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"There's still good in him. I know there's still good..."

You noticed Anakin had a look of confusion on his face before fighting his master. He wasn't in it like with Dooku; his eyes went from yellow to normal on Mustafar as his "non-conflicted" hatred came and went. This is evidenced by him having normal eyes when shedding tears of regret or remorse.

It was this "inner conflict". This is why he couldn't overpower his master in the Force push struggle. He wasn't entirely without feelings other than hate, he had remorse in there. The dark side could not fully permeate his heart during that battle, nor could it ever as Vader, with Padme's death on his conscience as a constant source of remorse.

As Vader he could kill his emotions to do what was necessary, but unlike Sidious, his will to utilize the Dark Side was not pure. The dark side would have taken his power to the max had his will been pure.

Deja vu.

Meh, I'd say the number one reason is Kenobi knew his style inside and out.

Originally posted by Q99
Meh, I'd say the number one reason is Kenobi knew his style inside and out.
It's a combination of both reasons.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's a combination of both reasons.

Yep.

True, however Obi-Wan had hesitation as well. Remember the last part of the fight ;

Anakin : You underestimate my power !
Obi-Wan : Don't try it !

Pretty sure Anakin lost because runny mascara kept getting in his eyes.

Originally posted by Q99
Meh, I'd say the number one reason is Kenobi knew his style inside and out. No, Vader was equal in terms of saber skill. It was just that Kenobi's Soresu was the kryptonite to Vader's Djem So similarly to how Anakin's Djem So was kryptonite to Dooku's Makashi; and Luke's Djem So was kryptonite to Vader's improvised style.

Addendum; as of ROTS, Anakin was stated to be of a higher combat rank than Kenobi in the "making of" documentary.

Originally posted by Marco1907
True, however Obi-Wan had hesitation as well. Remember the last part of the fight ;

Anakin : You underestimate my power !
Obi-Wan : Don't try it ! Yes; but Kenobi was a light side user, holding back wouldn't make a difference in power for him like Vader. A lack of concentration and purity of will would, but Kenobi showed no sign of a declined mental state.

Kenobi was hesitant to kill, but Obi-wan was playing a game of hit and run; conserving his energy, utilizing guerrilla tactics via the terrain, etc. while Vader was too disoriented to be capable of utilizing his full tactical acumen.

As of the films, Vader's unlocked strength in the Force was greater than Dooku's during the rare occasions that his hatred was uninhibited by his inner conflict.

Not really, when you get among masters and the higher ups, styles matter a lot less. Here, power and skill come into play, and Kenobi thought more clearly and was much less arrogant.

As to Kenobi not holding back, have you read the novel? Kenobi was trying to talk Vader down until the very end, at which point he leaves him to burn to death.
Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of
one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself
understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for
him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he
denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best
friend walked.
Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment.
He let it go. -Revenge of the Sith novelization.

This isn't look like a hesitation though ;

http://i61.tinypic.com/b8mqfr.jpg

Also Yoda's statement ; Yoda was certain about Obi-Wan's victory



http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/StarWars-EpisodeIII-RevengeoftheSith04-11_zpsbbeb8308.jpg

Yoda was dead wrong about both of those assertions.

Going to have say Yoda was entirely inaccurate in his predictions there

Originally posted by Oneness
No, Vader was equal in terms of saber skill.


Yep.. "Blade for blade they were identical.. Like two halves of the same warrior.."


Originally posted by Oneness
It was just that Kenobi's Soresu was the kryptonite to Vader's Djem So


Nah.

If that was true Kenobi would have stomped Vader. But they fought equally for several minutes. Because they were equally skilled, and even though Vader was "stronger", Kenobi's Soresu compensates for that by giving ground.


Originally posted by Oneness
similarly to how Anakin's Djem So was kryptonite to Dooku's Makashi;


No bro.

Dooku lost to Anakin because Dooku himself couldn't handle the full power Skywalker was unleashing, especially after having fought 2 opponents and already revitalizing his reserves several times. Had nothing to do with Djem So vs Makashi though.

Plo Koon's a Djem So practitioner, but he's not beating Dooku.

Originally posted by Oneness
and Luke's Djem So was kryptonite to Vader's improvised style.

No, no, no.

Luke wasn't yet trained well enough to take on the likes of Vader. No matter what style he was using.

Originally posted by Marco1907
This isn't look like a hesitation though ;

http://i61.tinypic.com/b8mqfr.jpg

You're telling me Kenobi wants to defend himself? What is this?

Dude, there's a huge difference between not wanting to die and trying to kill someone, despite what the media portrays these days.

What does this have to do with Kenobi not wanting to kill Anakin Skywalker, whom is who Kenobi thought he would be facing?

That, or it was was because Little Orphan Ani had more then a few screws loose during the entire fight.

Originally posted by NTJack0
Little Orphan Ani
watch?v=_69wvG7Bqa8

No saber style counters another, Dooku lost because Anakin completely outclassed him in raw power and speed.

The novel itself states that Anakin was moving faster and faster as well as hitting harder and harder, and that Dooku's energy was diminishing well Anakin's was growing.

Dooku lost because he fought the chosen one, not because makashi is weak to Djem

Originally posted by Board Walker
No saber style counters another, Dooku lost because Anakin completely outclassed him in raw power and speed.

The novel itself states that Anakin was moving faster and faster as well as hitting harder and harder, and that Dooku's energy was diminishing well Anakin's was growing.

Dooku lost because he fought the chosen one, not because makashi is weak to Djem

Ah no, Dooku is weak against physical attacks, he has no decent physical feats (except kicking someone via fencing) or any physical resistance feat. Not to mention Savage make him fly with just one stroke.

And this is very natural, he was 80 years old. Dooku was not perfect.

Originally posted by Board Walker


Dooku lost because he fought the chosen one, not because makashi is weak to Djem








Originally posted by Marco1907
Ah no, Dooku is weak against physical attacks,


Nah. That's a big misconception.


Originally posted by Marco1907
he has no decent physical feats (except kicking someone via fencing)


Well we are talking here about Physical attacks during a Saber fight.

And Dooku's kick against Anakin is amongst the most powerful kicks we've seen in the Saga (especially considering the opponent he did that too). I mean he sent him flying across the damn room, and left him floored and helpless for a good 10 seconds.

So how's that for a "decent" physical feat?



Originally posted by Marco1907
or any physical resistance feat.

Well that's hard to judge because he doesn't get hit often. But remember in "Crisis on Naboo" when Anakin kicked him and he tripped over the steps behind him, and then choked him.. Well once Dooku got Anakin off him, he got back up immediately, and he was just fine. He wasn't panting for air, or rubbing his body where he got kicked. So he took Skywalker's the physical attacks pretty well if you ask me.


Originally posted by Marco1907
Not to mention Savage make him fly with just one stroke.


You seem to be really obsessed over that 1 blow of Opress that sent Dooku flying. Opress is a physical beast who you have to be focused on and completely ready for. He disarmed Kenobi in a few Saber strokes in "Revenge". And he also disarmed Ventress in the same episode.

At least Dooku was fighting 2 opponents, and was only holding onto his Saber with one hand and only dropped his weapon when he hit the wall behind him in a cramped space.


Originally posted by Marco1907
And this is very natural, he was 80 years old. Dooku was not perfect.


Which is why he depends on "Force Enhanced" strength like Yoda and Sidious do. So if he's using up too much in his Force reserves by fighting mutiple opponents, then it may be easier for a strong opponent to get the better of him.

@darth power

Dooku kicked Anakin via fencing, he never kicks people without bending the blade, the feats I am talking about is physical strength & martial arts, not kicking via finding an opening

Remember the part Anakin kicked Dooku in RotS, he kicked casually with his rage, thats what I am talking about.

Sidious has very decent physical feats. You can see it here ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

Sidious contend with Maul & Savage in terms of physical strength. Deflected Savage's attacks with ease, tanked Maul's kick and Savage's headbutt, then he kicked Savage etc.

As for Yoda, he kicked Sidious (casually) in comic book, so thats a very solid feat as well.

Edit, here is the Yoda's physical strength feat :

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/StarWars-CloneWarsAdventuresVolume3-054_zps65ebea22.jpg

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/StarWars-CloneWarsAdventuresVolume3-056_zps18fa8486.jpg

Transporting a heavy weaponry with ease.

Originally posted by Marco1907
@darth power

Dooku kicked Anakin via fencing, he never kicks people without bending the blade, the feats I am talking about is physical strength & martial arts, not kicking via finding an opening


We're talking about Physical attacks during a Lightsaber fight. Of which Dooku's kick on Anakin (while simultaneously disposing of Kenobi no less) was one of the best I've seen in SW against such a strong opponent like Skywalker.

And it's not the first time Dooku's done that. He continually kick floored Ventress (while having to watch out for Opress), he kicked Kenobi a good long distance as well, while fighting Skywalker, almost sending Kenobi off the ledge (Season 6 Clone Wars).

So the question I'm asking you is... Why is it that Dooku's the one whose accused of being weak against Physical attacks? Why not Ventress, or Kenobi or even Skywalker, when they are the ones who have taken the worse physical beatings from Dooku and not the other way around?

It's because there's this silly misconception going around that Dooku goes down to " TOO MUCH KINETIC ENERGY" which comes from a quote from the Revenge of the Sith novel, which people have overblown and taken completely out of context. The correct context being that Dooku shouldn't go "head to head" against a physical beast like Opress or Skywalker, with his One handed style or fencing, ESPECIALLY while fighting off a 2nd Opponent.

But in a one on one scenario, where he utilizes Makashi in the correct way, by deflecting and redirecting and giving ground and using footwork to evade... In that scenario Dooku can handle physical beasts just fine.

And even in situations where he's force to go "head to head" (e.g. in a cramped area, or against multiple opponents), as long as he's prepared for it, he can do it, with his Impressive showings of Force enhanced strength, and ability to revitalize those Force reserves in an instance.

Originally posted by Marco1907


Remember the part Anakin kicked Dooku in RotS, he kicked casually with his rage, thats what I am talking about.

Casually and with Rage are a contradiction. If he did it with Rage then it was hardly done casually.

In any case yes I remember. And did that kick defeat Dooku, floor him leaving him helpless, or anything of the sort? Nope, he just rolled with it landing on his feet. This despite the fact that it came right after he just finished disposing of Kenobi.

So again, I don't get what exactly you are talking about, except it seems you have this preconceived notion drilled in that Dooku is weak against Kinetic energy/Physical attacks, for which there is little to no evidence.

Originally posted by Marco1907 Sidious has very decent physical feats. You can see it here ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

Sidious contend with Maul & Savage in terms of physical strength. Deflected Savage's attacks with ease, tanked Maul's kick and Savage's headbutt, then he kicked Savage etc.

Ok. Not that I ever actually said Dooku is as strong as Sidious, or anything of the sort. But let's just examine those examples you have given anyway.

He deflected Savage's attacks with ease- As did Dooku in their sparring match. Dooku also in ROTS Deflects and even Blocks "Head on" the combined blows of Kenobi and Skywalker. And he does it One Handed no less.

Tanked Maul's kick and Savage's headbutt- Tanking them would be just standing there and not moving. Sidious rolled with those blows, just as Dooku rolls with blows when he gets hit.

But again I must stress I have no interest in comparing Dooku's strength with his Master's as that's a no brainer.

I'm addressing this issue that somehow Dooku is weak against Kinetic energy or Physical attacks during Saber Combat because of his age and/or fighting style. So I have to ask you, based on the evidence of who hits who, and how well they take it, is it not Ventress, Kenobi and Skywalker who are the ones who seem weak to Physical attacks, when fighting against Dooku?!



Originally posted by Marco1907 As for Yoda, he kicked Sidious (casually) in comic book, so thats a very solid feat as well.

Edit, here is the Yoda's physical strength feat :

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/StarWars-CloneWarsAdventuresVolume3-054_zps65ebea22.jpg

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/StarWars-CloneWarsAdventuresVolume3-056_zps18fa8486.jpg

Transporting a heavy weaponry with ease.


Again, I don't see the relevance of comparing the strength of Dooku to that of his former master. But let's bear in mind he has fought Yoda, and didn't exactly get disarmed by 1 stroke of Yoda's blade. That in itself is super impressive given the physical feats of Yoda you've posted which are well beyond Savage Opress's and Darth Maul's physical feats.

I know that we shouldn't compare Dooku with Sidious & Yoda, however you suggested that comparision with this ;

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Which is why he depends on "Force Enhanced" strength like Yoda and Sidious do.
So if he's using up too much in his Force reserves by fighting mutiple opponents, then it may be easier for a strong opponent to get the better of him.

^ I wasn't making a power comparison there. I was explaining why Dooku's age doesn't make him weak or prone to Kinetic energy or Physical attacks simply due to his age. And I related that to other examples.

Anyway it seems to me its Dooku who beats on the likes of Kenobi and Ventress via Physical attacks. So if anything we should come to the conclusion that it's those 2 who are weak against Physical attacks.. Not Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ I wasn't making a power comparison there. I was explaining why Dooku's age doesn't make him weak or prone to Kinetic energy or Physical attacks simply due to his age. And I related that to other examples.

Anyway it seems to me its Dooku who beats on the likes of Kenobi and Ventress via Physical attacks. So if anything we should come to the conclusion that it's those 2 who are weak against Physical attacks.. Not Dooku.

As I said before, those are fencing kicks, not via martial arts or physical strength.

Ventress has decent force combat feats which is exceeds Dooku ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBPF4mRPUXA

And for Obi-Wan he has good resistance feats, against torture, Grievous, and Anakin's djem-so

So both have better physical feats than Dooku.

I don't know why are insisting to deny Dooku's only weakness, he has only ''one'' weakness, and its very natural. Except physical, he is very good at dueling skill & force attacks.

These qualities are enough to defeat very skilled warriors such as Ventress & Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Marco1907
As I said before, those are fencing kicks, not via martial arts or physical strength.

Ventress has decent force combat feats which is exceeds Dooku ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBPF4mRPUXA

And for Obi-Wan he has good resistance feats, against torture, Grievous, and Anakin's djem-so

So both have better physical feats than Dooku.

I don't know why are insisting to deny Dooku's only weakness, he has only ''one'' weakness, and its very natural. Except physical, he is very good at dueling skill & force attacks.

These qualities are enough to defeat very skilled warriors such as Ventress & Obi-Wan.

They are not fencing feats. They are physical feats done while fencing. And since all fights between Jedi/Sith will take place in Saber fighting, those are the most important applications of "strength" and "martial combat" in Star Wars versus matches.

Ventress gets her ass handed to her by Dooku Physically and via TK. So showing her beat on a few Clone Troopers to "prove" she's stronger is frankly laughable.

Obi-Wan didn't show good resistance against Dooku's physical attacks, so clearly Dooku's stronger than Anakin going by the logic you're using.

Again claiming Ventress and Kenobi have greater physical feats than Dooku, when Dooku's the one who keeps "Physically" beating on them is silly.

I'm denying Dooku's "1 weakness" because there's little to no evidence for it. You (and others... So you're not the only one) have taken one line on the Revenge of the Sith novel and completely blown it out of proportion and completely taken it out of context.
And the "1 weakness" you're giving him is a pretty huge one, because you're essentially saying Dooku won't be beating anyone whose skilled and really "strong." Even taking it to the level where you're claiming a less powerful Sith Lord like Maul defeat him.

But that line of thinking is simply wrong. Dooku's a lot stronger than you give him credit for. And can handle "uber strong people" just fine.

@darth power

Dooku beats Savage via force attacks who is insanely strong.

Also Dooku should beat RotS Anakin via force attacks too, however Maul has grown in force too, he already stomped Kenobi 3 times, force pulled a space ship, collapse caves, used force waves etc. Since there is no big difference in TK, thats why Maul can beat Dooku.

So for defeating Dooku, you need good TK feats and good strength feats, strength is not the only answer.

Originally posted by Marco1907
@darth power

Dooku beats Savage via force attacks who is insanely strong.

Also Dooku should beat RotS Anakin via force attacks too, however Maul has grown in force too, he already stomped Kenobi 3 times, force pulled a space ship, collapse caves, used force waves etc. Since there is no big difference in TK, thats why Maul can beat Dooku.

So for defeating Dooku, you need good TK feats and good strength feats, strength is not the only answer.

I understand that argument for saying Suit Vader has the right tools to defeat Dooku.

But I don't really think Maul is quite physically strong enough or powerful enough with TK.

He's still not beaten Kenobi in a Saber fight, in fact just barely handled the several kicks Kenobi landed on him in "Revival." And even though I agree Maul is stronger than Kenobi in Force TK, I don't think he "stomps" Kenobi with TK. Bare in mind when he Overpowered Kenobi in Revival, Kenobi was likely tiring from battling both Maul and Opress. It was more impressive in "Sith Hunters" when he Force Choked him. But he clearly can't do that anytime her likes. Because if he could then he would have in their one on one in Revival.