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In here we will debate the actions the forum will now take due to the recent changes Disney has made towards Star Wars canon. If you are unfamiliar with the changes, please go here:
http://starwars.com/news/the-legendary-star-wars-expanded-universe-turns-a-new-page.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUm0Lo6DL-E

I'd like someone to first outline how these changes affect the status quo of our little dynamic here.

The old system of canon systems have obviously changed, and the new seem to be:

Canon: The 6 Movies, The Future Movies, The Clone Wars, Rebels, and all future published books from 4/25/2014.
Legends: The entire current Expanded Universe, which is every published book, game, guide, article, encyclopedia, etc that was released before 4/25/2014.
Non-Canon: Anything that doesn't fall under the other two categories, such as fan fiction.

The canon system is simple, anything that is released from now on that is in conflict with "Legends" automatically overwrites the older source in terms of canon, but does not necessary deem the older work "Non-Canon." For example, if a quote from a future book states "Jar-Jar Binks is the most powerful individual in galactic history," it automatically overwrites any source from "Legends" that claims otherwise, and Jar-Jar Binks would now be the undisputed champion of Star War debates.

Lol

People are still deluding themselves.

Explain your thoughts then, non-deluder.

The EU is non-canon.

Nope. The EU is under "Legends."

Now when discussing stuff, we can specify Legends or Non-legends.


Just like comics has Crisis and Pre-Crisis, and yadda yadda.

That's all.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nope. The EU is under "Legends."

Yes, and "Legends" is about as canon as "Infinities"... In other words, it's not. It is its entirely own (non-canon) universe.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, and "Legends" is about as canon as "Infinities"... In other words, it's not. It's is entirely own (non-canon) universe.


We now have two continuities. That's all.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nope. The EU is under "Legends."


Legends is not canon:

http://collider.com/star-wars-movies-expanded-universe/

It's just a respectful name for fans of the old/current EU.

That's not an official source.

http://www.askingsmarterquestions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Ostrich-man-head-in-sand.gif

Ares, seriously, what do you think is going to happen?

People are just going to *not* use 30 years of material?

If so, you might be the one with your head in the sand. People can handle multiple continuities.

Originally posted by Q99
Ares, seriously, what do you think is going to happen?

People are just going to *not* use 30 years of material?

If so, you might be the one with your head in the sand. People can handle multiple continuities.


That's fine, we can always discuss Legends as a different continuity, as long as everyone accepts it's not official canon anymore. DarthAnt66 is clearly having a hard time accepting that.

And I don't blame him. We've all been fans reading comics, novels e.t.c for all these years. But frankly I was getting fed up of the G-Canon and C-Canon crap, with G-Canon taking precedence and consistently crapping all over C-Canon.

At least now every new piece of EU material will just be Canon, on an equal level to the movies and animations.

Originally posted by Q99
Ares, seriously, what do you think is going to happen?

People are just going to *not* use 30 years of material?

If so, you might be the one with your head in the sand. People can handle multiple continuities.

So, what you're saying is it's not canon to the new canon universe. Glad you see reason.

Originally posted by ares834
So, what you're saying is it's not canon to the new canon universe. Glad you see reason.


Sure. And similarly, if there's a big change to the past in the new universe, that won't be canon to the legends universe.



Dealing with multiple continuities is not some new thing, some of us have lots of experience with situations way more complex than this




"No, you must accept it's not official canon," is also not the most accurate way of phrasing it.

It's being actively published and has it's own banner.


It's the old canon. Now we'll have a new canon too.

There's Legends canon, and new canon. The movies and TCW are canon to both. All other old stuff is only canon to Legends, all new movies and new novels are only canon to new EU.

Two canons.


Almost exactly how there's new trek canon and old trek canon.

I have already accepted it's not canon, however I have no accepted it's non-canon. Yes, there is now a difference.

EU's now noncanon.

I think we should carry on as usual until they release episode seven.

I think we should leave out what doesn't exist. Might as well debate fan fiction lol.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I think we should leave out what doesn't exist. Might as well debate fan fiction lol.

You don't seem to get it.

I am holding a copy of "Dark Nest III: The Swarm War." I can see the words and I can feel the pages. Do you know what that means?

That means it EXISTS!

Honestly, why are people acting so dumb? The "Legends" EU exists just fine. All that's changed is that it's now a separate continuity. Furthermore it's a wondrous source of great characters and stories. To just "leave that out" is idiotic.

Suppose we were debating Spiderman. Spiderman has numerous continuties; the comics, the various cartoons, the new movies, the old movies etc. All of those exist, it just means we'd need to specify which version of Spiderman we mean.

If we use the comics version then of course stuff from the cartoons would be considered non-canon, but if we specify we mean say, the Ultimate Spiderman version, then we'd use stuff from his series.

Originally posted by Syndicate
EU's now noncanon.

So what? We still like it and there's no reason to stop debating it.

If you expect me to just forget about characters I adore just because some Suit says they're "not canon" then you're in for a disappointment.

Question: Is the novel adaptations of the movies now under Legends as well, like the novel of The Phantom Menace? And with such, would the Visual Guide for The Phantom Menace also be under Legends as well? Because if they are, lightsaber forms are not canon.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You don't seem to get it.

I am holding a copy of "Dark Nest III: The Swarm War." I can see the words and I can feel the pages. Do you know what that means?

That means it EXISTS!

Honestly, why are people acting so dumb? The "Legends" EU exists just fine. All that's changed is that it's now a separate continuity. Furthermore it's a wondrous source of great characters and stories. To just "leave that out" is idiotic.

Suppose we were debating Spiderman. Spiderman has numerous continuties; the comics, the various cartoons, the new movies, the old movies etc. All of those exist, it just means we'd need to specify which version of Spiderman we mean.

If we use the comics version then of course stuff from the cartoons would be considered non-canon, but if we specify we mean say, the Ultimate Spiderman version, then we'd use stuff from his series.



So what? We still like it and there's no reason to stop debating it.

If you expect me to just forget about characters I adore just because some Suit says they're "not canon" then you're in for a disappointment.
I'm holding a copy of a random SW fan fiction. I can see the pages and feel it in my hand. Doesn't mean it counts lol.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You don't seem to get it.

I am holding a copy of "Dark Nest III: The Swarm War." I can see the words and I can feel the pages. Do you know what that means?

That means it EXISTS!

Honestly, why are people acting so dumb? The "Legends" EU exists just fine. All that's changed is that it's now a separate continuity. Furthermore it's a wondrous source of great characters and stories. To just "leave that out" is idiotic.

Suppose we were debating Spiderman. Spiderman has numerous continuties; the comics, the various cartoons, the new movies, the old movies etc. All of those exist, it just means we'd need to specify which version of Spiderman we mean.

If we use the comics version then of course stuff from the cartoons would be considered non-canon, but if we specify we mean say, the Ultimate Spiderman version, then we'd use stuff from his series.



So what? We still like it and there's no reason to stop debating it.

If you expect me to just forget about characters I adore just because some Suit says they're "not canon" then you're in for a disappointment.

The real issue is whether there will be a continuation of the stories from the old canon, such as Legacy or TOR.

TOR will likely continue. After all they have a new expansion about Revanites coming out soon.

However, all book and comics from here on out will probably take place in the nuEU.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You don't seem to get it.

I am holding a copy of "Dark Nest III: The Swarm War." I can see the words and I can feel the pages. Do you know what that means?

That means it EXISTS!

Honestly, why are people acting so dumb? The "Legends" EU exists just fine. All that's changed is that it's now a separate continuity. Furthermore it's a wondrous source of great characters and stories. To just "leave that out" is idiotic.

Suppose we were debating Spiderman. Spiderman has numerous continuties; the comics, the various cartoons, the new movies, the old movies etc. All of those exist, it just means we'd need to specify which version of Spiderman we mean.

If we use the comics version then of course stuff from the cartoons would be considered non-canon, but if we specify we mean say, the Ultimate Spiderman version, then we'd use stuff from his series.



So what? We still like it and there's no reason to stop debating it.

If you expect me to just forget about characters I adore just because some Suit says they're "not canon" then you're in for a disappointment.



Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Question: Is the novel adaptations of the movies now under Legends as well, like the novel of The Phantom Menace? And with such, would the Visual Guide for The Phantom Menace also be under Legends as well? Because if they are, lightsaber forms are not canon.

Anything in novelisations that couldn't be tied to GL himself AND wasn't contradictory of the newest version of the film was always C-canon, even under the old rules. This includes things like Shatterpoint, Vaapad, Makashi, etc. Kit Fisto's head is only on a desk in Legends continuity. Hence why I am pushing so hard for novelisations to plug the holes left by the schism; they were nearly EU as it was.

Stuff like Revan, Deceived, Fatal Alliance is all in Legends right.

Yes. Everything aside from TCW and movies is currently Legends.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes. Everything aside from TCW and movies is currently Legends.
What about tie in TCW comics and stuff like Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy?

Originally posted by Tzeentch
I'd like someone to first outline how these changes affect the status quo of our little dynamic here.

I also don't see how this changes anything. Even if Luke (LOTF) isn't canon, what's stopping people from using him in debates? The comics section deals with this daily.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Stuff like Revan, Deceived, Fatal Alliance is all in Legends right.

Right but it's odd how they specifically only mentioned how post-ROTJ is invalidated and not the works prior to the movies. So there's a chance they're still main canon.

Might as well use stuff like Maul fighting Kenobi after ROTS on Tatooine lol.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm holding a copy of a random SW fan fiction. I can see the pages and feel it in my hand. Doesn't mean it counts lol.

It certainly counts to the person who wrote it and the people who like it. I consider my own fanfics to be canon to me because I love them.

But anyway, as I said, the Spiderman movies are not canon to the comics. Does that mean the Spiderman movies "don't count" or "don't exist?"

Of course not! It just means that the Spiderman movies are a separate continuity. They "count" just fine.

Furthermore, as I said, the Legends EU is filled with amazing characters and stories. Why would anyone with a brain want to stop discussing these?

Oh and by the way, saying "lol" like that makes you sound brain-damaged.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I also don't see how this changes anything. Even if Luke (LOTF) isn't canon, what's stopping people from using him in debates? The comics section deals with this daily.

Precisely.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What about tie in TCW comics and stuff like Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy?

Not sure. Even the people deciding canon seem to be unsure of these. I'd assume (and hope) they are gone. The new Darth Maul comic, however, will be canon.

It's relatively simple. We can't get forum name changes without Raz around, but this area will not be an EU forum per se any more but a books, comics and games forum, encompassing both the new non-film canon material when it comes out and also all the existing stuff which is now under the 'Legends' label, alongside anything else that comes out under that label. The films section will be for the films simply because that's the medium used; it will no longer be a case of 'films count and nothing else does' as now officially there will be fully canon non-film stuff.

The canon rule will simply be to bear in mind that Legends is not in continuity with the main line, which is in no way a quality judgement but just to make sure everyone is on the same page when talking who or what did x or y in any particular discussion.

My instinct is to say the novels are not Legends- first because the original announcement very strongly suggests that stuff coming so directly from him (not actually directly, as he didn't write any of them, but frankly more direct than Clone Wars) and secondly because they always used to be considered highly canonical. Of course sometimes the novels may contradict things but I reckon we can deal with that in a common sense manner. As for a third, rather more practical reason- I am simply pretty sure the novels won't ever be marketed under the Legends banner.

TCW comics- my instinct says they count as Legends (especially as some were remade for TV), but I'll be open to any clarifying evidence that emerges.

As ever, what you count as your own personal canon or what you value is up to you and unaffected.

What about CWC?

Lacking a definitive list, I think the safe thing to do for now is to say if it wasn't included in the list in the original link, it's not in the new official continuity. I think novels of the films are about as far as I'd be willing to push that before I say 'play safe and treat it as Legends'.

What about stuff said by GL and Nick Gillard

What, a stunt co-ordinator?

Unrelated to canon rules per se, we've always treated what GL says about his own work as very relevant to a discussion. No-one is forced to accept that but it's a oft-accepted consensus. That's about all there is to it.

hey no need to be a douche bag

It was merely a query because it seemed an unusual thing to say. Calm down.

i'm mad calm bro how about u calm down

In my opinion nothing's really changed. With the new Legends category, we'll simply look at canon the same way we always have, which is that unless it's specifically deemed N-Canon (infinities), it's canon unless contradicted by a "higher" source, in which case it gets overruled.

So, if you have a book written in 2006 that exists under the "Legends" category that says that Boba Fett is 5'8 with brown hair, and a new book is released that exists under the "Lucas canon" banner that says he's 5'10 with black hair, we go with him being 5'10 with black hair.

Seems rather simple, imo.

I think you're mostly right there- just that, literally, someone wants to frame a discussion to come from mainline (i.e. non-Legends) continuity only, then that would be e legitimate thing to want. Likewise, people could request Legends only discussions if they want to talk about the old EU. Some measure of thread tagging may be useful.

Still disagreed on the novelisations, as they are chock full of both C-canon and oftentimes expired content like old pre-filming scripts.

Well, fair enough, and possibly more of an issue with the PT novels. It's likely not something to be set in stone., I still doubt they'll ever be released as Legends, though.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose




Thank you

Originally posted by Aes834
However, all book and comics from here on out will probably take place in the nuEU.

Not necessarily. It's been stated that authors still have full access to all the material from the Legends EU so it's quite possible we'll get new books, comics etc set in the Legends continuity.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It's relatively simple. We can't get forum name changes without Raz around, but this area will not be an EU forum per se any more but a books, comics and games forum, encompassing both the new non-film canon material when it comes out and also all the existing stuff which is now under the 'Legends' label, alongside anything else that comes out under that label. The films section will be for the films simply because that's the medium used; it will no longer be a case of 'films count and nothing else does' as now officially there will be fully canon non-film stuff.

The canon rule will simply be to bear in mind that Legends is not in continuity with the main line, which is in no way a quality judgement but just to make sure everyone is on the same page when talking who or what did x or y in any particular discussion.

Well said.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
As ever, what you count as your own personal canon or what you value is up to you and unaffected.

Again, well said. Thank you.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, fair enough, and possibly more of an issue with the PT novels. It's likely not something to be set in stone., I still doubt they'll ever be released as Legends, though.

Yeah, I agree. The OT novelisations, as a whole, are more reliable, with the only non-canon events I can think of being the final battle sequence.

CM, you are welcome.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
In my opinion nothing's really changed. With the new Legends category, we'll simply look at canon the same way we always have, which is that unless it's specifically deemed N-Canon (infinities), it's canon unless contradicted by a "higher" source, in which case it gets overruled.

So, if you have a book written in 2006 that exists under the "Legends" category that says that Boba Fett is 5'8 with brown hair, and a new book is released that exists under the "Lucas canon" banner that says he's 5'10 with black hair, we go with him being 5'10 with black hair.

Seems rather simple, imo.



The big issue here though is that theres going to be things that obviously and irrevocably contradict post-RotJ material. So that stuff is going to become non-canon pretty much immediately when the next film comes out.

Yep.

I'm so excited, honestly. I've been waiting for this for years.

Affirmative action got overturned, Blax. You no longer have to fit in. You can be your own man.

I'm ahead of the curve on that, Janus.

Why, I'm a Man Going His Own Way.

What is the MGTOW salute anyways? A hefty shake of one another's balls?

Originally posted by Tzeentch
In my opinion nothing's really changed. With the new Legends category, we'll simply look at canon the same way we always have, which is that unless it's specifically deemed N-Canon (infinities), it's canon unless contradicted by a "higher" source, in which case it gets overruled.



Well technically all the Legends stuff will be like the old N-Canon(infinities) stuff. The only difference is Legends all takes place through one large continuity of it's own, whilst N-Canon was made up of several different continuities.

But the hierarchy thing is gone. The whole point of the new canon rules is to get rid of hierarchy and just have Canon or not Canon.

Of course naturally there will still be contradictions. The most likely ones are when Film novelizations contradict the scenes shown in the films. But I'm guessing it will still be the the movies that take priority there.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Stuff like Revan are all in Legends right.
Depends, I made a chart:

Still Canonical Important Expanded Universe Characters:

Darth Revan: His story in KotOR is now under Legends, but the character itself is not. It is stated on starwars.com him and the Son had conversations together, along with Darth Bane.

Darth Bane: He is still canon too, but like Revan, his novels are not. His appearance in Season 5 marks his official appearance in lore, and his back story is how he described it there, not from the books.

Darth Plagueis: An obvious one, he is mentioned in RotS, however his novel is no longer canon.

http://lightsaberrattling.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/InsiderCanon.png
The new Star Wars canon has already begun, starting with the new Star Wars Insiders.

Wasn't it stated somewhere that material can be pulled from Legends and placed in the canon universe? I've been looking at the Legends group as more of a "canon purgatory", so to speak. Basically, everything in Legends is in limbo, until it either moves up (pulled into official universe and made canon) or down (made non-canon by contradicting material in the established universe). The Legends material is still there, just not in the "main" universe.