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This is where I will analyze various fights that may seem low end, unrealistic, or even embarrassing for the defeated character, and where I will explain how such a thing is more plausible than is given credit for.

The gungans vs Grievous

Okay... we all know this fight that is often referenced and ridiculed as this character's absolute worst showing ever... Grievous's defeat at the hands of Gungans.

The Defeated: My personal viewpoint here is that Grievous got way too cocky. Given the fact that arrogance is very prominent amongst his tendencies, this argument makes a whole lot of since. Let's also consider the fact that Grievous was fighting Gungans. Consider how seriously we take Gungans for example, and it becomes easy to visualize how Grievous could view them in a similar way. This line of thought is heavily supported by Grievous's first line upon seeing his opponents, "You can't be serious." Pair Grievous's arrogance with how hard it is to take Gungans seriously and it starts to paint a picture of just how cocky Grievous must've been prior to his injury. He only stops being cocky once he has an electrospear stuck through his body and by that point, well he has an electrospear stuck through his body. So Grievous was definitely underperforming for this entire fight.

MVP: Tarpals was a General in the Gungan Grand army. He was also shown as being skilled enough to last a few seconds against Grievous while his fellow Gungans got slaughtered by Grievous with almost casual disdain. Tarpals also did a cool little kick weapon up from the ground with foot and catch it thing before actually engaging Grievous. While this may seem unimportant, it does suggest that the creators of TCW are building up Tarpals as a skilled badass. Last of all Tarpals was able to muster the strength to stab his spear through Grievous's armored chasis while mortally wounded. So in short, Tarpals seems to be a very capable warrior in his own right.

Victorious force: Gungans have a bit of negative connotation as a result of how ****ing stupid Jar Jar is. What you have to remember is that Jar Jar is just as stupid by their standards, and that is why they banished him from their city. With this in mind, some of the negative connotation they receive may be unfair. The Gungans Grievous faced were trained warriors, and not what is arguably the characterized version of syphilis, Jar Jar Binks. Some of the Gungans were armed with Boomers, a ball of condensed electrified plasma that shared some properties with an EMP. Such properties would be highly effective against a cyborg, like Grievous, should they successfully land a blow. There were also a lot of Gungans.

Conclusion: Grievous walked into the fight, not taking the Gungans seriously at all due to his own hubris and how ridiculous they seem, and killed those who attacked him with casual disdain. Then Tarpals, who is arguably their most skilled warrior stepped in, but despite all of his efforts, Grievous made short work of him, mortally wounding him. Being overwhelmingly cocky, Grievous certainly did not expect a Gungan he just mortally wounded to be capable of stabbing a spear through his body, but Tarpals did because he is a badass. Grievous was no longer cocky at that point, but was now seriously wounded, stunned and surrounded by several trained warriors armed with weaponry that is highly effective against machinery, such as Grievous's own cybernetics. Before Grievous had any time to recover, the Gungan army brought him down with their weaponry from all angles. Essentially the entire fight boiled down to one pivotal moment where an extremely cocky Grievous underestimated a highly skilled Gungan who he had mortally wounded.

One more TPM Kenobi vs. Darth Maul, and Darth Malgus vs Satele Shan second fight and her magical light saber absorbing ability ( PIS) in the knick of time

What about the Ewoks vs the Stormtroopers on Endor?

Originally posted by carthage
One more TPM Kenobi vs. Darth Maul
I may look into that at some point.

Originally posted by carthage
Darth Malgus vs Satele Shan second fight and her magical light saber absorbing ability ( PIS) in the knick of time
That fight actually makes a lot of sense, aside from Jace somehow tanking Malgus's lightning.

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
What about the Ewoks vs the Stormtroopers on Endor?
Not sure if I can logically explain that one, but I might look into that at some point and see what I can find.

My next one is going to be Dooku vs Pirates...

That was a pretty excellent analysis.

How about Mace Windu stalemated by child Boba?

^what?!?! Lol

Originally posted by Emperordmb
That fight actually makes a lot of sense, aside from Jace somehow tanking Malgus's lightning.

His armor is heavily insulated.

Here's another one that seems a tad embarrassing, yet I don't see it brought up too often for some reason when people are lowballing. Dooku's defeat at the hands of the Pirates.

The Defeated: An argument that may come up in Dooku's favor is the claim that Dooku was unarmed when he was defeated, but this would be a misconception. Hondo says that Dooku cut up some of his men with his lightsaber, meaning that Dooku did indeed reclaim his weapon during that fight. Let's take a look at his martial specializations though. As a lightsaber wielder, Dooku specialized almost exclusively in Makashi, which is known to be weak against blaster wielding assailants and multiple opponents, a category a horde of blaster wielding weequay pirates would certainly fit the description of. Dooku, while powerful, just isn't well specialized for this kind of encounter. Dooku is more specialized for duels than battles.

MVP: Hondo explains that he was the one responsible for turning the tide of the battle by "getting the jump" on Dooku, which is then implied to have been done by use of Anakin's lightsaber. Given that Hondo was fighting Ahsoka on even ground, and even managed to hold off Anakin for a little while in melee combat, this certainly suggests that Hondo is highly skilled in melee combat, and thus he may have actually been able to catch Dooku off guard with Anakin's lightsaber. Given his ability to hold his own against Anakin in a duel, it's actually quite plausible that Hondo could give Dooku some trouble as well.

Victorious force: the weequay pirates were very numerous and very well equipped, possessing blasters, cannons, tanks, turrets, and rocket launchers. A quote from Hondo actually suggests that the pirates made use of multiple cannons in that fight. They have also shown themselves to be quite cunning at times, which would certainly be a surprise to their opponents. They were also set up in a position to where they surrounded Dooku.

Conclusion: Dooku was surrounded by armed pirates while unarmed, but managed to reclaim his weapon. By this point, Dooku was armed, but still at a disadvantage of specialization against the pirates. Despite this disadvantage however, Dooku was cutting them up even as they began to bring out heavy firepower against him. Then Hondo, a melee combatant skilled enough to hold his own against Anakin for a little while, caught Dooku off guard by attacking him with Anakin's own lightsaber. Now with Hondo engaging Dooku in melee, meanwhile Dooku is surrounded by numerous pirates with heavy weaponry, which Dooku isn't well specialized for, you start to see how this all fits together. Dooku is outnumbered, not very well specialized for this type of encounter, and it being pressed by someone skilled in melee combat. It was simply too much for him.

How about Luke and Mara in Outbound flight barely being able to take out one droideka?

Here's another one that I've been wanting to do for a while... Bane vs Mercenaries

The Defeated: Right before the battle takes place, Bane muses that he is weary from his journey and in no shape to fight Zannah at that particular time, likely worn out from dominating Andeddu's will for several hours with unwavering focus, then spending the next few days processing all of the raw information he stole from Andeddu's holocron. Bane was also caught off guard by the first strike, and forced into the middle of all of his attackers at the beginning of the fight.

MVP: The Huntress was a very formidable opponent. Even working alone, she had never failed to kill anyone she tried to kill, having pretty much a perfect record as a bounty hunter. She also had a few unique talents that ultimately turned the fight in her favor. Her force suppression ability was very potent, being capable of preventing Bane's lightning from disintegrating people, and reducing the powers of another deadly force wielder to being only capable of staggering someone with all of his might. This power came into play against Bane when she was reducing his capabilities in that fight. Perhaps her more important ability to this fight however was her precognition and visions. Her highly advanced precognition allowed her to survive her encounter with Bane, by letting her see his moves before they happened and evade them. As the tactician setting all of the soldiers up for the fight, her visions of the future would've granted her great clarity on what plans positions and arrangements would've been most effective for this encounter. Last of all, Serra hooked her up with an extremely potent knock-out drug she coated her knives with, which was what sealed Bane's defeat in the end.

Victorious force: The forces under the Huntress's command were twenty well-trained warriors, whom Bane notes as being smart, and coordinating their efforts very well. In addition, the soldiers were all well armed with stun weaponry, sonic weaponry, flash weaponry, and explosive weaponry. The mercenaries also had a lot of time for preparation and set up at various points in Bane's mansion.

Conclusion: The Huntress had several hours to set up twenty well trained and well armed mercenaries up throughout the mansion, which she was able to do to great extent due to her highly advanced farsight, granting her clairvoyance on what would and wouldn't work for the upcoming fight. Bane then returned to his mansion already very tired, and the Huntress further suppressed his abilities with her advanced force suppression. Bane was then caught off guard as he was completely unprepared and not expecting this attack and was forced into a position right in the middle of the mercenaries. So an already tired completely unprepared Bane who is having his abilities further suppressed by the Huntress is fighting her, and twenty well trained, well armed, expertly prepared, expertly positioned mercenaries with excellent teamwork. It is at this point that the already formidable Huntress, with the aid of her men and her highly advanced precognition is capable of lasting near Bane long enough to administer the toxin. Bane at this point is dealing with several soldiers and the Huntress while not in peak condition with the Huntress suppressing his abilities, and he was on the verge of completely turning the fight around when the drugs in his system took effect and knocked him out.

Here's a new thing I'm trying, which is a one on one defeat rather than a one vs group defeat. I'm going to tackle one that has left Star Wars fans baffled for quite a while now. How the hell was Maul defeated by Obi-wan in TPM?

The Defeated: Darth Maul was a bit too cocky for his own good in that fight. Having just defeated Qui-gon, whom his master stated to be the more powerful of the two, and having treated Kenobi as a non-factor for the previous part of the fight, Maul was almost certainly underestimating Kenobi. And Maul certainly didn't expect anything of Kenobi after he had pushed him into the pit, disarming him and eliminating his weapon from the fight. Through his hubris, Maul overlooked the other weapon in the room.

The Victor: Obi-wan Kenobi is hardly your average Jedi Padawan first of all. He was trained by Qui-gon Jinn, an expert swordsman who held Kenobi at high esteem, and was also on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight. To top this off, Kenobi was empowered by the rage of losing his master, so was pushing himself a lot further than he previously had been.

Sign(s) of the Superiority of the Fallen: After Maul regains his composure after being caught off guard by Kenobi, Maul kicked Kenobi, casually twirled over his blade before exhibiting a taunting pose, and a few seconds later he met Kenobi in a bladelock, overpowering Kenobi and opening him up to either a physical, force, or lightsaber attack, with Maul being perfectly capable of applying any of these to end the fight at that point.

Conclusion: So basically Maul who had just defeated Kenobi's master, who had demonstrated far greater ability than him throughout the fight, was considerably cocky, and underestimating Kenobi. Kenobi however, being an exceptionally skilled padawan and empowered by his rage was capable of catching Maul off guard in the first twenty seconds of their fight, cutting Maul's saberstaff in half. Maul however managed to recover from Kenobi's strike at his weapon and regain his composure in the next seven seconds, managing to turn the fight back in his favor. With his composure regained, he kicked Kenobi, easily dodged his attacks, and overpowered him in a bladelock in the next fifteen seconds, leaving the padawan open to a variety of moves Maul could've used to finish him off. Maul having already bested his opponent thoroughly enough, used the force to throw him into the pit, and discarded Kenobi's weapon, removing it from the fight. Having solidly beat and disarmed Kenobi, Maul no longer considered him a threat, and in his hubris failed to recognize the fact that Jinn's lightsaber was still available for Kenobi to use, and when Kenobi took advantage of this opportunity, Maul was completely unprepared, caught off guard, and lost his legs because of this.

Sidious vs Windu and HoT vs Vitiate should be good ones.

I personally think Vaapad isn't the main reason Palpatine lost. I think it might be a plot to turn Anakin.

And HoT defeating the Emperor was quite interesting. There are a lot of inner and outer dynamics involved here so its a messy one.

Theron Shan vs Dark Council Member Mehkis

Originally posted by Sinious
Sidious vs Windu and HoT vs Vitiate should be good ones.

I personally think Vaapad isn't the main reason Palpatine lost. I think it might be a plot to turn Anakin.

And HoT defeating the Emperor was quite interesting. There are a lot of inner and outer dynamics involved here so its a messy one.
HoT defeating Vitiate wasn't a low end defeat, if Vitiate were at full power, than yes. He wasn't.

As for Palpatine losing to Windu, nothing supports that Palpatine lost on purpose.

Hmm? Let's see, there's plenty of evidence that Vitiate was weakened, yet zero evidence that Palpatine wanted to lose on purpose, including statements in the novel that speaks to the contrary. Palpatine may be stronger than Vitiate even at this point, but that doesn't matter when facing Windu.

The novel doesn't support that Palpatine lost on purpose. It only shows that Palpatine took advantage of his defeat.

" "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?" Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source."

Palpatine couldn't even touch Mace with the Force due to the channel. Palpatine waited for Anakin to come and used it as an opening to kill Windu. Mace saw Anakin as the shatterpoint to end the battle. Palpatine used this chance to try to turn the saber on Mace. Both thought that Anakin would help them, and Anakin decided not to help Mace. That simple.

Freshest Slice, stop talking with him, he'll be deleted soon, and I DO NOT want this thread to turn into a trollfest where you argue back and forth for a troll for ten pages.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Freshest Slice, stop talking with him, he'll be deleted soon, and I DO NOT want this thread to turn into a trollfest where you argue back and forth for a troll for ten pages.
Ah, it's intrepid? I just noticed his responses to LeGenD. My bad.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Freshest Slice, stop talking with him, he'll be deleted soon, and I DO NOT want this thread to turn into a trollfest where you argue back and forth for a troll for ten pages.

Emperor though I know many would say (he was amped derp a herp) could you please make the low end as to why Desann defeated Luke I'd really like to get your perspective on this. Thank You

Time to answer some requests:
As far as Windu vs Sidious goes, pretty much everybody is familiar with the arguments and controversy surrounding this one, and the fight had Sidious annihilating the B-team instantly, so I wouldn't call this one a seemingly low end showing for Sidious as much as a seemingly high end showing for Windu. In any case, this one has been talked to death already.

As far as Vitiate vs HOT goes, it would certainly be a help if most of the fight wasn't gameplay. I'm also very conflicted on the angle I argue Vitiate from. Debating with Carthage gives me a new-found respect for Vitiate, while debating with LeGenD almost completely destroys that respect. Though it may be one I tackle at some point.

As far as Desann vs Luke goes, I'm not very familiar with that series, and even from what I've seen I have no idea how to begin explaining that one.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
As far as Vitiate vs HOT goes, it would certainly be a help if most of the fight wasn't gameplay. I'm also very conflicted on the angle I argue Vitiate from. Debating with Carthage gives me a new-found respect for Vitiate, while debating with LeGenD almost completely destroys that respect. Though it may be one I tackle at some point.
Your assessment of a character shouldn't be distorted by views of any person; if you have sources at your disposal, just use them to formulate your assessment accordingly. I don't get your sensitivity in this matter at all.

Fellow member Carthage have extremely deflated opinion about Emperor Vitiate but this doesn't bothers me at all. My assessment of the said character is based on his official information, nothing else.

This thread is admittedly interesting and you are doing a good job in it; I enjoyed reading your assessments.

If you need input on second confrontation between Emperor Vitiate and Hero of Tython, I will be glad to assist. I have access to the relevant sources and information about this event to facilitate in this matter.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your assessment of a character shouldn't be distorted by views of any member; if you have sources at your disposal, just use them formulate your assessment accordingly. I don't get your sensitivity in this matter at all.
It affects my desire to discuss Vitiate more than anything else.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fellow member Carthage have extremely deflated opinion about Emperor Vitiate but this doesn't bothers me at all.
He has a deflated opinion about pretty much every EU character he hates.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This thread is admittedly interesting and you are doing a good job in it; I enjoyed reading your assessments.
Thank you

Originally posted by Emperordmb
It affects my desire to discuss Vitiate more than anything else.
This is sad, it has never been my intent to disrupt a character's fan-base. I never thought if this was even possible.

I like some characters and my views about them are never distorted by what fellow members think about them. I have confidence in validity of official information and simply use it to express my POV. You may also use this strategy to formulate your assessment of a character.

In-fact, you can benefit from this blog: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/ (I created this blog to provide fan-base of Emperor Vitiate detailed knowledge of the referred character. )

In addition, if you need an input about ground realities of second confrontation between Emperor Vitiate and Hero of Tython, just let me know. I will provide you full information about this event.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He has a deflated opinion about pretty much every EU character he hates.
I figured.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Thank you
Most welcome.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Here's a new thing I'm trying, which is a one on one defeat rather than a one vs group defeat. I'm going to tackle one that has left Star Wars fans baffled for quite a while now. How the hell was Maul defeated by Obi-wan in TPM?

The Defeated: Darth Maul was a bit too cocky for his own good in that fight. Having just defeated Qui-gon, whom his master stated to be the more powerful of the two, and having treated Kenobi as a non-factor for the previous part of the fight, Maul was almost certainly underestimating Kenobi. And Maul certainly didn't expect anything of Kenobi after he had pushed him into the pit, disarming him and eliminating his weapon from the fight. Through his hubris, Maul overlooked the other weapon in the room.

The Victor: Obi-wan Kenobi is hardly your average Jedi Padawan first of all. He was trained by Qui-gon Jinn, an expert swordsman who held Kenobi at high esteem, and was also on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight. To top this off, Kenobi was empowered by the rage of losing his master, so was pushing himself a lot further than he previously had been.

Sign(s) of the Superiority of the Fallen: After Maul regains his composure after being caught off guard by Kenobi, Maul kicked Kenobi, casually twirled over his blade before exhibiting a taunting pose, and a few seconds later he met Kenobi in a bladelock, overpowering Kenobi and opening him up to either a physical, force, or lightsaber attack, with Maul being perfectly capable of applying any of these to end the fight at that point.

Conclusion: So basically Maul who had just defeated Kenobi's master, who had demonstrated far greater ability than him throughout the fight, was considerably cocky, and underestimating Kenobi. Kenobi however, being an exceptionally skilled padawan and empowered by his rage was capable of catching Maul off guard in the first twenty seconds of their fight, cutting Maul's saberstaff in half. Maul however managed to recover from Kenobi's strike at his weapon and regain his composure in the next seven seconds, managing to turn the fight back in his favor. With his composure regained, he kicked Kenobi, easily dodged his attacks, and overpowered him in a bladelock in the next fifteen seconds, leaving the padawan open to a variety of moves Maul could've used to finish him off. Maul having already bested his opponent thoroughly enough, used the force to throw him into the pit, and discarded Kenobi's weapon, removing it from the fight. Having solidly beat and disarmed Kenobi, Maul no longer considered him a threat, and in his hubris failed to recognize the fact that Jinn's lightsaber was still available for Kenobi to use, and when Kenobi took advantage of this opportunity, Maul was completely unprepared, caught off guard, and lost his legs because of this.

Excellent analysis.

I would like to add that dumb luck also played a part for two reasons:

1) The fact that no one thought it would be a good idea to put some railings around that pit. Had there been railings Kenobi wouldn't have fallen in and Maul would presumably have killed him then and there.

2) The fact that Kenobi just so happened to fall close enough to a nozzle to grab onto it.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Hondo says that Dooku cut up some of his men with his lightsaber, meaning that Dooku did indeed reclaim his weapon during that fight.

You mean the scene where a drunken Hondo boasts about him defeating Dooku... Yeah, something tells me he isn't being quite truthful especially since it directly contradicts what we saw earlier in the episode.

I guess these two requests have also been talked about to death, but the sake of completion, could you do:

Obi-Wan vs Anakin (RotS)
Luke vs Vader (RotJ)

Originally posted by red8
I guess these two requests have also been talked about to death, but the sake of completion, could you do:

Obi-Wan vs Anakin (RotS)
Luke vs Vader (RotJ)

In the RotS duel, despite being intimately familiar with one another's fighting styles, Kenobi was still being hammered for the most part because his opponent was faster, stronger, and more powerful. Anakin lost because of his own mental vulnerability and overconfidence, not because of inferior fighting ability.

I don't see how Luke vs Vader was a low end defeat.