H/P Doomsday, Pre-Crisis Solomon Grundy, & Pre-Crisis Validus vs Gorr, WBH, & Odin

operator616

Well, id like one person in this thread to give an actual valid reason as to why Validus takes on Odin, much less the whole team. Go ahead.

Originally posted by deathslash
pc superman, mon el, and ultra-boy are all solidly in the trans teir and validus was treating all of them like they were weak feebs (not to mention all of the other LoSH members that attacked him).

And that's supposed to somehow put him above Odin? Odin can handle SA Superboy, Mon-El and Ultra-Boy easily. Just an FYI

Funny you should mention that. Here's Superboy/Mon-el/Ultra-Boy KOing Validus in Superboy #231 though:

http://i.imgur.com/cefOwS8.jpg?1

Same comic Colossal Boy was doing fine against Validus. And he's not on Superboy's level.

And btw, that's the bronze age, in which Superboy/Superman were depowered. Superman was officially depowered in Superman #242 (along with multiple letter's pages establishing that). Superboy was unofficially depowered. Since if you read his comics, you'll notice there's a large gap between his SA and BA feats. And the BA has much more low showings. And Mon-el and Ultra-Boy were always on his level (Validus was actually stated to be 12 times stronger than SA Superboy, which is very impressive but....one's gotta consider all showings).

Inertron has contained Validus.

The Sun Eater (the one from Adventure Comics #353) who is below Odin's level, was stated to dwarf the Legion + Fatal Five (including Validus). And they had to amp themselves to actually face it.

Hell, Shadow Lass iirc managed to use pressure points on Validus in one of the early Legion v2 issues.

Saturn Girl managed to manipulate his psychic attacks (which is the only thing he has besides strength....not much to go against Odin)

Validus is also below Darkseid (and im not talking about the amped GDS version, im talking about regular; and regular Darkseid pre-crisis was not on Odin's level either)

So based on all of that, im supposed to believe that Validus is in any way comparable to Odin? Why would one think that Validus can solo a team of Gorr, Odin and WBH Hulk (who's the only one i can certainly say gets defeated by Validus) is beyond me.

LordofBrooklyn

The combination of speed and power that Validus displayed in dispatching trans tier/low Skyfather characters justifies the opinion.

Straight up of Odin engages Validus the way he did Mangog he gets savaged. In the context of the team battle, Validus easily solos Gorr and WBH.

There is a bit of hyperbole and humor but in the end...

Venne Vetti VALIDUS

Stoic

Originally posted by deathslash
pc superman, mon el, and ultra-boy are all solidly in the trans teir and validus was treating all of them like they were weak feebs (not to mention all of the other LoSH members that attacked him).

When did Validus defy a time stop? How does he resist a mind that was able to battle Galactus' mind in a TP battle? What does he do when Odin amps up to levels beyond what he can handle, and then becomes a 1000ft tall giant that stomps the mess out of him? Odin solos.

operator616

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
The combination of speed and power that Validus displayed in dispatching trans tier/low Skyfather characters justifies the opinion.

Straight up of Odin engages Validus the way he did Mangog he gets savaged. In the context of the team battle, Validus easily solos Gorr and WBH.

There is a bit of hyperbole and humor but in the end...

Venne Vetti VALIDUS

Validus has never won against skyfather beings. Ultra Boy, Mon-El and Superboy were Trans level in SA only. And even then, it was more like low trans or mid at best. Not sure how's that supposed to be comparable to Odin in any way though.

But yeah, let's look at how Validus compares to Skyfather characters shall we? smile

Sun Eater is not even Skyfather. It's a Trans-level character, who destroys galaxies by gradually destroying the stars (not instantly) and it was literally stated to be billions of times more powerful than the Legion + Fatal Five (including Validus):

http://i.imgur.com/1ni5jon.jpg?1

And as confirmed when they had to amp themselves to face it.

Darkseid, is another Trans-level character, and he created and can uncreate Validus easily. Darkseid creating Validus in LOSH v2 annual #3:

http://i.imgur.com/2rKay5g.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/t7YFUKS.jpg

Darkseid uncreating Validus easily in LOSH v3 annual #2

http://i.imgur.com/P0GOMyU.jpg

And please don't go around referencing GDS Darkseid, because that was an amped up version. Pre-

Btw, Odin has defeated Mangog on several occassions. Though he's different from Validus, since Odin can't cut him from his power source as he did Mangog. Doesn't change the fact that Odin can outright stomp him.

2 examples where Trans-level (or let's even say skyfather in Sun Eater's case) where Validus is easily shown to be far below them. So why should we presume that Validus isn't inferior to Odin? Especially when he has no showings to support the fact that he can take on someone like Odin?

Just because it's a "Pre-Crisis" character doesn't grant him the auto-win.

Prof. T.C McAbe

Validus is a better Mangog, why did Odin always flee from Mangog or needed help?

Stoic

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Validus is a better Mangog, why did Odin always flee from Mangog or needed help?

What makes you believe that Pre Crisis Val is more powerful than silver age Mangog in the first place? What if just one of his billion billion beings were as strong as the Thing alone? He'd be a pretty powerful guy right?

Prof. T.C McAbe

Originally posted by Stoic
What makes you believe that Pre Crisis Val is more powerful than silver age Mangog in the first place? What if just one of his billion billion beings were as strong as the Thing alone? He'd be a pretty powerful guy right?

Answering a question with a question?

Mangog is a brute. Val is a brute. Odin didn't use time stop or other means. Easy.

Stoic

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Answering a question with a question?

Mangog is a brute. Val is a brute. Odin didn't use time stop or other means. Easy.

Just because he didn't use it doesn't mean that he can't. I fully agree that just because Pre Crisis mentioned doesn't mean auto win. Odin has so many powers that he would easily defeat any of the guys on team one.

deathslash

Ok, first thing's first, I never said that I think validus can solo. Someone asked Reflash why he thought validus can solo and I answered the question for him. The next thing I know, half the people here are jump down my throat and trying to rip out my vocal cords for poluting the thread with such nonsense.

LordofBrooklyn

Originally posted by operator616
Validus has never won against skyfather beings. Ultra Boy, Mon-El and Superboy were Trans level in SA only. And even then, it was more like low trans or mid at best. Not sure how's that supposed to be comparable to Odin in any way though.

But yeah, let's look at how Validus compares to Skyfather characters shall we? smile

operator616

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Validus is a better Mangog, why did Odin always flee from Mangog or needed help?
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Mangog is a brute. Val is a brute. Odin didn't use time stop or other means. Easy.

Except for the fact that Odin did defeat Mangog (Classic) on more than one occasion? With one move no less.

In Thor #157 he cuts Mangog from his power source instantly, by freeing the entire race which was within him:

http://i.imgur.com/1oMZYuy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0FkO11U.jpg

And in Thor #198 he does the same thing (cuts Mangog from his power source). And that was done while Mangog was in possession of the Odinsword, which at that time period was confirmed to be able to destroy the whole universe:

http://i.imgur.com/8ewWmkQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mPl1Txb.jpg

Lowballing Odin through classic Mangog though?

Because you must realize, that's the same Mangog who was confirmed to be a greater threat than Ego. Same Ego, who at that time period, was stalemating Galactus in Thor #160-161, and actually proved to be more powerful than big G in Thor #226.

Although, saying "Validus is better than Mangog" doesn't seem like a valid reason. Id like to hear an actual explanation to support that point.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
If you use examples outside of PC that invalidates the parameters of the thread.

Given the DC side I would presume this is more akin to a physical battle rather than allowing Odin all of his abilities. Even if the skyfather can bring everything to bare, how are his battles with Mangog irrelevant?

Odin has the advantage given all his abilities but he is certaintly not dispatching of Validus with ease.

The only one which is post-crisis is the one where Darkseid un-creates Validus. And i posted it because the crisis had no effect on the Legion continuity. It wasn't until Zero Hour 1994 (although there were some changes prior too but that's besides the point).

So PC Validus = Pre-Zero Hour Validus.

But even if you're not going to accept that. That instance was posted only to reconfirm the LOSH annual v2 #3 scan (pre-crisis). Where Darkseid creates Validus, proving that he's more powerful than him, and that story is followed in LOSH annual v3 #2 where Darkseid uncreates him. So even if you're not going to accept the scan it changes absolutely nothing.

And my first example is from Adventure Comics #353, 1967. Pre-Crisis.

So we should presume that Odin is not allowed to use all of his abilities only because you say so? Never mind the fact that the OP mentioned nothing of the sort?

It's irrelevant since Validus is not more powerful than Mangog (as i already responded above, and i can offer other reasons if you want). And because Odin already owned classic Mangog 2 times.

So we agree that Odin should win against Validus? So why were you saying that Validus solos then?

Stoic

h1a8

Originally posted by Stoic
What makes you believe that Pre Crisis Val is more powerful than silver age Mangog in the first place? What if just one of his billion billion beings were as strong as the Thing alone? He'd be a pretty powerful guy right?
Post Crisis Superman has feats beyond a billion billion Things.
If each Thing can press 100 tons. Then a billion billion 100 tons would be 10^20 tons. The Earth weighs more than that.

Mangog is actually weaker than most of the strongest high herald level beings.
1. He hits Mjolnir back EQUAL to Thor's own power
2. He fails to ko Thor after many hits.
3. He has no feats or showings of strength that shows he is more than 2x as strong as Thor.
4. He is very durable, much more durable in proportion to his strength.

h1a8

Without any form of BFR or time manipulation, Then HP DD would beat Odin easily.
Odin's blasts would hardly do anything to DD while DD would become more resistant to them and tear Odin to pieces in a matter of moments.

Pre-Crisis Validus was vastly stronger than Superboy, who we all know what he's capable of. Only WBH has shown strength that can compare.

Branlor Swift

Originally posted by operator616
Except for the fact that Odin did defeat Mangog (Classic) on more than one occasion? With one move no less.

In Thor #157 he cuts Mangog from his power source instantly, by freeing the entire race which was within him:

http://i.imgur.com/1oMZYuy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0FkO11U.jpg

And in Thor #198 he does the same thing (cuts Mangog from his power source). And that was done while Mangog was in possession of the Odinsword, which at that time period was confirmed to be able to destroy the whole universe:

http://i.imgur.com/8ewWmkQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mPl1Txb.jpg

Lowballing Odin through classic Mangog though?

Because you must realize, that's the same Mangog who was confirmed to be a greater threat than Ego. Same Ego, who at that time period, was stalemating Galactus in Thor #160-161, and actually proved to be more powerful than big G in Thor #226.

Although, saying "Validus is better than Mangog" doesn't seem like a valid reason. Id like to hear an actual explanation to support that point.

The only one which is post-crisis is the one where Darkseid un-creates Validus. And i posted it because the crisis had no effect on the Legion continuity. It wasn't until Zero Hour 1994 (although there were some changes prior too but that's besides the point).

So PC Validus = Pre-Zero Hour Validus.

But even if you're not going to accept that. That instance was posted only to reconfirm the LOSH annual v2 #3 scan (pre-crisis). Where Darkseid creates Validus, proving that he's more powerful than him, and that story is followed in LOSH annual v3 #2 where Darkseid uncreates him. So even if you're not going to accept the scan it changes absolutely nothing.

And my first example is from Adventure Comics #353, 1967. Pre-Crisis.

So we should presume that Odin is not allowed to use all of his abilities only because you say so? Never mind the fact that the OP mentioned nothing of the sort?

It's irrelevant since Validus is not more powerful than Mangog (as i already responded above, and i can offer other reasons if you want). And because Odin already owned classic Mangog 2 times.

So we agree that Odin should win against Validus? So why were you saying that Validus solos then?

You're not factoring in that Mangog is shorter than Validus and therefore weaker! Also those were PC characters! PC!
It's like you don't even read comics.

Although I find this interesting in the midst of a series where Odin tore a universe from Yggdrasil but he was never Pre Crisis so he can't stack up. Also just randomly throwing around Mangog lowers Odin's value as opposed to just putting Mangog's power in perspective. Because Mangog sucked I guess. As proven by randomly saying his name.

Also I'm guessing h1 is lowballing Mangog. Yup. This should be interesting.

Prof. T.C McAbe

Originally posted by operator616
Except for the fact that Odin did defeat Mangog (Classic) on more than one occasion? With one move no less.

In Thor #157 he cuts Mangog from his power source instantly, by freeing the entire race which was within him:

http://i.imgur.com/1oMZYuy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0FkO11U.jpg

And in Thor #198 he does the same thing (cuts Mangog from his power source). And that was done while Mangog was in possession of the Odinsword, which at that time period was confirmed to be able to destroy the whole universe:

http://i.imgur.com/8ewWmkQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mPl1Txb.jpg

Lowballing Odin through classic Mangog though?

Because you must realize, that's the same Mangog who was confirmed to be a greater threat than Ego. Same Ego, who at that time period, was stalemating Galactus in Thor #160-161, and actually proved to be more powerful than big G in Thor #226.

Although, saying "Validus is better than Mangog" doesn't seem like a valid reason. Id like to hear an actual explanation to support that point.

The only one which is post-crisis is the one where Darkseid un-creates Validus. And i posted it because the crisis had no effect on the Legion continuity. It wasn't until Zero Hour 1994 (although there were some changes prior too but that's besides the point).

So PC Validus = Pre-Zero Hour Validus.

But even if you're not going to accept that. That instance was posted only to reconfirm the LOSH annual v2 #3 scan (pre-crisis). Where Darkseid creates Validus, proving that he's more powerful than him, and that story is followed in LOSH annual v3 #2 where Darkseid uncreates him. So even if you're not going to accept the scan it changes absolutely nothing.

And my first example is from Adventure Comics #353, 1967. Pre-Crisis.

So we should presume that Odin is not allowed to use all of his abilities only because you say so? Never mind the fact that the OP mentioned nothing of the sort?

It's irrelevant since Validus is not more powerful than Mangog (as i already responded above, and i can offer other reasons if you want). And because Odin already owned classic Mangog 2 times.

So we agree that Odin should win against Validus? So why were you saying that Validus solos then?

No Odin would lose against Val. Yes Odin defeated Mangog by cutting his source, something he can't do to Val. This was his onyl chance and he couldn't use anything else because Mangog was physically superior to him. He wasn't able to use time stop or anything else, only this "exploit". He doesn't have this luxury against Val.
Mangog is the hate of a billion billion beings, which is strong, stronger than Thor or Odin but still below the strength of PC beings that can pull a Galaxy worth of Planets and thus were treated like Children by Val.

PC Darkseid was above Odin. As simple as that. So this point is moot. Odin can use his abilitis but they won't work on a superior opponent as he has shown when he had to use the only exploit against Mangog while against other opponents inferior to mangog he fought, Thanos for example. It's out of character to use time stop for Odin, but even if he tries he might fail because he almost never uses it against opponents like Mangog or inferior opponents like Thanos.
So he will blast, try to tp and headbutt. And this is where he will fail.

Simple.

So we know.

Val is stronger than Mangog.
PC Darkseid is superior to Odin.

Odin can't reverse Val, won't use time stop (or it will fail) and stick to headbutts, blasts and physical means.

operator616

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
No Odin would lose against Val. Yes Odin defeated Mangog by cutting his source, something he can't do to Val. This was his onyl chance and he couldn't use anything else because Mangog was physically superior to him. He wasn't able to use time stop or anything else, only this "exploit". He doesn't have this luxury against Val.

That doesn't mean he can't overpower Validus. Sun Eater is below Odin, and he's billions of times more powerful than Validus apparently. Same goes to Darkseid. And the fact that Validus has nowhere near the feats to compete with Odin.

Why would Odin use a time stop when he can cut him from his power source instantly?

Though you ignored the part where Mangog was > Ego (who was at Galactus' level back then). Can't see why.

Not to mention he ripped the chalice from Orikal in Thor v2. Same Orilak, who previously in Thor #138-139, was shown to be superior to Odin.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Mangog is the hate of a billion billion beings, which is strong, stronger than Thor or Odin but still below the strength of PC beings that can pull a Galaxy worth of Planets and thus were treated like Children by Val

laughing out loud

So let's consider this ridiculously high end feat of Superboy's, and pass it off as his average, right?

Ok. Let's look at other showings though.

Here's Superman using all his strength to move a single planet in Superman v1 #66 (which was the pre-crisis time period where his feats started to manifest, and obviously he's equal to SA Superboy since he's the same being):

http://i.imgur.com/nmtyEKi.jpg?1

"with all the power of his being..."

Here's the same thing happening in Superman v1 #72.

http://i.imgur.com/SQaXZ2q.jpg

"using his muscles to the utmost"

Same thing in Superman v1 #220:

http://i.imgur.com/vOP1Crg.jpg

He was continuously pushing against the Earth with all his strength.

And all those scans are pre-depowerment.

That's enough for this part. So you really think pulling a galaxy worth of planets is some sort of average showing?

Unto the 2nd part though. Superboy's title where he moved those planets. Let's see the other side of showings.

Same Superboy couldn't penetrate a random ship protected by a forcefield though (in Superboy #167).

Same Superboy who got owned by Persuader (who's a high herald, low trans if you want to stretch it) in Superboy #198

Same Superboy who got owned by a goddamn fish monster in Superboy #202

Same Superboy who was inferior to Mighto in strength (who iirc needed some sort of chemical device to blow up the Earth).

Same Superboy who gets overpowered by Ultra-Boy in #205.

Same Superboy who gets owned by Star Boy merged with a phantom in #215.

Etc...

Btw, Superboy is also susceptible to anyone who can mentally control matter (Mind over Matter). Jonathan disguised as Mental emperor was completely immune to his powers in Superboy #111.

Anyway, now that we've established the PC character's average.

You also ignored this part though:

--------------------------------------

Here's Superboy/Mon-el/Ultra-Boy KOing Validus in Superboy #231 though:

http://i.imgur.com/cefOwS8.jpg?1

Same comic Colossal Boy was doing fine against Validus. And he's not on Superboy's level.

--------------------------------------

As for Mon-El and Ultra-Boy (the two other legionnaires who are on Superboy's level, although Ultra-Boy has a disadvantage that he can only use one power at a time), they get KOed by a negasphere that was going to destroy the Earth alone in Superboy #244:

http://i.imgur.com/CbkPSJZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fr0T7sl.jpg

So you'll have to forgive me when Validus handling Mon-El, Validus, and Superboy, one at a time is not on Odin's level.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

PC Darkseid was above Odin. As simple as that. So this point is moot. Odin can use his abilitis but they won't work on a superior opponent as he has shown when he had to use the only exploit against Mangog while against other opponents inferior to mangog he fought, Thanos for example. It's out of character to use time stop for Odin, but even if he tries he might fail because he almost never uses it against opponents like Mangog or inferior opponents like Thanos.
So he will blast, try to tp and headbutt. And this is where he will fail.

"As simple as that". Your reasoning is pretty convincing.

PC Darkseid is above Odin though? And what possible showings does he have that puts him anywhere near Odin? BFRing Infinity Man (a trans level character) and sealing him in another dimension? Because that's the best feat Darkseid has pre crisis wise.

Talk about telepathy though. Let's see a direct comparison between them. The whole point of New Gods v1 (at least the first part of it) and Forever People v1 was Darkseid coming to Earth to seek the ALE from the minds of Earth's people (same story was featured in post-crisis comics too btw). Which he did after great effort (and not through mindraping everyone, he actually used machines to do that, to extract the ALE) Odin on the other hand, has literally mindraped all of the people on Earth instantly. Multiple times at that. Here's one example from JIM #104:

http://i.imgur.com/zZV1EDS.jpg

PC Darkseid with the full power of the ALE (which was confirmed to grant him universal level power) was literally defeated by an extremely weakened Highfather (who was near powerless since he was cut from the source in New Gods v1 #19) and Orion then rebounded only to get vaporized by Dessad's cannon. in Adventure Comics #460

http://i.imgur.com/3l8qRbG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CUJrvjW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ARjVYt5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DcsQfnM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Bfft3dH.jpg

He then resurfaced in a JLA arc, and got owned pretty badly by Firestorm.

Id have to recheck the Hunger Dogs, but from what i remember Darkseid was implied not to be able to survive planetary destruction in that comic.

With that saide...Hmm....do you see any advantage which PC Darkseid has over Odin? Because i sure don't.

It's your turn now to make an argument why PC Darkseid is superior to Odin.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Simple.

So we know.

Val is stronger than Mangog.
PC Darkseid is superior to Odin.

Odin can't reverse Val, won't use time stop (or it will fail) and stick to headbutts, blasts and physical means.

Yeah. By ignoring what Mangog was supposed to represent, and by applying the highest of high showings to superboy (and applying them to Ultra-Boy and Mon-el in turn) then saying those are the same beings who've been handled by Validus. Even though the exact same opposite happened as well.

And ignoring the fact that those 3 never operated on this level on average. Especially Ultra-Boy.

I explained all this in detail but this is the summary of it.

And you've given literally no reason at all why Darkseid is superior than Odin other than you simply think so. Evidence shows otherwise though.

operator616

Prof. T.C McAbe

^Operator, so you are twisting facts again. First you take a early Superman and compare his "low" feats to another character "Superboy" to lowball and disqualify the Galaxy feat? Compare Superman blowing a Galaxy away and you have the PC Average. Show m the scan after the attack of the 3 too see if Val is defeated, I can't trust you.

PC Highfather like PC Darkseid is more powerful than Odin.

So we have still Mangog, whome odin won't face directly because he is afraid and uses a weakness exploit, who has billion billion beings strength against someone who stomps beings that have still the strength to move a galaxy worth of planets.

Try agin. I will look at the rest of you twisted post later.^^

DarkSaint85

PC Supes ain't all that.

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/comicsalliance.com/files/2012/03/lois01-1332488985.jpg

iceman24567

Team 2 mostly because of Odins versatility

Newjak

I would think Gorr's weapon could prove dangerous in this battle.

operator616

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
^Operator, so you are twisting facts again. First you take a early Superman and compare his "low" feats to another character "Superboy" to lowball and disqualify the Galaxy feat?

What? you do know that pre-Crisis Superboy and Superman are the same character, right? Superboy is just young Superman. That's basic stuff anyone should know.

In case you try some other twisted excuse, let's just end it here. In Superboy v1 #47, Superman and Superboy meet and they are regarded as equals:

http://i.imgur.com/uoAl1wc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yIhg9i0.jpg

There's more proof if you want.

Im not trying to disqualify anything. Im saying that it's not his average, which is definitely true. Anyone who actually reads pre-crisis comics would know this.

Also, i wasn't even using just Superman, i also referenced some of Superboy's showings, in his own title (his galaxy worth of planets pushing feat happened in Superboy #140, and i referenced scenes from that same title to help you understand that it's not his average).

But i can understand why you ignored that. You have no counter, so you resort to saying that im twisting shit.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Compare Superman blowing a Galaxy away and you have the PC Average.

Talk about twisting things.

You realize that Superman blew a solar system not a galaxy in Superman #218 right? Big difference, cause there's billions of solar systems inside a single galaxy.

Yeah, reference 2 high showings and you have the average.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Show m the scan after the attack of the 3 too see if Val is defeated, I can't trust you.

Im curious as to what exactly made you distrust me. Cause from where i stand, you refuted absolutely nothing. Nothing at all.

And do you really think i would give issue # if i was deliberately misinterpreting the scene??

But sure thing, here's the two consecutive scans. In the 2nd one we see Validus contained in Inertron:

http://i.imgur.com/PWswJR6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EO52CFr.jpg

Go check the comic yourself if you want. It's from Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes #231.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

PC Highfather like PC Darkseid is more powerful than Odin.

Except for the 2 little details you missed.

1) Darkseid had the ALE with him which is said to be able to crush the cosmos

2) Highfather was nearly powerless since he was cut off from the source in New Gods #19.

I already mentioned that and you keep ignoring it.

And i already said why Darkseid is well below Odin, and asked you to provide your own reasons, and i got nothing as expected. So basically your argument is baseless.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
So we have still Mangog, whome odin won't face directly because he is afraid and uses a weakness exploit, who has billion billion beings strength against someone who stomps beings that have still the strength to move a galaxy worth of planets.

It's not weakness exploitation. Odin was the one who created Mangog to begin with. Just like he created him, he can un-create him by freeing the race.

Ultra-Boy, Mon-El nor Superboy can do this sort of feat on average. Reading comics will help you understand that.

h1a8

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You're not factoring in that Mangog is shorter than Validus and therefore weaker! Also those were PC characters! PC!
It's like you don't even read comics.

Although I find this interesting in the midst of a series where Odin tore a universe from Yggdrasil but he was never Pre Crisis so he can't stack up. Also just randomly throwing around Mangog lowers Odin's value as opposed to just putting Mangog's power in perspective. Because Mangog sucked I guess. As proven by randomly saying his name.

Also I'm guessing h1 is lowballing Mangog. Yup. This should be interesting.

Mangog is weaker because he is shown to be. Thor takes many blows without being koed, hit's Mjolnir back EQUAL to the strength of Thor, etc. Comics>>>>>>>>>>>opinions.
Mangog has no feats to show that he has uber strength (beyond 2x that of Thor), not one. There is no lowballing going on when I will accept his highest strength feat as the basis of his strength in a forum match. So that's that.

Odin tearing a universe in half? Scans.

LordofBrooklyn

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
PC Supes ain't all that.

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/comicsalliance.com/files/2012/03/lois01-1332488985.jpg

THE HOUSE OF EL DOES NOT FIND THIS AMUSING!

LordofBrooklyn

Originally posted by operator616
Yeah, laughing out loud

Hilarious stuff.

Lets forget the hilarity and deal with the canon.

It will be easier to take this approach.

What in your opinion is Superboy's average level of power?

What multiple of power is Validus operating at in reference to Superboy?

We can proceed from there.

quanchi112

So let's consider this ridiculously high end feat of Superboy's, and pass it off as his average, right?

Ok. Let's look at other showings though.

Here's Superman using all his strength to move a single planet in Superman v1 #66 (which was the pre-crisis time period where his feats started to manifest, and obviously he's equal to SA Superboy since he's the same being):

http://i.imgur.com/nmtyEKi.jpg?1

"with all the power of his being..."

Here's the same thing happening in Superman v1 #72.

http://i.imgur.com/SQaXZ2q.jpg

"using his muscles to the utmost"

Same thing in Superman v1 #220:

http://i.imgur.com/vOP1Crg.jpg

He was continuously pushing against the Earth with all his strength.

And all those scans are pre-depowerment.

That's enough for this part. So you really think pulling a galaxy worth of planets is some sort of average showing?

Unto the 2nd part though. Superboy's title where he moved those planets. Let's see the other side of showings.

Same Superboy couldn't penetrate a random ship protected by a forcefield though (in Superboy #167).

Same Superboy who got owned by Persuader (who's a high herald, low trans if you want to stretch it) in Superboy #198

Same Superboy who got owned by a goddamn fish monster in Superboy #202

Same Superboy who was inferior to Mighto in strength (who iirc needed some sort of chemical device to blow up the Earth).

Same Superboy who gets overpowered by Ultra-Boy in #205.

Same Superboy who gets owned by Star Boy merged with a phantom in #215.

Etc...

Btw, Superboy is also susceptible to anyone who can mentally control matter (Mind over Matter). Jonathan disguised as Mental emperor was completely immune to his powers in Superboy #111.

Anyway, now that we've established the PC character's average.

You also ignored this part though:

--------------------------------------

Here's Superboy/Mon-el/Ultra-Boy KOing Validus in Superboy #231 though:

http://i.imgur.com/cefOwS8.jpg?1

Same comic Colossal Boy was doing fine against Validus. And he's not on Superboy's level.

--------------------------------------

As for Mon-El and Ultra-Boy (the two other legionnaires who are on Superboy's level, although Ultra-Boy has a disadvantage that he can only use one power at a time), they get KOed by a negasphere that was going to destroy the Earth alone in Superboy #244:

http://i.imgur.com/CbkPSJZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fr0T7sl.jpg

So you'll have to forgive me when Validus handling Mon-El, Validus, and Superboy, one at a time is not on Odin's level.

"As simple as that". Your reasoning is pretty convincing.

PC Darkseid is above Odin though? And what possible showings does he have that puts him anywhere near Odin? BFRing Infinity Man (a trans level character) and sealing him in another dimension? Because that's the best feat Darkseid has pre crisis wise.

Talk about telepathy though. Let's see a direct comparison between them. The whole point of New Gods v1 (at least the first part of it) and Forever People v1 was Darkseid coming to Earth to seek the ALE from the minds of Earth's people (same story was featured in post-crisis comics too btw). Which he did after great effort (and not through mindraping everyone, he actually used machines to do that, to extract the ALE) Odin on the other hand, has literally mindraped all of the people on Earth instantly. Multiple times at that. Here's one example from JIM #104:

http://i.imgur.com/zZV1EDS.jpg

PC Darkseid with the full power of the ALE (which was confirmed to grant him universal level power) was literally defeated by an extremely weakened Highfather (who was near powerless since he was cut from the source in New Gods v1 #19) and Orion then rebounded only to get vaporized by Dessad's cannon. in Adventure Comics #460

http://i.imgur.com/3l8qRbG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CUJrvjW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ARjVYt5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DcsQfnM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Bfft3dH.jpg

He then resurfaced in a JLA arc, and got owned pretty badly by Firestorm.

Id have to recheck the Hunger Dogs, but from what i remember Darkseid was implied not to be able to survive planetary destruction in that comic.

With that saide...Hmm....do you see any advantage which PC Darkseid has over Odin? Because i sure don't.

It's your turn now to make an argument why PC Darkseid is superior to Odin.

Yeah. By ignoring what Mangog was supposed to represent, and by applying the highest of high showings to superboy (and applying them to Ultra-Boy and Mon-el in turn) then saying those are the same beings who've been handled by Validus. Even though the exact same opposite happened as well.

And ignoring the fact that those 3 never operated on this level on average. Especially Ultra-Boy.

I explained all this in detail but this is the summary of it.

And you've given literally no reason at all why Darkseid is superior than Odin other than you simply think so. Evidence shows otherwise though. I saved this post for later use. God bless you.

smile

the Darkone

SA Odin >/= PC Darkseid>> PC Vaildus.

PC Darkseid did devolve PC Vaidus, and anybody that knows comics believes that SA Odin and PC Darkseid as peers well above PC Vaildus

carver9

Operator is in here destroying. He is literally one of the only individuals on this site that I take the time to read his long posts. Keep it going operator. By the way, team 2 stomps.

Galan007

without even skimming through operator's posts i can tell you, with confidence, that team 2 wins. smile

LordofBrooklyn

Originally posted by carver9
Operator is in here destroying. He is literally one of the only individuals on this site that I take the time to read his long posts. Keep it going operator. By the way, team 2 stomps.

BAH!

The Operator has failed to answer my challenge.

You have lowered yourself with this posting. In fact, you've gone from a Carver state to a PRE- Carver state.

I would tell you to get Carver Prime but I doubt you can rise to that level anymore!

Branlor Swift

Originally posted by operator616
Yeah, laughing out loud

Hilarious stuff.

Let's also not forget that Mangog forcibly ripped the chalice from Orikal in thor v2. And that was the same Orikal who was shown to be superior to Odin in Thor #138-139 (His power literally allowed the trolls to nullify Odin's power, draining his sceptre, nullified his enchantment on the hammer, etc..). And even before that story Odin had feats like drawing the electro magnetic particles of all the universe (in JiM #99), and was shown to be superior to Surtur who was stated to be a galaxy buster (in JiM #104).

Along with Mangog a greater threat than Ego supposedly.

So im not even sure what's the problem with Mangog giving Odin any sort of trouble.

I mean, Odin does have low showings; but referencing Mangog as a low showing? .... Yeah, I've actually posted the scans of Mangog ripping him apart easily before, but I don't think I've ever seen scans of Orikal's power on the forums, so...

Overpowers Mjolnir's enchantment:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor138-13.jpg

Rocks Odin:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor138-17.jpg

Odin grows weary from said battle:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor139-05.jpg

Drains his sceptre:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor139-06.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor139-07.jpg

Creates a duplicate Mjolnir:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor139-08.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor139-13.jpg

Though I think your description is underselling it. Mangog shreds Orikal like a tin can.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_vol2-522-020-20.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_vol2-522-020-21.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor/Thor_vol2-522-020-22.jpg

But Mangog is a huge pussy because... ________ and Odin losing to him (and winning also) is a big black mark on Odin's history. Also Pre Crisis.

Rage.Of.Olympus

It's not conclusive or anything but I always thought this scene gave a good idea of where Mangog was intended to be power wise when Thor considers who could be capable of what Infinity is doing (Loki too, but whatever, he uses less direct methods):
http://s10.postimg.org/9y5l3psmt/Thor_184_04.jpg http://s10.postimg.org/87mk28b3p/Thor_184_05.jpg http://s10.postimg.org/z6qexdxkl/Thor_184_06.jpghttp://s16.postimg.org/mkrb0hfgx/Thor_184_07.jpg

Originally posted by h1a8
Mangog is weaker because he is shown to be. Thor takes many blows without being koed, hit's Mjolnir back EQUAL to the strength of Thor, etc. Comics>>>>>>>>>>>opinions.
Mangog has no feats to show that he has uber strength (beyond 2x that of Thor), not one. There is no lowballing going on when I will accept his highest strength feat as the basis of his strength in a forum match. So that's that.

Odin tearing a universe in half? Scans.

Yeah, that Thor guy is a real weakling, never capable of going above and beyond. Especially under Lee/Kirby.

erm

abhilegend

Too much Odin wanking here. First thing first, I'm not saying Validus wins against Odin. In a physical confrontation though? He would beat the shit out of Mangog and Odin together.

Originally posted by operator616
Validus has never won against skyfather beings. Ultra Boy, Mon-El and Superboy were Trans level in SA only. And even then, it was more like low trans or mid at best. Not sure how's that supposed to be comparable to Odin in any way though.

But yeah, let's look at how Validus compares to Skyfather characters shall we? smile

Sun Eater is not even Skyfather. It's a Trans-level character, who destroys galaxies by gradually destroying the stars (not instantly) and it was literally stated to be billions of times more powerful than the Legion + Fatal Five (including Validus):

http://i.imgur.com/1ni5jon.jpg?1 WTF kind of logic is that? Mangog hasn't even destroyed a planet let alone stated to be able to destroy galaxies. He isn't even 10 times as strong as Thor going by their showings and you're wanking the shit out of him like he's an abstarct or something. Yet being billions of times stronger than entire LOSH and fatal Five means Sun eater is just trans? But I like how you consider being stronger than LOSH and Fatal Five means you're just trans. A billion times stronger than post-crisis Superman would make you nigh-abstract, let alone pre-crisis Superboy. Just look at H/P Doomsday. But since Thor was stated to be stronger than Odin and actually overpowered him in strength in Thor 291, I'd reconsider that. Just recently Odin pounded on him in Fear Itself and Thor wasn't even KOED. But we would forget that and pretend that Odin is somehow billions of times stronger than PC Superboy. Hilarious.

Taking a cue from yourself, here is Darkseid compared to Time-Trapper and Infinite Man.

http://i.imgur.com/kBrv0P4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yCFz4yb.jpg

So, everyone in DC is trans according to you?

That's why Mangog oneshotted him?

If someone like Mangog can do that? Why not?

It doesn't makes lowballing them excusable too.

celeyhyga17

Originally posted by Galan007
without even skimming through operator's posts i can tell you, with confidence, that team 2 wins. smile

kgkg

Why are we assuming this is H2H?

abhilegend

Originally posted by operator616
That doesn't mean he can't overpower Validus. Sun Eater is below Odin, and he's billions of times more powerful than Validus apparently. Same goes to Darkseid. And the fact that Validus has nowhere near the feats to compete with Odin. How is being billions of times more powerful than LOSH+Fatal Five is supposed to be below Odin level? Odin isn't that much powerful comapred to Thor, let alone the entire LOSH combined. If you think he is, I'd like to see the scene where he is stated to be above Thor by that margin. Or do you think Thor is comparable to Validus now?

Because he can't do that as Validus isn't his creation?

And Thor defeated Ego in Thor 131. So Thor>Ego>Galactus and then Galactus almost killed Thor so Galactus>Thor>Ego. C'mon man.

And again got killed by Thor. So Thor>Orikal>Odin. Makes perfect sense.

And here is Odin, Zeus and Vishnu combined attacking with the force which can reel a planet out of its orbit.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/1/13573/1935600-celestials_odin_zeus_vishnu_2_super.jpg

Add eternity using every bit of its power to destroy a planet/LT's most powerful attack being a supernova/above supernova attacks from Celestials turning Destroyer into slag. I wonder where Odin's galaxy busting went against Celestials?

No, its not. This is his average against marvel top tiers is.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111327/3460713-3326147-nuff%2Bsaid.jpg

Superman wasn't even moved by a Hulk who was growing geometrically stronger by the second (2x stronger by every second). Compare how Mangog fared against Thor who at best is equal to average savage Hulk.

I don't know what's your point? That everyone has got low points? Should I start mentioning Odin's low points?

And that's relevant how?

Have we?

By a surprise attack. A surprise attack from Superboy, Mon-El and Ultra-Boy would KTFO Odin too.

Thor overpowered Odin in Thor 291. So?

Odin and Surtur were killed by Odin's suicide atatck which didn't even destroy the city they were in. So?

In physical power? He is above Odin who at one point was stated to be weaker than Thor.

laughing out loud

So, highfather is universal level in power and base Darkseid has been stated to be his equal? Good to know. Why is that when Odin does a feat and Mangog is considered to be uber but when Highfather does a feat, it makes Darkseid weaker?

By rebounding his own power. That happens all the time.

Able to take on entire LOSH and winning? Compared to time trapper and Infinite Man?

He isn't. He is in the same league though.

Just like using odin as an example to how uber Mangog is when mangog has conceded that he's no odin?

And I've seen no reason to believe Validus wouldn't pound Odin into paste if its goes into h2h. Because mangog, orikal and universe buster!!!! LOLZ!

LordofBrooklyn

Originally posted by kgkg
Why are we assuming this is H2H?

It is the scenario that makes the fight the most interesting.

The other point is that Odin is the only one who can essentially attack without any physical confrontation whatsoever. The other combatants would be in a hand to hand struggle.

Gorr's Necroblade against Grundy and Doomsday provides room for some interesting arguments.

Grundy is already dead so what can the Necroblade do to him?

When Amazo battled Grundy the death within Gold started to corrupt Amazo's body.

H/P Doomsday should tank the Blade given his performance.

Prof. T.C McAbe

Physically Odin is inferior to all here.

HP DD would stomp Odin (he evolved past physical damage, chronal energies and even the omega effect and psi)

Val would rip WBH apart like a doll

Grundy vs Gorr would be interesting but this won't be enough

quanchi112

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Physically Odin is inferior to all here.

HP DD would stomp Odin (he evolved past physical damage, chronal energies and even the omega effect and psi)

Val would rip WBH apart like a doll

Grundy vs Gorr would be interesting but this won't be enough He never evolved past physical damage. He was hurt the entire arc. They wanted to stop the resurrection of him and the process which is why they took him to the end of time.

I disagree with everything else you've said here but you haven't supported it just made baseless claims.

Newjak

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
It is the scenario that makes the fight the most interesting.

The other point is that Odin is the only one who can essentially attack without any physical confrontation whatsoever. The other combatants would be in a hand to hand struggle.

Gorr's Necroblade against Grundy and Doomsday provides room for some interesting arguments.

Grundy is already dead so what can the Necroblade do to him?

When Amazo battled Grundy the death within Gold started to corrupt Amazo's body.

H/P Doomsday should tank the Blade given his performance. The blade and weapon that was able to seriously harm Galactus and defeat him?

I think the Necroblade is a dangerous item in this fight.

golem370

Odin is able to fight Surtur who imo should rival anybody in this fight

Delta1938

Originally posted by Newjak
The blade and weapon that was able to seriously harm Galactus and defeat him?

I think the Necroblade is a dangerous item in this fight.

His argument on Grundy vs the Necroblade is because Grundy is already dead. I haven't read the comics, but based on what LoB posted, I would think the Necroblade only worked on the living. Is he correct? If so, I can't see it doing much to Grundy.

And for the record, Colossal Boy didn't do "just fine" like operator is saying. He had a few times where he looked good in largely separate instances, but arguably from sneak attack. His first attack you could argue staggered Validus, but then immediately got his ass kicked while the narration talked about how he wasn't a match for Validus. If anything it's the fact that Colossal Boy was still conscious is the lowball for Validus.

carver9

Team 1 stomps. Can't believe this went on so long.

Delta1938

Originally posted by carver9
Team 1 stomps. Can't believe this went on so long.

confused

You, you--you.....YOU are voting against WB Hulk? eek!

psycho gundam

operator616

Originally posted by abhilegend

WTF kind of logic is that? Mangog hasn't even destroyed a planet let alone stated to be able to destroy galaxies. He isn't even 10 times as strong as Thor going by their showings and you're wanking the shit out of him like he's an abstarct or something. Yet being billions of times stronger than entire LOSH and fatal Five means Sun eater is just trans? But I like how you consider being stronger than LOSH and Fatal Five means you're just trans. A billion times stronger than post-crisis Superman would make you nigh-abstract, let alone pre-crisis Superboy. Just look at H/P Doomsday. But since Thor was stated to be stronger than Odin and actually overpowered him in strength in Thor 291, I'd reconsider that. Just recently Odin pounded on him in Fear Itself and Thor wasn't even KOED. But we would forget that and pretend that Odin is somehow billions of times stronger than PC Superboy. Hilarious.

Uh, you're right. Being billions of times stronger than them and being trans doesn't make sense. Which is why im not asking you to take that statement literally. But its implication is quite clear. Sun Eater dwarfs them, which is why they had to amp themselves. Perhaps it's not "billions" of times more powerful than them, but well above them for sure.
And i even said that Sun Eater could be regarded as skyfather level depending on the way you look at it. Either way though, Sun Eater is not on Odin's level (high skyfather) and still well above Validus.

And yeah, Thor giving Odin a fight is a low showing for Odin, which is also weird. Since Odin was willing to kill Thor yet Thor was holding his own for a while, despite the fact that before that story Odin has outright depowered Thor instantly from Asgard (while Thor was on Earth). He's depowered Thor in JiM #101, JiM #113, Thor #145 previously, so he could've done the same thing instead of fighting and then kill Thor (which he eventually did not of course, but that's besides the point).

Originally posted by abhilegend

Taking a cue from yourself, here is Darkseid compared to Time-Trapper and Infinite Man.

http://i.imgur.com/kBrv0P4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yCFz4yb.jpg

So, everyone in DC is trans according to you?

Scan #1: White witch saying "Not since Darkseid have i seen so much power" is a reference to GDS, where Darkseid was amped.

Scan #2: In the Legion continuity Darkseid is best known for GDS (where he was amped), and that's what made him so dangerous a foe. So the bio saying "he's a foe in Darkseid's class" is true as far as threat level goes. Because in GDS, Darkseid amped himself to a point where he could become a TT level foe (not to mention that's a 1988 bio and TT later had more feats)
There's a similar statement in an '87 bio; which also states that he's a peer of Darkseid, but goes on to say that his personal abilities are not known:

http://i.imgur.com/o2LLkVG.jpg?1

So they're referring to his threat level given that they don't know the extent of his personal power. After all, in his very first appearances TT looked like a weakling, and used tech to battle the Legionnaires. And Darkseid was such a high level threat only because he amped himself.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's why Mangog oneshotted him?

And Odin defeated Mangog as well. In the same arc no less, and while he possessed the Odinsword.

Originally posted by abhilegend
If someone like Mangog can do that? Why not?

Because Validus is no Mangog.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It doesn't makes lowballing them excusable too.

Lowballing? laughing out loud

So pointing out that Validus was confirmed to be below 2 trans level characters (or skyfather in Sun Eater's case, it's debatable imo) is lowballing?

And pointing out that pulling a galaxy worth of planets is not Superboy's average is lowballing too?

But i guess just because im arguing against the DC side, i must be lowballing them.

operator616

Originally posted by abhilegend
How is being billions of times more powerful than LOSH+Fatal Five is supposed to be below Odin level? Odin isn't that much powerful comapred to Thor, let alone the entire LOSH combined. If you think he is, I'd like to see the scene where he is stated to be above Thor by that margin. Or do you think Thor is comparable to Validus now?

Already addressed. Let's not repeat ourselves in various quotes.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Because he can't do that as Validus isn't his creation?

You'll notice that I was referring to Mangog when i said that. Prof. T.C McAbe was asking why would Odin not use time stop, i said that why would he need to do that given that he can cut him from his power source.

Well that, and he rarely uses that power. Because the same can be said for Thor, who can also stop time in a limited area, and he could do that in the Mangog time period. Thor froze Odin once in Thor #198 so that Hela couldn't claim him, and also froze a limited area in JiM #110. (Mjolnir's time capabilities were later drained though).

Prof. T.C McAbe apparently thought that given that Odin didn't use time stop on Mangog, he can't use it on Validus. Which he can, but wouldn't need to.

Originally posted by abhilegend

And Thor defeated Ego in Thor 131. So Thor>Ego>Galactus and then Galactus almost killed Thor so Galactus>Thor>Ego. C'mon man.

And again got killed by Thor. So Thor>Orikal>Odin. Makes perfect sense.

133 you mean.

And it's not like Thor was facing Ego face to (world-big) face. He was inside him, and Ego was fighting him with some anti bodies, then Thor freed himself from Ego, he did some damage, but nothing permanent.

Well he actually didn't.

Originally posted by abhilegend

And here is Odin, Zeus and Vishnu combined attacking with the force which can reel a planet out of its orbit.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/1/13573/1935600-celestials_odin_zeus_vishnu_2_super.jpg

Add eternity using every bit of its power to destroy a planet/LT's most powerful attack being a supernova/above supernova attacks from Celestials turning Destroyer into slag. I wonder where Odin's galaxy busting went against Celestials?

Those are different scenarios from the ones concerning Superman.

Regardless of its capability of causing collateral damage, the key is in the power of the blast itself. For example, PR Owen blasted Beyonder with a multiverse-busting attack and it didn't even destroy the building they were in.

Originally posted by abhilegend

No, its not. This is his average against marvel top tiers is.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111327/3460713-3326147-nuff%2Bsaid.jpg

Superman wasn't even moved by a Hulk who was growing geometrically stronger by the second (2x stronger by every second). Compare how Mangog fared against Thor who at best is equal to average savage Hulk.

Well actually i never argued Thor > PC Superman/Superboy. In fact i believe it's the opposite. But that doesn't mean we have to blow PC characters out of proportion like Prof. is doing.

And if this is your way of saying that Mangog sucked then i already gave 2 reasons apart from Mangog handling Odin, with which we can gauge his power. And it makes sense to be comparable to Odin. It's also been stated on panel.

Originally posted by abhilegend

I don't know what's your point? That everyone has got low points? Should I start mentioning Odin's low points?

You would understand the point if you followed the discussion instead of jumping blindly to defend Superboy.

Prof. T.C McAbe was using the Superboy #140 feat as some sort of an average feat for Superboy, and then applying it to Mon-el and Ultra-boy as well.

By mentioning those showings from the same title where Superboy performed this uber feat, i was explaining to him that it's definitely not his average .

Simple.

Originally posted by abhilegend

By a surprise attack. A surprise attack from Superboy, Mon-El and Ultra-Boy would KTFO Odin too.

Thor overpowered Odin in Thor 291. So?

A one-shot surprise attack.

And no, it won't KO Odin too.

Already addressed the overpowering part earlier.

Originally posted by abhilegend

In physical power? He is above Odin who at one point was stated to be weaker than Thor.

I was never arguing about physical power in particular. Though i can also make an argument about it since Odin can easily alter his size to a point where he dwarfs planets.

Yeah, like JiM #94, one of Odin's very first appearances.

In any case, i never said that Odin is without low showings. When we consider average showings of Odin and Validus, Odin's is clearly far better.

Originally posted by abhilegend

So, highfather is universal level in power and base Darkseid has been stated to be his equal? Good to know. Why is that when Odin does a feat and Mangog is considered to be uber but when Highfather does a feat, it makes Darkseid weaker?

Dude, are you paying attention or not? Even if Highfather was universal level in power (which he most definitely isn't), he was near powerless in that instance.

Let's start with Highfather being universal in power. Where are you getting that exactly? Because his best feat was in New Gods #14, where he one-shotted the individuals through which Beldam manifested. And one of those individuals was easily handling Orion. Highfather one-shotted them all while he was in New Genesis, which at that same time period (in Mr Miracle v1 #19, 21) was confirmed to be beyond all time and space.

this is impressive, but not universal level. He's a Trans-level character, just like Darkseid.

Unto being weakened though. Given that it's the 3rd time this is getting ignored, i might as well post scans to confirm this.

The Adventure Comics #459-460 story was a continuation from where New Gods #19 left off. And Highfather was near powerless in that instance. Read what he says in NG #18:

http://i.imgur.com/i2R4zUj.jpg?1

That's the Highfather whom Darkseid faced.

Originally posted by abhilegend

By rebounding his own power. That happens all the time.

Able to take on entire LOSH and winning? Compared to time trapper and Infinite Man?

He isn't. He is in the same league though.

Not sure how's that relevant. It happened, period.

Darkseid wasn't taking on the entire LOSH and winning. Not to mention that GDS was an amped Darkseid.

Already addressed this part. Darkseid was compared to them on the basis of being a threat on their level. And he achieved that through amping.

No, Neither Pre nor Post crisis Darkseid is in the same league as Odin.

Originally posted by abhilegend
And I've seen no reason to believe Validus wouldn't pound Odin into paste if its goes into h2h. Because mangog, orikal and universe buster!!!! LOLZ!

That's good, although irrelevant since the fight is not limited to h2h. And even if it is, one could just as easily argue in Odin's favor.

operator616

Originally posted by Delta1938

And for the record, Colossal Boy didn't do "just fine" like operator is saying. He had a few times where he looked good in largely separate instances, but arguably from sneak attack. His first attack you could argue staggered Validus, but then immediately got his ass kicked while the narration talked about how he wasn't a match for Validus. If anything it's the fact that Colossal Boy was still conscious is the lowball for Validus.

He attacked and staggered Validus, then Validus punched him and kicked him twice, after which he stood and punched Validus yet again and survived a psychic assault from his as well.

That's what doing fine against Validus means for someone like Colossal Boy. He did better than what Mon-el or Superboy did in other instances.

Delta1938

Originally posted by operator616
He attacked and staggered Validus, then Validus punched him and kicked him twice, after which he stood and punched Validus yet again and survived a psychic assault from his as well.

That's what doing fine against Validus means for someone like Colossal Boy. He did better than what Mon-el or Superboy did in other instances.

I don't see "effecting with sucker punches/while Validus was distracted" and enduring a beating as "doing fine." I can't really say for sure he sneak attacked Validus(or Validus was distracted) the third time, but since he couldn't do anything when we know Validus was aware of him, I feel like it's consistent with what was shown before that CB caught Validus unaware.

As for the mental assault, I don't know how powerful Validus' mental blasts are supposed to be, but for what it's worth he also appears to be getting attacked by Saturn Girl at the same time he's blasting Colossal Boy. CB was also down from the assault until the Fatal Five left.

deathslash

I thought GDS Darkseid wasn't amped, didn't he use the relics to return himself to full power?

deathslash

GDS darkseid wan't amped, he was using the relics to return himself to his full power.

operator616

Yes he was amped. And there's no doubt about it.

After he absorbed the orb, he said that he was fulfilled, and after that he stole Mordru's and TT's powers (eventually revealed to be a controller but that was later on).

And he mindraped Daxam in its entirety, something we know standard PC Darkseid is not capable of doing.

And he could open space warps, large ones at that, something which he never had. I guess it's a coincidence that he started manifesting new powers.

Doesn't get any clearer than that, tbh.

quanchi112

carver9

I meant to say team 2 stomps. Dang.

LordofBrooklyn

Operator, please answer the following questions.

What in your opinion is Superboy's average level of power?

What multiple of power is Validus operating at in reference to Superboy?

We can proceed from there.

deathslash

Originally posted by operator616
Yes he was amped. And there's no doubt about it.

After he absorbed the orb, he said that he was fulfilled, and after that he stole Mordru's and TT's powers (eventually revealed to be a controller but that was later on).

And he mindraped Daxam in its entirety, something we know standard PC Darkseid is not capable of doing.

And he could open space warps, large ones at that, something which he never had. I guess it's a coincidence that he started manifesting new powers.

Doesn't get any clearer than that, tbh. I guess he was also amped when he created those clones of superman, the Guardian, Kalibak, Orion, and Lydea Mallor since he'd never shown that power before. Just because darkseid doesn't show his vast array of exotic abilities, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have them. Even after a good degree of his powers had waned, he still tooled superman and supergirl with ease and then still went on to create validus.

deathslash

Originally posted by carver9
I meant to say team 2 stomps. Dang. too late, there are no take backs

abhilegend

Originally posted by operator616
Uh, you're right. Being billions of times stronger than them and being trans doesn't make sense. So, he isn't trans. Simple as that. You're backpeddling now. Never a good sign.
If he's billions of times more powerful than LOSH and Validus, he's above Odin. No two ways about it.

Not so fast bro. The same Odin who was destroying galaxies wasn't able to KO Thor with several bloodlusted attacks. Was that a low showing for Odin too?

Really? Humor me where he is stated to be amped.

Nice excuses.

Good for Darkseid I guess.

You think Trapper was a weakling around COIE? El oh El.

So? He was still oneshotted by mangog. Guess power doesn't translates into physical strength.

Yeah, he is vastly superior. One gets felled by a punch from Thor, one no sells Superboy and Mon-El. Just compare Mangog's fights with Thor and Validus' "fights" against Superboy and Mon-El and you'll see how superior Validus is.

Yes. Billions of times being powerful than Validus and you're calling that as Trans? GTFO. HP Doomsday is trans and I would laugh at anybody who says he is even 10 times stronger than Superman.

Using "world moving" as low feats? It certainly is.

Not really. But nice deflection though.

abhilegend

Originally posted by operator616
Already addressed. Let's not repeat ourselves in various quotes. Nope. You're flat out wrong on that.

And how is cutting your own creation from his power means you can do that to everyone else?

What's your point here?

You can talk to Prof on that. I didn't mention time stop so quit bringing it against me.

Right.

Haha, really?

Well, he did.

Nice dodging.

So, it was a hyperbole. How powerful was the blast that it didn't caused any damage to the celestial armor and then Thor's hammer blows were chipping the armor.

If Thor is below Superboy then so is Mangog below Validus.

thumb up

I didn't say Mangog sucked. Just that beating odin physically isn't as impressive as beating Superboy or Mon-El.

I'm jumping on nothing. I just saw too much marvel wanking from you and bran. It was ridiculous.

And I agreed.

Is it?

Three PC characters suckershotting someone would knock them out. Unless they are abstracts or something.

It certainly would. A surprise shot from masterson with mjolnir stunned Loki in Odin's body.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8297/thor45513uj2.jpg

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/5892/thor45514ux9.jpg

So pardon me if I don't believe in this Odin hype.

Brushing it aside as a low showing? What about this? Odin hammered Thor with mjolnir and still couldn't knock thor out in Fear Itself 1.

And that'd be as in character as Thor godblasting every one aka not at all.

So?

In physical strength and durability? He isn't even in the same league.

So, highfather was universal level in power at a nearly powerless state? Because this "circular reasoning" that Highfather was never universal level so even though he beat a universal power at that point, he still never performed that feat.

You yourself provided the scan where he beat a universal darkseid.

erm

You've said that Darkseid is skyfather in previous posts. Backpeddling already?

You're making him more impressive. If a weakened Odin beats a fully powered Galactus, it doesn't means Galactus is puny. Does it?

So?

What? At the end he took a combined blast from LOSH and wasn't even harmed. Where was he stated to be amped?

Again excuses.

Pre-crisis sure is. Show me Odin oneshotting someone like Mon-El in coma.

Lulz. This is pure marvel wanking, nothing more.

psycho gundam

lol.

thor > odin in fisticuffs, right?

Rage.Of.Olympus

I like how amazing showings for Thor translate into poor feats for Odin. Like Thor withstanding multiple blasts from Silver Age Odin who in the same story was destroying Galaxies in his battle with Infinity for the fate of the Universe and effortlessly healed the damage done across the Universe. In the era were Odin was more or less at the peak of the food chain. Even more irrelevant since it was established that Odin was far beyond Thor and could easily end him.

It's the same backwards thinking that has Martian Manhunter as the greatest shit ever in one thread (I.e. not Superman) and worthless garbage in another thread (I.e. vs Superman).

Also, when Masterson Thor hit Odin, it was Loki in Odin's body (Which Pr said is not applicable like 1 day ago in another thread) which was also noticeably weakened. What an incredibly relevant bit of lowballing, especially since it's not as if it's done the same to other Skyfather level beings and beyond.

Just so backwards....

Cosmic_Beings

Team Gorr demolishes

deathslash

Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
Team Gorr demolishes no they don't

abhilegend

Originally posted by psycho gundam
lol.

thor > odin in fisticuffs, right?
No, but Odin isn't so above Thor that he can't affect him. Just recently in FI, a shot from Thor put Odin on his ass.Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I like how amazing showings for Thor translate into poor feats for Odin. Like Thor withstanding multiple blasts from Silver Age Odin who in the same story was destroying Galaxies in his battle with Infinity for the fate of the Universe and effortlessly healed the damage done across the Universe. In the era were Odin was more or less at the peak of the food chain. Even more irrelevant since it was established that Odin was far beyond Thor and could easily end him.

It's the same backwards thinking that has Martian Manhunter as the greatest shit ever in one thread (I.e. not Superman) and worthless garbage in another thread (I.e. vs Superman).

Also, when Masterson Thor hit Odin, it was Loki in Odin's body (Which Pr said is not applicable like 1 day ago in another thread) which was also noticeably weakened. What an incredibly relevant bit of lowballing, especially since it's not as if it's done the same to other Skyfather level beings and beyond.

Just so backwards....
Cry more. And even in that era Galactus/Ego/Watchers were easily on Odin's level.

And I don't give a shit about destroying galaxies or universe. I go solely on how characters measure up to each other, mangog has never destroyed even a planet and he oneshotted Odin. The same Thor who was taking attacks from Odin got nearly killed by Durok and electricity some issues later.

erm

Odin's body was weakened? Got any proof? And it was just his soul in Odin's body, it wasn't like he stole Odin's power. And stunning skyfathers with a single hit is Thor's average now? Lulz.

operator616

Originally posted by abhilegend
So, he isn't trans. Simple as that. You're backpeddling now. Never a good sign.
If he's billions of times more powerful than LOSH and Validus, he's above Odin. No two ways about it.

Not so fast bro. The same Odin who was destroying galaxies wasn't able to KO Thor with several bloodlusted attacks. Was that a low showing for Odin too?

He may as well be trans if we don't take the "billions" statement literally and instead understand the implication of the statement; that SE dwarfs them, but not by billions of times.

The word "billion" is used to indicate huge number not necessarily literally as it is. This is basic stuff. I admit that earlier i didn't give it much thought, because i was basing SE power, based on it being a gradual galaxy buster (Destroys stars one by one), while not factoring in its battle with LOSH/FF. Though now that i think of it, and take everything into consideration, i can see that it could be regarded as low skyfather. Considering the below:

Anyway, i don't care that much whether it's high trans or low skyfather, because either way, it's not on Odin's level period. It is a galaxy buster, but it's a gradual one. It destroys stars one by one:

http://i.imgur.com/wNZMkvo.jpg?1

And after their battle with it, Tharok literally build a bomb within minutes which blew it up. Superboy said that he could have survived the explosion if he went (but couldn't since he was still weakened):

http://i.imgur.com/RUb4bin.jpg

And it's confirmed in a retelling of Secrets of LOSH #3:

http://i.imgur.com/Di6GZ12.jpg?1

"only Superboy could have survived"

So like i said, it might as well be trans.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Not so fast bro. The same Odin who was destroying galaxies wasn't able to KO Thor with several bloodlusted attacks. Was that a low showing for Odin too?

It is a high shown for Thor, and a low showing for Odin, obviously. Since he's depowered Thor 3 times before that instance.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Really? Humor me where he is stated to be amped.

Nice excuses.

Good for Darkseid I guess.

You think Trapper was a weakling around COIE? El oh El.

I already proved that he was amped. See my previous and upcoming response to deathslash.

Empty claim. "Nice excuse" isn't a refutation. It's just an indication that you have no counter. Good to know.

Can't you read or something? I clearly said that it was in his early appearances (1960s) in Adventure Comics. Look at what we have in issue #338:

http://i.imgur.com/tfjyy9f.jpg?1

He was originally meant to be a mastermind criminal kind of villain. And by COIE he wasn't a weakling, no. But still not as powerful overall as he became later on. I can go into full details if you'd like, and ill prove it.

But that doesn't matter anyway, since Darkseid was compared to him on the basis of being a threat on his level, and he achieved that through amping.

Originally posted by abhilegend

So? He was still oneshotted by mangog. Guess power doesn't translates into physical strength.

Yeah, he is vastly superior. One gets felled by a punch from Thor, one no sells Superboy and Mon-El. Just compare Mangog's fights with Thor and Validus' "fights" against Superboy and Mon-El and you'll see how superior Validus is.

Mangog was > Ego and Orikal, so it's understandable. Not sure why you feel the need to lowball Odin through Mangog.

So you compare Validus' high showings with Mangog's low showings. Totally not bias.

How about this. Mangog was superior to Ego (Galactus level in that time period), and Orikal, while Validus gets one-shotted by Bronze Age Superboy, Mon-El and Ultra-Boy.

Seems legit doesn't it? Anyway, we compare averages, and Classic Mangog's average was always near Odin. That's enough for me to say that Validus is no Mangog.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes. Billions of times being powerful than Validus and you're calling that as Trans? GTFO. HP Doomsday is trans and I would laugh at anybody who says he is even 10 times stronger than Superman.

Addressed above.

Though i guess a being billions of times more powerful than Legion + Fatal Five can only destroy a galaxy by destroying the stars one by one.

Superboy, Mon-el and Ultra-Boy are capable of destroying a star. Validus can too most likely, Mano can one-shot planets with a single touch.

And SE is billions of times stronger that them yet can't destroy a galaxy instantly and instead destroys it by taking out the stars one by one.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Using "world moving" as low feats? It certainly is.

Not really. But nice deflection though.

No it's not. And i don't even see why you think so. The guy was using Superboy pulling a galaxy worth of planets as an average showing, so i pointed out that he also pulled a single planet with all his strength in other instances. That's how we know that it's not an average showing (along with many other instances which indicate so, some of which i already referenced).

Yes really. It's the same thing with you all the time. Whenever i argue against DC you say that im lowballing them.

operator616

Originally posted by abhilegend
And how is cutting your own creation from his power means you can do that to everyone else?

This is just a prime example of how you fail to comprehend what im saying.

You realize that i never said that Odin can do that to whoever he likes right? In fact i said the exact opposite. in the beginning of this thread:

Originally posted by operator616

Btw, Odin has defeated Mangog on several occassions. Though he's different from Validus, since Odin can't cut him from his power source as he did Mangog. Doesn't change the fact that Odin can outright stomp him.

Can you read what i said here ^^^ ...?

Prof. MCabe was asking why Odin didn't use time stop on Mangog, i replied why would he need to do that given that he can cut him from his power source. Then you jumped in and assumed i was talking about Validus.

Pay attention next time.

Originally posted by abhilegend

What's your point here?

You can talk to Prof on that. I didn't mention time stop so quit bringing it against me.

My point is explaining what's the discussion between me and Prof was about, before you barged in.

And that's what this was all about: Explaining what's the discussion was about. I never brought anything against you.

Pay attention.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Haha, really?

Well, he did.

Not sure what's funny about it...? Because I offered a very accurate assessment of what happened in the comics.

No he didn't kill Orikal.

Originally posted by abhilegend

So, it was a hyperbole. How powerful was the blast that it didn't caused any damage to the celestial armor and then Thor's hammer blows were chipping the armor.

No it wasn't a hyperbole because this kind of thing happens multiple times in comics. Heck, you Eternity example actually supports this point as opposed to contradict it.

In different comics, under different writers. So i can't see why even though it seems weird.

And even then, let's not forget that not everything that eyeball was saying, was actually true. There are several things contradictory about eyeball's story, like Odin's origins. Refer to Thor #355 for example. Now, im not saying that everything that eyeball said was false since there are other accounts supporting some of eyeballs stories, merely that it was off on some details, and maybe the one you're referencing was on of them.

Originally posted by abhilegend

I didn't say Mangog sucked. Just that beating odin physically isn't as impressive as beating Superboy or Mon-El.

Pretty sure that beating Odin is more impressive than beating Superboy and Mon-el together.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Three PC characters suckershotting someone would knock them out. Unless they are abstracts or something.

BA PC. Important distinction.

Lol if you think that 3 PC characters can KO anyone short of abstracts. You are truly deluded about PC power levels.

Originally posted by abhilegend

It certainly would. A surprise shot from masterson with mjolnir stunned Loki in Odin's body.

http://i.imgur.com/fsvvrYp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ppYiqO3.jpg

So pardon me if I don't believe in this Odin hype.

Same comic, 2 pages earlier:

http://i.imgur.com/WkVSg2X.jpg?1

"i (do) not wield my father's full Odin-power"

Nothing more needs to be said really.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Brushing it aside as a low showing? What about this? Odin hammered Thor with mjolnir and still couldn't knock thor out in Fear Itself 1.

And you're assuming that he wanted to KO Thor in that instance?

Originally posted by abhilegend

And that'd be as in character as Thor godblasting every one aka not at all.

So?

In physical strength and durability? He isn't even in the same league.

But it'd be more in character for Odin not to use this ability and let himself lose. Right? If it's purely physical then he might as well amp himself.

It happened at a time period when Odin's power-level wasn't properly established yet.

Did i specify that it's specifically limited to strength and durability? Did the OP do that? Or is it because you are desperate of giving Validus the win, and even you know that the only possible to do that is by comparing them physically.

In which case, you still fail, because there can still be made a good argument in Odin's favor.

Just so you know though, i was talking about their overall power.

Originally posted by abhilegend

So, highfather was universal level in power at a nearly powerless state? Because this "circular reasoning" that Highfather was never universal level so even though he beat a universal power at that point, he still never performed that feat.

You yourself provided the scan where he beat a universal darkseid.

erm

You've said that Darkseid is skyfather in previous posts. Backpeddling already?

Well, first of all, if you actually read the scans i posted you'll notice that Highfather never beat Darkseid to begin with, he merely weakened him enough for Orion's astro-force to overpower him.

Though presumably Highfather weakened him a great deal, since in NG v1 #16 Orion admitted that his Astro-Force pales in comparison with Darkseid's power.

And Darkseid gets vaporized by Desaad's uni canon.

The only way to make this showing good for Darkseid is for Highfather to be multiversal, which he most definitely isn't.

You can go ahead and quote me when did i say that Darkseid is a skyfather. I hope you're not referring to the time where i said that Darkseid's feats are better than Zeus'. Which is true, and i specifically said it depends on what you mean by "skyfather", because it may be a title or a reference to power level. And skyfathers vary, but ive seen many people think when the term skyfather is used, it means the character is a galaxy buster, which is why i sometimes avoid using it.

Originally posted by abhilegend

You're making him more impressive. If a weakened Odin beats a fully powered Galactus, it doesn't means Galactus is puny. Does it?

So?

What? At the end he took a combined blast from LOSH and wasn't even harmed. Where was he stated to be amped?

Again excuses.

You're missing the point; standard PC Darkseid doesn't have any feats to put him at skyfather level, and those showings prove that.

Your reasoning for him being superior to Odin is literally because of 2 statements (which are actually misinterpreted from you, but even if they weren't they are still statements and not showings), and GDS where he was amped (and even then, taking on a blast from LOSH, with Ultra-Boy and Wildfire being the only members comparable to Superboy from the team who attacked Darkseid; not sure how's that put him on Odin's level.

And again, among the members who attacked Darkseid, Wildfire and Ultra-boy are the only ones comparable to Superboy.

Star Boy, Sun Boy, Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad and Elemental Lad are all meh.

Here's Darkseid being endangered by the Forever People in #8 though (specifically Moonrider), and later admits that he was in danger laughing out loud

:

http://i.imgur.com/Sv4RA1n.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AGrpKUL.jpg

Which is why he had to bfr them away.

Excuse? More like putting the statement into proper context.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Pre-crisis sure is. Show me Odin oneshotting someone like Mon-El in coma.

Lulz. This is pure marvel wanking, nothing more.

You do realize this happened after he stole Mordru's and TT/Controller's powers, right?

But ok. Someone of Mon-el's class or above? Sure thing. Here's Odin one-shot killing Hela in Thor #190:

http://i.imgur.com/KlWMDht.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XTHo8fF.jpg

(and later resurrecting her)

Yeah, it's not like you're bias or anything. Honest question: Do you read Marvel comics for the sole reason of lowballing its characters? Because i never see you posting a nice showing for any of its character ever. It's always lowballing with you.

operator616

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Operator, please answer the following questions.

What in your opinion is Superboy's average level of power?

What multiple of power is Validus operating at in reference to Superboy?

We can proceed from there.

Well i actually already answered your questions at the beginning of this thread.

Anyway, SA Superboy was trans-level (low or mid at best), and SA Superboy admitted that Validus is a dozen times stronger than himself in Adventure Comics #366 (1968, Silver Age). Sometimes it seemed to be true, other times it did not.

I already said all of this, but you didn't pay attention.

Originally posted by deathslash
I guess he was also amped when he created those clones of superman, the Guardian, Kalibak, Orion, and Lydea Mallor since he'd never shown that power before. Just because darkseid doesn't show his vast array of exotic abilities, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have them. Even after a good degree of his powers had waned, he still tooled superman and supergirl with ease and then still went on to create validus.

Happened off panel so don't know how much time it took him, how much technology he used, etc... We know nothing about that feat. And even then, is this somehow supposed to justify the fact that he's more powerful than Validus?

And i don't know why you're referencing Darkseid's feats? Because we're discussing whether he was amped or not; referencing Darkseid's feats doesn't help with that.
Though i like how you ignored everything else i said. Guess scans would be more convincing then.

Must i repeat the fact that he said "i am fulfilled" when he absorbed the orb (he also previously absorbed Excalibur):

http://i.imgur.com/VHWy56Y.jpg?1

And the bio confirms that it's the necessary power level that he wanted.

http://i.imgur.com/IPMIBpA.jpg?1

Which can either be that he got his full power back or that he obtained even more than his full power. Either way, Darkseid was at least full power at that point. And after that he stole Mordru's powers:

http://i.imgur.com/iXAIYQO.jpg

And TT's (revealed to be a controller in Legionnaires 3):

http://i.imgur.com/yOJEwjg.jpg

You call that not amped?

And you really think standard PC Darkseid would be able to mindrape an entire planet? When most of New Gods v1 and Forever People v1 focused on Darkseid coming to Earth and seeking the ALE from the Earth's population (this is one scan from Forever People #3, but there are far more):

http://i.imgur.com/x71qwe0.jpg?1

So for someone who can mindrape billions of daxamites, it shouldn't be a problem doing the same for Earth's population; yet he couldn't even do it to a city much less the whole planet.

Along with using space warps, which he used extensively, you'd think that given he loves this ability so much and the fact that he uses it many times, he'd have shown it at least one time before. But no. Off the top of my head i can reference you to Hunger Dogs, where he was desperately trying to escape Apokolips because it was going to blow up, and he used a goddamn vehicle instead of, y'know, creating a space warp and being out of there in a second. Well, i agree that characters don't always use their abilities even sometimes in cases where those abilities are needed, but considering that Darkseid has never showed this ability to begin with, it doesn't help his case.

Branlor Swift

Wait, is abhi of all people complaining about lowballing? Not only complaining but proceeds to do it?

Good times were had by all.

Also Odin is a pussy physically. That's why he's the only person off the top of my mind to temp KO fed Galactus physically. Which Validus would totes do.
Also numerous Surtur fights.

operator616

Yeah, pretty much everytime one argues against the DC side, it's lowballing in Abhi's dictionary.

thumb up

on the 2nd part though.

LordofBrooklyn

operator616

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Great.

Now Validus is 12 times stronger than Superboy, this by any reasonable standard puts him in the Skyfather level in strength and durability.

Why would Odin simply dispatch of Validus at this level of power?

P.S Low or Mid trans is debatable.

You ignored the part where i said that sometimes it didn't seem to be true. Because it's not like Validus can take on 12 superboy(s) on an average day. Like, at all. Not to mention that 3 Superboy level characters KOed Validus. Bronze Age Superboy level. Meaning he's lower than Silver Age (i actually already explained this, but im repeating myself since everything is getting ignored)

And that's what....the only thing that can even put Validus on skyfather level?

How about Validus not being able to break out of inertron no matter how hard he tried ( Adventure Comics #352):

http://i.imgur.com/dx1aEJP.jpg

Same Inertron that was broke by Ultra-Boy (who has Superboy level strength) in Adventure comics #379:

http://i.imgur.com/bY5Ft7M.jpg

And the one that Superboy could break (#378):

http://i.imgur.com/0qbJB97.jpg

Karate Kid (who doesn't even have any superhuman powers, but he has retarded martail arts, which honestly seem like herald level most times) literally broke Inertron as well in Superboy #231:

http://i.imgur.com/NyQuI4d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/og5OMZH.jpg

And that's the same comic where Validus was contained in it:

http://i.imgur.com/Q9crm4F.jpg

Gimbor also contained Validus in a cage according to Superboy #221:

http://i.imgur.com/VYkb523.jpg?1

And the substance couldn't have been more powerful than inertron.

Ive referenced the inertron part already but it got ignored of course.

--------------

That aside though, you also ignored all my previous points and "proceeded" as if they weren't there. I knew something like this would happen which is why i didn't respond to you. I knew you're gonna ignore this.

But ill repeat:

Sun Eater was confirmed to dwarf Validus:

http://i.imgur.com/1ni5jon.jpg?1

And that's the same Sun Eater who destroys a galaxy by wiping out the stars one by one:

http://imgur.com/wNZMkvo

And that's the same Sun Eater who was destroys by an explosion that Superboy could have survived:

http://i.imgur.com/RUb4bin.jpg

Here's a retelling from Secrets of LOSH #3 confirming this:

http://i.imgur.com/Di6GZ12.jpg?1

Along with Darkseid creating and uncreating Validus. And Darkseid was a solid trans level character, pre crisis. As i already proved.

There's very little to say that Validus is a skyfather. Much less an Odin level skyfather. He's trans, always has been.

And Odin can handle Validus since he has much better feats. In case you're unaware let me know, and ill give you a list. He's had multiple fully universal feats.

Though im pretty sure all of the above is going to get ignored yet again. We wouldn't want Validus to look below skyfather now would we? Nah, we'll just use that single statement from Superboy and gauge his entire power based on it, while ignoring everything else.

eaebiakuya

Yes, post Odin feats thumb up

abhilegend

Originally posted by operator616
He may as well be trans if we don't take the "billions" statement literally and instead understand the implication of the statement; that SE dwarfs them, but not by billions of times. Then you disagree with your own scans that sun eater was billions of times more powerful than Validus? Good.

Haha, what? It plainly states that its billions of times more powerful than LOSH and Fatal Five combined. It can't get any literal than that. Low skyfather? Based on gradual destruction of stars?

facepalm

You are taking space cheese too seriously.

Considering I don't use space cheese as indication of power level, I don't give a shit about how it destroys galaxies or whatnot.

Wait what? Sun eaters are vulnerable inside their nucleus. That's how they are defeated nearly everytime. But now Superboy could have survived an explosion billions of times more powerful sun eater couldn't? Awesome.

Or Superboy is tougher than you realize.

Depowering has nothing to do with that.

Will do.

No, its just that. You have lots of excuses. I get it.

What? That bio is after COIE where he was creating universes.

The bio didn't mention that Time Trapper rivalled an amped Darkseid.

Hahaha, using ABC comparison at its finest. But I can do what you're trying to do too considering Orikal was captured by Troll King and couldn't escape from mere lava and would've died if Thor hadn't rescued him from that.

High showings? He routinely merked Superboy as flea, Mon-El couldn't even harm him on separate occassions and like that. Its his average.

I don't use comparisons when Mangog and Ego have never fought. But I like how you consider being compared to someone makes them automatically superior. So was Desak celestial level and King Thor killed a celestial level being merged with destroyer?

And Validus' average was far above Superboy who was stronger than Odin and Thor combined. So yeah, Mangos can't even lick Validus' boots.

Not really. Your opinions aren't facts.

Who the **** cares?

Show me Mangog doing that please. Even bronze age Superman was able to traverse under the infinite gravity of creation and survive the ****ing big bang.

Again, who gives a shit? Mangog has never even destroyed a planet and oneshotted Odin. Orikal has never done that either. I can list on and on.

Its as much of an average showing as Odin destroying a galaxy.

No, when I see you lowballing I say you're lowballing.

abhilegend

Originally posted by operator616
This is just a prime example of how you fail to comprehend what im saying.

You realize that i never said that Odin can do that to whoever he likes right? In fact i said the exact opposite. in the beginning of this thread: So, no reason to say he can do that to Validus. Good.

Seriously? You are becoming really obnoxious at this point.

So we agree that he can't do that to Validus? Good.

And?

This isn't anything personal.

Quit being a jackass.

I was laughing at you thinking you were actually right. Thor defeated Ego. So has BRB. So has several others. So?

he killed Mangog who stomped Orikal.

Oh really? How does Eternity exerting his whole power to destroy a single planet supports your point?

Different writers? And these Orikal/Mangog and whatever scans you're using aren't from different writers>

A different writers retconning it doesn't means the eye saying something altogether different was wrong. Either prove it was wrong or shut up.

No, it isn't. You have very inflated view on Odin's durability.

Even BA PC characters have retarded feats. Just before COIE, Superman and Supergirl fought Blackstarr who could literally reshape the universe. Guess what happened?

You mean like Superman didn't fight people like Maaldor and something? Weird, I thought he did.

Now you're being Bran.

One panel below.

http://i.imgur.com/TZSRETe.jpg

"I'm growing stronger with every moment." Considering Odin didn't feel any weaker when he returned to his body, I'm pretty sure Loki wasn't any weaker when he was stunned by Masterson Thor. Did I step on your toes, o great operator?

You're assuming he wasn't? Why?

You mean he pounded on Thor with mjolnir for nothing? Well. your excuses are getting more laughable.

That doesn't means it wasn't carried out in Thor 291, where Thor actually proved himself stronger.

I've no problems saying that Odin would beat Validus if he goes versatile. What I'm disputing is the wanking of characters like Mangog just because they happen to fight odin.

In average case, no it can't be.

And I'm talking about physical power. Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that someone might be better than your precious skyfathers in certain areas?

Well, that's enough power for Highfather to weaken a universal power to be overpowered by herald level attacks, don't you think?

Good.

Odin got drained by troll weaponry, Galactus was drained by Reed and Quasar. Tech is haxx in comics and NEW GOD Tech is really haxxx. Or did you forget Genesis?

Again with the circular logic. Darkseid was definitely universal there and Highfather still weakened him enough. So why don't you just stop denying what's in your face?

No, that's not skyfather term means. Destroying a galaxy or a universe means shit if you can't back it up by combat feats.

Well, I disagree.

Where did I say he is superior to Odin? And it certainly does in my eyes.

Hahahaha. Oh you and your high standards.

And where he casually beat Infinity Man? Color me shocked.

Oh really?

Nah, excuses.

Right.

The same Hela who gets routinely overpowered by Thor and stalemated by Enchantress? Bwahaha. Now I know you're WANKING marvel characters like your life depends upon it.

No, I don't read marvel comics for that purpose and neither have I lowballed any characters in this thread. But nice to see you whining like bran with the lowballing.

Galan007

Originally posted by operator616
How about Validus not being able to break out of inertron no matter how hard he tried ( Adventure Comics #352):

http://i.imgur.com/dx1aEJP.jpg

Same Inertron that was broke by Ultra-Boy (who has Superboy level strength) in Adventure comics #379:

http://i.imgur.com/bY5Ft7M.jpg

And the one that Superboy could break (#378):

http://i.imgur.com/0qbJB97.jpg

Karate Kid (who doesn't even have any superhuman powers, but he has retarded martail arts, which honestly seem like herald level most times) literally broke Inertron as well in Superboy #231:

http://i.imgur.com/NyQuI4d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/og5OMZH.jpg

And that's the same comic where Validus was contained in it:

http://i.imgur.com/Q9crm4F.jpg

Gimbor also contained Validus in a cage according to Superboy #221:

http://i.imgur.com/VYkb523.jpg?1

And the substance couldn't have been more powerful than inertron. my only problem with using those inertron showings as a strength-gauge, is that i don't think you're considering their respective thicknesses(which is a very important variable.)

the inertron box that housed the miracle machine(which ultra-boy and superboy were stated to be able to break) was relatively thin:
http://i.imgur.com/nHV8cxk.jpg
same coin, the inertron bonds that karate kid broke were extremely thin.

conversely, the inertron prison validus was housed in was enormous--mountain-like:
http://i.imgur.com/v8o47xl.jpg
the showings you posted would only be applicable to val if the inertron in question was the same thickness as his prison--which it clearly wasn't.

especially when we know for sure that outside of a few low-end/PIS showings, silver age validus was consistently portrayed as far more powerful than silver age superboy-level beings. examples...

superboy hits val with a "full force" strike, which only succeeds in making val 'wince' a bit. superboy, however, was nearly KO'd by his own attack:
http://i.imgur.com/wfwGYlz.jpg

val was also capable of owning superboy with a casual backhand:
http://i.imgur.com/p0u5DDR.jpg

owns superboy in a few panels again:
http://i.imgur.com/Eqzd96H.jpg

ergo superboy's statement that val was "a dozen times" more powerful than he:
http://i.imgur.com/u0a5QWc.jpg

superboy isn't the only being of that caliber whom validus stomped. here val tanks mon-el's strike, before grabbing/overpowering him(with super-speed, btw), and throwing him into the ground with such force that he was sent completely through the entire planet:
http://i.imgur.com/vRYA2d4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/f8fqgCH.jpg

we also have val being completely unfazed by mon-el's punch(despite it being a cheap shot):
http://i.imgur.com/hQEiITT.jpg

owns mon-el again:
http://i.imgur.com/ip9NSNw.jpg

overpowers mon-el(again), but this time casually restrains him in an lulz-worthy manner:
http://i.imgur.com/i8YJVZO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BNOlo4W.jpg

in fact, superboy flat-out stated that mon-el was "even stronger" than himself:
http://i.imgur.com/hruUtiD.jpg

...and i guess that explains why it took a surprise attack from superboy+mon-el+ultra-boy just to 'topple' validus:
http://i.imgur.com/NelebBO.jpg

and just for fun...

validus' who's who bio confirms that his strength is >>> a kryptonian's:
http://i.imgur.com/OwmONwH.jpg
"validus possesses strength and invulnerability FAR greater than that of a kryptonian in an earthly environment."

here val easily rips a moon-sized mass from a planet:
http://i.imgur.com/fJVDUng.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uVDURgE.jpg

despite being weakened from a previous encounter with a sun-eater, validus battled yet another sun-eater until he forced it to retreat:
http://i.imgur.com/gLvxHqA.jpg
yes, i am aware they were each 1/8 fragments of the 'prime' sun-eater, but even so, out of all the LoSH and F5 members who battled a sun-eater fragment, val is the only being who managed to fend one off--and he did so while weak. uber.

anyhow, none of the above changes my opinion regarding the outcome of this battle. i just mentioned that stuff because i didn't want anyone to misunderstand your post, and try claiming that silver age val was a sub-par feeb or somesuch. thumb up

Branlor Swift

Originally posted by Galan007
silver age val was a sub-par feeb thumb up

abhilegend

Originally posted by operator616
Well i actually already answered your questions at the beginning of this thread.

Anyway, SA Superboy was trans-level (low or mid at best), and SA Superboy admitted that Validus is a dozen times stronger than himself in Adventure Comics #366 (1968, Silver Age). Sometimes it seemed to be true, other times it did not.

I already said all of this, but you didn't pay attention.

Happened off panel so don't know how much time it took him, how much technology he used, etc... We know nothing about that feat. And even then, is this somehow supposed to justify the fact that he's more powerful than Validus?

And i don't know why you're referencing Darkseid's feats? Because we're discussing whether he was amped or not; referencing Darkseid's feats doesn't help with that.
Though i like how you ignored everything else i said. Guess scans would be more convincing then.

Must i repeat the fact that he said "i am fulfilled" when he absorbed the orb (he also previously absorbed Excalibur):

http://i.imgur.com/VHWy56Y.jpg?1

And the bio confirms that it's the necessary power level that he wanted.

http://i.imgur.com/IPMIBpA.jpg?1

Which can either be that he got his full power back or that he obtained even more than his full power. Either way, Darkseid was at least full power at that point. And after that he stole Mordru's powers:

http://i.imgur.com/iXAIYQO.jpg

And TT's (revealed to be a controller in Legionnaires 3):

http://i.imgur.com/yOJEwjg.jpg

You call that not amped?

And you really think standard PC Darkseid would be able to mindrape an entire planet? When most of New Gods v1 and Forever People v1 focused on Darkseid coming to Earth and seeking the ALE from the Earth's population (this is one scan from Forever People #3, but there are far more):

http://i.imgur.com/x71qwe0.jpg?1

So for someone who can mindrape billions of daxamites, it shouldn't be a problem doing the same for Earth's population; yet he couldn't even do it to a city much less the whole planet.

Along with using space warps, which he used extensively, you'd think that given he loves this ability so much and the fact that he uses it many times, he'd have shown it at least one time before. But no. Off the top of my head i can reference you to Hunger Dogs, where he was desperately trying to escape Apokolips because it was going to blow up, and he used a goddamn vehicle instead of, y'know, creating a space warp and being out of there in a second. Well, i agree that characters don't always use their abilities even sometimes in cases where those abilities are needed, but considering that Darkseid has never showed this ability to begin with, it doesn't help his case.
Wait what? He said he was fullfilled for that moment. It was later that he realized that what he thought was his full power, it has actually waned since he slept.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/MoonKnight616/lsh-v2-294-37.jpg

So he was fulfilled to a weaker power level, not at full power level even after he absorbed every one of beings and artifacts.

Here he directly states that he might have admired Supergirl's persistence once upon a time but now he didn't have the time to waste on her.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27500/2897119-legion_of_superheroes_v2__294___page_34.jpg

Not to mention, your circumstantial evidence that in one series he couldn't control some people, and he controlled several billion daxamites means he was amped is ridiculously laughable. Guess Thomas depowered Odin against Celestials after all.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

abhilegend

Originally posted by operator616
You ignored the part where i said that sometimes it didn't seem to be true. Because it's not like Validus can take on 12 superboy(s) on an average day. Like, at all. Not to mention that 3 Superboy level characters KOed Validus. Bronze Age Superboy level. Meaning he's lower than Silver Age (i actually already explained this, but im repeating myself since everything is getting ignored)

And that's what....the only thing that can even put Validus on skyfather level?

How about Validus not being able to break out of inertron no matter how hard he tried ( Adventure Comics #352):

http://i.imgur.com/dx1aEJP.jpg

Same Inertron that was broke by Ultra-Boy (who has Superboy level strength) in Adventure comics #379:

http://i.imgur.com/bY5Ft7M.jpg

And the one that Superboy could break (#378):

http://i.imgur.com/0qbJB97.jpg

Karate Kid (who doesn't even have any superhuman powers, but he has retarded martail arts, which honestly seem like herald level most times) literally broke Inertron as well in Superboy #231:

http://i.imgur.com/NyQuI4d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/og5OMZH.jpg

And that's the same comic where Validus was contained in it:

http://i.imgur.com/Q9crm4F.jpg

Gimbor also contained Validus in a cage according to Superboy #221:

http://i.imgur.com/VYkb523.jpg?1

And the substance couldn't have been more powerful than inertron.

Ive referenced the inertron part already but it got ignored of course.

--------------

That aside though, you also ignored all my previous points and "proceeded" as if they weren't there. I knew something like this would happen which is why i didn't respond to you. I knew you're gonna ignore this.

But ill repeat:

Sun Eater was confirmed to dwarf Validus:

http://i.imgur.com/1ni5jon.jpg?1

And that's the same Sun Eater who destroys a galaxy by wiping out the stars one by one:

http://imgur.com/wNZMkvo

And that's the same Sun Eater who was destroys by an explosion that Superboy could have survived:

http://i.imgur.com/RUb4bin.jpg

Here's a retelling from Secrets of LOSH #3 confirming this:

http://i.imgur.com/Di6GZ12.jpg?1

Along with Darkseid creating and uncreating Validus. And Darkseid was a solid trans level character, pre crisis. As i already proved.

There's very little to say that Validus is a skyfather. Much less an Odin level skyfather. He's trans, always has been.

And Odin can handle Validus since he has much better feats. In case you're unaware let me know, and ill give you a list. He's had multiple fully universal feats.

Though im pretty sure all of the above is going to get ignored yet again. We wouldn't want Validus to look below skyfather now would we? Nah, we'll just use that single statement from Superboy and gauge his entire power based on it, while ignoring everything else. That's some really shitty way to lowball I might say. After all, Odin was contained by ice from Casket of Ancient Winters.

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/19608661_CasketofWinters.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/19608662_CasketofWinters2.jpg

And then Thor was unaffected by a direct blast from it point blank.

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/19608663_ThorvsMalekith3.jpg http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/19608664_ThorvsMalekith4.jpg

The double standards you are using are ridiculously laughable.

LordofBrooklyn

Originally posted by operator616
You ignored the part where i said that sometimes it didn't seem to be true. Because it's not like Validus can take on 12 superboy(s) on an average day. Like, at all. Not to mention that 3 Superboy level characters KOed Validus. Bronze Age Superboy level. Meaning he's lower than Silver Age (i actually already explained this, but im repeating myself since everything is getting ignored)

And that's what....the only thing that can even put Validus on skyfather level?

How about Validus not being able to break out of inertron no matter how hard he tried ( Adventure Comics #352):

http://i.imgur.com/dx1aEJP.jpg

Same Inertron that was broke by Ultra-Boy (who has Superboy level strength) in Adventure comics #379:

http://i.imgur.com/bY5Ft7M.jpg

And the one that Superboy could break (#378):

http://i.imgur.com/0qbJB97.jpg

Karate Kid (who doesn't even have any superhuman powers, but he has retarded martail arts, which honestly seem like herald level most times) literally broke Inertron as well in Superboy #231:

http://i.imgur.com/NyQuI4d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/og5OMZH.jpg

And that's the same comic where Validus was contained in it:

http://i.imgur.com/Q9crm4F.jpg

Gimbor also contained Validus in a cage according to Superboy #221:

http://i.imgur.com/VYkb523.jpg?1

And the substance couldn't have been more powerful than inertron.

Ive referenced the inertron part already but it got ignored of course.

--------------

That aside though, you also ignored all my previous points and "proceeded" as if they weren't there. I knew something like this would happen which is why i didn't respond to you. I knew you're gonna ignore this.

But ill repeat:

Sun Eater was confirmed to dwarf Validus:

http://i.imgur.com/1ni5jon.jpg?1

And that's the same Sun Eater who destroys a galaxy by wiping out the stars one by one:

http://imgur.com/wNZMkvo

And that's the same Sun Eater who was destroys by an explosion that Superboy could have survived:

http://i.imgur.com/RUb4bin.jpg

Here's a retelling from Secrets of LOSH #3 confirming this:

http://i.imgur.com/Di6GZ12.jpg?1

Along with Darkseid creating and uncreating Validus. And Darkseid was a solid trans level character, pre crisis. As i already proved.

There's very little to say that Validus is a skyfather. Much less an Odin level skyfather. He's trans, always has been.

And Odin can handle Validus since he has much better feats. In case you're unaware let me know, and ill give you a list. He's had multiple fully universal feats.

Though im pretty sure all of the above is going to get ignored yet again. We wouldn't want Validus to look below skyfather now would we? Nah, we'll just use that single statement from Superboy and gauge his entire power based on it, while ignoring everything else.

I'm curious, if I were to find as many instances of Odin failing to meet challenges achieved by lower characters, would that diminish his statuus?

LordofBrooklyn

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
thumb up

LIES!

deathslash

I'm really enjoying seeing the arguments for and against Odin and Validus. This was actually a pretty good thread.

operator616

Originally posted by abhilegend
Then you disagree with your own scans that sun eater was billions of times more powerful than Validus? Good.

Haha, what? It plainly states that its billions of times more powerful than LOSH and Fatal Five combined. It can't get any literal than that. Low skyfather? Based on gradual destruction of stars?

You are taking space cheese too seriously.

Considering I don't use space cheese as indication of power level, I don't give a shit about how it destroys galaxies or whatnot.

Wait what? Sun eaters are vulnerable inside their nucleus. That's how they are defeated nearly everytime. But now Superboy could have survived an explosion billions of times more powerful sun eater couldn't? Awesome.

Or Superboy is tougher than you realize.

I really like how you're using this "billions of times" literally so that you could justify the showing.

Amped Validus was stalemating it for minutes, with planetary force though:

http://i.imgur.com/CRVAb98.jpg

And you'll notice that amped Persuader's axe (which is equal to Mano's touch, which at best is planet busting) outright split it.

So that ought to help you understand that it wasn't literally billions of times. Though it did dwarf them. And it's still low skyfather at best.

You realize that the fact that the SE has a weakness in its nucleus (which is its core) is irrelevant here? Because Tharok specifically mentioned that the bomb will absorb all its power, so Superboy would be essentially tanking all its power. Same conclusion, Superboy's durability is apparently greater than SE's.

Here's a superman comic (pre-ZH), another SE of the original's caliber, where Wildfire, Lightning Lad and Superman blast their way through SE and hold their own, until they detonate it (and my problem isn't with the detonation, so don't come at me saying that "it's nucleus" it's with them holding their own and blasting it):

http://i.imgur.com/EBTsyyL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lgEJ2I9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Hcyn3Kd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/89TrAgd.jpg

Clearly above Odin.

Originally posted by abhilegend

No, its just that. You have lots of excuses. I get it.

What? That bio is after COIE where he was creating universes.

The bio didn't mention that Time Trapper rivalled an amped Darkseid.

No, it's just you can't counter anything, so you say that it's an excuse. We get it.

Well actually the revelation wasn't at the time of COIE, it was after a year or so after that. Though your bio is after that. But that's not the point at all. Because even before that Time Trapper was considered a peer to Darkseid (the early '87 bio, which is before the revelation of Trapper's pocket, says that). And there, they said that his personal abilities weren't known.

With that said. You're missing the most important point. Darkseid is literally known best for GDS only. Where he was amped. That's why Infinite Man and Trapper were compared to him, since while amped he was a foe of their class.

Neither did the white witch mentioned that "not since amped Darkseid did i sense such power", she merely said Darkseid. But we know everyone is referring to GDS Darkseid. It's blatantly clear.

Though i guess Darkseid is above Odin only because of two statements comparing him to Time Trapper. Even though they're misinterpreted to begin with.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Hahaha, using ABC comparison at its finest. But I can do what you're trying to do too considering Orikal was captured by Troll King and couldn't escape from mere lava and would've died if Thor hadn't rescued him from that.

High showings? He routinely merked Superboy as flea, Mon-El couldn't even harm him on separate occassions and like that. Its his average.

I don't use comparisons when Mangog and Ego have never fought. But I like how you consider being compared to someone makes them automatically superior. So was Desak celestial level and King Thor killed a celestial level being merged with destroyer?

And Validus' average was far above Superboy who was stronger than Odin and Thor combined. So yeah, Mangos can't even lick Validus' boots.

The flames was Orikal's weakness obviously. So it's weakness exploitation.

You're missing the point. You mentioned that Mangog gets felled by a punch of Thor's and then compare this to Validus no selling Superboy's punches. So you're saying that Mangog's average is getting felled by a punch of Thor right? I mean, for real?

I don't care that you don't use them.

That's really great that you think that Superboy is great than Thor and Odin combined physically. Which is just retarded. I already mentioned what Superboy's average is, and i can continue if you want, but im not gonna repeat myself. Though you're right that Mangos can't lick Validus' boots. Though we're talking about Mangog here.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Not really. Your opinions aren't facts.

Who the **** cares?

Show me Mangog doing that please. Even bronze age Superman was able to traverse under the infinite gravity of creation and survive the ****ing big bang.

Again, who gives a shit? Mangog has never even destroyed a planet and oneshotted Odin. Orikal has never done that either. I can list on and on.

My opinion are based on facts.

I do, though i can see why you think it's irrelevant. Since if it wasn't, then Validus wouldn't be comparable to Odin, which he isn't.

Doesn't mean that Mangog couldn't. Unless you think Mano is more powerful than him.

Superman traversing infinite gravity and surviving the big bang? You wouldn't happen to be referring to Action Comics #553-554 would you?

Because you do realize that he only held for a while and eventually died? It was outright stated that when Superman is subjected to the Big Bang even he could not survive:

http://i.imgur.com/2MhUdGt.jpg?1

And it's stated in the next issue that Superman disappeared and vanished (in other words, he died):

http://i.imgur.com/nnIv157.jpg

And the only way Superman was resurrected was when in the altered Earth kids recreated the hero concept and people started believing in it, which returned Superman and the Earth to normality:

http://i.imgur.com/AsTn3iM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/89uyOpt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QEGtQ8d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JvxGnc1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tQiUYLy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2itr9Qm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/u19CuIM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/veOU2OE.jpg

Superman couldn't survive the full big bang by any means. It was established in Showcase #61 that even Pre-Crisis Spectre can't survive the full power of the Big Bang, but you think Superman can? laughing out loud

operator616

Originally posted by abhilegend
So, no reason to say he can do that to Validus. Good.

Seriously? You are becoming really obnoxious at this point.

So we agree that he can't do that to Validus? Good.

I was laughing at you thinking you were actually right. Thor defeated Ego. So has BRB. So has several others. So?

he killed Mangog who stomped Orikal.

Oh really? How does Eternity exerting his whole power to destroy a single planet supports your point?

Different writers? And these Orikal/Mangog and whatever scans you're using aren't from different writers>

A different writers retconning it doesn't means the eye saying something altogether different was wrong. Either prove it was wrong or shut up.

No, it isn't. You have very inflated view on Odin's durability.

I never said that he could. It's just you putting words on my mouth because you blindly jumped to lowball Odin/Mangog.

But just because Odin can't cut Validus from his power source like he did to Mangog, doesn't mean he can't overpower him.

Err, you realize they were later instances? Because i am well aware that Ego has quite an amount of low showings, that's why i initially said "at that time period". And Ego was portrayed as a galactic entity in that time period and it was in a Thor comic, so it's perfectly usable.

I thought you were saying he killed Orikal. But anyway, as always you're missing the context. Thor was only able to do that because it's from the inside. It was specifically attributed to that.

Because obviously Eternity wasn't using a planet busting attack against a supreme power. Just because all it did was destroy a planet, doesn't mean it's only a planet busting attack. It's sole reason was to blast Thanos into oblivion, not destroy the planet. Similar to how MM's intention wasn't to destroy the building with a multiverse busting attack but rather the Beyonder.

I said that because it's a weird instance HIGHLY inconsistent with what we've normally shown. Which is why i mentioned the different writers part.

Well even you must realize that it's a wtf. So im merely saying it's a possibility.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Even BA PC characters have retarded feats. Just before COIE, Superman and Supergirl fought Blackstarr who could literally reshape the universe. Guess what happened?

You mean like Superman didn't fight people like Maaldor and something? Weird, I thought he did.

Yeah, Blackstarr was badass. It's a good showing. And Supergirl was holding her own against Blackstarr in her own solo series prior to that. Though Blackstarr ended owning herself in that comic.

Also, that wasn't before COIE, it was at the time of COIE. DC Comics Presents #86 was actually a tie-in to COIE. Which had something like 90 tie-ins.

Eh, remind me again when did Superman KO Maaldor? Because im pretty sure that Maaldor was casually laughing off Superman's punches. And Maaldor's power is pretty crazy but his durability isn't that great. He was threatening the whole multiverse in DC Comics Presents #72, yet was one-shotted by regular Krona in COIE iirc.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Now you're being Bran.

One panel below.

http://i.imgur.com/t7ztoKb.jpg

"I'm growing stronger with every moment." Considering Odin didn't feel any weaker when he returned to his body, I'm pretty sure Loki wasn't any weaker when he was stunned by Masterson Thor. Did I step on your toes, o great operator?

You're assuming he wasn't? Why?

You mean he pounded on Thor with mjolnir for nothing? Well. your excuses are getting more laughable.

That doesn't means it wasn't carried out in Thor 291, where Thor actually proved himself stronger.

And I'm talking about physical power. Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that someone might be better than your precious skyfathers in certain areas?

Is that somehow supposed to negate the fact that he didn't possess Odin's full powers?

By neglecting the context, you screwed up yet again. Deal with it.

Because Odin was teaching Thor not to defy him? He said something like "you're gonna come whether in chains or not". KOing Thor wouldn't really help with that. He wanted to beat him, and he did. That's what all this is. But in Abhi's dictionary it directly translates to something else.

No he didn't prove that he was stronger.

"my precious skyfathers".....? I have no problem admitting that certain non-skyfather characters are better than certain skyfathers in certain areas. But Validus being superior to Odin physically is not one of them.

Odin has tanked attacks that caused multi-galactic/universal damage, this is something Validus has never done. In fact, an amped Validus was already on his knees after several planet-level attacks from the Sun Eater. Just saying.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Well, that's enough power for Highfather to weaken a universal power to be overpowered by herald level attacks, don't you think?

Good.

Odin got drained by troll weaponry, Galactus was drained by Reed and Quasar. Tech is haxx in comics and NEW GOD Tech is really haxxx. Or did you forget Genesis?

Again with the circular logic. Darkseid was definitely universal there and Highfather still weakened him enough. So why don't you just stop denying what's in your face?

No, that's not skyfather term means. Destroying a galaxy or a universe means shit if you can't back it up by combat feats.

Well, I disagree.

Where did I say he is superior to Odin? And it certainly does in my eyes.

Hahahaha. Oh you and your high standards.

It's good you admit that Orion is herald level. For a second there, I thought you were gonna start wanking the shit out of PC Orion too. So that's progress.

Anyway, Highfather is trans level. Always has been. And he weakened Darkseid w/ ALE to a point where Orion overpowered him. That is all.

"Troll weaponry"? More like Orikal's.

And Galactus was drained also due to Johnny's power cosmic, who was transformed into a herald. And it was outright called something like "one of a time" device iirc. Unlike Desaad's Uni-canon which couldn't have been powerful enough to vaporize a skyfather, because you would think that with that kind of weapon they'd attack New Genesis which they didn't. Though they did have star-destroying weapons even pre-crisis from what i recall, nothing more than that really (Genesis is post-crisis).

Why do i stop denying what's in my face? Because ive actually read Highfather comics, enough to understand that he's not universal.

Yeah i know what it means. Though imagine if a cosmic entity ends up beating several skyfather characters, yet it's incapable of destroying a solar system. That be nonsense. Because the skyfathers whom he faced should have been weaker than normal. Same thing applies to SE. You can't have durability lower than Superboy, and destroy a galaxy star-by-star, yet billions of times more powerful than the Legion.

Instead of saying you disagree, you can provide a reason why.

On par or superior. Either way, it's not true

What about high standards?

Originally posted by abhilegend

And where he casually beat Infinity Man? Color me shocked.

Oh really?

Right.

The same Hela who gets routinely overpowered by Thor and stalemated by Enchantress? Bwahaha. Now I know you're WANKING marvel characters like your life depends upon it.

No, I don't read marvel comics for that purpose and neither have I lowballed any characters in this thread. But nice to see you whining like bran with the lowballing.

He bfr'ed IM. And 1 issue prior, IM was getting beaten by Mantis though he eventually won. He got froze in ice which can supposedly freeze worlds; and tanked an anti-matter attack that can shatter a star system. Now that's impressive, but is it impressive in comparison with Odin? Certainly not. Not to mention that IM got stalemated and blown up by Devilance in the last issue of the series.

Yes really. that's exactly why he bfr'ed them away.

So if you do realize that, then you know it's irrelevant either way.

So now you resort to lowballing Hela instead of admitting that it's a similar showing to Odin and moving on. Even though i can easily bring up the fact that Hela easily owned Thor 4 issues prior to that. And was stalemating Pluto 9 issues later, and while Pluto does have low showings, pretty badly ones too, it was the same issue where he drained Thor. And im bringing up showings at that time period so they're more relevant; pretty sure Thor never overpowered Hela until Thor #354.

Yeah, you totally didn't.

operator616

Originally posted by Galan007
my only problem with using those inertron showings as a strength-gauge, is that i don't think you're considering their respective thicknesses(which is a very important variable.)

the inertron box that housed the miracle machine(which ultra-boy and superboy were stated to be able to break) was relatively thin:
http://i.imgur.com/nHV8cxk.jpg
same coin, the inertron bonds that karate kid broke were extremely thin.

conversely, the inertron prison validus was housed in was enormous--mountain-like:
http://i.imgur.com/v8o47xl.jpg
the showings you posted would only be applicable to val if the inertron in question was the same thickness as his prison--which it clearly wasn't.

I didn't think the thickness was relevant even though i knew that someone would bring it up.

I already posted this in the post you quoted. You'll notice that in Superboy #231 Validus has been already restrained in non-thick inretron shackles and couldn't do anything about it:

http://imgur.com/Q9crm4F

And that's the same shackles which were broken by Karate Kid in the same comic:

http://imgur.com/NyQuI4d
http://imgur.com/og5OMZH

And even in the first instance from Adventure Comics. Validus couldn't even dent it. You'd think that if he could break thin inertron (which he actually can't) he can at least dent his cell? Or at least keep pounding on it, breaking it piece by piece, until he makes a hole in his cell so that he could escape?

Those are valid questions.

Another thing is, inertron was supposed to be indestructible, like, literally. Whether it's an entire cell worth of inertron, or it's a small piece, you'd have to exert the same level of strength to break it.

Originally posted by Galan007

especially when we know for sure that outside of a few low-end/PIS showings, silver age validus was consistently portrayed as far more powerful than silver age superboy-level beings. examples...

superboy hits val with a "full force" strike, which only succeeds in making val 'wince' a bit. superboy, however, was nearly KO'd by his own attack:
http://i.imgur.com/wfwGYlz.jpg

val was also capable of owning superboy with a casual backhand:
http://i.imgur.com/p0u5DDR.jpg

owns superboy in a few panels again:
http://i.imgur.com/Eqzd96H.jpg

ergo superboy's statement that val was "a dozen times" more powerful than he:
http://i.imgur.com/u0a5QWc.jpg

superboy isn't the only being of that caliber whom validus stomped. here val tanks mon-el's strike, before grabbing/overpowering him(with super-speed, btw), and throwing him into the ground with such force that he was sent completely through the entire planet:
http://i.imgur.com/vRYA2d4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/f8fqgCH.jpg

we also have val being completely unfazed by mon-el's punch(despite it being a cheap shot):
http://i.imgur.com/hQEiITT.jpg

owns mon-el again:
http://i.imgur.com/ip9NSNw.jpg

overpowers mon-el(again), but this time casually restrains him in an lulz-worthy manner:
http://i.imgur.com/i8YJVZO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BNOlo4W.jpg

in fact, superboy flat-out stated that mon-el was "even stronger" than himself:
http://i.imgur.com/hruUtiD.jpg

...and i guess that explains why it took a surprise attack from superboy+mon-el+ultra-boy just to 'topple' validus:
http://i.imgur.com/NelebBO.jpg

and just for fun...

validus' who's who bio confirms that his strength is >>> a kryptonian's:
http://i.imgur.com/OwmONwH.jpg
"validus possesses strength and invulnerability FAR greater than that of a kryptonian in an earthly environment."

here val easily rips a moon-sized mass from a planet:
http://i.imgur.com/fJVDUng.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uVDURgE.jpg

Only 2 of those scans are silver age though.

And i don't think anybody here is denying that Validus is more powerful than PC Superboy or anyone on Superboy's level.

Though there's something i want to address.

The attack from those 3 KOed Validus, since we see him later restrained. The only possible explanation is that they KOed him but either way, they overpowered him.

And you're assuming that Mon-el is stronger than Superboy based on one statement, despite the fact that they've been always regarded as equals, and that same series says that they are. Mon-el and Superboy actually knocked each other out (proving that they're equals like they've always been) in Superboy #208 (which is a few dozen issues before your scan):

http://i.imgur.com/hJfF8ks.jpg

And that's the same thing with Ultra-Boy. He overpowered Superboy in Superboy #205, and Superboy outright stated that Ultra-boy's strength is "beyond comprehension":

http://i.imgur.com/83uulu2.jpg

So Ultra boy is far above Superboy too? Despite the fact that he's been cited as having "superboy level" strength multiple times something his on panel showings confirm.

Anyway, Validus got KOed by 3 Superboy level beings, and that is all to it.

Originally posted by Galan007

despite being weakened from a previous encounter with a sun-eater, validus battled yet another sun-eater until he forced it to retreat:
http://i.imgur.com/gLvxHqA.jpg
yes, i am aware they were each 1/8 fragments of the 'prime' sun-eater, but even so, out of all the LoSH and F5 members who battled a sun-eater fragment, val is the only being who managed to fend one off--and he did so while weak. uber.

anyhow, none of the above changes my opinion regarding the outcome of this battle. i just mentioned that stuff because i didn't want anyone to misunderstand your post, and try claiming that silver age val was a sub-par feeb or somesuch. thumb up

Inapplicable. Since it was an amped Validus.

Tharok increased all of the Legion's/FF's abilities. It was even outright stated that Validus became more powerful:

http://i.imgur.com/g1P74TE.jpg

Here's also an official index confirming it:

http://i.imgur.com/JU0gSvH.jpg?1

SE was mentioned to have been billion of times more powerful than Legion + FF (Validus). Though it's most likely isn't literally billions of times more powerful, but certainly well above them.

operator616

Originally posted by abhilegend
Wait what? He said he was fullfilled for that moment. It was later that he realized that what he thought was his full power, it has actually waned since he slept.

So he was fulfilled to a weaker power level, not at full power level even after he absorbed every one of beings and artifacts.

Here he directly states that he might have admired Supergirl's persistence once upon a time but now he didn't have the time to waste on her.

Not to mention, your circumstantial evidence that in one series he couldn't control some people, and he controlled several billion daxamites means he was amped is ridiculously laughable. Guess Thomas depowered Odin against Celestials after all.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

the scan in no way does support your point. Like, at all.

All Darkseid was saying is that his powers waned over the millennium, which is why he stole Excalibur and the ord, after which he was "fulfilled" and then went on to steal Mordru's and TT/Controller's powers.

Anyway, i already posted all the facts, and it's blatantly clear that Darkseid was amped. And there's a bio implying that he was. Not that its needed at all.

Yeah, Darkseid suddenly gained planet-level mindrape, and he did that instantly. You do realize that Darkseid had nowhere near that kind of level power? not to mention he also suddenly acquired space-warps. Never mind the fact that the whole reason the New Genesis/Apokolips war started was when the Boom Tube was invented. If Darkseid could open space warps (planet level space warps) then why would he ask Metron to build boom tubes in the first place?

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's some really shitty way to lowball I might say. After all, Odin was contained by ice from Casket of Ancient Winters.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19608661/CasketofWinters.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19608662/CasketofWinters2.jpg.html

And then Thor was unaffected by a direct blast from it point blank.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19608663/ThorvsMalekith3.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19608664/ThorvsMalekith4.jpg.html

The double standards you are using are ridiculously laughable.

I really have to explain to you the most simplest of things don't i?

Your scan are literally 16 years apart.

While Validus couldn't break inertron at the same time period when Ultra-Boy and Superboy could (Adventure comics #352, #378, 379).

But you also blatantly ignored the part where Validus couldn't break out of inertron in the same comic where Karate Kid did.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I'm curious, if I were to find as many instances of Odin failing to meet challenges achieved by lower characters, would that diminish his statuus?

You realize that Odin has much more appearances than Validus? So of course he'd have more low showings than Validus. I can even remember off the top of my head more low showings for Odin than Validus.

But anyone who compares Odin's average with Validus' must realize that Odin's is definitely superior.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Yes, post Odin feats thumb up

Ill do this later, though id rather give you a list with issue #s. Since otherwise there'd be a lot of scans. Though if i have enough time ill post scans as well.

Galan007

Originally posted by operator616
I didn't think the thickness was relevant even though i knew that someone would bring it up.

I already posted this in the post you quoted. You'll notice that in Superboy #231 Validus has been already restrained in non-thick inretron shackles and couldn't do anything about it:

http://imgur.com/Q9crm4F

And that's the same shackles which were broken by Karate Kid in the same comic:

http://imgur.com/NyQuI4d
http://imgur.com/og5OMZH so karate kid is stronger than validus, iyo? or would you rather do the logical thing and just chalk it up to PIS?

Originally posted by operator616
And even in the first instance from Adventure Comics. Validus couldn't even dent it. You'd think that if he could break thin inertron (which he actually can't) he can at least dent his cell? Or at least keep pounding on it, breaking it piece by piece, until he makes a hole in his cell so that he could escape? given the size of validus' prison, no, i would not expect him to be able to damage it.

Originally posted by operator616
Another thing is, inertron was supposed to be indestructible, like, literally. Whether it's an entire cell worth of inertron, or it's a small piece, you'd have to exert the same level of strength to break it. obviously it is not truly indestructible, otherwise ultra-boy and superboy wouldn't be able to break it. therefore the thickness of the inertron MUST play a factor in its inherent indestructibility.

brainiac's comment pertaining to the inertron box the MM was housed in is also worth mentioning:
http://i.imgur.com/nHV8cxk.jpg
"only the most cosmos-shaking emergency can get us to crack it out and turn it on again!" ie. he knew the inertron box *could* be broken, therefore he knew it was *not* truly indestructible.

Originally posted by operator616
Only 2 of those scans are silver age though. the thread specifies "pre-crisis" validus. all of those scans are "pre-crisis". smile

Originally posted by operator616
And i don't think anybody here is denying that Validus is more powerful than PC Superboy or anyone on Superboy's level.well good. but why did you post those inertron scans, then? it certainly *seemed* like you were implying that superboy-level beings>validus, because they broke thin inertron, while val couldn't break thick inertron..?

if that was not your intention, then i apologize.

Originally posted by operator616
The attack from those 3 KOed Validus, since we see him later restrained. The only possible explanation is that they KOed him but either way, they overpowered him.okay? it still took a surprise attack from all 3 of them at once to incapacitate him. thumb up

Originally posted by operator616
And you're assuming that Mon-el is stronger than Superboy based on one statementi'm not assuming anything. just pointing out a statement that superboy himself made. it's ultimately inconsequential to this debate though.

Originally posted by operator616
Anyway, Validus got KOed by 3 Superboy level beings, and that is all to it.by a surprise attack from all 3 of them simultaneously, you mean? am i supposed to consider it a low-end showing when it takes THREE silver-age-superboy-level beings to incapacitate val with a cheap-shot attack? because frankly, i think it is an amazing testament to validus' durability. thumb up

Originally posted by operator616
Inapplicable. Since it was an amped Validus.

Tharok increased all of the Legion's/FF's abilities. It was even outright stated that Validus became more powerful:

http://i.imgur.com/g1P74TE.jpg

Here's also an official index confirming it:

http://i.imgur.com/JU0gSvH.jpg?1 had val not already been massively weakened prior to fending off that second sun-eater, i would agree that his amp played a factor... but he was, so i don't.

his first battle with a sun-eater left val "exhausted...charred...overwhelmed":
http://i.imgur.com/zds6dog.jpg

a mere 4 pages later, val manages to fend off the sun-eater that was about to kill projectra. she even commented that he was still wounded from his previous battle:
http://i.imgur.com/gLvxHqA.jpg

so yeah, given val's weakened state i'd say the feat is quite applicable. though if you don't want to use that showing, it's fine with me--there is still more than enough evidence to prove that he was FAR superior to silver age kryptonian-level beings, after all(which is all i have been trying to clarify.) smile

operator616

Originally posted by Galan007
so karate kid is stronger than validus, iyo? or would you rather do the logical thing and just chalk it up to PIS?

It's one of those instances where KK's super-retarded martial arts kicks in, and KK becomes near Superboy level.

Originally posted by Galan007
obviously it is not truly indestructible, otherwise ultra-boy and superboy wouldn't be able to break it. therefore the thickness of the inertron MUST play a factor in its inherent indestructibility.

brainiac's comment pertaining to the inertron box the MM was housed in is also worth mentioning:
http://i.imgur.com/nHV8cxk.jpg
"only the most cosmos-shaking emergency can get us to crack it out and turn it on again!" ie. he knew the inertron box *could* be broken, therefore he knew it was *not* truly indestructible.

Agreed. Never denied that it's not truly indestructible, especially considering i referenced examples where it was broken.

Originally posted by Galan007

the thread specifies "pre-crisis" validus. all of those scans are "pre-crisis". smile

Misunderstanding then. Because when you said "Silver Age" i thought you were referring to the specific era of the PC history (from late 50s till 1970, afterwards comes the bronze age till COIE). And only 2 of your scans were from that specific era (i distinguish between those 2 eras because Superboy/Superman were depowered at the end of SA, which is noteworthy since it's ultimately related to Validus' power level)

Though i guess you were using "silver age" in the sense that it's pre-crisis. So a small misunderstanding it is.

Originally posted by Galan007

well good. but why did you post those inertron scans, then? it certainly *seemed* like you were implying that superboy-level beings>validus, because they broke thin inertron, while val couldn't break thick inertron..?

if that was not your intention, then i apologize.

Nobody in their right mind should argue that Superboy-level > Validus. I was posting those showings to look at the whole picture. Because you've got people like Prof. McAbe, who literally look at one thing; the instances where Validus is shown to be far superior to Superboy, who in turn pulls a galaxy worth of planets (while ignoring all his other showings, which blatantly show that he doesn't operate on this level on average, some of which i already mentioned, and the same thing with Validus in turn as well). And with that reason, he's apparently saying that Validus is superior to Odin. Same with Lord of Brooklyn, who ignores all showings but the ones which make Validus shine.

Hell, i myself said multiple times in this same thread that Validus is above Superboy. Which is impressive, but let's not pretend as if this somehow puts him on Odin's level. So yes, it was definitely not my intention.

Originally posted by Galan007

i'm not assuming anything. just pointing out a statement that superboy himself made. it's ultimately inconsequential to this debate though.

Cool, i just wanted to make sure that it's clear that all those 3 are Superboy-level beings who did that to Validus. Mon-el, Superboy, and Ultra-boy's (individual abilities) are regarded as peers most throughout the entire history.

Originally posted by Galan007

okay? it still took a surprise attack from all 3 of them at once to incapacitate him. thumb up

by a surprise attack from all 3 of them simultaneously, you mean? am i supposed to consider it a low-end showing when it takes THREE silver-age-superboy-level beings to incapacitate val with a cheap-shot attack? because frankly, i think it is an amazing testament to validus' durability. thumb up

Considering you yourself posted instances where Validus no sells Mon-el's attacks; and Superboy's even in the SA where he was stronger; i don't think that's true.

Either way, it goes to show how Validus compares to Odin.

Originally posted by Galan007
had val not already been massively weakened prior to fending off that second sun-eater, i would agree that his amp played a factor... but he was, so i don't.

his first battle with a sun-eater left val "exhausted...charred...overwhelmed":
http://i.imgur.com/zds6dog.jpg

a mere 4 pages later, val manages to fend off the sun-eater that was about to kill projectra. she even commented that he was still wounded from his previous battle:
http://i.imgur.com/gLvxHqA.jpg

so yeah, given val's weakened state i'd say the feat is quite applicable. though if you don't want to use that showing, it's fine with me--there is still more than enough evidence to prove that he was FAR superior to silver age kryptonian-level beings, after all(which is all i have been trying to clarify.) smile

I can see your point but one can easily disagree with it. Because you're assuming that his weakened state was enough to negate his amp even though no such thing was stated.

Especially considering that SE was confirmed to dwarf the whole Legion/Fatal Five, Validus included:

http://i.imgur.com/1ni5jon.jpg?1

And all i was trying to say is that Validus isn't in Odin's league. Which is obvious, tbh.

Galan007

Originally posted by operator616
It's one of those instances where KK's super-retarded martial arts kicks in, and KK becomes near Superboy level.

Agreed. Never denied that it's not truly indestructible, especially considering i referenced examples where it was broken.

Misunderstanding then. Because when you said "Silver Age" i thought you were referring to the specific era of the PC history (from late 50s till 1970, afterwards comes the bronze age till COIE). And only 2 of your scans were from that specific era (i distinguish between those 2 eras because Superboy/Superman were depowered at the end of SA, which is noteworthy since it's ultimately related to Validus' power level)

Though i guess you were using "silver age" in the sense that it's pre-crisis. So a small misunderstanding it is.

Nobody in their right mind should argue that Superboy-level > Validus. I was posting those showings to look at the whole picture. Because you've got people like Prof. McAbe, who literally look at one thing; the instances where Validus is shown to be far superior to Superboy, who in turn pulls a galaxy worth of planets (while ignoring all his other showings, which blatantly show that he doesn't operate on this level on average, some of which i already mentioned, and the same thing with Validus in turn as well). And with that reason, he's apparently saying that Validus is superior to Odin. Same with Lord of Brooklyn, who ignores all showings but the ones which make Validus shine.

Hell, i myself said multiple times in this same thread that Validus is above Superboy. Which is impressive, but let's not pretend as if this somehow puts him on Odin's level. So yes, it was definitely not my intention.

Cool, i just wanted to make sure that it's clear that all those 3 are Superboy-level beings who did that to Validus. Mon-el, Superboy, and Ultra-boy's (individual abilities) are regarded as peers most throughout the entire history.

Considering you yourself posted instances where Validus no sells Mon-el's attacks; and Superboy's even in the SA where he was stronger; i don't think that's true.

Either way, it goes to show how Validus compares to Odin. thumb up

Originally posted by operator616
I can see your point but one can easily disagree with it. Because you're assuming that his weakened state was enough to negate his amp even though no such thing was stated.it was stated, however, that validus was "exhausted" after his battle with the first sun-eater fragment(i posted the scan above.)

-exhaust-
1. To use all of someone's mental or physical energy : to tire out or wear out (someone) completely.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exhaust

so per the specific verbiage used in that scene, val's amp was negated--or more accurately: it was exhausted. smile

Originally posted by operator616
Especially considering that SE was confirmed to dwarf the whole Legion/Fatal Five, Validus included:

http://i.imgur.com/1ni5jon.jpg?1 and then the sun-eater fractionated its enormous power into 8 different components--and an 'exhausted' validus was powerful enough to fend off one of those components. this does not mean validus>a sun-eater fragment, however. it just means that he was able to put up enough of a fight that the sun-eater felt the need to retreat/regroup. still very impressive given the circumstances, though.

Originally posted by operator616
And all i was trying to say is that Validus isn't in Odin's league. Which is obvious, tbh. i agree. ergo my initial opinion on the outcome of this match. thumb up

operator616

I know what exhaust means. And exhaust doesn't mean to permanently lose a part of your energy. It means to become tired, and it doesn't last on a permanent basis, it's temporarily.

So the way i interpret that scene: Validus, amped, battles SE and is overwhelmed becoming exhausted and tired, then pulls himself together (while sustaining some wounds and without losing the amp) and goes on to battle the 1/8 part of it.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but that's honestly how i see it. And that's all ill say on this part of the subject

Galan007

as the dictionary defines it, 'exhaust' means to lose ALL of one's power. that said, val came out of the first battle with a sun-eater completely drained, but was able to dig deep and conjure what little of his power remained a scant 4 pages later, when he saved projectra by fending off the second sun-eater.

i absolutely do not think the injured/drained validus who took on the second sun-eater was more powerful than his standard/healthy self, given the aforementioned statements+his artistic depiction during the scene(s), but that's just me.

agreeing to disagree is fine, though. after all, even if we agreed on my interpretation of the scene, it still wouldn't put val remotely close to odin's level. thumb up

Delta1938

Originally posted by deathslash
I'm really enjoying seeing the arguments for and against Odin and Validus. This was actually a pretty good thread.

I concur.

operator616

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Yes, post Odin feats thumb up

So,

He's defeated Surtur several times. In JiM #99, he battles Surtur and ultimately traps him inside the earth, and draws upon all the electro-magnetic particles in the universe too. Surtur also admits that he cannot harm Odin.

2nd time in JiM #104. Surtur transforms into galaxy-busting energy, and Thor with a single swing of Odin's sword owned Surtur easily. (should be noted that Surtur's defeat was specifically attributed to Odin's sword, all Thor did was swing it).

3rd time in Thor #177: After Odin survives the dimension of death (after which he came off at half power, because as Thor #188 reveals, Hela sliced a portion of Odin's soul which later became "infinity" while he was in her dimension, and that was before Odin confronted Surtur), then goes on to defeat Surtur while at half power.

4th time in Thor #349. Odin and his 2 brothers merge together to defeat Surtur w/ twilight sword, and they destroy the sword .Note that it was revealed in that same comic, that his 2 brothers later sacrificed themselves and empowered Odin to create the Odin-power which we all know (so basically, current Odin = Odin + his brothers when they were young), so the Odin with his 2 brothers destroying the twilight sword (which btw, was capable of warping all reality in the first arc of Avengers v3) is a feat that can be attributed to current Odin. And it's confirmed in Thor #353 as well. (note, that happened after we were shown Surtur destroying a galaxy while forging the sword in Thor #337, and was regarded as a universal threat if he got his hands on the eternal flame

In Thor #400, Odin absorbed Surtur (though that was after he was defeated)

Thor v3 #7: Odin pretty much battles Surtur everyday in some dimensional limbo after he perished in Thor v2 #40 at the hands of Surtur.

JiM #98: Defeats Ymir, who was shown to be Surtur's equal in Avengers v1 #61 and in Thor #425.

Thor #144-145: Battles Forsung across the universe, destroying stars and planets across the whole cosmos, and their battle was also elevated beyond time and space (Thor v2 retelling confirms this).

Thor #184-188: fought Infinity, in a battle which destroyed galaxies. And easily repaired the damage afterwards. The official index explicitly states that he restored the whole universe, which gives us an idea just how destructive their battle was. And it should be noted that Infinity was basically a portion of Odin. And it's later revealed in Quasar #19 reveals that Odin actually tapped into the abstract Infinity's power in that instance too.

JiM #513: Odin's battle with Seth destroyed many galaxies and was waged on every plane of existence.

The Mangog instances have already been mentioned, though ill repeat the one in Thor #198 where Odin cut Mangog from his power source while he possessed the Odin sword which was confirmed as a universe buster at that time period (JiM #117, Thor #127, 154-157, 184-188, 249-250 all confirm it).

Thor Annual #5: Odin and his brothers create the whole Asgardian dimension, and the countless stars (note: current Odin alone should be able to do that, since it was later revealed that Odin's brothers sacrificed themselves to imbue Odin with Odin-power, though that wasn't until #349 so it's questionable; but even still, creating 1/3 of a universe is still impressive).

Odin was defeating Uthana Thoth in Thor #620 and would have had it not been for Thela's intervention; same Uthana Thoth who was confirmed to will their universe to live (his universe was dying, and he willed it to be alive, it was revealed that if he let's go, it'll collapse).

Mighty Thor #4: as already mentioned, Odin KOes fed Galactus for a while.

Mighty Thor #21: Odin deflects/manipulates Surtur's energies which were enough to destroy the whole universe.

Recently in OS (Thor & Loki), Odin was revealed to have cut the tenth realm entirely from the Yggdrasil tree and erase any memory of it.

There are more showings for him which can put him above Validus, but those do for sure.

Take ONE showing out of all those, and it's better than anything Validus has done. Ever.

PS. If you need any scans, let me know.

Galan007

Originally posted by operator616
Mighty Thor #4: as already mentioned, Odin KOes fed Galactus for a while. #5, you mean? if so, that wasn't long after thor had 'wounded' galactus with this cheap-shot:
http://i.imgur.com/QV5nChq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/i4ekWlU.jpg

confirmation:
http://i.imgur.com/pk3gVy7.jpg

either way, stalemating galactus for as long as odin did beforehand--heck, even briefly KO'ing a slightly wounded galactus--is far beyond anything val has done. val's 'brickness' can only get him so far against an opponent as powerful(and as versatile) as odin. thumb up

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616

Mighty Thor #21: Odin deflects/manipulates Surtur's energies which were enough to destroy the whole universe.

Hey there friend. I didn't see Odin actually "deflect" those energies,
I believe Odin only shunted/directed the energies to Asgard-Space through a portal.
(I recall the energies touching nothing, cause they were shunted quickly after being released)
... meh, perhaps it could be interpreted as some form of manipulation,
but it does not mean Odin over-powered those energies imo.

Akin to Owen shunting/directing Beyonder's energies to another space.
Of course, we know Owen was not able to actually deflect/manipulate B's power,
especially not in his condition when said task was performed.

That aside, it's true they were stated to be universal energies
yet the fire couldn't even destroy the realm of Asgard-Space. (which was still a pocket at the time)

I don't know.

Rage.Of.Olympus

It was outright stated that only Odin could control/contain such powerful energies and it said he "negated" them.

I mean he exploded, and instead of killing everyone, Odin directed them into Asgard were no damage was done.

No, Asgard Space, the home realm of Asgardians, was firmly confirmed to be a fully fledged Universe by then.

And I'm pretty sure Surtur said he had enough power to kill the Nine Worlds but I'm on my phone so I'm not sure.

Galan007

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And I'm pretty sure Surtur said he had enough power to kill the Nine Worlds but I'm on my phone so I'm not sure. http://i.imgur.com/y6efrFj.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/WwbotHm.jpg

Branlor Swift

Originally posted by operator616
So,

He's defeated Surtur several times. In JiM #99, he battles Surtur and ultimately traps him inside the earth, and draws upon all the electro-magnetic particles in the universe too. Surtur also admits that he cannot harm Odin.

2nd time in JiM #104. Surtur transforms into galaxy-busting energy, and Thor with a single swing of Odin's sword owned Surtur easily. (should be noted that Surtur's defeat was specifically attributed to Odin's sword, all Thor did was swing it).

3rd time in Thor #177: After Odin survives the dimension of death (after which he came off at half power, because as Thor #188 reveals, Hela sliced a portion of Odin's soul which later became "infinity" while he was in her dimension, and that was before Odin confronted Surtur), then goes on to defeat Surtur while at half power.

4th time in Thor #349. Odin and his 2 brothers merge together to defeat Surtur w/ twilight sword, and they destroy the sword .Note that it was revealed in that same comic, that his 2 brothers later sacrificed themselves and empowered Odin to create the Odin-power which we all know (so basically, current Odin = Odin + his brothers when they were young), so the Odin with his 2 brothers destroying the twilight sword (which btw, was capable of warping all reality in the first arc of Avengers v3) is a feat that can be attributed to current Odin. And it's confirmed in Thor #353 as well. (note, that happened after we were shown Surtur destroying a galaxy while forging the sword in Thor #337, and was regarded as a universal threat if he got his hands on the eternal flame

In Thor #400, Odin absorbed Surtur (though that was after he was defeated)

Thor v3 #7: Odin pretty much battles Surtur everyday in some dimensional limbo after he perished in Thor v2 #40 at the hands of Surtur.

JiM #98: Defeats Ymir, who was shown to be Surtur's equal in Avengers v1 #61 and in Thor #425.

Thor #144-145: Battles Forsung across the universe, destroying stars and planets across the whole cosmos, and their battle was also elevated beyond time and space (Thor v2 retelling confirms this).

Thor #184-188: fought Infinity, in a battle which destroyed galaxies. And easily repaired the damage afterwards. The official index explicitly states that he restored the whole universe, which gives us an idea just how destructive their battle was. And it should be noted that Infinity was basically a portion of Odin. And it's later revealed in Quasar #19 reveals that Odin actually tapped into the abstract Infinity's power in that instance too.

JiM #513: Odin's battle with Seth destroyed many galaxies and was waged on every plane of existence.

The Mangog instances have already been mentioned, though ill repeat the one in Thor #198 where Odin cut Mangog from his power source while he possessed the Odin sword which was confirmed as a universe buster at that time period (JiM #117, Thor #127, 154-157, 184-188, 249-250 all confirm it).

Thor Annual #5: Odin and his brothers create the whole Asgardian dimension, and the countless stars (note: current Odin alone should be able to do that, since it was later revealed that Odin's brothers sacrificed themselves to imbue Odin with Odin-power, though that wasn't until #349 so it's questionable; but even still, creating 1/3 of a universe is still impressive).

Odin was defeating Uthana Thoth in Thor #620 and would have had it not been for Thela's intervention; same Uthana Thoth who was confirmed to will their universe to live (his universe was dying, and he willed it to be alive, it was revealed that if he let's go, it'll collapse).

Mighty Thor #4: as already mentioned, Odin KOes fed Galactus for a while.

Mighty Thor #21: Odin deflects/manipulates Surtur's energies which were enough to destroy the whole universe.

Recently in OS (Thor & Loki), Odin was revealed to have cut the tenth realm entirely from the Yggdrasil tree and erase any memory of it.

There are more showings for him which can put him above Validus, but those do for sure.

Take ONE showing out of all those, and it's better than anything Validus has done. Ever.

PS. If you need any scans, let me know. A good one to mention is that when Surtur and Seth were running amok and Odin basically split his powers between the energies of Asgard and his Odinpower within to give to Thor and himself and they both physically engaged Seth/Surtur.

And considering your "inertron" arguments. There's Odin basically one shotting Serpent who effortlessly tore Cap's shield to shreds.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

It was outright stated that only Odin could control/contain such powerful energies and it said he "negated" them.

I mean he exploded, and instead of killing everyone, Odin directed them into Asgard were no damage was done.
Hey there Rage.

This is what I got from that particular story, if thing's have changed since, that's another tale.

1) All the power Surtur collected wasn't enough to burn the other dimension, known as the "Sea of Space" or "Asgard-Space."
2) Surtur nor Odin ever acted on an actual "Universal" scale in this arc.
3) Odin never affected any Eternity and/or any Universe's Space-Time.
4) Odin never blocked/contained Surtur's fire. Odin did shunt them like Owen shunted Beyonder's energies.

The Feat:

5) Odin was able to open a Conduit and shunt Surtur's fire into the the dimension containing Asgard.

---------------------------------------------------

Imo had Odin negated the fires he wouldn't have to direct them through the portal where they were still burning.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

No, Asgard Space, the home realm of Asgardians,
was firmly confirmed to be a fully fledged Universe by then.
You're a true debater, so I believe you, but can I have some proof?

Although it doesn't matter much since it didn't burn it all up be it a pocket of full universe.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

And I'm pretty sure Surtur said he had enough power to kill the Nine Worlds but I'm on my phone so I'm not sure.
It was stated. But as we both know when they were released,
they didn't even burn up all of Asgard's dimension.

operator616

Originally posted by Galan007
#5, you mean? if so, that wasn't long after thor had 'wounded' galactus with this cheap-shot:
http://i.imgur.com/QV5nChq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/i4ekWlU.jpg

confirmation:
http://i.imgur.com/pk3gVy7.jpg

Right, i was 1 issue off, my mistake.

Meh. Thor basically made a small crack. Considering that Odin and Galactus were still stalemating each other even after Thor's cheap-shot, id say Thor's attack did not do any significant damage.

Originally posted by Galan007

either way, stalemating galactus for as long as odin did beforehand--heck, even briefly KO'ing a slightly wounded galactus--is far beyond anything val has done. val's 'brickness' can only get him so far against an opponent as powerful(and as versatile) as odin. thumb up

Pretty much. thumb up

Originally posted by Galan007
http://i.imgur.com/y6efrFj.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/WwbotHm.jpg

I don't think that's what rage was referring to.

Surtur was a universal power, but became a multiversal threat through the otherworld nexus. But when the nexus exploitation was denied to him, Surtur was still a threat to all the nine realms. Here's the scan he was referring to:

http://i.imgur.com/tCDQZq1.jpg?1

And it's confirmed in the retelling of the next issue:

http://i.imgur.com/zJW0E4R.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
Hey there friend. I didn't see Odin actually "deflect" those energies,
I believe Odin only shunted/directed the energies to Asgard-Space through a portal.
(I recall the energies touching nothing, cause they were shunted quickly after being released)
... meh, perhaps it could be interpreted as some form of manipulation,
but it does not mean Odin over-powered those energies imo.

Akin to Owen shunting/directing Beyonder's energies to another space.
Of course, we know Owen was not able to actually deflect/manipulate B's power,
especially not in his condition when said task was performed.

That aside, it's true they were stated to be universal energies
yet the fire couldn't even destroy the realm of Asgard-Space. (which was still a pocket at the time)

I don't know.

How is it not a manipulation if Odin outright took control of those energies and manipulated them to a specific location?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
A good one to mention is that when Surtur and Seth were running amok and Odin basically split his powers between the energies of Asgard and his Odinpower within to give to Thor and himself and they both physically engaged Seth/Surtur.

And considering your "inertron" arguments. There's Odin basically one shotting Serpent who effortlessly tore Cap's shield to shreds.

Yeah. And im pretty sure it was an amped Seth, who's absorbed the power of several egyptian gods. And even before he did that, Seth has been shown/stated to drain stars prior to that, while unamped.

operator616

Originally posted by Mr Master

You're a true debater, so I believe you, but can I have some proof?

Although it doesn't matter much since it didn't burn it all up be it a pocket of full universe.

It was stated. But as we both know when they were released,
they didn't even burn up all of Asgard's dimension.

They've been described as being fully formed universes before the everythng burns arc.

http://i.imgur.com/kab1nFr.jpg

This is Thor #616 (part of The World Eaters arc). 2010.

And that's also at that same time period.

Branlor Swift

Originally posted by operator616
I don't think that's what rage was referring to.

Surtur was a universal power, but became a multiversal threat through the otherworld nexus. But when the nexus exploitation was denied to him, Surtur was still a threat to all the nine realms. Here's the scan he was referring to:

http://i.imgur.com/tCDQZq1.jpg?1

And it's confirmed in the retelling of the next issue:

http://i.imgur.com/zJW0E4R.jpg Here's another threat to the Nine Worlds as Enchantress was chopping at the Worldtree
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg30.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg31.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg34.jpg

And what the Nine Worlds meant
"It wasn't one world we had saved. It was all worlds. It wasn't one reality. It was all realities."
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg37.jpg

"all of creation destroyed"
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg29.jpg

Basically, if Surtur's energy being released was going to destroy the nine realms, it was going to do a lot of damage to say the least. Pretty uber for Odin to casually manipulate that.

Also, that Thor 616 scan says there are more universes inside the nine worlds as well.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/Thor616-007.jpg

Which is backed up by Thor stating that thousands of realities are being smashed into each other as the Nine Worlds are being attacked:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg21.jpg

So if Surtur was indeed going to destroy the Nine Worlds in full, then there's a good chance it was going to extend beyond that to the "hidden universes". Though it's a bit of a stretch, but there's evidence to suggest.

operator616

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Here's another threat to the Nine Worlds as Enchantress was chopping at the Worldtree
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg30.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg31.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg34.jpg

And what the Nine Worlds meant
"It wasn't one world we had saved. It was all worlds. It wasn't one reality. It was all realities."
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg37.jpg

"all of creation destroyed"
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg29.jpg

Basically, if Surtur's energy being released was going to destroy the nine realms, it was going to do a lot of damage to say the least. Pretty uber for Odin to casually manipulate that.

Also, that Thor 616 scan says there are more universes inside the nine worlds as well.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/Thor616-007.jpg

Which is backed up by Thor stating that thousands of realities are being smashed into each other as the Nine Worlds are being attacked:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Cosmic/ThorGod-SizedSpecial01pg21.jpg

So if Surtur was indeed going to destroy the Nine Worlds in full, then there's a good chance it was going to extend beyond that to the "hidden universes". Though it's a bit of a stretch, but there's evidence to suggest.

That's an interesting idea, and i guess the fact that all of those are written by Fraction it's possible to make the link between all of them.

Galan007

a88378438

Originally posted by operator616
I really like how you're using this "billions of times" literally so that you could justify the showing.

Amped Validus was stalemating it for minutes, with planetary force though:

http://i.imgur.com/CRVAb98.jpg

And you'll notice that amped Persuader's axe (which is equal to Mano's touch, which at best is planet busting) outright split it.

So that ought to help you understand that it wasn't literally billions of times. Though it did dwarf them. And it's still low skyfather at best.

You realize that the fact that the SE has a weakness in its nucleus (which is its core) is irrelevant here? Because Tharok specifically mentioned that the bomb will absorb all its power, so Superboy would be essentially tanking all its power. Same conclusion, Superboy's durability is apparently greater than SE's.

Here's a superman comic (pre-ZH), another SE of the original's caliber, where Wildfire, Lightning Lad and Superman blast their way through SE and hold their own, until they detonate it (and my problem isn't with the detonation, so don't come at me saying that "it's nucleus" it's with them holding their own and blasting it):

http://i.imgur.com/EBTsyyL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lgEJ2I9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Hcyn3Kd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/89TrAgd.jpg

Clearly above Odin.

No, it's just you can't counter anything, so you say that it's an excuse. We get it.

Well actually the revelation wasn't at the time of COIE, it was after a year or so after that. Though your bio is after that. But that's not the point at all. Because even before that Time Trapper was considered a peer to Darkseid (the early '87 bio, which is before the revelation of Trapper's pocket, says that). And there, they said that his personal abilities weren't known.

With that said. You're missing the most important point. Darkseid is literally known best for GDS only. Where he was amped. That's why Infinite Man and Trapper were compared to him, since while amped he was a foe of their class.

Neither did the white witch mentioned that "not since amped Darkseid did i sense such power", she merely said Darkseid. But we know everyone is referring to GDS Darkseid. It's blatantly clear.

Though i guess Darkseid is above Odin only because of two statements comparing him to Time Trapper. Even though they're misinterpreted to begin with.

The flames was Orikal's weakness obviously. So it's weakness exploitation.

You're missing the point. You mentioned that Mangog gets felled by a punch of Thor's and then compare this to Validus no selling Superboy's punches. So you're saying that Mangog's average is getting felled by a punch of Thor right? I mean, for real?

I don't care that you don't use them.

That's really great that you think that Superboy is great than Thor and Odin combined physically. Which is just retarded. I already mentioned what Superboy's average is, and i can continue if you want, but im not gonna repeat myself. Though you're right that Mangos can't lick Validus' boots. Though we're talking about Mangog here.

My opinion are based on facts.

I do, though i can see why you think it's irrelevant. Since if it wasn't, then Validus wouldn't be comparable to Odin, which he isn't.

Doesn't mean that Mangog couldn't. Unless you think Mano is more powerful than him.

Superman traversing infinite gravity and surviving the big bang? You wouldn't happen to be referring to Action Comics #553-554 would you?

Because you do realize that he only held for a while and eventually died? It was outright stated that when Superman is subjected to the Big Bang even he could not survive:

http://i.imgur.com/2MhUdGt.jpg?1

And it's stated in the next issue that Superman disappeared and vanished (in other words, he died):

http://i.imgur.com/nnIv157.jpg

And the only way Superman was resurrected was when in the altered Earth kids recreated the hero concept and people started believing in it, which returned Superman and the Earth to normality:

http://i.imgur.com/AsTn3iM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/89uyOpt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QEGtQ8d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JvxGnc1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tQiUYLy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2itr9Qm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/u19CuIM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/veOU2OE.jpg

Superman couldn't survive the full big bang by any means. It was established in Showcase #61 that even Pre-Crisis Spectre can't survive the full power of the Big Bang, but you think Superman can? laughing out loud

BA Superman was = 2/3 SA Superman though, barring the time when he let his inhibitions off in Superman #321 or some other time iirc. Since 1/3 of his strength was permanently removed. And Superboy was unofficially depowered in turn. So 3 BA Superboy level characters KOing Validus doesn't look good for him.
It's very cleary superman withstand big bang but after reality change ,big bang not destroy superman,but time/space change superman vanish

Epicurus

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
And considering your "inertron" arguments. There's Odin basically one shotting Serpent who effortlessly tore Cap's shield to shreds.
Added bonus to that feat is the fact that a JiM comic implied the Serpent to be well above Cyttorak, who by himself has beaten the shit out of the rest of the Octessence(most of whom range from the trans tier to low skyfather), not to mention the way he punked 2/5ths of the Phoenix Force in his realm.

Epicurus

Originally posted by Mr Master
You're a true debater, so I believe you, but can I have some proof?
In the recent Angela/Thor crossover, they literally stated that the nine realms(plus the hidden 10th Realm where Angela was kidnapped), are full-fledged universes.

You can just type the keywords "Angela Thor Marvel" in google and get all the comics pertinent to that storyline. thumb up

operator616

Originally posted by a88378438
It's very cleary superman withstand big bang but after reality change ,big bang not destroy superman,but time/space change superman vanish

A statement doubting that Superman survived the big bang + the fact that he vanished says otherwise.

And Superman didn't vanish because time/space changed, because he's the one who changed it, and should have stayed alive in that altered Earth.

But anyway. Superman definitely didn't survive the full power of the big bang, he only held for a while and eventually succumbed similar to what the time sphere did. Which has consistently shown to have awful durability.

After all, this same type of time sphere which "survived" the big bang (2 times, before AC #553 we also got a AC #552 flashback to the exact same thing), was broken when it crashed into the ground in DC Comics Presents #37:

http://i.imgur.com/b7po2Te.jpg

And here are various issues from the Rip Hunter...Time Master v1 pre-Crisis series

Being blasted out of the sky by conventional anti-aircraft weaponry:

http://i.imgur.com/Wk004JM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/W6XtjZd.jpg

A random monster crashing it:

http://i.imgur.com/lgN2Uo7.jpg

another one:

http://i.imgur.com/2bz3i6Q.jpg

etc.. (there are more)

Or i could also reference showings from the Showcase v1 (late 50s Rip Hunter comics) where Time sphere was threatened by boulders, random lasers and whatnot.

And it held the exact same time before Superman "vanished"/died (had the time sphere not been consistently shown to have terrible durability i wouldn't be bringing this up....but fact is, it has). Proving that holding temporarily is not that big of a feat (because it's not like they were at the very heart of it anyway).

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616

Surtur was a universal power
Solely based on statements due to him absorbing energy from the nine realms or whatever.
Originally posted by operator616

but became a multiversal threat through the otherworld nexus.
thumb up

I knew that good friend.

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616

How is it not a manipulation if Odin outright took control of those energies and manipulated them to a specific location?
I did say it could be seen as manipulation, but realistically,
all Odin did was direct the fire towards the portal where they still burned.
I don't think Odin over-powered those fires, which is why he had to guide them elsewhere instead.

Like Owen did to Beyonder's power. But I'm sure we both agree Owen was not > B at the time. (pre/or post)

Mr Master

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

So if Surtur was indeed going to destroy the Nine Worlds in full, then there's a good chance it was going to extend beyond that to the "hidden universes". Though it's a bit of a stretch, but there's evidence to suggest.
But I'm confused B, not yur fault, it's the story.
The "fires" that were supposed to destroy the nine universes and then some ... were released in Full ...

... how is it they couldn't even destroy the single universe known as Asgard-Space?

-------------------------------------------

All they need is a "Conduit" to get rid of this problem.
Thor doesn't have the power to get this done. Welcome Odin.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16033018_Sur13.jpg

Odin was in the other Reality that housed Asgard, known as Asgard Space:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16033019_Sur14.jpg

============================

The Odin scenario:

============================

So, Odin is in the Sea of Space, Davis chose the other term used, "Asgard-Space,"
which is nowadays a standalone full universe.
Odin is tricked by Loki & Leah to help Thor.
Odin opens a dimensional-portal and they appear on the battlefield with Surtur:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16033020_Sur15.jpg

------------------------------------------

Surtur explodes, the great fire-power is released in Full!.
Odin does not block, absorb or withstand the flames,
instead he shunts the flames through the portal he came from: ("Conduit" they needed)

Odin directing the flames through the portal:

============================

Cool.

So, what happened to the "all-consuming" Flame-Power Surtur had collected?

Where did Odin guide these energies to?

Did they burn away an entire Universe where they landed?

===========================

Odin is pissed not only cause he was tricked into helping Thor,
but also cause the place where he guided Surtur's burning-power through the portal
was "Asgard-Space"

Here's Odin, peering into a ball witnessing Surtur's Fire burning in Asgard-Space:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16032764_Sur12.jpg

------------------------------------------

Odin opens another portal to "Asgard-Space" (we see Fire withIN the portal)

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16032763_Sur11.jpg

Odin, and the chic, actually go to the universe where the Fire is, to watch ...

... so obviously the great Surtur Fire did Not explode or slag Asgard-Space entirely.

============================

So, what are we left with?

1) All the power Surtur collected was enough to burn the Dimension containing Asgard,
known as the "Sea of Space" or "Asgard-Space."

2) Surtur nor Odin ever acted on an actual "Universal" scale in this arc.

3) Odin never affected any Eternity and/or any Universe's Space-Time.

4) Odin was able to open a Conduit and shunt Surtur's power
into the Universe containing Asgard.

============================

IMO! based on what I read/saw.

This isn't universal manipulation imo.

Rage showed me Odin performing universal scale influence in the respect thread. Which I agree was. But this is not, imo.

a88378438

Originally posted by Mr Master
But I'm confused B, not yur fault, it's the story.
The "fires" that were supposed to destroy the nine universes and then some ... were released in Full ...

... how is it they couldn't even destroy the single universe known as Asgard-Space?

-------------------------------------------

All they need is a "Conduit" to get rid of this problem.
Thor doesn't have the power to get this done. Welcome Odin.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16033018_Sur13.jpg

Odin was in the other Reality that housed Asgard, known as Asgard Space:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16033019_Sur14.jpg

============================

The Odin scenario:

============================

So, Odin is in the Sea of Space, Davis chose the other term used, "Asgard-Space,"
which is nowadays a standalone full universe.
Odin is tricked by Loki & Leah to help Thor.
Odin opens a dimensional-portal and they appear on the battlefield with Surtur:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16033020_Sur15.jpg

------------------------------------------

Surtur explodes, the great fire-power is released in Full!.
Odin does not block, absorb or withstand the flames,
instead he shunts the flames through the portal he came from: ("Conduit" they needed)

Odin directing the flames through the portal:

============================

Cool.

So, what happened to the "all-consuming" Flame-Power Surtur had collected?

Where did Odin guide these energies to?

Did they burn away an entire Universe where they landed?

===========================

Odin is pissed not only cause he was tricked into helping Thor,
but also cause the place where he guided Surtur's burning-power through the portal
was "Asgard-Space"

Here's Odin, peering into a ball witnessing Surtur's Fire burning in Asgard-Space:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16032764_Sur12.jpg

------------------------------------------

Odin opens another portal to "Asgard-Space" (we see Fire withIN the portal)

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16032763_Sur11.jpg

Odin, and the chic, actually go to the universe where the Fire is, to watch ...

... so obviously the great Surtur Fire did Not explode or slag Asgard-Space entirely.

============================

So, what are we left with?

1) All the power Surtur collected was enough to burn the Dimension containing Asgard,
known as the "Sea of Space" or "Asgard-Space."

2) Surtur nor Odin ever acted on an actual "Universal" scale in this arc.

3) Odin never affected any Eternity and/or any Universe's Space-Time.

4) Odin was able to open a Conduit and shunt Surtur's power
into the Universe containing Asgard.

============================

IMO! based on what I read/saw.

This isn't universal manipulation imo.

Rage showed me Odin performing universal scale influence in the respect thread. Which I agree was. But this is not, imo.
Respect Mr Master I want to know your point for beyonder and doom,I sent a PM....

panthergod

So no one countered the lie that GDS Darkseid was. Amped above standard level, when he said with the combined power of multiple Skyfathers ( Mordru, Controller Time Trapper) was still explicitly INFERIOR to standard Darkseid eh? Lmaooo.

DS and Highfather are trans tier? DS and Izaya repaired the Source, each created trans tiers Takion and Stayne respectively, Alpha Force Scott Free beat Black Racer an avatar of Death easily on par with Hela. Odin has nothing in his existence superior to standard DS. Marvel fantards are hilarious as usual

abhilegend

Where is Operator now? Sun destroyed Mangog.

Sun>>>Odin, eh?

operator616

Originally posted by panthergod
So no one countered the lie that GDS Darkseid was. Amped above standard level, when he said with the combined power of multiple Skyfathers ( Mordru, Controller Time Trapper) was still explicitly INFERIOR to standard Darkseid eh? Lmaooo.

DS and Highfather are trans tier? DS and Izaya repaired the Source, each created trans tiers Takion and Stayne respectively, Alpha Force Scott Free beat Black Racer an avatar of Death easily on par with Hela. Odin has nothing in his existence superior to standard DS. Marvel fantards are hilarious as usual

Many have tried to counter it, but all of them failed just like you did by mentioning that horrible out of context scan. thumb up

Yes they are trans tier. Although the new gods were mostly unaffected by the Crisis we were making a distinction between post and pre Darkseid for the purposes of this thread, so the feats you mentioned are irrelevant. The best pre-Crisis feat for Darkseid is imprisoning Infinity man and sealing that universe. Black racer (Except N52) isn't on par with Hela either.

"Marvel fantards" laughing out loud

you're basically in the upper echelon of superman's dick riding bandwagon, so your comments don't really have much merit.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Where is Operator now? Sun destroyed Mangog.

Sun>>>Odin, eh?

So he acquired a low showing. Big deal. You act like this happened for the first time, you should know better than anyone that Odin has more than a dozen lows. After all, it's your area of expertise.

cdtm

No pre crisis Doomsday or Odin?

Silver Age Odin would clear the field, in all seriousness.

abhilegend

Originally posted by operator616
Many have tried to counter it, but all of them failed just like you did by mentioning that horrible out of context scan. thumb up

Regarding what?

If new gods like Darkseid are trans tier, Odin will be herald tier.

Prove Hela is remotely as impressive as Black Racer who was one of the faces of true Death alongside Nekron and Death of Endless.

You ride marvel skyfather dick, so shouldn't talk about dick riding.

No, tell me how Mangog is more powerful than Validus and Odin is more powerful than Darkseid.

Or Grandmaster is more powerful than DC skyfathers.

operator616

Originally posted by abhilegend
Regarding what?

If new gods like Darkseid are trans tier, Odin will be herald tier.

That Darkseid was amped in GDS.

Yes, you've made your opinion quite clear on the matter. Needless to say, i disagree.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Prove Hela is remotely as impressive as Black Racer who was one of the faces of true Death alongside Nekron and Death of Endless.
.

Racer is an aspect of death as much as hela is. Which is to say, death to a particular pantheon (Racer to new gods, Hela to asgardians). Let's not compare them to the true abstracts shall we? I know he's been stated to be one of three aspects but it's outright false.

And he seems to be unable to do his job properly. He failed to claim Fastback, for instance.

https://imgur.com/a/U7BXgv5

In another case, he failed to claim lightray too, who evaded him and eventually was bfr'd by Metron.

Hela has casually owned Thor, stalemated pluto, was superior to Kurse (in their 2nd encounter), a Hela/Mephisto battle was stated to cause potentially omniversal armageddon (most likely hyperbole, but the point still stands she can match mephisto), she also at one point manipulated mjolnir iirc (few have replicated such a feat). I know Hela has been unimpressive at times, but at least she has some cool feats unlike black racer.

Originally posted by abhilegend

You ride marvel skyfather dick, so shouldn't talk about dick riding.

This wasn't directed at you so why are you responding? Anyway, i can show you where i have always debated against Zeus, constantly reminding people that he's not as impressive as some think. Odin is a different matter since he actually has impressive showings. I give credit where credit is due.

Originally posted by abhilegend

No, tell me how Mangog is more powerful than Validus and Odin is more powerful than Darkseid.

Or Grandmaster is more powerful than DC skyfathers.

The answer to all your questions lie in this thread.

Rage.Of.Olympus

Full power Odin sweeps the field. Nothing's changed.

Also, abhil just bumped a 4 year old thread boasting about a comic that was just recently posted. The level of petty idiocy that takes would make Luthor proud.

"Remember when you made me look like a trolling dumbass 4 years ago? Well here's something that happened last week that by even mentioning solidfies my stupidity."

@operator In context, Odin doesn't have a low showing. No one does. Only Mangog and Mjolnir in the last few pages of Thor #706 when they were destroyed by the Sun. Everything else was standard fair. Mangog was stated to be more powerful than Phoenix, the Destroyer, Odin and Sh'iar Gods.

All four of those accumulated feats throughout the run that gives us an idea that their ranking has not changed really. Even Odin who hasn't done much, we can compare to King Thor billions of years into the future.

cdtm

Op, GDS wasn't amped. He was weakened.

All those relics were to get him back to par, and they still weren't enough.

Rage.Of.Olympus

I think it's because he was stated to be fully stated before he completed his accumulating of power. He absorbed Mordru and what's his face after becoming full. He also demonstrated abilities beyond the standard fare after this. That's a reasonable assumption based on that evidence.

operator616

Originally posted by cdtm
Op, GDS wasn't amped. He was weakened.

All those relics were to get him back to par, and they still weren't enough.

Curious, did you read the thread? You act like i didn't address this. When he absorbed the relics he himself outright stated that he was "fulfilled", what does that tell you? And after that, he absorbed mordru and TT (revealed controller later on) powers. So he was most definitely amped. Hell, Mordru by himself is more powerful than standard Darkseid...

But that's not even the crux of the problem. Answer me this:

1. If you read the original New Gods comics, you'd know that the New Genesis/Apokolips war started specifically when boom tube (space warps) technology was developed to transport the warriors back and forth. So if Darkseid (who in GDS, suddenly started showcasing space warp abilities) was able to create space warps from the start it would contradict the entire New Gods history. Good luck with that.

2. Another thing with classic NG comics is that Darkseid was after the anti life equation, which was hidden inside the minds of 6 humans. If Darkseid could mind rape entire planets instantly (like he did in GDS to Daxam), why couldn't he do it to humans and extract the ALE instantly? Like for christ's sake, he was using machines to delve into human minds, and yet in GDS he was mind raping populations, as if that alone doesn't outright scream aaaaaaamp.

Go ahead and answer those inconsistencies.

panthergod

GDS Darkseid specifically states he is inferior to his modern era levels. No amount of whining changes that.

panthergod

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Full power Odin sweeps the field. Nothing's changed.

Also, abhil just bumped a 4 year old thread boasting about a comic that was just recently posted. The level of petty idiocy that takes would make Luthor proud.

"Remember when you made me look like a trolling dumbass 4 years ago? Well here's something that happened last week that by even mentioning solidfies my stupidity."

@operator In context, Odin doesn't have a low showing. No one does. Only Mangog and Mjolnir in the last few pages of Thor #706 when they were destroyed by the Sun. Everything else was standard fair. Mangog was stated to be more powerful than Phoenix, the Destroyer, Odin and Sh'iar Gods.

All four of those accumulated feats throughout the run that gives us an idea that their ranking has not changed really. Even Odin who hasn't done much, we can compare to King Thor billions of years into the future.

Sun>>Odin on panel to the laughable space cheese fetishists. No getting around this fact.

abhilegend

Originally posted by operator616
That Darkseid was amped in GDS.

Yes, you've made your opinion quite clear on the matter. Needless to say, i disagree.

He wasn't. You lied, get over it.

Where is Hela shown to be aspect of abstract Death.

Where is it shown to be false?

Right because two of the fastest new gods running away from him is supposed to show how weak he is.

How about Thor absolutely trouncing Hela like the whore she is?

Racer has no sold Superman, enveloped entire universes in his shadow and killed multiversal Darkseid.

Hela is nothing compared to Black Racer.

No, you just ride Odin to no end. It's amusing to say in the least.

Uh-huh. Sun>Mangog and mjolnir. Where is galaxy level Odin now?

abhilegend

Originally posted by operator616
Curious, did you read the thread? You act like i didn't address this. When he absorbed the relics he himself outright stated that he was "fulfilled", what does that tell you? And after that, he absorbed mordru and TT (revealed controller later on) powers. So he was most definitely amped. Hell, Mordru by himself is more powerful than standard Darkseid...

He was sated temporarily but later realized he was less powerful than his peak.

Nothing inconsistent about that.

Right, because Darkseid never showed that power later.

His powers were vague enough at that point where adding new powers was no more inconsistent than Odin randomly losing to space ants.

Answered in DOTNG as ALE makes you immune to such mind control.

Any more whining?

abhilegend

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Full power Odin sweeps the field. Nothing's changed.

Like he did to Jane Thor? Validus oneshots Odin at this point.

Right, cheerleading now. Good look for you.

laughing out loud

Odin cowered against Mangog like the ***** he is and got beat to a bloody pulp and it's not a low showing?

panthergod

This idiot is lso ignoring that DS absorbed multiple pantheons worth of power. But he's trans tier. Marvel Fantards continue to be entertaining clowns though.

Rage.Of.Olympus

Originally posted by abhilegend
Like he did to Jane Thor? Validus oneshots Odin at this point.

Right, cheerleading now. Good look for you.

laughing out loud

Odin cowered against Mangog like the ***** he is and got beat to a bloody pulp and it's not a low showing?

A weakened Odin going h2h would lose against PC Validus.

Dude, you bumped a 4 year thread over a showing with a large asterisk. You're pettier than a teenage girl.

Originally posted by panthergod
This idiot is lso ignoring that DS absorbed multiple pantheons worth of power. But he's trans tier. Marvel Fantards continue to be entertaining clowns though.

This is an interesting comment. It implies that absorbing the power of a pantheon is by definition Skyfather level (In the classic power level terms instead of status).

It also implies how much power you can absorb, is indicative of your power level, despite your base level?

I just want to clarify what your views are, so please, elaborate.

operator616

Originally posted by abhilegend
He wasn't. You lied, get over it.

You were talking out of your ass as usual. Get over it.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Where is Hela shown to be aspect of abstract Death.

Where is it shown to be false?

Right because two of the fastest new gods running away from him is supposed to show how weak he is.

She is the asgardian goddess of death and claims all the 9 realm's inhabitants when they die. That's equivalent to racer's role as being death of the new gods.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that racer is abstract level?

A guy who can't catch sub-flash feebs and gets bfr'd by metron, not to mention swatted away like a fly by Darkseid is... abstract level? laughing out loud

you're quite something aren't you.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Racer has no sold Superman, enveloped entire universes in his shadow and killed multiversal Darkseid.

Hela is nothing compared to Black Racer.

Enveloped universes? What in god's name are you talking about? Eagerly awaiting what out of context scans you have cooked up this time around.

Originally posted by abhilegend

No, you just ride Odin to no end. It's amusing to say in the least.

Uh-huh. Sun>Mangog and mjolnir. Where is galaxy level Odin now?

Im not the one who bumped a 4 year old thread cause i was butthurt.

It's still better than being threatened by moonrider's megaton touch though.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He was sated temporarily but later realized he was less powerful than his peak.

Nothing inconsistent about that.

You're misinterpreting again. All he did was state that his power has waned over the millennium, which we already knew. You went all gaga over it and thought that he's currently still not at full power. It's clear to anyone who's actually read the arc what he's referring to. And to ignore it is not only ignoring the plot of the arc, but downright being clueless on Darkseid's previously established powerset.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Right, because Darkseid never showed that power later.

His powers were vague enough at that point where adding new powers was no more inconsistent than Odin randomly losing to space ants.

They weren't vague at all. He couldn't open space warps, that much was established clearly. space warp/boom tube tech was the turning point in the new genesis/apokolips war, but i guess Darkseid had that ability all along but didn't use it for no reason whatsoever.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Answered in DOTNG as ALE makes you immune to such mind control.

Any more whining?

Goodness gracious. facepalm

Referencing a comic which came out 25 years later? You realize that the ALE and its power applications changed over the years? Back then, Darkseid was literally looking for a mathematical equation inside the morals' heads, you know that right?