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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udd3DYiNut0&list=UUmGocOQitUA-GeV-9CX_VWA

Summary of his argument: Mara and Malgus are evenly matched in sabers and force, but Mara's unpredictability would give her the win against Malgus.

What are your thoughts on his analysis?

I don't know much about Mara, but aside from ambushing Caedus and almost killing him, I assumed she wasn't all too powerful (at least not powerful enough to compete with Malgus).

Could Mara beat Malgus?

Force, sabers, all-out

Malgus kicks her ass

Originally posted by carthage
Malgus kicks her ass

Agreed lol. Malgus stomps.

I admittedly don't know much about Mara, but she was powerful enough to be trained as Palpatine's Hand and held her own/bested(i'm not sure which one it was) Lumiya. I'd go with Malgus - if only because two of my friends stuffed his feats done my throat -_-

Mara. She has much better feats.

Not really.

Originally posted by red8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udd3DYiNut0&list=UUmGocOQitUA-GeV-9CX_VWA

Summary of his argument: Mara and Malgus are evenly matched in sabers and force, but Mara's unpredictability would give her the win against Malgus.

What are your thoughts on his analysis?

It was absolutely perfect.

Originally posted by red8
I don't know much about Mara, but aside from ambushing Caedus and almost killing him, I assumed she wasn't all too powerful (at least not powerful enough to compete with Malgus).

See that's the problem right there. Too many people on this board seem to think power is everything. It's not. Brains beat brawn.

Mara would beat Malgus because she's smarter. Malgus isn't stupid but as EvanNova95 pointed out, he doesn't mind his surroundings. Mara does. She's more unorthodox, versatile, adaptable etc. She'd win by outwitting him.

Originally posted by red8
Could Mara beat Malgus?

Certainly.

Malgus beats her ass. Unlike Caedus he's not got compromised judgement and shitty tactics.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
It was absolutely perfect.

Are you literally these youtube guys?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus beats her ass. Unlike Caedus he's not got compromised judgement and shitty tactics.

Actually he does. Notice how Malcolm catches him completely off-guard, how he fails to notice Durach throwing a lightsabre at him or Satele dropping a tree on him? Notice how he never uses similar tactics himself? Malgus just doesn't mind his surroundings.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you literally these youtube guys?

Nope, just a big fan of theirs.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Actually he does. Notice how Malcolm catches him completely off-guard, how he fails to notice Durach throwing a lightsabre at him or Satele dropping a tree on him? Notice how he never uses similar tactics himself? Malgus just doesn't mind his surroundings.

I was talking about something different. A big reason Mara did so well against Jacen was because he needed to shut her up so he had to follow her when she ran and hid and set up an ambush. If she got away, he was screwed. Malgus doesn't need to fall for those tactics.

As to your point, Malcolm had been previously taken out by Malgus. He didn't know the guy was tough enough to still be running around and pose a threat. And he did notice him, he just didn't get out of the way in time. And he also did notice Satele dropping a tree on him, hence why he jumped out of the way. AND he did use similar tactics. In his fight with Aryn Leneer he pulls the ground out from under her rather than attack her directly at one point. AND AND in the Third Lesson he is able to correctly guess the Zabrak Jedi was leading him into a trap, sense his companion and kill him from his hiding place, showing good judgement and ability to mind his surroundings.

So really the only times he "didn't mind his surroundings" was when he was attacked out of nowhere by a second person right before he finished off his immediate opponent. And even then he had the foresight to sense a trap and deal with it, while hugely wounded I might add. And he won't be dealing with a second attacker here, so its not really relevant. And it would hardly be a significant weakness if it was true anyway. I don't see why it should matter at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was talking about something different. A big reason Mara did so well against Jacen was because he needed to shut her up so he had to follow her when she ran and hid and set up an ambush. If she got away, he was screwed. Malgus doesn't need to fall for those tactics.

As to your point, Malcolm had been previously taken out by Malgus. He didn't know the guy was tough enough to still be running around and pose a threat. And he did notice him, he just didn't get out of the way in time. And he also did notice Satele dropping a tree on him, hence why he jumped out of the way. AND he did use similar tactics. In his fight with Aryn Leneer he pulls the ground out from under her rather than attack her directly at one point. AND AND in the Third Lesson he is able to correctly guess the Zabrak Jedi was leading him into a trap, sense his companion and kill him from his hiding place, showing good judgement and ability to mind his surroundings.

So really the only times he "didn't mind his surroundings" was when he was attacked out of nowhere by a second person right before he finished off his immediate opponent. And even then he had the foresight to sense a trap and deal with it, while hugely wounded I might add. And he won't be dealing with a second attacker here, so its not really relevant. And it would hardly be a significant weakness if it was true anyway. I don't see why it should matter at all.

And both times weren't really failings on Malgus part. If he didn't attack Satele after he'd disarmed her, well he'd be a ****ing idiot and let her recover immediately which she did. It was more Vindicans failing for not being able to keep Darach engaged. Malgus going for the killing blow was him making the right call. And against Malcolm, well he did notice him but he was screwed either way. He takes pressure off Satele to deal with Malcolm and she'd paste him into the landscape. Which she did.

Originally posted by red8



Mara Jade's one of the stronger masters in the New Jedi Order. You know Kyle Katarn, who's quite famous? They were co-masters. That is to say, they worked together to teach each other more in the force because they considered each other equals.


Her danger sense was possibly more honed than Luke's (Luke would rely on her's above her own, since she'd had to rely on hers more). Jade's used force lightning (yes, as a Jedi), and could levitate herself through the air via the force (not really a combat thing, but force flight isn't exactly common).

She doesnt have the feats to compete with Malgus. There are others who would pose a bigger challenge to him from that era

Ok, finally got an opportunity to dig up some feats.

1. Fight against C'baot. Luke at that time was pretty much a powerhouse as it was only a year prior to DE.

Luke gets overpowered by C'baot:
"Luke dropped his lightsaber back into defense position, senses again tingling with danger. But once again, the knowledge did him little good. C'baoth's lightning burst flashed against the lightsaber blade, the impact knocking Luke off balance and dropping him painfully onto his knees in the pile of stones around him. Even as he struggled to get up, one of the falling rocks slammed hard into the side of his head. He staggered, toppling sideways onto one hand. Again the lightning flashed, throwing coronal fire all through the stone pile and sending wave after wave of agony through him. The lightsaber was plucked from his fingers; dimly he saw it fly over the railing toward the far end of the throne room".

If anyone doubts potency of C'baot's lighning:
"The lightning flashed again.
And with a crack of exploding metal the center of the catwalk split apart".


Mara was able to resist C'baot's attack:
"Raising her lightsaber, she charged.
C'baoth swung around to face her, his face contorted with rage. "No!" he screamed; and again the blue-white lightning crackled from his fingertips. Mara caught the burst on her lightsaber, her mad rush faltering as coronal fire burned all around her. C'baoth fired again and again, backing toward the throne and the solid wall behind it. Doggedly, Mara kept coming".

Considering that it is Mara before her prime, it's quite impressive.

2. Lord Nyax. First, a bit of strength, speed and Force feats from him:

Speed:
"In the corner of her eye, she saw the voxyn charge Lord Nyax. He dodged under the beast's leap and flexed an arm. His elbow-blade sheared through the voxyn's gut, slicing the beast cleanly in two. It landed in pieces behind him". He killed a Voxyn with a single move. In comparison for Jedi strike team in Star by Star killing Voxyn was a "routine" work while working as a team.

Strength:
"The pale thing spun, sending its knee blade toward Denua Ku's guts. He blocked the sweep with his amphistaff, but the impact was tremendous; it threw him back off his feet. He rolled backward and came upright, saw one of his warriors perform a similar probing assault... and this warrior took a forearm blade through the throat."

"He stopped a forearm-swing and was driven back a step, stopped the follow-up elbow swing and was driven back a step, jumped back to avoid the knee-strike and discovered it was only a feint; Lord Nyax's leg snapped back and caught a Yuuzhan Vong warrior in the crotch, collapsing the warrior despite its armor."

On top of that Force feats like nearly mind dominating Luke, Mara and Tahiri simultaniously. And more crazy stuff, when fight was at Force nexus.

Mara was able to keep up with Nyax' strength and speed just like Luke, which is very impressive.

3. Fight against Lumiya:
We know that in the book Luke faced Lumiya several times. He required shoto in order to counter her lightwhip. After Mara's death he was confident enough to face her without shoto and the best he managed is drive her back until she falls from a cliff.

Here is how Mara fared against Lumiya in comparison:
"She Force-leapt five meters at Lumiya, slashing down right to left, two-handed. The stroke-all power, no finesse-clipped the Sith's headdress as she sprang back, slicing off a section. Lumiya's eyes widened, pupils dilated, but she was already whirling her lightwhip about her head. The tails crackled and hissed, missing Mara only because she threw all her energy into a Force push to slow them a fraction.

Mara didn't take that weapon lightly. It was the worst of both worlds, leather strips studded with impervious Mandalorian iron fragments and tendrils of sheer, raw, murderous dark energy. Mara drew her blaster and rolled under the hull of the ship next to her. The light-whip gouged through the durasteel with a shriek of tearing metal, filling the air with the smell of hydraulic fluid, and the spurt of liquid turned into a torrent that began spreading in a thick pool. As Mara rolled clear on the other side of the ship, Lumiya landed heavily on both feet and brought the whip down so close to Mara's head that she felt the rush of air on her right cheek like a breath. The crack was deafening.

Mara wasn't even thinking when she aimed the blaster. Lumiya's whip hand was raised to throw as much weight as possible from the back stroke. A puff of white vapor burst from Lumiya's shoulder, and she staggered a few paces.

Metal. Maybe I hit metal.

Maybe she had, because Lumiya teetered for a second but came right back. Mara sprang horizontally from a crouch and cannoned into Lumiya's legs with all the power she could muster from the Force. She hit solid durasteel. Blood filled her mouth but she couldn't feel a thing-yet. Clinging to Lumiya's knees with one arm, denying her the space to swing the whip, she brought her down like a felled tree before smashing her head into the woman's face.

And that hurt. Oh yes, Mara felt that. She'd caught not Lumiya's nose but the cybernetic jaw, and it cut deep into her forehead. Fighting on pure reflex now, part stunned, she killed the lightsaber blade for a second and held the hilt like a dagger, stabbing it down into Lumiya's chest before flicking the energy back on. Lumiya pulled to the side as the blade punched through flesh. Mara smelled it. She flicked off the blade to pull back again, triumphant."

Mara demonstrated much deadlier style of fighting against Lumiya and that just like Luke she could take down Lumiya without the need of a shoto. It is, yet, another perfect feat demonstrating that she is not far behind Luke and Caedus.

I made my case.

Malgus can take Lumiya as well.

Yeah, not sure what that was meant to establish.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, not sure what that was meant to establish.
That she is in the same league as Luke.

http://media.giphy.com/media/dC9DTdqPmRnlS/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Arhael
That she is in the same league as Luke.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/74798/1753462-star_wars_darth_sidious_rotflmfao.jpg

Like it or not I gave three good examples, where she fairs more or less as good as Luke and that's excluding example with Caedus. That's consistent enough. Obviously she is not as powerful as Luke, hence she doesn't have good TK feats but that doesn't make her any less lethal in combat.

Wow.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/ac31de301c04fa331d0de4fa5bc3feb4/tumblr_mgnckcO2N01r93xiko1_500.gif

Luke didn't beat Desann.
Kyle did.

Kyle better than Luke confirmed.

Originally posted by Arhael
That she is in the same league as Luke.


nopity

Originally posted by Arhael
Like it or not I gave three good examples, where she fairs more or less as good as Luke and that's excluding example with Caedus. That's consistent enough. Obviously she is not as powerful as Luke, hence she doesn't have good TK feats but that doesn't make her any less lethal in combat.

I also completely disagree with Mara being in Luke's league. I think Mara can outclass Luke in any type of espionage or other spy work, but in battle there is a drastic difference.

I view Mara's combat peers as being people like Kyle Katarn, Kyp Durron, Corran Horn, Saba Sebatyne, and many other Masters that I would place into the 2nd highest tier of Jedi, with the top tier consisting of the likes of Yoda, Luke, Mace, etc.

Refrencing your post involving Nyax: if that elevates Mara to Luke's level, does it also elevate Tahiri to Luke's level? Nyax outclassed all 3 of them.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I also completely disagree with Mara being in Luke's league. I think Mara can outclass Luke in any type of espionage or other spy work, but in battle there is a drastic difference.

I view Mara's combat peers as being people like Kyle Katarn, Kyp Durron, Corran Horn, Saba Sebatyne, and many other Masters that I would place into the 2nd highest tier of Jedi, with the top tier consisting of the likes of Yoda, Luke, Mace, etc.

Refrencing your post involving Nyax: if that elevates Mara to Luke's level, does it also elevate Tahiri to Luke's level? Nyax outclassed all 3 of them.

It's all really opinion based. You put Luke, Mace and Yoda in the same league. Yet, we know that Mace is not as powerful as Yoda. And both Mace and Yoda are not as powerful as Luke. Easiest way to put Yoda and Windu in the same league is by comparing performance against Sidious. I did the same thing by comparing Luke's and Mara's performance against Nyax, Lumiya and Caedus.

Putting Mara in the same league with Kyle Katarn and Kyp Durron is plain wrong. Darkside Kyle on darkside nexus was unable to defeat Mara in combat. Caedus had no problem fighting Kyle with three other Jedi, while barely survived Mara alone.
Kyp Durron at best is on level with Kyle, or at least that's how Luke evaluated him in FotJ. And we know that Kyp is nowhere as good as Luke based on performance against Slayers.

As of Tahiri Veila, good point but, yes, that shows that she is a powerful Jedi too.
Years later she demonstrated quiet a few good feats. Like forming Force shield to block turbolaser bombardment like Caedus. When Abeloth tried to mind dominate her, she was able to resist. When Abeloth threw a head that exploded with dark energy, Tahiri blocked it with a Force barrier too.
While Tahiri was young, when she fought Nyax, she already had years of experience gained from Yuuzhan Vong war. Unlike normal wars, it was physical combat oriented, where she had to heavily rely on lightsaber combat skills. It makes sense that she reached her potential earlier than other Force users normally do. At one point she even survived huge explosion by forming Force barrier around her and that was before fight with Nyax, a weak Jedi would not be able to accomplish such impressive feat.

Mara and Kyle openly thought of themselves as equals.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mara and Kyle openly thought of themselves as equals.
And Luke thought Jaina to be equal of anyone in the Order, hence made her a Master. Thinking doesn't help here.

She totes was doe.