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It feeds off of extreme emotions, that allow the user to access unnaturally advanced and devastating abilities (Force drain, dark side worm-hole) that seem to progress each other.

Then there's ritualistic powers unearthed by the Dathomirian Witches and by ancient Sith Sorcerers that allow for spells that can resurrect, and rituals that can immortalize and greatly empower the sorc.

The light side has nothing but probability selection (the Will of the Force), we always see the uber Sith Lords fail to actualize their terrible plans because their plans fall apart, which has nothing to do with the light side user who achieves victory.

Anakin, Luke, Revan, Mace Windu, and Galen Marek were all known to utilize the dark side to progress the cause of the light side, and were able to get extreme momentary amps in power because of it. Especially Revan, and Luke on DSII.

Yet because they were light side practitioners none of them could fully commit to the dark side, the two prime examples of those who fully committed past the point of insanity were DE Sidious and Vitiate who went above and beyond the full scope of their abilities, and then some.

The dark side gives lots of flashy power, the light side puts you in the right place at the right time when it really counts.

I wouldn't say they have NOTHING other than Will of the Force. But you may have answered your own question. The Light Siders can tap into the Will of the Force, which is very powerful. The Dark Siders try to impose their own will into the Force. That's much harder to do. Sith plans falling apart is no accident. The Light Sider must subordinate himself to the Force, but in return he gains a powerful ally - as Yoda might say.

Originally posted by Q99
The dark side gives lots of flashy power, the light side puts you in the right place at the right time when it really counts. I really do believe this.

As a fully devoted automaton of the light you put all your thoughts into those surrounding you, so that you can fully let go of your wants.

The dark side is the polar opposite, you're letting your natural self roam freely.

Both make their own luck, but one is making the Will of the Force actualize, and the other is making his most primal self actualize.

This is a great philosophy in my opinion. I'm a dark sider IRL. But not fully committed.

Neither the Dark nor the Lightside is stronger than the other. It is the practitioner that counts. Yes the darkside gives you destructive powers to wage war on the galaxy but the lightside is less destructive based, but that doesn't make it any less potent. You say the Dark siders have an advantage because they pull from extreme emotions but the lightside also has an advantage because they are trained to always have a calm mind. Do you want to be the destructive war lord or the stoic protector? Neither is stronger than the other persay

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Neither the Dark nor the Lightside is stronger than the other. It is the practitioner that counts. Yes the darkside gives you destructive powers to wage war on the galaxy but the lightside is less destructive based, but that doesn't make it any less potent. You say the Dark siders have an advantage because they pull from extreme emotions but the lightside also has an advantage because they are trained to always have a calm mind. Do you want to be the destructive war lord or the stoic protector? Neither is stronger than the other persay The dark side is a lot stronger, in pure energy terms of what one being has access to with his own will.

It's more exhausting, it's a constant struggle to hold onto that much hate and constantly fight the way of natural progress.

When both the light and Dark are taken to their fullest extent, the two are for all intents and purposes equal.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
When both the light and Dark are taken to their fullest extent, the two are for all intents and purposes equal. Think about fuel.

Calmness is shit-quality tractor fuel, hatred is like rocket booster fuel.

They say slow and steady wins the race, bullshit.

The Dark Side is just quicker and easier to wield, not stronger.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Dark Side is just quicker and easier to wield, not stronger. Thanks Yoda.

Incorrect interpretation.

You get want you want faster with the dark side. But ultimately what you think you want is different from what you need or truly would want.

Your powers, the scope of your abilities, all the things you can do to achieve your goals, are acquired more quickly with selfishness and hatred as your main driving force.

The dark side is way more taxing on the body and the mind, it destroys most.

If the Dark Side I s stronger than the Lightside then why are the respective embodiment of each (The Son and Daughter) equels?

Originally posted by WildBantha88
If the Dark Side I s stronger than the Lightside then why are the respective embodiment of each (The Son and Daughter) equels? Fully devoted practitioners of the dark side are on average stronger.

The Force itself has the same power whether it is evil, good, or neutral.

A Sith's ultimate directive is to turn the Force to the Dark Side by virtue of dominating the will of all life. Plagueis was unique in his approach of just dominating the midi-chlorians slowly over time. He wasn't quite subtle enough.

The Jedi try to disperse the power balance perfectly evenly, trusting in the goodness of life to remain peaceful. Converting the Force to the light.

The Force in general remains neutral.

The Dark Side is more destructive, but not stronger.

A dark sider will use more energy at greater cost than he would has a light sider.

Force drain and force harmony have the same amp, only Force drain is collected into the individual and can keep the newly harnessed energy through corruption.

This light side does not offer these through Force harmony, multiple Force users have to pool their energy momentarily, a Sith just takes it from others permanently.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
If the Dark Side I s stronger than the Lightside then why are the respective embodiment of each (The Son and Daughter) equels?

Yes. And why do most great lords of the sith have a rival on the light side?


Sure, sometimes it happens that the dark one is stronger... but on the flip side, sometimes it's the light. Revan, Exile, Luke, and so on (heck, in Legacy, with Krayt dead Cade's the strongest force user in the galaxy). It took a thousand years to get a Sith who could beat Yoda, for 80-90% of the time the Rule of Two Sith were in hiding, if the master had come out and challenged the Jedi Grand Master, the Jedi'd have won.

Noomi Sunrider, Exar Kun, Darth Bane, all displayed superior capabilities to Yoda. Well, more advanced abilities and techniques and more impressive showings over all. Those names are the very tip of the iceberg, though.

When Yoda visited Bane's tomb, to me that showed the difference in power to whatever Bane used to be.

Even Talzin and especially Gethzerion had abilities neither Yoda nor the Emperor could ever replicate. Save DE Emperor but I don't count DE as canon.

Is this your way of trying to rationalize your own emotional extremes? By justifying it in fiction you vicariously find its merits in real life? Cuz I could see you doing that.

Originally posted by Oneness
Noomi Sunrider, Exar Kun, Darth Bane, all displayed superior capabilities to Yoda. Well, more advanced abilities and techniques and more impressive showings over all. Those names are the very tip of the iceberg, though.

When Yoda visited Bane's tomb, to me that showed the difference in power to whatever Bane used to be.

Even Talzin and especially Gethzerion had abilities neither Yoda nor the Emperor could ever replicate. Save DE Emperor but I don't count DE as canon.

Types of ability =/= power in the force.

Note how Mace Windu had very little in terms of types of force ability, just TK and saber... but he was still incredibly powerful because his force defense and skill with a saber allows him to murder almost anyone he faces with his laser sword because he doesn't need funkier abilities to be stronger.

Originally posted by Q99
Types of ability =/= power in the force.

Note how Mace Windu had very little in terms of types of force ability, just TK and saber... but he was still incredibly powerful because his force defense and skill with a saber allows him to murder almost anyone he faces with his laser sword because he doesn't need funkier abilities to be stronger. Power in the Force =/= Ability to win a fight.

Mace Windu was a great warrior, greater than Yoda but he was unable to repel Force lightning bare-handed.

The greater sorceror can not only repel lightning bare-handed, but can strip another of their ability to feel the Force. Nomi Sunrider had developed a greater ability and command of the Force. Even Satele Shan could grab a lightsaber blade bare-handed and deflect Force lightning bare-handed as well.

Satele Shan is a greatly underestimated character.

The Sith and Jedi of old had a greater command of the Force by far.

Look deep into it and you'll notice those with greater arcane knowledge in the mythos have more destructive abilities and can do more with the Force. Even in TK.

Look at Naga Sadow using Force amplification crystals he constructed with alchemy to destroy suns. Palpatine's space-storms, Darth Zannah's tendrils, NJO abilities. These are techniques untapped by any Jedi or Sith in the PT era.

Vader was also a great warrior, he wasn't much for tactics in his rage battle with Obi-wan but normally in the Clone Wars he had excellent utilization of Force and physical abilities culminated by great tactics. A trait his more experienced self bestowed upon Galen Marek, his most powerful apprentice.

Yet he never fully embraced the dark side and never harnessed the power he might have had.

It often does overlap.



Because he doesn't have that specific skill. The Horn/Halcyons can, and they're weaker.

Windu is still fantastically strong in the force.


Wider range of skills =/= more power. If Windu had been in Nomi's time, he'd have been trained in more esoteric abilities. If Nomi had been in Windu's, she'd be much more focused in her abilities just as he is.

The underlying argument here is that either way the Dark Side allows one to progress more quickly.

In winning battles, concentration and energy-output of Force powers is far greater with hatred as an emotional state than otherwise. You're more powerful and destructive.

In mastering esoteric abilities, the dark side is still superior in that it allows one to tap into hidden regions of their psyche, and obsess past the point of insanity. Darth Bane: DOE, Darth Plagueis, and DE are all examples of Sith being pushed passed the bring of insanity to develop a myriad of exotic and unnatural esoteric abilities.

You're pushing it further. Your body and your sanity pay the ultimate price. The other disadvantage is that you're constantly at war with the Living Force: You're inheriting all of the negatives of fortune and chance and your plans will go awry because of this.

And the one who can succeed for a time to go against the current has, by far, a greater knack for survival and problem solving because they're constantly being pushed to strive, survive, and they're constantly running into obstacles. Their primal nature is free and unleashed, they're completely immoral and unafraid of shame.

Talk about courage, completely fearless and unashamed of how openly cruel they are. They're willing to be driven mad for eternity in the chaos realm for a time to shine above all other beings in the galaxy.

They're badasses, they will do anything because they can.

Mace can block lightning with the Force, (to an extent) as displayed in the RotS comic. He catches most of Sidious's bolts with his blade, but a few snake around and he repels them with his off hand.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace can block lightning with the Force, (to an extent) as displayed in the RotS comic. He catches most of Sidious's bolts with his blade, but a few snake around and he repels them with his off hand. Comics depicting film, and novelizations are held as non-canon when contradicted by the film.

It doesn't really contradict the film. There were lightning bolts spraying everywhere, there's no way to tell he wasn't bouncing some away.

The comic depicted it not in a Yoda-esque fashion, but more like bolts were turning away from Mace when they got close to him, in an invisible barrier-ish fashion.

Another disadvantage of the dark side, demonstrated by Revan, Vader, Vitiate, and Sidious; is that it's difficult to think tactically when you're insane.

Wall of light & Sever force?

No?

Originally posted by Oneness
Another disadvantage of the dark side, demonstrated by Revan, Vader, Vitiate, and Sidious; is that it's difficult to think tactically when you're insane.
Dafuq are you talking about?

Revan, Vader, and Sidious have never had a problem with tactical thinking. Vitiate's tactical errors in combat could be more attributed to overconfidence or being caught off guard. These guys weren't insane.

If anything, it's those who are Chaos aligned, not Dark aligned, who have a problem with insanity, ie. Abeloth, Joruus C'baoth, anyone infected with Force Psychosis.

And yet, in many of the really great battles Jedi have won. Sidious only beat Windu due to reinforcements, his ability to deflect lightning was giving Mace the edge.

In practical terms, for all this supposed 'great power' the Jedi win at least as many battles, so is the power truly greater?

Originally posted by Oneness
Another disadvantage of the dark side, demonstrated by Revan, Vader, Vitiate, and Sidious; is that it's difficult to think tactically when you're insane.


Except they weren't insane. Vitiate was afraid of his own demise, yes, but he wasn't nuts. Palpatine led the Empire for over 20 years and still had all his lights on, up to his death in ROTJ. Even his clone was "all there", until the end of DE, and even that can be rationalized (he DID die, after all. That has to play havoc with one's psyche). Revan was hailed for his "tactical brilliance", even as a DLOTS. As far as Vader goes, if you're talking about the Mustafar duel, he wasn't insane, just very angry and overconfident.

Evil doers are never sane as they feel driven to commit acts of cruelty out of a will to do good. George Lucas' opinion and philosophy in which he bestowed upon Sith like Vader . They're misguided, confused, insane.

They train themselves to go against their natural programming, which is how they're able to push the Force further, approaching things from unnaturally high perspectives and extremes of the emotional spectrum. When they're in a position of comfort they'll still be more desperate, and when pushed to survive they'll become lose it which is why they must stay one step ahead. They're unleashed by the limits of morality (insanity). Vitiate most of all. DE Sidious, Nihilus, and Vitiate were psychologically able to go to more extremes than anyone in the mythos, their mastery of esoteric abilities mirror the depth of their perception, which is allowed only because they work harder and will do anything in their power to get ahead. It is precisely their insanity that allows them to work unnaturally hard, like machines, conducting operations like clockwork.

It's why Ash admired the Xenomorph in Alien; "Its perfection is matched by its hostility. A survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality."

Originally posted by Oneness
Another disadvantage of the dark side, demonstrated by Revan, Vader, Vitiate, and Sidious; is that it's difficult to think tactically when you're insane.

Actually Darth Revan might be the most sane Sith in the mythos. But yeah your point still stands.

Since when is George Lucas an authority on insanity?

Anyway, even accepting his definition of insane, he wrote a character (Sidious) who was both insane and a tactical genius.

Originally posted by Q99
f Nomi had been in Windu's, she'd be much more focused in her abilities just as he is.

I actually disagree on this point. Even before being trained as a Jedi, she had a natural aptitude for Battle Meditation.

Originally posted by Ace Hambone
Since when is George Lucas an authority on insanity?

Anyway, even accepting his definition of insane, he wrote a character (Sidious) who was both insane and a tactical genius.


In a way that ultimately lead to his destruction.

Basically sith schemes are grand but self-destructive. They flare up and burn out.

By staying in hiding in isolation they can last for awhile, but they aren't built to last.

Originally posted by Selenial
Wall of light & Sever force?

No?

This.

Also, the Light Side is ironically the only path to immortality, which is the ultimate personal goal of a Sith, to dominate forever.

Therein lies the issue, trying to dominate everything never works out, not ever.

Will of the Force > Dark Side Users > Light Side Users.

The difference being, the Light Side users have the Will of the Force as their ally. Dark Side users never will because the biggest baddest Dark Lords have absorbing life, sometimes all of it, as a ticking box.

Darth Sidious, Lord Vitiate, Exar Kun, Darth Nihilus, Darth Nox, etc, etc...

They all tried in some form to absorb the living force, with varying levels of success. The will of the force decided to give them the finger and all of them perished.

There are of course many many other examples with varying levels of success down different paths, where a Sith or Dark Sider attempted to achieve immortality... domination over life and death, biggest mistake you can make if you are a Force User in Star Wars IMO.

The smartest Sith use a cold icy hatred to achieve their ends, makes them much harder to put down.

Originally posted by Q99
In a way that ultimately lead to his destruction.

Basically sith schemes are grand but self-destructive. They flare up and burn out.

By staying in hiding in isolation they can last for awhile, but they aren't built to last. Therein lies why a Jedi is stronger than a Sith, the Sith's impatience with their allies and overconfidence in their own abilities.

Patience requires calmness. A Sith will never be patient with others and unless they can absolutely control everyone, their impatience will make them too insane to function optimally. This is what happened to Sidious. Sidious could not foresee Vader stepping out of line. Too overconfident.

The Sith are constantly ashamed of weakness, the Jedi embrace it use it to stir the goodness in non-Sith or Sith with good in them (like Vader) to their cause.

The Sith try and control everyone, stirring nothing in them, but instead forcing them to submit. In this submissive state, their allies are weak and easily dispatched.

Sidious never trained an apprentice that could (Maul) or would (Vader) overthrow him. Eliminated his master. He was a scab, pure and simple.

That kind of behavior inspires no one but the impatient (like Anakin); and the impatient will wise up sooner or later.

Anakin wanted a wise dictatorship, but somewhere along the line he lost the ability to distinguish between a wise dictatorship, and a cruel one.

Without the ability to stir, not use, others to progress your cause; your cause is useless.

Originally posted by Based
Actually Darth Revan might be the most sane Sith in the mythos. But yeah your point still stands. Revan went insane and that's why he was defeated by a Sith Strike Team in SWTOR.

Originally posted by Oneness
Revan went insane and that's why he was defeated by a Sith Strike Team in SWTOR.
If Revan actually went insane, it wasn't a result of him being a darksider (which he wasn't), it was a result of, I don't know, being tortured for three hundred years! Not really a valid point here.

Plus that was a pretty damn good strike team.

The main source of power for a Jedi or a Sith is will.

Will is an emotional state, and the aspect with greater emotional extremes is the irrational one. In a sense the dark side is stronger, for the pure of heart (evil).

As for Anakin, it was more tempting, and it would was easier to lestat go of his moral responsibilities. Quicker, easier, more seductive. But he couldn't have crystalline hatred, the inner conflict took from him his purity of will and his ability to fully utilize the dark side.

This is what Yoda spoke of, a Jedi has the patience to fully master himself - a Sith has transcended patience and is as quick to develop as he is insane and destructive.