Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The Banite Sith line for the first time in the history of the Sith had created the ultimate Sith in Palpatine. But eons after his death and with his shadowing looming large over future generations, what would a future Sith lord have to accomplish in order to surpass him? Would it take a future Sith order as much time as it did for the Banite line, to work in tandem to create an order that would surpass the Grand Plan? Could one ever truly be more naturally powerful than Darth Sidious, or would an individual have to throw himself into every facet of the Darkside fully in order to accomplish that?

Both the jedi and the sith order could evolve into a higher existence perhaps like the celestials even.

They've discovered individual existence after death. Unusually powerful jedis like Luke started to show up and they even handled destructive forces like the Vong and Abeloth. After this point, the only logical outcome would be the occurrence of a jedi culture that has a higher understanding of the force and of course more powerful individuals with it which would mean more powerful sith lords too.

Yes.

No, because Lucas said so.

joking. Were there to be, though, I'd assume it would be connected to the Skywalker lineage.

Or the Font of Power...


Plagueis probably could've if he hadn't been killed.

Originally posted by carthage
The Banite Sith line for the first time in the history of the Sith had created the ultimate Sith in Palpatine.
History disagrees with you.

Emperor Vitiate is the first example of ultimate Sith or dark side practitioner outside entities/deities.

Originally posted by carthage
But eons after his death and with his shadowing looming large over future generations, what would a future Sith lord have to accomplish in order to surpass him? Would it take a future Sith order as much time as it did for the Banite line, to work in tandem to create an order that would surpass the Grand Plan?
Darth Krayt managed to duplicate the Grand Plan.

Didn't he?

Originally posted by carthage
Could one ever truly be more naturally powerful than Darth Sidious, or would an individual have to throw himself into every facet of the Darkside fully in order to accomplish that?
It is possible to surpass Darth Sidious in power with one of the following methods or talent pool:-

1. Sith sorcery
2. Midi-chlorian manipulation
3. Natural strength in the Force like that of Anakin Skywalker or very close

Bane was the ultimate Sith, not Sidious or Vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
History disagrees with you.

Emperor Vitiate is the first example of ultimate Sith or dark side practitioner outside entities/deities.

Wrong on so many levels.

And yes, Palpatine can be surpassed, but not within a thousand years of his death unless the relics he used to further his knowledge and power remain, he had years of Sith sorcery to fall back on and learn, any new sith in the years after his death could not come close.

When talking about the Sith in the years after his death, Caedus came somewhat close to his power level.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane was the ultimate Sith, not Sidious or Vitiate.

Nah, the ultimate sith can't be a baldy.

I truly believe that no force wielder has limites, they only become as powerful as dedicated they are to becoming powerful and if they are willing to go to further lengths

True some have it easier than others based on their midicolorian count but that is just giving them a leg up not making them more powerful overall. No Force Wielder ever reached their full potential because their potential was unlimited.

Originally posted by Sinious
Nah, the ultimate sith can't be a baldy.

God of the Sith, bro.

God of the Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
BaneRevan was the ultimate Sith, not Sidious or Vitiate.
Darth Bane only survived because of Revan, bruh. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/1390042426.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
God of the Sith, bro.

God of the Sith.

Every sith lord is technically a Sith'ari

Originally posted by WildBantha88
I truly believe that no force wielder has limites, they only become as powerful as dedicated they are to becoming powerful and if they are willing to go to further lengths


So you're a Jensaaraian.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/giphymedia/media/abLoBQ4MPFJ5K/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Plagueis probably could've if he hadn't been killed.


Plagueis had over 100 years on Sidious, and Sidious was already his peer by the time of Plagueis's death, so I highly doubt it.

As for the thread, it's possible, but I think it would be inappropriate, as Sidious is the ultimate villain of SW, and his connection to the dark side was deeper than any sith before or after him. It's almost as if he achieved a complete oneness with the dark side (as was suggested in Plagueis), which is why he was naturally more powerful than sith lords like Vitiate or Plagueis, despite not living nearly as long as either of them. He surpassed them in power due to his sheer potency in the dark side, his unique connection to it, and command of it. Although the ROTS novel is filled with hyperbole, it was made clear that Sidious was the darkest center of the dark sider, draining light throughout the galaxy, which is why his very death diffused the dark side, restoring balance to the force. Basically the force itself viewed Sidious as the greater threat than any sith before or after him, which is why Anakin's creation and destiny was to kill him.

This, along with his feats, is why I place Sidious far beyond even Vitiate: his natural potency and unity/unique connection with the dark side. It's not that I'm unwilling to accept Palpatine as having superiors, which I do such as The Son and Abeloth (although I think it's stupid, but I accept it nonetheless). It's not that I'm underestimating Vitiate's power with the force, I just don't see anything to suggest that he approaches Sidious's sheer natural potency with the dark side.

With the new canon, if they do create a superior villain, I would have no choice but to accept it, but, IMO, it would be just as stupid as creating another chosen one.

I know The Son is a character in the new canon, but I think it was the EU that confirmed the Mortis Family's existence, as the Mortis trilogy really didn't confirm them as being actual beings from what I recall; they seemed to be more like realistic illusions created by the force, as even the son implied to a captured Ahsoka that everything that was taking place on the planet was all in her mind. IIRC, the spirit of Qui Gon implied the same thing to Anakin before going to confront the son in an area that was the most potent with the dark side on the planet (which was similar to what Yoda told Luke before entering the cave). To me, it seemed like the force was trying to warn Anakin the dangers of using the dark side, which is why The father, towards the end of the series, admitted that trying to use and tame the dark side within his son was a mistake, because in doing so, his son was slowly consumed by it, which is what eventually happened to Anakin: the more he embraced the dark side, the more he was consumed by it, which is why he eventually became a slave to it (Darth Sidious).

lol i thought you quit. sad face

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Plagueis had over 100 years on Sidious, and Sidious was already his peer by the time of Plagueis's death, so I highly doubt it.

As for the thread, it's possible, but I think it would be inappropriate, as Sidious is the ultimate villain of SW, and his connection to the dark side was deeper than any sith before or after him. It's almost as if he achieved a complete oneness with the dark side (as was suggested in Plagueis), which is why he was naturally more powerful than sith lords like Vitiate or Plagueis, despite not living nearly as long as either of them. He surpassed them in power due to his sheer potency in the dark side, his unique connection to it, and command of it. Although the ROTS novel is filled with hyperbole, it was made clear that Sidious was the darkest center of the dark sider, draining light throughout the galaxy, which is why his very death diffused the dark side, restoring balance to the force. Basically the force itself viewed Sidious as the greater threat than any sith before or after him, which is why Anakin's creation and destiny was to kill him.

This, along with his feats, is why I place Sidious far beyond even Vitiate: his natural potency and unity/unique connection with the dark side. It's not that I'm unwilling to accept Palpatine as having superiors, which I do such as The Son and Abeloth (although I think it's stupid, but I accept it nonetheless). It's not that I'm underestimating Vitiate's power with the force, I just don't see anything to suggest that he approaches Sidious's sheer natural potency with the dark side.

Would you apply this reasoning to Malgus?

In case you haven't noticed, Malgus isn't Sidious so no.

But Malgus achieved oneness with the darkside in a similar manner to how S66 is describing Sidious. In fact, Sidious himself said that Malgus had submitted utterly to the darkside.

Originally posted by psmith81992
In case you haven't noticed, Malgus isn't Sidious so no.


You're finally catching on.


@Neph, no he didn't. Not even close.

Right..... except for him achieving something really, really like it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Right..... except for him achieving something really, really like it.


Aside from some vague quotes that said Malgus submitted himself to the dark side and achieved oneness, explain how it compares to the level of oneness Palpatine achieved with it and the effect he had on the force.

How about you break my post down point by point, and detail how Malgus connection and command over the dark side matched Palpatine's. There are a bunch of sith who have similar quotes to Malgus's, but none of them had the effect on the force as Palpatine did, and none of them were perceived by the force itself as being nearly as threatening as Palpatine was. Palpatine's potency with the dark side was unmatched, hence why his death brought balance to the force.

Sorry this bothers you.

You mean the balance of him and Vader vs. Luke and Ben? Yea, unmatched dark side right there.

Originally posted by psmith81992
You mean the balance of him and Vader vs. Luke and Ben? Yea, unmatched dark side right there.


Yeah, that's exactly what I meant.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Aside from some vague quotes that said Malgus submitted himself to the dark side and achieved oneness, explain how it compares to the level of oneness Palpatine achieved with it and the effect he had on the force.

How about you break my post down point by point, and detail how Malgus connection and command over the dark side matched Palpatine's. There are a bunch of sith who have similar quotes to Malgus's, but none of them had the effect on the force as Palpatine did, and none of them were perceived by the force itself as being nearly as threatening as Palpatine was. Palpatine's potency with the dark side was unmatched, hence why his death brought balance to the force.

Sorry this bothers you.

"Explain how Malgus achieving oneness compares to Palpatine achieving oneness durrrrr." That's you. That's how dumb you sound.

You said Plagueis was the one who theorised that Sidious had achieved oneness. Malgus said he felt as if he'd achieved oneness. That's easily comparable. Also waaah? I don't remember other Sith saying the same thing that Malgus did? Palpatine doing all that stuff was because of the ritual he did to unbalance the Force, hence why his death balanced it again.

Lol, it doesn't. Though clearly me saying Malgus is in any way comparable to Sidious bothers you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant.

You're right my mistake. I forgot Obiwan died, so it was just Luke then.

Didn't the Plagueis novel invalidate the "Sidious is speshul" argument though? After all, the Force created Anakin to bring balance chiefly as a result of Plagueis' actions, not Sidious' actions. It was Plagueis who imposed his will on the midichlorians, Plagueis who attempted to created a human through asexual means, and Plagueis was stronger than Sidious when the two of them "waged etheric war" and unbalanced the Force through their ritual.

In light of all this, Sidious was nothing special Force-wise. He just benefited from being born at exactly the right time.

As for the OP, yes, he could be surpassed. As the ultimate champion of the Dark Side and Luke Skywalker's counterpart and ally against Abeloth, Krayt surpassed him. That's what that whole novel was all about.

Not at all. Palpatine still was an incredibly powerful force users and was certainly something "special Force-wise". And he is just as responsible as Plagueis for unbalancing the force.

Regardless, he could be surpassed. He says as much in RotS.

I don't think there was anything definitive about Anakin's birth being specifically designed to combat Plagueis or Sidious.. It was hinted at but nothing more..

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Explain how Malgus achieving oneness compares to Palpatine achieving oneness durrrrr." That's you. That's how dumb you sound. Regardless, I don't think we are talking about the same oneness. Palpatine was regarded as the most powerful expression of the dark side (DE endnotes)

You said Plagueis was the one who theorised that Sidious had achieved oneness. Malgus said he felt as if he'd achieved oneness. That's easily comparable. Also waaah? I don't remember other Sith saying the same thing that Malgus did? Palpatine doing all that stuff was because of the ritual he did to unbalance the Force, hence why his death balanced it again.

Lol, it doesn't. Though clearly me saying Malgus is in any way comparable to Sidious bothers you.


Yeah, unless you think that everyone who achieves oneness with the force are all equal, in which case Palpatine was a clear superior to a oneness with the force Marek. BTW, I don't think we are referring to the same state of oneness. No other sith held the same amount of control over the dark side as a whole as Sidious did.

I said "in Plaguies." Sorry for assuming you use your brain. Anyone with common sense would know I was talking about the novel and not Plagueis himself, especially since Plagueis was dead at the time.

It doesn't bother me, because what Malgus could do by entering a state of oneness (reaching his full potency), Savage could do even better just by getting angry. Savage is someone Palpatine can ragdoll while playing, but yeah Malgus compares.

The ritual shoved the force in favor of the dark side, which Palpatine asserted total control over, which is why even after Plagueis's death, Palpatine was still actively blunting out jedi sensitivity and draining the light throughout the dark side, and was stated as being the only sith to spread his his darkness throughout the galaxy. And considering that Palpatine's death was the only thing that brought the force back into balance, it had more to do than the ritual, and a lot to do with his command over the dark side.

@missmith, you forgot Yoda. Added to the other surviving jedi, the light side actually had more.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I don't think there was anything definitive about Anakin's birth being specifically designed to combat Plagueis or Sidious.. It was hinted at but nothing more..


Except for The New Essential Guide to Characters confirming that Anakin fulfilled his destiny by destroying Sidious, which restored balance.

Are you new to SW? This has been established long ago.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, unless you think that everyone who achieves oneness with the force are all equal, in which case Palpatine was a clear superior to a oneness with the force Marek.

I said "in Plaguies." Sorry for assuming you use your brain. Anyone with common sense would know I was talking about the novel and not Plagueis himself, especially since Plagueis was dead at the time.

It doesn't bother me, because what Malgus could do by entering a state of oneness (reaching his full potency), Savage could do even better just by getting angry. Savage is someone Palpatine can ragdoll while playing, but yeah Malgus compares.

The ritual shoved the force in favor of the dark side, which Palpatine asserted total control over, which is why even after Plagueis's death, Palpatine was still actively blunting out jedi sensitivity and draining the light throughout the dark side, and was stated as being the only sith to spread his darkness throughout the galaxy. And considering that Palpatine's death was the only thing that brought the force back into balance, it had more to do than the ritual, and a lot to do with his command over the dark side.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119363/3831627-weezay.jpg

Is it theoretically possible in the context of the lore? Hell yes!

Did it ever happen, and is it likely to ever happen? Nope.

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119363/3831627-weezay.jpg


As always, I state facts about Palpatine's superiority over your favorite characters, you attempt to challenge me, and then play it off as if you're trolling when you realize you're no match. (lol)

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Except for The New Essential Guide to Characters confirming that Anakin fulfilled his destiny by destroying Sidious, which restored balance.

Are you new to SW? This has been established long ago.

Please post the scan. And Yoda was dead when Anakin "restored balance".


Is this how you rationalize your failures everytime someone kicks your ass? LOL

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Is it theoretically possible in the context of the lore? Hell yes!

Did it ever happen, and is it likely to ever happen? Nope.


It may happen. If it does, I would find it being just as stupid as creating another chosen one.

But as of now, there is only one chosen one with unmatched potential (Anakin), and one sith lord who is unmatched in power (Sidious).

Sidious is probably, what, the 6th most powerful SW character...?

Of course, taking Luke and the Ones into account as the top 5.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As always, I state facts about Palpatine's superiority over your favorite characters, you attempt to challenge me, and then play it off as if you're trolling when you realize you're no match. (lol)

How did I challenge you exactly? I simply asked if you'd apply the same reasoning to Malgus as you do to Sidious, since he achieved a level of oneness with the darkside too. It's not as if I said Malgus > Sidious, I was merely inquiring if you'd give him similar props as you give Palps. I'm not always challenging you, you know. Sometimes I'm simply making conversation.

I mean, I will reply if you're going to be a dick about this. Buuut I wasn't intending for this to become an argument.

Lol. Sidious always fails with his patented "post until everyone else stops posting" method.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Please post the scan. And Yoda was dead when Anakin "restored balance".


No wonder why you couldn't make it through law school: You can't even follow you're own logic.


Originally posted by psmith81992
Is this how you rationalize your failures everytime someone kicks your ass? LOL


Everyone has been kicking Neph's ass lately, even his girlfriend Ant, who isn't even that intelligent. Perhaps above you, but not that bright.

I don't have an ass, I'm 100% hip.

V Heh, that was actually a good comeback.

I couldn't make it through law school because I was too busy racking up 6 figure payouts. Meanwhile, you can't seem to make it through a star wars forum without embarrassing yourself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How did I challenge you exactly? I simply asked if you'd apply the same reasoning to Malgus as you do to Sidious, since he achieved a level of oneness with the darkside too. It's not as if I said Malgus > Sidious, I was merely inquiring if you'd give him similar props as you give Palps. I'm not always challenging you, you know. Sometimes I'm simply making conversation.

I mean, I will reply if you're going to be a dick about this. Buuut I wasn't intending for this to become an argument.


You asked if I apply the same reasoning for Malgus, I said no and explained the difference, which was a vast difference, and then you started trolling as always.

If you read my post in the first place, you'd know why I wouldn't apply the same reasoning. You're the one who started being a dick. Don't cry when someone comes back harder, Neph.

Basically you do the same thing Carthage does to you, except Carthage won't back down from a debate. He may throw in trollish remarks, but he doesn't back down. The only difference is you're the only one who cries when it's done to you.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I couldn't make it through law school because I was too busy racking up 6 figure payouts. Meanwhile, you can't seem to make it through a star wars forum without embarrassing yourself.


If you even attended law school. lol

You can't even follow your own logic. Just stop, miss.

Psmith is slaughtering S66 so bad in this.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
lol i thought you quit. sad face
We should start a support group for this...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Psmith is slaughtering S66 so bad in this.

Everybody knows this. Someone who can't follow simple logic has the balls to say someone else can't follow logic. VERY amusing.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
We should start a support group for this...

Says the guy that worships a bald 40 year old man that wears makeup

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Sidious is probably, what, the 6th most powerful SW character...?

Of course, taking Luke and the Ones into account as the top 5.


I agree with this, even though I don't like the idea of the Mortis Family as being real characters, and the fact that I never liked Luke's character, but I could easily admit when Palpatine has equals or superiors. If you read my post, you'd know this.

Fact is, he is solidly above Vitiate in just about every area concerning combat and the threat he had on the force, which bothers Neph.

You're the one who wrote a big rant about why Sidious > Vitiate, not me. You're obviously the one bothered here.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You asked if I apply the same reasoning for Malgus, I said no and explained the difference, which was a vast difference, and then you started trolling as always.

If you read my thread in the first place, you'd know why I wouldn't apply the same reasoning. You're the one who started being a dick. Don't cry when someone comes back harder, Neph.

Basically you do the same thing Carthage does to you, except Carthage won't back down from a debate. He may throw in trollish remarks, but he doesn't back down. The only difference is you're the only one who cries when it's done to you.

Dude, there was no vast difference. You haven't even established anything indicating Sidious achieved a oneness with the darkside. Nor did you explain any actual difference, you just said Sidious is betterer than Malgus and that Malgus never achieved oneness despite him saying he did and him receiving an enormous boost from it.

Your thread? You mean your post, carthage made this thread. And I hardly think making portal references at you is being a dick. Your massively condescending tone was way ruder than my obviously playful joke.

I'm starting to think that Carthage really is your son, you seem really offended by everyone spurning him. Get over it. Though if theres no difference between us then maybe you should throw me the same love you do him.

The hurt in my heart getting spurned by such luminaries as Sinious, Dmb, and Neph.

Lmao

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're the one who wrote a big rant about why Sidious > Vitiate, not me. You're obviously the one bothered here.



Dude, there was no vast difference. You haven't even established anything indicating Sidious achieved a oneness with the darkside. Nor did you explain any actual difference, you just said Sidious is betterer than Malgus and that Malgus never achieved oneness despite him saying he did and him receiving an enormous boost from it.

Your thread? You mean your post, carthage made this thread. And I hardly think making portal references at you is being a dick. Your massively condescending tone was way ruder than my obviously playful joke.

I'm starting to think that Carthage really is your son, you seem really offended by everyone spurning him. Get over it. Though if theres no difference between us then maybe you should throw me the same love you do him.


Again, what am I bothered about? You're inability to prove Vitiate comes close to Sidious? I'm actually glad you can't. My post wasn't even directed at you. I was just explaining why I view Sidious as being vastly superior to Vitiate, and that living long has nothing to do with Sidious being solidly above him, considering his natural potency with the dark side, which I explained in great detail. You took it upon yourself to respond to a post that wasn't directed at you, and then got mad, and then accused me of being a dick after insulting me. Basically, Neph, you're a cry baby.

I did explain a difference. Go back over my posts if you're that interested.

Yes, I meant post. I went over and edited my posts.

Me being "condescending" isn't nearly as bad as asking stupid questions that you should know the answer to if you read my post. If you didn't, then you have absolutely no business replying to it or asking questions about it. No Malgus in way compares to Sidious or the command Sidious has over the dark side, no sith has. That's a fact, but, by all means, carry on complaining about it.

I would throw you the same love I do Carthage if you'd stop crying over the same exact things you're guilty of, and man up and debate instead of shying off and pretending to troll after getting your ass handed to. If I got offended and felt Sidious position as being the ultimate sith, I wouldn't be as generous as I am. I don't throw up Sidious speed do I? No, because I don't feel I need to. Although if I did, you'd be unable to refute it. And if you think you can, we could give it a shot. Choice is yours.

You're bothered because you just typed a 304 word essay on why you weren't bothered.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, what am I bothered about? You're inability to prove Vitiate comes close to Sidious? I'm actually glad you can't. My post wasn't even directed at you. I was just explaining why I view Sidious as being vastly superior to Vitiate, and that living long has nothing to do with Sidious being solidly above him, considering his natural potency with the dark side, which I explained in great detail. You took it upon yourself to respond to a post that wasn't directed at you, and then got mad, and then accused me of being a dick after insulting me. Basically, Neph, you're a cry baby.

I did explain a difference. Go back over my posts if you're that interested.

Yes, I meant post. I went over and edited my posts.

Me being "condescending" isn't nearly as bad as asking stupid questions that you should know the answer to if you read my post. If you didn't, then you have absolutely no business replying to it or asking questions about it. No Malgus in way compares to Sidious or the command Sidious has over the dark side, no sith has. That's a fact, but, by all means, carry on complaining about it.

I would throw you the same love I do Carthage if you'd stop crying over the same exact things you're guilty of, and man up and debate instead of shying off and pretending to troll after getting your ass handed to. If I got offended and felt Sidious position as being the ultimate sith, I wouldn't be as generous as I am. I don't throw up Sidious speed do I? No, because I don't feel I need to. Although if I did, you'd be unable to refute it. And if you think you can, we could give it a shot. Choice is yours.

http://www.footballphds.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/haha-you-are-loser.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Psmith is slaughtering S66 so bad in this.


He certainly is. His insults and comebacks are almost on par with yours.

OOOO there's a zinger.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You're bothered because you just typed a 304 word essay on why you weren't bothered.


Did you really count it?

@missmith, two jedi two sith equals balance. When Yoda died, Vader brought balance by destroying Sidious, because Yoda was the cause of the imbalance.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Did you really count it?

@missmith, two jedi two sith equals balance. When Yoda died, Vader brought balance by destroying Sidious, because Yoda was the cause of the imbalance.

Remind us how that makes Sidious' dark side strength "unmatched"? I know you were trying to weasel in the "Sidious caused imbalance versus the entire jedi order" argument. No matter, amusing enough.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Remind us how that makes Sidious' dark side strength "unmatched"? I know you were trying to weasel in the "Sidious caused imbalance versus the entire jedi order" argument. No matter, amusing enough.


Lmao, no, no. Don't try that.

You entered a discussion regarding what bringing balance meant, so how about you remind us what it is. No one mentioned the number of force users other than you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He certainly is. His insults and comebacks are almost on par with yours.
http://i.imgur.com/oguBZmC.gif

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Lmao, no, no. Don't try that.

You entered a discussion regarding what bringing balance meant, so how about you remind us what it is. No one mentioned the number of force users other than you.

You said Sidous' dark side strength was so unmatched, that Vader killing him brought balance to the force. Your premise does not match your conclusion. Please continue with your "I'll post last dag nabit!" method.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, what am I bothered about? You're inability to prove Vitiate comes close to Sidious? I'm actually glad you can't. My post wasn't even directed at you. I was just explaining why I view Sidious as being vastly superior to Vitiate, and that living long has nothing to do with Sidious being solidly above him, considering his natural potency with the dark side, which I explained in great detail. You took it upon yourself to respond to a post that wasn't directed at you, and then got mad, and then accused me of being a dick after insulting me. Basically, Neph, you're a cry baby.

I did explain a difference. Go back over my posts if you're that interested.

Yes, I meant post. I went over and edited my posts.

Me being "condescending" isn't nearly as bad as asking stupid questions that you should know the answer to if you read my post. If you didn't, then you have absolutely no business replying to it or asking questions about it. No Malgus in way compares to Sidious or the command Sidious has over the dark side, no sith has. That's a fact, but, by all means, carry on complaining about it.

I would throw you the same love I do Carthage if you'd stop crying over the same exact things you're guilty of, and man up and debate instead of shying off and pretending to troll after getting your ass handed to. If I got offended and felt Sidious position as being the ultimate sith, I wouldn't be as generous as I am. I don't throw up Sidious speed do I? No, because I don't feel I need to. Although if I did, you'd be unable to refute it. And if you think you can, we could give it a shot. Choice is yours.

You're clearly very defensive about this subject. It cuts you deeply that people don't accept Sidious unquestioningly like you do and say that Vitiate *gasp* rivals him somewhat. You were obviously very offended by my simple question, hence why you're jumping down my throat so much. Me stating you were being a dick wasn't me crying over anything. I was just stating a fact, for the record.

Unlikely to see anything new bro. Heard it ALL before.

My stupidity shouldn't offend you. I'd think siring Carthage would make you more tolerant than that.

And I see you're back to just yelling about how great Sidious is again. YOu know I wasn't comparing Malgus and Sidious at all, I was just hoping you'd maybe say something like "Yeah Neph, Malgus is pretty powerful too. Shame he was so ****ing ugly amirite! Hahaha!"

Dude, I'm not going to debate you when you so clearly have it out for me. I tried to talk to you regardless remember and you just threw old debates back in my face again. If you could stop being such a sourpuss I'd be happy to argue shit with you but you're soooo pissed off and bitter all the time it's totally not worth it. Look at how a small comment turned into a huge arguement here? I'd just prefer to not.

? <- this question mark serves no purpose at all or is remotely significant.

Nephthys only typed a 238 word essay. This is proof that S66 is more bothered then Nephthys. Let's laugh at S66.

TBF I also took the effort to put a secret code into my reply, so maybe I am super bothered/bored.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@missmith, two jedi two sith equals balance. When Yoda died, Vader brought balance by destroying Sidious, because Yoda was the cause of the imbalance.

Didn't Lucas say that the darkside was the imbalance and that by destroying that, Anakin brought balance?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i.imgur.com/oguBZmC.gif





Originally posted by psmith81992
You said Sidous' dark side strength was so unmatched, that Vader killing him brought balance to the force. Your premise does not match your conclusion. Please continue with your "I'll post last dag nabit!" method.


Really, explain how it doesn't. Regardless that's not all what was said.

Furthermore, that's not why you entered the debate. You attempted to teach me what bringing balance was about.

That hidden message was pretty excellent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
TBF I also took the effort to put a secret code into my reply, so maybe I am super bothered/bored.

I see what you did there lol

BTW I mostly put Nihilus above both Vitiate AND Sidious in raw power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
TBF I also took the effort to put a secret code into my reply, so maybe I am super bothered/bored.



Didn't Lucas say that the darkside was the imbalance and that by destroying that, Anakin brought balance?


I don't remember him saying that, but yes he did say the dark side was the imbalance and the corrupt side (something along those lines), and also said Sidious was the source of all evil. If Palpatine's death was what caused balance, then that would imply he was the main source of it's power at the time, which is backed by The New Essential Guide to Characters, which states Anakin fulfilled the prophecy by destroying Sidious.

He said the darkside is a cancer in the Force or something and that balance was the force in its natural state.

Well, that says all we need to know about your debate. Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're clearly very defensive about this subject. It cuts you deeply that people don't accept Sidious unquestioningly like you do and say that Vitiate *gasp* rivals him somewhat. You were obviously very offended by my simple question, hence why you're jumping down my throat so much. Me stating you were being a dick wasn't me crying over anything. I was just stating a fact, for the record.

Unlikely to see anything new bro. Heard it ALL before.

My stupidity shouldn't offend you. I'd think siring Carthage would make you more tolerant than that.

And I see you're back to just yelling about how great Sidious is again. YOu know I wasn't comparing Malgus and Sidious at all, I was just hoping you'd maybe say something like "Yeah Neph, Malgus is pretty powerful too. Shame he was so ****ing ugly amirite! Hahaha!"

Dude, I'm not going to debate you when you so clearly have it out for me. I tried to talk to you regardless remember and you just threw old debates back in my face again. If you could stop being such a sourpuss I'd be happy to argue shit with you but you're soooo pissed off and bitter all the time it's totally not worth it. Look at how a small comment turned into a huge arguement here? I'd just prefer to not.

? <- this question mark serves no purpose at all or is remotely significant.


I like debating SW, hence why I even post here, unlike missmith, who posts here to try to convince people here of his unmatched manliness.

You say I'm bothered, yet you're the one complaining about me bringing up Sidious.

At least Cart debates instead of whining. All you do is cry and whine without even attempting to refute. You are bothered by Sidious's superiority over DS enhanced Vitiate.

We can end the bickering and compare their abilities and accolades, I promise you Vitiate won't come close in a comparison. In fact, I will use ROTS just to make it fair. Do you accept, or do you want to keep crying?

Ant, I shortened my post. Does this mean I'm less bothered?

Originally posted by psmith81992
Well, that says all we need to know about your debate. Concession accepted.


I called you out on a claim you made, and now you want to end it?

Look up the word concession, BTW.

I don't know, it seems the only one crying is you with your essays and grade school logic. It would be amusing if it wasn't so sad.


No no, you asked me to prove a negative when your premise didn't match your conclusion and you were unable to prove it, so it was desperation. There's nothing to end because you don't know what you're saying.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I don't know, it seems the only one crying is you with your essays and grade school logic. It would be amusing if it wasn't so sad.


No no, you asked me to prove a negative when your premise didn't match your conclusion and you were unable to prove it, so it was desperation. There's nothing to end because you don't know what you're saying.


If my premise doesn't match my conclusion then you should be able to explain how if you knew what they were. I didn't attempt to prove anything to you. What was my premise and what was my conclusion? I don't even think you understand my argument considering you misinterpreted it.

Nobody understands your argument.. Lets dumb this down so even you could attempt to understand.

Premise:



Conclusion:


Your conclusion doesn't follow the premise. In fact, it could even be considered blatantly false if you claim Sidious was unmatched because his death brought balance to the force (a balance that contained Luke, since Yoda was dead).

The line is Anakin "brought balance to the Force by eliminating the greatest evil the galaxy had ever known."

Beefy, you know that "balance" has nothing to do with the number of Jedi or Sith.

Originally posted by Unbowed
As for the OP, yes, he could be surpassed. As the ultimate champion of the Dark Side and Luke Skywalker's counterpart and ally against Abeloth, Krayt surpassed him.

http://media.tumblr.com/e6287f2623cb3aab111631302c12ea10/tumblr_inline_n4mm9p6Ggm1qjjzql.gif

...Pretty sure Palpatine was long dead by the time of that grudge match, so what's your point?

Originally posted by Unbowed
That's what that whole novel was all about.

50 points if you can cite the passage of the book that proves this.

I didn't say the line didn't exist I was asking for it. But the premise doesn't follow the conclusion or have anything to do with it really, which was the point.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I didn't say the line didn't exist I was asking for it.

I didn't say you said the line didn't exist; I simply provided it for you.

Originally posted by psmith81992
But the premise doesn't follow the conclusion or have anything to do with it really, which was the point.

Actually, S66's argument is fairly reasonable if not totally conclusive: we know that in Legends and canon, the Force doesn't shift out of balance until around the prequel trilogy. That the Sith order existed (in secret) prior to that without throwing the Force off kilter suggests that not just any Tom, Sith, and Harry can affect it so powerfully.

Fairly reasonable to assume someone's power is unmatched because Anakin brought balance to the force, which remind me, consisted of Yoda, Luke and...?

You sure you're not reaching here?

Originally posted by psmith81992
Fairly reasonable to assume someone's power is unmatched because Anakin brought balance to the force, which remind me, consisted of Yoda, Luke and...?

I believe his argument is that because Palpatine's death balanced the Force and affected it in a way that quite honestly no other Sith Lord has, Palpatine must have been extraordinarily powerful even among powerful Sith Lords.

And Yoda and Luke had nothing to do with the balance on a metaphysical level. It's not a numbers game.

No, that isn't his argument because it would be a redundant argument. We know Palpatine is extraordinarily powerful. He said his power was "unmatched" because he brought balance to the force.. That isn't a valid argument.. You know this..

And I'm really not familiar with the balance to the force issue because it lacks consistency. Has it ever been out of balance? Or was the concept introduced solely for the PT era?

Palpatine spent a great amount of time augmenting his already massive Force sensitivity. I wonder how many people have lifetimes to do these things. The accumulation of thousands of years of teachings, combined with Palpatine's decades of experience and research on his own. I don't imagine many people would be able to.

Originally posted by psmith81992
No, that isn't his argument because it would be a redundant argument. We know Palpatine is extraordinarily powerful. He said his power was "unmatched" because he brought balance to the force.. That isn't a valid argument.. You know this..

Palpatine didn't bring balance to the Force, Anakin did. S66 is arguing that because Palpatine's death brought balance to the Force and not, say, Bane's or any other Sith Lord, Palpatine must have been stronger in the dark side than all of them. That's not conclusive, but it's not unreasonable either.

Originally posted by psmith81992
And I'm really not familiar with the balance to the force issue because it lacks consistency. Has it ever been out of balance? Or was the concept introduced solely for the PT era?

Solely for the PT era for Legends and canon.

It's not only about time but the force potential to absorb these teachings. Character A and character B can have the same teachings, but the guy with more force potential will absorb more of the teachings.

But...Then it would be reasonable to assume Bane is up there with Palpatine because he's the sith'ari, using the same reaching logic.

And again, it's hard for me to reconcile the "Balance of the force" issue when it doesn't exist outside the PT.

Originally posted by psmith81992
(a balance that contained Luke, since Yoda was dead).


Lmao @ this.

As for the rest, Palpatine's death diffusing the dark side throughout the galaxy and bringing balance to the force supported my conclusion: that he was the most powerful sith due to his unity/unique connection to the dark side, which was greater than any sith before or after him. The fact that his death brought balance, suggesting the great effect he had on the force supports the notion perfectly. You're a dumbass. Lmao.

And, yes, what Tempest said. For Palpatine's death to affect the force in such a way, would indeed suggest the level of control he had over the dark side. He was it's main source at the time.

Nobody's paying attention to you anymore Sidious, I'm glad you brought the cavalry to save you from further embarrassment. Smart move.

Originally posted by psmith81992
But...Then it would be reasonable to assume Bane is up there with Palpatine because he's the sith'ari, using the same reaching logic.

How so?

Originally posted by psmith81992
And again, it's hard for me to reconcile the "Balance of the force" issue when it doesn't exist outside the PT.

That's just it, I think. S66 is arguing that it doesn't exist outside of the films because without Palpatine in play, the Force's balance isn't threatened.

Because of circumstance X (balance of the force), Sidious is "unmatched".

How is that different than me saying because of circumstance Y (Bane is the sith'ari), Bane is unmatched. Same logic applies, both are invalid.


But that's a baseless assertion that warrants proof.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Because of circumstance X (balance of the force), Sidious is "unmatched".

How is that different than me saying because of circumstance Y (Bane is the sith'ari), Bane is unmatched. Same logic applies, both are invalid.

?

Only if we take the prophecy of the Sith'ari as absolutely literal, which begs the question how the Sith'ari, a creature of "perfect strength" would ever be defeated and die?

To compare the Sith'ari to Palpatine's cosmological status is to compare apples to oranges. Palpatine's death literally brought the galaxy's supernatural omnipresent energy field back into balance.

Originally posted by psmith81992
But that's a baseless assertion that warrants proof.

That Palpatine's death balances the Force is proof enough.

What are we asking for proof of? That Palpatine affected the Force or that the Sith were the source of it?

No, that's reaching.


Where does it say that the perfect being cannot die though?


How does this relate to the Ones, who were literally the balance of the force?

Dunno at this point.

Originally posted by psmith81992
No, that's reaching.

...How?

Originally posted by psmith81992
Where does it say that the perfect being cannot die though?

Given that perfection requires the total absence of weakness, frailty, or failure, I'm pretty sure by definition Bane should have never died or been defeated.



No, the Ones were physical manifestations of the Force on Mortis. "Balance" was represented by The Father. But again, all that was relevant only to Mortis.

Says you. He's your favorite character so you'll take the slightest hint of proof as end all. He is not my favorite character so I require something with a bit more..Substance.


Not necessarily. It's the same reason why an omnipotent God can create a stone that he can't lift, then lift it.


What the? Ok so if balance was represented by the Father, wtf does Sidious have to do with balance? I'm already lost with all of these bullshit stories.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I'm already lost


You are.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Says you. He's your favorite character so you'll take the slightest hint of proof as end all. He is not my favorite character so I require something with a bit more..Substance.

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/03/Frank-Underwood-Eye-roll-GIF.gif

Let's skip the part where this devolves into an endless ***-for-tat about bias, Sidious, Vitiate & Revan, and jump to the "agree to disagree" chapter.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You are.

You've already been embarrassed enough, adults are talking now.


Sure.. I don't disagree Sidous' rank. I(and everybody else) poke fun at Sidious' retarded argument and reaching. You choose to accept with the least bit of substance available. I probably would do the same with Revan/Vitiate, so you're forgiven.

The novel claims that Plagueis and Sidious both have sovereignty over the Force. Not just one or the other, but both. However, Plagueis is already long dead by the time Palpatine is finally "killed," but balance didn't return until Palpatine died on the Death Star. That shows the Palpatine was able to hold the Force in check over the entire galaxy, even with the Ones alive on Mortis, for decades. No Sith, ever, before or since, has accomplished such a feat. I don't get why that's so hard to believe.

Because apparently The Ones have nothing to do with anything. And when your only competition is Luke and a 900 year old Yoda, that's not very impressive.

One Sith vs ever Jedi in the galaxy, none of which had any actual control over the Force. Even Mace saw Sidious as the Dark Side and Anakin as his Shatterpoint. I really don't get what you're getting at.

But it wasn't one vs. every jedi. Palpatine's death created the balance in the force but it was Palpatine and Vader vs. Luke and Yoda. Nothing states Palpatine vs. the entire jedi order.

...Pretty sure Palpatine was long dead by the time of that grudge match, so what's your point?

My point is exactly what I said. That Krayt had surpassed Sidious.


50 points if you can cite the passage of the book that proves this.
Happy to. The passage is called "reading comprehension".

Chaos and Balance are the theme of the whole book. That Abeloth was simply beyond anything the Galaxy had ever seen before, beyond even Sidious and Vader(a character literally says as much, though I can't remember who). That with the Ones gone, only Jedi and Sith together can stop her. That Luke and Krayt had to step in the shoes of the Son and the Daughter. Abeloth was the "Bringer of Chaos", and only balance could stop her. Balance between light and dark.

Light Side = Dark Side
Daughter = Son
Luke = Krayt

They are each equals and opposites, counterparts. Balance.

That duality is emphasized over and over again so many times the writer might as well have smacked you across the head with the book. If you don't get that, I'm not sure what can be done for you...

Originally posted by psmith81992
But it wasn't one vs. every jedi. Palpatine's death created the balance in the force but it was Palpatine and Vader vs. Luke and Yoda. Nothing states Palpatine vs. the entire jedi order.
You do realise that the Force was out of balance since pre-TPM, yes?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You do realise that the Force was out of balance since pre-TPM, yes?

Yea and it took both Plagueis and Sidious to "unbalance" the force..

Originally posted by psmith81992
You've already been embarrassed enough, adults are talking now.


Despite the fact that The_Tempest is far better at wording arguments than I am, making them more clear and understandable, you're still unable to grasp something so simple.

You.Are.A.Dumbass.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Yea and it took both Plagueis and Sidious to "unbalance" the force..
It stayed unbalance even with Plagueis dead. If Sidious didn't have enough will to and power control the Force, it would have reverted back the state it was in before. There will is what gave them control. Sidious is also the major source of the Dark Side in the galaxy after Plagueis death by every account. I don't get what you don't understand.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Despite the fact that The_Tempest is far better at wording arguments than I am, making them more clear and understandable, you're still unable to grasp something so simple.

You.Are.A.Dumbass.

Says the kid who's constantly getting embarrassed and lost in his own words.



So both of them unbalanced the force but...It was really Sidious? Lol. That sound as stupid as anything s66 has said.

Psmith is smarter then S66, and a better debater.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You.Are.A.Dumbass.
/watch?v=OLBOn0Whhyc

My pet hamster is smarter than s66. That's why he needs to get the big boys involved.

Originally posted by psmith81992

So both of them unbalanced the force but...It was really Sidious? Lol. That sound as stupid as anything s66 has said.
They took control over the Force. Palpatine maintained that control on his own. :/

But he didn't take over, and that's the point. Moreover, lets say Palpatine tipped the balance to the dark side when it was him against the entire Jedi Order. How much of a one sided affair would it be if it was him against Yoda and Luke? It was actually more even when it was 2 vs 2. And finally, how does Palpatine's death balance the force exactly? I forget, do we consider a balance when the light side exists and the dark side does not?

There's just too many inconclusive elements.

Or you could learn what the word "sovereignty" means. The Force wouldn't just let Palpatine control it. It didn't just let Plagueis control it. That is why Anakin exists in the first place. Seriously. I thought this was the stuff most people got when they were building the Millennium Falcon out of legos.

Originally posted by psmith81992
My pet hamster is smarter than s66. That's why he needs to get the big boys involved.


Freshest and Tempest get it. Why are you so lost? (lol)

Still trying to calculate the number of force users?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Or you could learn what the word "sovereignty" means. The Force wouldn't just let Palpatine control it. It didn't just let Plagueis control it. That is why Anakin exists in the first place. Seriously. I thought this was the stuff most people got when they were building the Millennium Falcon out of legos.


He's just stuck.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Freshest and Tempest get it. Why are you so lost? (lol)

Still trying to calculate the number of force users?

Are you still trying to save face from embarrassing yourself? Haven't we humiliated you enough for one night?


Yea, I believe I stated that neither one of them controlled it themselves. For someone talking about "legos", you seem to have trouble with reading comprehension. S66's stupidity rubbing off on you?

And for the millionth time, show me where it says Anakin was created as a direct result of Plagueis' machinations. And try to be a little more thorough than S66, otherwise you'll end up having to bet smarter people to fight your battles.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Are you still trying to save face from embarrassing yourself? Haven't we humiliated you enough for one night?


Yea, I believe I stated that neither one of them controlled it themselves. For someone talking about "legos", you seem to have trouble with reading comprehension. S66's stupidity rubbing off on you?

And for the millionth time, show me where it says Anakin was created as a direct result of Plagueis' machinations. And try to be a little more thorough than S66, otherwise you'll end up having to bet smarter people to fight your battles.


There was Yoda, Kenobi, and Luke. Then Kenobi let Vader strike him down, and Yoda fell asleep and died, both leaving Luke the only jedi left against Vader and Sidious. Imbalance was caused by Yoda and Kenobi, then Vader had to sacrifice himself and kill Sidious, leaving just Luke. Balance was never achieved. I'm confused.

You're good at math. Please dumb this down for me again.

Do not be surprised if the new movie has a Sith or a Dark-sider in general that is way more powerful than Palpatine.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Do not be surprised if the new movie has a Sith or a Dark-sider in general that is way more powerful than Palpatine.

This is what I'm afraid of to be honest.

I don't think Disney can create a new sith as good as Vader or Sidious so I hope they use Caedus as he is the only villain came after Palpatine who is fit to be an antagonist of a movie unlike the Vong, Abeloth or Krayt.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There was Yoda, Kenobi, and Luke. Then Kenobi let Vader strike him down, and Yoda fell asleep and died, both leaving Luke the only jedi left against Vader and Sidious. Imbalance was caused by Yoda and Kenobi, then Vader had to sacrifice himself and kill Sidious, leaving just Luke. Balance was never achieved. I'm confused.

You're good at math. Please dumb this down for me again.

How did Sidious by himself cause imbalance against the entire jedi order, and then Yoda and Obiwan caused imbalance against Sidious?

If we go by EU, killing Sidious did not bring the balance to the Force. Balance was maintained by Mortis family. After their death there is no one to keep balance.

This is really my entire point. I've lost familiarity with this shit a while back, then new and more contradictory storylines opened up. It's amusing to watch fanboys pick and choose what to follow though. I remember doing the same with Vitiate and Revan.

Originally posted by The_Tempest


No, the Ones were physical manifestations of the Force on Mortis. "Balance" was represented by The Father. But again, all that was relevant only to Mortis.


Iirc the episode made it kind of clear that their Balance had repercussions on the rest of the Galaxy.

Hence why when the Daughter dies, The Father said the Sith have gained strength.

Not that it matters in this debate though, because all 3 of them died by the end of that arc.

And aren't they considered part of canon? If so, doesn't that reduce Sidious' power and Anakin's contribution? It gets dumber the more we talk about it.

Originally posted by psmith81992
doesn't that reduce Sidious' power and Anakin's contribution?

How so? Sidious caused imbalance in the force. The Ones were more powerful and could have shifted that balance one way or the other were they not controlled by The Father. But they all died in the end so had no effect on Sidious and Vader's destiny or balancing/imbalancing of the Force.

But it was just said that the Father kept the balance. I understand when the daughter died, the balance didn't exist. But that doesn't account for Palpatine's reign or death. So I want to know how you people reconcile all of this nonsense.

Originally posted by psmith81992
But it was just said that the Father kept the balance. I understand when the daughter died, the balance didn't exist. But that doesn't account for Palpatine's reign or death. So I want to know how you people reconcile all of this nonsense.

The Father only kept balance between the Son and Daughter. Because if either one of them was to be dominant, that would shift the balance of the Force throughout the Galaxy.

But when all 3 of them died that subject was no longer relevant, and had zero impact on Sidious causing an imbalance in the force, or on Vader restoring that balance.

Oh and btw to whoever said the force was out of balance since TPM that's not true in Official Canon. Because when Darth Maul is revived on TCW, he senses for the first time that the Force is out of Balance.

Yea, I figured Freshslice was full of shit on that account.

SWTOR have its own take on "balance of the Force" theory:

The Force was omnipresent. It radiated stronger in certain places and at certain times, and the balance of the dark side and the light constantly shifted. But it was always there in some way, shape, or form.

&

"The Force always strives for balance. The Emperor is an agent of darkness and destruction. It is inevitable that a champion of the light will one day rise to oppose him. I may be that champion." (Revan)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and btw to whoever said the force was out of balance since TPM that's not true in Official Canon. Because when Darth Maul is revived on TCW, he senses for the first time that the Force is out of Balance.
The Force is out of balance before Maul was even born. I gave a quote from when it actually happened. The Jedi's impaired sensing also began before TCW. What Maul is talking about is the Clone Wars. Not the shift that happened before he even existed.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Force is out of balance before Maul was even born. I gave a quote from when it actually happened. The Jedi's impaired sensing also began before TCW. What Maul is talking about is the Clone Wars. Not the shift that happened before he even existed.

Where's the quote from though? Is it Eu, or an official canon source?

I'm just pointing out that line in TCW seems to suggest "Official Canon" has the Force out of balance Post TPM.

Originally posted by Unbowed
My point is exactly what I said. That Krayt had surpassed Sidious.

...Except your conclusion doesn't logically follow your premise. Sidious was long dead before the events of Apocalypse and Abeloth hadn't been released during Sidious's lifetime. Now had Sidious and Abeloth been around during that time and Krayt stepped up to the plate anyway, thus being "chosen" over Palpatine, you'd have something resembling a cogent point. But that wasn't the case and so you don't.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Happy to. The passage is called "reading comprehension".

Chaos and Balance are the theme of the whole book. That Abeloth was simply beyond anything the Galaxy had ever seen before, beyond even Sidious and Vader(a character literally says as much, though I can't remember who). That with the Ones gone, only Jedi and Sith together can stop her. That Luke and Krayt had to step in the shoes of the Son and the Daughter. Abeloth was the "Bringer of Chaos", and only balance could stop her. Balance between light and dark.

Light Side = Dark Side
Daughter = Son
Luke = Krayt

They are each equals and opposites, counterparts. Balance.

That duality is emphasized over and over again so many times the writer might as well have smacked you across the head with the book. If you don't get that, I'm not sure what can be done for you...

Sounds like the passage is called "fanon." Sidious was long dead by the time Abeloth was released, he wasn't around to even qualify for such a "duality." That Krayt stepped up to challenge Abeloth beside Luke implies he's the strongest Sith Lord at that time (which no one disputes), but to suggest that it indicates conclusive superiority over any Sith Lord who wasn't alive at the time is pretty stupid.

Try harder, bro.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where's the quote from though? Is it Eu, or an official canon source?

I'm just pointing out that line in TCW seems to suggest "Official Canon" has the Force out of balance Post TPM.

The end of Cloak of Deception has the Jedi Council remarking that "the balance is tipping." Darth Plagueis (in one of, if not the, dumbest parts of the book) has Plagueis and Sidious willfully throwing the Force out of whack in a ritual. StarWars.com states, under the Sith entry, that "the Sith had returned, clouding the Force with the power of the dark side." And Darth Maul remarks in Star Wars: The Clone Wars that the Force is out of balance, implying it wasn't when he was last sane.

So nothing makes sense anymore. Got it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Darth Plagueis (in one of, if not the, dumbest parts of the book) has Plagueis and Sidious willfully throwing the Force out of whack in a ritual.
Was it even a ritual? It seemed like they just yelled at the Force until it relented. I'm kind of unsure, reading it again.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Was it even a ritual? It seemed like they just yelled at the Force until it relented. I'm kind of unsure, reading it again.

Pretty much. Took 'em two months.

Originally posted by psmith81992
How did Sidious by himself cause imbalance against the entire jedi order, and then Yoda and Obiwan caused imbalance against Sidious?


IDK, I'm the one learning from you, remember?

It was a rhetorical question because it makes no sense. Looks like you're still not following along. Shocking.

Originally posted by psmith81992
So nothing makes sense anymore. Got it.


Not when you mix up Official Canon with the EU.

Which is why Disney did the right thing by separating all previous comics/books from Official Canon.

I mean you can make it make sense. Axing the lot of it is probably a lot more sensical and logical, however.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not when you mix up Official Canon with the EU.


Not really. G-canon was always higher than the EU, and Lucas confirmed that Anakin did fulfill the prophecy. And as Freshest said, you could make sense of it. Point is, there was no way in getting around the fact that Anakin did fulfill his destiny.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which is why Disney did the right thing by separating all previous comics/books from Official Canon.




I mean, I do hate to see some of the EU go, but with all the inconsistencies in it, I think it's necessary.

Hopefully they confirm the Mortis family as being just illusions created by the force. I don't like the idea of force god-like beings in SW other than the Force Priestesses. Looking back at the Mortis trilogy, though, that whole incident was pretty much irrelevant, and the Father seemed far too ignorant to have lived as long as he did and to be as powerful as he was. I'm hoping it was just the forces way of warning Anakin the dangers of using the dark side, but then again that wouldn't make too much sense considering how Anakin was given a detailed vision of his future only to have it erased from his memory.

I just think the whole arc was silly, and the Ones of Mortis all seemed kooky and nuts. The force priestesses seemed much more intelligent and knowledgeable. I enjoyed the Mortis trilogy when I first watched it, but thinking back on it, it seems irrelevant, IMO.

Jesus, this thread became ****ing terrible after I left.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I like debating SW, hence why I even post here, unlike missmith, who posts here to try to convince people here of his unmatched manliness.

You say I'm bothered, yet you're the one complaining about me bringing up Sidious.

At least Cart debates instead of whining. All you do is cry and whine without even attempting to refute. You are bothered by Sidious's superiority over DS enhanced Vitiate.

We can end the bickering and compare their abilities and accolades, I promise you Vitiate won't come close in a comparison. In fact, I will use ROTS just to make it fair. Do you accept, or do you want to keep crying?

Ant, I shortened my post. Does this mean I'm less bothered?

No thanks.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not really. G-canon was always higher than the EU, and Lucas confirmed that Anakin did fulfill the prophecy. And as Freshest said, you could make sense of it. Point is, there was no way in getting around the fact that Anakin did fulfill his destiny.




The prophecy has always had problems in the Eu.

G-Canon was higher than the EU, but would consistently contradict it with new material. Like you can try and make sense out of the Emperor's rebirth in DE after it was Anakin's destiny to destroy him, but honestly it made no sense, simply because there was no proper synergy between mediums.

Lucas did his thing, then the rest of the countless EU authors would do their thing trying to fit in with Lucas's new additions to canon.

But the only way to do that right is to have a board that consults with the people making the movies, animation and comics/novels/games to tell them all what can and can't be done, providing proper synergy between the different mediums. Having a coherent plan nehind all of it (like the Marvel movies have done with their shared Universe).

And that's whats being done now with SW. And I for one am happy that anything new I read with Vader, Tarkin, Ventress, Vos or whoever in it will be proper canon in the movie world as well.

But like you both agreed the only way to do that right was to eliminate all the old EU (minus TCW).

Some people ignore this fact in favor of confirmation bias.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The prophecy has always had problems in the Eu.

G-Canon was higher than the EU, but would consistently contradict it with new material. Like you can try and make sense out of the Emperor's rebirth in DE after it was Anakin's destiny to destroy him, but honestly it made no sense, simply because there was no proper synergy between mediums.

Lucas did his thing, then the rest of the countless EU authors would do their thing trying to fit in with Lucas's new additions to canon.

But the only way to do that right is to have a board that consults with the people making the movies, animation and comics/novels/games to tell them all what can and can't be done, providing proper synergy between the different mediums. Having a coherent plan nehind all of it (like the Marvel movies have done with their shared Universe).

And that's whats being done now with SW. And I for one am happy that anything new I read with Vader, Tarkin, Ventress, Vos or whoever in it will be proper canon in the movie world as well.

But like you both agreed the only way to do that right was to eliminate all the old EU (minus TCW).


Actually the rebirth of Sidious, or Caedus becoming a sith, Abeloth , or the recreation of a new sith order didn't contradict Anakin bringing balance, it just undermined it a lot. Fact is, Anakin did bring balance, even if it was short lived.

Even Disney will likely undermine it a bit, considering there likely will be a force using antagonist, but hopefully not to the same extent that the EU did. I've heard rumors that Palpatine will be the main villain of the new movies. If he is, hopefully he's in spirit form and won't have the same affect on the force as he did when he was alive, which won't diminish Anakin's sacrifice as much as the EU did.