The Juggernaut

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by KingD19
Just hitting him won't bfr him due to his durability and his force field.

Thor had to get him stuck in a fusion of cement and metal with help from his lightning and Firestar melting the area around Cain, then move the container into space. The other time he had to loop Mjolnir around Cain's wrist and send it off. How would Ben do it? By breaking his face against Cain's hand?

Spider-Man merely got him pissed and covered his eyes, tricking him into stumbling into a cement pit.

I've heard somebody say Juggernaut's enchantment prevents him from sinking and that he can swim in water. That doesn't square with anything else I know about him, and certainly not the cement finish. I'm thinking Ben tricking Jug onto the Fantasti-car or some near-equivalent should make it easy enough to dunk Juggy into the nearest deep body of water. New York sits at the mouth of a harbour, and fairly deep portions of the Atlantic are only a mile or two away ...

Digi

I was hoping this wasn't a vs., and that OP just wanted to remind us that "THE JUGGERNAUT"

riv6672

Originally posted by KingD19
So during this fight you're assuming that at some point Thing will gain the upper hand? And once again, his forcefield means that Thing will not be able to BFR him.

Your scenarios are hilarious btw.

Stranger things have happened than a weaker character getting the upper hand in a fight.
You thinking it couldnt happen is hilarious too.

KingD19

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Spider-Man merely got him pissed and covered his eyes, tricking him into stumbling into a cement pit.

I've heard somebody say Juggernaut's enchantment prevents him from sinking and that he can swim in water. That doesn't square with anything else I know about him, and certainly not the cement finish. I'm thinking Ben tricking Jug onto the Fantasti-car or some near-equivalent should make it easy enough to dunk Juggy into the nearest deep body of water. New York sits at the mouth of a harbour, and fairly deep portions of the Atlantic are only a mile or two away ...

Well if I'm blind I might walk into a cement pit too. But where do you think they're fighting that Ben has access to all this BFR material? OP certainly doesn't mention it. If Ben just has e fantasti-car lying around, I can just as easily say Cain brought Black Tom along and he's blasting the hell out of the other guy to distract them.

And in his classic days, Cain's enchantment did prevent him from sinking. He swam after the X-Men faster than he could run, and even Jean keeping him lifted up with TK just made him walk on the air.

Originally posted by riv6672
Stranger things have happened than a weaker character getting the upper hand in a fight.
You thinking it couldnt happen is hilarious too.

You clearly don't get it. Thing literally can't touch him through that force field. And he can't be moved by anything Thing can dish out. So how will he bfr him if he can't even make him move?

riv6672

By fighting smart.

If Juggernaut were that all powerful then he'd be ruling the world, wouldnt he?

Edit:
I can see we're already at the "no one's changing their minds now we're just posting for no real reason" phase. So, no offense meant on my part. Have a goodun'!

KingD19

What environment do you think they're fighting in? OP didn't specify which means featureless environment unless they changed that.

And Thing fights with heart, not smarts. All he does is try to outmuscle the other guy, and if that won't work, he just takes a beating.

I'd also like to point out that every single time any version of Juggernaut has fought Thing, Rock Man lost; regardless of environment.

BIGWHITESEXY

Creel could stalemate creed by absorbing his enchantment.

riv6672

Originally posted by riv6672
I can see we're already at the "no one's changing their minds now we're just posting for no real reason" phase. So, no offense meant on my part. Have a goodun'!

Originally posted by KingD19
Posting at RIV6672 for no reason.

Well...i tried. laughing

tkitna

Wonder if Creel could actually absorb the enchantment? I have my doubts.

riv6672

He's absorbed magical energies before, i think it'd be interesting to see!

KingD19

He's never absorbed something as esoteric as an enchantment though. Even the more exotic stuff he's absorbed he's had some way of interacting with. He absorbed Sentry's energy, Hulk's gamma energy, Asgard, etc... But that is stuff that can be interacted with and drained.

He could probably absorb his powers through touching the Ruby, but even if he could take it directly from Cain, Cytorrak would more than likely say no deal and yank the powers away.

There's a possibility, but there's just as much if not more possibility that he wouldn't be able to.

riv6672

So now we disagree on Thor's hammer not being esoteric and/or enchanted.

Gonna save us both time: not changing my mind.

wink

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by KingD19

What environment do you think they're fighting in? OP didn't specify which means featureless environment unless they changed that.

On the contrary.

The original poster of this thread (OP) DID specify where they're fighting.

Check out his opening post again:

Originally posted by Supermex
Who wins?
No prep..

Cls.Juggernaut

Vs

1.Colossus

2.Thing

3.Crusher Creel

4.Flint Marko

5.Sasquatch

6.Rulk

7.Cls.Abomination

8.Cls.Hercules

Can Juggy clear the list?
Juggy gets no health insurance or regain after each fight.

All fights happen in NYC.

Can Juggy clear it?

"All fights happen in New York City" (NYC).

Which is not a featureless environment at all.

It's big buildings near big ocean with lots of interact-able resources in and around this area.

Supermex

Op said all fights take place in NYC

Supermex

Thanks Bluewaterrider

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by KingD19

1. if I'm blind I might walk into a cement pit too.

2. where do you think they're fighting that Ben has access to all this BFR material?

3. OP certainly doesn't mention it.

4. If Ben just has e fantasti-car lying around, I can just as easily say Cain brought Black Tom along and he's blasting the hell out of the other guy to distract them.

5. in his classic days, Cain's enchantment did prevent him from sinking. He swam after the X-Men faster than he could run, and even Jean keeping him lifted up with TK just made him walk on the air.

6. You clearly don't get it. Thing literally can't touch him through that force field.

7. And he can't be moved by anything Thing can dish out. So how will he bfr him if he can't even make him move?

1. He also did it to himself by jumping into a clothing store whereupon a coat fell on his head ... (Marve Team Up, final issue, Spider-Man + X-Men, MTU#150 iirc)

2. New York City.

3. OP does mention it

4. This is a scenario matchup. It's fine if you don't want to allow it, but that is the first thing that came to mind, and is indeed something Ben would have access to under normal "fighting in NYC" conditions. Also he's used vehicles to try for battlefield BFR before. Not all of them WORKED, mind you, but he did try to use them to do that.

5. Scans or absolutely none of that happened.
What you're saying doesn't make much sense even by comic book standards, and is directly contradicted by the events of Juggernaut's first encounter with Spider-Man.

6. The forcefield is not always active. He had a forcefield in MTU #150, after all. Rogue still managed to touch him and absorb his power when caught in Jug's bearhug.
7. Juggernaut was moved by Spider-Man yanking a sewer plate out from underneath him. So was Black Tom. If you can't move Juggernaut, move the ground he's standing on. Thing is more than strong enough to accomplish that.

Given #7, I'd be interested to see how far Thing has successfully tossed a weight of about a thousand pounds. If its over a mile or two, Thing could certainly BFR Juggy by throwing him out into New York Harbor.

In THAT body of water, at least, Juggy sinks instead of floating.
(See first Spider-Man versus Juggernaut fight.)

riv6672

Looks like i had a few valid reasons to change my mind on Ben after all. stick out tongue

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

7. Juggernaut was moved by Spider-Man yanking a sewer plate out from underneath him. So was Black Tom. If you can't move Juggernaut, move the ground he's standing on. Thing is more than strong enough to accomplish that.

Given #7, I'd be interested to see how far Thing has successfully tossed a weight of about a thousand pounds. If its over a mile or two, Thing could certainly BFR Juggy by throwing him out into New York Harbor.

In THAT body of water, at least, Juggy sinks instead of floating.
(See first Spider-Man versus Juggernaut fight.)

juggerman

Originally posted by Supermex
Who wins?

Originally posted by Supermex
The Juggernaut

DarkSaint85

Juggernaut didn't walk on the air, but:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128211/2844055-650786-feat14_1__super.jpg

That is what people are referring to.

bluewaterrider

mmm

That's actually not QUITE so far-fetched as I thought, then.

I can see how that would get conflated into "walking on air" over the course of time, too ...

Actually, I have heard, think I've even seen, images from bygone day where somebody actually DID walk on air, though it wasn't the Juggernaut.

Certainly Doctor Strange and Invisible Woman are adept at tricks like that ...

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
mmm

Actually, I have heard, think I've even seen, images from bygone day where somebody actually DID walk on air, though it wasn't the Juggernaut.

xb-pX7sIjFY

bluewaterrider

That's the kind of cartoon that used to give me nightmares as a kid.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by KingD19

Thing fights with heart, not smarts. All he does is try to outmuscle the other guy, and if that won't work, he just takes a beating.

confused

Have you ever actually seen the Thing FIGHT an opponent in Juggernaut's class?

Check out Fantastic Four #s 25 and 26 when you get the chance.

bluewaterrider

Flyattractor

On the Ult Spidey toon. Spidey just beat Cain with electro webs. So I guess electricity will now work against the Juggernaut.

Its Disney so its CANON!

riv6672

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
confused

Have you ever actually seen the Thing FIGHT an opponent in Juggernaut's class?

Check out Fantastic Four #s 25 and 26 when you get the chance.
Yeah, he obviously hasnt, or is choosing to overlook things to make a point...

KingD19

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
confused

Have you ever actually seen the Thing FIGHT an opponent in Juggernaut's class?

Check out Fantastic Four #s 25 and 26 when you get the chance.

Haven't read those issues. But every time he fights the Hulk does he not try to slug it out with him?

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by KingD19
Haven't read those issues. But every time he fights the Hulk does he not try to slug it out with him?

You might be in for a treat. Hulk versus Thing from this arc is hailed as classic.

ODG was kind enough to post this in his Hulk Respect Thread:

Enjoy!

Savage Hulk vs Thing, from Fantastic Four #25:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20T-Z/HulkvsThing01FF025.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20T-Z/HulkvsThing02.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20T-Z/HulkvsThing03.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20T-Z/HulkvsThing04.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20T-Z/HulkvsThing05.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20T-Z/HulkvsThing06.jpg

Savage Hulk vs Thing continued, from Fantastic Four #26:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20T-Z/HulkvsThing07FF026.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20T-Z/HulkvsThing08.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Hulk%20Fights%20T-Z/HulkvsThing09.jpg

KingD19

Very interesting from Thing. But are there more than those two occurences? Because there are several more fights with Hulk I believe, and a fight with Thing vs Colossalnaut where he just tries to outbrawl him despite being the weaker of the two.

riv6672

So, One loss, the rest toss ups, one one win via BFR for Ben Grimm.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by KingD19

Very interesting from Thing. But are there more than those two occurences? Because there are several more fights with Hulk I believe, and a fight with Thing vs Colossalnaut where he just tries to outbrawl him despite being the weaker of the two.

Actually Ben tries a bit more than that, but it's easy to miss.

For starters, it was actually a bit of a double team; C-naught was actually knocked over to Ben by Red Hulk; he made the mistake of thinking all he had to do was finish Peter with a simple ground and pound.

When he discovered Pete was tougher than normal, Thing actually showed resourcefulness by trying to get Pete to choke or trigger his gag reflex, something by Ben's own admission he had never attempted before.

I was actually debating using that to help make Sandman's case, recalling that Juggernaut actually seemed to show some small discomfort at being smothered in the wet cement Spider-Man used to finish their battle.

But I could not recall if Colossusnaut actually possessed the full forcefield Classic Cain Marko did. Certainly Classic Cain could be touched despite it, Spider-Man could not have blinded him, or held on long enough to make him stumble into that cement foundation if Classic Jug could not be, to say little of what Rogue was 2 or 3 times able to do.

Recall now the following, though, and realize that, besides pinpoint throwing accuracy, Thing DOES demonstrate thought beyond that of a pure brawler, and will use his environment to gain advantage in a rough enough engagement:

juggerman

Ha! I forgot Ben tried to choke Colossonaut!!!!

Juggernaut should still pound Ben's face off but Ben is more tactical than he's given credit for

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by KingD19
Very interesting from Thing. But are there more than those two occurrences? Because there are several more fights with Hulk I believe, and a fight with Thing vs Colossalnaut where he just tries to outbrawl him despite being the weaker of the two.

I don't recall every Hulk/Thing battle.
I don't even HAVE every Hulk/Thing battle.

Visiting ODG's Hulk Respect Thread, specifically the "Fight" Section under "Thing" (NOT Fantastic Four, which will give you slightly different entries even for the same quoted issues) will give you a number of hits, though.

I suspect you'll find, with the possible exception of "Pineapple" Thing versus Hulk Doombot and "Mr. Fixit" Gray Hulk, that Thing is a thinking fighter that does indeed take into consideration who his opponent is and how he might handle them.

Actually, even with "Pineapple" Thing, where Ben at first IS just being a brawler, precisely because he wants to see if he's FINALLY able to match against Hulk's strength with his own now greatly increased strength
(a result of the mutation that earned him the "Pineapple" nickname from fans to begin with),

Ben Grimm demonstrates the ability to stop, re-examine what is happening, and try something NEW on his opponent.

In that Hulk Doombot battle, for instance, where Doom
(though not actually the builder of that robot Doctor Doom is the one that sends it after Thing)
tries to make Thing believe the robot is the real deal,
Ben snaps-to because he realizes in every case before, he was stopped by Hulk's strength steadily increasing while they fought.

That's an extraordinary difficulty to overcome, but Pineapple Thing realized he wasn't experiencing it here.

So he realized the ONLY Thing this Hulk could be was a fake, likely a machine.
Ben switches tactics, and goes from conventional brawling to applying straight pressure. The machine cracks under it, revealing this "Green" Hulk was just a ruse of Doom's.

It's like that in many Hulk battles, though.
Ben realizes Hulk is stronger and cannot be met ONLY with brawling.

He brawls to the extent necessary to put some OTHER plan in motion, often one that his partners executing the true "put away" part. He is largely distracting or delaying Hulk in those cases, and he KNOWS it.

Notice that when he is bereft of partners, though, Thing tries to use his environment to compensate, and, in either case, actively avoids being a pure brawling tank. And, yes, this includes battlefield removal (BFR) of his opponent, if only to move his opponent to a place where innocents won't be harmed, and, as you saw in the FF 25/26 affair, somewhere with resources he thinks might even the odds.

Actually it was a scan in my collection I happened to be flipping through that REMINDED me of that FF battle; Thing actively trying to BFR Hulk by railcar, which mirrored that scene you saw of the Yancy Street Gang trying to remove Hulk from Thing with that rolling wagon-like vehicle.

Unfortunately, unlike in the FF 25/26 battle where he just springs surprises on Hulk, and which he would not do if fighting to the best of his ability as KMC protocol dictates, Thing makes the mistake of TELLING Hulk he is trying to BFR him ...

bluewaterrider

I'll use LoebSupergirl to illustrate the basic strategy for dealing with ground limited tanks like Juggernaut.

Of course, Ben will need to struggle a LOT more to achieve this than Kara would, but it's worth posting the basic idea and reminding that Hulk, Rogue, and Spider-Man have all achieved this.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc141/Supergirl_Respect/clay3.jpg

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by KingD19

... Thing gets beat down in one move Cain did the other time they fought.

First, I should make clear that, unlike many a poster on KMC, I have little if any problem with the premise that ANY character who can be taken down with physical punches can be taken down with a single punch, as a general rule.

Second, I will certainly allow that there is some Thing versus Juggernaut engagement that I missed and am not aware of.

But if you are trying to use what I THINK you are trying to use to say Jug one-shotted Thing ...

well, that's not QUITE what happened.

For, more than likely ...?
You're referring to Secret Wars II #7.

Where Mephisto has some plan he names "Beyondersbane" that involves empowering Thing and a host of others to take on the being known as The Beyonder (pre-Retcon) long enough for a powerful machine to destroy ALL of them.

Thing, massively empowered by Mephisto, for reasons explained in the article obtained by clicking this blue hyperlink below
(article contains multiple images from the comic itself) ...

http://peerlesspower.blogspot.com/2014/02/charge-of-dark-brigade.html

... faces the Juggernaut after being subsequently and fully DEpowered, though Ben mistakenly thinks he still has the mystic might that enabled him to take on score of villains, some even as powerful as Absorbing Man, oft time THOR level opponent.

IN that mistaken belief, having just a moment ago had power enough to tank everything the group threw at him, Ben wrongly believes he can take anything Cain can dish out, too.
He's not one-shotted, but Ben IS caught off guard, and is beaten down in a few panels.

Not one, but a few.

And, again, he was only caught by the first because he mistakenly thought he still had power that, more than likely, WOULD have enabled him to take Cain's best.

What's significant about this, though, and relevant to the discussion, is that even after taking a beatdown barrage from Juggernaut, Ben still reveals strength enough to physically topple Juggernaut. He grabs Juggernaut's foot midstride as Jug advances on the Beyonder, and brings him down to the ground facefirst.

So we're shown Ben does apparently have strength enough to grab Classic Juggernaut and physically move him. Directly.
Even as Hulk did before him, and as Rogue would a little later.
(Or earlier. In the case of Rogue, I'm not really sure when the battles took place. All of this was sometime round the mid-80s, if memory serves.)

And, as shown before, not only does Ben have the tendency to try and "re-locate" his opponents to more suitable venues mid-battle, or even BFR them completely, Juggernaut's physical mass has proven manipulate-able by Spider-man level tactics.

In the event that he can't move Juggy himself, he can simply pick up whatever Juggy himself is standing on, and throw BOTH of them as far away as possible.

Given Ben's strength, that should be quite far, Fantastic Car and other vehicles, which he HAS been shown to use midbattle (driving a vacant speedboat and forcing Hulk away via railcar in 2 separate) in NYC, notwithstanding.

Again, in New York City, where Juggy has demonstrated an INability to avoid sinking either in water or wet cement, Thing should be able to move Cain somewhat at will, and, at the very least, delay and remove him far enough to score the BFR the poster of this thread asked for.

juggerman

This is Classic Juggernaut, with no PIS/CIS, fighting at his full capability right? Meaning his force field should never ever be off. Thing wouldn't be able to touch him or move him in anyway. Lifting the ground he's standing would would require Cain to pretty much stand still and let him do so. In a forum fight that would never happen

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by juggerman
This is Classic Juggernaut, with no PIS/CIS, fighting at his full capability right? Meaning his force field should never ever be off. Thing wouldn't be able to touch him or move him in anyway. Lifting the ground he's standing would would require Cain to pretty much stand still and let him do so. In a forum fight that would never happen

This is simply not so.

Even with his forcefield on Jug has to obey the laws of gravity, and it doesn't take anyone beyond Spider-Man level to rip up the street somebody's standing on.

You show me where Juggernaut, no matter HOW "Classic" and forcefielded, has ever been able to resist the ground beneath him being moved or destroyed.

Prove to me even conceptually, beyond your screenname, why you even think he SHOULD be able to.

It's something that takes less than a second to accomplish, and, even back in the 60s and 70s Juggernaut had no answer for this.

The simple fact of the matter is, Juggernaut is not super-speedy in comparison to Thing, and Juggernaut cannot fly.
So he can't entirely prevent BFR of this sort.

Thing WILL get BFRs in whole or in part, if he's fighting his best.

It's what he does.

At least in New York City.

It's only a matter of how often that will out against whatever it is slower, ground-bound Juggernaut tries to do in return.

THAT part is up for debate.

riv6672

Good tp see Ben wasnt steamrolled by the Juggernsut skewed opinion train. Some really great references cited here; saving a bunch.

KingD19

Juggernaut surprised Beast with his speed.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Unique/Speed/SpeedFeatAA16.jpg

Juggernaut utilizing magical energy orbs.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Unique/Misc/GlobulesofSHEERENERGYUXM46.jpg

Using a spell to shrink Nightmare.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Unique/Misc/DrStrange-18213.jpg

His unstoppability enchantment prevents him from sinking in water.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Unique/Misc/StaysAfloatAA16.jpg

This fight will be a lot more difficult for thing if we're using Classic Juggernaut with all his feats. Not only will it be impossible to get past his force field, him trying to dig up the ground means he'll be vulnerable to Cain punching him in the back or the back of the head. And this is ignoring the magic that Cain has displayed.

Flyattractor

Originally posted by KingD19

Juggernaut utilizing magical energy orbs.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Unique/Misc/GlobulesofSHEERENERGYUXM46.jpg

Admit it. This is your FAV part.

riv6672

^lol@fly

The key point in this debate, as it pertains to Ben and Cain, is that no one is really down playing Cain or his abilities.
Ben on the other hand was being low balled until cooler heads prevailed.

Flyattractor

^true dat.

juggerman

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This is simply not so.

Even with his forcefield on Jug has to obey the laws of gravity, and it doesn't take anyone beyond Spider-Man level to rip up the street somebody's standing on.

You show me where Juggernaut, no matter HOW "Classic" and forcefielded, has ever been able to resist the ground beneath him being moved or destroyed.

Prove to me even conceptually, beyond your screenname, why you even think he SHOULD be able to.

It's something that takes less than a second to accomplish, and, even back in the 60s and 70s Juggernaut had no answer for this.

The simple fact of the matter is, Juggernaut is not super-speedy in comparison to Thing, and Juggernaut cannot fly.
So he can't entirely prevent BFR of this sort.

Thing WILL get BFRs in whole or in part, if he's fighting his best.

It's what he does.

At least in New York City.

It's only a matter of how often that will out against whatever it is slower, ground-bound Juggernaut tries to do in return.

THAT part is up for debate.

And as Ben is ripping up the street what is Juggernaut doing exactly?

What's stopping him from just stomping his foot and crumbling any "street" Thing is trying to lift?

What's stopping him from just running at his full speed and slamming into Ben before he has a chance to lift said street?

What's stopping him from using any of his more exotic power?

In your scenario it seems as if Ben is using every single thing he can to win while Juggernaut is just standing around scratching his butt.

riv6672

And in yours it seems that well, no one can stop the juggernaut.

Obviously these scenarios are based one one opponent's strategy working.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by juggerman

What's stopping him from using any of his more exotic power?

King was trying to make the point earlier, that, according to KMC rules, people should be fighting in character. If Thing doesn't make it a habit to use environmental resources and sound tactics in a fight, if in fact he really is just a brawler in the type of scenario proposed here, then one showing shouldn't really be given a lot of weight.

There's a fair amount of merit to that, which is why I steered King toward ODG's Revamped Hulk Respect Thread. There you'll find plenty of instances of Thing fighting a VERY close stand-in for Juggernaut, with the exceptions that Hulk, though less durable, is faster than Juggernaut, and generally held to be stronger as well. And using intelligent NON-brawling tactics time after time after time.
They get physical, of course, there's no way you can be the Thing, a character with no innate weapons, and not be physical to some extent.
But reading practically any of the 20 or more encounters Hulk has had with Thing over the span of decades proves Thing is a thinking fighter.

With your "Juggernaut, Master of Magic" entry though ...?
What you're talking about here is something that, if ever
encountered before, is something so remote and one-shot (Juggernaut spell-casting) that even the man that posted it doesn't seem to know the magazine it appeared in and did not give the reference information.

It would scarcely matter if he could. It would be about as in-character and likely to occur in our mythical fight scenario here as Hulk flying against Juggernaut.
Which, if we go back to the early days, COULD theoretically have happened, and for about 3 issues of comics, Marvel seems to have toyed with the idea, as the writer of the following blog points out:

http://west3man.blogspot.com/2009/03/hulk-fly.html

Not happening.

If you want me to make you happy and say "Well, if he DID use magic like that, and have skill in using said magic, and could shrink Thing at will or turn him into a cabbage or something with a mere wave of both hands, he'd perfect Thing 10 out of 10 times"?

Well, here, let me go on and say that for you:

"Wow, if Juggernaut DID use magic like that, and have skill in using said magic, and could shrink Thing at will or turn him into a cabbage or something with a mere wave of both hands, he'd perfect Thing 10 out of 10 times!
10 out of 10! Juggernaut is awesome!"

And he IS awesome.

But he's not, in character, going by KMC's guidelines, a spell-casting magic user.
Anymore than Hulk is a character that flies.

I should make clear: Although I really DO think Juggernaut would find himself continually relocated from point A to point B in a fight with Grimm, that doesn't mean I think he's less likely to be the winner than Ben.
Fact, I'd give Jug the majority, not an even 5/5 split.

The exact percentages are going to depend on how far Thing has proven, on average, to hurl a weight of about 1500 pounds (the weight of Juggernaut plus a small section of whatever material he happens to be standing on).
Thing from the eras where he's moving around building sized objects and similar sized opponents BFRs Jug. Period.

How long? Well, THAT we can debate ...

Originally posted by juggerman
And as Ben is ripping up the street what is Juggernaut doing exactly?

What's stopping him from just stomping his foot and crumbling any "street" Thing is trying to lift?

What's stopping him from just running at his full speed and slamming into Ben before he has a chance to lift said street?

Either you're not thinking this through, or you have never in your life seen comic characters in Ben's weight class perform this maneuver.

It's not some all-day construction project for a 50+ tonner.
It takes a literal second. Juggernaut can be doing anything he wants to be.
He's still going to be scooped up and tossed.
You HAVE to prove Jug can resist gravity itself before you can stop this maneuver. Juggernaut stomping his feet is not going to do it.
Juggernaut stomping his feat and crumbling the street, in fact, is likely to aid Thing. If the ground beneath Juggernaut's feet crumples, where is Jug going to go? The sewers down below are about the only place left him.
Face it -- unless you go the unlikely magic route, Juggernaut, being a ground-based character, has no true defense against the shovel and toss.

Wei Phoenix

Originally posted by riv6672
He could hit Juggernaut from behind, with s truck or other large improvised weapon like Fly suggested, knocking him out of the area, using his own momentum against him.

Or a simple taunt and dodge and Juggernaut hoes in a manhole, in the rover, etc. If Juggernaut is taking even one step then that truck won't move him at all. Matter of fact I think Rogue ran a speeding 18 wheeler into him once and he didn't budge.

riv6672

And thats great, but this is hardly the only tactic that could or would be used by Ben.
My one off comment is not a deciding factor much as i and certainly you, might want it to be.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
If Juggernaut is taking even one step then that truck won't move him at all. Matter of fact I think Rogue ran a speeding 18 wheeler into him once and he didn't budge.

That was Spider-Man.

Scroll down to the middle of the following page and you can see the images.

You can't really tell if Jug moved or not, though.
Because the 18 wheeler was a gasoline truck.

So Juggernaut was engulfed in an explosion an instant later.

http://junkfoodforthought-krisshaw.blogspot.com/2013/10/review-spider-man-nothing-can-stop.html

If you scroll roughly to the middle of this page, which follows Juggernaut stepping on a fire hydrant and dousing the flames from that explosion, you can see the conclusion of the first Spider-Man/Juggernaut battle and Jug's vulnerability to ground treachery.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/juggernaut-vs-itachispiderman-miroku-captain-ginyu-421485/

riv6672

Its very telling that of all the characters listed in the OP this has broken down to Juggernaut/Ben.
He IS the character that could/would get the win here.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by riv6672
Its very telling that of all the characters listed in the OP this has broken down to Juggernaut/Ben.
He IS the character that could/would get the win here.

Well, to be honest, most of the people on this list I did not bother with because I don't know very much about them. Of the ones I DO know something about, it is actually Crusher Creel, better known as the Absorbing Man, who'd be my top choice for taking down Juggernaut, not Ben.

In fact, given his battles against Thor, where he absorbed part of his surroundings and became giant, and apparently not only absorbed the strength of Thor, but at one point the properties of Mjolnir itself,
I'd say Absorbing Man beats Juggernaut even if Juggernaut COULD cast magic spells.

(Note, for instance, that Creel's ability to gain mass from his surroundings negates the shrinking spell we saw, unless Jug has the power to shrink the entire planet Earth down to nothing.)

bluewaterrider

Actually, now that I come to it again, the following, from least to most difficult for Juggernaut to clear from OP's list (at least as I understand them), is as follows:

1. Colossus

2. Sasquatch

3. Rulk

4. Classic Hercules

5. Classic Abomination

6. Flint Marko*

7. (Semi-Classic) Thing

8. Movie Sandman*
9. Loebforce Rulk

10. Crusher Creel

riv6672

I knew if i posted that opinion someone'd contradict it. smile

bluewaterrider

I suppose I should explain the rationale behind my ranking:

1. Colossus -- least difficult opponent. probably tougher than Sasquatch, the #2 on this list in terms of actual physical durability but nothing suggests he'd fare better or even as well. only encounter I know of outside of the X-Men's standard engagement is a one-on-one bar fight these two had when Marko was in his civvies. Pete got wasted there. He'd probably get wasted here.
Unless he gets his Cytorrak power-up for this thread, but I don't think the OP intended Pete to have that.

2. Sasquatch -- relative unknown. seen him described as stronger than Thing, so, de facto, he'd probably be stronger than Colossus. Might have a slightly easier time of it than Pete would, for, despite his reputation, Juggernaut is actually fairly sparing of people he doesn't know. He'd go less hard on this guy than Colossus, whom he KNOWS can take some punishment

3. Rulk -- somehow, this guy seems excessively depowered since his last defeat at the true Hulk's hands. Presumably stronger than Colossus, Thing, or Sasquatch by virtue of proving stronger than Savage Hulk on debut, though part of that was later revealed to be him gaining strength from absorbing opponent energies. Placed higher than Colossus or Sasquatch not only for strength and presumed healing factor, but also for acknowledgement of his savvy in battle.
Rulk IS a tactician, arguably better than Ben. Placed lower than Ben because he DOESN'T seem to have Ben's indomitable will to win or Ben's extensive experience in grappling physically with stronger opponents.

4. Classic Hercules -- I saw this guy crush Thunderball's wrecking ball.
I've seen him match Classic Thor, who actually displayed strength enough to crush a TANK down into a replacement hammer for Mjolnir. Guy is strong ... very strong ...

5. Classic Abomination -- Hulk is, of course, regarded as the strongest of Marvel's classic hero characters. Superior to Thing, Sasquatch, Hercules, and even Thor. But this guy ... ? Even stronger. If memory serves, TWICE the deus ex machina strength of Savage Hulk. At least base Savage Hulk.
Toughest pure brick on this list as a result.
As we all know, however, Juggernaut has a forcefield.
Unknown if Jug can hurt this guy. Abomination was elite level physical power back in the day. But it takes more than pure strength and durability to defeat Jug's "tank" empowerment; this would be a stalemate at best.
BFR would be more effective if tried by A-bomb than almost anyone else.
Don't think he has history or character propensity TO try that, though.

6. Flint Marko* -- Asterisked because I'm not sure what powers the OP thinks he possesses now. Someone told me he has control over sandmass outside his own, and perhaps even various other materials. Good chance if he can control massive amounts of construction or refinery materials for BFR.

7. (Semi-Classic) Thing -- Extensive history fighting an opponent who is STRONGER than Juggernaut (Hulk). And sometimes coming out on top. Extensive use of tactics and environmental resources including habitual battlefield removal. IN New York City. Good knowledge of the land and water of the area. Inventive, daring, willful. To be sure, Juggernaut still has the advantage here. But not nearly by as much as people think.
Check out ODG's "Hulk Revamped Respect thread" to see fight versatility from this supposed "brawler" that might surprise you.

8. Movie Sandman* -- This guy had command of BUILDING sized masses of sand, earth, and other material. Which has stopped Juggernaut for periods of weeks to MONTHS before. If the OP has in mind a Sandman like the one we get at the end of Spider-Man 3, this fight is Marko's to lose.

9. Loebforce Rulk -- He absorbed gamma radiation from Hulk. He absorbed sound energy from Klaw. He absorbed heat energy from a reactor. He absorbed cosmic energy from the Surfer. He apparently absorbed MAGIC energy from Thor, and used it to beat Thor from Earth to the Moon.
There doesn't seem to have been any form of energy Rulk could NOT absorb and get stronger from under the pen of Jeph Loeb. I could seriously see Loebforce Rulk gaining power from Juggernaut a la Rogue or Absorbing Man himself and coming out on top. This was like the Bugs Bunny of bricks.

10. Crusher Creel -- As alluded to before, this guy handled the full range of Thor's abilities, Thor's FULL abilities if memory serves, not merely the hammer and fist we normally see when Thor fights, say, Hulk or Hercules.

Probably the only character who could handle Juggernaut even if energy globules, shrinking casts and other spells WERE employed. If Crusher Creel with his full Absorbing Man powers is kept at the #3 spot on our original thread list, that's as far as Cain gets.

riv6672

Great read. thumb up

krisblaze

Blue brings up a very interesting point actually about Ben tossing Juggernaut

I always thought it was weird that when (in example) the x-men fought WWH Hellion didn't just lift a piece of the ground beneath him and toss him into the air, or when the x-men fought Juggernaut that Jean didn't just use his momentum and send him flying into the next state...

riv6672

Bad writing is my knee jerk answer, but really, sometimes characters just dont fight at their best.

krisblaze

Originally posted by riv6672
Bad writing is my knee jerk answer, but really, sometimes characters just dont fight at their best.
yeah it's obviously a lame cop-out, but it just seems like such an incredible tactic. Even for just throwing someone off balance stick out tongue

Supermex

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I suppose I should explain the rationale behind my ranking:

1. Colossus -- least difficult opponent. probably tougher than Sasquatch, the #2 on this list in terms of actual physical durability but nothing suggests he'd fare better or even as well. only encounter I know of outside of the X-Men's standard engagement is a one-on-one bar fight these two had when Marko was in his civvies. Pete got wasted there. He'd probably get wasted here.
Unless he gets his Cytorrak power-up for this thread, but I don't think the OP intended Pete to have that.

2. Sasquatch -- relative unknown. seen him described as stronger than Thing, so, de facto, he'd probably be stronger than Colossus. Might have a slightly easier time of it than Pete would, for, despite his reputation, Juggernaut is actually fairly sparing of people he doesn't know. He'd go less hard on this guy than Colossus, whom he KNOWS can take some punishment

3. Rulk -- somehow, this guy seems excessively depowered since his last defeat at the true Hulk's hands. Presumably stronger than Colossus, Thing, or Sasquatch by virtue of proving stronger than Savage Hulk on debut, though part of that was later revealed to be him gaining strength from absorbing opponent energies. Placed higher than Colossus or Sasquatch not only for strength and presumed healing factor, but also for acknowledgement of his savvy in battle.
Rulk IS a tactician, arguably better than Ben. Placed lower than Ben because he DOESN'T seem to have Ben's indomitable will to win or Ben's extensive experience in grappling physically with stronger opponents.

4. Classic Hercules -- I saw this guy crush Thunderball's wrecking ball.
I've seen him match Classic Thor, who actually displayed strength enough to crush a TANK down into a replacement hammer for Mjolnir. Guy is strong ... very strong ...

5. Classic Abomination -- Hulk is, of course, regarded as the strongest of Marvel's classic hero characters. Superior to Thing, Sasquatch, Hercules, and even Thor. But this guy ... ? Even stronger. If memory serves, TWICE the deus ex machina strength of Savage Hulk. At least base Savage Hulk.
Toughest pure brick on this list as a result.
As we all know, however, Juggernaut has a forcefield.
Unknown if Jug can hurt this guy. Abomination was elite level physical power back in the day. But it takes more than pure strength and durability to defeat Jug's "tank" empowerment; this would be a stalemate at best.
BFR would be more effective if tried by A-bomb than almost anyone else.
Don't think he has history or character propensity TO try that, though.

6. Flint Marko* -- Asterisked because I'm not sure what powers the OP thinks he possesses now. Someone told me he has control over sandmass outside his own, and perhaps even various other materials. Good chance if he can control massive amounts of construction or refinery materials for BFR.

7. (Semi-Classic) Thing -- Extensive history fighting an opponent who is STRONGER than Juggernaut (Hulk). And sometimes coming out on top. Extensive use of tactics and environmental resources including habitual battlefield removal. IN New York City. Good knowledge of the land and water of the area. Inventive, daring, willful. To be sure, Juggernaut still has the advantage here. But not nearly by as much as people think.
Check out ODG's "Hulk Revamped Respect thread" to see fight versatility from this supposed "brawler" that might surprise you.

8. Movie Sandman* -- This guy had command of BUILDING sized masses of sand, earth, and other material. Which has stopped Juggernaut for periods of weeks to MONTHS before. If the OP has in mind a Sandman like the one we get at the end of Spider-Man 3, this fight is Marko's to lose.

9. Loebforce Rulk -- He absorbed gamma radiation from Hulk. He absorbed sound energy from Klaw. He absorbed heat energy from a reactor. He absorbed cosmic energy from the Surfer. He apparently absorbed MAGIC energy from Thor, and used it to beat Thor from Earth to the Moon.
There doesn't seem to have been any form of energy Rulk could NOT absorb and get stronger from under the pen of Jeph Loeb. I could seriously see Loebforce Rulk gaining power from Juggernaut a la Rogue or Absorbing Man himself and coming out on top. This was like the Bugs Bunny of bricks.

10. Crusher Creel -- As alluded to before, this guy handled the full range of Thor's abilities, Thor's FULL abilities if memory serves, not merely the hammer and fist we normally see when Thor fights, say, Hulk or Hercules.

Probably the only character who could handle Juggernaut even if energy globules, shrinking casts and other spells WERE employed. If Crusher Creel with his full Absorbing Man powers is kept at the #3 spot on our original thread list, that's as far as Cain gets.

Nice breakdown