Sith and Jedi Most Responsible for the Great Jedi Purge

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Emperordmb
Who were the three Sith and three Jedi most responsible for the Great Jedi Purge and why?

(Anakin's betrayal doesn't count as Jedi)

Selenial
Bane, Plageuis, Dooku.

Yoda, (I know sad ) Windu, Shaak Ti.

Selenial
Reasonings (I forgot)

Created the rule of two. Created the plan. Coerced the republic into making more troops.

Didn't see it coming, (TCW), Was too focused on Palps and not Anakin. Let Anakin leave the temple to follow Windu.

Yep, the entire thing was Shaak Ti's fault XD

ares834
Originally posted by Selenial
Bane, Plageuis, Dooku.

confused

So the guy who ended up setting it all into motion isn't the most responsible?

Lord Lucien
Sidious was just a "meh" in the scheme things, then?

Emperordmb
Sith
Darth Bane-expertly deceived the Jedi into thinking the Sith were dead so they could prosper in secret hidden from the Jedi, created the Order of the Sith Lords, created the Rule of Two, and laid the groundwork for the Grand Plan and the Sith power base.

Darth Plagueis-finished the Grand Plan with Sidious, finished building the Sith power base, planted the idea for a clone army in Sifo-Dyas's head, and helped get Sidious elected as chancellor.

Darth Sidious-finished and executed the Grand Plan as chancellor, then emperor.


Jedi
Yoda-he made some very stupid decisions as Grand Master, and if he ha decided differently, may have stopped or lessened the Purge. The Jedi were privy to much evidence near the end of the war pointing at the Sith scheme to destroy them an its nature, evidence which Yoda failed to look into or blatantly chose to ignore. He also failed to take full advantage of a few opportunities to learn Sidious's identity. This is all topped off by Yoda learning the Jedi are all going to die, and just let's it happen.

Sifo-Dyas-the dude placed the order for the clone army.

Vallenthyne Farfalla-Johun Othone provided evidence that some Sith survived the thought bomb from the beginning, and despite it being perfectly reasonable that not all Sith were in the caves, Farfalla dismisses it with the old Jedi excuse of, "you're just being emotional." Then when he runs off with a strike team to take on Bane, he doesn't even warn the Council.

Q99
What did Shaak Ti do exactly?

On the Jedi side, Windu being an ass to Anakin certainly didn't help.

Emperordmb
Eh. Had Yoda listened to Windu at one point they may have discovered Sidious's identity before Order 66.

Selenial
Originally posted by Q99
What did Shaak Ti do exactly?

On the Jedi side, Windu being an ass to Anakin certainly didn't help.

She let Anakin leave for the Chancellors office despite strict instructions from Windu that no one leaves.

Selenial
Originally posted by ares834
confused

So the guy who ended up setting it all into motion isn't the most responsible?

It was Plageuis' scheme, Palpatine just happened to be the one who made it. Dooku was more important, without his loyalty Palp's would have been ****ed.

Nephthys
Tenebrous?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Selenial
It was Plageuis' scheme, Palpatine just happened to be the one who made it. Dooku was more important, without his loyalty Palp's would have been ****ed.

erm

Plagueis was inextricably linked to the creation of the clone army, but it was Palpatine who devised the scheme to turn the Republic against the Jedi and foment civil war. And per Darth Maul: Lockdown, Plagueis was only aware of the broad developments of Palpatine's scheme to topple the Republic. Essentially, Palpatine largely designed the plan and did most of the leg work; Plagueis oversaw the creation of the clone army and used his political capital to advance Sidious's designs.

And how much of that is even the case is up in the air since Plagueis is n-canon.

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
erm

Plagueis was inextricably linked to the creation of the clone army, but it was Palpatine who devised the scheme to turn the Republic against the Jedi and foment civil war. And per Darth Maul: Lockdown, Plagueis was only aware of the broad developments of Palpatine's scheme to topple the Republic. Essentially, Palpatine largely designed the plan and did most of the leg work; Plagueis oversaw the creation of the clone army and used his political capital to advance Sidious's designs.


thumb up

Yes, Palpatine's genius is what made the plan work out so perfectly. What he did through TPM to ROTS was the most essential part of the sith grand plan.

Kalen Sykes
Originally posted by Selenial
She let Anakin leave for the Chancellors office despite strict instructions from Windu that no one leaves.


True, but do you really think she could've stopped him? Anakin and Mace were the most powerful Jedi on Coruscant, and Shaak Ti wasn't even part of the team sent to arrest Palpatine.

Selenial
Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
True, but do you really think she could've stopped him? Anakin and Mace were the most powerful Jedi on Coruscant, and Shaak Ti wasn't even part of the team sent to arrest Palpatine.

Yes, I think she could have.

He wouldn't have attacked her, he wasn't unstable until he realised Windu was going to kill palpatine. She also had other Jedi around who would have helped her, the Temple guards etc.

She was also only left behind because they needed a Council member in the temple in case they failed, and Ti was easily the best leader out of the other 3.

She was a better duelist than Kolar, Tin and Fisto.

Selenial
Originally posted by The_Tempest
erm

Plagueis was inextricably linked to the creation of the clone army, but it was Palpatine who devised the scheme to turn the Republic against the Jedi and foment civil war. And per Darth Maul: Lockdown, Plagueis was only aware of the broad developments of Palpatine's scheme to topple the Republic. Essentially, Palpatine largely designed the plan and did most of the leg work; Plagueis oversaw the creation of the clone army and used his political capital to advance Sidious's designs.

And how much of that is even the case is up in the air since Plagueis is n-canon.

Perhaps. But again, Plageuis got Palpatine into power, and Dooku elevated him.

It was a toss up between Dooku and Palpatine for me, but Dooku was the one who got Palpatine the Emergency powers, Dooku was the one who put pressure on the Republic to do everything Palpatine wanted. Dooku's armies were the ones who cut down some of the Jedi's finest warriors and stretched them thinly across the Galaxy in order to make them easier targets.

Palpatine was crucial, but it was more the position of any Sith, Plageuis could have got anyone to that position, but no one would have replaced Plageuis' genius, and no one could have been as charismatic and effective as Dooku was at rounding the seperatists.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Selenial
Perhaps. But again, Plageuis got Palpatine into power, and Dooku elevated him.

It was a toss up between Dooku and Palpatine for me, but Dooku was the one who got Palpatine the Emergency powers, Dooku was the one who put pressure on the Republic to do everything Palpatine wanted. Dooku's armies were the ones who cut down some of the Jedi's finest warriors and stretched them thinly across the Galaxy in order to make them easier targets.

Palpatine was crucial, but it was more the position of any Sith, Plageuis could have got anyone to that position, but no one would have replaced Plageuis' genius, and no one could have been as charismatic and effective as Dooku was at rounding the seperatists.

The problem is that Dooku didn't act independently, he acted under Darth Sidious's orders. Moreover, while Dooku was the public face of the Separatist cause, it was Sidious who orchestrated the development of the CIS from behind the scenes and through intermediaries. Dooku definitely deserves credit for pulling his weight, but Sidious was the one pulling the strings and doling out marching orders.

Selenial
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is that Dooku didn't act independently, he acted under Darth Sidious's orders. Moreover, while Dooku was the public face of the Separatist cause, it was Sidious who orchestrated the development of the CIS from behind the scenes and through intermediaries. Dooku definitely deserves credit for pulling his weight, but Sidious was the one pulling the strings and doling out marching orders.

Perhaps, but this is an opinion based topic.

The_Tempest
Well sure, but I don't understand giving the lion's share of credit to the errand boy than he who was giving the orders and designing the plans.

Selenial
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well sure, but I don't understand giving the lion's share of credit to the errand boy than he who was giving the orders and designing the plans.

Again, Palpatine wasn't That Important.

If it was top 4, then yeh he'd be on there. If that's any consolation.

Besides, Dooku could have enacted the great Jedi Purge himself, with the Seperatist army, given the way that the Banking clan and other financiers were operating.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Selenial
Again, Palpatine wasn't That Important.

If it was top 4, then yeh he'd be on there. If that's any consolation.

ermm

We've established that Sidious was the one giving Dooku orders and masterminded the establishment of Dooku's power base, of which Dooku was merely the figure head (hence why Grievous and the Separatist Council are taking orders from Sidious ultimately post-Dooku). I don't see a more important position than that.

Originally posted by Selenial
Besides, Dooku could have enacted the great Jedi Purge himself, with the Seperatist army, given the way that the Banking clan and other financiers were operating.

The success of the Great Jedi Purge owed more to the surprise of Order 66; the droids were the known threat, so I'm not sure how it would have been as effective.

Kalen Sykes
Originally posted by Selenial
Yes, I think she could have.

He wouldn't have attacked her, he wasn't unstable until he realised Windu was going to kill palpatine. She also had other Jedi around who would have helped her, the Temple guards etc.

She was also only left behind because they needed a Council member in the temple in case they failed, and Ti was easily the best leader out of the other 3.

She was a better duelist than Kolar, Tin and Fisto.


I think you're overestimating Shaak Ti, a little. Where is it stated she was a better duelist than Tiin, Fisto, and Kolar? In the novelization, Fisto wishes Yoda or Kenobi were going to confront the Chancellor, with him. Noone makes any mention of Shaak Ti needing to be there. Plus, Mace makes a reference to Agen Kolar, feeling confident that He and Windu alone could handle a Sith threat to Coruscant. I'm not saying Shaak Ti isn't skilled, but even Windu didn't consider her a necessity for the strike team.

As far as Anakin, he was clearly becoming unhinged as he was waiting in the temple. The movie also shows him going over what Palpatine said to him, as well as remembering his premonition about Padme. Shaak Ti wouldn't have been able to keep him in the temple.

Fated Xtasy
I feel like the good Count is a little underrated in this regard. I mean he was the first and only prominent and most respected Jedi master of the PT Order that left the order, he was cunning and wise. I mean he trained and created TWO of the most fierce lightsaber duellists of his era(Ventress & Grievous) both of which killed many Jedi that weakened the order.

I also feel like Maul played a part as well as he was the first Sith to reveal himself in years and took out Jinn as well.

Also we gotta give credit to Jango, I mean his feat of taking down those Jedi is one of the many reasons Dooku left, not to mention he agreed to be cloned. The guy deserves some credit imo

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I feel like the good Count is a little underrated in this regard. I mean he was the first and only prominent and most respected Jedi master of the PT Order that left the order, he was cunning and wise. I mean he trained and created TWO of the most fierce lightsaber duellists of his era(Ventress & Grievous) both of which killed many Jedi that weakened the order.

I also feel like Maul played a part as well as he was the first Sith to reveal himself in years and took out Jinn as well.

Also we gotta give credit to Jango, I mean his feat of taking down those Jedi is one of the many reasons Dooku left, not to mention he agreed to be cloned. The guy deserves some credit imo
They all deserve credit, but neither of them are top 3 Jedi/Sith material. If it was top five, Dooku would probably be on there, Maul's role doesn't quite compare to that of the masterminds, and Jango isn't a Jedi or Sith.

DarthAnt66
Sith: Darth Bane, Darth Plagueis, Darth Sidious
Jedi: Yoda, Anakin Skywalker, Sifo Dias

S_W_LeGenD
Logically, the entire Jedi Order; it had become so much accustomed to peace and lack of prepardness during the span of peace for a millennia that it grew out of touch of its old ways of vigilance and preparedness. Republic itself began to rot and descend in to corruption. Sith took advantage of these developments.

Emperordmb
Some members of the Order were a whole hell of a lot more responsible than others.

Sinious
I honestly don't understand how anyone could say Sidious isn't in top3 on causing the jedi purge. He is undoubtably the person most responsible for it.

The_Tempest
Yeah, Palpatine inarguably bears the greatest responsibility for the purge. But setting that aside, Sidious is without question the most important Sith Lord in galactic history. Plagueis, Bane, Viti, and Krayt round out the top 5. Dooku, Revan, Kun, Ragnos, and Sadow wrap up the top 10.

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, Palpatine inarguably bears the greatest responsibility for the purge. But setting that aside, Sidious is without question the most important Sith Lord in galactic history. Plagueis, Bane, Viti, and Krayt round out the top 5. Dooku, Revan, Kun, Ragnos, and Sadow wrap up the top 10.

I knew you would make this a Vittysiddy thing.

But I agree with you. Sidious' actions were the most critical ones as a sith in the galactic history. I wouldn't put Plagueis on no.2 though. Seems unfair to those who directly effected the galaxy.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
I knew you would make this a Vittysiddy thing.

But I agree with you. Sidious' actions were the most critical ones as a sith in the galactic history. I wouldn't put Plagueis on no.2 though. Seems unfair to those who directly effected the galaxy.

The others aren't ranked in order and I didn't turn it into a Vittysiddy thing unless you mean the indirect conclusion that Sidious is more important than Viti, which wasn't the point of the message, but is painfully obvious to anyone but LeGenD.

S_W_LeGenD
Importance of a Sith Lord is subjective matter. Darth Sidious is one of the prime figures of the mythos so he gets most spotlight accordingly. Undoubtedly he proved to one of the most cunning and accomplished Sith Lords of the mythos, perhaps the most in the matter of galactic conquest but his dynamics were different from those who attempted to do so in external fashion.

However, if galactic history is considered, Darth Krayt also achieved great success under right circumstances.

Emperor Vitiate ensured greatest progress of Sith ideals even though his ultimate plan was to eat the galaxy to become unstoppable. However, reconstituted ancient Sith made great progress in all aspects of Sith ideals covering Sith alchemy, Sith sorcery, understanding of the Dark Side of the Force and technological matters under leadership of Emperor Vitiate. Emperor Vitiate produced the highest quality Empire in the context of Sith ideals in galactic history at-least, first Sith superpower in true sense as well. He also orchestrated wars that nearly devastated the Republic and resulted in first known great purge of the Jedi Order in history.

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah, Palpatine inarguably bears the greatest responsibility for the purge. But setting that aside, Sidious is without question the most important Sith Lord in galactic history. Plagueis, Bane, Viti, and Krayt round out the top 5. Dooku, Revan, Kun, Ragnos, and Sadow wrap up the top 10.

I'd remove Dooku and Ragnos and put Ajunta Pall and Darth Ruin in their places.

The_Tempest
I'd need a brush up on Pall and Ruin beyond the soundbytes.

Dooku played a pretty crucial role in Palpatine's endgame, which is extremely significant. And Ragnos anointed Viti, led the Sith through a century of prominence, mediated Sadow vs. Kressh, and anointed Kun. That's a pretty impressive Man Behind The Man CV. He's no Sidious, but...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Importance of a Sith Lord is subjective matter. Darth Sidious is one of the prime figures of the mythos so he gets most spotlight accordingly. Undoubtedly he proved to one of the most cunning and accomplished Sith Lords of the mythos, perhaps the most in the matter of galactic conquest but his dynamics were different from those who attempted to do so in external fashion.

However, if galactic history is considered, Darth Krayt also achieved great success under right circumstances.

Emperor Vitiate ensured greatest progress of Sith ideals even though his ultimate plan was to eat the galaxy to become unstoppable. However, reconstituted ancient Sith made great progress in all aspects of Sith ideals ranging from Sith alchemy, Sith sorcery, understanding of the Force and technological matters under leadership of Emperor Vitiate. He produced the highest quality Empire in the context of Sith ideals in galactic history at-least. He also orchestrated wars that nearly devastated the Republic and resulted in first known great purge of the Jedi Order in history.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/2144244/blofeld-cat-chair-o.gif

Predictable.

Anyway, you're wrong. Sidious is more important than Viti.

http://i.imgur.com/fU9jYP0.png

S_W_LeGenD
If that makes you happy. smile

The_Tempest
It makes everyone happy but you, my son. Which only makes the rest of us happier.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It makes everyone happy but you, my son. Which only makes the rest of us happier.
You will be surprised but Darth Sidious is one of my favorite characters of the mythos.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You will be surprised but Darth Sidious is one of my favorite characters of the mythos.

I'm not surprised that you claim that.

Bottom line is, though, that Sidious is significantly more accomplished than Viti and had a fraction of the time to achieve anything of merit. Pound-for-pound, Viti is about as lame as it gets when you consider the length of his reign, but in terms of total achievements, he's still higher than most.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not surprised that you claim that.

Bottom line is, though, that Sidious is significantly more accomplished than Viti and had a fraction of the time to achieve anything of merit. Pound-for-pound, Viti is about as lame as it gets when you consider the length of his reign, but in terms of total achievements, he's still higher than most.
Its not a claim, OT era and Darth Sidious represent one of my favorite aspects of Star Wars.

Well, I don't blame Emperor Vitiate for that. He was disadvantaged in the context of availability of resources to him. He had to hide from the Republic and make do with whatever limited resources he had at his disposal in the outer-rim. Even with such limitations, he accomplished a lot.

Palpatine, on the other hand, rose to prominence within the Republic itself and had tremendous resources of the Republic at this disposal to accomplish his grand plan.

The_Tempest
Viti had the remnants of the Sith empire to play with, a bazillion trained Force users under his command, and a thousand years to build up a galaxywide army and navy.

Palpatine, hamstrung by political limitations as a Senator and Supreme Chancellor, built up two galaxywide armies and navies in ~10 years with the aid of exactly three Force users. no expression

Viti accomplished a lot, but against Sidious...? This is essentially a dark retelling of the tortoise and the hare... except the tortoise loses in the end. erm

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Viti had the remnants of the Sith empire to play with, a bazillion trained Force users under his command, and a thousand years to build up a galaxywide army and navy.

Palpatine, hamstrung by political limitations as a Senator and Supreme Chancellor, built up two galaxywide armies and navies in ~10 years with the aid of exactly three Force users. no expression

Viti accomplished a lot, but against Sidious...? This is essentially a dark retelling of the tortoise and the hare... except the tortoise loses in the end. erm
Ancient Sith Empire was utterly destroyed in the Great Hyperspace War, thanks to rivalry between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh. The survivors were on the run from the Republic forces and Jedi because they were being targeted for elimination.

Emperor Vitiate began with (very) limited resources to reconstitute the ancient Sith Empire, he was forced to spend 20 years in space alone to escape the wrath of the Republic and Jedi and look for a suitable location to lay foundations of a new Sith Empire. Emperor Vitiate didn't had bazillion trained Force-users under his command in the beginning. He almost started from scratch. Given his circumstances, his accomplishments are nothing short of amazing.

The_Tempest
20 years off 1400 isn't a lot, my son. Your false god has yet to earn my sympathy; Darth Sidious scoffs at his grotesque failures. uhuh

Yeah, I realize he didn't have a bazillion trained Force users at the beginning of his scheme, but he had the time to cultivate them and still failed.

His political accomplishments are embarrassing next to Sidious when you consider the hilariously vast time disparity.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The_Tempest
20 years off 1400 isn't a lot, my son. Your false god has yet to earn my sympathy; Darth Sidious scoffs at his grotesque failures. uhuh

Yeah, I realize he didn't have a bazillion trained Force users at the beginning of his scheme, but he had the time to cultivate them and still failed.

His political accomplishments are embarrassing next to Sidious when you consider the hilariously vast time disparity.
Major difference is that Emperor Vitiate had (very) limited resources at his disposal to start an Empire, he did not had vast resources of the Republic at his command like Darth Sidious.

If Emperor Vitiate had vast resources of the Republic at his command then your comparison would have been valid but this isn't the case.

Maybe this analogy might explain the difference:-

- Individual (A) had resources of an entire country at his disposal to further his agenda.

- Individual (B) had been cast out from a country and had to begin from scratch in an Island.

In this comparison, it is obvious that Individual (B) would not get close to Individual (A) in matter of accomplishments even with lot more time.

Therefore, I don't find the comparison valid. IMO, both are highly accomplished Sith Lords in galactic history in their own respective ways.

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The others aren't ranked in order and I didn't turn it into a Vittysiddy thing unless you mean the indirect conclusion that Sidious is more important than Viti, which wasn't the point of the message, but is painfully obvious to anyone but LeGenD.

I was just joking.

Though I agree with Legend that Vitiate's era is the peak of sith. Palpatine's reign dominated the galaxy like no other sith but he did so by reconstructing the republic instead of creating a traditional sith empire. This isn't his fault and it doesn't reduce his value but its a fact. It wasn't the site's golden era but his. Darth Bane's philosophy is a good one but it derogated the order.

Before Vitiate, the sith empires were korriban centered and war based cultures that were only there to cause trouble to republic. They were like the bad boys of the galaxy where Vitiate's empire made the sith an alternate state for the galaxy with an efficient intelligence and sophisticated state structure. Palpatine's empire is like the improved and bigger version of it yet it is the galactic empire with 2 sith in it where the older one had thousands of sith. So sith wise, Vitiate's era is better.

Sinious
Originally posted by Sinious
I was just joking.

Though I agree with Legend that Vitiate's era is the peak of sith. Palpatine's reign dominated the galaxy like no other sith but he did so by reconstructing the republic instead of creating a traditional sith empire. This isn't his fault and it doesn't reduce his value but its a fact. It wasn't the sith's golden era but his. Darth Bane's philosophy is a good one but it derogated the order.

Before Vitiate, the sith empires were korriban centered and war based cultures that were only there to cause trouble to republic. They were like the bad boys of the galaxy where Vitiate's empire made the sith an alternate state for the galaxy with an efficient intelligence and sophisticated state structure. Palpatine's empire is like the improved and bigger version of it yet it is the galactic empire with 2 sith in it where the older one had thousands of sith. So sith wise, Vitiate's era is better.

oops quoted instead of edit

Ace Hambone
Jedi:

1) Sifo-Dyas. The Purge wouldn't have been possible without the clones and Order 66, and S-D was the knucklehead who let himself get tricked into ordering the clones and allowing the 66 chip to be inserted.

2) Mace Windu. If he hadn't been such a dick to Anakin, the attempt to arrest Palpatine might have been successful. (Although I would wager Palps had a contingency plan for that, so it might not have mattered.)

3) Qui-Gonn Jin. He was responsible for Anakin becoming a Jedi, which Palpatine used a linchpin for his plan.

But 2 caveats. First, Palpatine could have had a different plan without Anakin. Second, Qui Gonn was also the Jedi most responsible for the redemption of the Jedi, so he's got that going for him!

Sith:
I will defer to the many of you here who are more versed in EU Sith lore than I.

Emperordmb
PLEASE RETURN THE CONVERSATIONS TO THE ACTUAL TOPIC AT HAND

Vitiate has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, and I do not want this thread turned into another 50 page pissing contest between LeGenD, and some other guy saying Vitiate is not the best. Therefore I'm asking you guys to end this conversation on this particular topic. No LeGenD, this is nothing personal or an attack on you, I merely want the discussion on this thread to return to the intended topic, which does not include Vitiate. If you wish to continue this discussion, I'd advise you to make another thread for it. But do not continue it here.

Sinious
It wasn't really a debate though a good subject came out of it. I will actually make a thread for this.

And for your topic, again, Sidious is undoubtedly the most responsible person here. Bane's effect was super indirect but still important so I would have him up there too.

Kalen Sykes
Jedi: Farfalla, Sifo-Dyas, Yoda

Sith: Bane, Sidious, Vader shifty

Q99
Originally posted by Selenial
She let Anakin leave for the Chancellors office despite strict instructions from Windu that no one leaves.


Still, if Windu trusted Anakin as Ti did, then Anakin would've likely sided with Windu. No purge then.



Originally posted by Selenial
Yes, I think she could have.

He wouldn't have attacked her, he wasn't unstable until he realised Windu was going to kill palpatine. She also had other Jedi around who would have helped her, the Temple guards etc.

She was also only left behind because they needed a Council member in the temple in case they failed, and Ti was easily the best leader out of the other 3.

She was a better duelist than Kolar, Tin and Fisto.

Indeed, it wouldn't have been too hard to keep Anakin there with words. Shaak just trusted Anakin too much.

Or heck, even better? "I'll come with you, Anakin."

Selenial
Originally posted by Q99
Still, if Windu trusted Anakin as Ti did, then Anakin would've likely sided with Windu. No purge then.


Indeed, it wouldn't have been too hard to keep Anakin there with words. Shaak just trusted Anakin too much.

Or heck, even better? "I'll come with you, Anakin."

I already put Windu on the list for his foolishness regarding Anakin.

But I doubt Ti could have stopped Anakin from killing Windu if she'd gone with him, she would have passively tried to stop him, got punted, or jumped in the way of Sidious' lightning and get destroyed.

Her staying in the temple was wise, without her, the entire Jedi order would have fallen that day, not most of it.

Salthasha
None of the above, it was that idiot Jar Jar Binks with the deciding vote that did it.

red8
The Jedi Purge and the rise of the Empire are two different but intertwined events. The Grand Plan consisted of wiping out the Jedi and taking over the Galaxy. Because this is purely about the Jedi Purge, I would say that Bane or Vitiate should not be on anyone's list since they had nothing to do with it.

Sith

1. Sidious

This was ultimately his plan. Plagueis did convince Sifo-Dyas to create a clone army, but Sidious was the one who convinced Plageuis that the army should be used by the Republic and the Jedi rather than against them. He was the one who started the Jedi purge by commanding Vader to storm the Jedi temple and commanding the clones to execute Order 66.

2. Vader

Shortly after Anakin killed Mace Windu, Vader stormed the Jedi Temple with the 501 legion and slaughtered countless Jedi. He then spent many years hunting down and killing Jedi.

3. Dooku

Without the Clone Wars, Order 66 may not have been possible. The CIS were like the Communists to the US during the Cold War or how the terrorists are to the US today. Palpatine needed a bad guy that everyone could point at so that he could justify destroying liberty and democracy in the name of security. The CIS was an artificial terror used to spread fear, doubt, and uncertainty. The creation of a galactic army and the use of the clones would not have been possible without the threat that the CIS imposed upon the Republic and the Jedi. TPM showed that the Trade Federation alone was not competent enough to lead an army against the Republic. The CIS needed Dooku.

Jedi


1. Yoda

Against his own judgment, Yoda allowed Kenobi to train Anakin.

Yoda failed to kill Dooku twice. The first failure allowed the Clone Wars to take place. Yoda and the Jedi council found out that Dooku was the one who chose Jango Fett to be the clone template, but (to the best of our knowledge) did not try to act on this information.

The RotS novel states that the Jedi Order grew stagnant while the Sith kept up with the times and changed their ways. Yoda, being 1000 years old and the grandmaster of the Order, could be held responsible for this.

While perhaps not entirely his fault, many of the villains during the Clone Wars are all former Jedi. Barriss Offee, Aurra Sing, Asajj Ventress, Darth Vader, Count Dooku were all once Jedi. Barriss and Dooku in particular both grew disillusioned with the Republic.

If the Jedi had taken a stronger stand against the corruption in the Republic, perhaps Barriss and Dooku would not have betrayed/left the Jedi Order. Perhaps Ahsoka would not have left either.

Asajj, Aurra, and Anakin were all unfortunate cases of not having enough proper guidance. If Anakin felt more comfortable about talking about his relationship with Padme, perhaps the Jedi could have made an exception for him. The scene in RotS where Anakin tries to hint to Yoda that something is going on and Yoda being completely oblivious comes to mind.

Anyways, Jedi Order was doing something wrong and Yoda has quite a bit to take responsibility for.

2. Anakin (sorry, but screw the first post)

Anakin was still a Jedi when he killed Mace Windu. Anakin killing Windu gave Palpatine the whole assassination and "the Jedi are taking over" excuse. This allowed Palpatine to execute Order 66. Anakin also enabled Vader to storm the Jedi Temple and hunt Jedi for decades.


3. Sifo-Dyas

Was convinced by Darth Plagueis to commission the creation of the Clone Army in secret.

Emperordmb
Interesting, I did say in the OP that Anakin's betrayal doesn't count for Jedi though.

NewGuy01
Isn't Sifo Dyas being manipulated by Plagueis retconned by TCW?

red8
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Interesting, I did say in the OP that Anakin's betrayal doesn't count for Jedi though.

I put in parenthesis sorry, but screw the first post. big grin

But even at that point, he wasn't truly a Sith until he knelt before Sidious and accepted his offer.

red8
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Isn't Sifo Dyas being manipulated by Plagueis retconned by TCW?

I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Here is the order of the events:

Sifo Dyas commissioned the creation of the Clone Army with funding from Plagueis.
Dooku left the Jedi Order and fell to the Dark Side.
Dooku hired the Pykes to shoot down and kill Sifo Dyas.
Dooku then took control of the project.
Dooku hired Jango Fett to be the template.

*Ten years later (or whatever they said in AotC)*

Kenobi goes to Kamino and discovers the clones
Yoda takes control of them and brings some to Geonossis (or however you spell it)
The Republic instates a galactic army and uses the clones as their soldiers

SIDIOUS 66
I didn't open this thread at first because I thought it was going to be another thread about how stupid Yoda was, which I absolutely disagree with (Sure, Yoda was blind and could have handled certain situations better as the grand master, but I don't think he was in any way responsible. Just was put on the spot and had too much faith in a prophecy), and didn't feel like getting into a long debate about it, not any time too soon anyway. But I had absolutely no idea people were going to try to diminish Palpatine's role in it. lol

Emperordmb
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But I had absolutely no idea people were going to try to diminish Palpatine's role in it. lol
I can assure you that was not my intent in creating this thread. I gave Sidious a spot on my list.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I can assure you that was not my intent in creating this thread. I gave Sidious a spot on my list.

You're a bit too flowery in your praise of Bane for my taste, son. You quietly imply that Bane's efforts were more important than those of his successor, which is simply unacceptable.

His Imperial Majesty will graciously allow you to recant.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're a bit too flowery in your praise of Bane for my taste, son. You quietly imply that Bane's efforts were more important than those of his successor, which is simply unacceptable.

His Imperial Majesty will graciously allow you to recant.
When did I imply that? Before you say the ordering of them, I ordered the Sith chronologically (The Jedi however were ordered as I came up with them since I had to think a bit about which Jedi to put). And if you suggest it was the length of my reasoning for each of them, I simply felt I had to defend my placement of Bane, and that I didn't need to go in depth on Sidious because his responsibility for the Purge is rather obvious.

Sinious
Everything Vader has done should be considered as Palpatine's success. Vader was a puppet in this plot where Sidious organized everything which also assures Sidious' no.1 spot on this list.

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