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Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement. Is it a moral religion?

The case of substitutionary atonement that I wish to speak of is when God deemed it moral and just to punish his innocent son Jesus, --- instead of punishing the guilty sinners that God was to condemn.

The strange part of this situation is that God had chosen to sacrifice Jesus even before the potential for sin was created, --- God had yet to create the earth, --- showing that what God was killing Jesus for, --- he had yet to create.

This was an arbitrary choice for God that was completely needless. God could have chosen to punish the guilty, --- what most call justice, --- or God could have found a moral way to forgive us. Instead, God chose to do the unjust and punish the innocent instead of the guilty.

The sacrifice was to pay or bribe God to change his usual policy of punishing the guilty to immorally punishing Jesus. God could have shown mercy and justice but instead decided to use an unjust method to forgive us.

That means that to be a good Christian, you have to accept and embrace the immoral tenet of human sacrifice and the notion that the best form of justice, --- when one wants to forgive someone, --- is to kill an innocent party.

As above so below.

At the end of days, God is to bring his law to earth.

Would you, as an innocent party, think it just if God punished you instead of the guilty?

Do you think that Jesus would ever preach such an immoral form of justice?

Regards
DL

As a staunch atheist, your threads make me want to defend Christianity. However, I'll let those with an actual horse in the race take up the cause if they so wish.

I know, maybe he is trying to convert people to christianity by spouting bs about it mmm

Sometimes an attack can be leveled against an extremist sect of a religion, but not the entire religion. With this, I don't think I've ever encountered a Christian sect with this interpretation, or anything close to it. Every sect from the most liberal to the most extreme, from biblical scholars to the old lady that sings in the church choir, would look at this and have a similar response after disagreeing with it. Christianity 101 - as in, the basic ideas that underlie literally all Christian thought - refutes this thread's premise.

Since interpretation of the bible is subjective, I can't technically call this a strawman. But in practical terms, he has an audience of zero.

I'm all for hearing uncommon interpretation of different religious traditions, but when they are so fixed against the official stances of christianity they are a bit too defined by it to rise my interest.

Interpretation leads itself to wider debates, which is sometimes cool, but it also makes it harder to validate an argument. Lot's of that in these forums.

Originally posted by Digi
... in practical terms, he has an audience of zero.


Not so. The only thing I'm wondering is if it makes sense to engage the man.
Not because he may or may not have a point, but because I'm not sure he actually would look at, read, and discuss any responses. From everything I've learned in the past few months, though, this is Gnosticism, sometimes called Gnostic Luciferianism, 101.

Originally posted by Bentley
I'm all for hearing uncommon interpretation of different religious traditions, but when they are so fixed against the official stances of christianity they are a bit too defined by it to rise my interest.

Interpretation leads itself to wider debates, which is sometimes cool, but it also makes it harder to validate an argument. Lot's of that in these forums.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Digi
As a staunch atheist, your threads make me want to defend Christianity. However, I'll let those with an actual horse in the race take up the cause if they so wish.

That and as an atheist, you likely have better morals than the average Christian.

I can appreciate those with a heart like yourself wanting to reduce my bullying Christians bur as you can see from their poor morals, they need a rude awakening.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Digi
Sometimes an attack can be leveled against an extremist sect of a religion, but not the entire religion. With this, I don't think I've ever encountered a Christian sect with this interpretation, or anything close to it. Every sect from the most liberal to the most extreme, from biblical scholars to the old lady that sings in the church choir, would look at this and have a similar response after disagreeing with it. Christianity 101 - as in, the basic ideas that underlie literally all Christian thought - refutes this thread's premise.

Since interpretation of the bible is subjective, I can't technically call this a strawman. But in practical terms, he has an audience of zero.

Every Christian sect that flies the cross is immoral as their religion is based on barbaric human sacrifice and their desire to profit from murder.

Their dogma hides the facts but those are the irrefutable facts.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Bentley
I'm all for hearing uncommon interpretation of different religious traditions, but when they are so fixed against the official stances of christianity they are a bit too defined by it to rise my interest.

Interpretation leads itself to wider debates, which is sometimes cool, but it also makes it harder to validate an argument. Lot's of that in these forums.

Are you saying that substitutionary atonement is moral?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not so. The only thing I'm wondering is if it makes sense to engage the man.
Not because he may or may not have a point, but because I'm not sure he actually would look at, read, and discuss any responses. From everything I've learned in the past few months, though, this is Gnosticism, sometimes called Gnostic Luciferianism, 101.

By fools perhaps.

I try to read and answer all who have legitimate questions.

Not here that no one is talking morals and this is a moral question.

Waiting.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Are you saying that substitutionary atonement is moral?

Regards
DL


Whatever floats your boat

Originally posted by Bentley
Whatever floats your boat

So I decide your morality.

Pathetic.

Regards
DL

You ignore the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus is God. The second Person in the Trinity. God sacrificed Himself to redeem mankind, not some independent scapegoat which you are implying. God arranged to robe Himself in human flesh(Jesus) before the oundation of the world to atone for the sins of man.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
So I decide your morality.

Pathetic.

Regards
DL


You decide your morality and it's by your moality tha you'll judge me. You just don't care about my morality (or lack of thereof) at all.

So again, whatever floats your boat.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
You ignore the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus is God. The second Person in the Trinity. God sacrificed Himself to redeem mankind, not some independent scapegoat which you are implying. God arranged to robe Himself in human flesh(Jesus) before the oundation of the world to atone for the sins of man.

I don't think the trinity is in Gnostic Christianity.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Do you think that Jesus would ever preach such an immoral form of justice?

Regards
DL

well, if you think Jesus will NOT preach immoral things, then where on earth did you come up with all the stuff you're spewing?

Originally posted by dyajeep
well, if you think Jesus will NOT preach immoral things, then where on earth did you come up with all the stuff you're spewing?

Its so funny, he does not believe in Jesus, but he spends all his time talking against him, to which the person he does not believe in.

Originally posted by Stoic


Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Thumpers are so boring and dumb.

Christians call the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty,--- as in this case, --- good. When it is definitely evil. Ask any court.

Remember that and remember that those Christians make Satan quite happy.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by dyajeep
well, if you think Jesus will NOT preach immoral things, then where on earth did you come up with all the stuff you're spewing?

All you get is this. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4QXOgVfY9k&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

Regards
DL

you are obviously nitpicking verses to suit your argument and belief... and that's the reason why your username is "Greatest I am" because God used "I am" as His name:

"Then Moses said to God, If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you, and they ask me, What is his name? what shall I say to them?
God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. And he said, Say this to the people of Israel, I AM has sent me to you."
Exodus 3:13-14

you have, as usual, wrong interpretation on using "I am" as God's name... you believe that "I am" is the individual person that will be considered a God... oh my goodness, i'm shaking my head right now...

don't take "I am" literally...

the Hebrew word used is hayah (H1961) which means "He who causes to become", to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out...

He is the God who causes things to happen... it's not you, or any other individual, He is the creator of all...

Well it's like this; Is it immoral to murder children for the sins of their mother?

Is it immoral to murder people who have sex outside of wedlock?

Is it immoral to murder people who worship the wrong God?

If you find any of those acts immoral then you're contradicting the teachings of the bible.

For me what you have to keep in mind is that neither Jesus nor God actually sacrificed anything. God being God would of already known the "death" wouldn't stick. Thus he had nothing to really lose. Jesus likewise in the bible is some kind of superhuman immortal. The most he gave up was..a single weekend of his life.