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Who wins

Apocalypse solos.

Some serious answers plz

Team 1

Torn on this one. Nate/X-Man is essentially Stryfe (Cable without the limiter), and while in X-Cutioner's song Stryfe was able to 'kill' a weakened Apocalypse, and X-Man was able to weaken Apocalypse sufficiently for Magneto to finish him off in AOA (alternate reality), in Messiah War Stryfe and Bishop, together, were unable to kill Apocalypse in his rejuvenation chamber while both going all out, and when he was restored to full power he pretty much walked through Stryfe like he was Barry Horowitz and Apocalypse was Hulk Hogan. Apocalypse has also sonned Exodus, who while not being Nate, is also a high end telekinetic. I think this fight depends on whether Nate can take down 616 Apocalypse. If not, I think Apocalypse can kill both Nate and Vulcan (since Apocalypse doesn't have to rely on energy attacks or 'quantum magic' to take out Vulcan, he can simply cave his dome in like Gladiator did). I do think Nate can kill Apocalypse, though not every time, so I'd say 50:50. Given Nate and Vulcan's powers much of Sinister's offense gets neutralized so I'm not sure he'd be a prominent factor in this fight. Comes down to Nate vs. Apocalypse, and Nate has the goods to win a good portion of 10.

Team 1.

I'd lean towards team 1.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Torn on this one. Nate/X-Man is essentially Stryfe (Cable without the limiter), and while in X-Cutioner's song Stryfe was able to 'kill' a weakened Apocalypse, and X-Man was able to weaken Apocalypse sufficiently for Magneto to finish him off in AOA (alternate reality), in Messiah War Stryfe and Bishop, together, were unable to kill Apocalypse in his rejuvenation chamber while both going all out, and when he was restored to full power he pretty much walked through Stryfe like he was Barry Horowitz and Apocalypse was Hulk Hogan. Apocalypse has also sonned Exodus, who while not being Nate, is also a high end telekinetic. I think this fight depends on whether Nate can take down 616 Apocalypse. If not, I think Apocalypse can kill both Nate and Vulcan (since Apocalypse doesn't have to rely on energy attacks or 'quantum magic' to take out Vulcan, he can simply cave his dome in like Gladiator did). I do think Nate can kill Apocalypse, though not every time, so I'd say 50:50. Given Nate and Vulcan's powers much of Sinister's offense gets neutralized so I'm not sure he'd be a prominent factor in this fight. Comes down to Nate vs. Apocalypse, and Nate has the goods to win a good portion of 10.
Just to point something out, Nate is above both Cable, and Stryfe in terms of power. Cable himself stated that Nate possessed all f his potential, and then some. Plus he has displayed abilities such as psionic evolution, plus reality-warping.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Torn on this one. Nate/X-Man is essentially Stryfe (Cable without the limiter), and while in X-Cutioner's song Stryfe was able to 'kill' a weakened Apocalypse, and X-Man was able to weaken Apocalypse sufficiently for Magneto to finish him off in AOA (alternate reality), in Messiah War Stryfe and Bishop, together, were unable to kill Apocalypse in his rejuvenation chamber while both going all out, and when he was restored to full power he pretty much walked through Stryfe like he was Barry Horowitz and Apocalypse was Hulk Hogan. Apocalypse has also sonned Exodus, who while not being Nate, is also a high end telekinetic. I think this fight depends on whether Nate can take down 616 Apocalypse. If not, I think Apocalypse can kill both Nate and Vulcan (since Apocalypse doesn't have to rely on energy attacks or 'quantum magic' to take out Vulcan, he can simply cave his dome in like Gladiator did). I do think Nate can kill Apocalypse, though not every time, so I'd say 50:50. Given Nate and Vulcan's powers much of Sinister's offense gets neutralized so I'm not sure he'd be a prominent factor in this fight. Comes down to Nate vs. Apocalypse, and Nate has the goods to win a good portion of 10.

barry horowitz and hulk hogan?? nice....


and i brought up the stryfe battle before and admitted i couldn't recall all the context. how was apoc weakened again?

i think apoc vs vulcan is a bad match for vulcan though. if it came to 2 on 1 nate isn't taking both. if nate can kill sinister before apoc kills vulcan nate is in a lot of trouble. if it's vulcan and nate against apoc i'd take the team. it's a pretty close battle imo, about 50/50.

Team 1 wins

Originally posted by leonidas
barry horowitz and hulk hogan?? nice....


and i brought up the stryfe battle before and admitted i couldn't recall all the context. how was apoc weakened again?

In honor of my Barry Horowitz/Hulk Hogan line, I'm gonna keep the nostalgic theme going and do some of my old school 2005-2007 style posting.

During X-Cutioner's Song Mr. Sinister was impersonating Apocalypse in order to have the Four Horsemen kidnap Jean and Cyclops and frame Apocalypse for it. He cuts a deal with Stryfe and the MLF. Sinister had Jean and Cyclops kidnapped to trade them for a canister of the Legacy Virus (which Professor X has been infected with as a proving run). Apocalypse was in one of his hibernation cycles while this was all going down and was prematurely awoken by the Dark Riders (Apocalypse's other team of henchmen) who inform him of the happenings (that he's being played and someone is impersonating him and using the Horsemen to attack the X-Men):

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men014-011_zps4aaca419.jpg

Apocalypse was in a severely weakened state an almost unable to keep his form but still more than enough to take down the X-Men Blue Team, after the scene below, when he enters the X-Mansion to discover what's become of Scott and Jean (he defeats Beast, Colossus, Quicksilver, Storm, Iceman, and Archangel in 60 seconds while half dead and semi-solid):

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/UncannyX-Men295-001_zpscfccd7f6.jpg

That, however, took a lot out of Apocalypse in his incomplete state so he returns to Egypt to re-enter his Hibernation Chamber. Stryfe decides he needs to hit Apocalypse now before he has time to recover, or discover the plans he's set in motion, so he has Zero teleport him to the chamber where he takes out the Dark Riders and ambushes Apocalypse while he's even further weakend from the exertion against X-Factor. Stryfe knocks him around and eventually stabs him through the chest before teleporting him away. :

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-018_zps395b67f6.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-021_zps80a52616.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-022_zpsdaaa6e5f.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-001_zps444713e0.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-004_zps2b3384f9.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-005_zps26182ad3.jpg

Apocalypse doesn't die, however, but since he's nearly dead and Stryfe has proven himself stronger (stronger than a premature, not full powered, semi liquid Apocalypse) the Dark Riders turn on him as well due to his weakness ("only the strong shall survive", attacking him again and again nearly killing him, but he survives.

Apocalypse was literally breaking his bones from walking before he fought the Sex-Men.

You'd be hard pressed to find a more extreme example of being weakened than what Apocalypse was in that arc.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
In honor of my Barry Horowitz/Hulk Hogan line, I'm gonna keep the nostalgic theme going and do some of my old school 2005-2007 style posting.

During X-Cutioner's Song Mr. Sinister was impersonating Apocalypse in order to have the Four Horsemen kidnap Jean and Cyclops and frame Apocalypse for it. He cuts a deal with Stryfe and the MLF. Sinister had Jean and Cyclops kidnapped to trade them for a canister of the Legacy Virus (which Professor X has been infected with as a proving run). Apocalypse was in one of his hibernation cycles while this was all going down and was prematurely awoken by the Dark Riders (Apocalypse's other team of henchmen) who inform him of the happenings (that he's being played and someone is impersonating him and using the Horsemen to attack the X-Men):

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men014-011_zps4aaca419.jpg

Apocalypse was in a severely weakened state an almost unable to keep his form but still more than enough to take down the X-Men Blue Team, after the scene below, when he enters the X-Mansion to discover what's become of Scott and Jean (he defeats Beast, Colossus, Quicksilver, Storm, Iceman, and Archangel in 60 seconds while half dead and semi-solid):

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/UncannyX-Men295-001_zpscfccd7f6.jpg

That, however, took a lot out of Apocalypse in his incomplete state so he returns to Egypt to re-enter his Hibernation Chamber. Stryfe decides he needs to hit Apocalypse now before he has time to recover, or discover the plans he's set in motion, so he has Zero teleport him to the chamber where he takes out the Dark Riders and ambushes Apocalypse while he's even further weakend from the exertion against X-Factor. Stryfe knocks him around and eventually stabs him through the chest before teleporting him away. :

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-018_zps395b67f6.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-021_zps80a52616.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Men015-022_zpsdaaa6e5f.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-001_zps444713e0.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-004_zps2b3384f9.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/illadelph12_prime/X-Forcev1017-005_zps26182ad3.jpg

Apocalypse doesn't die, however, but since he's nearly dead and Stryfe has proven himself stronger (stronger than a premature, not full powered, semi liquid Apocalypse) the Dark Riders turn on him as well due to his weakness ("only the strong shall survive", attacking him again and again nearly killing him, but he survives.



been a long while since i read that arc and i knew it was convoluted. gawd i hate the x-men sometimes..... but yeah, case made.

It's part of the frustration of being an Apocalypse fan. Other than Galactus I don't think there's any other Marvel villain of his caliber who has suffered more plot device saturated losses. When he's at full power he's literally undefeated in direct combat. All of his 616 losses come from either being in an incomplete state of regeneration or a foiled plot (like The Twelve, for example, where he actually won, but since Cyclops dove into his machine and f*cked up the transformation Apocalypse became an incomplete Celestial level being and was eventually defeated because of Scott's psychic connection to Jean), not someone stepping to him at full power and defeating him. When he's at full power he pretty much walks through everything and everyone thrown at him

Originally posted by MF DELPH
It's part of the frustration of being an Apocalypse fan. Other than Galactus I don't think there's any other Marvel villain of his caliber who has suffered more plot device saturated losses. When he's at full power he's literally undefeated in direct combat. All of his 616 losses come from either being in an incomplete state of regeneration or a foiled plot (like The Twelve, for example, where he actually won, but since Cyclops dove into his machine and f*cked up the transformation Apocalypse became an incomplete Celestial level being and was eventually defeated because of Scott's psychic connection to Jean), not someone stepping to him at full power and defeating him. When he's at full power he pretty much walks through everything and everyone thrown at him it's pretty much the same with Thanos and defeats with the exception of rightly losing to Odin,Tyrant and Galactus etc .

That's the catch:

Apocalypse isn't written as weak.

He simply loses, as villains do.

His losses are held as an example of him being weak rather than simply being that villains always lose. The fact that he's an X-Man villain is held against him as a sign of weakness (though somehow Magneto and Onslaught shake that stigma). It makes no sense.

Then there's his accomplishments. Doom or Thanos not ruling the world currently within the storyline doesn't get held against them. Everyone accepts that Doom or Thanos are still powerful and could still conquer the world/universe when they choose to. There are various storylines (and timelines) where Apocalypse conquers the world, but people will flatly claim "Apocalypse never accomplishes anything". The character suffers from a double standard around here. Yes, he's more powerful than his main opponents (the X-Men) and gets his plans foiled, but pretty much all villains are more powerful than their protagonists and lose to them for sake of the story.

Hell, that stupid Namor/ducking out of the way of a table meme was prominent for years and has actually been considered as evidence that Apocalypse is weak, but by contrast, if you pulled the Squirrel Girl card on Thanos or Doom no one would take you seriously. It's just become acceptable to downplay Apocalypse's status on KMC.



*edit

Also, the more I think about it, the more I think we're understating Mr. Sinister's contribution to this fight. While his blasts and telepathy might get neutered early on he's still physically superior to Vulcan and could likely just physically take him out while Apocalypse engages Nate. I actually thing Vulcan is the weak link here due to either Apocalypse or Sinister being able to take him out in the same fashion Gladiator did.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
That's the catch:

Apocalypse isn't written as weak.

He simply loses, as villains do.

His losses are held as an example of him being weak rather than simply being that villains always lose. The fact that he's an X-Man villain is held against him as a sign of weakness (though somehow Magneto and Onslaught shake that stigma). It makes no sense.

Then there's his accomplishments. Doom or Thanos not ruling the world currently within the storyline doesn't get held against them. Everyone accepts that Doom or Thanos are still powerful and could still conquer the world/universe when they choose to. There are various storylines (and timelines) where Apocalypse conquers the world, but people will flatly claim "Apocalypse never accomplishes anything". The character suffers from a double standard around here. Yes, he's more powerful than his main opponents (the X-Men) and gets his plans foiled, but pretty much all villains are more powerful than their protagonists and lose to them for sake of the story.

Hell, that stupid Namor/ducking out of the way of a table meme was prominent for years and has actually been considered as evidence that Apocalypse is weak, but by contrast, if you pulled the Squirrel Girl card on Thanos or Doom no one would take you seriously. It's just become acceptable to downplay Apocalypse's status on KMC.







he's a character (one of the very few...) who is rant-worthy.

^See my edit.

I'm kinda leaning towards them in the fight now because the more I think about it the more I think we're selling Sinister short. He could take Vulcan out.

maybe, but that's not really sinister's style--especially the way he has been portrayed more recently. i don't see him charging in with fists blazing and as a result i think i'd still take vulcan even though he lacks sinsister's overall versatility. and while sinister has some good showings, i wouldn't put him near glads in terms of physical prowess. vulcan went h2h for a prolonged time against bolt, so even though the glads fight says one thing, the bolt fight says another. i don't think physicality is a sure way to a win against him at all. i still say it's really close and depends a lot of which arcs you choose to highlight for each character.

If its the Vulcan who fought Bolt, he stomps. Actually that whole arc he seemed to have some unsaid amp to his physicality.

If it's Vulcan who almost got killed by Polaris, easily beaten by amped Havok and Gladiator among other questionable showings, then Sinister is a good fight for him.

Didnt BB beat Gladiator in the same arc where he lost to Vulcan in h2h?

Meaning emperor Vulcan>Gladiator?

By abc logic off course.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
If its the Vulcan who fought Bolt, he stomps. Actually that whole arc he seemed to have some unsaid amp to his physicality.

If it's Vulcan who almost got killed by Polaris, easily beaten by amped Havok and Gladiator among other questionable showings, then Sinister is a good fight for him.

yep. but we could use the wok arc for vulcan and the goblin queen arc for sinister (i think that was the arc i'm thinking of...) and it would still be a good fight. sinister has, at times, been shown as a true monster. there is a LOT of variation of portrayal among these guys so it makes picking a winner really really tough.

Originally posted by leonidas
maybe, but that's not really sinister's style--especially the way he has been portrayed more recently. i don't see him charging in with fists blazing and as a result i think i'd still take vulcan even though he lacks sinsister's overall versatility. and while sinister has some good showings, i wouldn't put him near glads in terms of physical prowess. vulcan went h2h for a prolonged time against bolt, so even though the glads fight says one thing, the bolt fight says another. i don't think physicality is a sure way to a win against him at all. i still say it's really close and depends a lot of which arcs you choose to highlight for each character.

Sinister's a pragmatist and he's not above getting his hands dirty. They go into the fight knowing their opponents. Why would you resort to energy attacks when you're going against an energy manipulator? Apocalypse and Sinister have the physical edge.

If that arc was an indication of an amp then his other showings become irrelevant. In that fight with BB someone like Gladiator would have been annihilated, as would his prior Vulcan. So maybe an amp makes sense.

Though I guess he'd just be damaging a reforming Sinister. And Sinister does have some crazy showings before he started body jumping. Meh. Decent battle either way. Vulcan is going to be really hard to put down though if team 2 can win

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Sinister's a pragmatist and he's not above getting his hands dirty. They go into the fight knowing their opponents. Why would you resort to energy attacks when you're going against an energy manipulator? Apocalypse and Sinister have the physical edge.

possibly, but i still view him more of a schemer, and as someone who wouldn't go in for fisticuffs. and like i said, even if he did, i don't see that as a win for him necessarily. i'd more likely say its a 50/50 proposition.... as for the overall edge--you're likely right. nate can and has amped himself to some crazy physical levels though....

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
If that arc was an indication of an amp then his other showings become irrelevant. In that fight with BB someone like Gladiator would have been annihilated, as would his prior Vulcan. So maybe an amp makes sense.

Though I guess he'd just be damaging a reforming Sinister. And Sinister does have some crazy showings before he started body jumping. Meh. Decent battle either way. Vulcan is going to be really hard to put down though if team 2 can win

i didn't see that arc as an amp, but rather a depiction of what vulcan was capable of. and i don't think it was his best showing either. i still see the first arc centering around his first appearance as his best, by a long shot tbh. i view the gladiator beating as more a high feat for glads than a low one for vulcan, if that makes sense. given his powerset, and its definition, vulcan should be capable of SOLOING these guys. of course he couldn't, but i really liked his powerset a LOT. i had high hopes he would be a match for guys like ss. alas......

none of that contradicts what i said though--variability of showings makes this match a biatch to call. all highest showings? i'd take the summers though. average showings? far far closer..... MAYBE a VERY slight edge to apoc/sinister.

His first and second arcs he was essentially a Cyclops with energy manipulation (first arc was also with him having Sway/Petra/Darin powers). Next arc was him and Gladiator going on space adventures where he seemed tougher (the Eldest showing), but he still had no answer for sun amped Havok. After that he suddenly was able to go h2h with BB and was toying with Warlock who had enough energy in him to overlap time lines on top of each other under the same writers.

Basically no showing backs up his showing against BB. And that's quite a self amping ability if he just used energy to put himself at that level.

Another ability he showed was fighting in a near skeletal state. Previously he was nearly killed by Polaris crushing his suit into him and he was completely finished due to Havok burning him. Both nowhere near as bad as the state he was in against BB.

So... He either got a large amp, or he learned to amp his own abilities in a way that made his previous showings irrelevant. As well as some molecular control over his own body.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
His first and second arcs he was essentially a Cyclops with energy manipulation (first arc was also with him having Sway/Petra/Darin powers). Next arc was him and Gladiator going on space adventures where he seemed tougher (the Eldest showing), but he still had no answer for sun amped Havok. After that he suddenly was able to go h2h with BB and was toying with Warlock who had enough energy in him to overlap time lines on top of each other under the same writers.

Basically no showing backs up his showing against BB. And that's quite a self amping ability if he just used energy to put himself at that level.

Another ability he showed was fighting in a near skeletal state. Previously he was nearly killed by Polaris crushing his suit into him and he was completely finished due to Havok burning him. Both nowhere near as bad as the state he was in against BB.

So... He either got a large amp, or he learned to amp his own abilities in a way that made his previous showings irrelevant. As well as some molecular control over his own body.

that first arc where he took on the abilities of darwin et. al, was the one where vulcan had the most potential though. he literally shut jean down with a thought in that arc. he did show great durability against bolt though, no doubt. still, his amps were ONLY hinted at in that first arc. if he had retained all those additional abilities, he would truly have been an omega level beast.

True, I'm mostly talking about his low showings though. He evidentally got a lot more powerful as time went on. So much so that it covered prior defeats. It would be interesting to see where he'd be at if he didn't die.

And I'm not sure where to place the anagrammed Vulcan. Tbh WOK was probably more powerful, but without the added abilities. Sway and Darwin were the only real beneficial powers he acquired. I wonder if he would have realized how to mimic them down the line had he survived.

that would have been awesome. marvel had a nice opportunity to make one of their mutants a 'cosmic' style hero/villain and pi$$ed it away imo. i think he could have been a great character had someone really taken his abilities and explored them fully....

Wait, iirc, didn't Vulcan's higher end showings have to do with him tampering with energies from the M'Kraan Crystal during his coup?

hmm....no.....not that i recall anyway. he didn't gain any amps from the crystal i don't think. bran, you remember anything like that?

I think I have the comics saved on one of my external hds. I'll do some research.

the crystal was in the arc i know that, but i don't think he ever really controlled it or was amped from it. there was a what if that had him controlling it iirc, or something like that. if you find something contrary, i'll happily admit to being wrong though. it's been a while since i read that arc.... (i seem to say that a lot lately... lol)

The Crystal was the What-If iirc and then he became the Phoenix.

I'm going to re-read the War of Kings arc over the weekend. This actually kind of interests me. I want to see if the comics actually explained how Vulcan went from having trouble with Polaris, Gladiator, and Havok (each individually) to somehow being able to go toe to toe with Black Bolt. IIRC even before Havok got tossed into the sun and amped he was able to beat the shit out of Vulcan after the prison break and was about to kill him before Lilandra teleported them away. That's a pretty significant unexplained jump in power within one story arc.

I was just going to re-read Emperor Vulcan to see. In Kingbreaker Vulcan also gets the shit kicked out of him by Havok. Though Havok was empowered by the Hodinn who was supposed to be a whole star. He didn't go out at least.

This comes down to Apocalypse vs. Nate and Apocalypse taking it.

OK, so my conclusion on Emperor Vulcan is that Vulcan retained some sort of powerup via tampering with the Scy'ar Eldest's energies.

Mind you Vulcan was taking shots better than Gladiator was so maybe he was just getting more durable naturally... but the absorption would explain his better showings.

All an assumption of course.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/x-men/X-MenEmperorVulcan04pg020.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/x-men/X-MenEmperorVulcan04pg021.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/x-men/X-MenEmperorVulcan04pg023.jpg



He was however taking shots somewhat well from a sun amped Havok though afterwards, and shots from Havok empowered from a full sun so meh. That shit would have crushed one shotted by Glads Vulcan.

A powerup would explain it, and this would be just about the only thing that would power him up besides his mutation amping his durability or him amping his own. All I'm saying is something happened. srug