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no BFR

Kirby

We've never been able to gauge the power level of The Fulcrum.
Nobody really knows what or who he is.

I don't believe he was explicitly stated to be Kirby. He probably wasn't.
All we know is that he is above even the strongest of Celestials.

Fulcrum wins.

CA supes was a real **** wad.


That being said he was designed with the ability to just....be able to beat anything.

So going with supes here....much to my disdain.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
We've never been able to gauge the power level of The Fulcrum.
Nobody really knows what or who he is.

I don't believe he was explicitly stated to be Kirby. He probably wasn't.
All we know is that he is above even the strongest of Celestials.

He was also stated by Tiamut to be omnipotent and omniscient, and that its essence is what holds reality in its place. Which kind of implies that he's the creator, especially when we know that he existed before the current reality, when he said that he was searching for a companion since the "Big Crunch".

As for the battle, Fulcrum wins.

"Creators" shouldn't have to search for anything. A real "creator" should remain unchanging, and cause big crunches.

CA Supes ftw

CA

Originally posted by LeonBuco666
CA supes was a real **** wad.


That being said he was designed with the ability to just....be able to beat anything.

So going with supes here....much to my disdain. No limits fallacy and relying on hyperbole. Many characters can defeat this version of Superman.

Im not relying on anything shithead.

Anything The Fulcrum throws at him, he can counter.

Same goes for the fulcrum.

I change my mind, stalemate.

It's hard to determine who is stronger since The Fulcrum didn't show any battle feats.

CA Supes wins by default due to his showings.

fulcrum.

Originally posted by Jynocidus

"Creators" shouldn't have to search for anything.

A real "creator" should remain unchanging, and cause big crunches.

... TOAA also does not consider itself "omnipotent or omniscient" or any other said-type terms.
(since it knows it's nothing but a human mind with a role to play like every other drawing)

TOAA's drawings also can never be its equal. (Taimut is as powerful as the Fulcrum) ... "ascension" my ass.

TOAA isn't only directly linked to Celestials, Watchers or the Horde.
TOAA is linked to all Marvel's creations.

The Fulcrum's essence is supposed to hold reality in it's place. According to who? Taimut?
Anyway, ... guess there's a new Galactus in town. (who's existence coincidentally holds reality in place likewise)

The Fulcrum thought/spoke like just another character full of fantasies with no indication of 4th wall sprinkles on it.

Finally, it's name is the "Fulcrum," ... and not TOAA, the Supreme being, or God,
and while that may not explain it all I didn't even see an allusion of a 4th wall story taking place here.

-------------------------------------------------

In a setting that truly includes TOAA,
there would be at the very least hints we are dealing with 4th wall scenarios.

4th wall involved stories are almost comedic, they don't take themselves too seriously,
and there's always dialogue or ridiculous actions that highlight to us we're in a 4th wall book.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
"Creators" shouldn't have to search for anything. A real "creator" should remain unchanging, and cause big crunches.

CA Supes ftw

Creators shouldn't have to search for anything as much as mysteries shouldn't intrigue those "Creators":

http://i.imgur.com/84Il1kz.jpg?1

Big crunch is also a natural process of a universe. So no one should technically cause it. And even then, there's no indication that he specifically didn't cause it to begin with.


Fulcrum stomps, though. Since Thought Robot is nowhere near Supreme being-level.

Originally posted by Mr Master
... TOAA also does not consider itself "omnipotent or omniscient" or any other said-type terms.
(since it knows it's nothing but a human mind with a role to play like every other drawing)


Neither does Fulcrum as far as i recall. But others do consider it omnipotent just like others consider TOAA omnipotent and refer to him as such.

Originally posted by Mr Master

The Fulcrum thought/spoke like just another character full of fantasies with no indication of 4th wall sprinkles on it.


So did TOAA in certain instances.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Finally, it's name is the "Fulcrum," ... and not TOAA, the Supreme being, or God,


Actually, it's the all-high Fulcrum:

http://i.imgur.com/JB6RO89.jpg?1

Originally posted by operator616

Creators shouldn't have to search for anything as much as

mysteries shouldn't intrigue those "Creators":

http://i.imgur.com/84Il1kz.jpg?1
That's because TOAA is based on real human beings.

The artist in your scan hasn't drawn the story yet, which is why it's a mystery to him.

TOAA is not referring to something located somewhere like this Fulcrum is. (heck, TOAA draws the location and item)

TOAA is referring to actual stories that make up comics, histories.

Here's TOAA's "collaborator" (writer obviously) giving him real world ideas to draw in comics:

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/19336867_TOAA1.jpg

Here's the full scan of your linked crop that elaborates on the context:

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/19336869_TOAA2.jpg

The artist (half of TOAA) is explaining how the evolving lives of the FF (stories in comics) intrigues him.

And I agree, since he only draws while the writer thinks up the stories.

-----------------------------------

This is an unquestionable portrayal of real humans (writer/artist) being portrayed as TOAA.
In the same fashion it's not surprising they're limited like real world humans.

But they have no limits when it comes to stories already written that are situated in comics.
They can do whatever they like since it's just ink and paper to them.

So, if Fulcrum is TOAA, then stating Taimut is as powerful as him, has to be taken as a joke: (like She-Hulk killing TOAA)

Which makes the whole story a joke!

Or, the Fulcrum is not TOAA and instead a powerful cosmic that came out of nowhere.
Originally posted by operator616

Neither does Fulcrum as far as i recall. But others do consider it omnipotent just like others consider TOAA omnipotent and refer to him as such.
The Fulcrum supposedly existed before the current universe, and was looking for a companion since the big crunch.

That right there, makes this Fulcrum a character based on absolute fiction.

TOAA, is always portrayed as based on a real human being. (not fiction)
(there's always some indication we're dealing with a 4th wall atmosphere)
Originally posted by operator616

So did TOAA in certain instances.
I've never seen TOAA being portrayed without any indication given to us we're dealing with 4th wall fiascos.
Originally posted by operator616

Actually, it's the all-high Fulcrum:

http://i.imgur.com/JB6RO89.jpg?1
Cool. Still no matter the adjective preceding the title, it's still the "Fulcrum."

Originally posted by LeonBuco666
Im not relying on anything shithead.

Anything The Fulcrum throws at him, he can counter.

Same goes for the fulcrum.

I change my mind, stalemate. That is a no limits fallacy. You not understanding what it means doesn't change the fact.

I don't care for your language here.

Originally posted by LeonBuco666
That being said he was designed with the ability to just....be able to beat anything.


How is that any different to how regular superman is portrayed?

Originally posted by Inhuman
How is that any different to how regular superman is portrayed?

Lol, it isnt haha

CA supes

If we're going by 'comic logic', then Superman is unbeatable.
He will never be TRULY defeated or killed. This is a fact that is undeniable. He is basically DC's (or probably the entire comicdom's) ultimate hero. Yes, his existence in comicdom is even greater than Thor or Batman. And no, I'm not even a fan of Supes.





Anyways, I think the Thought Robot will adapt to The Fulcrum's powers.

Superman's STORY is greater than The Fulcrum, and that is enough to defeat it.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
If we're going by 'comic logic', then Superman is unbeatable.
He will never be TRULY defeated or killed. This is a fact that is undeniable. He is basically DC's (or probably the entire comicdom's) ultimate hero. Yes, his existence in comicdom is even greater than Thor or Batman. And no, I'm not even a fan of Supes.





Anyways, I think the Thought Robot will adapt to The Fulcrum's powers.

Superman's STORY is greater than The Fulcrum, and that is enough to defeat it. Incorrect. He's been beaten many times and has needed help like all heroes. There is nothing different about him from the heroic standpoint from the rest. He usually pulls through in his own comic but has needed aid there as well. He also like most heroes needs to join a team to combat the greater threats.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's because TOAA is based on real human beings.

The artist in your scan hasn't drawn the story yet, which is why it's a mystery to him.

TOAA is not referring to something located somewhere like this Fulcrum is. (heck, TOAA draws the location and item)

TOAA is referring to actual stories that make up comics, histories.

Here's TOAA's "collaborator" (writer obviously) giving him real world ideas to draw in comics:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19336867/TOAA1.jpg.html

Here's the full scan of your linked crop that elaborates on the context:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19336869/TOAA2.jpg.html

The artist (half of TOAA) is explaining how the evolving lives of the FF (stories in comics) intrigues him.

And I agree, since he only draws while the writer thinks up the stories.


I understand. And the same thing applies to Fulcrum as well. But yeah, i was mistaken to compare a depiction of TOAA as a real world person (like FF #511) and a supreme being within the comic book reality (like the Fulcrum). Sp perhaps this one should clarify my point.

Fulcrum "searching" for anything, is similar to TOAA needing Thanos to fix the flaw. Sure it was never stated that he needed Thanos, but one could easily ask why did he give Thanos the HOTI to begin with.

Originally posted by Mr Master

This is an unquestionable portrayal of real humans (writer/artist) being portrayed as TOAA.
In the same fashion it's not surprising they're limited like real world humans.

But they have no limits when it comes to stories already written that are situated in comics.
They can do whatever they like since it's just ink and paper to them.

So, if Fulcrum is TOAA, then stating Taimut is as powerful as him, has to be taken as a joke: (like She-Hulk killing TOAA)

Which makes the whole story a joke!

Or, the Fulcrum is not TOAA and instead a powerful cosmic that came out of nowhere.


And the same thing applies to the Fulcrum. Or do you think that the Fulcrum being called "jack" and it being the master of Celestials (similar to how Jack Kirby actually created the Celestials), and a picture of the Fulcrum being similar to how Kirby looks (the instance where he referred to Tiamut as his equal in power) is all a coincidence?

And you're saying this as if comics haven't depicted characters exceeding the supreme being. Because fact is, they have.
In Supergirl v4, the Carnivore usurped the Presence after blackmailing him (he threatened to kill one of its aspects).
And in Swamp Thing v2, Swamp Thing evolved into a power greater than God.
The titan brothers in the Lucifer series also usurped the Presence.
Etc..

And you yourself think that LT, empowered by TOAA, was determining if he had enough power to take on IG Warlock (something which i disagree with but that's beside the point), so it shouldn't be too hard to accept Tiamut being equal to a supreme being due to retarded writing.

And this is all different from She-Hulk killing John Bryne. That was just pure comedy and not to be taken seriously. throughout the entire She-Hulk run there was 4th wall breaking comedy.

Take for example Sensational She-Hulk #37, where she literally commanded Bryne to draw the background and her apartment back. Which he did. Obviously this is a joke, how can TOAA (the writer) be commanded by a character he's writing/controlling? That's not even mentioning that She-Hulk is not exactly a cosmic level character.
So one can easily differentiate the tone between the Sensational She-Hulk series and the Eternals series to come to the conclusion that the She Hulk shouldn't be taken seriously while the Eternals should.


Originally posted by Mr Master

The Fulcrum supposedly existed before the current universe, and was looking for a companion since the big crunch.

That right there, makes this Fulcrum a character based on absolute fiction.


And there are other implications that he isn't.

Similar to how in other instances, TOAA is a character based on absolute fiction.


Originally posted by Mr Master

I've never seen TOAA being portrayed without any indication given to us we're dealing with 4th wall fiascos.


the Spider-man instance.

Among others. Like the time when TOAA declared that the infinity gems shouldn't be used in unison. There wasn't any indication that he's a real world writer. Well actually there wasn't any indication before FF #511 anyway (sure, there are multiple instances across Marvel titles where real writers manifested in comic books, but they weren't exactly considered TOAA; only after the FF issue were writers and the supreme being, by the name of TOAA, were equated to be the same being.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Cool. Still no matter the adjective preceding the title, it's still the "Fulcrum."

"All high Fulcrum" kind of implies that he is higher than everyone. Similar to how the one above all implies that he is above everyone.

Originally posted by operator616

I understand. And the same thing applies to Fulcrum as well. But yeah, i was mistaken to compare a depiction of TOAA as a real world person (like FF #511) and a supreme being within the comic book reality (like the Fulcrum).

Originally posted by operator616

Fulcrum "searching" for anything, is similar to TOAA needing Thanos to fix the flaw. Sure it was never stated that he needed Thanos, but one could easily ask why did he give Thanos the HOTI to begin with.
TOAA did not appear in Marvel the End though opr.
Also, HOTI couldn't fix the flaw but we all know HOTI isn't literally TOAA. (HOTI is not the writers/artists)

Also, they gave Thanos HOTI so we can enjoy a good story. (but HOTI is really ink on paper to TOAA)
Originally posted by operator616

And the same thing applies to the Fulcrum. Or do you think that the Fulcrum being called "jack" and it being the master of Celestials (similar to how Jack Kirby actually created the Celestials), and a picture of the Fulcrum being similar to how Kirby looks (the instance where he referred to Tiamut as his equal in power) is all a coincidence?
No. I believe it's a powerful cosmic directly related to Celestials/Watchers/Horde,
with a Kibiesk feel to the look of the character to pay homage/tribute to Kirby. (creator of Celestials etc)

Yet, while it is a powerful cosmic, imo, it is not TOAA. At-least not based on the evidence I've seen so far.
Originally posted by operator616

And you're saying this as if comics haven't depicted characters exceeding the supreme being. Because fact is, they have.
In Supergirl v4, the Carnivore usurped the Presence after blackmailing him (he threatened to kill one of its aspects).
And in Swamp Thing v2, Swamp Thing evolved into a power greater than God.
The titan brothers in the Lucifer series also usurped the Presence.
Etc..
I don't do (or acknowledge) DC.
Originally posted by operator616

And you yourself think that LT, empowered by TOAA, was determining if he had enough power to take on IG Warlock (something which i disagree with but that's beside the point), so it shouldn't be too hard to accept Tiamut being equal to a supreme being due to retarded writing.
LT was more powerful than the IG.

LT having to determine that, is Starlin giving us reference to how powerful the IG was.
But the IG is nothing but paper and ink to TOAA. (LT empowered is only significant within the confines of TOAA's canvas)
So, when I see TOAA being taken advantage of by their artwork, it's not to be taken seriously.
(or classic She-Hulk > LT + omniverse)

Otherwise, if it's a serious setting, then imo it's not TOAA.
Originally posted by operator616

And this is all different from She-Hulk killing John Bryne. That was just pure comedy and not to be taken seriously. throughout the entire She-Hulk run there was 4th wall breaking comedy.
Take for example Sensational She-Hulk #37, where she literally commanded Bryne to draw the background and her apartment back. Which he did. Obviously this is a joke, how can TOAA (the writer) be commanded by a character he's writing/controlling? That's not even mentioning that She-Hulk is not exactly a cosmic level character.
So one can easily differentiate the tone between the Sensational She-Hulk series and the Eternals series to come to the conclusion that the She Hulk shouldn't be taken seriously while the Eternals should.
Exactly my point.

Obviously this is a joke, how can TOAA (the writer) be equalled by a character he's writing/controlling?

So, we agree.
Originally posted by operator616

And there are other implications that he isn't.

Similar to how in other instances, TOAA is a character based on absolute fiction.
I respectfully disagree.
Originally posted by operator616

the Spider-man instance.
I remember.

I know that issue well. There's at-least 4 separate instances where clearly it's TOAA (writer) portrayed as the bum.

Context of the story makes this evident.

---------------------------------------------------

Here,
Peter asks TOAA to Re-Write his history, so that uncle Ben, Gwen, her father,
Harry and even aunt May, (who was now in a coma dying) could all live.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16159450_TOAA1.jpg

TOAA looks at Peter with impossibility in its eyes.

Why? Because this isn't changing the context of a single story, withIN a single book,
this would involve over 50 years of print and 1000s of Spidey books in real life
that would have to be wished away, and well, in the real world, that's impossible.

---------------------------------------------------

Here, TOAA actually refers to a real life comic run that involved Spidey many times:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16159452_TOAA2.jpg

TOAA: "Thousands of people you saved"
Peter: "Thousands? Really?"
TOAA: Well, I'm counting Team-Ups, but yeah."

(Marvel Team-Up - about 150 issues published between 72' & 85')

---------------------------------------------------

TOAA relates to Peter's humanity,
since this is a representation of this comic's writer:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/759204_OA3.jpg

"We all have a purpose Peter, we all have a role to play"

...........................................................................

In the end, it's quite obvious this is the Writer that manifested himself on panel.

TOAA tells us he's gonna write for Peter a happy ending in this story:

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t/19371470_TOAA6.jpghttp://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t/19371472_TOAA7.jpg
Originally posted by operator616

Among others. Like the time when TOAA declared that the infinity gems shouldn't be used in unison. There wasn't any indication that he's a real world writer.
There wasn't any indication of anything since he never actually appeared on panel.
Originally posted by operator616

Well actually there wasn't any indication before FF #511 anyway (sure, there are multiple instances across Marvel titles where real writers manifested in comic books, but they weren't exactly considered TOAA; only after the FF issue were writers and the supreme being, by the name of TOAA, were equated to be the same being.
Cool trivia for those who didn't know.
Originally posted by operator616

"All high Fulcrum" kind of implies that he is higher than everyone.

Similar to how the one above all implies that he is above everyone.
Ok, I disagree. Furthermore sometimes the "One Above All" means above a particular group:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/19371550_SIo67.jpg

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Superman's STORY is greater than The Fulcrum, and that is enough to defeat it.
IIRC, Fulcrum's story was supposed to be a biblical analogue, and if you've read Morrison's Superman Beyond issues and compare it to Gaiman's work in general, you'll see that the latter is arguably better in terms of quality.