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Who wins?

Superman and Thor stomp. Supes blitzes Black Bolt before he can utter a word and takes him down. Then it is not Superman and Thor vs Etrigan. Superman has defeated Etrigan in the past without any help, so they stomp him.

Team 1 wins the majority. Both Black Bolt and Etrigan can give either of them a hell of a fight and can pull some wins but Superman and Thor fighting together...scary thought.

Originally posted by carver9
Team 1 wins the majority. Both Black Bolt and Etrigan can give either of them a hell of a fight and can pull some wins but Superman and Thor fighting together...scary thought.

I'm not sure how they can give them a hell of a fight, nor can I figure out how they'd only take a majority instead of taking this fight 10/10.

Blackbolt can't touch Superman, he can't speak before Superman takes him out. Same with Etrigan, he won't even have time to muster a defense before he goes down.

Superman just has too much speed, and hell even Thor is at the very least a bullet timer himself, which means Supes blitzes Blackbolt while Thor takes on Etrigan, but in reality Supes is quick enough to end this fight before anyone(including Thor) has time to react.

Speed kills unfortunately and if you took the speed advantage away this fight still wouldn't be a hell of a fight because then Blackbolt speaks and everyone dies. So, with the characters not acting like morons it is a stomp for team 1. If they decide to act like morons, then the fight is over as soon as Blackbolt speaks.

Thor has beaten Black Bolt, and Superman has beaten Etrigan, so team 1 would obviously be the safe bet.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm not sure how they can give them a hell of a fight, nor can I figure out how they'd only take a majority instead of taking this fight 10/10.

Blackbolt can't touch Superman, he can't speak before Superman takes him out. Same with Etrigan, he won't even have time to muster a defense before he goes down.

Superman just has too much speed, and hell even Thor is at the very least a bullet timer himself, which means Supes blitzes Blackbolt while Thor takes on Etrigan, but in reality Supes is quick enough to end this fight before anyone(including Thor) has time to react.

Speed kills unfortunately and if you took the speed advantage away this fight still wouldn't be a hell of a fight because then Blackbolt speaks and everyone dies. So, with the characters not acting like morons it is a stomp for team 1. If they decide to act like morons, then the fight is over as soon as Blackbolt speaks.

What are you talking about? We don't debate off powerset...Their personality is still there. That's like me saying Black Bolt starts the battle off with a full scream...that would more than likely drop everyone on the battlefield.

With that said, since Black Bolt won't go scream crazy and Superman will not blitz around like he is a DBZ character and Thor will not be calling a storm of a thousand/billion winds...This will more than likely end up being a good fight wince Etrigan has already given Superman a tun for his money and B B has given Thor a fight. Team 1 still wins the majority.

Superman will get hit. It just wont be enough.

Originally posted by carver9
What are you talking about? We don't debate off powerset...Their personality is still there. That's like me saying Black Bolt starts the battle off with a full scream...that would more than likely drop everyone on the battlefield.

With that said, since Black Bolt won't go scream crazy and Superman will not blitz around like he is a DBZ character and Thor will not be calling a storm of a thousand/billion winds...This will more than likely end up being a good fight wince Etrigan has already given Superman a tun for his money and B B has given Thor a fight. Team 1 still wins the majority. While I get the point, BB wouldn't get to scream before Kal shoved his fist down his throat.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
While I get the point, BB wouldn't get to scream before Kal shoved his fist down his throat.

It depends on how fast you think Black Bolt is. I think he is fast enough to react to a blitz.

Does he have to inhale before he screams?

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm not sure how they can give them a hell of a fight, nor can I figure out how they'd only take a majority instead of taking this fight 10/10.

Blackbolt can't touch Superman, he can't speak before Superman takes him out. Same with Etrigan, he won't even have time to muster a defense before he goes down.

Superman just has too much speed, and hell even Thor is at the very least a bullet timer himself, which means Supes blitzes Blackbolt while Thor takes on Etrigan, but in reality Supes is quick enough to end this fight before anyone(including Thor) has time to react.

Speed kills unfortunately and if you took the speed advantage away this fight still wouldn't be a hell of a fight because then Blackbolt speaks and everyone dies. So, with the characters not acting like morons it is a stomp for team 1. If they decide to act like morons, then the fight is over as soon as Blackbolt speaks.

Originally posted by carver9
What are you talking about? We don't debate off powerset...Their personality is still there. That's like me saying Black Bolt starts the battle off with a full scream...that would more than likely drop everyone on the battlefield.

Okay, well, that benefits Superman. Not using his speed isn't actually a part of Supermans personality. While Blackbolt holding back when he does his scream is.



Sorry, but this makes zero sense even if you try to toss personality in. We've seen Superman using his speed, even if not in every encounter. So we know he is aware of the concept of "Gee my speed sure can help in a fight, and end them quickly before too many people get hurt".

If you're going off Nu Supes, he hasn't been around that long, but he's had enough feats to give him a huge edge here. Heck this version even used his speed against Flash. It didn't help, of course, but he was at least able to react to him(or something of that nature). So how you can say it is a part of his personality baffles me. It's not CIS, it's PIS.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman will get hit. It just wont be enough.

If it's Blackbolt who hits him it will be enough. He doesn't have to scream really. He has taken out people like Hulk with a whisper. He also took out Gladiator without anywhere near his full scream.

Opening blow is likely to be Supes bum rushing Blackbolt, Blackbolt letting out a suprised grunt and sending Supes flying

Also just to comment on the "we don't argue powersets" and stuff, here is a quote from a moderator from a recent Superman vs Loki thread:

I haven't been on much the past several weeks due to my business. But I know Pr has had enough of everything that's been happening. The lowballing, trolling, ignoring mods, limiting characters, etc. stops now.


Superman, Flash, Shazam, Wonder Woman, etc. will all use their speed, period. If you have a problem then go to a pro-Marvel board, or contact Marvel and tell them to give characters speed feats."

Originally posted by Surtur
If it's Blackbolt who hits him it will be enough. He doesn't have to scream really. He has taken out people like Hulk with a whisper. He also took out Gladiator without anywhere near his full scream.

I was speaking more about attacks in general, than the scream.

Originally posted by Surtur
Also just to comment on the "we don't argue powersets" and stuff, here is a quote from a moderator from a recent Superman vs Loki thread:

I haven't been on much the past several weeks due to my business. But I know Pr has had enough of everything that's been happening. The lowballing, trolling, ignoring mods, limiting characters, etc. stops now.


Superman, Flash, Shazam, Wonder Woman, etc. will all use their speed, period. If you have a problem then go to a pro-Marvel board, or contact Marvel and tell them to give characters speed feats."

That is true, but we don't forget a character's personality to go with it.

For example, Superman will still take a punch in his usual "I can tank anything until I find out I can't" mindset. He just won't forget he has speed and allow himself to get pummelled past any reasonable length.

I like how Black Bolt is being portrayed as he's made of wet paper here.

Originally posted by -Pr- That is true, but we don't forget a character's personality to go with it.

For example, Superman will still take a punch in his usual "I can tank anything until I find out I can't" mindset. He just won't forget he has speed and allow himself to get pummelled past any reasonable length.

That quote contradicts this. It says they will use their speed, period. It doesn't say they will let people hit them. Superman has no reason to let a person wail on him here. So nobody can fall back on the "Superman won't blitz right away" argument.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I like how Black Bolt is being portrayed as he's made of wet paper here.

He's not made of wet paper, he's just not made of anything durable enough to withstand a speedblitz from a guy strong enough to bench press the planet for 5 days, without getting any exposure to sunlight during that time. That's not a knock on BB's durability. He is durable, and strong, and he also has powers other then his scream..like energy manipulation he has used to fire blasts of anti matter, etc.

Originally posted by Surtur
That quote contradicts this. It says they will use their speed, period. It doesn't say they will let people hit them. Superman has no reason to let a person wail on him here. So nobody can fall back on the "Superman won't blitz right away" argument.



He's not made of wet paper, he's just not made of anything durable enough to withstand a speedblitz from a guy strong enough to bench press the planet for 5 days, without getting any exposure to sunlight during that time. That's not a knock on BB's durability. He is durable, and strong, and he also has powers other then his scream..like energy manipulation he has used to fire blasts of anti matter, etc.

It's not a contradiction, but an extension.

Superman will use his speed, but only when it is in character to do so. It's about eliminating the negatives, rather than going overboard on the positives.

Originally posted by Surtur
He's not made of wet paper, he's just not made of anything durable enough to withstand a speedblitz from a guy strong enough to bench press the planet for 5 days, without getting any exposure to sunlight during that time. That's not a knock on BB's durability. He is durable, and strong, and he also has powers other then his scream..like energy manipulation he has used to fire blasts of anti matter, etc. Black Bolt survived point blank an explosion that ripped a parsecs wide hole in space and opened up the universe to the Cancerverse War...

You want to put Superman benching the planet into his blitz and strength, have fun with what Black Bolt took.

Team 1 wins. But its not a stomp in any way.Originally posted by Surtur
Okay, well, that benefits Superman. Not using his speed isn't actually a part of Supermans personality. While Blackbolt holding back when he does his scream is.



Sorry, but this makes zero sense even if you try to toss personality in. We've seen Superman using his speed, even if not in every encounter. So we know he is aware of the concept of "Gee my speed sure can help in a fight, and end them quickly before too many people get hurt".

If you're going off Nu Supes, he hasn't been around that long, but he's had enough feats to give him a huge edge here. Heck this version even used his speed against Flash. It didn't help, of course, but he was at least able to react to him(or something of that nature). So how you can say it is a part of his personality baffles me. It's not CIS, it's PIS.



If it's Blackbolt who hits him it will be enough. He doesn't have to scream really. He has taken out people like Hulk with a whisper. He also took out Gladiator without anywhere near his full scream.
Its good then Superman isn't savage hulk or Gladiator, he's easily more durable than either.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Black Bolt survived point blank an explosion that ripped a parsecs wide hole in space and opened up the universe to the Cancerverse War...

You want to put Superman benching the planet into his blitz and strength, have fun with what Black Bolt took.

Yeah, but Blackbolt can't take thousands of hits from Superman, all in the blink of an eye. Hell, the guy sure was feeling Gladiators punches..and Nu Supes is definitely as strong as Gladiator.

Originally posted by Surtur
Yeah, but Blackbolt can't take thousands of hits from Superman, all in the blink of an eye. Hell, the guy sure was feeling Gladiators punches..and Nu Supes is definitely as strong as Gladiator. Can you tell me the source of information where you got Nu Superman throwing 1000 punches in the blink of an eye?

And Gladiator is definitely as fast as Superman. Not sure how using him as proof is hurting Black Bolt's case when he was having an actual fight with him without using his voice. And not getting knocked out in the blink of an eye.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Can you tell me the source of information where you got Nu Superman throwing 1000 punches in the blink of an eye?

Because his speed is lightspeed or very near it? You know how many punches one could throw with that type of speed?



You aren't getting me. Blackbolt wasn't just shrugging off or being totally unphased by Gladiators blows. Nu Supes is just as strong as Gladiator. So it's not like NuSupes can't hurt him.

Black Bolt has been KTFO by much less than Gladiator's strength. Hell, fighting Namor nearly took him to the brink of collapse.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/FantasticFour402a.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/FantasticFour402b.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/FantasticFour402c.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/FantasticFour402d.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/clokeagne_supernova/Namor%20Respect/Guest%20apps/Battles/FantasticFour402e.jpg

He isn't fighting Superman h2h and remain conscious for long.

blackbolt wasn't even giving it his all lmao

nice try, though.

this fight is more competitive for superman than abhil is willing to admit so "low" feats are in order. again

Originally posted by Surtur
Because his speed is lightspeed or very near it? You know how many punches one could throw with that type of speed?



You aren't getting me. Blackbolt wasn't just shrugging off or being totally unphased by Gladiators blows. Nu Supes is just as strong as Gladiator. So it's not like NuSupes can't hurt him. So, you have scans of Nu Superman throwing 1000 punches in the blink of an eye or should I go around saying Silver Surfer throws 1000 punches in the blink of an eye?
Although, you've already answered me that you're not using proof to form your opinions.

Good, and Gladiator is just as fast as Nu Superman, and he didn't scrape Black Bolt off his floor in the blink of an eye. In fact, Black Bolt was winning...
Pretending Superman can instantly defeat characters who have never been blitzed in eye blinks is screwy. And it's not like BB is without his wiles.

And I never said Superman can't hurt him either. I said he's not beating Black Bolt in an eye blink or before Black Bolt could do anything.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
blackbolt wasn't even giving it his all lmao

nice try, though.

this fight is more competitive for superman than abhil is willing to admit so "low" feats are in order. again
What? He was about to deliver his master blow and Black Bolt fighting Namor to a draw is no low showing. In fact he has several slugfests with Thing resulting in a draw. Its where he is on average in strength.

But everything is low showing for you.

Originally posted by -Pr-
It's not a contradiction, but an extension.

Superman will use his speed, but only when it is in character to do so. It's about eliminating the negatives, rather than going overboard on the positives.

Guess we are just ignoring this, huh?

Originally posted by abhilegend
What? He was about to deliver his master blow and Black Bolt fighting Namor to a draw is no low showing. In fact he has several slugfests with Thing resulting in a draw. Its where he is on average in strength.

But everything is low showing for you. you try hard but at the same time not enough. it's very hard to understand

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you try hard but at the same time not enough. it's very hard to understand
Haha, you are so transparent. But keep trying chump.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What? He was about to deliver his master blow and Black Bolt fighting Namor to a draw is no low showing. In fact he has several slugfests with Thing resulting in a draw. Its where he is on average in strength.

But everything is low showing for you.
Pretty sure his average is higher than that.

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/blackbolt/Black-bolt-Sphinx-1.jpg

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Pretty sure his average is higher than that.

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/blackbolt/Black-bolt-Sphinx-1.jpg
Beating Sphinx without ka stones means what exactly? In terms of strength, BB is below top elites like Thor.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Beating Sphinx without ka stones means what exactly?

How did you come to the conclusion that he doesn't possess the Ka stone in that instance? It's right there on his forehead where it's always been. Sphinx literally mentions that he's possessing the power of Ka stone one page prior to that scan:

http://i.imgur.com/EgKk25P.jpg

Although it should be noted that in that time period the Ka Stone wasn't that uber-powerful, it (and subsequently, Sphinx) had no significant feats such as the ones that came later in New Warriors v1 where it warped reality. And Sphinx never even wanted the Ka stone since he didn't want to be immortal.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So, you have scans of Nu Superman throwing 1000 punches in the blink of an eye or should I go around saying Silver Surfer throws 1000 punches in the blink of an eye?
Although, you've already answered me that you're not using proof to form your opinions.

Umm, no, why is this so hard to get? The dude has shown he has lightspeed reflexes, he can move and react at those speeds. He doesn't need a specific feat of throwing 1,000 punches. We can extrapolate from other feats, it's a neat thing we can do. Superman has never picked up a car and thrown it into space, but guess what? He totally can, and why? Going by his other feats, he should be capable of it. Why? He can hold the weight of a planet, and cars weigh less then planets. See what I did there? No on panel feat and yet..we can use other feats to come to that conclusion. Crazy, right?



Sorry, but no, Black Bolt was feeling the hits. He won't be surviving a blitz, sorry if you can't accept that.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
blackbolt wasn't even giving it his all lmao

nice try, though.

this fight is more competitive for superman than abhil is willing to admit so "low" feats are in order. again

Blackbolt not trying doesn't magically lower his durability, why in gods name would you ever think it would?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Guess we are just ignoring this, huh?

Nope, but it's not a part of Supes personality to not use speed, I'm unsure why grasping this concept is so difficult for people. In character, he has no issues against speed. PIS is where the issues come in. To say he won't speedblitz is basically just an attempt to handicap the character..to which then what is the point? What is the point if you have to specifically go out of your way to handicap the guy? To the point where you ignore that his personality has nothing to do with not using speed. He is anti-killing, not anti- super speed.

Originally posted by Surtur
Blackbolt not trying doesn't magically lower his durability, why in gods name would you ever think it would?



Nope, but it's not a part of Supes personality to not use speed, I'm unsure why grasping this concept is so difficult for people. In character, he has no issues against speed. PIS is where the issues come in. To say he won't speedblitz is basically just an attempt to handicap the character..to which then what is the point? What is the point if you have to specifically go out of your way to handicap the guy? To the point where you ignore that his personality has nothing to do with not using speed. He is anti-killing, not anti- super speed.

How fast will he be fighting and provide a scan showing him doing this?

Originally posted by Surtur
Blackbolt not trying doesn't magically lower his durability, why in gods name would you ever think it would?



Nope, but it's not a part of Supes personality to not use speed, I'm unsure why grasping this concept is so difficult for people. In character, he has no issues against speed. PIS is where the issues come in. To say he won't speedblitz is basically just an attempt to handicap the character..to which then what is the point? What is the point if you have to specifically go out of your way to handicap the guy? To the point where you ignore that his personality has nothing to do with not using speed. He is anti-killing, not anti- super speed.

True he's not anti speed....but he DOES probe his enemy until he's sure he doesn't need to pull his punches. I'm sure you know Supes well, and you've seen countless times where he goes wow...I felt that....guess I don't need to hold back etc etc.

Supes/Thor

Originally posted by carver9
How fast will he be fighting and provide a scan showing him doing this?

There is no scan that says "he is fighting at lightspeed". It doesn't mean he can't, since he can move at such speeds, we extrapolate what he can do based on other feats.

If you have a problem with that, DCnU Superman is now incapable of throwing a car into space. After all, I have no scans of him doing it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True he's not anti speed....but he DOES probe his enemy until he's sure he doesn't need to pull his punches. I'm sure you know Supes well, and you've seen countless times where he goes wow...I felt that....guess I don't need to hold back etc etc.

Yeah, but basic knowledge means he won't not use his speed..and he isn't always not using speed because he isn't sure if he needs to pull his punches. He's used it enough times to say he'd use it if going to full capacity. Saying he won't is essentially handicapping him merely to give the other team a shot. What then is the point? Okay, so Blackbolt can totally beat a Superman fighting like a moron.

Or hell, let's be generous and say the guy only throws 100 punches before Blackbolt reacts. The guy still isn't durable enough to tank 100 punches from a guy who bench press the planet.

But anyways, what is the point in putting Superman in any fights here if people are going to constantly try to lowball or handicap him? It's weird to me that Superman fights have him being lowballed, while his opponents are being grossly overestimated(Black bolt here, Loki in the other thread..and I'm sure I could find more if I bothered to look).

Is this a thing people have against Superman or is it just characters with high end super speed in general?

can some post the scans of supes beating etrigan?

oh god not another one of these guys ^

Originally posted by bbrem123 Originally posted by bbrem123
can some post the scans of supes beating etrigan?

This is my bad here because I was thinking of PreNU. I don't know if Etrigan has even shown up in the Nu.



Apologies for bringing common sense into the mix, my bad. I'll get rid of it then. Yeah, Blackbolt and Etrigan win this fight. Superman won't use his speed because..well, just because, I guess and Blackbolt is totally durable enough to take hundreds of hits from him even if he had his speed, since it's not like he has ever been hurt by people on the level of Supes, no..never. Not one time.

Originally posted by Surtur
Blackbolt not trying doesn't magically lower his durability, why in gods name would you ever think it would?



Nope, but it's not a part of Supes personality to not use speed, I'm unsure why grasping this concept is so difficult for people. In character, he has no issues against speed. PIS is where the issues come in. To say he won't speedblitz is basically just an attempt to handicap the character..to which then what is the point? What is the point if you have to specifically go out of your way to handicap the guy? To the point where you ignore that his personality has nothing to do with not using speed. He is anti-killing, not anti- super speed.

Nice edit, but still, the point is that Superman almost never uses his speed unless he has to, whereas you seem to be arguing that he'd use it from the start.

That's out of character, imo. And no, it isn't lowballing.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Nice edit, but still, the point is that Superman almost never uses his speed unless he has to, whereas you seem to be arguing that he'd use it from the start.

That's out of character, imo. And no, it isn't lowballing.

He's used it enough to make sure it is a thing he is aware of. It's lowballing to say he won't use it against a guy he knows can kill him with a word. It's not out of character. Show me a single scan of Superman commenting on being afraid to use his speed or otherwise suggesting he doesn't use it on purpose.

Do you have any scan like that?

Also, which is it? One mod says these characters will absolutely use their speed and the other says nope, he won't.

Originally posted by Surtur
He's used it enough to make sure it is a thing he is aware of. It's lowballing to say he won't use it against a guy he knows can kill him with a word. It's not out of character. Show me a single scan of Superman commenting on being afraid to use his speed or otherwise suggesting he doesn't use it on purpose.

Do you have any scan like that?

Also, you need to make up your mind. One mod says these characters will absolutely use their speed and the other says nope, he won't.

I never even remotely implied that Superman is ever afraid to use his speed.

How would he know that Blackbolt can kill him with a word?

You took his words out of context. I know, as I wrote the rules alongside him. They don't forget they have speed.

Originally posted by Surtur

Also, which is it? One mod says these characters will absolutely use their speed and the other says nope, he won't.

Pr is saying he'll use his speed but not at the level of his absolute highest showings from the get go, superman normally fights at a lower level due to mental blocks and not wanting to hurt people more than needed.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I never even remotely implied that Superman is ever afraid to use his speed.

You kinda are, by saying he won't use it even though it says characters fight to full capacity. But you are saying he won't and it's not in character. So it's not in character for him, so what reason would he has to not use it, other then he is for some reason afraid? Do you have any scans of Nu Supes implying anything like this? You don't even need a specific scan, you could tell me the issue number.



Awfully confused. You claim you wrote the rules, but you seem to be unaware of the basic knowledge one. I'm hoping you aren't telling me Blackbolts scream wouldn't be covered under it.

Also, how am I taking it out of context?

"Superman, Flash, Shazam, Wonder Woman, etc. will all use their speed, period. If you have a problem then go to a pro-Marvel board, or contact Marvel and tell them to give characters speed feats.""

I'm sorry, but what? What out of context? He says they will use their speed, period. Look, if you want to say it's not like that, fine..but there is no way to take that out of context.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Pr is saying he'll use his speed but not at the level of his absolute highest showings from the get go, superman normally fights at a lower level due to mental blocks and not wanting to hurt people more than needed.

But that is silly, why wouldn't he go all out when the rules say they fight to full capacity? It's not a character trait for him not to use his speed, it is PIS. Ignoring the fact he doesn't need his full speed to blitz Blackbolt anyways.

But okay, we can totally say Blackbolt wins because Superman has been handicapped merely because he doesn't use his speed all the time.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Pr is saying he'll use his speed but not at the level of his absolute highest showings from the get go, superman normally fights at a lower level due to mental blocks and not wanting to hurt people more than needed.

Pr is merely jumping on the awesome DarkSaint bandwagon.


Originally posted by Surtur
This is my bad here because I was thinking of PreNU. I don't know if Etrigan has even shown up in the Nu.

Yeah, he has. No strength feats of yet, really, but loads of BFR feats. He'll just send people to Hell if needs be.



And Superman hasn't been hurt by people on Bolt's level, let alone preboot (I know I said DCnU Etrigan had no real strength feats, but you were more familiar with him) Etrigan?

Originally posted by Surtur
It's not a character trait for him not to use his speed, it is PIS.


This is the massive crux of the argument, I feel.

Pr and others (myself included) believe it IS a character trait not to use his speed.

Telling, however, that abhi has not weighed in on this particular debate. He more than anyone has convinced me of the mental blocks Supes always has....

Originally posted by Surtur
You kinda are, by saying he won't use it even though it says characters fight to full capacity. But you are saying he won't and it's not in character. So it's not in character for him, so what reason would he has to not use it, other then he is for some reason afraid? Do you have any scans of Nu Supes implying anything like this? You don't even need a specific scan, you could tell me the issue number.



Awfully confused. You claim you wrote the rules, but you seem to be unaware of the basic knowledge one. I'm hoping you aren't telling me Blackbolts scream wouldn't be covered under it.

Also, how am I taking it out of context?

"Superman, Flash, Shazam, Wonder Woman, etc. will all use their speed, period. If you have a problem then go to a pro-Marvel board, or contact Marvel and tell them to give characters speed feats.""

I'm sorry, but what? What out of context? He says they will use their speed, period. Look, if you want to say it's not like that, fine..but there is no way to take that out of context.

That isn't what I'm saying at all.

If you want the official mod stance on ability and personality, here it is:

Originally posted by Raoul
Clarification of CIS

Ok people, here are the finalised rules as regards PIS, CIS, and everything related to it.

PIS is, as always, off unless the thread starter says it's ON.

CIS, as was said before, is now a more diverse term, but is not as vague as before.

While CIS still exists in the form of characters like Rhino (who are just too stupid to know better), it also exists in one other form.

This is known as Character Inhibited Power. This applies to characters that have intelligence, like the Silver Surfer, Superman, and so on and so forth.

As Bada said:

"It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold."

What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots. The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.

In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:

The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience

Those four are key.

Example:

If Martian Manhunter fights say, Juggernaut.

MM doesn't personally know Juggernaut (Opponent). So he has Basic Information. This is categorised as being what the general public would know about the Juggernaut. It goes by averages. If that average man or woman on the street knows that Juggernaut is super strong, then MM knows. The average man or woman doesn't know, however, that the Juggernaut is weak against psionics. J'onn would approach with caution, not knowing whether Juggernaut was in his weight class, and not knowing the full extent of the man's powers.

However. If Martian Manhunter went up against Amazo, he would know to go for broke right at the start, because he KNOWS Amazo (Personality and Experience). He will use his speed, his strength, his shapeshifting. This is because if he knows what it takes to bring down Amazo, or he believes his standard attacks won't work. If J'onn was fighting Juggernaut, there would come a point when he would realise that normal attacks won't work, and would up his game. Any character that doesn't suffer from Rhino-esque stupidity is capable of this. Even with this, though, the Arena comes in to play. If civilians are in danger, J'onn won't shapeshift in to a fire breathing dragon. Juggernaut on the other hand doesn't care, so wouldn't hesitate to toss cars and trucks full of civilians at the Martian.

Examples:

Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.

Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.

It ALL comes down to the CHARACTER, not the POWERSET.

And no, the full extent of Blackbolt's scream is not covered under basic knowledge.

Superman would know that Blackbolt has a powerful scream... And that's it. You try telling Superman someone has a powerful attack, and see how many times he doesn't decide to just try and tank it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This is the massive crux of the argument, I feel.

Pr and others (myself included) believe it IS a character trait not to use his speed.

Telling, however, that abhi has not weighed in on this particular debate. He more than anyone has convinced me of the mental blocks Supes always has....

Superman believes in a fair fight until he's in danger of losing, basically.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Pr is merely jumping on the awesome DarkSaint bandwagon.



Yeah, he has. No strength feats of yet, really, but loads of BFR feats. He'll just send people to Hell if needs be.



And Superman hasn't been hurt by people on Bolt's level, let alone preboot (I know I said DCnU Etrigan had no real strength feats, but you were more familiar with him) Etrigan?

I never said Blackbolt couldn't hurt him if he got the chance to act. Since his whisper can KO the Hulk, he wouldn't even need a full scream.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That isn't what I'm saying at all.

If you want the official mod stance on ability and personality, here it is:

Okay, so then the quote I just posted, that mod was flat out mistaken then, yes? Since it is contradictory and it can't be both ways. You can't say Superman will use his speed period..and then follow it up with "but he totally won't because he doesn't always use it!". Since, then the "he uses it, period" makes no sense whatsoever.



No, he doesn't always try to tank powerful attacks just because..that's hardly something you can say is a part of his character. Purposely tanking powerful attacks could lead to huge collateral damage, etc. Why would Superman want that?

And Blackbolts scream is basic knowledge, but the power level isn't? That makes no sense. How is the scream basic knowledge, but not the power level? The big thing about his scream is how destructive it is, it is odd to suggest the scream itself would be known without that hugely important detail.



Scans of Superman saying this that make you believe this?

Though at the end of the day then, this comes down to "Blackbolt wins because his opponent doesn't use his full power" which..well, okay.

Originally posted by Surtur
Okay, so then the quote I just posted, that mod was flat out mistaken then, yes? Since it is contradictory and it can't be both ways. You can't say Superman will use his speed period..and then follow it up with "but he totally won't because he doesn't always use it!". Since, then the "he uses it, period" makes no sense whatsoever.



No, he doesn't always try to tank powerful attacks just because..that's hardly something you can say is a part of his character. Purposely tanking powerful attacks could lead to huge collateral damage, etc. Why would Superman want that?

And Blackbolts scream is basic knowledge, but the power level isn't? That makes no sense. How is the scream basic knowledge, but not the power level? The big thing about his scream is how destructive it is, it is odd to suggest the scream itself would be known without that hugely important detail.



Scans of Superman saying this that make you believe this?

Though at the end of the day then, this comes down to "Blackbolt wins because his opponent doesn't use his full power" which..well, okay.

Bada was speaking generally, because far too many people on this board believe that Superman's super-speed is shit. Until we made it a rule, people would flat out say he was slow as shit. So we have to be heavy-handed when it comes to stuff like this. If anything is believed to be ambiguous, then the rules provide clarification.

Superman won't handicap himself, but that doesn't mean that the moment the bell rings, he's going to try and force his fist down Blackbolt's throat.

Most of the time, Superman does try. That's part of his character. He's the actual tank of the Justice League, going by rpg terms. He just puts out a shit-load of DPS too.

I'm not arguing that Blackbolt would win. At all.

Originally posted by Surtur
There is no scan that says "he is fighting at lightspeed". It doesn't mean he can't, since he can move at such speeds, we extrapolate what he can do based on other feats.

If you have a problem with that, DCnU Superman is now incapable of throwing a car into space. After all, I have no scans of him doing it.



Yeah, but basic knowledge means he won't not use his speed..and he isn't always not using speed because he isn't sure if he needs to pull his punches. He's used it enough times to say he'd use it if going to full capacity. Saying he won't is essentially handicapping him merely to give the other team a shot. What then is the point? Okay, so Blackbolt can totally beat a Superman fighting like a moron.

Or hell, let's be generous and say the guy only throws 100 punches before Blackbolt reacts. The guy still isn't durable enough to tank 100 punches from a guy who bench press the planet.

But anyways, what is the point in putting Superman in any fights here if people are going to constantly try to lowball or handicap him? It's weird to me that Superman fights have him being lowballed, while his opponents are being grossly overestimated(Black bolt here, Loki in the other thread..and I'm sure I could find more if I bothered to look).

Is this a thing people have against Superman or is it just characters with high end super speed in general?

It doesn't work like that. We don't hand out abilities unless displayed on panel. So again, can you provide scans backing up your claims. How about this. Black Bolt counters Superman's speed by combating him at 3 times the speed of light.

Originally posted by carver9
It doesn't work like that. We don't hand out abilities unless displayed on panel. So again, can you provide scans backing up your claims. How about this. Black Bolt counters Superman's speed by combating him at 3 times the speed of light.

Shut up, Carver.

Originally posted by Surtur

And Blackbolts scream is basic knowledge, but the power level isn't? That makes no sense. How is the scream basic knowledge, but not the power level? The big thing about his scream is how destructive it is, it is odd to suggest the scream itself would be known without that hugely important detail.
It's powerful, sure. How powerful would you say it was? You seem a pretty knowledgeable guy on comics, on both Marvel and DC - would you have known, for example, all the things that BB's voice can do? You would just know that its powerful. General knowledge is what the general populace of Marvel Earth knows - and all they'd know is that its pretty powerful. Nu Supes would be pretty confident he can tank it.


There are numerous scans of Superman saying or thinking how he's holding back, or WAS holding back etc. Would you take that?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Bada was speaking generally, because far too many people on this board believe that Superman's super-speed is shit. Until we made it a rule, people would flat out say he was slow as shit. So we have to be heavy-handed when it comes to stuff like this. If anything is believed to be ambiguous, then the rules provide clarification.

Superman won't handicap himself, but that doesn't mean that the moment the bell rings, he's going to try and force his fist down Blackbolt's throat.

Most of the time, Superman does try. That's part of his character. He's the actual tank of the Justice League, going by rpg terms. He just puts out a shit-load of DPS too.

I'm not arguing that Blackbolt would win. At all.

I don't know, Nu Superman sure didn't hesitate to choke the hell out of Batman or blindside Captain Marvel...

I don't really keep up with Nu 52, but from the little I've seen, he's ridiculously more aggressive now.

Originally posted by maxivitopowe
Opening blow is likely to be Supes bum rushing Blackbolt, Blackbolt letting out a suprised grunt and sending Supes flying

Originally posted by cdtm
I don't know, Nu Superman sure didn't hesitate to choke the hell out of Batman or blindside Captain Marvel...

I don't really keep up with Nu 52, but from the little I've seen, he's ridiculously more aggressive now.

He also was choking Hal, IIRC. He's more arrogant, but he still doesn't go for the blitz at the very first go (he knew about Marvel, and that he could take a beating).

He's content to tank a shot, then slap someone down.

Originally posted by Surtur
Umm, no, why is this so hard to get? The dude has shown he has lightspeed reflexes, he can move and react at those speeds. He doesn't need a specific feat of throwing 1,000 punches. We can extrapolate from other feats, it's a neat thing we can do. Superman has never picked up a car and thrown it into space, but guess what? He totally can, and why? Going by his other feats, he should be capable of it. Why? He can hold the weight of a planet, and cars weigh less then planets. See what I did there? No on panel feat and yet..we can use other feats to come to that conclusion. Crazy, right?



Sorry, but no, Black Bolt was feeling the hits. He won't be surviving a blitz, sorry if you can't accept that. Because your argument is applicable to anyone who has ever moved at lightspeed.
And Superman picking up a car is in no way comparable to throwing 1000 punches in the blink of an eye. In fact, if you want that comparison to make sense, you'd have to have Superman throwing more than 1000 punches in a blink of an eye.

And the funny thing is that you're arguing for something here that Superman has never done, while in another thread you're stating that Loki's speed feats don't count because he doesn't have that much of them IYO. How does this work? Does it only count if Superman gets a feat or something?

Good for him. He still wasn't knocked out. He still wasn't blitzed by someone with nanosecond reflexes. And he was still winning. Sorry if you can't accept that your example fails.

And sorry if you can't accept that you don't have any proof.

T1, but it's not a stomp.

Originally posted by cdtm
I don't know, Nu Superman sure didn't hesitate to choke the hell out of Batman or blindside Captain Marvel...

I don't really keep up with Nu 52, but from the little I've seen, he's ridiculously more aggressive now.

Pretty much what DS said. He is more aggressive to a point, but he's still Superman.

Either way, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that Superman has super-speed that he can utilise. How much he utilises it and how soon he does is a question that people don't agree on the answer to, but I don't see it having that much of an impact on the fight either way.

Originally posted by Mindship
T1, but it's not a stomp.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Pretty much what DS said. He is more aggressive to a point, but he's still Superman.

Either way, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that Superman has super-speed that he can utilise. How much he utilises it and how soon he does is a question that people don't agree on the answer to, but I don't see it having that much of an impact on the fight either way.

Exactly, I don't even know why I was bothering arguing the lightspeed thing, as he doesn't need to be that fast to hit Blackbolt enough times to KO him before he reacts. Gladiator has done it, and done it with less then 50 punches. Nu Superman can do it too.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Beating Sphinx without ka stones means what exactly? In terms of strength, BB is below top elites like Thor.
What are you talking about? Why would he not have a kA stone?

Originally posted by Surtur
Exactly, I don't even know why I was bothering arguing the lightspeed thing, as he doesn't need to be that fast to hit Blackbolt enough times to KO him before he reacts. Gladiator has done it, and done it with less then 50 punches. Nu Superman can do it too.

When has gladiator koed Black Bolt before he can react? I've been out of the cosmic loop for a while, but all the old fights were them actually fighting not him being casually knocked out.

Originally posted by leonidas

Originally posted by operator616
How did you come to the conclusion that he doesn't possess the Ka stone in that instance? It's right there on his forehead where it's always been. Sphinx literally mentions that he's possessing the power of Ka stone one page prior to that scan:

http://i.imgur.com/EgKk25P.jpg

Although it should be noted that in that time period the Ka Stone wasn't that uber-powerful, it (and subsequently, Sphinx) had no significant feats such as the ones that came later in New Warriors v1 where it warped reality. And Sphinx never even wanted the Ka stone since he didn't want to be immortal.
Ooops, I messed up my timeline of Sphinx. I thought the fight happened after Galactus took away the Ka stone from Sphinx.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
What are you talking about? Why would he not have a kA stone?

Originally posted by Surtur
Blackbolt not trying doesn't magically lower his durability, why in gods name would you ever think it would? his electron control can boost his stats. namor isn't weak but blackbolt can beat him if he feels like it

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ooops, I messed up my timeline of Sphinx. I thought the fight happened after Galactus took away the Ka stone from Sphinx.


Now that's solved, explain why you think Black Bolt's average is Thing level?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Now that's solved, explain why you think Black Bolt's average is Thing level? lol impossible

Originally posted by psycho gundam
his electron control can boost his stats. namor isn't weak but blackbolt can beat him if he feels like it Black Bolt one shotted Namor before. Into a dam of water...

He also made Karnak look like a slow fool twice in the same issue. Though his voice was written like shit. But meh, he thought he was a kid

Also Sphinx thought he was completely invincible before he fought BB, though obviously not on the level he was when he faced Galactus (no Worldmind amp), he was still on his usual level which was high end shit.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ooops, I messed up my timeline of Sphinx. I thought the fight happened after Galactus took away the Ka stone from Sphinx.

look at the scan in question next time, dummy

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Now that's solved, explain why you think Black Bolt's average is Thing level?
Because that's where his average is. Duh. But seriously, Thing has stalemated him in a slugfest several times including FF 46, FF 411 and Thing 7. I can post the scans if you want.



Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Black Bolt one shotted Namor before. Into a dam of water...

He also made Karnak look like a slow fool twice in the same issue. Though his voice was written like shit. But meh, he thought he was a kid

Also Sphinx thought he was completely invincible before he fought BB, though obviously not on the level he was when he faced Galactus (no Worldmind amp), he was still on his usual level which was high end shit.
The funny thing is, Thing stalemated him in the very same issue.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Because that's where his average is. Duh. But seriously, Thing has stalemated him in a slugfest several times including FF 46, FF 411 and Thing 7. I can post the scans if you want.




The funny thing is, Thing stalemated him in the very same issue.
FF 46 yes. FF 411 he was fending off multiple people which included Namor who he one shorted. Can't really call it a stalemate when after getting hit by one of Ben's attack, he feigns a KO so he can draw in the rest of the team to use his quasi sonic attack.. Thing 7, can't recall that one.

Even then, just because Ben seems to do ok against him he is automatically thing level. We just discredit all his other showings with the likes of Hulk, Thor, Gladiator, and the like...?

I guess SBP is Superboy level since he always seems to do well against him.. Amirite?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
FF 46 yes. FF 411 he was fending off multiple people which included Namor who he one shorted. Can't really call it a stalemate when after getting hit by one of Ben's attack, he feigns a KO so he can draw in the rest of the team to use his quasi sonic attack.. Thing 7, can't recall that one.

Even then, just because Ben seems to do ok against him he is automatically thing level. We just discredit all his other showings with the likes of Hulk, Thor, Gladiator, and the like...?

I guess SBP is Superboy level since he always seems to do well against him.. Amirite?
FF 46 and 411, he actually downed Bolt. Oh and two other fights from Thing 3 and Thing: Last line of defense where they stalemated.

http://i.imgur.com/ByEyE64.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5ZcgBTo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/f12dFDl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/k0kYEOg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KS2Tpgw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BEH1MpU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MnOljQB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aZjitGa.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn11.jpg


I don't know about that, he always looks physically weaker against Hulk or Thor. Gladiator is the jobber of the jobbers. Vulcan overpowered BB in the same series.

srug

Originally posted by abhilegend
FF 46 and 411, he actually downed Bolt. Oh and two other fights from Thing 3 and Thing: Last line of defense where they stalemated.

http://i.imgur.com/ByEyE64.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5ZcgBTo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/f12dFDl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/k0kYEOg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KS2Tpgw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BEH1MpU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MnOljQB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aZjitGa.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/thorion/blackbolt/fkarn11.jpg


I don't know about that, he always looks physically weaker against Hulk or Thor. Gladiator is the jobber of the jobbers. Vulcan overpowered BB in the same series.

srug
So basically you've showed really only one or two instances that can really be called a stalemate....

Thor and Hulk is still Thor and Hulk.
So now his showings with Gladiator are pis..
If anything that Vulcan fight was more an energy battle as opposed to physical..

Thing managed to give fights to BB just like he's given to nearly every other main character. So let's lowball BB because of it. Might as well go into ever Thor thread and do the same. Oh lovely, Thor is here, so I can't see the relevance in bringing up Thing when two people share the average of Thing fights. They must be on the same level, no?

Also lol at Thing taking out BB in 46 and 411.
Black Bolt thought he was a kid in 411 and it blatantly said and showed he feigned defeat. And BB had Thing completely stunned and at his mercy in 46 before he inexplicably ran out of energy, which I don't even think is a thing anymore.

But lying and low balling works too. I can't even imagine what Thing has to do with this fight though unless we're under the assumption that BB is Thing level.
You'd think it'd get boring strictly low balling every single character who isn't Superman all the time on the forum but guess not. High ball Superman, do the complete opposite to everyone else. That'll prove the point. Such a tactic works for other posters who like to "slash" the turkey...

Everytime I think of taking him off ignore I am swiftly reminded what a mistake that'd be.

Superman one shots BB though, no blitz required. I mean, that is the point of trying to say he's only Thing level isn't it?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Superman one shots BB though, no blitz required. I mean, that is the point of trying to say he's only Thing level isn't it?

It's Abhi. What do you expect?

I wish Smurph was here.

Where is Smurph

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Might as well go into ever Thor thread and do the same.
He's already been there and done that.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
So basically you've showed really only one or two instances that can really be called a stalemate....

Thor and Hulk is still Thor and Hulk.
So now his showings with Gladiator are pis..
If anything that Vulcan fight was more an energy battle as opposed to physical..
Not really. He is Thing level on average, he can amp himself to elite level but he rarely does so.

And not PIS, jobbing on part of Gladiator.

Vulcan still overpowered him physically.Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Thing managed to give fights to BB just like he's given to nearly every other main character. So let's lowball BB because of it. Might as well go into ever Thor thread and do the same. Oh lovely, Thor is here, so I can't see the relevance in bringing up Thing when two people share the average of Thing fights. They must be on the same level, no?

Also lol at Thing taking out BB in 46 and 411.
Black Bolt thought he was a kid in 411 and it blatantly said and showed he feigned defeat. And BB had Thing completely stunned and at his mercy in 46 before he inexplicably ran out of energy, which I don't even think is a thing anymore.

But lying and low balling works too. I can't even imagine what Thing has to do with this fight though unless we're under the assumption that BB is Thing level.
You'd think it'd get boring strictly low balling every single character who isn't Superman all the time on the forum but guess not. High ball Superman, do the complete opposite to everyone else. That'll prove the point. Such a tactic works for other posters who like to "slash" the turkey...

Everytime I think of taking him off ignore I am swiftly reminded what a mistake that'd be. Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Superman one shots BB though, no blitz required. I mean, that is the point of trying to say he's only Thing level isn't it?
@ this meltdown. Remind me when I said anything about Superman oneshotting Black Bolt or something.


And don't worry, somebody tell this "charming guy" that I'm enduring the agony of being in his ignore list just fine.

So full of himself its not even funny.

Originally posted by -Pr-
It's Abhi. What do you expect?

I wish Smurph was here.
The funny thing is, I said no such thing. I said team 1 wins but it would be a good fight. Bran is just being his usual "self" which is being full of himself.

And I've actually made Smurph concede on this very point.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533940&pagenumber=11

Bran can go and suck a dick.

uhuh

Originally posted by -Pr-
It's Abhi. What do you expect?

I wish Smurph was here.

It's pretty annoying when every thread he posts in its an argument about low feats. Might as well start pm'ing Carver every low feat of every character who isn't Surfer imo. Or Hulk I guess to play to his needs.

Originally posted by abhilegend
And I've actually made Smurph concede on this very point.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533940&pagenumber=11

Bran can go and suck a dick.

uhuh that's one way to see it....

Originally posted by abhilegend
And I've actually made Smurph concede on this very point.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=533940&pagenumber=11

Bran can go and suck a dick.

uhuh
Don't think that's making someone concede.

Reported

Originally posted by psycho gundam
that's one way to see it.... Originally posted by Epicurus
Don't think that's making someone concede.
Way to take a humorous post.

facepalm

Originally posted by abhilegend
Way to take a humorous post.

facepalm
You thought that was humorous?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
You thought that was humorous?

Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
When has gladiator koed Black Bolt before he can react? I've been out of the cosmic loop for a while, but all the old fights were them actually fighting not him being casually knocked out.

Wow, okay, no..he's never KOed him before he can react. He has KOed him, and it didn't take 100 punches to do so. Blackbolt isn't taking a blitz here.

Then we have..why the obnoxious replies? The "oh not this person again" and all that. If it's so hard to deal with logic, common sense, and characters using their powers to the fullest then I don't know what to tell you.