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Who wins?

Time Trapper wins (just so we're clear: Mordru is comparable to the TT, but not his exact equal) since he's capable of creating universes, manipulating all timelines simultaneously (which had a permanent affect btw, this is important) , being beyond the multiverse, being the embodiment of the actual entropy, etc.., etc...

Originally posted by operator616
Time Trapper wins (just so we're clear: Mordru is comparable to the TT, but not his exact equal) since he's capable of creating universes, manipulating all timelines simultaneously (which had a permanent affect btw, this is important) , being beyond the multiverse, being the embodiment of the actual entropy, etc.., etc...

Mordru has created multiple pocket universes at once, though. Don't know where you place that.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Mordru has created multiple pocket universes at once, though. Don't know where you place that.

You mean in the Justice Society arc? I remember him doubting that he created those 8 pockets, i don't think he created them. Ill recheck the scene.

Originally posted by operator616
You mean in the Justice Society arc? I remember him doubting that he created those 8 pockets, i don't think he created them. Ill recheck the scene.

Yeah, I don't remember him doubting himself, but I could be wrong. Astro from another board brought up that he created those realities, so...

Originally posted by Golgo13
Yeah, I don't remember him doubting himself, but I could be wrong. Astro from another board brought up that he created those realities, so...

Well, here it is, from issue #35:

http://i.imgur.com/kT5W313.jpg

He asks whether he created them or if they already exist. No confirmation that he created them as far as im concerned.

--------------

But to answer your question: in LOSH v4 #4 time Trapper actually warped all timelines so that when the LOSH time travel to "superboy"'s timeline which was in the 1930s until Superboy v1 #171 changed it into 1950s, they end up in his own pocket dimension:

http://i.imgur.com/HXhBws1.jpg

That, imo, is a more beastly feat than creating even pocket universes (which TT himself has done). Since it had a permanent effect. Not to mention that the TT operates outside the multiverse, him being unaffected by the crisis is specifically attributed to him being beyond the multiverse in Action Comics #595 letter's page:

http://i.imgur.com/8lWGTkt.jpg?2

Originally posted by operator616
Well, here it is, from issue #35:

http://i.imgur.com/kT5W313.jpg

He asks whether he created them or if they already exist. No confirmation that he created them as far as im concerned.

--------------

But to answer your question: in LOSH v4 #4 time Trapper actually warped all timelines so that when the LOSH time travel to "superboy"'s timeline which was in the 1930s until Superboy v1 #171 changed it into 1950s, they end up in his own pocket dimension:

http://i.imgur.com/HXhBws1.jpg

That, imo, is a more beastly feat than creating even pocket universes (which TT himself has done). Since it had a permanent effect. Not to mention that the TT operates outside the multiverse, him being unaffected by the crisis is specifically attributed to him being beyond the multiverse in Action Comics #595 letter's page:

http://i.imgur.com/8lWGTkt.jpg?2

From the sounds of that pic, it sounded like he was toying with Alan's mind, but he also doesn't say he didn't create them as well. If he did, that's an uber feat.

Originally posted by Golgo13
From the sounds of that pic, it sounded like he was toying with Alan's mind, but he also doesn't say he didn't create them as well. If he did, that's an uber feat.

It should be noted that LoSH Mordru was the one who was constantly compared to Time Trapper, not the one who were referring to, though (but again, it doesn't mean that he's his exact equal).

for instance, GDS (amped) Darkseid/Time Trapper/Mordru/Infinite Man/Stargrave/Omen were all seen being in the same level where Pre-Zero Hour LOSH villains are concerned, however, it doesn't mean that they were all exactly on the power-level

Odin stops time and wrecks him.

Trapper ****ing stomps.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Odin stops time and dies for his troubles.

The King is dead!

Originally posted by operator616
Time Trapper wins (just so we're clear: Mordru is comparable to the TT, but not his exact equal) since he's capable of creating universes, manipulating all timelines simultaneously (which had a permanent affect btw, this is important) , being beyond the multiverse, being the embodiment of the actual entropy, etc.., etc...

Mordru was basically dead even with Glorith, who had all of Time Trappers powers plus extras.

The fight ended in a stalemate, and both in bad shape.

Oh and you likely forgot this Operator. Trapper casually destroyed everything but two planets in a universe to create that pocket universe for Superboy.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16624862/Action_Comics_591_-_08.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16624864/AdventuresOfSuperman444p04and05.jpg.html

Beastly feat.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh and you likely forgot this Operator. Trapper casually destroyed everything but two planets in a universe to create that pocket universe for Superboy.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16624862/Action_Comics_591_-_08.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16624864/AdventuresOfSuperman444p04and05.jpg.html

Beastly feat.

Totally. And didn't Trapper shield it from then Crisis?

The universe is pretty clearly a slice of Pre Crisis time, looking at how closely Superboy resembles PC Superboy.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
The King is dead!
Long live the king!


WTF are we talking about anyway?

Originally posted by cdtm
Totally. And didn't Trapper shield it from then Crisis?

The universe is pretty clearly a slice of Pre Crisis time, looking at how closely Superboy resembles PC Superboy.
Yes he shielded it from crisis.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
The King is dead!

As long as the House of El remains alive, long live the king!

Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh and you likely forgot this Operator. Trapper casually destroyed everything but two planets in a universe to create that pocket universe for Superboy.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16624862/Action_Comics_591_-_08.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16624864/AdventuresOfSuperman444p04and05.jpg.html

Beastly feat.

Those particular scans don't show him destroying the universe, it shows that he reached back in time to when krypton was about to explode and "sliced" that an entire era to make it his own pocket dimension. He did it because he wanted to trick the legion members to meet his own version of Superman -- Superboy, who wasn't actually Superman in his early career like we know him to be in the Pre-crisis stories, but rather an alternate version of him. This happened because Superman's origins were rebooted in Bryne's Man of Steel, and established that he never had a career as Superboy (back then). That's why in Cosmic Boy #1, Superman never recognized Rokk and the latter was surprised sine Superman should have supposedly known him back in his career as Superboy. Same thing with the other Legion members in Superman v2 #8.

That's also how TT created other pocket dimensions, he "sliced" a portion of time. Post-Zero Hour Trapper was stated to do it too in LOSH v3 #105:

http://i.imgur.com/vBcROSU.jpg

---------------------

Also, i specifically focused only on multiversal feats (more than mere universal). And perhaps i wasn't clear enough. By "timelines" i mean actual realities. Because that's how they're mostly treated in the Legion-related comics. This is one example from LoSH #300 where the terms "timelines" and "realities" are used interchangeably:

http://i.imgur.com/ZEYCf5E.jpg?1

As to how many timelines there were pre-crisis, In Superboy #223, Time Trapper himself said that there are infinite futures (infinite parallel universes were already established way back in Superboy #113 letter's page, but let's focus on timelines solely):

http://i.imgur.com/bIO6FG6.jpg?1

And another example, from another pre-crisis title, Warlord v1 #80 also outright said that there are infinite timelines:

http://i.imgur.com/D64MavN.jpg?1

Apart from the time where the Trapper manipulated all (infinite) timelines/universes so that the Legion will end in his pocket (the Legion v4 scan), he also did the same thing in Superman #295:

http://i.imgur.com/qL1G9a0.jpg

and just so you know, in Superman's pre-crisis title, there were times when certain time eras were treated as parallel universes, such as Superman #146, when Supes goes back in time to change the past (which he can't) by not letting Krypton explode, he ends up changing a parallel universe's history (and he did it by traveling through time, so that means other eras and universes are the same thing):

http://i.imgur.com/u6OntpK.jpg

In short: Time Trapper manipulated infinite universes.

Originally posted by cdtm
Mordru was basically dead even with Glorith, who had all of Time Trappers powers plus extras.

The fight ended in a stalemate, and both in bad shape.

That's true, although we must take into account that Time Trapper was still alive even after Mon-el "killed him" and Glorith replaced him; TT later revealed that he merely destroyed his form but not his essence, although he was already dying, and Glorith finished him, but that was after.

But i won't argue with you on this point; Mordru was prety much treated as being the ultimate being in the universe in that continuity, that's why he decided to face Glorith in the first place, because he saw a challenge.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes he shielded it from crisis.

Yup. He had that ability. And the AC letter's page outright confirms that he was beyond its effects. Another example would be Legionnaires 3 mini:

http://i.imgur.com/p5jK4SC.jpg?1

"i should have let the risis destroy you"

Originally posted by operator616
Those particular scans don't show him destroying the universe, it shows that he reached back in time to when krypton was about to explode and "sliced" that an entire era to make it his own pocket dimension. He did it because he wanted to trick the legion members to meet his own version of Superman -- Superboy, who wasn't actually Superman in his early career like we know him to be in the Pre-crisis stories, but rather an alternate version of him. This happened because Superman's origins were rebooted in Bryne's Man of Steel, and established that he never had a career as Superboy (back then). That's why in Cosmic Boy #1, Superman never recognized Rokk and the latter was surprised sine Superman should have supposedly known him back in his career as Superboy. Same thing with the other Legion members in Superman v2 #8.

That's also how TT created other pocket dimensions, he "sliced" a portion of time. Post-Zero Hour Trapper was stated to do it too in LOSH v3 #105:

http://i.imgur.com/vBcROSU.jpg

---------------------

Also, i specifically focused only on multiversal feats (more than mere universal). And perhaps i wasn't clear enough. By "timelines" i mean actual realities. Because that's how they're mostly treated in the Legion-related comics. This is one example from LoSH #300 where the terms "timelines" and "realities" are used interchangeably:

http://i.imgur.com/ZEYCf5E.jpg?1

As to how many timelines there were pre-crisis, In Superboy #223, Time Trapper himself said that there are infinite futures (infinite parallel universes were already established way back in Superboy #113 letter's page, but let's focus on timelines solely):

http://i.imgur.com/bIO6FG6.jpg?1

And another example, from another pre-crisis title, Warlord v1 #80 also outright said that there are infinite timelines:

http://i.imgur.com/D64MavN.jpg?1

Apart from the time where the Trapper manipulated all (infinite) timelines/universes so that the Legion will end in his pocket (the Legion v4 scan), he also did the same thing in Superman #295:

http://i.imgur.com/qL1G9a0.jpg

and just so you know, in Superman's pre-crisis title, there were times when certain time eras were treated as parallel universes, such as Superman #146, when Supes goes back in time to change the past (which he can't) by not letting Krypton explode, he ends up changing a parallel universe's history (and he did it by traveling through time, so that means other eras and universes are the same thing):

http://i.imgur.com/u6OntpK.jpg

In short: Time Trapper manipulated infinite universes.
Yeah, I know of those scenes. Where would you rank Trapper in the abstract hierarchy?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, I know of those scenes. Where would you rank Trapper in the abstract hierarchy?

On Dominus' level.

Originally posted by operator616
On Dominus' level.
And what level would that be? I was asking in marvel terms.

Also I posted in that Gods thread. Take a look if you want.

Originally posted by abhilegend
And what level would that be? I was asking in marvel terms.

It's kind of hard to place him, tbh. Because he also has quite an amount of low showings (which are really low). If we go by high showings only, id put him on multiversal Eternity's level. However, his low showings kind of diminish that power, which is the main reason he's comparable to someone like Mordru. On average, id put him above Galactus but below someone like Eternity.

When i was ranking him on Dominus' level, i was mostly thinking of his high showings, to be fair.

Originally posted by operator616
It's kind of hard to place him, tbh. Because he also has quite an amount of low showings (which are really low). If we go by high showings only, id put him on multiversal Eternity's level. However, his low showings kind of diminish that power, which is the main reason he's comparable to someone like Mordru. On average, id put him above Galactus but below someone like Eternity.

When i was ranking him on Dominus' level, i was mostly thinking of his high showings, to be fair. Who has TT beat, and who has beaten him?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Who has TT beat, and who has beaten him?


Well, he killed Pocket Universe Superboy (essentially Pre Crisis Superboy preserved from the Crisis) outright, nearly killed Mon El, and shrugged off whatever the Legion threw at him.

And it's only through pis that he didn't just outright kill them, as he needs them to exist. I mean, he created a barrier in time that Superboy and Mon El couldn't pierce, but the barrier was used as a kind of chronal bomb on Phantom Girl, sending her back in time where she became Phase of Vril Dox's L.E.G.I.O.N (You know, Lobo's team when he's not messing with heroes). A weapon like that alone is pretty much impossible to defend against..

Plus there's what Abhi said about wiping out most of a universe, except for PC Superboy and Earth, which includes the likes of Mordru and various skyfather level entities.

Originally posted by operator616

But to answer your question: in LOSH v4 #4 time Trapper actually warped all timelines so that when the LOSH time travel to "superboy"'s timeline which was in the 1930s until Superboy v1 #171 changed it into 1950s, they end up in his own pocket dimension:

http://i.imgur.com/HXhBws1.jpg

It's not your fault, ... but this feat makes no sense if that's the sole reasoning behind re-arranging an entire multiverse.
I mean, he warped an infinite amount of universes to affect a handful of time-travelers?

Anyway, perhaps I'm missing something not clarified in those scans, cause tbh, the feat is a wtf.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's not your fault, ... but this feat makes no sense if that's the sole reasoning behind re-arranging an entire multiverse.
I mean, he warped an infinite amount of universes to affect a handful of time-travelers?

Reminds me of an argument where cats had Jean manipulating an entire universe to affect Scott's mind.

Anyway, perhaps I'm missing something not clarified in those scans, cause tbh, the feat is a wtf.

The LOSH was inspired by Superboy, and with the Crisis, Superboy no longer existed. This convoluted Pocket Universe story was Byrnes solution to the problem.

Which broke down around Zero Hour, leading to the destruction of the pocket universe, leading to yet more replacement inspirations.. Basically, the LOSH never should have linked their history to mainstream continuity after the Crisis and done their own thing, like Ultimates. Have their own Superboy forever if they wanted to, and never ever cross over with the mainstream universe..

Hindsight, I guess.

Originally posted by cdtm
Well, he killed Pocket Universe Superboy (essentially Pre Crisis Superboy preserved from the Crisis) outright, nearly killed Mon El, and shrugged off whatever the Legion threw at him.

And it's only through pis that he didn't just outright kill them, as he needs them to exist. I mean, he created a barrier in time that Superboy and Mon El couldn't pierce, but the barrier was used as a kind of chronal bomb on Phantom Girl, sending her back in time where she became Phase of Vril Dox's L.E.G.I.O.N (You know, Lobo's team when he's not messing with heroes). A weapon like that alone is pretty much impossible to defend against..

Plus there's what Abhi said about wiping out most of a universe, except for PC Superboy and Earth, which includes the likes of Mordru and various skyfather level entities. So... no one important to place him above Galactus level, or Eternity level?

And I think him killing Mordru would have been a big deal, but all he did was slice out a sliver of time.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's not your fault, ... but this feat makes no sense if that's the sole reasoning behind re-arranging an entire multiverse.
I mean, he warped an infinite amount of universes to affect a handful of time-travelers?

Anyway, perhaps I'm missing something not clarified in those scans, cause tbh, the feat is a wtf. You could take it as him warping every universe, or you could see it as him specifically only altering their path to the past. No matter from what universe they entered, they would all end up in the same universe without his manipulation. All he did was switch the path with his pocket universe instead. Mind you it would have still taken a lot of power, but still.

I mean, the guy was scared of Mordru who was destined to be a universal ruler... when he wasn't a ruler yet. Are we to really presume he can warp the multiverse in any significant way?

Originally posted by cdtm
The LOSH was inspired by Superboy, and with the Crisis, Superboy no longer existed. This convoluted Pocket Universe story was Byrnes solution to the problem.

Which broke down around Zero Hour, leading to the destruction of the pocket universe, leading to yet more replacement inspirations.. Basically, the LOSH never should have linked their history to mainstream continuity after the Crisis and done their own thing, like Ultimates. Have their own Superboy forever if they wanted to, and never ever cross over with the mainstream universe..

Hindsight, I guess.
I see, so this story isn't or wasn't supposed to be canon to mainstream?
Or Byrne did try to squeeze it in and instead made a mess?

Also, is that "timelines" reference being interpreted properly via context,
cause I'm still not seeing the logic behind such a momentous feat to achieve such a minute result?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

or you could see it as him specifically only altering their path to the past. No matter from what universe they entered, they would all end up in the same universe without his manipulation. All he did was switch the path with his pocket universe instead. Mind you it would have still taken a lot of power, but still.

I mean, the guy was scared of Mordru who was destined to be a universal ruler... when he wasn't a ruler yet. Are we to really presume he can warp the multiverse in any significant way?
That actually makes sense and gives logic to the timelines reference.

Seems like a vast time manipulator rather than a multi-reality manipulator
which is why he had to go through that trouble to attain his goal.

I heard he destroyed most of a universe, so he should be at-least close if not universal.
(I don't however know how he did it)

Originally posted by Mr Master
I see, so this story isn't or wasn't supposed to be canon to mainstream?
Or Byrne did try to squeeze it in and instead made a mess?

There was crossover with Byrnes Superman. Just before Trapper killed Superboy in his final Legion story.

So yeah, Byrne tried to squeeze it in. The thing is, unlike mainstream stories, Legion continuity insists on keeping its entire Pre Crisis history intact, so creating a Pre Crisis Superboy from a pocket universe probably looked like a good idea at the time.. When that didn't pan out, Mon El (The Legions Daxamite, with the same power set as Superboy) was retconned into Superboys role in many past stories, and they created a female Daxamite out of nowhere called Laural Gand who played Supergirls past roles.

The tl:dr version, Legion continuity is a mess, and even long time readers struggle to make sense of it. They rival Hawkman in that you regard.



Trapper somehow arranged it so the Legion (or Superboy) went to his pocket universe every time they tried to reach mainstream DC's past. Again, his excuse was so Superboy could inspire the Legion so that he could exist, and the writers rational was to try and preserve past Legion history intact, all the way back to their days as a backup story in Superboy.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That actually makes sense and gives logic to the timelines reference.

Seems like a vast time manipulator rather than a multi-reality manipulator
which is why he had to go through that trouble to attain his goal.

I heard he destroyed most of a universe, so he should be at-least close if not universal.
(I don't however know how he did it)

Posted by Abhi in the last page:


http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16624862/Action_Comics_591_-_08.jpg.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16624864/AdventuresOfSuperman444p04and05.jpg.html

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also, is that "timelines" reference being interpreted properly via context,
cause I'm still not seeing the logic behind such a momentous feat to achieve such a minute result? Here's the actual feat being done.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0007.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0008.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0009.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0010.jpg

Trapper stating he was actively guiding them.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0006.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg


Basically the Trapper was just directing them there. Just like he was in the Green Lantern scenario (directed the GL energy into the time stream where it would hit a shitload of other realities). He wasn't actually warping other universes, and it appears I was wrong on him even warping their direction without his guidance.

Just a note, but (weakened) Time Trapper got beaten to death by Mon-El in the same story he stated he warped all timelines, so that.

i believe bran's stance is that tt is being very much over-rated here. i agree.

Time Trapper

Originally posted by leonidas
i believe bran's stance is that tt is being very much over-rated here. i agree.
Nope.

uhuh

So who wins? Time Trapper seems to have some nice feats but the scale of them aren't beyond Odin's
scope. How's his combat record compared to the All-Father?

His feats are beyond Odin's feats and he's an avatar of entropy. He can stalemate Infinite Man in raw power who derives his power from every point of time and space.

http://i.imgur.com/bphYjk5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/U327JIt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OEg7EVn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hI189qq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SyYjkST.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tNE2AMb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HTfHUxy.jpg

And he returned even from one place which totally contradicts his existence aka the birth of universe.

That's better than anything Odin has done against an abstract. He has also casually stopped the crisis wave from destroying the pocket universe which was an unprecedented feat. So he has better feats than Odin in just two dozen or such showings.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Here's the actual feat being done.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0007.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0008.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0009.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0010.jpg

Trapper stating he was actively guiding them.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0006.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg


Basically the Trapper was just directing them there. Just like he was in the Green Lantern scenario (directed the GL energy into the time stream where it would hit a shitload of other realities). He wasn't actually warping other universes, and it appears I was wrong on him even warping their direction without his guidance.

Just a note, but (weakened) Time Trapper got beaten to death by Mon-El in the same story he stated he warped all timelines, so that.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Time Trapper warping the timelines. At all. It's a completely different instance. Well, firstly because that happened about 30 years prior to your scans, off-panel. The chronological time period in which Time Trapper performed this feat is right before Adventure Comics #247 (1958). Because that's when the Legion (there were only 3 members back then) traveled to Superboy's time period (back then, 1930s). And ever since TT was manipulating them. It was confirmed multiple times that Time Trapper tampering with time (back then, it wasn't known that "all timelines" were affected, just that he tampered with time) is what caused the Legion to always meet Trapper's Superboy, here's one from AC #591:

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

And this post-crisis Superman issue outright references Legion's very first appearance in Adventure Comics #247 (first four scans summarize the issue exactly as it is, and the last one references various pre-crisis Legion adventures)

http://i.imgur.com/CL91lQs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/45mMHoH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RXkcEDg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o09Jxw2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ziPcst2.jpg

And we know Time Trapper arranged all that (this was confirmed multiple times):

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

Then after this, the revelation in LOSH v4 came that TT warped "all timelines" to achieve this. That's why you won't find Time Trapper actually doing this feat live. Because it was a revelation which came later. Well that, and because back in his early adventure comics appearances he was signficantly weaker than we know him to be in his later Pre-Zero Hour and Post-Zero Hour appearances. Which is understandable since that time period of comics didn't feature cosmic beings like they did in the bronze age (i mean, there were some, heck, i remember Luthor becoming omnipotent even in the Golden Age, but it was very rare) Just take a look at Adventure Comics #338, where Time Trapper transforms (through technology) some of the Legion members into babies and when the curtain of time fades away (which curtails time travel) Superboy appears and TT is afraid of him. He wasn't as powerful as back then. But he became later, which is why this was a revelation afterward.

Anyway, what your scans show is Superboy -- who was capable of time traveling under his own power, unlike Bryne's Superman -- breaking the time barrier to transport the Legion to the Time Trapper who was threatening Superboy's universe unless he delivered him the Legion. Nothing to do with the timelines warping.



Originally posted by Branlor Swift

Just a note, but (weakened) Time Trapper got beaten to death by Mon-El in the same story he stated he warped all timelines, so that.

OK, first of all, Mon-el didn't beat Time Trapper to death, it was Glorith that did that afterwards.

So, Mon-el supposedly kills Time Trapper in issue #4, then in issue #13, Time Trapper says that Mon-el merely destroyed his form but not his essence:

http://i.imgur.com/Ov0ctm2.jpg?1

Also, you might wanna emphasize on the "weakened" part. Because TT was more than just "weakened" he was damn near close death. Infinite Man beat him to near Death in LOSH v3 #50. He was so weak that he literally hid a spark of himself inside Mon-el. So imagine at what power-level he must be operating at?

http://i.imgur.com/0SKCkNy.jpg?1

Lastly, saying that Mon-el "killed" the Time Trapper in the same story where he was stated to warp timelines is completely irrelevant, because he didn't warp the timelines in that story (i already explained this in detail), so im not sure what's your point here?

Originally posted by leonidas
i believe bran's stance is that tt is being very much over-rated here. i agree.

You're free to elaborate. Because from what i saw, it's more like lowballing based on out of context scans.

Originally posted by abhilegend
His feats are beyond Odin's feats and he's an avatar of entropy. He can stalemate Infinite Man in raw power who derives his power from every point of time and space.


And he returned even from one place which totally contradicts his existence aka the birth of universe.

That's better than anything Odin has done against an abstract. He has also casually stopped the crisis wave from destroying the pocket universe which was an unprecedented feat. So he has better feats than Odin in just two dozen or such showings.

Time Trapper is also the very embodiment of entropy.

Time Trapper was beaten by Infinite Man, which is the main reason he hid a part of himself in Mon-el and reemerged after that 5-year gap into LOSH v4.

I posted the scan for that in my previous reply.

Originally posted by operator616
This has absolutely nothing to do with Time Trapper warping the timelines. At all. It's a completely different instance. Well, firstly because that happened about 30 years prior to your scans, off-panel. The chronological time period in which Time Trapper performed this feat is right before Adventure Comics #247 (1958). Because that's when the Legion (there were only 3 members back then) traveled to Superboy's time period (back then, 1930s). And ever since TT was manipulating them. It was confirmed multiple times that Time Trapper tampering with time (back then, it wasn't known that "all timelines" were affected, just that he tampered with time) is what caused the Legion to always meet Trapper's Superboy, here's one from AC #591:

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

And this post-crisis Superman issue outright references Legion's very first appearance in Adventure Comics #247 (first four scans summarize the issue exactly as it is, and the last one references various pre-crisis Legion adventures)

http://i.imgur.com/CL91lQs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/45mMHoH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RXkcEDg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o09Jxw2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ziPcst2.jpg

And we know Time Trapper arranged all that (this was confirmed multiple times):

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

Then after this, the revelation in LOSH v4 came that TT warped "all timelines" to achieve this. That's why you won't find Time Trapper actually doing this feat live. Because it was a revelation which came later. Well that, and because back in his early adventure comics appearances he was signficantly weaker than we know him to be in his later Pre-Zero Hour and Post-Zero Hour appearances. Which is understandable since that time period of comics didn't feature cosmic beings like they did in the bronze age (i mean, there were some, heck, i remember Luthor becoming omnipotent even in the Golden Age, but it was very rare) Just take a look at Adventure Comics #338, where Time Trapper transforms (through technology) some of the Legion members into babies and when the curtain of time fades away (which curtails time travel) Superboy appears and TT is afraid of him. He wasn't as powerful as back then. But he became later, which is why this was a revelation afterward.

Anyway, what your scans show is Superboy -- who was capable of time traveling under his own power, unlike Bryne's Superman -- breaking the time barrier to transport the Legion to the Time Trapper who was threatening Superboy's universe unless he delivered him the Legion. Nothing to do with the timelines warping.





OK, first of all, Mon-el didn't beat Time Trapper to death, it was Glorith that did that afterwards.

So, Mon-el supposedly kills Time Trapper in issue #4, then in issue #13, Time Trapper says that Mon-el merely destroyed his form but not his essence:

http://i.imgur.com/Ov0ctm2.jpg?1

Also, you might wanna emphasize on the "weakened" part. Because TT was more than just "weakened" he was damn near close death. Infinite Man beat him to near Death in LOSH v3 #50. He was so weak that he literally hid a spark of himself inside Mon-el. So imagine at what power-level he must be operating at?

http://i.imgur.com/0SKCkNy.jpg?1

Lastly, saying that Mon-el "killed" the Time Trapper in the same story where he was stated to warp timelines is completely irrelevant, because he didn't warp the timelines in that story (i already explained this in detail), so im not sure what's your point here?


Bran got owned.

Originally posted by operator616
You're free to elaborate. Because from what i saw, it's more like lowballing based on out of context scans.



Time Trapper is also the very embodiment of entropy.

Time Trapper was beaten by Infinite Man, which is the main reason he hid a part of himself in Mon-el and reemerged after that 5-year gap into LOSH v4.

I posted the scan for that in my previous reply.
Trapper wasn't beaten by Infinite Man. They were stalemating and then Brainy helped IM taking Trapper to the beginning of time which contradicts his very existence.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's not your fault, ... but this feat makes no sense if that's the sole reasoning behind re-arranging an entire multiverse.
I mean, he warped an infinite amount of universes to affect a handful of time-travelers?

Anyway, perhaps I'm missing something not clarified in those scans, cause tbh, the feat is a wtf.

See below.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You could take it as him warping every universe, or you could see it as him specifically only altering their path to the past. No matter from what universe they entered, they would all end up in the same universe without his manipulation. All he did was switch the path with his pocket universe instead. Mind you it would have still taken a lot of power, but still.


He specifically mentions that he warped all timelines. And him saying that he guided their path doesn't contradict that at all. Because he guided their path by warping all timelines. Also, it wasn't just "Legion's path" that he guided, because that would contradict many Pre-Crisis Legion stories. Random example: Like in Superboy #204, when a device (which had nothing to do with Legion, which was separate) altered Superboy's era (which according to the retcon would be in the pocket dimension). So that means everyone, Legionnaires or not, are included in this manipulation.

Another thing, is that it actually makes sense that Time Trapper manipulated whole timelines rather than not, because it could explain certain things. Among which is, Supergirl, of course. Who was completely erased from continuity in Crisis On Infinite Earths, yet, the Legion continuity acknowledged her, and she was never established to be part of Trapper's pocket (the original, i mean). When not in Legion's era, Pre-crisis Superboy and Supergirl mostly operated in two different eras (adventure comics #350)

http://i.imgur.com/1rl4Hih.jpg?1

So notice the contradiction according to the retcon: Supergirl knew what the future holds for Superboy because of Superman, but Superboy wasn't Superman as an adult. So that could all be explained away by Trapper's mucking with the timelines. That's one solution i see how to explain that he warped "all timelines" (well, apart from the above reason i stated).

All those adventure comics were also referenced in post-crisis Legion issues, so they have to fit somehow, and with all this mess, you can throw it at time trapper warping the timelines, imo. Especially when it's connected to Superboy.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

I mean, the guy was scared of Mordru who was destined to be a universal ruler... when he wasn't a ruler yet. Are we to really presume he can warp the multiverse in any significant way?

I wonder, why are you using this against the Time Trapper? Because you know he was de-powered at that time period, you referenced it yourself in the very next post. Depowered to a point where he had to hide a portion of himself inside Mon-el, so why wouldn't he be threatened by a potentially universal being, at the brink of death?

But aside from that, take a look at End of an Era, when Time Trapper literally calls Mordru a "minor" power:

http://i.imgur.com/ZzF2eEY.jpg?1

Doesn't look like he was afraid of him here, unlike when he was in a time period when he was near death....no?

I mean, if Time Trapper refers to Mordru as a minor power in the same arc where he absorbed enough energies to give him control over all timelines (all time and space), are we really to presume that he can't affect the multiverse in any significant way?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Trapper wasn't beaten by Infinite Man. They were stalemating and then Brainy helped IM taking Trapper to the beginning of time which contradicts his very existence.

Yeah, i just rechecked the scene, he had a bit of help from B5. I actually missed that part.

Although, it's kind of weird; i mean, yeah, Time Trapper's nature of residing at the end of time should contradict that beginning of time would contradict his existence, but we know from Adventures of Superman #444 (which is around the same period as LOSH v3 #50), that Time Trapper was born at that same time:

http://i.imgur.com/vNy7wk4.jpg?1

Also, to clarify: the Mon-el part stays the same. He was beaten by IM (helped by B5) and hid himself inside Mon-el. I just missed the part where B5 lends him a hand.

Originally posted by operator616
Yeah, i just rechecked the scene, he had a bit of help from B5. I actually missed that part.

Although, it's kind of weird; i mean, yeah, Time Trapper's nature of residing at the end of time should contradict that beginning of time would contradict his existence, but we know from Adventures of Superman #444 (which is around the same period as LOSH v3 #50), that Time Trapper was born at that same time:

http://i.imgur.com/vNy7wk4.jpg?1

Also, to clarify: the Mon-el part stays the same. He was beaten by IM (helped by B5) and hid himself inside Mon-el. I just missed the part where B5 lends him a hand.
Yeah, that was weird.

Originally posted by operator616
This has absolutely nothing to do with Time Trapper warping the timelines. At all. It's a completely different instance. Well, firstly because that happened about 30 years prior to your scans, off-panel. The chronological time period in which Time Trapper performed this feat is right before Adventure Comics #247 (1958). Because that's when the Legion (there were only 3 members back then) traveled to Superboy's time period (back then, 1930s). And ever since TT was manipulating them. It was confirmed multiple times that Time Trapper tampering with time (back then, it wasn't known that "all timelines" were affected, just that he tampered with time) is what caused the Legion to always meet Trapper's Superboy, here's one from AC #591:

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

And this post-crisis Superman issue outright references Legion's very first appearance in Adventure Comics #247 (first four scans summarize the issue exactly as it is, and the last one references various pre-crisis Legion adventures)

http://i.imgur.com/CL91lQs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/45mMHoH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RXkcEDg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o09Jxw2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ziPcst2.jpg

And we know Time Trapper arranged all that (this was confirmed multiple times):

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

Then after this, the revelation in LOSH v4 came that TT warped "all timelines" to achieve this. That's why you won't find Time Trapper actually doing this feat live. Because it was a revelation which came later. Well that, and because back in his early adventure comics appearances he was signficantly weaker than we know him to be in his later Pre-Zero Hour and Post-Zero Hour appearances. Which is understandable since that time period of comics didn't feature cosmic beings like they did in the bronze age (i mean, there were some, heck, i remember Luthor becoming omnipotent even in the Golden Age, but it was very rare) Just take a look at Adventure Comics #338, where Time Trapper transforms (through technology) some of the Legion members into babies and when the curtain of time fades away (which curtails time travel) Superboy appears and TT is afraid of him. He wasn't as powerful as back then. But he became later, which is why this was a revelation afterward.
by
Anyway, what your scans show is Superboy -- who was capable of time traveling under his own power, unlike Bryne's Superman -- breaking the time barrier to transport the Legion to the Time Trapper who was threatening Superboy's universe unless he delivered him the Legion. Nothing to do with the timelines warping.





OK, first of all, Mon-el didn't beat Time Trapper to death, it was Glorith that did that afterwards.

So, Mon-el supposedly kills Time Trapper in issue #4, then in issue #13, Time Trapper says that Mon-el merely destroyed his form but not his essence:

http://i.imgur.com/Ov0ctm2.jpg?1

Also, you might wanna emphasize on the "weakened" part. Because TT was more than just "weakened" he was damn near close death. Infinite Man beat him to near Death in LOSH v3 #50. He was so weak that he literally hid a spark of himself inside Mon-el. So imagine at what power-level he must be operating at?

http://i.imgur.com/0SKCkNy.jpg?1

Lastly, saying that Mon-el "killed" the Time Trapper in the same story where he was stated to warp timelines is completely irrelevant, because he didn't warp the timelines in that story (i already explained this in detail), so im not sure what's your point here?

How powerful is Infinite Man? What's he actually done?

I assume he must be pretty powerful, but I don't know much about him outside of the fact he somehow exists along a perpetual time loop and is powered by all of time, but in terms of feats..?

Originally posted by cdtm
How powerful is Infinite Man? What's he actually done?

I assume he must be pretty powerful, but I don't know much about him outside of the fact he somehow exists along a perpetual time loop and is powered by all of time, but in terms of feats..?

He's extremely powerful, at least later on. Initially in his first appearance, just like Time Trapper, he wasn't all that powerful. But later on, he was universal at the very least.

At the same time period of COIE. He absorbed some of Anti-Monitor's energies to free himself (which is a pretty cool feat) in LOSH v3 #18:

http://i.imgur.com/UZ9U2aM.jpg

Here's a bio confirming it:

http://i.imgur.com/4Y3GmoD.jpg?1

Later on, in "End of An Era" arc, Mordru/Glorith in possession of Infinite Man's powers, were stated to possess "complete control over time and space" (all timelines essentially):

http://i.imgur.com/o3FbW8W.jpg

And they demonstrated that power by warping reality:

http://i.imgur.com/3v7oE6B.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gAXRHDy.jpg

Which is why Time Trapper stalemating Pre-Zero Hour Infinite Man, is very impressive.

I had a long post almost done, and then my computer restarted and lost everything. Guess I'll condense it.

Originally posted by operator616
This has absolutely nothing to do with Time Trapper warping the timelines. At all. It's a completely different instance. Well, firstly because that happened about 30 years prior to your scans, off-panel. The chronological time period in which Time Trapper performed this feat is right before Adventure Comics #247 (1958). Because that's when the Legion (there were only 3 members back then) traveled to Superboy's time period (back then, 1930s). And ever since TT was manipulating them. It was confirmed multiple times that Time Trapper tampering with time (back then, it wasn't known that "all timelines" were affected, just that he tampered with time) is what caused the Legion to always meet Trapper's Superboy, here's one from AC #591:

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

And this post-crisis Superman issue outright references Legion's very first appearance in Adventure Comics #247 (first four scans summarize the issue exactly as it is, and the last one references various pre-crisis Legion adventures)

http://i.imgur.com/CL91lQs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/45mMHoH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RXkcEDg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o09Jxw2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ziPcst2.jpg

And we know Time Trapper arranged all that (this was confirmed multiple times):

http://i.imgur.com/6ZXi5d3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5JQ6eU1.jpg

Then after this, the revelation in LOSH v4 came that TT warped "all timelines" to achieve this. That's why you won't find Time Trapper actually doing this feat live. Because it was a revelation which came later. Well that, and because back in his early adventure comics appearances he was signficantly weaker than we know him to be in his later Pre-Zero Hour and Post-Zero Hour appearances. Which is understandable since that time period of comics didn't feature cosmic beings like they did in the bronze age (i mean, there were some, heck, i remember Luthor becoming omnipotent even in the Golden Age, but it was very rare) Just take a look at Adventure Comics #338, where Time Trapper transforms (through technology) some of the Legion members into babies and when the curtain of time fades away (which curtails time travel) Superboy appears and TT is afraid of him. He wasn't as powerful as back then. But he became later, which is why this was a revelation afterward.

Anyway, what your scans show is Superboy -- who was capable of time traveling under his own power, unlike Bryne's Superman -- breaking the time barrier to transport the Legion to the Time Trapper who was threatening Superboy's universe unless he delivered him the Legion. Nothing to do with the timelines warping. Bah, that's not what I meant, but I can see how it got construed as such.

What I meant was that that was actually him sending them to the pocket universe and "manipulating time" to accomplish this. Which would have been the effect of him warping all timelines. And presumably if Trapper is guiding them everytime, then what exactly does "warping all timelines" entail?

Hell, even in your recap the flashback of Trapper shows him touching his ball in the same way he did when he guided them. And when you connect that with this scan:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0006.jpg

Where Trapper outright says he was guiding them in their first travel, it means he didn't just warp a bunch of timelines and they magically appeared there.
As well as Trapper says "Each time"
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg


So with that info, what exactly did trapper do when he "warped all timelines"? Because we know he guided them there everytime they went there. We've seen him do it, and we have confirmation of him doing it.

And the whole "warping all timelines" seems questionable given that Trapper told Glorith that they weren't actually traveling through time, but to another dimension (though this seems questionable as well).
http://i60.tinypic.com/25qeidw.jpg

So again, since he guided them to the dimension, and it wasn't actually time travel (apparently), then what exactly does "warping all timelines" mean? How big of a feat is this? How much stock do we put into it when we've actually seen how he accomplishes this?

Now let's play a game, but without Legion 4 happening, where would you place his feat? And by that I mean the "Warping all timelines" line.

Originally posted by operator616
OK, first of all, Mon-el didn't beat Time Trapper to death, it was Glorith that did that afterwards.

So, Mon-el supposedly kills Time Trapper in issue #4, then in issue #13, Time Trapper says that Mon-el merely destroyed his form but not his essence:

http://i.imgur.com/Ov0ctm2.jpg?1

Also, you might wanna emphasize on the "weakened" part. Because TT was more than just "weakened" he was damn near close death. Infinite Man beat him to near Death in LOSH v3 #50. He was so weak that he literally hid a spark of himself inside Mon-el. So imagine at what power-level he must be operating at?

http://i.imgur.com/0SKCkNy.jpg?1

Lastly, saying that Mon-el "killed" the Time Trapper in the same story where he was stated to warp timelines is completely irrelevant, because he didn't warp the timelines in that story (i already explained this in detail), so im not sure what's your point here? Seems like schematics to me.

Mon-El killed his physical body but not his essence. However, even his essence was dying from the beatdown.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2hqgqj4.jpg

He was essentially just a dying ghost at that point. So yes, he was still alive but "dead". Though I'm curious if I would have put quotations around it in the first place that you would have responded the same.

So... what you're saying is that Time Trapper was weakened?


Because that story is the only "proof" that Time Trapper somehow warped the multiverse. No he didn't do anything in the story, but it's the same story that you're using solely to put him on a multi Eternity level. And weakened or not (super weakened, sorry) it seems funny that he was actually beaten to death ("death" by Mon-El.

Originally posted by operator616
He specifically mentions that he warped all timelines. And him saying that he guided their path doesn't contradict that at all. Because he guided their path by warping all timelines. Also, it wasn't just "Legion's path" that he guided, because that would contradict many Pre-Crisis Legion stories. Random example: Like in Superboy #204, when a device (which had nothing to do with Legion, which was separate) altered Superboy's era (which according to the retcon would be in the pocket dimension). So that means everyone, Legionnaires or not, are included in this manipulation.

Another thing, is that it actually makes sense that Time Trapper manipulated whole timelines rather than not, because it could explain certain things. Among which is, Supergirl, of course. Who was completely erased from continuity in Crisis On Infinite Earths, yet, the Legion continuity acknowledged her, and she was never established to be part of Trapper's pocket (the original, i mean). When not in Legion's era, Pre-crisis Superboy and Supergirl mostly operated in two different eras (adventure comics #350)

http://i.imgur.com/1rl4Hih.jpg?1

So notice the contradiction according to the retcon: Supergirl knew what the future holds for Superboy because of Superman, but Superboy wasn't Superman as an adult. So that could all be explained away by Trapper's mucking with the timelines. That's one solution i see how to explain that he warped "all timelines" (well, apart from the above reason i stated).

All those adventure comics were also referenced in post-crisis Legion issues, so they have to fit somehow, and with all this mess, you can throw it at time trapper warping the timelines, imo. Especially when it's connected to Superboy. That'd be all well and good if we didn't actually see how he guided their path. He had to actually interfere to make them enter the pocket universe.

And can you actually attribute any of the bottom of what you said to Time Trapper? Or are you connecting dots where there's none?
IE, Supergirl's existence. On panel, being due to Time Trapper. Or is it just a continuity error? I mean, it was PC as well, and I'm assuming it was before Legion started trying to "explain" things. Why must it be due to Trapper?


Originally posted by operator616
I wonder, why are you using this against the Time Trapper? Because you know he was de-powered at that time period, you referenced it yourself in the very next post. Depowered to a point where he had to hide a portion of himself inside Mon-el, so why wouldn't he be threatened by a potentially universal being, at the brink of death?

But aside from that, take a look at End of an Era, when Time Trapper literally calls Mordru a "minor" power:

http://i.imgur.com/ZzF2eEY.jpg?1

Doesn't look like he was afraid of him here, unlike when he was in a time period when he was near death....no?

I mean, if Time Trapper refers to Mordru as a minor power in the same arc where he absorbed enough energies to give him control over all timelines (all time and space), are we really to presume that he can't affect the multiverse in any significant way? When he actually "warped all timelines" he wasn't weakened though (unless I'm missing something). And his entire purpose behind "warping all timelines" was a plan to defeat Mordru.
Because he did it before he was inside Mon-El.

Trapper's entire history besides Prime Trapper was about getting back at Mordru. I don't think one statement overrides all of that.

Plus there's Glorith actually stalemating Mordru, so...

Probably, yeah. Because even if Mordru was far below him, that doesn't put him at multiversal levels.

http://likegif.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/popcorn-gif-57.gif

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

Bah, that's not what I meant, but I can see how it got construed as such.

What I meant was that that was actually him sending them to the pocket universe and "manipulating time" to accomplish this. Which would have been the effect of him warping all timelines. And presumably if Trapper is guiding them everytime, then what exactly does "warping all timelines" entail?

Hell, even in your recap the flashback of Trapper shows him touching his ball in the same way he did when he guided them. And when you connect that with this scan:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0006.jpg

Where Trapper outright says he was guiding them in their first travel, it means he didn't just warp a bunch of timelines and they magically appeared there.
As well as Trapper says "Each time"
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg

So with that info, what exactly did trapper do when he "warped all timelines"? Because we know he guided them there everytime they went there. We've seen him do it, and we have confirmation of him doing it.


Which is still irrelevant. Because either way, that's not the "manipulating all timelines" in effect because that got weakened when the Crisis came. That's where this whole mess started to reveal itself. Firstly, in the Cosmic Boy mini-series, it was Cosmic Boy along with Nigh Girl traveled to the 20th century era and actually ended up in the real, not the pocket, universe. Because of the Crisis time distortions. Same thing happened in a couple of issues of Booster Gold (at that same time period) to the Legion members. That's why post-crisis, his manipulation of the timelines was weakened, and you can't use this post-crisis.

Yes, what about "each time"? Consider this: Time Trapper warped all timelines so that each time when the Legion travels through time, they end up in his pocket dimension. Not seeing what's the problem here.

Anyway, re-look at the Legion v4 scan, it pretty clearly implies that he warped timelines so that the Legion travel to his Earth without him actively guiding them each time. And neither is there proof that he was guiding them each and every time. I mean, do you honestly believe that when the retcon happened, the writer meant for the Trapper to manipulate the Legion every single time they travel, rather than arranging the timelines so that whenever they travel, they end up in the pocket?

We'll resolve what "warping all timelines" means, in the second post.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

And the whole "warping all timelines" seems questionable given that Trapper told Glorith that they weren't actually traveling through time, but to another dimension (though this seems questionable as well).
http://i60.tinypic.com/25qeidw.jpg

So again, since he guided them to the dimension, and it wasn't actually time travel (apparently), then what exactly does "warping all timelines" mean? How big of a feat is this? How much stock do we put into it when we've actually seen how he accomplishes this?


I think you're misinterpreting the scan. And i honestly don't understand how it can confuse you at this point.

Whenever the "time barrier" is broken (and directed at Superboy's era), the Legion will end up in the pocket universe instead, not in the actual past era of the real universe. Because if they actually did travel back in time (which would bring them to the real, and not the pocket, universe), they wouldn't have found Superboy, because Superboy never existed to begin with (because of Bryne rebooting Superman's origins after COIE).

So basically, Time Trapper manipulated all timelines so that, whatever time period it may be, whether it is 30th, 40th, 50th, or even 10th (and specifically directed at Superboy's time era) they (mostly the legion, because they were the ones who mostly visited Superboy's time era) end up in Trapper's pocket dimension.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

Seems like schematics to me.

Mon-El killed his physical body but not his essence. However, even his essence was dying from the beatdown.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2hqgqj4.jpg

He was essentially just a dying ghost at that point. So yes, he was still alive but "dead". Though I'm curious if I would have put quotations around it in the first place that you would have responded the same.

So... what you're saying is that Time Trapper was weakened?


Because that story is the only "proof" that Time Trapper somehow warped the multiverse. No he didn't do anything in the story, but it's the same story that you're using solely to put him on a multi Eternity level. And weakened or not (super weakened, sorry) it seems funny that he was actually beaten to death ("death" by Mon-El.

Ok, he was near death, but not actually dead, doesn't change my point though.

Yes, he was "weakened", i merely clarified just how weakened he is. Near death, is how weakened he was. Important detail, imo.

Im not putting him on multi-eternity's level. I specifically said that id put him on this level going by his highest showing (which is warping the multiverse), but then i clarified that on average (which is the one which actually counts) he is above Galactus and below regular Eternity.

Ok, i get what you were saying, but Mon-el semi-killing a near-death Trapper, doesn't diminish his status, in any way. I mean, i could get into his low showings if you want, because those would diminish him if anything, but certainly not the mon-el instance.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
That'd be all well and good if we didn't actually see how he guided their path. He had to actually interfere to make them enter the pocket universe.

And can you actually attribute any of the bottom of what you said to Time Trapper? Or are you connecting dots where there's none?
IE, Supergirl's existence. On panel, being due to Time Trapper. Or is it just a continuity error? I mean, it was PC as well, and I'm assuming it was before Legion started trying to "explain" things. Why must it be due to Trapper?


No he didn't. He manipulated all time eras so that whenever a certain timelines is directed at Superboy's era it automatically sends he/she/it to his pocket.

Very much so. Because the Legion continuity was never rebooted after COIE. Here's Legion v3 referencing Adventure Comics #352 (literally two issues after the particular scan i posted):

http://i.imgur.com/q0dtRYL.jpg?1

I already showed you Superman v2 #8 scan directly referencing Adventure Comics #247, all those are in continuity and nothing has changed. They all have to fit somehow. And im telling you how they can fit: Time Trapper. Which also makes sense given that he's behind the whole mess. He's try it before Pre-Zero Hour. An issue of Post-ZH LOSH says that which ended in damaging reality:

http://i.imgur.com/mkMPrIY.jpg

But more importantly, when you ask if all this applies.....yes, it should apply by default. Since it was established that nobody knew of this pocket until the crisis, then every single being who traveled to Superboy's era, was manipulated by the Trapper by default. That would mean that the Legion were not specifically targeted, because they weren't the only ones. I already gave an example and i could give more.

So what im trying to say is, "warping all timelines" wasn't just what you'd translate to "diverting Legion's path into the pocket", it'd be manipulating every single being/event, from all kinds of timelines who were aiming at Superboy's era.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

When he actually "warped all timelines" he wasn't weakened though (unless I'm missing something). And his entire purpose behind "warping all timelines" was a plan to defeat Mordru.
Because he did it before he was inside Mon-El.

Trapper's entire history besides Prime Trapper was about getting back at Mordru. I don't think one statement overrides all of that.

Plus there's Glorith actually stalemating Mordru, so...

Probably, yeah. Because even if Mordru was far below him, that doesn't put him at multiversal levels.

Yes, he wasn't weakened, at least not that we're aware of.

That's not exactly true. That was only LOSH v4, and in the Pre-ZH period. Only. And it kind of changes. An issue of AoS outright says that the real crux crux of his scheme is to actually destroy the Legion:

http://i.imgur.com/uC9eE26.jpg?1

Also, in the Pre-Crisis era, Time Trapper never particularly cared about Mordru at all, i don't remember him even mentioning Mordru at any point in time.

Yeah, but it was outright stated that whoever wins, will mean the universe is finished, universe meaning the whole timestream, all timelines. Not that bad of a showing.

But again, im not trying to imply that Time Trapper is always portrayed as being a multiversal power. Just on that one occasion, he was. He has a multiversal feat, that doesn't mean it will take a multiversal power to beat him, i said he's below Eternity and above Galactus (normal) on average.

Originally posted by operator616
Which is still irrelevant. Because either way, that's not the "manipulating all timelines" in effect because that got weakened when the Crisis came. That's where this whole mess started to reveal itself. Firstly, in the Cosmic Boy mini-series, it was Cosmic Boy along with Nigh Girl traveled to the 20th century era and actually ended up in the real, not the pocket, universe. Because of the Crisis time distortions. Same thing happened in a couple of issues of Booster Gold (at that same time period) to the Legion members. That's why post-crisis, his manipulation of the timelines was weakened, and you can't use this post-crisis.

Yes, what about "each time"? Consider this: Time Trapper warped all timelines so that each time when the Legion travels through time, they end up in his pocket dimension. Not seeing what's the problem here.

Anyway, re-look at the Legion v4 scan, it pretty clearly implies that he warped timelines so that the Legion travel to his Earth without him actively guiding them each time. And neither is there proof that he was guiding them each and every time. I mean, do you honestly believe that when the retcon happened, the writer meant for the Trapper to manipulate the Legion every single time they travel, rather than arranging the timelines so that whenever they travel, they end up in the pocket?

We'll resolve what "warping all timelines" means, in the second post. It isn't irrelevant because it blatantly shows how they actually get to the pocket dimension. And I'm not saying it's him "manipulating all timelines", I'm saying that that what happened in volume 4 has actually been shown as to how it was accomplished, without the "warped all timelines" part. How they get to the pocket universe has been vividly shown, and it has nothing do with some sort of permanent effect. The only possible explanation is that he placed it in a place accessible to any time traveler, which while impressive, isn't exactly some multiversal feat.

And he guided them each time just like how he did in Volume 3. He outright states this.

If things didn't exist to go against volume 4 then I doubt I'd have stated anything. I can look at it all I want, but it's still not going to erase when his actual plans were talked about.
Um, the writer outright has Trapper state that he was guiding them, and considering Trapper apparently has nothing better to do than piss off a bunch of kids, then yes, it makes complete sense that he was guiding them everytime. It's not like he was doing it millions of times that would make the process redundant, he was doing it a handful of times so it's perfectly feasible that one person who was sitting there doing nothing would continue sitting there and doing nothing while people traveled through time so he could nudge them.
So yes, I think that's exactly what the writer intended, and then Keith Giffen forgot to mention that detail in his recap.
EDIT: I also don't believe the writer's intention was meant to mean that "all timelines" = every universe ever for that matter.

It is shown outright that Trapper needed to nudge them into the universe. Accompanied by him stating that he guided everyone each time... no actually:
"Ever since you dared attempt a journey through time, I have guided you - steering you through the possibilities to a little corner of reality I kept waiting..."
*Flashback panel pointing out the first time they traveled to meet the universe*

And is that not exactly what they did? Were they not steered to a little corner of reality a different time travel opportunity? Well let's look:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0007.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0008.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0009.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0010.jpg


Yes, that's exactly what happened. And that covers two different times he actively guided them. Confirmed.

But considering he says "Each time" that he sent them there - and we know how they got there - then that heavily implies if not outright states that he did it every single time.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg


But considering we have confirmation that Time Trapper was nudging them there after he supposedly "warped all timelines", then that again brings up the question of what exactly that could possibly mean. The only possible explanation I can think of is that he put it there in the first place, and that allowed him to nudge anyone to enter there.

So again, how impressive can this feat possibly be?

Even if he did indeed warp all timelines without nudging, all he did was make it so that time travel to one universe ended up making you go to another. I don't exactly understand how impressive this is even if you ignore the context of it.

Originally posted by operator616
I think you're misinterpreting the scan. And i honestly don't understand how it can confuse you at this point.

Whenever the "time barrier" is broken (and directed at Superboy's era), the Legion will end up in the pocket universe instead, not in the actual past era of the real universe. Because if they actually did travel back in time (which would bring them to the real, and not the pocket, universe), they wouldn't have found Superboy, because Superboy never existed to begin with (because of Bryne rebooting Superman's origins after COIE).

So basically, Time Trapper manipulated all timelines so that, whatever time period it may be, whether it is 30th, 40th, 50th, or even 10th (and specifically directed at Superboy's time era) they (mostly the legion, because they were the ones who mostly visited Superboy's time era) end up in Trapper's pocket dimension. Maybe, but I'm more fixated on him blatantly stating that they weren't traveling through time at all. If he had used the word "traveled", I would have never brought it up. But traveling indicates the process taken. IE, traveling through time and the way they did it hints at them not traveling through the timestream.

Which has a strong indication that time, or timelines actually had nothing to do with it. Which would make it a soft retcon if so.

It turns into dimensional hopping at that point if taken literally.

Maybe I'm off base here, but the wordplay of this seems askew in the whole "timeline aspect".


Originally posted by operator616
Ok, he was near death, but not actually dead, doesn't change my point though.

Yes, he was "weakened", i merely clarified just how weakened he is. Near death, is how weakened he was. Important detail, imo.

Im not putting him on multi-eternity's level. I specifically said that id put him on this level going by his highest showing (which is warping the multiverse), but then i clarified that on average (which is the one which actually counts) he is above Galactus and below regular Eternity.

Ok, i get what you were saying, but Mon-el semi-killing a near-death Trapper, doesn't diminish his status, in any way. I mean, i could get into his low showings if you want, because those would diminish him if anything, but certainly not the mon-el instance. Like I said, semantics. He wasn't actually dead, but he was just a spirit and was dying in that spirit form. That changes everything.

K he was weakened, but also weakened. Doesn't change my point.

So you're not putting him on multi Eternity's level, but going specifically by highest showings you're putting him on Multi Eternity's level... so in effect, you'd like to put him on Multi Eternity's level going specifically by the wording of him "warping all timelines"? Which is my ENTIRE ISSUE WITH THE FEAT
And he's above Galactus based on... let me guess, warping all timelines?

Good for you. It was merely a funny thing to mention to Mr Master. We can discuss more of why I brought it up in future posts however. Maybe the "point" will make sense to you then.

By all means bring up Trapper's low showings. I know it's killing you now that you mentioned it. I'm not sure how that hurts me however, but yeah. Do it.

Originally posted by operator616
No he didn't. He manipulated all time eras so that whenever a certain timelines is directed at Superboy's era it automatically sends he/she/it to his pocket.

Very much so. Because the Legion continuity was never rebooted after COIE. Here's Legion v3 referencing Adventure Comics #352 (literally two issues after the particular scan i posted):

http://i.imgur.com/q0dtRYL.jpg?1

I already showed you Superman v2 #8 scan directly referencing Adventure Comics #247, all those are in continuity and nothing has changed. They all have to fit somehow. And im telling you how they can fit: Time Trapper. Which also makes sense given that he's behind the whole mess. He's try it before Pre-Zero Hour. An issue of Post-ZH LOSH says that which ended in damaging reality:

http://i.imgur.com/mkMPrIY.jpg

But more importantly, when you ask if all this applies.....yes, it should apply by default. Since it was established that nobody knew of this pocket until the crisis, then every single being who traveled to Superboy's era, was manipulated by the Trapper by default. That would mean that the Legion were not specifically targeted, because they weren't the only ones. I already gave an example and i could give more.

So what im trying to say is, "warping all timelines" wasn't just what you'd translate to "diverting Legion's path into the pocket", it'd be manipulating every single being/event, from all kinds of timelines who were aiming at Superboy's era. Nope. He had to guide them, as has been explained in the comics.


So let me get this straight...

You're using a scan from Supergirl merely existing in a different panel and different city than Superboy way before any of this all the way back in 1966, which we naturally retroactively place her in the pocket universe. And your proof for this being completely static canon that is totally not a continuity error that Legion never covered, is that Legion referenced a comic 2 issues after the comic you brought up? But not the comic itself? And this naturally means that Time Trapper was manipulating entire timelines because the Legion comics referenced a comic 2 issues later? Even though Time Trapper was never attributed to have done anything with Supergirl?

Um... that sounds like complete and utter nonsense to me. Like holy shit are you reaching for the stars here. The funny part is that your explanation explains the state of the timeline in a series where you're trying to pass off facts.

If you didn't have your second last paragraph here, I would have simply laughed at your post and moved on.

However, while that makes sense. Your inability to have it reference the actual comic brings forth questions of Supergirl being canon in the first place.
And even if it was, it's as easily explained that Trapper also had a Supergirl in his Pocket Universe somehow, since he created the universe. Or do you somehow figure that very very loosely connecting dots and coming to the conclusion that he was manipulating whole timelines and that SOMEHOW explains Supergirl's existence there is a more likable valid approach than just assuming he "created" her?

Although the answer to your last part is easily explained that he would have simply done the same to Supergirl as he did to Legion. IE, nudged them to his reality. If that indeed wasn't retroactively a "new" character.

There are many explanations for it. It doesn't have to be Time Trapper manipulating a timeline to somehow place Supergirl in it, and this is easily explained that it's complete canon because PC Supergirl was erased and an issue 2 issues later was referenced.

And I haven't read the arc where your original panels came from, but did Supergirl and Superman actually meet in that book in the pocket universe? And if not, could it not be construed as retroactively being a different universe?

Basically, your post does nothing to convince since he could have simply nudged her there as well. Adding in characters doesn't widen the influence when he could have accomplished the same thing he did to Legion.

Or it was a continuity error that never got addressed and never will.

Originally posted by operator616
Yes, he wasn't weakened, at least not that we're aware of.

That's not exactly true. That was only LOSH v4, and in the Pre-ZH period. Only. And it kind of changes. An issue of AoS outright says that the real crux crux of his scheme is to actually destroy the Legion:

http://i.imgur.com/uC9eE26.jpg?1

Also, in the Pre-Crisis era, Time Trapper never particularly cared about Mordru at all, i don't remember him even mentioning Mordru at any point in time.

Yeah, but it was outright stated that whoever wins, will mean the universe is finished, universe meaning the whole timestream, all timelines. Not that bad of a showing.

But again, im not trying to imply that Time Trapper is always portrayed as being a multiversal power. Just on that one occasion, he was. He has a multiversal feat, that doesn't mean it will take a multiversal power to beat him, i said he's below Eternity and above Galactus (normal) on average. Exactly. So I can't fathom how him being weakened in the Mon-El example is relevant to him being scurred of Mordru.

OK. That changes literally nothing, except the fact that you found a scan you wanted to share. His main concern is to get rid of Mordru. He went through many hoops to try and accomplish this. Which goes against Mordru being a minor power compared to him. Do you not agree?
Yes his underlying goal and perhaps true motive is to get rid of Legion, but he wants to use them to help get rid of Mordru first. Like almost his entire history was about getting rid of Mordru. Mordru being called a minor deity undermines that history, and isn't the be all end all argument stopper.

Well considering his entire history has been retroactively tied to stopping Mordru, PC is irrelevant. Even his Time Master persona had been tied to it. Basically Mordru is very important in TT's history, and suddenly throwing Mordru under the bus is dumb.
And this is Mr M's whole issue with it. If Mordru was such a minor power, then why would TT go through such a ridiculous series of events to "stop" him?

I'm not saying it's a bad showing. I'm saying that Mordru is on TT's level, as indicated by TT's history and a stalemate.
Although, where was it stated that all timelines were going to get destroyed as a result? Or is this on those "Universe = Multiverse" things where random comics with no correlation are brought up? If that's the case, then don't bother. Unless it has a statement showing Mordru/TT were going to end all timelines, then don't bother please.

On average without him warping all timelines, would you place him above Galactus? And where would you rank him in relation to Odin if "warping all timelines" was never stated?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

1. And he guided them each time just like how he did in Volume 3. He outright states this.

2. I also don't believe the writer's intention was meant to mean that "all timelines" = every universe ever for that matter.

3. By all means bring up Trapper's low showings.

there isn't much need to elaborate beyond those few points--though in his own bran-ish way he has done so very clearly. regardless, as i said, i agree with him for these EXACT reasons.

well, and this...



but it's the first 2 points that immediately had me questioning the whole power level being discussed here. factoring in the....alternative viewpoint on the feat being discussed, and knowing some of his lesser showings, i think he's being placed too high on the cosmic scale in this case. pretty sure bran has hinted at some of those lesser showings, but has refrained from posting them as yet. still, they must be used to build an entire view of the character and are another reason i think he's being over-rated in this thread.

There's more I want to discuss about the Supergirl/Adventure Comics thing, but I'll wait for Op. I have a strong feeling he's going to touch on some things I want him to touch on.

But this whole Multiversal thing seems forced, not by the comics mind you. The guy's on Mordru's level, which isn't bad, but trying to turn that into some abstract thing seems wrong to me. Not to say he couldn't possibly be above Odin, but there's not too much putting him way beyond the realm of Odin outside vague statements. Maybe that's just my inexperience with the character, but I just can't see him being elevated that much.

Originally posted by abhilegend
His feats are beyond Odin's feats and he's an avatar of entropy. He can stalemate Infinite Man in raw power who derives his power from every point of time and space.

http://i.imgur.com/bphYjk5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/U327JIt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OEg7EVn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hI189qq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SyYjkST.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tNE2AMb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HTfHUxy.jpg

And he returned even from one place which totally contradicts his existence aka the birth of universe.

That's better than anything Odin has done against an abstract. He has also casually stopped the crisis wave from destroying the pocket universe which was an unprecedented feat. So he has better feats than Odin in just two dozen or such showings.

Not anything I've seen so far.

While I doubt that you aren't leaving out any context, I don't know why anything about that fight would be beyond Odin or his feats?

Returning from the beginning of time is better than anything Odin has done? What?

Why do you think saving his slice of space from a temporal rewrite is beyond Odin exactly? The All-Father himself has rewrote reality and turned back time.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Bran got owned.
http://www.pic4ever.com/images/171.gif

Originally posted by leonidas
there isn't much need to elaborate beyond those few points--though in his own bran-ish way he has done so very clearly.
This made me lol. "his own bran-ish way"

Anyways, I'm enjoying this thread. Wall of text be damned!!





Stuck at work anyway..

Originally posted by leonidas

there isn't much need to elaborate beyond those few points--though in his own bran-ish way he has done so very clearly. regardless, as i said, i agree with him for these EXACT reasons.

well, and this...

but it's the first 2 points that immediately had me questioning the whole power level being discussed here. factoring in the....alternative viewpoint on the feat being discussed, and knowing some of his lesser showings, i think he's being placed too high on the cosmic scale in this case. pretty sure bran has hinted at some of those lesser showings, but has refrained from posting them as yet. still, they must be used to build an entire view of the character and are another reason i think he's being over-rated in this thread.
... I luvs the sarcastic jokester, but when he's gunz blazin it's a beauty to watch.

Originally posted by Mr Master
http://www.pic4ever.com/images/171.gif Meh.

Though I can see why my post would be taken the way Op took it, but that wasn't my intention (hopefully I expanded enough on the difference between the two). Op will respond. I will respond. Its just the way we are. Round and round until one gets bored. The board loses, and no winner between Odin/Trapper is decided. Though it will give me some brain stimulation in the process.

Though I hope he responds soon, because I think I'm going to work today, and I'll be back in probably a week if so. For some reason every comic day, but at least it wasn't the morning this time.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
It isn't irrelevant because it blatantly shows how they actually get to the pocket dimension. And I'm not saying it's him "manipulating all timelines", I'm saying that that what happened in volume 4 has actually been shown as to how it was accomplished, without the "warped all timelines" part. How they get to the pocket universe has been vividly shown, and it has nothing do with some sort of permanent effect. The only possible explanation is that he placed it in a place accessible to any time traveler, which while impressive, isn't exactly some multiversal feat.

And he guided them each time just like how he did in Volume 3. He outright states this.
If things didn't exist to go against volume 4 then I doubt I'd have stated anything. I can look at it all I want, but it's still not going to erase when his actual plans were talked about.
Um, the writer outright has Trapper state that he was guiding them, and considering Trapper apparently has nothing better to do than piss off a bunch of kids, then yes, it makes complete sense that he was guiding them everytime. It's not like he was doing it millions of times that would make the process redundant, he was doing it a handful of times so it's perfectly feasible that one person who was sitting there doing nothing would continue sitting there and doing nothing while people traveled through time so he could nudge them.
So yes, I think that's exactly what the writer intended, and then Keith Giffen forgot to mention that detail in his recap.
EDIT: I also don't believe the writer's intention was meant to mean that "all timelines" = every universe ever for that matter.

It is shown outright that Trapper needed to nudge them into the universe. Accompanied by him stating that he guided everyone each time... no actually:
"Ever since you dared attempt a journey through time, I have guided you - steering you through the possibilities to a little corner of reality I kept waiting..."
*Flashback panel pointing out the first time they traveled to meet the universe*

And is that not exactly what they did? Were they not steered to a little corner of reality a different time travel opportunity? Well let's look:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0007.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0008.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0009.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_37__0010.jpg

Yes, that's exactly what happened. And that covers two different times he actively guided them. Confirmed.

But considering he says "Each time" that he sent them there - and we know how they got there - then that heavily implies if not outright states that he did it every single time.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/lsh_v3_38__0017.jpg

But considering we have confirmation that Time Trapper was nudging them there after he supposedly "warped all timelines", then that again brings up the question of what exactly that could possibly mean. The only possible explanation I can think of is that he put it there in the first place, and that allowed him to nudge anyone to enter there.

So again, how impressive can this feat possibly be?

Even if he did indeed warp all timelines without nudging, all he did was make it so that time travel to one universe ended up making you go to another. I don't exactly understand how impressive this is even if you ignore the context of it.


You didn't get my point. I already explained why it's irrelevant and you didn't counter it. You basically restated what you said. The reason why it had no "permanent effect" like it had all those prior times, is because the Crisis time distortions weakened it, understand? Before COIE there was never such a significant event which would affect the time stream in such a way as to weaken Trapper's manipulation of the timelines. I mean, how the hell do you think this was all revealed in the first place? Because that's how, Crisis time distortions. Cosmic Boy and Night Girl got to that era because of those distortions:

http://i.imgur.com/qoLSVTD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/B2FiNA7.jpg

Same thing happened in Booster Gold, but there was never confusion, since Superman didn't appear in that instance (unlike in Cosmic Boy, where Rokk confronts Superman, and is surprised when he doesn't recognize him). What you have to understand from all this, is that the crisis basically nullified Trapper's permanent hold on the timelines. Do you get why i think it's irrelevant, now?



Yes, and i fail to see how Trapper "guiding them" disproves of his manipulating the timelines permanently. From what i understood of it, it's saying that by manipulating the timelines permanently, the Trapper guides them (since, after all, he is behind this manipulation and no one other) into the pocket universe each and every time. Neither does Time Trapper saying that he guided them ever since (referring to the first time), because that also can be easily explained that every since the first time the Legion went to the past, his permanent manipulation of the timelines was already in effect. Nothing contradictory. Not even one bit.

At this point, you're not gonna change your mind, you'll keep saying that each time the Trapper guided the Legionnaires (and other time travelers seeking Superboy's era) personally, while i am going to say it had a permanent effect. Although just so you know, i say this because there isn't any proof that the Trapper each and every time guided them personally. I already explained what happened in LOSH v3. This is what makes sense to me.

Except for the fact that he did do it a million times? but perhaps not in the sense you're thinking of. Legion didn't exactly time travel to Superboy's era to get him to help them in the 30th century every time, but rather they used a device with which to call call him with (here's an example from Superboy #197):

http://i.imgur.com/2gnMSWg.jpg

And he'll break the time barrier to arrive to their era. Which begs the question: This Signaler which the Legion used was used a hundred times, and considering it was meant to be sent to a past era, according to the retcon it would mean it was diverted to the pocket dimension.....so that means Time Trapper intervened every time to divert this pathetic device? LOL, seems legit, right? That's why i asked if you actually believe the writer intended for the Time Trapper to intervene every single time to divert their path. I think we both know that it's not the case, but rather manipulating them permanently seems like it makes more sense.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

Maybe, but I'm more fixated on him blatantly stating that they weren't traveling through time at all. If he had used the word "traveled", I would have never brought it up. But traveling indicates the process taken. IE, traveling through time and the way they did it hints at them not traveling through the timestream.

Which has a strong indication that time, or timelines actually had nothing to do with it. Which would make it a soft retcon if so.

It turns into dimensional hopping at that point if taken literally.

Maybe I'm off base here, but the wordplay of this seems askew in the whole "timeline aspect".


Sorry, but if there's one thing im sure you're wrong in, it's this one. It doesn't seem confusing at all to me, it fits perfectly imo, with what we've been told.

the Legion did travel through the timestream but only partially. Whenever they enter the timestream and aim at Superboy's era, the timestream is warped in a way to guide them to the pocket reality.

And that's where the "warping" part comes in. It may not make sense that whenever when travels through time, it ends up in a pocket universe, but that's exactly what the warping process did: It warped all timelines in a way that it diverted to a pocket dimension.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

K he was weakened, but also weakened. Doesn't change my point.

So you're not putting him on multi Eternity's level, but going specifically by highest showings you're putting him on Multi Eternity's level... so in effect, you'd like to put him on Multi Eternity's level going specifically by the wording of him "warping all timelines"? Which is my ENTIRE ISSUE WITH THE FEAT
And he's above Galactus based on... let me guess, warping all timelines?

Good for you. It was merely a funny thing to mention to Mr Master. We can discuss more of why I brought it up in future posts however. Maybe the "point" will make sense to you then.

By all means bring up Trapper's low showings. I know it's killing you now that you mentioned it. I'm not sure how that hurts me however, but yeah. Do it.

You can be as sarcastic as you want. You know as well as i do that mentioning he was near death rather than weakened, is a relevant thing to add. In the meantime though, try to see how Mon-el did against a non-near death Time Trapper in v3:

http://i.imgur.com/40Gh4Zs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/V5ZT2DT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eZT7loy.jpg

Yes, continue with the sarcasm. I was merely explaining my full view on the character, perhaps my wording is not that very good (english is not my first language, after all), because i said that going by his highest showing id put him on multi-Eternity's level, but on average (which is the one which i assume people count on) i put him below regular/universal Eternity, yeah, and go ahead and use that to detect some flaw in my argument and make fun of it. Continue if it makes you feel any better, please. Because i can't possible fathom why you'd continue this when ive established what i think of him on average. God knows why, you specifically have to cling into what i think of him in his highest showing and not the average and use that against me. Sure, whatever you say.

Um, "it's killing me"? Lol, i already said before in this very thread that he has quite an amount of low showing, hence my rankings. And now you say that "it's killing me"...sure thing. The point i was trying to make is that there are many low showings to pick from, rather than trying to make it seem like Mon-el "killing" a near-death Trapper like a funny showing. That was my point. But since you asked, ill answer:

he's suffered defeats. In Zero Hour #1, He was defeated by Parallax (ZHP). At one point, in an issue of Superboy, he was struggling with Karate Kid ( a human albeit one with retarded super-human feats, even herald-level ones), Chameleon Boy, Sun Boy. His time-powers, from what i recall, were also defied by Superman in a bronze age Action Comics arc. And Post-Zero Hour Time Trapper's time powers were also defied by when Lori gained the H-dial in an issue of Legionnaires v1. Also got beaten by a couple of Legion members in LO3W.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Nope. He had to guide them, as has been explained in the comics.


So let me get this straight...

You're using a scan from Supergirl merely existing in a different panel and different city than Superboy way before any of this all the way back in 1966, which we naturally retroactively place her in the pocket universe. And your proof for this being completely static canon that is totally not a continuity error that Legion never covered, is that Legion referenced a comic 2 issues after the comic you brought up? But not the comic itself? And this naturally means that Time Trapper was manipulating entire timelines because the Legion comics referenced a comic 2 issues later? Even though Time Trapper was never attributed to have done anything with Supergirl?

Um... that sounds like complete and utter nonsense to me. Like holy shit are you reaching for the stars here. The funny part is that your explanation explains the state of the timeline in a series where you're trying to pass off facts.

If you didn't have your second last paragraph here, I would have simply laughed at your post and moved on.

However, while that makes sense. Your inability to have it reference the actual comic brings forth questions of Supergirl being canon in the first place.
And even if it was, it's as easily explained that Trapper also had a Supergirl in his Pocket Universe somehow, since he created the universe. Or do you somehow figure that very very loosely connecting dots and coming to the conclusion that he was manipulating whole timelines and that SOMEHOW explains Supergirl's existence there is a more likable valid approach than just assuming he "created" her?

Although the answer to your last part is easily explained that he would have simply done the same to Supergirl as he did to Legion. IE, nudged them to his reality. If that indeed wasn't retroactively a "new" character.

There are many explanations for it. It doesn't have to be Time Trapper manipulating a timeline to somehow place Supergirl in it, and this is easily explained that it's complete canon because PC Supergirl was erased and an issue 2 issues later was referenced.

And I haven't read the arc where your original panels came from, but did Supergirl and Superman actually meet in that book in the pocket universe? And if not, could it not be construed as retroactively being a different universe?

Basically, your post does nothing to convince since he could have simply nudged her there as well. Adding in characters doesn't widen the influence when he could have accomplished the same thing he did to Legion.

Or it was a continuity error that never got addressed and never will.


We'll see. Read my first reply, it should confirm that he didn't.

What? Lol, and you think im the one talking nonsense, here? Ok, first of all, you do realize that i never ever said that Supergirl (be sure to understand that we aren't talking about Matrix here) is part of Time Trapper's pocket, right? Well, that would be not only outright stupid to say but disproven on panel. Adventures of Superman #444, confirms that he was the only super-hero there, originally:

http://i.imgur.com/NzdeeWJ.jpg

I wasn't using the Adventure Comcis scan to say that she's part of Time Trapper, but rather that she was part of Legion's continuity and according to her retcon, it makes no sense to include her given that she literally would know Superboy's future because she experienced it firsthand in Superman's era. And considering Superboy was actually an alternate version of Superman and the actual Superman as an adult, it makes all of Supergirl/Superboy appearances contradictory as shit. Nevertheless, the Legion post-crisis continuity decided to acknowledge her. So what im saying is: When Time Trapper made his pocket, he could have altered the timelines so that Supergirl would come to think of Superboy as Superman, given that Supergirl is directly associated with Superboy, whom Time Trapper created. Get it?

I know i confused you with the Adventure Comics reference, and that's probably my fault, but i should clarify: The main reason why i posted that LOSH v3 scan referencing Adventure Comics #352 isn't to show a canonicity of Adventure Comics #350 (which i happened to post a scan of in my previous post), no, it was merely to confirm that all their later 1950s, and 60s adventures were canon and thus have to somehow fit in coninuity. It just happened that the reference to the adventure comic and the one i provided for Supergirl were close, hence why i tried to associate them, but forget that, i only added confusion. Point is for that scan, is that their early adventures are canon.

However, I love the part with my "inability" to reference the actual comic. That genuinely gave me a good laugh. Because i wasn't trying to do it in the first place. Lol. If i wanted to post a reference for Supergirl, i proabably would have post it this one from that same volume (v3):

http://i.imgur.com/YqClpE4.jpg

that's why i said the Legion continuity "acknowledged" her, but you didn't pay attention to it, or perhaps didn't believe me, i don't know. If you want anything posted, just ask.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

Exactly. So I can't fathom how him being weakened in the Mon-El example is relevant to him being scurred of Mordru.

OK. That changes literally nothing, except the fact that you found a scan you wanted to share. His main concern is to get rid of Mordru. He went through many hoops to try and accomplish this. Which goes against Mordru being a minor power compared to him. Do you not agree?
Yes his underlying goal and perhaps true motive is to get rid of Legion, but he wants to use them to help get rid of Mordru first. Like almost his entire history was about getting rid of Mordru. Mordru being called a minor deity undermines that history, and isn't the be all end all argument stopper.

Well considering his entire history has been retroactively tied to stopping Mordru, PC is irrelevant. Even his Time Master persona had been tied to it. Basically Mordru is very important in TT's history, and suddenly throwing Mordru under the bus is dumb.
And this is Mr M's whole issue with it. If Mordru was such a minor power, then why would TT go through such a ridiculous series of events to "stop" him?

I'm not saying it's a bad showing. I'm saying that Mordru is on TT's level, as indicated by TT's history and a stalemate.
Although, where was it stated that all timelines were going to get destroyed as a result? Or is this on those "Universe = Multiverse" things where random comics with no correlation are brought up? If that's the case, then don't bother. Unless it has a statement showing Mordru/TT were going to end all timelines, then don't bother please.

On average without him warping all timelines, would you place him above Galactus? And where would you rank him in relation to Odin if "warping all timelines" was never stated?

It's relevant because it was in Legion v4. And guess what? In Legion v4 he was weakened.

Yeah, sure thing. "just a scan i wanna share". Which utterly contradicts your point. Anyway, i already told you that the Mordru was centered in LOSH v4. While the scan i posted is from Adventures of Superman #444, which was at the same time period as LOSH v3 #50 (and until this point, he hadn't to do anything with Mordru), where Time Trapper got defeated by Infinite Man, weakened to a point he hid inside Mon-el, and then there was a 5 year gap between the end of LOSH v3 and LOSH v4, where the Trapper reappeared and Mordru was revealed to rule the universe. Get it? So that was only in LOSH v4 where the Trapper was weakened.
Of course he wanted to get rid of the Legion, that was his main concern in the Pre-Crisis days, without having anything to do with Mordru at all. It wasn't until later, it was followed up a few years after the crisis, until in v4 the whole Mordru mess came. Get it?

However, let's try a different approach, to Mordru/Time Trapper comparison (well, apart from calling Mordru a minor power): Did you read the End of An Era arc (which was part of Zero Hour)? Remember how Infinite Man's power quite literally dwarfed Mordru's? Same Infinite Man who got stalemated by the Time Trapper? Any particular thoughts you wanna share on this?

"The Time Master" persona is completely irrelevant. Because firstly the canonicity of Super friends #17 is questionable to say the least, but most importantly he was considered a controller in that story. And Legionnaires Three retconned all of Time Trapper's appearances as the controller as being an imposer rather than the real time trapper himself. Same thing happened in the famous "Great Darkness Saga".

You're not even following you're own points. the Legion annual, which you indirectly referred to, was a confrontation between Glorith and Mordru. Not TT and Mordru. I mean, you're the one who made this point to begin with. Pay attention.

Without warping the timelines, id put him as an equal. Since he casually created pocket universes; able to summon infinite versions of the LOSH, even with PC Superboy; being the embodiment of entropy, being beyond the whole freaking multiverse. Those are pretty cool feats, but eh, i guess the low showings balance those out, which is why i could see Galactus winning against him as 50% of the time (that's of course, if we're to ignore the timelines warping, which i personally don't).

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

that wasn't my intention (hopefully I expanded enough on the difference between the two).
I understand it now more clearly. Before the "feat" didn't make sense which is why I questioned the context of TT's statement.
After your posts though it all fell in the right place.

Originally posted by leonidas
there isn't much need to elaborate beyond those few points--though in his own bran-ish way he has done so very clearly. regardless, as i said, i agree with him for these EXACT reasons.

well, and this...



but it's the first 2 points that immediately had me questioning the whole power level being discussed here. factoring in the....alternative viewpoint on the feat being discussed, and knowing some of his lesser showings, i think he's being placed too high on the cosmic scale in this case. pretty sure bran has hinted at some of those lesser showings, but has refrained from posting them as yet. still, they must be used to build an entire view of the character and are another reason i think he's being over-rated in this thread.

Im surprised (and a bit disappointed, tbh, and im not kidding) the confusion regarding the v3 scene. There shouldn't be any confusion about it. It's pretty simple, really. The Crisis nullified/weakened Time Trapper's manipulation of the timelines. Which is what led to pocket's discovery. That's why he specifically guided them in that instance. I emphasized on this point. I mean, this is the whole point of the arc after all. But whatever.

The supergirl part was completely misinterpreted too.

http://i.imgur.com/lHQo5.gif

My next reply would include more examples of how TT could have manipulated the timelines. Just a heads up (supergirl is just one example, as i mentioned). In the meantime though, im going to sleep. Because of KMC debating, i have only 5 1/2 hours left to sleep.

I'll be back in a couple of days. I tried to fit a reply in, but yeah, no time.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Not anything I've seen so far.

While I doubt that you aren't leaving out any context, I don't know why anything about that fight would be beyond Odin or his feats?

Returning from the beginning of time is better than anything Odin has done? What?

Why do you think saving his slice of space from a temporal rewrite is beyond Odin exactly? The All-Father himself has rewrote reality and turned back time.
You could see everything and you'll be still saying Odin wins. You're rage.

When was the last time Odin stalemated a being powered by the whole of time and space?

Where Trapper's whole existence is contradicted? Yes.

Because nobody else was able to stop the antimatter wave from crisis. And it was a whole universe.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You could see everything and you'll be still saying Odin wins. You're rage.

When was the last time Odin stalemated a being powered by the whole of time and space?

Where Trapper's whole existence is contradicted? Yes.

Because nobody else was able to stop the antimatter wave from crisis. And it was a whole universe.

We all have your preconceived ideas and bias, but let's not pretend you aren't by the far the most guilty of this sin.

Are you saying Infinite Man has the power of the Multiverse? I must have missed that description of his power. Not that Multiversal level power is beyond Odin (At his best).

So, Time Trapper has a better feat because he has a huge and glaring weakness?

Odin unfortunately does not have a polar opposite that can end him so efficiently. Although Odin's doppleganger in the Dark Gods easily held off entropic collapse of his Universe so there's that.

This is where words are important. You are saying he STOPPED it. Is that what happened or did he hide/protect this Universe from the wave? There is a large difference. The former would not be something I'm sure Odin could do. The latter? Why not.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
We all have your preconceived ideas and bias, but let's not pretend you aren't by the far the most guilty of this sin. This again?



You're rage. Nobody is as biased as you.

When had Odin power like this?

http://i.imgur.com/NR5irJz.jpg

Odin isn't multiversal. Not gonna bother with that.

Are you trying to say that Odin could manipulate time to send Trapper back at beginning of time? ****ing time trapper?

What doppelganger? I hope you're not talking about Infinity.

He stopped it via a device which channeled his power.


And Odin would be ****ed in the ass by Antimatter wave from crisis.

Originally posted by leonidas
his own bran-ish way


Bran vs Opr is the next Master vs GS.

Odin wins. It's amazing to me that only TT's highest-of-high feats have been mentioned in this thread, and not his slew of lower-end showings.

Averages, people. Averages.

Originally posted by Galan007
Odin wins. It's amazing to me that only TT's highest-of-high feats have been mentioned in this thread, and not his slew of lower-end showings.

Averages, people. Averages.

But Op "did" mention his low end showings.

Trapper's lower end showings are still better than Odin's low showings though. Abducted by random aliens or ants is far more embarrassing than anything Trapper has.


But we have to take Trapper's average and Odin's highest showings, right?

Originally posted by abhilegend

He stopped it via a device which channeled his power.

And Odin would be ****ed in the ass by Antimatter wave from crisis.
Scans of TT stopping the Anti-Monitor's anti-matter wave that re-booted DC?

... opr posted some letters page stating it skipped TT cause he exists outside of normal continuity.

But you must have the scans where he "stops" it instead. Post them please.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Scans of TT stopping the Anti-Monitor's anti-matter wave that re-booted DC?

... opr posted some letters page stating it skipped TT cause he exists outside of normal continuity.

But you must have the scans where he "stops" it instead. Post them please.

AM's "anti matter" waves didn't exactly reboot DC. It was by going to the beginning of time (supposedly the only way to change the past, even though there are pre-crisis stories where the past was changed without going back to the very beginning of time), that Anti Monitor erased the multiverse, by preventing Krona's experiment. The 5 Earths/universes which were hidden away by the Monitor (not Anti-Monitor) and Harbinger merged together to form the one single universe with which we know DC Pre-Flashpoint. Some Pre-Crisis stories/events/beings remained the same, others changed (which posed a huge continuity problem).

Those anti matter waves were destroying universes, though. So they're impressive.

It was mentioned several times that the Trapper's device prevented the Anti matter wave from destroying Superboy's world, it was the reason Superboy brought him the Legion (since Trapper offered him to save his world):

http://i.imgur.com/lwlCvSY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GXh6VCH.jpg

It stopped the Anti Matter wave from destroying his universe.

Originally posted by operator616
AM's "anti matter" waves didn't exactly reboot DC. It was by going to the beginning of time (supposedly the only way to change the past, even though there are pre-crisis stories where the past was changed without going back to the very beginning of time), that Anti Monitor erased the multiverse, by preventing Krona's experiment. The 5 Earths/universes which were hidden away by the Monitor (not Anti-Monitor) and Harbinger merged together to form the one single universe with which we know DC Pre-Flashpoint. Some Pre-Crisis stories/events/beings remained the same, others changed (which posed a huge continuity problem).

Those anti matter waves were destroying universes, though. So they're impressive.

It was mentioned several times that the Trapper's device prevented the Anti matter wave from destroying Superboy's world, it was the reason Superboy brought him the Legion (since Trapper offered him to save his world):

http://i.imgur.com/lwlCvSY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GXh6VCH.jpg

It stopped the Anti Matter wave from destroying his universe.
Nice tech. The way abi initially worded it I envisioned something else.

Is there proof that those are the same anti-matter waves which are in the process of erasing universes in the crisis?

(in other words, these Two events are happening at the same time?
That Superboy scene takes place while the Anit-Monitor is erasing universes back in the day?)

I don't know much about DC as you probably know, so I'm feeding off of what I'm reading here & there.

Originally posted by cdtm
But Op "did" mention his low end showings. I'm not singling operator out by any means--in fact, he's really the only person who has even made mention to the fact that TT has several low-showings. Everyone else on 'team-Trapper', however, are acting like he has consistently been portrayed as this uber-powerful beast of a character, with no crap showings under his belt. That certainly hasn't always been the case.

Not saying Odin isn't without his share of low-end showings as well... I'm just trying to be a bit more objective, is all.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nice tech. The way abi initially worded it I envisioned something else.

Is there proof that those are the same anti-matter waves which are in the process of erasing universes in the crisis?

(in other words, these Two events are happening at the same time?
That Superboy scene takes place while the Anit-Monitor is erasing universes back in the day?)

I don't know much about DC as you probably know, so I'm feeding off of what I'm reading here & there.

those scans are from LOSH v3 #38, which is about a year after the Crisis finished, but what i posted is a flashback, Superboy said that this all happened directly after he visited them last time when Mon-el's cure was developed:

http://i.imgur.com/7rht389.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aoVeiur.jpg

Which actually was in LOSH v3 #23 (which was a time period, when the crisis was happening):

http://i.imgur.com/Uae6BAI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IvKeGFG.jpg

So we know, that this happened at the time of the crisis (when TT offered Superboy help).

It's the same anti matter waves, of course. Because firstly, it couldn't have been anything other than that. And you'll recognize how the sky becomes red. That's exactly what happens each time a universe is threatened. Here's a scan from COIE #3 referring and depicting the red sky:

http://i.imgur.com/jn79bT5.jpg?1

compare that to the Legion scan:

http://i.imgur.com/lwlCvSY.jpg

And the "anti matter" part confirms it.

Also, may i ask why don't you read DC? Because i think it's as much as interesting as Marvel is, imo.

^ Nice work. You proved your point.
Originally posted by operator616

Also, may i ask why don't you read DC? Because i think it's as much as interesting as Marvel is, imo.
Funny thing is that my favorite reads of all time are Watchmen and Kingdom Come.
Gaiman's Endless was awesome too but I read that more recently. (a few years ago)

I'm rooted in Marvel cause I grew up on Marvel and never gave DC as a whole a real chance.
I always liked the cosmic stuff though, and diving into Marvel's was/is endless play,
and I didn't have enough time when I debated hardcore and nowadays I'm really short of time.

Anyway, I usually just get my answers to any curiosities from members here, like yurself.

Operator is a good debater. Like reading his posts.

We need a thread of the week award or something, for posts like this one.

Mr. Master, if high end cosmically oriented stories is your thing, you'll probably want to check out Ostranders Spectre run, Casey's Lucifer, Moore's Swamp.Thing, and Superman Crisis in 3d at some point.

And I know Supergirl deals with The Presence.but I never got into that series.

Or if by "cosmic" you just mean anything in space, then Green Lantern and Adam Strange is the way to go. I'd recommend Planet Heist, and anything with Synarr in it...