General Grievous's Performance

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Emperordmb
Okay... so we all know that Grievous's performance seems very inconsistent and maybe a little bit unimpressive. Then with Grievous's performance against Maul in Son's of Dathomir, he suddenly has a great feat that seems beyond his grasp to some.

I'm going to go with the theory that Grievous improved considerably as the clone wars progressed. So I'm going to try an analyze his various feats to determine his improvement and factors that may have led to his at times underwhelming performance.

Grievous's first and seemingly most impressive feat is his performance during the battle of Hypori. Of the five Jedi that he engaged, one of them was not a master, and one if the masters didn't have any impressive feats prior. Aside from this, all five of them were exhausted and being the Jedi's first encounter with Grievous, they were completely unused to and unfamiliar with Grievous's unorthodox fighting style. This battle may have also led to some of his future cockiness when dealing with Jedi.

Grievous forced Ahsoka to a retreat and she cut off one of his hands before running away. Grievous was almost certainly being cocky here and clearly wasn't trying very hard, and so she caught him by surprise and was still forced to run to avoid being sliced to ribbons.

At the beginning of the Clone Wars he lost to Fisto, though admittedly he wasn't in the best physical condition as he was coughing more than usual, and his doctor droid said that he needed his rest. Factor in Fisto's stlye's effectiveness on Grievous and his defeat becomes plausible.

Then we have Grievous's encounter with Eeth Koth, another member of the Jedi High Council. Grievous was initially driving Koth into a retreat using only two of his arms and lightsabers, until Koth got a temporary edge with a force push then was subdued by Magnaguards. So Grievousheld the edge for most of that fight only fighting with half of his arms and weapons until the force was used for Koth to gain a temporary advantage. The fact that the Magnaguards intervened is not indicative of the fact that Grievous would've lost the fight when he was clearly the superior melee combatant of the two.

Now I will be addressing what is perhaps his worst showing of all time... losing to Gungans. My personal viewpoint here is that he got too cocky. He was easily dispatching the Gungans prior to Captain Tarpals sacrificing himself, and even managed to make short work of the Captain before his dying act, which caught him seriously off guard, as he wouldn't expect a guy he just plunged a spear into to be capable of stabbing him back. After he was seriously wounded by that he was at the same time severely outnumbered, so the Gungans brought him down. Tarpals also evidently may be a greater warrior than given credit for. He's not a stupid Gungan like Jar Jar, so I wouldn't negatively associate how impressive he is with Jar Jar's personal stupidity. Tarpals did a cool little kick weapon up from the ground with foot and catch it thing before actually landing a good hit on the General, dodging a few strikes, and managing to stab Grievous after being mortally wounded. He is evidently made out to be a quite a badass despite the negative Jar Jar related connotations of being a Gungan. And aside from this, Grievous having a low showing does not mean that he sucks. Dooku got captured by drunken pirates, and he's still a badass.

Next we have Grievous's defeat at the hands of Asajj Ventress. I also attribute this loss to the good General being cocky. At the beginning he was initially holding the edge in their duel by kicking Ventress back, and this becomes more relevant if you count the deleted scene where he kicks her onto the ground for a few seconds and a Nightsister intervenes to save her before getting mercilessly cut down. Basically Grievous was beating her, he got cocky, and Ventress caught him off guard while pushing herself to the limit of her capabilities. Ventress may also have been fueled by the connection the Nightsisters have to Dathomir.

Now we have Grievous's performance against Kenobi various times during the Clone Wars. While his performance against Kenobi is very consistent amongst everything else, I will also assert the idea that Kenobi improved a lot as well throughout the Clone Wars, from losing to Fisto to being able to hold off Maul and Savage at once. So I will assert that their performances against eachother are so consistent because both improved quite a bit during the Clone Wars.

Next we have Grievous being held off by Ahsoka on Florrum. I'm going to say that Grievous got cocky and wasn't trying too much. This is evident by the laughing, and most importantly the fact that he floors her in twenty seconds, deliberately passing up an easy opportunity to kill her for his own amusement. Ahsoka then fights a bit longer and runs away.

Most recently, we have been exposed to Grievous's performance against Maul in Son of Dathomir. They clashed quickly, Grievous kicked him away, and Maul retreated because of the defeat of his own forces. Grievous's prior performance against Kenobi, and his soon after performances against Dooku, Windu, and Kenobi again suggest that he is in fact capable of competing with Maul in a duel. The kick he landed on Maul does not definitively indicate his superiority over Maul however. Maul was arguably not in the best condition so soon after his release from prison and after Grievous's Magnaguards fought him to "soften him up." The kick does not also indicate assured victory for Grievous, as opponents with lesser physical feats have continued to fight him even after the General landed a good kick on them. And aside from that it was too short a fight to properly determine the superior of the two in melee combat.

Then we have Grievous pressing Dooku in a duel only using two of his arms and lightsabers, though Dooku was clearly in control of the fight.

What is perhaps his most impressive feat is keeping up with Windu in a duel, with the two matching eachother's combat speed of 20 strikes a second on board the train thing.

Grievous was also initially overwhelming Kenobi's defense with his full offensive capabilities, forcing Kenobi to reduce his arm count to continue the fight, and even did Grievous did well in a duel.



So basically, Grievous's more impressive feats are closer to the end, and his seemingly most inconsistent feats are not entirely what they seem. Grievous's various performances actually make a lot of sense when you consider various factors in his fights as well as his almost overwhelming hubris at times.

PTforthewin
Eeth Koth would have won

ares834
He kicked a "soften(ed) up" Maul. It's really not all that impressive. I mean he's done the same to others like Ventress and Kenobi. It's not like he defeated Maul in the duel or anything.

NewGuy01
Losing to Jedi that were amongst the best of their day isn't exactly unimpressive...



This cracks me up. Hasn't Grievous been doing just as well against Obi-Wan for the past 3 Seasons?



I was beginning to think no one was listening as I've been arguing this for months.



erm Being bested by one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order isn't bad, you know.



thumb up



Or it could be because Ventress is already at least as strong as Grievous, and she was being influenced by Dathomir's Dark Side Nexus.



thumb up Nicely said!



thumb up



Eh... Calling bullshit, here.



The 20 strikes per second thing was from the RotS duel, not LoE. Despite that fact, it's not what was impressive about this fight anyway.

The importance of this fight is not only was Grievous fighting Mace while being rendered almost completely immobile because of the environment, but he also was able to analyze and calculate a response to Mace's Vaapad after only exchanging a few blows, then continued to fight him off without any apparent disadvantage until Mace used Grievous's less than ideal environment situation against him.



Yep, overall this is a needed post. Grievous has tons of great feats that are almost completely overlooked. Hell, in LoE he slaughtered four Jedi that are all notable enough to have appeared in other works, and in the older comics I've heard he's done some pretty insane stuff too, like tanking fire from starships.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Losing to Jedi that were amongst the best of their day isn't exactly unimpressive...


This cracks me up. Hasn't Grievous been doing just as well against Obi-Wan for the past 3 Seasons?

erm Being bested by one of the greatest swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order isn't bad, you know.
I'm not saying that I personally think that Grievous's feats are unimpressive, I'm just saying it's a viewpoint held by many people and if anything my post suggests that it's a misconception.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
Or it could be because Ventress is already at least as strong as Grievous, and she was being influenced by Dathomir's Dark Side Nexus.
I do not doubt that Ventress is on Grievous's level and actually addressed Dathomir later on, I do however believe Grievous to be the superior combatant of the two on neutral ground, hubris aside.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Eh... Calling bullshit, here.
Meh, it wasn't my strongest argument there. Either way the value of that feat is hard to determine based on how short their fight was.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
The 20 strikes per second thing was from the RotS duel, not LoE. Despite that fact, it's not what was impressive about this fight anyway.

The importance of this fight is not only was Grievous fighting Mace while being rendered almost completely immobile because of the environment, but he also was able to analyze and calculate a response to Mace's Vaapad after only exchanging a few blows, then continued to fight him off without any apparent disadvantage until Mace used Grievous's less than ideal environment situation against him.
Another example of his improvement during the Clone Wars thumb up



Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yep, overall this is a needed post. Grievous has tons of great feats that are almost completely overlooked. Hell, in LoE he slaughtered four Jedi that are all notable enough to have appeared in other works, and in the older comics I've heard he's done some pretty insane stuff too, like tanking fire from starships.
Thank you

King Joker
Remember Koth was shot in the arm when they dueled.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by King Joker
Remember Koth was shot in the arm when they dueled.
And Grievous was only using two of his arms. If Koth hadn't been shot, and Grievous had been going all-out, I doubt the fight would've gone too differently.

WildBantha88
I think Grievous is a tremendous force to behold. Writers down played him a lot but he is actually pure badassness

King Joker
Grievous almost always uses two arms. What makes you think he wasn't going all-out? And Koth being shot definitely hindered his performance greatly. So if he wasn't shot Koth's performance would've been better than it already was.

WildBantha88
4 Arms grievous > 2 arms grivous

Emperordmb
Originally posted by King Joker
Grievous almost always uses two arms. What makes you think he wasn't going all-out? And Koth being shot definitely hindered his performance greatly. So if he wasn't shot Koth's performance would've been better than it already was.
Look this thread should be focusing mainly on Grievous performance as a whole, not nitpicking on one particular fight. Let's not get sidetracked here. If you want to do that, we can do it somewhere else.

PTforthewin
Eeth Koth is possibly the worst jedi ever, getting shot by a commando droid in the arm

King Joker
Originally posted by WildBantha88
4 Arms grievous > 2 arms grivous Grievous seems to favor using only two.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by King Joker
Grievous seems to favor using only two.
When he really gets into it he goes with all four. His fights with Fisto, Ventress, Kenobi, and Windu suggest as much, and they are arguably his most impressive opponents.

King Joker
Hmm, maybe. But the majority of his fights he used only two, including Hypori.

Eminence
He fights Mace with two. Which is good, because pretty much every time he uses all four of his hands he ends up losing some.

DARTH POWER
^ Yep I've not seen Grievous perform better with 4 Sabers than with 2.

In fact when he's fighting with 2 he tends to get surprise hits in with his free arms.


Originally posted by NewGuy01



I was beginning to think no one was listening as I've been arguing this for months.






Grievous even tells Kenobi in ROTS "You fool I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku.."

Why would he say that to someone he's fought several times before? Obviously because his training has come even further since the last time they fought. Grievous was trained by Dooku during TCW. So it's only logical he would be at his peak at the end of TCW.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by King Joker
Hmm, maybe. But the majority of his fights he used only two, including Hypori.
well to be fair, on hypori he had the element of surprise and the jedi were already exhausted from escaping the droids

Emperordmb
I think the number of arms he uses is a situational thing.

During the battle of Hypori, he didn't have as much experience fighting with four arms as he had more recently become a cyborg and didn't have as much experience fighting Jedi.

With Windu, two arms would have been more efficient because he had to maintain his footing and had hampered mobility.

With Koth however, he was working to overwhelm him, in which case using four would've been more effective.

Aside from Windu, whom he fought with two arms due to the situation and fact that the writer was trying to be consistent with the whole four arm reveal in OCW, he's almost always used four arms against his most deadly opponents when in a serious confrontation with them.

Darth Martin
He definitely was handled poorly in the ROTS film and TCW cartoon. Tartakovsky's potrayal and his feats in LOE should've been closer to what he should have been capable of.

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