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This thread is in reference to a back and forth argument between Stoic and myself. My argument is to prove that Hulk strength starts at High Herald and Stoic argument is to prove that Hulk doesn't start anywhere close to that. What i am going to do is post comments from the thread in question and have judges reply on either of our stance. If Hulk starts at the strength i stated or if he starts below High Herald level...to the point that he could get overwhelmed by a Herald during the Onset of the battle.

Stoic then states that Hulk strength ramps up every 5 minutes (will post that soon) and his base, basically the onset of his strength isn't enough to challenge a High Herald. So let's begin.

The voters are:

Darksaint
Riv
Bently

Replies are on the way. People are free to post since this isn't a battlezone but please do not derail the thread. Bada, please stay on board because I'm sure I would probably need you to delete some posts.

Okay good luck to both of you.

Hope stoic destroys carver.

....this is so sad...yet so funny.

Stoic post started off with this.

Originally posted by Stoic
He starts out lower than they do or his fights with Thor would have never lasted as long as they have. Bill also begins with high herald strength, the Hulk starts out at high meta - low herald strength. He would only win this if he comes in mad as hell, and has been this way for at least 30 minutes. ignoring this goes against every fight that Thor has had with the Hulk in the past. Bill on the other hand is more ruthless. He actually has the exact kind of ruthlessness to end this quickly with Thor doing the same. The Hulk isn't messing with the Abomination of old in this scenario, this is Thor.

This is the post that I have to counter. The next few posts will be from me, then I will post Stoic argument against my counter.

I then posted this...

Originally posted by carver9
If he starts out lower than they do, wouldn't Thor work him in the beginning of the match. Also, a Hulk that couldn't even amped kept pace with an enraged Thor.

url]http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%208/1.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%208/2.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%208/3.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%208/4.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%208/5.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%208/6.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%208/7.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%208/8.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%208/9.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd124/HulkFights/Vs%20Thor/Fight%208/10.jpg

If your assumption is true, how did a calm Hulk (that was there to help him) match an enraged Thor.

And Stoic countered my argument with this.

Originally posted by Stoic
Well with the Hulk it really always depends on what level he comes in at. He is never at the same level. Some days he could be angrier than others, which directly means that he would be stronger or weaker on any given day. When it comes to this sort of thing, I'm forced to cling to his handbook entry on the way that his powers work.

So are we using the Hulk at his base going in against these two, or is he pumped up? This is the question. The OP never states anything concerning this.

next post...

Originally posted by carver9
This argument doesn't make one bit of sense and lol at you using handbooks and by the way, what handbook states Hulk starts below Herald level at base?

Also, you are clearly ignoring evidence, CLEARLY. The Hulk in the scans I showed couldn't even get angry or he would turn back to Banner. That was a depowered Hulk that was able to match Thor. What happened to your saying of "if Thor or any Herald went all out in the beginning, they would drop him". Stoic, you don't have anything to be honest. NOTHING to help your argument except your thoughts and a made up handbook. Post this scan buddy.

On average, do you think Thor can hold up a mountain twice the size of the Appalachians? Well, base Hulk did. Not naming all of his base fts but let's put it like this. Savage Hulk, even at base form is far stronger than Fixit (who by far is the weakest version of Hulk) and Fixit had enough strength to throw a Pyramid.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11948644/11.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11948645/12.jpg.html

And that's not all he did, he overpowered Wonderman (who is class 100...mid to high class 100) and one shot koed him.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11948647/14-15.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11948648/16.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11948649/17.jpg.html

Now, are you going to sit here and tell me Grey Hulk is stronger than Savage Hulk at base as well because if so, you need to retire your Hulk card. By the way, nothing short of High Herald is throwing a Pyramid like a base ball.

Continued...

Stoic post (I'm not posting everything because it's over 10 pages of material. If the judges are interested in more material, it is in the Hulk vs Thor/Bill thread).

Originally posted by Stoic
welcome to my wall of text

You're obviously unable to keep up. Maybe I need to explain this to you like I would a child. Okay are you ready? The Hulk does not have a set level. Are you still with me up until this point? Because he does not have a set level, he does not always begin his battles at the same level of strength. So since we know this, there are times that he is weaker than other times. There have been several Hulk personality splits in the character's history. Do I need scans to prove this, or is this something that you are aware of?

Let's quickly run through the different personalities, in the hope that you are capable of comprehending.

The Grey Hulk - This was the weakest Hulk due to his base strength level (in a calm state), and because it generally took him longer than any other Hulk personality to ramp up in strength. He began at low to mid meta strength more times than not (again this is him in a calm state). This does not mean that he could not make it up to High Herald and beyond in terms of strength/power/durability/regeneration. Are you still with me? I am talking about how his powers actually work based on the people that created the character and his various personalities.

Savage Hulk - His base or calm state was Mid - High Meta depending on the situation. According to the people that created the character, it took him about 5 minutes to ramp up to Thor's level of strength, which is somewhere between Mid - High Herald. Thor may have a certain amount of dynamic strength because there have been cases that he has exceeded these constraints, but then again most characters do. No? He never began out at these levels? If not then how in the world was Captain America, or Spider Man able to punch him out? Do you need scans?

Merged Hulk - Had Mid to High Herald strength. He had a problem with his rage meter. This made him revert to human form, while regressing to an infantile state of intelligence. Are we in agreement?

Green Scar - In his calm state he walked around at High Herald strength levels, and could control his adrenaline levels to the point that he was able to ramp up to undefined levels of strength near instantaneously. This was shown during the HOTM arc. It was also written up as canon for the character throughout Planet Hulk all the way through to the Heart of Monster story line. The other Hulk's did not possess this ability based on the canon of the character. Do you agree?

The Indestructible Hulk - This is just another take on the Savage Hulk. He has not done anything that the Savage Hulk has not been able to do in the past in terms of the magnitude of his upper level feats.

Doc Green - Has yet to be defined.

Now to my point. Every Hulk that has been written, with the exception of Merged Hulk (to a point), to have a calm state. In this state he is not as strong as he is when he has been enraged for a predetermined period of time. This means that he does not begin off at the High Herald level of strength. If, he did begin off at this level, he would have automatically wiped the floor with Thor, the Abomination, Hercules, and several other characters that he has contended with in the past. Do I have to explain why this is to you Carver? Maybe I should, because up until this point, you don't seem to have the ability to grasp the concept of how the Hulk's power/s works.

If the Hulk began at the exact same strength level as Thor, he would have begun destroying him in less than 5 minutes. Are you able to understand why this is? The Hulk has also had it out with the Abomination time after time, and we literally see the disparity in their strength levels from the onset of combat. The Abomination has always started off trashing the Hulk with his Mid - High Herald level strength. The only reason that he did not kill the Hulk all of those times, was due to CIS and PIS. Blonsky would always stop beating the shit out of the Hulk, and take time to gloat about how he was going to do this and that. This gave the Hulk the time to catch up to him, and ultimately surpass his strength level. Do you need scans?

Now let's say that Beta Ray Bill, and Thor were unwilling to stand about talking about how big their muscles were, and actually dug into his ass from the onset of the battle. I mean without giving him a moment to breathe. They would KO him in less time than the Abomination could have, but did not, due to being plagued with CIS brought on by the PIS that those books were based on. Always keep in mind that those moments were foretold by the writers, and that he was always supposed to lose to the Hulk, despite having the ability to wipe the floor with him.

If we look at it from your perspective, The Hulk begins at High Herald level strength, and by the time 5 minutes would elapse, he would be comfortably in the High Trans tier in terms of strength/durability/regenerative levels. And every fight that he has had with Thor/Abomination/Hercules, and every other High Herald was PIS. Is this how people should see the Hulk? Now before you begin typing out all of the reason why you believe that I am incorrect. I want you to think about this one simple concept. The Hulk does not ever begin off at the same level of strength, because the situations that cause Bruce banner to change into the Hulk vary. For example; If he sees a child about to be hit by a train, and changes into the Hulk to save him or her, his level of stress would not be the same as if he as Bruce Banner changed into the Hulk because he was afraid of being stuck by a needle while at his dentist. The handbooks give us a generalization, or average median of what level he typically begins off at. However his strength has been written to drop when he is in a calm state.

Continue...

Stoic brings up Hulk losses against weaker foes which resulted in me posting the below.

Originally posted by carver9
@ Stoic...

I have come to realize you know nothing of the Hulk. Now it's time for my wall of text and then you try to use low showings to help your terrible argument against the Hulk not knowing Thor share the same showings. Let's begin.

You do know that the angrier Grey Hulk gets it usually reverts to his Savage persona which would be Savage Hulk's base. If you're sitting here telling me that an angry Grey Hulk can reach or exceed HIGH herald levels then that means that base Savage starts off at that level since anger from Grey is what reverts him to his Green persona.

Now let's get back to you lowballing Hulk with Spiderman. Lol...Spiderman has fought Thor and actually had an advantage against him at some points. Hell, recently Superior Spiderman with the symbiote took on the Avengers and took Thor out of the fight with a shield bash while mocking his strength...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/39001/3577894-ssm3.png

Then we have this showing.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/guyverjay/media/Thor_44803.jpg.html

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/139138/2775810-2053972_thorvsspiderman.jpg

Thor vs Wolverine.

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsWolverine012.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsWolverine02.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsWolverine03.jpg.html

Then he withstood Thor lightning.

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media-full/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsWolverine04.jpg.html

I can post more, a lot more if you want. I guess this means Thor starts below high herald strength. Honestly though, you have to admit, your arguments aren't good at all. You bring up things but never realize that others have been through the same thing (by the way, for the past 15 yrs, Spiderman and Cap has been insects to the Hulk). You make statements without evidence. No one ever said that Hulk strength has a cap but it does start at high Herald. I just freaking showed you a fight between a Hulk that could NOT get angry but was still able to match Thor. Guess what you did, you ignored it. I just posted a scan of Grey Hulk exceeding 100 tons, showing high Herald strength but you ignored it because you're stubborn and you debate against a character you have no knowledge of. Not realizing that the angrier Grey Hulk gets he reverts to Savage Hulk's base. So if Grey Hulk ramps up to high Herald physically and reverts to his Green Savage mode, what does that make base Hulk?

Five minutes for Hulk to ramp up his Strength? Where did you get that from? It had been stated on panel that it takes seconds for Hulk's strength to increase exponentially. SMH. Post a scan of where you got this from.

Stoic, every time I debate against you I am going to say this because you have a bad habit of writing things from your head...things that you think it should be that way. I DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR THOUGHTS ON THESE CHARACTERS. POST PROOF. PROVIDE SCANS. This isn't hard to do. Show me where you are getting this from or concede. Also, I provided evidence to you before with a current calm Hulk exceeding High Herald strength but like usual you wrote a bible on 'your thoughts' (without evidence of course) and ignored it. Now again, I don't care what you think because you're wrong. Provide proof backing up your claims or stop replying to me (5 minutes for him to ramp? Really).

Then I post a scene showing Grey Hulk turning to his Green persona.

Originally posted by carver9
Proof that Grey Hulk turns to Green when pissed.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/75182/2165493-932707-sch62tp_super.jpg

This isn't the only time that happened. Here Ms. Marvel's states Grey Hulk isn't close to being as strong as his Green counterpart (which goes against what Stoic is saying) and takes advantage of an opening and bfrs him after punching away at him.


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/69316/1670208-hulk_8_003.jpg

Guess what happened when Grey Hulk got pissed? He turns into Green BASE Hulk who then overpowered Ms. Marvel with one hand.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8d/52/d8/8d52d8c632afe690a0b4960b24968380.jpg

Will post the rest later.

So bait thread?

Nice scans Carv

No characters, especially the main ones start at extraordinary levels. They usually attains said level once they become desperate.

That's the Deus Ex Machina's the author's implores into the story as a valid reasoning why a powerful monster like the Hulk not squishing his oppositions that are far weaker than him whenever he faces them.

My judgement is that I am already regretting this....

SORRY FOR THE TYPOS AHEAD OF TIME.

Below is an emboldened and simplified version of how the Hulk's power/s work. There has been more detailed references of how they work, but this is all that I could retrieve online.

Hulk

The Hulk possesses the potential for limitless physical strength depending directly on his emotional state, particularly his anger. This has been reflected in the repeated comment, "The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets." The cosmically-powerful entity known as the Beyonder once analyzed the Hulk's physiology, and claimed that the Hulk's potential strength had" no finite element inside. Hulk's strength has been depicted as sometimes limited by Banner's subconscious influence; when Jean Grey psionically "shut Banner off", Hulk became strong enough to overpower and destroy the physical form of the villain Onslaught.

If the current Hulk on average begins off at High Herald levels of strength, and he gains strength as depicted by the way that his power actually works, how in the world would a mid - high herald character ever give him any form of resistance? Wouldn't he immediately over-shadow an opponent of this level? There was only one version of the Hulk that was able to consistently walk around in a calm state with high herald strength, and that was the Green Scar incarnation of the Hulk, who was able to boost up his strength by consciously willing himself to become stronger. the Savage Hulk did not possess the fine control over his emotions to do this. This was indirectly stated during the Planet hulk storyline, when he was taught how to meditate and consciously raise his physical stats.

Do we ignore that the Hulk grows stronger as time passes, and he becomes more excited to suit our view of the character sometimes. Or is the "madder he gets the stronger he gets" remain in effect as a constant?

Other than that, there were a very limited amount of times that he was able to raise his level of strength nearly as fast as the Green Scar version of the character could. War Hulk was one, and when Jean Grey buried or bound up the Banner portion of his psyche when he had his conflict with Onslaught was two. These are the only times that I can recall the Hulk breaking past the High Herald strength level before 5 minutes had elapsed.

With War Hulk he is rigged with Celestial technology, which allows him to tap into his power more efficiently than he was able to do previous to this story. Even here we see that it takes him time to ramp up, as the Juggernaut pushes him through a stretch of desert until he gains enough strength to slow Cain down to a near stop.

If we look at the characters that actually have High herald level strength like the Sentry did prior to his death, we see that a normal Savage hulk does not actually begin off at that level of strength.

When we look at Rulk, and how he was able to easily beat the Savage Hulk on more than one occasion, but then look at how the Green Scar was able to defeat him handily, we actually see that the Savage Hulk is not on this level of power when referring to his initial strength, and where it begins at the onset of combat.

When Thor fought Rulk during round 2, the Savage Hulk was there with him, and Rulk began to have his way with the Savage hulk, and would have beaten him again. Thor jumps in, and it was because of Thor, that the Hulk wasn't beaten down once again.

The Merged version of the Hulk was stated to have a base strength level greater than the Savage Hulk, and yet he was challenged by Wonder Man. The Merged Hulk fought a weakened Thor in the Antarctic, and he was unable to show that he was actually superior to Thor. Some say Thor won, some say the hulk won. I call it a draw. The Merged Hulk had Mid - High Herald strength.

PIS or not PIS
This is not me low balling the Hulk. It is my way of making heads or tails of the Hulk being KO'd by Spider Man, and Captain America. My view is that he was on a far weaker level than average, which allowed for him to be KO'd by these guys.

This again is not me low balling, but trying to make sense of how something like that could happen before throwing the PIS card out there. My only other thought of it, was that it was PIS, because neither of these two can hit harder than the guys that have failed to KO the Hulk in the past. Ignoring this, and saying that I am low balling without believing my claim will be on your head. I just made my thoughts known on the subject.

The reason why I would view Spider Man, or someone of his caliber KOing Thor, Firelord or any other character of this stature as PIS, while leaving the poor Hulk out in the rain, is because they have a constant level of strength, and durability. The Hulk does not. The Hulk does not have a static level of strength, but his strength, and other stats are dynamic.

The Madder I get, t stronger I become phenomena
This is a psychological statement, and to me this means that the transference of power begins with Banner in his human form. The level that the Savage Hulk begins at, depends directly on the stimuli that causes Banner (Human form) to change into the Hulk (Super irritated form).

For instance; if Banner in his human form is at the dentist, and suddenly gets the frights from a needle that he knows will be stuck into the cavity in his mouth, and changes into the Hulk due to his self induced panic, he may not come in as strong as he would, if he saw a Plane falling out of the sky, and needed to save his wife from dying. This concerns his initial transformation.

Anyone that has been on this site for long enough, knows that i am a Hulk fan, but, I will not ignore the way his powers work. This in no way indicates that I do not like the character. I just can't make him into something that he simply isn't. The writers have gone through gauntlets to emphasize that the Hulk has weaknesses.

Before the Green Scar hit shelves, the Hulk has never been as powerful as this. Once it was over, they did nearly everything short of a retcon to bury this persona. They turned him dumb again, got him shot in the head, made him as detached as Mr. Spock (ref. Doc Green) who is too logical to go ape-shit like the Caiera mourning Green Scar did. The writers will not have the Hulk parading about above other characters, because he would be become a plot bullet character, and they would have no use for him in team scenarios.

What happens to plot bullet characters guys? What happened to Korvak? Where is Death Seed Sentry? How often is Thanos used? Why isn't Galactus used more often than he is? Why did the Dark Phoenix meet her end? Why isn't the World Breaking Green Scar still running around turning Herald level characters to dust? Why am I bringing this up, and what is my point?

They can't use a character, that can take a hit from Gladiator without flinching. he would outshine everyone's favorite character, and render them irrelevant. After all, do you see the World breaker being hindered by Proxima Midnight?

My stance.

We already have a mod ruling on Hulks strength. Quit trolling boys

Just to put this out there Herald strength levels vary.

Stoic wins easily.

I think this needs to be moved to the battlezone section. Are you down Stoic? 5 posts each, same judges.

Originally posted by carver9
I think this needs to be moved to the battlezone section. Are you down Stoic? 5 posts each, same judges.

I think I gave my stance, and that I don't have any more to
state on the subject to be honest Carver. We can agree to disagree
There is also the judges that you brought into this that need to give
their opinion of it. I'm done after this.

Originally posted by carver9
This thread is in reference to a back and forth argument between Stoic and myself. My argument is to prove that Hulk strength starts at High Herald and Stoic argument is to prove that Hulk doesn't start anywhere close to that. What i am going to do is post comments from the thread in question and have judges reply on either of our stance. If Hulk starts at the strength i stated or if he starts below High Herald level...to the point that he could get overwhelmed by a Herald during the Onset of the battle.

Stoic then states that Hulk strength ramps up every 5 minutes (will post that soon) and his base, basically the onset of his strength isn't enough to challenge a High Herald. So let's begin.

The voters are:

Darksaint
Riv
Bently

Replies are on the way. People are free to post since this isn't a battlezone but please do not derail the thread. Bada, please stay on board because I'm sure I would probably need you to delete some posts. Moved. We have a battlezone for these things.

But your entire argument circles around Hulk not dominating someone from the onset because he's stronger. Depending on the person, you'll probably have an argument but in the case of your argument, you dont.

In this same comic, Kurse was stated as being 4 times stronger than Thor and Thor still had the durability to weather Kurse blows and had the advantage at one point during the fight.

Originally posted by carver9
Thor vs Kurse.

It even states Kurse is 4 times stronger than Thor in thus fight and Thor not only withstands a beating from him, he stalemates in a contest of strength.

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsKurse05486.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsKurse06.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsKurse07.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsKurse08488.jpg.html
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsKurse09.jpg.html

This goes against Stoic entire argument. Wait, Kurse is low Herald in strength (lol).

You're not looking at damage soak/durability of said opponents, you are looking Primarily at strength. That huge post you wrote didn't have one scan proving your point...not one. You don't have anything except your blank thoughts.

Originally posted by Badabing
Moved. We have a battlezone for these things.

My bad.

Originally posted by carver9
But your entire argument circles around Hulk not dominating someone from the onset because he's stronger. Depending on the person, you'll probably have an argument but in the case of your argument, you dont.

In this same comic, Kurse was stated as being 4 times stronger than Thor and Thor still had the durability to weather Kurse blows and had the advantage at one point during the fight.



You're not looking at damage soak/durability of said opponents, you are looking Primarily at strength. That huge post you wrote didn't have one scan proving your point...not one. You don't have anything except your blank thoughts.

What did I tell you Carver? I gave you my statement, which is what you wanted. You didn't like it, so you want to drag it out longer. Do you think by resorting to this type of behavior, I will somehow make me change my stance on things? This is my stance.

Originally posted by Stoic
SORRY FOR THE TYPOS AHEAD OF TIME.

Below is an emboldened and simplified version of how the Hulk's power/s work. There has been more detailed references of how they work, but this is all that I could retrieve online.

Hulk

The Hulk possesses the potential for limitless physical strength depending directly on his emotional state, particularly his anger. This has been reflected in the repeated comment, "The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets." The cosmically-powerful entity known as the Beyonder once analyzed the Hulk's physiology, and claimed that the Hulk's potential strength had" no finite element inside. Hulk's strength has been depicted as sometimes limited by Banner's subconscious influence; when Jean Grey psionically "shut Banner off", Hulk became strong enough to overpower and destroy the physical form of the villain Onslaught.

If the current Hulk on average begins off at High Herald levels of strength, and he gains strength as depicted by the way that his power actually works, how in the world would a mid - high herald character ever give him any form of resistance? Wouldn't he immediately over-shadow an opponent of this level? There was only one version of the Hulk that was able to consistently walk around in a calm state with high herald strength, and that was the Green Scar incarnation of the Hulk, who was able to boost up his strength by consciously willing himself to become stronger. the Savage Hulk did not possess the fine control over his emotions to do this. This was indirectly stated during the Planet hulk storyline, when he was taught how to meditate and consciously raise his physical stats.

Do we ignore that the Hulk grows stronger as time passes, and he becomes more excited to suit our view of the character sometimes. Or is the "madder he gets the stronger he gets" remain in effect as a constant?

Other than that, there were a very limited amount of times that he was able to raise his level of strength nearly as fast as the Green Scar version of the character could. War Hulk was one, and when Jean Grey buried or bound up the Banner portion of his psyche when he had his conflict with Onslaught was two. These are the only times that I can recall the Hulk breaking past the High Herald strength level before 5 minutes had elapsed.

With War Hulk he is rigged with Celestial technology, which allows him to tap into his power more efficiently than he was able to do previous to this story. Even here we see that it takes him time to ramp up, as the Juggernaut pushes him through a stretch of desert until he gains enough strength to slow Cain down to a near stop.

If we look at the characters that actually have High herald level strength like the Sentry did prior to his death, we see that a normal Savage hulk does not actually begin off at that level of strength.

When we look at Rulk, and how he was able to easily beat the Savage Hulk on more than one occasion, but then look at how the Green Scar was able to defeat him handily, we actually see that the Savage Hulk is not on this level of power when referring to his initial strength, and where it begins at the onset of combat.

When Thor fought Rulk during round 2, the Savage Hulk was there with him, and Rulk began to have his way with the Savage hulk, and would have beaten him again. Thor jumps in, and it was because of Thor, that the Hulk wasn't beaten down once again.

The Merged version of the Hulk was stated to have a base strength level greater than the Savage Hulk, and yet he was challenged by Wonder Man. The Merged Hulk fought a weakened Thor in the Antarctic, and he was unable to show that he was actually superior to Thor. Some say Thor won, some say the hulk won. I call it a draw. The Merged Hulk had Mid - High Herald strength.

PIS or not PIS
This is not me low balling the Hulk. It is my way of making heads or tails of the Hulk being KO'd by Spider Man, and Captain America. My view is that he was on a far weaker level than average, which allowed for him to be KO'd by these guys.

This again is not me low balling, but trying to make sense of how something like that could happen before throwing the PIS card out there. My only other thought of it, was that it was PIS, because neither of these two can hit harder than the guys that have failed to KO the Hulk in the past. Ignoring this, and saying that I am low balling without believing my claim will be on your head. I just made my thoughts known on the subject.

The reason why I would view Spider Man, or someone of his caliber KOing Thor, Firelord or any other character of this stature as PIS, while leaving the poor Hulk out in the rain, is because they have a constant level of strength, and durability. The Hulk does not. The Hulk does not have a static level of strength, but his strength, and other stats are dynamic.

The Madder I get, t stronger I become phenomena
This is a psychological statement, and to me this means that the transference of power begins with Banner in his human form. The level that the Savage Hulk begins at, depends directly on the stimuli that causes Banner (Human form) to change into the Hulk (Super irritated form).

For instance; if Banner in his human form is at the dentist, and suddenly gets the frights from a needle that he knows will be stuck into the cavity in his mouth, and changes into the Hulk due to his self induced panic, he may not come in as strong as he would, if he saw a Plane falling out of the sky, and needed to save his wife from dying. This concerns his initial transformation.

Anyone that has been on this site for long enough, knows that i am a Hulk fan, but, I will not ignore the way his powers work. This in no way indicates that I do not like the character. I just can't make him into something that he simply isn't. The writers have gone through gauntlets to emphasize that the Hulk has weaknesses.

Before the Green Scar hit shelves, the Hulk has never been as powerful as this. Once it was over, they did nearly everything short of a retcon to bury this persona. They turned him dumb again, got him shot in the head, made him as detached as Mr. Spock (ref. Doc Green) who is too logical to go ape-shit like the Caiera mourning Green Scar did. The writers will not have the Hulk parading about above other characters, because he would be become a plot bullet character, and they would have no use for him in team scenarios.

What happens to plot bullet characters guys? What happened to Korvak? Where is Death Seed Sentry? How often is Thanos used? Why isn't Galactus used more often than he is? Why did the Dark Phoenix meet her end? Why isn't the World Breaking Green Scar still running around turning Herald level characters to dust? Why am I bringing this up, and what is my point?

They can't use a character, that can take a hit from Gladiator without flinching. he would outshine everyone's favorite character, and render them irrelevant. After all, do you see the World breaker being hindered by Proxima Midnight?

My stance.

Originally posted by carver9
But your entire argument circles around Hulk not dominating someone from the onset because he's stronger. Depending on the person, you'll probably have an argument but in the case of your argument, you dont.

In this same comic, Kurse was stated as being 4 times stronger than Thor and Thor still had the durability to weather Kurse blows and had the advantage at one point during the fight.



You're not looking at damage soak/durability of said opponents, you are looking Primarily at strength. That huge post you wrote didn't have one scan proving your point...not one. You don't have anything except your blank thoughts.

using Thor vs Kurse is wrong, because for one Thor is a better fighter than the Hulk in terms of the technical soundness of his martial skills. you will notice how Thor lessens the impacts of Kurse's haymaker, tuning it into a glancing blow, instead of taking the full impact of it. That's besides the point. You will never have me chasing after the pony Carver in pursuit of the irrelevant. Why not talk about Spawn, when the real topic is the way that the Hulk's powers work?

Also my wife is sitting here, about to beat me into a bruise. I'm really busy. She gets stronger as time goes on. so I have to say goodbye for now. Well the truth is that I stated my opinion of the way that the Hulk's power/s actually work, and don't want to add anymore to this. Do with it what you will.

More proof that a calm Hulk is High Herald in strength.

First I want to post the words of Doc Green. He states in this scan that his mind has caught up with his body which means he still retains the power of Indestructible Hulk, he is just smarter.

http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/carver9/media/Screenshot_2014-08-13-12-52-08_zpsc27c936c.png.html

Doc Green snatch Ultron arm completely off. Adamantium arm...while at a calm state.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19704414/14.jpg.html

Well, Stoic is probably thinking that Hulk's base is when he first transform...still doesn't help his argument because here, Hulk is at the beginning of his transformation...transformed right in Thor arms and still had enough strength to take Thor out in 3 hits ending with Thor claiming Hulk as one of the strongest beings he's ever faced.

http://s226.photobucket.com/user/HulkFights/media-full/Vs%20Thor/Fight%205/1.jpg.html
http://s226.photobucket.com/user/HulkFights/media/Vs%20Thor/Fight%205/2.jpg.html
http://s226.photobucket.com/user/HulkFights/media-full/Vs%20Thor/Fight%205/3.jpg.html

Originally posted by Stoic
What did I tell you Carver? I gave you my statement, which is what you wanted. You didn't like it, so you want to drag it out longer. Do you think by resorting to this type of behavior, I will somehow make me change my stance on things? This is my stance.





using Thor vs Kurse is wrong, because for one Thor is a better fighter than the Hulk in terms of the technical soundness of his martial skills. you will notice how Thor lessens the impacts of Kurse's haymaker, tuning it into a glancing blow, instead of taking the full impact of it. That's besides the point. You will never have me chasing after the pony Carver in pursuit of the irrelevant. Why not talk about Spawn, when the real topic is the way that the Hulk's powers work?

Also my wife is sitting here, about to beat me into a bruise. I'm really busy. She gets stronger as time goes on. so I have to say goodbye for now. Well the truth is that I stated my opinion of the way that the Hulk's power/s actually work, and don't want to add anymore to this. Do with it what you will.

Thanks for your opinion. Not trying to get in the way of your family...just want thus settled. I do want to point out one thing, the reason Rulk was able to beat Savage Hulk was due to his Absorption powers. It didn't work on WWH because that version of Hulk was in complete control of his abilities. There was no absorbing him. Even during Savage Hulk angriest Rulk was able to stomp him because he fed off of Savage energy...at one pint he drained him all the way down to Banner. This doesn't include Rulk stomping Odin Force Thor as well.

I'm done...let's see what the judges think. Since you're not adding more to this topic then there's no need for me to derail it. Thanks for participating.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
So bait thread?
Seriously?
Not even close.

Bearing in mind that i'm more than willing to admit Hulk can be out powered, and (i'd like to think) on good terms with both posters, i have to back Carver here.

I back Stoic here. Bu also back carver. I will explain my reasonings.

We all know he has dynamic strength. The madder her gets, yadda yadda. On one end of the extreme, we have weak, puny Banner, and on the other end, the WorldBreaker.

It ISN'T a binary, one minute he's the Hulk, then boom, he's WWH, then boom, he's WBH. It's a spectrum - with a gradient. This spectrum can be crossed EXTREMELY quickly (as at the end of WWH, after the Sentry fight) and it can be crossed slowly (any other times, when Gray Hulk or whatever was KOed before he becomes WBH).

This means that, of course, Gray Hulk can sometimes have feats way above Savage/Mindless Hulk (e.g. the asteroid feat), because it isn't a binary thing (either/or).

Unlike other characters, Hulk has never had an external powerup (barring Celestial tech, of course). His power has been internal, and is a proudct of his own rage. Was he powered up during WWH/WBH? Yes, but it wasn't because he had been shot by a new serum or whatever, he had just become angrier. Gray Hulk could have replicated the feats, had he become that angry. Doc Green could etc.

What does all this rambling mean? Stoic is right - the Hulk has, on occasion, needed to ramp up to this High Herald level. To put a time frame on it, however (30 minutes? 5 minutes?) isn't right.

But wait, carver is also right - he has scans of a 'calm' Hulk (which I think is the wrong term - it should be a sadistic Hulk) being way stronger and starting out at HH level. This is due to the spectrum I spoke of earlier - and with the Hulk having as many appearances as he does, cherry picking and finding a scan where he DOES have HH level strength at the start should be easy.

Ultimately, however, in the forum, we have the full capacity rule. So the Hulk would be fighting at the best of his abilities, not powered up, not powered down. As Stoic said,


So, in the context of this forum fights, if I had to pick an overall winner, it's carver.

When I finish typing this I am going to ponder submitting it.

I was really going to let it go, even though I know that Carver is wrong on several levels. He has tried to make people see the Hulk as one dimensional as possible, so that he can continue doing what he does best. Misrepresent things, and if he is caught doing so, will play dumb. He did it recently with the latest Abomination vs The Hulk fight, which has me questioning it as a canon source, because of the creative team actually handling the story. My point? He decided to leave out the beginning of the fight. and only show people what he wanted to show them so that they would never question that the Hulk actually gains strength later on during the battle.

I'm not trying to offend the people chosen as judges here, but I wouldn't have chosen you guys to be honest... Nor was I ever given a choice of who would be the judges. Well Darksaint may have been one of the judges, but my choice would have been -Pr-, Bada, Digi, and or Darksaint. Riv did not give enough thought into his decision, and as far as I am concerned, the judgment rendered by either could have been rigged via PM. In other words the only person that seemed to be somewhat unbiased on his judgement was Darksaint. No offense Riv. I'm just being painfully blunt.

Look at what this means to agree with Carver just because he decided to cherry pick scans as his best argument. What you will have is a Hulk that begins off at the high extreme of the spectrum without understanding the full gravity of your decision. I want you to look at something concrete without relying on the pretty pictures that Carver would have you cater to.

The Hulk's Characteristics

Height: 5' 9 1/2" (Banner), 7'-8' (Savage Hulk), 6'6" (Gray Hulk/Joe Fixit), 7'6" (Merged Hulk), 8'8" (Green Scar).

Weight: 145 lbs (Banner), 1,040 lbs-1,400 lbs (Savage Hulk), 900 lbs (Joe Fixit), 1,150 lbs (Merged Hulk), 2,400 lbs (Green Scar)
Hair Color: Brown (Banner), Green (Green Hulk), Black (Joe Fixit/Gray Hulk)

Eyes Color: Brown (Banner), Black/Grey (Gray Hulk/Joe Fixit), Green (Green Hulk/Green Scar)

Let's come to a logical understanding here

Look at the weight variances for a moment. Look specifically at the Green Scars weight in comparison to the other Hulk's involved. This is something that Peter David began showing the reader, years ago about how much stronger the Savage Hulk was compared to his weaker incarnation the Grey Hulk. Now look back to the Green Scar using the same logic. What do you see?

Siding with Carver would mean that the Abomination's strength level was closer to the low Trans tier than the mid - high Herald tier in terms of strength. He would even try to twist things by throwing in that I am not accounting for durability. However I did state that all of the Hulk's stats increase as he ramps up. I give you facts, he gives you cheery picked scans, and if you knew nothing about the characters outside of what you read in their respect sections, it is easy to be fooled by this type of ploy. Carver has only shown the Hulk's best, but never once has he shown both sides of the spectrum.

Carver would have you pay attention to Thor, when we are debating how the Hulk's powers work. You can't compare Thor to the Hulk, because they don't fight the same way. Thor is a trained warrior, the Hulk is a super nerd that has had no prior combat training, and if he was limited to being as strong as Captain America, and they had the same agility, Captain America would wipe the floor with him. Are you starting to get the point?

Agreeing with Carver will come back to bite us all in the ass. Why? Because that would mean that if the Hulk truly began with high herald strength on average, guys with static High Herald strength would never be able to defeat him in a slug fest. YOU CAN NOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Why? Look at this for a moment, and understand the full gravity of what Carver's view means when using the Hulk in a forum match.

Vast Superhuman Strength

Hulk is physically one of the strongest and most powerful beings in the Marvel Universe. His limitless strength usually depends on his emotions, especially his rage. Possessed with infinite gamma rays/energies from every dimension/universe in existence, the Hulk is in the Class 100 ton strength range, meaning that he can easily lift over the 100 ton limit. The Hulk has the potential to truly be "The strongest one there is".

However, this may vary depending on the incarnation/persona, and also how angry the Hulk is at a certain point. It is well known that the angrier the Hulk become, the stronger and powerful he becomes. It is a well known fact that Bruce Banner has always suppressed the Hulk and his power, if only out of fear of harming others... especially those that both Banner and Hulk hold dear. But there has been a few times that neither Banner or Hulk could control their fury, thus the results have been quite devastating to say the least.

Carver would have people believe that the Hulk is currently walking around at his WW Hulk levels, without the fuel to allow him to do so. What fuel am I talking about? His constant rage. Look again at the difference between the Green Scars weight is compared to the Savage Hulk's. What has the Hulk currently done, that he was unable to do as the Savage Hulk? Do I need scans to prove that the Hulk ramps up as he grows more excited? I am debating with logic, Carver brings in cherry picked scans, that often show half of the story, or the end of the story so that you aren't actually seeing the Hulk's gains. I am coming in at a broader angle. Again, I will ask you guys the same question. If the Hulk begins a battle with high Herald strength the moment that he changes from Banner to the Hulk, he would never lose a slug fest with a character that tops out at mid - high Herald strength for long. After all, he gains strength at astronomical levels. I ask you to consider the logic behind this, before considering the lack thereof.

I really didn't think that it would have taken anyone long to come around to this realization, or that I would have had to explain it to the point of having sore fingertips. Maybe I'm among the minority that actually sees this?

I am pondering submitting this.

Originally posted by carver9
More proof that a calm Hulk is High Herald in strength.

First I want to post the words of Doc Green. He states in this scan that his mind has caught up with his body which means he still retains the power of Indestructible Hulk, he is just smarter.

http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/carver9/media/Screenshot_2014-08-13-12-52-08_zpsc27c936c.png.html

Doc Green snatch Ultron arm completely off. Adamantium arm...while at a calm state.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19704414/14.jpg.html

Well, Stoic is probably thinking that Hulk's base is when he first transform...still doesn't help his argument because here, Hulk is at the beginning of his transformation...transformed right in Thor arms and still had enough strength to take Thor out in 3 hits ending with Thor claiming Hulk as one of the strongest beings he's ever faced.

http://s226.photobucket.com/user/HulkFights/media-full/Vs%20Thor/Fight%205/1.jpg.html
http://s226.photobucket.com/user/HulkFights/media/Vs%20Thor/Fight%205/2.jpg.html
http://s226.photobucket.com/user/HulkFights/media-full/Vs%20Thor/Fight%205/3.jpg.html

Another misrepresentation on Carver's part. Why not leave out the entire fight, and try to pull the wool over peoples eyes. Thor was surprised for one, and he wasn't taken out for two. he got bloodied, but immediately calls for his hammer, and rises from the ground. Either You have a very difficult time comprehending what you read, and see, or you are the most deceitful person on the forum, parading around like Mr. Honesty.

And the Doc green thing? Seriously, he was injected with that same serum that he was, when Sunbro kicked his butt. Carver please.

Ultron was not in the chassis Carver. There was no resistance. Just more misrepresentations.

Originally posted by Stoic

Carver would have people believe that the Hulk is currently walking around at his WW Hulk levels, without the fuel to allow him to do so. What fuel am I talking about? His constant rage. Look again at the difference between the Green Scars weight is compared to the Savage Hulk's. What has the Hulk currently done, that he was unable to do as the Savage Hulk? Do I need scans to prove that the Hulk ramps up as he grows more excited? I am debating with logic, Carver brings in cherry picked scans, that often show half of the story, or the end of the story so that you aren't actually seeing the Hulk's gains. I am coming in at a broader angle. Again, I will ask you guys the same question. If the Hulk begins a battle with high Herald strength the moment that he changes from Banner to the Hulk, he would never lose a slug fest with a character that tops out at mid - high Herald strength for long. After all, he gains strength at astronomical levels. I ask you to consider the logic behind this, before considering the lack thereof.

I completely understand your point - which is why we have the distinctions of WBH, WWH, Savage etc.

But because of the full capacity rule, and the sheer number of appearances of the Hulk, it would be SO easy to cherry pick scans and say, well, that's what he is at that fight.

The general rule, of course, holds true for the opponents. So we go for a high level, without going crazy with outliers - and I would've thought outliers should be easy to get a hold of.

Gray Hulk throwing that pyramid, for example - what other high average strength feats does he have? The famous asteroid one, and then?

I mean, if Abhi came in and just used the extreme high end showings of Superman, everyone would be shouting him down. If I came in and used Flash, people would be crying. So IF carver wants to use outliers (not high end averages) then the opponents can do the same.

Despite this, however, we need to be careful about the Hulk's ramping up. You're right, stoic, in that it depends on why he is fighting - beating up the baddie of the week vs taking revenge on the Illuminati, for example. Against most opponents, however, his ramping is fast enough that it doesn't matter, IMHO, if he starts at high herald or mid herald or whatever. Certainly, if his opponent is tough and manages to land a good solid punch on him, he will ramp up pretty quickly that it becomes moot.

IOW, the ramping only matters if he's fighting someone completely out of his weight class who can KO him with 1 punch (i.e. Superman :evil

This "expotential ramping up" is a myth that's gotten out of hand the last years.

The incidents of him needing to build up over time for outnumber the incidents where he's skyrocketed past high herald (which has only happened like a handful of times...).

Originally posted by Stoic
Another misrepresentation on Carver's part. Why not leave out the entire fight, and try to pull the wool over peoples eyes. Thor was surprised for one, and he wasn't taken out for two. he got bloodied, but immediately calls for his hammer, and rises from the ground. Either You have a very difficult time comprehending what you read, and see, or you are the most deceitful person on the forum, parading around like Mr. Honesty.

And the Doc green thing? Seriously, he was injected with that same serum that he was, when Sunbro kicked his butt. Carver please.

Ultron was not in the chassis Carver. There was no resistance. Just more misrepresentations.



That's why I asked for judges because your eyes are terrible. Leave it to them because you see what you want. That long post you wrote doesn't fly here. You have as of yet to provide a single scan proving your point, not one. I told you who the judges were before making this thread and you said "let the judges decide", you didn't have a problem with them until they disagreed with your stance. Anyone viewing this thread would disagree with you because you didn't provide any evidence. You hid away from evidence provided to you and you rant on about the same thing. Everything I brought up, I posted a scan. I posted a scan of Grey Hulk turning into Green mode with rage. I posted a scan proving that Grey has High Herald strength. I posted a scan of Savage Hulk at his base performing High Herald fts. I countered your lame argument by posting a scan of a being 4 times stronger than Thor being stalemated by Thor. Let's put it like this, I provided evidence while you did nothing but rant on about what or where you think his strength should be at. You didn't provide evidence because there is none.

Also, lol, in the scan Thor painfully, slowly, rose up after 3 hits and it took time for that to happen. Then what seals the deal is what Thor said after those 3 hits. Open your eyes. You're wrong and you lost. Next time you do a battle zone, provide evidence instead of your opinion. People don't care about that, they want proof. I could've continued to post scans of Hulk starting off strength but what's the point? You didn't provide anything so there was no need for me to provide or post anymore evidence as well.

You brought up low showings to back your claims. Do you honestly believe anyone would pay attention to that? Any respectable debaters. No. Especially if the opposing character went through the same thing. Unless you think Cap is above King Thor.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/King%20Thor/KingThor3.jpg

Wait, let me guess, things like this only counts for Savage Hulk. I'm pretty sure others could've made better arguments but you didn't. All those scans you provided backing your claims (lol) just wasn't enough.

By the way, after telling Stoic who the judges were, he had no problem with it. Read his response below, he wanted them to judge in the thread we posted in. He only has a problem now because...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&action=showpost&postid=14942736#14942736

Thanks again to the judges for your response and taking the time to read all of this.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I completely understand your point - which is why we have the distinctions of WBH, WWH, Savage etc.

But because of the full capacity rule, and the sheer number of appearances of the Hulk, it would be SO easy to cherry pick scans and say, well, that's what he is at that fight.

The general rule, of course, holds true for the opponents. So we go for a high level, without going crazy with outliers - and I would've thought outliers should be easy to get a hold of.

Gray Hulk throwing that pyramid, for example - what other high average strength feats does he have? The famous asteroid one, and then?

I mean, if Abhi came in and just used the extreme high end showings of Superman, everyone would be shouting him down. If I came in and used Flash, people would be crying. So IF carver wants to use outliers (not high end averages) then the opponents can do the same.

Despite this, however, we need to be careful about the Hulk's ramping up. You're right, stoic, in that it depends on why he is fighting - beating up the baddie of the week vs taking revenge on the Illuminati, for example. Against most opponents, however, his ramping is fast enough that it doesn't matter, IMHO, if he starts at high herald or mid herald or whatever. Certainly, if his opponent is tough and manages to land a good solid punch on him, he will ramp up pretty quickly that it becomes moot.

IOW, the ramping only matters if he's fighting someone completely out of his weight class who can KO him with 1 punch (i.e. Superman :evil

Currently, the Hulk is not at WW Hulk levels, and it has been accepted that WW Hulk walks around at high herald strength levels. Doc Green injected himself with a serum so that he never can reach those levels, because he is too detached to reach those levels. Doc Green happens after the Sun Gad battle, or he would still be walking around speaking baby talk.

There is a high capacity rule, which I do understand, but the pyramid feat isn't that high. look at what a high Herald can do. How would you compare that little pyramid to the weight of a state? I'm talking about the Blue Marvel as you have certainly guessed. He wasn't even straining when he completed that feat. I understand that there are people out there that debate high end feats while leaving out averages, but we debate mainly using averages. The Hulk is also a wild card type of characters, and can only be compared with a like character that has the ability to amplify their stats.

When the Hulk is in a forum match, it should always be stated that he he been angry for a period of time, because he does not start off at high herald strength. If Superman defines the upper limits of high Herald strength from the onset of combat without a sun amplification, would anyone place the current Hulk at that same level at the onset of combat?

When debating a character, one has to keep that characters limits in mind. The writers have always placed a hard limit on the Hulk's strength, so that he doesn't actually get out of hand, and become a plot bullet character. his limits are buried in his initial transformation, his anger level in his human state, and his character who happens to be a hero, and not a homicidal villain. if he were evil he would be all that he could be, but we see how the writers will not allow for this to happen. WW Hulk was based on this very same dilemma. Yes or No?

This debate was about how the Hulk's powers work. I don't see how I am wrong, or attempting to fool anyone into believing my points concerning his limitations. He clearly has them. As for the general rule of full capacity. We are speaking of the character under optimal conditions, which does not mean rare shots where they are shown bench pressing Jupiter. This entire debate also occurred because I did not believe that the Hulk could ramp up fast enough to defeat both a weaponless Thor, and Beta Ray Bill in combat. Which became a feat war. Both Thor, and bill have some pretty high feats, and this is something that Carver, and myself had to simply agree to disagree on. I agreed that if they took too long to take him out that he would win the battle. What I should have said was stomp on them, but if they went in as ferociously as they have in their best fights, they would stomp him before he had the ability to become a threat to them.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I completely understand your point - which is why we have the distinctions of WBH, WWH, Savage etc.

But because of the full capacity rule, and the sheer number of appearances of the Hulk, it would be SO easy to cherry pick scans and say, well, that's what he is at that fight.

The general rule, of course, holds true for the opponents. So we go for a high level, without going crazy with outliers - and I would've thought outliers should be easy to get a hold of.

Gray Hulk throwing that pyramid, for example - what other high average strength feats does he have? The famous asteroid one, and then?

I mean, if Abhi came in and just used the extreme high end showings of Superman, everyone would be shouting him down. If I came in and used Flash, people would be crying. So IF carver wants to use outliers (not high end averages) then the opponents can do the same.

Despite this, however, we need to be careful about the Hulk's ramping up. You're right, stoic, in that it depends on why he is fighting - beating up the baddie of the week vs taking revenge on the Illuminati, for example. Against most opponents, however, his ramping is fast enough that it doesn't matter, IMHO, if he starts at high herald or mid herald or whatever. Certainly, if his opponent is tough and manages to land a good solid punch on him, he will ramp up pretty quickly that it becomes moot.

IOW, the ramping only matters if he's fighting someone completely out of his weight class who can KO him with 1 punch (i.e. Superman :evil

Good point.

Which is shown here...

"The more he fights, the powerful he grows".

http://s226.photobucket.com/user/HulkFights/media-full/Vs%20Thor/Fight%203/12.jpg.html

Originally posted by Stoic
Currently, the Hulk is not at WW Hulk levels, and it has been accepted that WW Hulk walks around at high herald strength levels. Doc Green injected himself with a serum so that he never can reach those levels, because he is too detached to reach those levels. Doc Green happens after the Sun Gad battle, or he would still be walking around speaking baby talk.

There is a high capacity rule, which I do understand, but the pyramid feat isn't that high. look at what a high Herald can do. How would you compare that little pyramid to the weight of a state? I'm talking about the Blue Marvel as you have certainly guessed. He wasn't even straining when he completed that feat. I understand that there are people out there that debate high end feats while leaving out averages, but we debate mainly using averages. The Hulk is also a wild card type of characters, and can only be compared with a like character that has the ability to amplify their stats.

When the Hulk is in a forum match, it should always be stated that he he been angry for a period of time, because he does not start off at high herald strength. If Superman defines the upper limits of high Herald strength from the onset of combat without a sun amplification, would anyone place the current Hulk at that same level at the onset of combat?

When debating a character, one has to keep that characters limits in mind. The writers have always placed a hard limit on the Hulk's strength, so that he doesn't actually get out of hand, and become a plot bullet character. his limits are buried in his initial transformation, his anger level in his human state, and his character who happens to be a hero, and not a homicidal villain. if he were evil he would be all that he could be, but we see how the writers will not allow for this to happen. WW Hulk was based on this very same dilemma. Yes or No?

This debate was about how the Hulk's powers work. I don't see how I am wrong, or attempting to fool anyone into believing my points concerning his limitations. He clearly has them. As for the general rule of full capacity. We are speaking of the character under optimal conditions, which does not mean rare shots where they are shown bench pressing Jupiter. This entire debate also occurred because I did not believe that the Hulk could ramp up fast enough to defeat both a weaponless Thor, and Beta Ray Bill in combat. Which became a feat war. Both Thor, and bill have some pretty high feats, and this is something that Carver, and myself had to simply agree to disagree on. I agreed that if they took too long to take him out that he would win the battle. What I should have said was stomp on them, but if they went in as ferociously as they have in their best fights, they would stomp him before he had the ability to become a threat to them.



You don't know what you are talking about. Doc Green is here because Ironman put a super computer into Banners head because he was brain damaged after being shot in the head. You do not keep up with the Hulk and know nothing of the character. Just stop.

Originally posted by carver9


That's why I asked for judges because your eyes are terrible. Leave it to them because you see what you want. That long post you wrote doesn't fly here. You have as of yet to provide a single scan proving your point, not one. I told you who the judges were before making this thread and you said "let the judges decide", you didn't have a problem with them until they disagreed with your stance. Anyone viewing this thread would disagree with you because you didn't provide any evidence. You hid away from evidence provided to you and you rant on about the same thing. Everything I brought up, I posted a scan. I posted a scan of Grey Hulk turning into Green mode with rage. I posted a scan proving that Grey has High Herald strength. I posted a scan of Savage Hulk at his base performing High Herald fts. I countered your lame argument by posting a scan of a being 4 times stronger than Thor being stalemated by Thor. Let's put it like this, I provided evidence while you did nothing but rant on about what or where you think his strength should be at. You didn't provide evidence because there is none.

Also, lol, in the scan Thor painfully, slowly, rose up after 3 hits and it took time for that to happen. Then what seals the deal is what Thor said after those 3 hits. Open your eyes. You're wrong and you lost. Next time you do a battle zone, provide evidence instead of your opinion. People don't care about that, they want proof. I could've continued to post scans of Hulk starting off strength but what's the point? You didn't provide anything so there was no need for me to provide or post anymore evidence as well.

You brought up low showings to back your claims. Do you honestly believe anyone would pay attention to that? Any respectable debaters. No. Especially if the opposing character went through the same thing. Unless you think Cap is above King Thor.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/King%20Thor/KingThor3.jpg

Wait, let me guess, things like this only counts for Savage Hulk. I'm pretty sure others could've made better arguments but you didn't. All those scans you provided backing your claims (lol) just wasn't enough.

By the way, after telling Stoic who the judges were, he had no problem with it. Read his response below, he wanted them to judge in the thread we posted in. He only has a problem now because...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&action=showpost&postid=14942736#14942736

Thanks again to the judges for your response and taking the time to read all of this.

Why would I need scans Carver? You use them to BS people into seeing something that's often out of context. just look at what you're doing again. That same Thor effortlessly beat the mess out of the Hulk, and the thing. Did you bother to show those scans? of course not because you think that everyone are idiots. Even the Thor vs hulk scans that you used were misrepresentations brought on by a lack of simple reasoning, and understanding. how many times have people told you this? Do you think that they were joking with you or something? The scans that you use hurt your debates more than they help them, and it's something that you should take into consideration, but you won't because you're too hard headed, and you think that you're right while being wrong. just look at the scans that you posted, and back them up with what actually happened in term of the totality of the context surrounding them. Then you post Captain America kicking King Thor down. It's just pathetic Carver.

By the way, lifting a Pyramid is a High Herald ft. Not only lifting it but tossing it. Example...Superman is by far one of the strongest Heralds minus Hulk and he didn't easily lift a Pyramid like it's a cake walk per Stoic. Grey actually snatched one off the ground and threw it like a baseball.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/121691/2966738-9386260463-94417.jpg

Originally posted by carver9


You don't know what you are talking about. Doc Green is here because Ironman put a super computer into Banners head because he was brain damaged after being shot in the head. You do not keep up with the Hulk and know nothing of the character. Just stop.

He has the extremis in his brain, but he also has that serum in him that was injected into him as well. Carver. Do you ever think before you type out the things that you do? What happened before the Sun God battle? I may have been poorly written, but that's not my fault, however it is still canon. Don't say stupid things.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why would I need scans Carver? You use them to BS people into seeing something that's often out of context. just look at what you're doing again. That same Thor effortlessly beat the mess out of the Hulk, and the thing. Did you bother to show those scans? of course not because you think that everyone are idiots. Even the Thor vs hulk scans that you used were misrepresentations brought on by a lack of simple reasoning, and understanding. how many times have people told you this? Do you think that they were joking with you or something? The scans that you use hurt your debates more than they help them, and it's something that you should take into consideration, but you won't because you're too hard headed, and you think that you're right while being wrong. just look at the scans that you posted, and back them up with what actually happened in term of the totality of the context surrounding them. Then you post Captain America kicking King Thor down. It's just pathetic Carver.

Lol... misrepresenting? Yeah right. Nothing was misrepresenting about my scans and if you are debating a topic and you feel confident in what you are saying PROVIDE PROOF. Here's an example...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t598461.html

Everything these guys mentioned, they brought a scan backing up their claims. It's no off the top of my head debating here. All evidence. Learn from it before debating against a character.

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, lifting a Pyramid is a High Herald ft. Not only lifting it but tossing it. Example...Superman is by far one of the strongest Heralds minus Hulk and he didn't easily lift a Pyramid like it's a cake walk per Stoic. Grey actually snatched one off the ground and threw it like a baseball.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/121691/2966738-9386260463-94417.jpg

Are you comparing a real pyramid to the one that was in Vegas? Do you know the disparity between the two in terms of weight? See you're doing it again. You really have to think about these things before you go painting yourself into the corner. i mean seriously, why would I have to even mention this, if you comprehended what you read?

Originally posted by Stoic
He has the extremis in his brain, but he also has that serum in him that was injected into him as well. Carver. Do you ever think before you type out the things that you do? What happened before the Sun God battle? I may have been poorly written, but that's not my fault, however it is still canon. Don't say stupid things.

He doesn't take the serum anymore (lol). He was brain damaged for months, and lost all the serum he had. There is no serum. Hell, the last time he took it was around the Avengers story when he fought Sun God. You see, this is what I'm talking about. You won't admit it but you haven't been keeping up with the Hulk. Hulk has been hospitalized for months. When he got shot in the head, he was knocked out for two weeks. Shield found him and he was with them knocked out for no telling how long. Tony then built Extremis and injected it into his brain. The serum doesn't even last long. I think it last for hours. After that, it burns off. Read some Hulk comics. I have every Hulk book since 2003, you will not win a debate against me. I have stories before then as well but not all of his material. How about this, show us him using the serum before going Doc Green.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... misrepresenting? Yeah right. Nothing was misrepresenting about my scans and if you are debating a topic and you feel confident in what you are saying PROVIDE PROOF. Here's an example...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t598461.html

Everything these guys mentioned, they brought a scan backing up their claims. It's no off the top of my head debating here. All evidence. Learn from it before debating against a character.

What does this have to do with your lies? I'm not telling you something that you don't already know. What you want are scans so that you can't lie about the things that you know, while attempting to play stupid until you actually see what you know. This is your blatant disrespect for people that you deal with. You are literally trying to play people for idiots. not sure why you can;t see this. Anyways, I have better things to do, than deal with deceitful people.

Originally posted by Stoic
Are you comparing a real pyramid to the one that was in Vegas? Do you know the disparity between the two in terms of weight? See you're doing it again. You really have to think about these things before you go painting yourself into the corner. i mean seriously, why would I have to even mention this, if you comprehended what you read?



It was said to be a Pyramid.

Do you have anything proving otherwise that it wasn't as Hollow, etc... as the Pyramid in the scan I posted with Superman? Change your name to denial.

Originally posted by Stoic
What does this have to do with your lies? I'm not telling you something that you don't already know. What you want are scans so that you can't lie about the things that you know, while attempting to play stupid until you actually see what you know. This is your blatant disrespect for people that you deal with. You are literally trying to play people for idiots. not sure why you can;t see this. Anyways, I have better things to do, than deal with deceitful people.

Give up Stoic. The people here read the books of every scan i posted. If you think I lied then oh well. You lost and you have no proof of anything except what you think. Move on. Hulk starts at High Herald strength which still doesn't mean he will drop everyone from the onset of the battle because you have to take durability into consideration as well, along with the fact that even though Hulk is dumb, he still holds back.

Originally posted by carver9
He doesn't take the serum anymore (lol). He was brain damaged for months, and lost all the serum he had. There is no serum. Hell, the last time he took it was around the Avengers story when he fought Sun God. You see, this is what I'm talking about. You won't admit it but you haven't been keeping up with the Hulk. Hulk has been hospitalized for months. When he got shot in the head, he was knocked out for two weeks. Shield found him and he was with them knocked out for no telling how long. Tony then built Extremis and injected it into his brain. The serum doesn't even last long. I think it last for hours. After that, it burns off. Read some Hulk comics. I have every Hulk book since 2003, you will not win a debate against me. I have stories before then as well but not all of his material. How about this, show us him using the serum before going Doc Green.

This I can admit, however wasn't the serum that he took actually small robots that was injected into his brain to give him tiny shocks when he lost control. Also Carver you really need to slow it down when telling me what i have read, and not read. You don't really know anything about me, so keep it straight. I have not read every single Hulk comic, this i admit, but it's been more to the tune of missing 2 or maybe 3 issues that were too boring for me to bother.

Originally posted by carver9
By the way, lifting a Pyramid is a High Herald ft. Not only lifting it but tossing it. Example...Superman is by far one of the strongest Heralds minus Hulk and he didn't easily lift a Pyramid like it's a cake walk per Stoic. Grey actually snatched one off the ground and threw it like a baseball.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/121691/2966738-9386260463-94417.jpg

And this is what I meant by cherrypicking feats.

Are you trying to say pyramids have some special property intrinsic to them, which we can use as a measure of HH strength?

Don't be stupid.

Superman has feats beyond that pyramid, and you know it. Using it as a yardstick to judge strength is idiotic.

Originally posted by Stoic
This I can admit, however wasn't the serum that he took actually small robots that was injected into his brain to give him tiny shocks when he lost control. Also Carver you really need to slow it down when telling me what i have read, and not read. You don't really know anything about me, so keep it straight. I have not read every single Hulk comic, this i admit, but it's been more to the tune of missing 2 or maybe 3 issues that were too boring for me to bother.

No it's a fluid that stimulates the brain.

http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/carver9/media-full//Screenshot_2014-06-25-13-46-15_zps3518d875.png.html

But it also fires electric impulses into the brain.

http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/carver9/media/Screenshot_2014-06-25-13-47-12_zps90a2b7e0.png.html?sort=9&o=134

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And this is what I meant by cherrypicking feats.

Are you trying to say pyramids have some special property intrinsic to them, which we can use as a measure of HH strength?

Don't be stupid.

Superman has feats beyond that pyramid, and you know it. Using it as a yardstick to judge strength is idiotic.

Not what I'm saying but what I am saying that it takes an huge amount of strength to do it. I just used that as an example but not as a norm in a debate like this since Superman does have better.

Originally posted by carver9


It was said to be a Pyramid.

Do you have anything proving otherwise that it wasn't as Hollow, etc... as the Pyramid in the scan I posted with Superman? Change your name to denial.

That pyramid was a modern structure Carver. How can you confuse, an ancient pyramid with a modernized structure? How? Listen let's just drop it, because your level of comprehension just does not jive with me.

Originally posted by carver9
Give up Stoic. The people here read the books of every scan i posted. If you think I lied then oh well. You lost and you have no proof of anything except what you think. Move on. Hulk starts at High Herald strength which still doesn't mean he will drop everyone from the onset of the battle because you have to take durability into consideration as well, along with the fact that even though Hulk is dumb, he still holds back.

Every scan that you brought in were misrepresentations of the truth. none of them held any merit whatsoever. All the scans proved, was that you don't understand what you read. But for once we agree. Lets end this nonsense, because you either can not comprehend what you read, or you attempt to deceive people and think that they are too stupid to see what it is that you are doing.

I would like to see what DarkSaint believes, or anyone at that believes when they look at every single scan that you have presented in this thread. But you're right, it's obvious that we aren't getting anywhere, you continue to ignore logic, and post scans of things that are misrepresented out of context, twisted versions of the truth. Could someone else point this out, or is it just me? I'm done. I didn't lose, but I'm just going to agree to disagree with 98% of everything that you have stated Carver.

Originally posted by Stoic
That pyramid was a modern structure Carver. How can you confuse, an ancient pyramid with a modernized structure? How? Listen let's just drop it, because your level of comprehension just jive with me.



Every scan that you brought in were misrepresentations of the truth. none of them held any merit whatsoever. All the scans proved, was that you don't understand what you read. But for once we agree. Lets end this nonsense, because you either can not comprehend what you read, or you attempt to deceive people and think that they are too stupid to see what it is that you are doing.

I would like to see what DarkSaint believes, or anyone at that believes when they look at every single scan that you have presented in this thread. But you're right, it's obvious that we aren't getting anywhere, you continue to ignore logic, and post scans of things that are misrepresented out of context, twisted versions of the truth. Could someone else point this out, or is it just me? I'm done. I didn't lose, but I'm just going to agree to disagree with 98% of everything that you have stated Carver.

Oooooorrrrr, the scans might not be misrepresented, something might be wrong with your comprehension skills but you fail to see it. It's either or but like you've said, we are done here.

Well let me just ask Darksaint, krisblaze or anyone else that has read the scans that you presented on their merit. Were they misrepresentations of the truth or solid evidence? I mean why didn't Carver show the context of the scans? Was it because he doubted that there are other people that read comics, and not just browse the respect section? Why do you think that people are always telling you about these things Carver? you must think that they're just joking with you. You know what most people think? they think that you're taking them for fools, but it's too much of a trivial thing for them to actually dig into you. Look at how many times -Pr has nearly lost it on you. Oh and since you have to have the last word, like this is some type of kiddie thing, go on ahead knock yourself out.

Originally posted by Stoic
Well let me just ask Darksaint, krisblaze or anyone else that has read the scans that you presented on their merit. Were they misrepresentations of the truth or solid evidence? I mean why didn't Carver show the context of the scans? Was it because he doubted that there are other people that read comics, and not just browse the respect section? Why do you think that people are always telling you about these things Carver? you must think that they're just joking with you. You know what most people think? they think that you're taking them for fools, but it's too much of a trivial thing for them to actually dig into you. Look at how many times -Pr has nearly lost it on you. Oh and since you have to have the last word, like this is some type of kiddie thing, go on ahead knock yourself out.

Krisblaze hates the Hulk so he would have a bias opinion but anyone else, please feel free to point out the misrepresenting. How about you point them out Stoic. What was misrepresenting about my scans?

Uuuummmm, most people are commenting on how you give people abilities that they don't have. You went pages talking about Morg having cosmic awareness and fight at light speed, two things that he has not even shown on panel hut you gave him those abilities because Surfer showed them (WTF). That is how you debate though. That's your debating style. It all revolves around bios and what you think a character should be capable of, ignoring what is shown on panel. It's hard debating with someone like you who don't go by what's shown on panel. Difficult. Then when evidence is shown you ignore it. You ignored every single scan presented to you in this thread saying that it was context involved but never stating what the context is. Then you are saying the Pyramid isn't real. Said Thor know Martial arts in his fight against Kurse and didn't take the full hits. WTF man. How do we get through that shell of yours? Do you have an excuse for everything. That's why I brought judges into it because you're stubborn. With that said, stop responding to me.

Ok, I've read through this thread and should probably give my appreciation in more than one post, because it's difficult to fully explain how this issue is far from binary.

Personally, I don't think "high herald strenght" is one of those terms we could throw around. When does high herald starts and low herald ends? If we were to say for example that Superman at his absolute best was the standard for high herald strenght, there would be next to no heralds able to fit the bill. For me that term is part of the problem when discussing this. It needs to be clarified or put down.

The second problem even if there was a defined strength level that fits the concept of "high herald", it would hardly apply to fights. Because fight are about so much more than just physical strength. Many of the top dogs in the herald levels hold back often and have occasional dynamic strength, their battles are all over the place in that regard. Hulk is the epitome of dynamic strenght, but how come someone like Thing can put up a fight against him on occasion? Well, because Thing also has dynamic strenght. The idea of Hulk overpowering heralds in seconds because of his initial strength being increased is iffy at best, he is the prime example of dynamic growth but he's hardly the only one.

We should really focus in how each side reads the issue. Stoic says that if Hulk really started at a "high level", then he'd squash characters after a short struggle. This is downright false and makes for a dramatic take on the subject that only attemps to make Carver sound absurd. Carver's side is much less constricting, because he doesn't just assume Hulk will overpower everyone, because there are many things other than strenght in the fight. Kris echoed part of the problem a few posts ago: people assume Hulk's strength skyrockets each battle and that barely happens through his whole history.

So right now I think Carver is closer to the truth when it comes to describing Hulk's actual powers. But we really need to redefine and explore the true meaning of "high herald strenght", I don't think anybody thinks Thing has such level of power, but Thing or Namor can hang with Hulk for a period of time. You can be bellow some ideal strenght level and put up a serious fight against a given opponent, specially if you have dymanic strenght to catch up with them. Stoic brings a valid point when he says Hulk can start on a different level, but low enough to be matched by Spider-man or Cap? That's PIS at it's best like it would be PIS for Galactus to be hurt by the Human Torch even hungry.

Those are my two cents.

Great post Bently. To the judges, you all brought great comments in this debate and i thank you for that. Showed that you didn't just choose a side just because...you brought some of your opinions to this as well. Thanks again to the judges and to Stoic for participating.

Basically Carver stealing my shit again

Originally posted by Bentley
Stoic brings a valid point when he says Hulk can start on a different level, but low enough to be matched by Spider-man or Cap? That's PIS at it's best like it would be PIS for Galactus to be hurt by the Human Torch even hungry.

Those are my two cents.
Excellent post Bentlely. As for this part, Stoic seems to easily be able to accept Spidey and Cap beating Hulk but not doing that to Thor.

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
Excellent post Bentlely. As for this part, Stoic seems to easily be able to accept Spidey and Cap beating Hulk but not doing that to Thor.



Don't think he grasp the concept that he is lowballing one character and praising the other.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Basically Carver stealing my shit again

The 2 of you can't exist in the Gamma Nation.

This is clear.

When will you challenge, Carver, to a final showdown?

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Hope stoic destroys carver.
your hope was crushed

This is so painful to read....