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Right I'm making this thread to address this issue as it seems to keep coming up in the versus forums.

This is a widely spread an inaccurate idea which has all been caused by this line in the Revenge of the Sith NOVEL:

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker."

The amount this one line has been exaggerated and overblown is really astonishing to me.

So let's break it down here, and if anyone makes an issue of it in future here or elsewhere just refer them back to this thread.

Firstly the whole of this part of the novel contradicts the actual fight as seen in the film. In the actual fight Dooku surprisingly does block both Anakin and Kenobi's blow with just one hand. So tell me doesn this look like Dooku and Makashi are weak to Kinetic Energy:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Count+Dooku+vs+Obi-Wan+and+Anakin&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=5yX_U_LxEfDA7AbMjoDYBw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=657#facrc=_&imgdii=_& amp;imgrc=wG2rGgAGsEXaNM%253A%3BFg6PuvTjBJ9oyM%3Bh
ttp%253A%252F%252Fmembers.shaw.ca%252Fdavid.p.z.888%252Fstar_wars%252Fpics%252Fcount_dooku_final.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fmembers.shaw.ca%252Fdavid.p.z.888%252Fstar_wars%252Fcount_dooku.html%3B300%3B173


Notice that Anakin is actually using both hands there..


Anyway back to the infamous line which has cause such large confusion on the matter. Let's break down both lines. First line:

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head."

I've underlined the key part of this sentence: Head-to-Head..

Makashi by it's nature is a form that tends not to go Head-to-Head and full on Block attacks.

Instead it relies on deflecting and redirecting blows. It likes to use footwork and speed to evade attacks, and give ground much like Soresu does. Much like Dooku does in this fight against Anakin Skywalker from 0:45 onwards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvomH9iKQo8

His footwork and speed to evade attacks can be seen here continuously evading the attacks of Savage Opress and Asajj Ventress specifically at 1:28-1:33 and 1:47-1:58

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUclUEMosm0

As for the second line:

Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.

Self explanatory. But basically the one lines that says this really only even brings it up as an issue when fighting off 2 Opponents. So it's almost a moot point anyway when discussing One on Ones.

And just to further show his effectiveness against powerful opponents here Dooku goes toe to toe with The Most Powerful Jedi who definitely does generate a lot of kinetic energy Lol: @ 4:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvnwLLXHabg




Right now another point people keep bringing up is "Well then why did Dooku lose to Anakin when Anakin couldn't beat Obi-Wan.. He therefore MUST BE WEAK to Anakin's Djem So!!!"

Well Ok, instead of getting into the whole "Zone Anakin," and the whole "Anakin was mentally unstable against Kenobi," let's just look at the facts.

Facts are these:

1. Dooku fought Obi-Wan and Anakin together. Anakin was getting stronger through the fight whilst Dooku was getting tired fighting both of them (according to the ROTS script), and had to replenish his Force Reserves several times (according to the ROTS novel). If Kenobi manages to fight off Dooku(or a different but clearly strong formidable opponent) and Skywalker first, and right after defeats the first opponent then goes on to defeat Anakin in a one on one... then talk. But somehow I don't see that happening. In fact we do see Kenobi fight off 2 powerful Opponents here, Maul and Opress- From 3:15:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74

Notice how Kenobi does fight them both off, and does defeat one of the, and then what happens when he's left one on one with Maul- at 4:45?

He lasts 3 seconds and gets completely Force Smacked? Why? Because clearly Kenobi is tiring from fighting off both opponents.

2. Even though Makashi is very skilled at defending against powerful blows, Soresu is The Best at defence. It is a form completely devoted to defending and nothing else. So it shouldn't be too surprising if Kenobi can fend off Anakin's power blows much longer than Dooku does after Dooku just fought off 2 opponents.

3. Star Wars isn't the most consistent medium when it comes to fights.


The other point people bring up a lot is this one time Savage Opress floored Dooku with a blow. Which he does here at 1:32-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUclUEMosm0

Savage is a Physical Beast. He was already physically very strong but he was then enhanced by Mother Talzin's magic to be a huge physical beast.

Opress has taken out many oppoents with his strength especially when they first fight:

Here he has both Anakin and Obi-Wan on the defensive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOkn3UBL51g

Here he completely staggers and disarms Kenobi in 10 seconds from 0:47 - 0:57:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNmbtaIZHqo

In this same video at around 4:12 he starts to batter and disarms Ventress pretty fast again using his physical strength. But note how later in the same video Ventress fights off Opress after regaining her weapon and holds her own. And we all know Kenobi has later fought off Opress and Maul together, cutting off Opress's arm.

On top of all even though Dooku did get sent flying back by Opress in that one blow, he was only actually disarmed when he hit the wall behind him. Fighting in a cramped space did not help his style especially when attempting to dance around 2 opponents.

Some people also bring up Anakin flooring Dooku with a kick here @ 1:42:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvomH9iKQo8

This one just makes me laugh. Apart from the fact that it wasn't exactly convenient for Dooku that he was on some steps behind him at the time, my question is SO WHAT?

Is Dooku the first and only guy in Star Wars to get kicked? Are all people who get kicked weak to Physical Attacks and Kinetic Energy?

How many times does Dooku effortlessly kick and floor Ventress in this fight from 1:15 onwards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUclUEMosm0

So is Ventress weak to Physical Attacks and Kinetic Energy?

Here Ventress sends Kenobi flying with a kick completely flooring and disarming and possibly KO'ing Kenobi @ 0:29

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1wbV63hg7o


So is Kenobi weak to Physical attacks and Kinetic energy?

Oh and guess who goes down to a kick here at 2:00:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk4AiCnMqpg

Sooooo, is Palpatine now weak to Physical attacks and Kinetic energy?


The stupid part is that it's usually Dooku is kicking the crap out of his opponents with physical attacks.

I've already shown how he treated Ventress. Here's him kicking Anakin Skywalker @ 1:31:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvTa1vxmY3M

Now compare that kick when Dooku was outnumbered to the one Anakin landed on Dooku in "Crisis on Naboo" and then tell me who is really weak to Physical Attacks and Kinetic Energy?

Going to end this now with Count Dooku's final TCW fight against Anakin and Obi-Wan. Note how Anakin's "Djem So Power" seems laughable and how Count Dooku is the one who makes Obi-Wan Kenobi seem like a literal physical weakling, by sending flying falling over the ledge with a kick @ 1:00 and then grabbing him by the stomach and throwing Kenobi to the floor @ 1:19 which takes Kenobi a few seconds to get up and we see him in pain holding on to his stomach:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pI8IkWa3LQ


When has Dooku ever been treated like that physically? It's the Count who dishes it out people, not the other way around.

Just as an end note, I'm not saying Dooku won't struggle at all against a Physical Beast who also has a lot of skill like say OT Machine Vader. That would be an advantage Vader would have over the much older Count. But it's certainly nothing he can't handle and certainly not the all and end all. Many more factors will come into play just in the "Saber" portion of the fight.

So Long Live Count Dooku, one of the most Powerful Sith Lords Ever. Even though he's dead.

Well long live Christopher Lee then!


Thanks to Arhael for his insightful input on the topic that's been used here and to all the Count Dooku fans on KMC. You know who you are!

This was a really good thread, and demonstrates with official material that Makashi is in no way weak to kinetic heavy saber forms.

Kinetic energy is generated by an individual's speed, and strength which is then dependent upon their force power. Dooku did just fine against Yoda who likely has some of the greatest strength, and speed due to his monstrous force powers.

It is akin to saying "Djem So is completely countered by speed, and is too slow to keep up with highly mobile saber forms". For anyone wondering Dooku stated in the ROTS novel that one of Djem So's weaknesses was its lack of speed, and maneuverability in combat.

Finally the generation of Kinetic energy is entirely dependent upon an individuals speed, and strength which is independent of their saber form. Dooku has demonstrated time after time that he is physically stronger, and physically faster than nearly every one else (barring sidious/Yoda). The reason for this is because Dooku is extremely powerful in the force, and uses his force reserves to supplement his strength as well as speed. If Anakin were a Makashi practitioner his hits would likely surpasses that of most other fighters, which is due to his monstrous force reserves.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Count+Dooku+vs+Obi-Wan+and+Anakin&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=5yX_U_LxEfDA7AbMjoDYBw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=657#facrc=_&imgdii=_& amp;imgrc=wG2rGgAGsEXaNM%253A%3BFg6PuvTjBJ9oyM%3Bh
ttp%253A%252F%252Fmembers.shaw.ca%252Fdavid.p.z.888%252Fstar_wars%252Fpics%252Fcount_dooku_final.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fmembers.shaw.ca%252Fdavid.p.z.888%252Fstar_wars%252Fcount_dooku.html%3B300%3B173

Notice that Anakin is actually using both hands there..



This isn't a condemnation of your entire point, but I'd just like to point that out, since "physics" and physics terms are being thrown around in here, the photo you're referring to really doesn't support your assertion.

http://members.shaw.ca/david.p.z.888/star_wars/pics/count_dooku_final.jpg

Look at the point of contact between Dooku's blade and theirs. Notice how high up the PoC is on their blades, compared to how low it is on Dooku's blade, right near the handle. The higher up the point of contact is on a blade, the less leverage can be put behind the strike. With Obi-Wan and Anakin's positions being what they are, the amount of force they're applying on their blades in that scene was pretty much nothing at all, especially with both of their arms raised so high and their centers of Gravity so off- an emaciated African child could have probably lifted both of their lightsabers up the way Dooku's doing.

Anyway, as far as Makashi and its effectiveness against strong kinetic attacks, it really just comes to the laws of physics and momentum. It's just a fact that any fencing technique that utilizes only a single handed grip on a sword is going to always put less than optimal strength behind your attacks.

So when Dooku's twirling around like a ballerina, flicking his lightsaber around like it's a cute little wand- yeah, he's just asking for someone to swing their sword like a baseball bat and disarm him. On the other hand, there's scenes of him gripping his blade with both hands, and in those instances he's not at a disadvantage.

As well, and this just speculation on my part, I think that Makashi is supposed to be a style that's built around nullifying physical force rather than attempting to confront it or counter it- but the problem is that it's rarely portrayed as such. I feel that a competent Makashi user would very rarely ever even "block" a lightsaber strike from an opponent. Rather, they would focus primarily on merely dodging the blows or parrying them in such a way as to rob them of their momentum, ala aikido.

Because of the flynning nature of lightsaber duels, we don't often get to see that- but it's how I imagine makashi to function, and it would explain why it's considered the epitome of lightsaber on lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
This isn't a condemnation of your entire point, but I'd just like to point that out, since "physics" and physics terms are being thrown around in here, the photo you're referring to really doesn't support your assertion.

http://members.shaw.ca/david.p.z.888/star_wars/pics/count_dooku_final.jpg

Look at the point of contact between Dooku's blade and theirs. Notice how high up the PoC is on their blades, compared to how low it is on Dooku's blade, right near the handle. The higher up the point of contact is on a blade, the less leverage can be put behind the strike. With Obi-Wan and Anakin's positions being what they are, the amount of force they're applying on their blades in that scene was pretty much nothing at all, especially with both of their arms raised so high and their centers of Gravity so off- an emaciated African child could have probably lifted both of their lightsabers up the way Dooku's doing.

Anyway, as far as Makashi and its effectiveness against strong kinetic attacks, it really just comes to the laws of physics and momentum. It's just a fact that any fencing technique that utilizes only a single handed grip on a sword is going to always put less than optimal strength behind your attacks.

So when Dooku's twirling around like a ballerina, flicking his lightsaber around like it's a cute little wand- yeah, he's just asking for someone to swing their sword like a baseball bat and disarm him. On the other hand, there's scenes of him gripping his blade with both hands, and in those instances he's not at a disadvantage.

As well, and this just speculation on my part, I think that Makashi is supposed to be a style that's built around nullifying physical force rather than attempting to confront it or counter it- but the problem is that it's rarely portrayed as such. I feel that a competent Makashi user would very rarely ever even "block" a lightsaber strike from an opponent. Rather, they would focus primarily on merely dodging the blows or parrying them in such a way as to rob them of their momentum, ala aikido.

Because of the flynning nature of lightsaber duels, we don't often get to see that- but it's how I imagine makashi to function, and it would explain why it's considered the epitome of lightsaber on lightsaber combat.

This was one of the most educating post I have ever read, and I thank you for sharing it with me. It makes sense why Makashi would be the ultimate anti-light saber form, due to reasons you listed.

It doesn't matter if the Makashi user is facing Juyo, Djem Sp, and or vaapad as it would all be the same. The Makashi user would strive to not waste energy on blocking unnecessary strikies, he would simply dodge or redirect them. Doing so achieves two outcomes, the first is that the Makashi user is expending less energy than their opponent, and the second is that their opponent will run out of energy first.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
This isn't a condemnation of your entire point, but I'd just like to point that out, since "physics" and physics terms are being thrown around in here, the photo you're referring to really doesn't support your assertion.

http://members.shaw.ca/david.p.z.888/star_wars/pics/count_dooku_final.jpg

Look at the point of contact between Dooku's blade and theirs. Notice how high up the PoC is on their blades, compared to how low it is on Dooku's blade, right near the handle. The higher up the point of contact is on a blade, the less leverage can be put behind the strike. With Obi-Wan and Anakin's positions being what they are, the amount of force they're applying on their blades in that scene was pretty much nothing at all, especially with both of their arms raised so high and their centers of Gravity so off- an emaciated African child could have probably lifted both of their lightsabers up the way Dooku's doing.


I was telling pretty much the same thing to people that claimed Yoda is stronger than Dooku and Sidious.

Originally posted by Tzeentch

Anyway, as far as Makashi and its effectiveness against strong kinetic attacks, it really just comes to the laws of physics and momentum. It's just a fact that any fencing technique that utilizes only a single handed grip on a sword is going to always put less than optimal strength behind your attacks.


Yes that's exactly right. It's a one handed fencing style so will not generate the same kinetic energy, but that's the point, it's not supposed to.



Originally posted by Tzeentch
As well, and this just speculation on my part, I think that Makashi is supposed to be a style that's built around nullifying physical force rather than attempting to confront it or counter it- but the problem is that it's rarely portrayed as such. I feel that a competent Makashi user would very rarely ever even "block" a lightsaber strike from an opponent. Rather, they would focus primarily on merely dodging the blows or parrying them in such a way as to rob them of their momentum, ala aikido.

Because of the flynning nature of lightsaber duels, we don't often get to see that- but it's how I imagine makashi to function, and it would explain why it's considered the epitome of lightsaber on lightsaber combat.

Exactly. It's not designed to block in the first place. Hence the line- can't meet Djem So "Head to Head". It's not supposed to meet it head to head.

And thanks for pointing out the physics of blocking both those Sabers at that Pivot Point.

Great analysis. This is definitive proof that Dooku is weak against brute strength and kinetic energy and would therefore get stomped by the likes of Malgus, Vader, and Bane.

Originally posted by red8
Great analysis. This is definitive proof that Dooku is weak against brute strength and kinetic energy and would therefore get stomped by the likes of Malgus, Vader, and Bane.



I hope you're joking.