08gbmm1f/1738829_page336se.jpg
He couldn't even BFR.

Once the Gems were under the LT's command, he powered them off and didn't allow them to work in unison :
http://s13.postimg.org/91as9p7hf/1246404_ltaboveig6qk.jpg

The LT couldn't do jack vs the Starbrand (banish it, destroy it, etc.) and instead gave it back to Kayla on the downlow.

^^ I can't believe you're comparing the Starbrand to the IG. (classic no less)

Anyway, who was the hero in the Quasar book, and who was the hero in the Infinity Watch book?

Interesting, both heroes in both books come out looking good and winning.

LT wasn't allowed to stomp Erish, cause it was Quasar's book, where Quasar is the winning/hero.
There was only Warlock, the LT and the hierarchy in the IW book.
So yea, there was ONLY the LT to contend with Warlock.
Warlock had just obliterated the hierarchy one shot style, why would the LT think he needs them?

-------------------------------------------------


Also, you seem to forget one very important factor.

The LT didn't come at Warlock like he did at Erishkigel.

The LT came as something FAR more than his normal self: (TOAA's power?) hm



"I represent forces that dwarf even your might ... My authority comes from on high"

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Warlock/IG made it clear that it was TOAA that was above the 616 IG:



"I was called to judgement by the LT, the servant of the one who is above even Gods"

----------------------------------------------------------------------


The amazing thing is, that even still,
the LT had to determine if he had the power to forcibly take the IG from Warlock,
and he did have the power, but he had to make sure first,
even though the LT knew he was backed by TOAA.

Simply incredible.

Originally posted by Mr Master


The LT came as something FAR more than his normal self: (TOAA's power?) hm



"I represent forces that dwarf even your might ... My authority comes from on high"

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Warlock/IG made it clear that it was TOAA that was above the 616 IG:



"I was called to judgement by the LT, the servant of the one who is above even Gods"

----------------------------------------------------------------------


The amazing thing is, that even still,
the LT had to determine if he had the power to forcibly take the IG from Warlock,
and he did have the power, but he had to make sure first,
even though the LT knew he was backed by TOAA.

Simply incredible.

now this is a stance i've always disagreed with. in ANY incarnation, lt is a representative for toaa--iow he always has his backing. i don't think it's possible for lt to act INDEPENDENT of toaa's influence--at least we've never seen him do something that was against the wishes of toaa. lt's abilities aren't akin to the way the spectre is occasionally portrayed. i don't think lt was any more powerful in that scene than he was in any other appearance he's ever had. he just doesn't always outright state who's authority he is acting at the behest of. least imo. /shrug

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ I can't believe you're comparing the Starbrand to the IG. (classic no less)

Anyway, who was the hero in the Quasar book, and who was the hero in the Infinity Watch book?

Interesting, both heroes in both books come out looking good and winning.

LT wasn't allowed to stomp Erish, cause it was Quasar's book, where Quasar is the winning/hero.
There was only Warlock, the LT and the hierarchy in the IW book.
So yea, there was ONLY the LT to contend with Warlock.
Warlock had just obliterated the hierarchy one shot style, why would the LT think he needs them?

-------------------------------------------------


Also, you seem to forget one very important factor.

The LT didn't come at Warlock like he did at Erishkigel.

The LT came as something FAR more than his normal self: (TOAA's power?) hm



"I represent forces that dwarf even your might ... My authority comes from on high"

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Warlock/IG made it clear that it was TOAA that was above the 616 IG:



"I was called to judgement by the LT, the servant of the one who is above even Gods"

----------------------------------------------------------------------


The amazing thing is, that even still,
the LT had to determine if he had the power to forcibly take the IG from Warlock,
and he did have the power, but he had to make sure first,
even though the LT knew he was backed by TOAA.

Simply incredible.
Again, Mr. M I actually do get where you are coming from and I see your point. I just think you are seriously underselling the Classic Starbrand.

In the above example regarding the Cosmic Court, the LT just SAT there completely unmoved by Warlock's assault on the Court and undid it with a finger snap.

When Erishkigal was toying with Order and Chaos against his will, all he did was scream at her to stop and she just laughed in his face. Why scream at her? Why not actually stop what she was doing or undo what she did (like he did vs Warlock)?

Compare and contrast his demeanor in both incidents. It's like night and day.

Keep in mind the Cosmic Court incident took place before the LT/Starbrand incident so Gruenwald must have been aware of it. That's pretty huge in and of itself as an indication of the classic Starbrand's power.

Originally posted by zopzop
I don't get this whole Nexus excuse regarding the Starbrand and the LT.

When Warlock threw his little tantrum against the cosmic court, the LT reveresed the damage with a snap of his fingers :
http://s23.postimg.org/vdmx2sjbr/ltrulesig10cf.jpg http://s23.postimg.org/n9esy1wwn/ltrecreatesqm2.jpg

When Ereskigal forcibly upset the balance between Order and Chaos, the LT didn't attempt to stop her, or snap his fingers and undo the damage she did :
http://s12.postimg.org/epuojdrmh/1810777_quasar_50_30.jpg

Whoopsie!

Here is the LT staring down Warlock with the IG all by himself :
http://s7.postimg.org/okbmqi613/ADAM_trial_Living_Tribunal_copy.jpg

Here is the LT threatening Erishkigal with a cosmic posse consisting of the mighty of the multiverse (despite the fact that they would fight in the Nexus) and she dared him to do it :
http://s9.postimg.org/q9749rh0r/1810778_quasar_50_32.jpg

If she was nothing to him why not :
a) BFR her then seal her in one of the random dimensions that the Nexus connects to? He's powerful enough to cut an entire universe from the rest of the multiverse and seal it so nothing got in or out :
http://s28.postimg.org/s8j105qxl/1810772_quasar_50_14.jpg
http://s29.postimg.org/b08gbmm1f/1738829_page336se.jpg
He couldn't even BFR.

Once the Gems were under the LT's command, he powered them off and didn't allow them to work in unison :
http://s13.postimg.org/91as9p7hf/1246404_ltaboveig6qk.jpg

The LT couldn't do jack vs the Starbrand (banish it, destroy it, etc.) and instead gave it back to Kayla on the downlow.

incidentally, when lt mentions that she may be a peer to the "abstracts", he ALSO goes out of his way to mention he would call down "the highest powers in the MULTIVERSE" to challenge her. that in itself speaks volumes to me. factor in the notion that she was considered a threat to MULTIVERSAL balance, and all clues would seem to point to the fact that the 'abstracts' that he likened her to, may very well be the MULTIVERSAL forms of said abstracts.....like if someone said they would call down the mightiest beings in the UNIVERSE, we would all assume, i imagine, that those beings would include the UNIVERSAL eternity, death, etc. well, to me it stands to reason the mightiest in the MULTIVERSE would be the MULTIVERSAL abstracts.....

imo there is at least as much support for that idea as there is for the idea that he was comparing her to just the 'universal' forms--given the context of the story, i'd say there is MORE support tbh. and if THAT fact is true, her power level is on a WHOLE different level altogether.....

Originally posted by leonidas
incidentally, when lt mentions that she may be a peer to the "abstracts", he ALSO goes out of his way to mention he would call down "the highest powers in the MULTIVERSE" to challenge her. that in itself speaks volumes to me. factor in the notion that she was considered a threat to MULTIVERSAL balance, and all clues would seem to point to the fact that the 'abstracts' that he likened her to, may very well be the MULTIVERSAL forms of said abstracts.....like if someone said they would call down the mightiest beings in the UNIVERSE, we would all assume, i imagine, that those beings would include the UNIVERSAL eternity, death, etc. well, to me it stands to reason the mightiest in the MULTIVERSE would be the MULTIVERSAL abstracts.....

imo there is at least as much support for that idea as there is for the idea that he was comparing her to just the 'universal' forms--given the context of the story, i'd say there is MORE support tbh. and if THAT fact is true, her power level is on a WHOLE different level altogether.....


And Gruenwald (the guy who wrote that issue) would know the difference between universe and multiverse seeing as how The classification system for alternate realities was devised, in part, by Mark Gruenwald.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_%28Marvel_Comics%29
http://s28.postimg.org/i2iaa2izd/2964320_01.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
incidentally, when lt mentions that she may be a peer to the "abstracts", he ALSO goes out of his way to mention he would call down "the highest powers in the MULTIVERSE" to challenge her. that in itself speaks volumes to me. factor in the notion that she was considered a threat to MULTIVERSAL balance, and all clues would seem to point to the fact that the 'abstracts' that he likened her to, may very well be the MULTIVERSAL forms of said abstracts.....like if someone said they would call down the mightiest beings in the UNIVERSE, we would all assume, i imagine, that those beings would include the UNIVERSAL eternity, death, etc. well, to me it stands to reason the mightiest in the MULTIVERSE would be the MULTIVERSAL abstracts.....

imo there is at least as much support for that idea as there is for the idea that he was comparing her to just the 'universal' forms--given the context of the story, i'd say there is MORE support tbh. and if THAT fact is true, her power level is on a WHOLE different level altogether.....
It was too late to edit my previous post, but you could be on to something regarding the multiversal nature of the abstracts the LT mentioned.

Keep in mind the concept of a multi-Versal abstract isn't foreign to Gruenwald, he wrote the What If and the follow up What If about Korvac destroying the universe with the UN. In the follow up story look what Eternity says :
http://s24.postimg.org/acz7uhfcx/2u9mkjd.jpg
"Of the nigh infinite aspects that comprise my totality, I am the only one to succumb to Death".

Originally posted by zopzop
Again, Mr. M I actually do get where you are coming from and I see your point. I just think you are seriously underselling the Classic Starbrand.

In the above example regarding the Cosmic Court, the LT just SAT there completely unmoved by Warlock's assault on the Court and undid it with a finger snap.

When Erishkigal was toying with Order and Chaos against his will, all he did was scream at her to stop and she just laughed in his face. Why scream at her? Why not actually stop what she was doing or undo what she did (like he did vs Warlock)?

Compare and contrast his demeanor in both incidents. It's like night and day.

Keep in mind the Cosmic Court incident took place before the LT/Starbrand incident so Gruenwald must have been aware of it. That's pretty huge in and of itself as an indication of the classic Starbrand's power.

What you have to realize is how the writer wanted this plot to play out zop. LT could have sent other abstracts to deal with her or he could've stomped her by himself but what was suggested was a tournament in which LT picked Surfer knowing he was more powerful (as was shown) and was going to beat Quasar anyway. That's how this was supposed to play out with Quasar realizing what's going on and Surfer saving the universe.

To compare and contrast both cases involved:
Massive destruction if LT were to intervene personally in physical terms.
LT admitting to both that his power is superior.

This clause also plays into effect:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15145392_1810896-quasar_50_40_super.jpg

LT cannot possess the SB or manipulate it because it jeapordizes his authority being that it is a source of power stemming from outside of his jurisdiction. He has no say so about anything in/from New Universe. This explains him being able to shut off the gems of 616 but not directly being able to affect the SB any kind of way within the Marvel multiverse. Because of this, he can only bfr it. So his differences in dealing with both under these conditions are completely reasonable and justifiable. Just because these facts are the case doesn't mean SB automatically >>>>IG by proxy. You have to take these stipulations into account.

Now I think about it, LT really outsmarted her and played her like a chump by having his way not bringing about universal destruction considering said stipulations were always in effect. There's also the fact that Ereshkigal, after losing the contest, dared not challenge LT outright but instead destroyed herself. If she's so powerful, of all ways, why go out like that?

Originally posted by leonidas
incidentally, when lt mentions that she may be a peer to the "abstracts", he ALSO goes out of his way to mention he would call down "the highest powers in the MULTIVERSE" to challenge her. that in itself speaks volumes to me. factor in the notion that she was considered a threat to MULTIVERSAL balance, and all clues would seem to point to the fact that the 'abstracts' that he likened her to, may very well be the MULTIVERSAL forms of said abstracts.....like if someone said they would call down the mightiest beings in the UNIVERSE, we would all assume, i imagine, that those beings would include the UNIVERSAL eternity, death, etc. well, to me it stands to reason the mightiest in the MULTIVERSE would be the MULTIVERSAL abstracts.....

imo there is at least as much support for that idea as there is for the idea that he was comparing her to just the 'universal' forms--given the context of the story, i'd say there is MORE support tbh. and if THAT fact is true, her power level is on a WHOLE different level altogether.....

I see what you're saying and it's valid but it could also mean that LT could just choose from a wider variety of abstracts. A multiverse would encompass more in quantity to pick from opposed to just one universe. Bit of a ego stroke announcing his range of scope IMO.

Originally posted by leonidas
now this is a stance i've always disagreed with. in ANY incarnation, lt is a representative for toaa--iow he always has his backing. i don't think it's possible for lt to act INDEPENDENT of toaa's influence--at least we've never seen him do something that was against the wishes of toaa. lt's abilities aren't akin to the way the spectre is occasionally portrayed. i don't think lt was any more powerful in that scene than he was in any other appearance he's ever had. he just doesn't always outright state who's authority he is acting at the behest of. least imo. /shrug
Cool brotha, but I disagree likewise.

The fact that LT said he was "representing forces that dwarf the IG"

Imo, context is clear LT's referring to someone else.

Then to solidify that, we have Warlock literally and directly state it's TOAA who is above the IG.

If the LT's statement was all I had to go on (self explanatory as it is) I wouldn't make the argument,
but the Warlock corroboration (under the mantle of Godhood) saying the same thing, does it for me.

Originally posted by zopzop

Again, Mr. M I actually do get where you are coming from and I see your point. I just think you are seriously underselling the Classic Starbrand.

In the above example regarding the Cosmic Court, the LT just SAT there completely unmoved by Warlock's assault on the Court and undid it with a finger snap.

When Erishkigal was toying with Order and Chaos against his will, all he did was scream at her to stop and she just laughed in his face. Why scream at her? Why not actually stop what she was doing or undo what she did (like he did vs Warlock)?

Compare and contrast his demeanor in both incidents. It's like night and day.
She wasn't toying with LC and MO, she simply using power within the Nexus.
This is the whole reason the LT didn't want her (actually the Starbrand) there,
it's very presence upsets balance because it adds energy/power to an already closed system.
That "closed system" being the prime Multiverse. All the power withIN is accounted for,
anything extra added to it unbalances LC MO. This was explicitly explained by the Congress.

You're also overlooking the fact that Gruenwald couldn't have the LT stomp/stop her,
because the book/plot must go on where Quasar (his book btw) comes out the hero in the end.

LT stated he was more powerful than Erish so the rest is senseless.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11945484_EK10.jpg

The LT felt she may be a "potential peer to the abstract Entities"

But could not "withstand the power of the Living Tribunal"
Originally posted by zopzop

Keep in mind the Cosmic Court incident took place before the LT/Starbrand incident so Gruenwald must have been aware of it. That's pretty huge in and of itself as an indication of the classic Starbrand's power.
I luvs Gruenwald but since some of his work was done while high as a hawk, he slipped here and there.

You guys continue with the LT calling others to smack down Erish, but perhaps it's cause he wasn't allowed to do it himself.

Freakin Gruenwald, remember he had Uatu enlist the "mightiest powers of the Multiverse" to confront Korvac,
they came and got stomped save for the LT.

Yet, Korvac wasn't even able to destroy a universe under his own power.

Originally posted by Sundipped
There's also the fact that Ereshkigal, after losing the contest, dared not challenge LT outright but instead destroyed herself. If she's so powerful, of all ways, why go out like that?
That means nothing though. It's just like the time Grandmaster tricked and imprisoned Death and usurped her power.

He made a bet with Hawkeye and when he lost, he had to relinquish his power back to Death. Why do that when he had her helpless and WTF was Hawkeye gonna do to enforce that wager?
http://s27.postimg.org/mv3q0kebj/av09.jpg http://s27.postimg.org/hxq5fgccf/av10.jpg http://s27.postimg.org/hz038ve67/av11.jpg
Unless you believe Hawkeye could have beaten Grandmaster with Death's power?
EDIT - Defalco wrote that and Gruenwald was the editor.

Originally posted by leonidas
incidentally, when lt mentions that she may be a peer to the "abstracts", he ALSO goes out of his way to mention he would call down "the highest powers in the MULTIVERSE" to challenge her. that in itself speaks volumes to me. factor in the notion that she was considered a threat to MULTIVERSAL balance, and all clues would seem to point to the fact that the 'abstracts' that he likened her to, may very well be the MULTIVERSAL forms of said abstracts.....like if someone said they would call down the mightiest beings in the UNIVERSE, we would all assume, i imagine, that those beings would include the UNIVERSAL eternity, death, etc. well, to me it stands to reason the mightiest in the MULTIVERSE would be the MULTIVERSAL abstracts.....
That sounds familiar ...

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/9738078_Kor6.jpg

"The most awesome assembly of diverse power-wielders in the history of the Multiverse"

Yet, Korvac couldn't even destroy a universe under his own power.

... written by Gruenwald btw. (I see a pattern of exaggerations building)

So basically, the Starbrand is above the IG due to absolutely ZERO feats, but rather based on LT not punching Eresh in her stupid face?

Yep

Originally posted by Mr Master

not to mention that Magus merged 616 and another entire universe from over 100 universeS away.
Magus was also omni-present existing in multiple universes simultaneously.
Magus also wtfpwnd the UN (at-least absolute universal power)
Which is interesting, cause you know that's all facts,
making Magus at the very least a Multi-Universal power, and definitely > universal
yet, your "universal" embodiments defeated his multi-universal status.

The plot thickens ey?


Two complete universal characters merged together = multi-universal power.

So, an incomplete IG was able to merge two universes, yet it was overpowered by a multi-universal power. I don't see any contradictions.

Originally posted by Mr Master


Yea, of course Eternity is this universe, and that universe, if he's the multiverse.
Handbooks say nothing about anyone being "universal, but nice try.
Handbook says the universe, and like you proved with Lucifer,
that term can mean something other.
Like I proved with Infinity War. (actually the term Multiverse was used on panel so)


....what a nice excuse. So on panel, Eternity literally being described as being "this" universe, or specifying that Thanos is going to usurp "that" actuality (which is Eternity), isn't enough. Okay, im done arguing about this point, believe what you want.

Although im not sure what Lucifer has to do with all this. Eternity was specified as being a universe throughout the entire arc, and we know that it was not the embodiment of the multiverse since Agamotto (and Cyttorak) didn't care about him. While in Lucifer's case, it's different. Because Vertigo titles don't use the term "multiverse" as much as Marvel does. And it was made clear that Yahweh's reality is a multiverse since alternate realities were showin/depicted on panel. Which is why there's no doubt that the original reality, which Lucifer (along with Michael) created, was a multiverse.

Originally posted by Mr Master

btw, I missed your Aggy scan (which was the only relevant scan there imo)
At that point, the Multiverse entire was not in danger.
That multiversal jeopardy came towards the end, when Magus/Warlock batatled,
when you know, their struggle reached even Alternate Realities 1000 Years from now.

So, Aggy's comment is moot concerning this particular debate.

Do you honestly think that the Eternity whom Magus/Warlock faced was different from the one which was portrayed throughout the arc?

Because it's not. Infinity confirmed it:

http://i.imgur.com/ESiZksE.jpg

The case for Eternity/Infinity being multiversal is based on nothing whatsoever and contradicted by.....literally, everything.

Originally posted by leonidas
now this is a stance i've always disagreed with. in ANY incarnation, lt is a representative for toaa--iow he always has his backing. i don't think it's possible for lt to act INDEPENDENT of toaa's influence--at least we've never seen him do something that was against the wishes of toaa. lt's abilities aren't akin to the way the spectre is occasionally portrayed. i don't think lt was any more powerful in that scene than he was in any other appearance he's ever had. he just doesn't always outright state who's authority he is acting at the behest of. least imo. /shrug



Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool brotha, but I disagree likewise.

The fact that LT said he was "representing forces that dwarf the IG"

Imo, context is clear LT's referring to someone else.

Then to solidify that, we have Warlock literally and directly state it's TOAA who is above the IG.

If the LT's statement was all I had to go on (self explanatory as it is) I wouldn't make the argument,
but the Warlock corroboration (under the mantle of Godhood) saying the same thing, does it for me.

Handbooks don't credit TOAA as being superior to the infinity gems, it specifically says that LT showed superiority to the gems.

http://i.imgur.com/AVhnWBK.jpg?1

"Living Tribunal demonstrated that his power is superior to that of the gems".

Here's another handbook which hints that the IG is below the LT, by saying it surpasses "most" of the abstracts (obviously it refers to LT because the IG is confirmed to be above all asbtract except LT who sometimes is regarded as being an "abstract":

http://i.imgur.com/bhcL6RN.jpg?1

Out of curiosity though, You think that IG is above LT? And from reading your post, you seem to be implying that its power rivals TOAA's. Correct me if im wrong.

Originally posted by operator616
Handbooks don't credit TOAA as being superior to the infinity gems, it specifically says that LT showed superiority to the gems.
http://i.imgur.com/AVhnWBK.jpg?1
"Living Tribunal demonstrated that his power is superior to that of the gems".
Here's another handbook which hints that the IG is below the LT, by saying it surpasses "most" of the abstracts (obviously it refers to LT because the IG is confirmed to be above all asbtract except LT who sometimes is regarded as being an "abstract":
http://i.imgur.com/bhcL6RN.jpg?1
If I pledged my allegiance to handbooks before on panel showings
I would think that the Fury was damaged by it's universe's death.

Good thing I rely on On Panel evidence solely, and bios are only used to corroborate what happened therein.

Anyhow, on panel the LT stated otherwise and so did Warlock.
Originally posted by operator616

Out of curiosity though, You think that IG is above LT? And from reading your post, you seem to be implying that its power rivals TOAA's. Correct me if im wrong.
TOAA > all ... You should know I would never think otherwise.

The IG made it's wielder the legitimate in-reality supreme being.

As for the question: You know, I always put the LT above the IG but I don't know.
At-least in that Warlock scene it seemed like the LT was above the IG due to his OAA connections.

Afterwards though, there's proof imo that definitively puts the LT above the IG.

Still, that occurrence with Warlock will always leave me confused a bit.

I'll address this since the rest is circles imo.
Originally posted by operator616
Two complete universal characters merged together = multi-universal power.

So, an incomplete IG was able to merge two universes, yet it was overpowered by a multi-universal power. I don't see any contradictions.
Oh I see, I had no idea that Infinity and Eternity represented Two separate universes.

Thanx for the heads up.

All this time I thought they were One universe:

Infinity = the spatial axis ... Eternity = the temporal axis.

Wait, I thought when they merged they became the entire space-time continuum as one.

The space-time continuum of one universe or all.
Since this is a "universal" cat you're suggesting,
it makes no sense that a universal space-time continuum is two universes.

... but ok.

^ They are universal powers, each one. So in Defenders v3, in the instance where there was a multiversal Eternity, Dormammu didn't remake all universes inside the multiverse? Oh right, he did. Eternity being the embodiment of time doesn't change the fact that he has complete control over time and space. You should know that.

Unless you think that universal Eternity alone is a multi-galactic power, or doesn't have absolute control over a reality (even though it's been outright stated that he does)? Because you're saying that only with Infinity, does Eternity achieve absolute control over a singular reality.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If I pledged my allegiance to handbooks before on panel showings
I would think that the Fury was damaged by it's universe's death.

Good thing I rely on On Panel evidence solely, and bios are only used to corroborate what happened therein.

Anyhow, on panel the LT stated otherwise and so did Warlock.


Not exactly otherwise. Your interpretation is simply different. I agree with Leo that LT is always representing TOAA. IG instance was not special, imo.

But we'll disagree.

Originally posted by Mr Master

TOAA > all ... You should know I would never think otherwise.



I know that according to you (and hopefully everyone), TOAA > all. But what i meant is, if you think IG's power rivals TOAA's, as in, if it's comparable. Because that's what i understood when you said that LT wasn't sure if he could stop Warlock at first, despite having TOAA's authority at his disposal.

Originally posted by operator616

^ They are universal powers, each one. So in Defenders v3, in the instance where there was a multiversal Eternity, Dormammu didn't remake all universes inside the multiverse? Oh right, he did. Eternity being the embodiment of time doesn't change the fact that he has complete control over time and space. You should know that.
Unless you think that universal Eternity alone is a multi-galactic power, or doesn't have absolute control over a reality (even though it's been outright stated that he does)? Because you're saying that only with Infinity, does Eternity achieve absolute control over a singular reality.
Actually, Infinity wasn't even recognized in the Defenders arc, like so many times Eternity solely represents Marvel.

Big deal.

They (Eternity/Infinity) share a universe. (Spatial axis and Temporal axis)
They're two sides of the same coin.

This is why Eternity couldn't fight CK, as he noted, it would be like fighting myself.

Simple. When Infinity is acknowledged this idea comes into play,
when she's not,
Eternity is the full power of the universe and/or multiverse.

... real simple.
Originally posted by operator616

Not exactly otherwise. Your interpretation is simply different. I agree with Leo that LT is always representing TOAA. IG instance was not special, imo.

But we'll disagree.
Then we disagree. I know what I suggested is On Panel so
whatever.

btw. I suppose this means Protege > TOAA then.
Originally posted by operator616

I know that according to you (and hopefully everyone), TOAA > all. But what i meant is, if you think IG's power rivals TOAA's, as in, if it's comparable. Because that's what i understood when you said that LT wasn't sure if he could stop Warlock at first, despite having TOAA's authority at his disposal.
LT's uncertainty is LT's reaction. Imo, it was just Starlin highlighting how mighty the IG was,
that even after he had the LT definitively state that he came with TOAA's power (I represent forces) which is Power,
the LT still had to gauge Warlock in order to be sure it was enough.

Beautifully done on Starlin's part imo.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, Infinity wasn't even recognized in the Defenders arc,
like so many times Eternity solely represents Marvel.
Big deal.
They (Eternity/Infinity) share a universe. (Spatial axis and Temporal axis)
They're two sides of the same coin.
This is why Eternity couldn't fight CK, as he noted, it would be like fighting myself.
Simple. When Infinity is acknowledged this idea comes into play,
when she's not,
Eternity is the full power of the universe and/or multiverse.
... real simple.


....Uh, And when did i say that Infinity appeared/mentioned in Defenders, exactly? Must be missing something.

You're missing the point. I know that Eternity sometimes represents the universe alone. Sometimes it's stated that Eternity and Death compromise reality. But non of that changes the fact that regardless of whether it represents it solely or not, Eternity has complete control over time and space. Just like Infinity alone has complete control over time and space. So put two of them together and you have a multi-universal power, imo.

Originally posted by Mr Master

btw. I suppose this means Protege > TOAA then.


I can justify that by saying TOAA maybe orchestrated that for an unknown purpose, just like he orchestrated the events of Marvel: The End.

Originally posted by operator616
....Uh, And when did i say that Infinity appeared/mentioned in Defenders, exactly? Must be missing something.

You're missing the point. I know that Eternity sometimes represents the universe alone. Sometimes it's stated that Eternity and Death compromise reality. But non of that changes the fact that regardless of whether it represents it solely or not, Eternity has complete control over time and space. Just like Infinity alone has complete control over time and space. So put two of them together and you have a multi-universal power, imo.
Perhaps, but I disagree. But let's say yur right, and together they comprise the power of two universes.

Going by that technicality, can't I say hey, Magus was controlling Two separate universes simultaneously,
since each universe has two universes worth of power, then Magus was 4 universes strong.
yet, he was controlling another third universe where his Stronghold was, so that's actually then 6 universes.

I'll stick with the 4 though which is enough to > two universes.

Bit of a paradox no opr?
Originally posted by operator616

I can justify that by saying TOAA maybe orchestrated that for an unknown purpose, just like he orchestrated the events of Marvel: The End.
Well, we can attribute every manipulation to TOAA, it's not like their hands aren't in everything.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So basically, the Starbrand is above the IG due to absolutely ZERO feats, but rather based on LT not punching Eresh in her stupid face?

ima punch you in yur stupid face with mindset's stupid fist.

Haha

Originally posted by leonidas
ima punch you in yur stupid face with mindset's stupid fist. I'm going to drink a litre of chocolate milk and spray shit at you with a wicked fart

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I'm going to drink a litre of chocolate milk and spray shit at you with a wicked fart

shock

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I'm going to drink a litre of chocolate milk and spray shit at you with a wicked fart http://img.pr0gramm.com/2013/07/cartman-pooping.gif

^line? crossed.

Nah. I could have posted real shit gifs, after all.

Ewww

Originally posted by Galan007
http://img.pr0gramm.com/2013/07/cartman-pooping.gif

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I'm going to drink a litre of chocolate milk and spray shit at you with a wicked fart

Originally posted by operator616
Ereshkigal was a potential peer to the Abstracts (although she could have given LT a fight which would have devastated the multiverse, while they were inside the nexus), IG is above them. That makes Warlock > Ereshkigal.

As for Maelstrom (who also had CA, and QB apart from Anomaly's power), he was apparently superior to the IG, despite the fact that the IG clearly possesses greater raw power (it can casually destroy a universe, unlike Maelstrom), and it technically should be above abstract such as anomaly.

So it should be something like Maelstrom > Warlock > Ereshkigal, if we go by the encounters.

But based on raw power, it'd be Warlock > Ereshkigal > Maelstrom.

Only, he didn't prove to be superior to the IG... Tanking a blast and laughing at Thanos with the IG.. doesn't mean you're superior. He would've had to actually beat him in battle... he ran instead. Though I do agree with the rest of your post

Originally posted by operator616
So you're not really paying attention to my post? Here's where i stated why they're universal:



Let's put the scans for those. At the end of Infinity War #6, Eternity says, just like i mentioned in the quote above, "this universe, that is I":

http://i.imgur.com/1ND5olm.jpg?1

Magus' bio/handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/b9BnktU.jpg?1

(read top paragraph, sorry about not editing it, im having problems with editing images currently, for some reason).

And that's right associated with the relevant arc (on panel scan from the relevant arc, and the bio narrating the relevant scene). I don't have to reach into another arc (Infinity Crusade) to prove my point.



Because they were threatening the 616 reality.



Maybe Starlin upgraded his view on Eternity/Infinity after Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War. He portrayed them as universal in those two arcs, there's absolutely no denying that and you know it.



.....Which is definitely false.

I'm curious why Eternity couldn't be saying... this universe that is I.. how does that exclude him from being multiversal? If multiple universes are apart of him... yes one could still say.. the universe is I... that doesn't exclude him being in charge of multiple universes besides that one.

Goid to see u post

Hey Guy... good to see you to buddy

Who do u think wins

Edit ... wrong thread.