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If Sauron recruited Smaug and somehow convinced him to fight at Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith (before the army of the dead arrived), do you think he would have tipped these battles in Sauron's favor?

Probably. That's why Gandalf encouraged Thorin and Co to reclaim the Lonely Mountain--he knew that the war would be hopeless if Sauron could have gotten such a powerful tool.

Same reason (in my view) why he stayed and fought the Balrog of Morgoth in Moria. It isn't that the Fellowship couldn't have escaped the Balrog if he hadn't held it off, it was that once it had awoken he knew he had to kill it, lest Sauron recruit it into his army.

However, in the end it wasn't force of arms that defeated Sauron but something he'd never seen coming: that a pair of little Hobbits could bring the ring to Mount Doom and destroy it. If that hadn't happened, Sauron would have won anyway.

Smaug was killed by a single magic arrow to the chest by a man whose backstory was introduced in the same paragraph he killed Smaug in.

So I mean, theoretically, despite Smaug's enormous power, any good archer (The elves have a lot of those from what I hear) with a fruity magic arrow can make Smaug go out like a pussy.

Legolas probably would have Barded him.

Though, in both the cartoon and the live action movie the black arrow is shown to be much longer and sturdier than a normal arrow, which might suggest that it's really just a matter of piercing deep enough rather than anything magical.

Sure, but in the book such context was never given. In the movie it's more like a ballista bolt, which makes a bit more sense.

In the novel?

It's a dinky magic arrow.

I'm not sure if the book goes along with the movie in that there weren't many of these arrows left... The movie mentions this, does the book?

I think he couldn't. Smaug don't look that powerful to me.

You mean besides expelling the most powerful dwarf kingdom on middle earth with relative ease?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean besides expelling the most powerful dwarf kingdom on middle earth with relative ease?
Well that is God your speaking too...

Originally posted by NemeBro
Smaug was killed by a single magic arrow to the chest by a man whose backstory was introduced in the same paragraph he killed Smaug in.

So I mean, theoretically, despite Smaug's enormous power, any good archer (The elves have a lot of those from what I hear) with a fruity magic arrow can make Smaug go out like a pussy.

It seems you misunderstood the point of the book.
Smaug's scales were impervious to nearly all weapons, but his underbelly was soft, so to compensate for it, Smaug slept upon the treasures of Erebor, which allowed bits off gold and jewels to embed themselves in his underbelly, this diamond wastcoat was intended to cover his only weak spot, however Bilbo discovered a bare patch on the left side of Smaug's underbelly. Bard was told about that spot by the thrush, which was the only reason that his arrow took Smaug down, besides you know, being a magic arrow.

'Old fool! Why there is a large patch in the hallow of his left breast as bare as a snail out of its shell!'
From the Hobbit Page 274.
Chapter 12 Inside Information.

"Wait! Wait!" it (The Thrush) said to him. "The moon is rising. Look for the hallow of the left breast as he flies and turns above you!" And while Bard paused in wonder it told him of the tidings up in the Mountain and of all that it had heard.
Then Bard drew his bow-string to his ear. The dragon was circling back, flying low, and as he came the moon rose above the eastern shore and silvered his great wings. The Hobbit Page 300. Chapter 14 Fire and Water
"Arrow!" said the bowman. "Black arrow! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from old. If ever you came from the forges of the true King under the Mountain, go now and speed well!"
The great bow twanged. The black arrow sped straight from the string, straight for the hollow by the left breast where the foreleg was flung wide. In it smote and vanished, barb, shaft and feather, so fierce was its flight. With a shriek that deafened men, felled trees and split stone, Smaug shot spouting into the air, turned over and crashed down from on high in ruin. The Hobbit Page 301.
Chapter 14 Fire and Water

The Lake roared in. A vast stream leapt up, white in the sudden dark under the moon. There was a hiss, a gushing whirl, and then silence. And that was the end of Smaug. The Hobbit Page 301.
Chapter 14 Fire and Water

oops, accidentally spelt some things incorrectly.

Originally posted by Kadan

It seems you misunderstood the point of the book.
Smaug's scales were impervious to nearly all weapons, but his underbelly was soft, so to compensate for it, Smaug slept upon the treasures of Erebor, which allowed bits off gold and jewels to embed themselves in his underbelly, this diamond wastcoat was intended to cover his only weak spot, however Bilbo discovered a bare patch on the left side of Smaug's underbelly. Bard was told about that spot by the thrush, which was the only reason that his arrow took Smaug down, besides you know, being a magic arrow.

'Old fool! Why there is a large patch in the hallow of his left breast as bare as a snail out of its shell!'
From the Hobbit Page 274.
Chapter 12 Inside Information.

"Wait! Wait!" it (The Thrush) said to him. "The moon is rising. Look for the hallow of the left breast as he flies and turns above you!" And while Bard paused in wonder it told him of the tidings up in the Mountain and of all that it had heard.
Then Bard drew his bow-string to his ear. The dragon was circling back, flying low, and as he came the moon rose above the eastern shore and silvered his great wings. The Hobbit Page 300. Chapter 14 Fire and Water
"Arrow!" said the bowman. "Black arrow! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from old. If ever you came from the forges of the true King under the Mountain, go now and speed well!"
The great bow twanged. The black arrow sped straight from the string, straight for the hollow by the left breast where the foreleg was flung wide. In it smote and vanished, barb, shaft and feather, so fierce was its flight. With a shriek that deafened men, felled trees and split stone, Smaug shot spouting into the air, turned over and crashed down from on high in ruin. The Hobbit Page 301.
Chapter 14 Fire and Water

The Lake roared in. A vast stream leapt up, white in the sudden dark under the moon. There was a hiss, a gushing whirl, and then silence. And that was the end of Smaug. The Hobbit Page 301.
Chapter 14 Fire and Water None of that contradicted a single thing I said.

Smaug went out like a pussy.

Any good elven archer with a magic arrow could replicate the feat.

Originally posted by NemeBro
None of that contradicted a single thing I said.

Smaug went out like a pussy.

Any good elven archer with a magic arrow could replicate the feat.

And how does a simple elven archer know his weak spot?
It's not like a elf will get the chance to stare at Smaug's underbelly for more then a second when he's flying in the air, or blasting fire at them.
And Bard's arrow was special, alluded to being forged by the dwarves, or by something else entirely.
It never broke, at all.
Elven arrows do brake bro
So do explain bro.

Originally posted by Kadan

And how does a simple elven archer know his weak spot?

Probably the same way Bard and Frodo did. By looking at it. It was hard to miss.



Like Bard didn't? Oh wait, he shot him out of the air like a *****.

Sure, some elves may die. But it only takes one to hit him.



So just like Beleg's arrow, Dailir?

The elves can easily replicate all that makes Bard's fruity little arrow worth a shit, and there are elves among them with the skill to shoot Smaug down. Without a doubt.

Smaug is ultimately disappointing for his supposed power. Compare him to Durin's Bane.

I did. One managed to conquer a kingdom of dwarves in a matter of hours. The other took around a year.

Smaug>Durin's Bane.

One was killed by an arrow used by a mortal man in a matter of minutes. Even then, Smaug had to horde jewels on his underbelly to ward off such attacks, because he had a huge vulnerability.

The other was unassailable to all but Gandalf, the strongest of the Fellowship, and it took him days to do so. He also died during the combat. Durin's Bane also isn't indicated to have been proactive in his destruction of Moria (or in anything really) like Smaug was in his attack on Erebor.

One is killed by nobody with a sissy arrow, the other by an Istari in a prolonged fight that took said Istari's life. It is clear who is more impressive.

Yep. The who destroyed armies and razed cities in a matter of hours.

They both have done that.

Only one did it in hours.

The other assassinated a king and it wasn't until sometime the following year that the dwarves fled.

Where is it mentioned that the Balrog destroyed their armies? I'll wait.

"Durin was slain by it, and the year after Nain I, his son; and then the glory of Moria passed, and its people were destroyed or fled far away."
- Lord of the Rings appendix A, Durin's Folk

Also, when the dwarves had an army (one powerful enough to besiege every goblin stronghold one by one in the Misty Mountains) during the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, they refused to delve into Khazad-dum because they feared to face the Balrog.

So no mention of him leading an army against the balrog and it destroying the army. Ok.

BTW, those dwarves are the same ones who fled Erebor after Smaug conquered it. Nor did they bother delving back into the Lonely Mountain either.

Originally posted by ares834
So no mention of him leading an army against the balrog and it destroying the army. Ok.

BTW, those dwarves are the same ones who fled Erebor after Smaug conquered it. And the dwarves of Erebor are the same ones who fled Moria after the Balrog conquered it.

Smaug was only having his fun with Durin's Bane's sloppy seconds.

Smaug ain't picky.

Smaug and Durin's Bane had no direct influence from Sauron following the War of the Silmarils. It is however inferred in Tolkien's notes that he would make deals with them. Using Smaug to destroy Erebor, Dale and Thranduil's kingdom. Durin's Bane to break Moria and Lorien.

Knocking out some of the greatest kingdoms among the Free People's and allow Sauron massive gains in the field with little expense of his own.

It is the same as deceiving Numenor into an attack on Valinor and using Angmar to wipe out Arnor.