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I posted in the Christianity Symbolism thread yesterday about an early church experience.
Got me thinking of God's omnipotence. Googled away, and found a, to me, perfectly valid argument as to why he's not.

He cant please everybody.

How is he going to please you if you never give him any directions, c'mon!

^Haha

Well, we're always tell him to damn things.

Originally posted by riv6672
I posted in the Christianity Symbolism thread yesterday about an early church experience.
Got me thinking of God's omnipotence. Googled away, and found a, to me, perfectly valid argument as to why he's not.

He cant please everybody.

Any god that is a "he" or "she" is not going to be omnipotent in the first place.

How you know? You arent omnipotent.

Originally posted by riv6672
How you know? You arent omnipotent.

And I'm also a "he". The two go together.

So you say. You arent omnipotent.

"God is not your personal genie."
-- Doug Heffernan

Haha, i remember that episode.

Originally posted by riv6672
So you say. You arent omnipotent.

Yes, I am not omnipotent, and I am a he. Don't you see how the two go together?

How would i know i'm not omnipotent.

Originally posted by riv6672
How would i know i'm not omnipotent.

You don't need to be omnipotent to see the connection. "He" is a personification where as the concept of omnipotence is not. Therefore "he" cannot make a rock that "he" cannot lift, because you are mixing a personification with omnipotence. That doesn't take omnipotence to understand.

It doesnt take onnipotence to fixate on one word in someone's post and try and sound smart either.

Originally posted by riv6672
It doesnt take onnipotence to fixate on one word in someone's post and try and sound smart either.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about. If you are just going to be hostel and not really want to talk to other people, then why make a thread in the first place?

The idea of an omnipotent being is incomparable with calling that being a "he". It leads to silly questions like "Can god create a rock that he cannot lift?". The reason that question is silly is because we are not talking about an omnipotent god, but instead an omnipotent personification.

I guess i cant make everyone happy.

Originally posted by riv6672
I guess i cant make everyone happy.

Why would God what to make anyone happy?

Oh puh-lease, i'm not God. At most a minor deity.

Originally posted by riv6672
Oh puh-lease, i'm not God. At most a minor deity.

Your idea was that because God cannot make everyone happy, therefore he is not omnipotent.

Is that correct?

It wasnt my idea.
I also said it was, to me, a perfectly valid argument.

I can think an argument is perfectly valid and not agree with it. I never made my actual opinion on the argument known.
So basically, stop putting words in my mouth yo.

Originally posted by riv6672
It wasnt my idea.
I also said it was, to me, a perfectly valid argument.

I can think an argument is perfectly valid and not agree with it. I never made my actual opinion on the argument known.
So basically, stop putting words in my mouth yo.

I just asked you a question. A question in no way ever putting words into persons mouth.

It is a very silly argument. It assumes sense everyone is not happy, that an omnipotent God cannot be omnipotent.

What if God doesn't want everyone happy? Now the argument falls apart.

It's actually the worst argent for God not being omnipotence that I have ever seen.

I just asked you a question. A question in no way ever putting words into persons mouth.
you said it was my idea. You put words in my mouth, but, thats okay. You can do that, i can point it out.

It is a very silly argument. It assumes sense everyone is not happy, that an omnipotent God cannot be omnipotent.
in your opinion its silly, in mine its a topic for conversation so, in my opinion one of is wasting his time over a silly argument, and, it aint me.

Are YOU assuming everyone IS happy? Just asking; dont want to put words in your mouth.

What if God doesn't want everyone happy? Now the argument falls apart.
is that question rhetorical? Not personally knowing any gods, any opinions i have on their actions is speculation on my part. Arent yours?
So no, i dont think the argument falls apart at all.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It's actually the worst argent for God not being omnipotence that I have ever seen.
That is, to me, a perfectly valid opinion.

Originally posted by riv6672
That is, to me, a perfectly valid opinion.

Then explain why it is a perfectly valid opinion. In other words, put up or shut up.

Haha, man you are one argumentative SOB.
Thanks for for being true to form and helping me turn this thread into one giant waste of time.

Originally posted by riv6672
Haha, man you are one argumentative SOB.
Thanks for for being true to form and helping me turn this thread into one giant waste of time.

From the very beginning you were the ass.

Originally posted by riv6672
How you know? You arent omnipotent.
Originally posted by riv6672
So you say. You arent omnipotent.
Originally posted by riv6672
How would i know i'm not omnipotent.
Originally posted by riv6672
It doesnt take onnipotence to fixate on one word in someone's post and try and sound smart either.
Originally posted by riv6672
I guess i cant make everyone happy.
Originally posted by riv6672
Oh puh-lease, i'm not God. At most a minor deity.

So when I tried to meet you half way, you did this:

Originally posted by riv6672
It wasnt my idea.
I also said it was, to me, a perfectly valid argument.

I can think an argument is perfectly valid and not agree with it. I never made my actual opinion on the argument known.
So basically, stop putting words in my mouth yo.

So, don't give me this "you are such an SOB" crap!

So...you ARENT seeing this as funny.

Well, thank you for the multiple posts on the topic you didnt think much of anyway.
AND the quick response.
Sorry i had you wait 2 1/2 hours for you to respond in under 10 minutes. Had to download wood for my tree house.

Originally posted by riv6672
So...you ARENT seeing this as funny.

Well, thank you for the multiple posts on the topic you didnt think much of anyway.
AND the quick response.
Sorry i had you wait 2 1/2 hours for you to respond in under 10 minutes. Had to download wood for my tree house.

I look forward to your next thread!

Originally posted by riv6672
Got me thinking of God's omnipotence. Googled away, and found a, to me, perfectly valid argument as to why he's not.

He cant please everybody.

in the Bible, although God is "almighty" in a sense that He is the most powerful being, the supreme being - He is NOT "omnipotent" in a sense that there are things He cannot do...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I look forward to your next thread! i do too!

Originally posted by dyajeep
in the Bible, although God is "almighty" in a sense that He is the most powerful being, the supreme being - He is NOT "omnipotent" in a sense that there are things He cannot do...
Great, GREAT point.

Originally posted by dyajeep
in the Bible, although God is "almighty" in a sense that He is the most powerful being, the supreme being - He is NOT "omnipotent" in a sense that there are things He cannot do...

Indeed. For instance, any covenant He made, ever. He is bound by the covenant for as long as the other end of the covenant is upheld.


I had this argument as a kid in Sunday School. Most people create logical problems or God's omnipotence due to a willful lack of understanding of what his omnipotence is. His omnipotence is great for anything He wants to do but not everything we want him to do.


Limited Omnipotence makes more sense. God will operate, omnipotently, in a specific area of operation. There are areas he will not dabble in. I think some Christians have justified God's ability to do literally anything by His indirect influences...such as Lucifer and humans. God can, indirectly, be truly omnipotent that way.

also, the Bible really states some things God cannot do, for example:

"In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,"
Titus 1:2

"That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us."
Hebrews 6:18

God cannot lie...

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."
James 1:17

God cannot change His being...

"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself."
II Timothy 2:13

God cannot deny Himself...

God does not even know everything... in the same logic that He's not omnipotent but almighty, He is also not omniscient nor omnipresent...

Appreciate the great posts, guys!

Originally posted by riv6672
I posted in the Christianity Symbolism thread yesterday about an early church experience.
Got me thinking of God's omnipotence. Googled away, and found a, to me, perfectly valid argument as to why he's not.

He cant please everybody.

Mind linking the article.

http://books.google.com/books?id=MyxZWqisDwUC&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=even+god+can't+please+everyone&source=bl&ots=ptaFu-GxMJ&sig=jde6COt21VNJ4yEcu61vjxtlcUk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=px9WVLnMAquQigKUq4HoAg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwCg

Where is it talking about his omnipotence?

I googled omnipotence and this was one of the results. I can see why it would come up.
If you dont agree with me on that, lets not drag it out for a page and a half, please. I already did that here yesterday...

Originally posted by riv6672
I googled omnipotence and this was one of the results. I can see why it would come up.
If you dont agree with me on that, lets not drag it out for a page and a half, please. I already did that here yesterday...

Im just not seeing what text you are talking about from that ebook, can you copy paste here?

I'm on a phone, and its not highlighting.
It just talks about how Jesus knew everyone couldnt-shouldnt be pleased. "Woe to you when all men speak well of you".
Its page 183 on the ebook. The link takes me to it.

Oh ok, I see it. No he can't please everyone, that would infringe on free will that he gave us, but since we are all different, what makes some happy might make other sad.

Yup.

Originally posted by riv6672
Yup.

So he limits his omnipotence in some cases to favor his decisions for mankind. With great power comes great responsibility

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BoQ6ZC8EUQ0

Here's a good example of the other side not being omnipotent, either (or too potent for their own good). Love this story.

Originally posted by dyajeep
also, the Bible really states some things God cannot do, for example:

"In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,"
Titus 1:2

"That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us."
Hebrews 6:18

God cannot lie...

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."
James 1:17

God cannot change His being...

"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself."
II Timothy 2:13

God cannot deny Himself...

God does not even know everything... in the same logic that He's not omnipotent but almighty, He is also not omniscient nor omnipresent...

You could read those three aspects as the very same thing. The first would be the quality of perfect creation, whatever is said by the divinity inmediately is hence, it cannot be considered false as its becoming true by the statement itself (performative speech). With language as an effective action, a rebuttal of divinty would be entirely impossible. Since there are no possible rebuttals, there cannot be an absence either so transformation is also separated from the divine essence.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Oh ok, I see it. No he can't please everyone, that would infringe on free will that he gave us, but since we are all different, what makes some happy might make other sad.
Yes, happiness is relative. Therefore, the fact the everyone is not happy is not a valid argument against God's omnipotence.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes, happiness is relative. Therefore, the fact the everyone is not happy is not a valid argument against God's omnipotence.

I'm not arguing against his omnipotence.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I'm not arguing against his omnipotence.

That's not the point, my friend. Out of all the arguments against God's omnipotence, this one:

Originally posted by riv6672
I posted in the Christianity Symbolism thread yesterday about an early church experience.
Got me thinking of God's omnipotence. Googled away, and found a, to me, perfectly valid argument as to why he's not.

He cant please everybody.

...is the worst of all. Do you disagree?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That's not the point, my friend. Out of all the arguments against God's omnipotence, this one:



...is the worst of all. Do you disagree?

Oh yes, I disagree with that one. I was just trying to understand where he was coming from.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Oh yes, I disagree with that one. I was just trying to understand where he was coming from.

Somethings are just mysteries.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Somethings are just mysteries.

Why do you believe there is no God? I think you told me but I forgot.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Why do you believe there is no God? I think you told me but I forgot.

I am not an Atheist. I simply believe that the Christian god is man made just like the Greek and Egyptian gods it was derived from. God cannot be written in a book, is what I believe.

Edit (That's Egyptian, not Encryption) lol

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am not an Atheist. I simply believe that the Christian god is man made just like the Greek and Encryption gods it was derived from. God cannot be written in a book, is what I believe.

Oh cool, Im glad your not Atheist.

Originally posted by dyajeep
also, the Bible really states some things God cannot do, for example:

"In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,"
Titus 1:2

"That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us."
Hebrews 6:18

God cannot lie...

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."
James 1:17

God cannot change His being...

"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself."
II Timothy 2:13

God cannot deny Himself...

God does not even know everything... in the same logic that He's not omnipotent but almighty, He is also not omniscient nor omnipresent...

This is a great post.

Here's why: I'm an arrogant bastard, at times, and your post perfectly validates my point about God having limited Omnipotence.

Yup, I'm an arrogant bastard, this time.

Originally posted by Bentley
You could read those three aspects as the very same thing. The first would be the quality of perfect creation, whatever is said by the divinity inmediately is hence, it cannot be considered false as its becoming true by the statement itself (performative speech). With language as an effective action, a rebuttal of divinty would be entirely impossible. Since there are no possible rebuttals, there cannot be an absence either so transformation is also separated from the divine essence.

Oh, yeah, that's probably true, as well. If He uttered a lie, it would become instantly true because He's omnipotent. So, yeah, I see the logical construct you just designed, here. Quite clever, sir.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Oh yes, I disagree with that one. I was just trying to understand where he was coming from.
Well shaky comes from the land if " i like to argue will pretend i dont care about the subject but will go at it for a page and a half anyway".

I've made enough threads here for everyone to know i just like starting conversations. Doesnt mean i endorse the viewpoints, i just think they'll get people talking, getting their differing opinion freak on.
In shaky's case he can get his fixate and not let it go freak on. And i can get my lets see how many times i can get this guy to post freak on.

Originally posted by riv6672
Well shaky comes from the land if " i like to argue will pretend i dont care about the subject but will go at it for a page and a half anyway".

I've made enough threads here for everyone to know i just like starting conversations. Doesnt mean i endorse the viewpoints, i just think they'll get people talking, getting their differing opinion freak on.
In shaky's case he can get his fixate and not let it go freak on. And i can get my lets see how many times i can get this guy to post freak on.

Feel free, I like your threads, I like debates.

Originally posted by riv6672
Well shaky comes from the land if " i like to argue will pretend i dont care about the subject but will go at it for a page and a half anyway".

I've made enough threads here for everyone to know i just like starting conversations. Doesnt mean i endorse the viewpoints, i just think they'll get people talking, getting their differing opinion freak on.
In shaky's case he can get his fixate and not let it go freak on. And i can get my lets see how many times i can get this guy to post freak on.

Originally posted by riv6672
How you know? You arent omnipotent.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Feel free, I like your threads, I like debates.
He can't debate you. You'd stomp him into the ground.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
He can't debate you. You'd stomp him into the ground.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is a great post.

Here's why: I'm an arrogant bastard, at times, and your post perfectly validates my point about God having limited Omnipotence.

Yup, I'm an arrogant bastard, this time.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh, yeah, that's probably true, as well. If He uttered a lie, it would become instantly true because He's omnipotent. So, yeah, I see the logical construct you just designed, here. Quite clever, sir.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial


Although, it might be fun to watch.

Careful, shaky, your insecurities are showing. Still, its fun to watch.

Originally posted by riv6672
Careful, shaky, your insecurities are showing. Still, its fun to watch.

Originally posted by riv6672
So you say. You arent omnipotent.

Doesnt really take omnipotence to sit here chuckling at a parrot not smart enough to win the arguments he starts, and so insecure he cant let it those arguments go.

shots fired

Originally posted by riv6672
Doesnt really take omnipotence to sit here chuckling at a parrot not smart enough to win the arguments he starts, and so insecure he cant let it those arguments go.

So, you are ready to debate? Now all we have to do is get you to grow an opinion.

Opinion: you arent very smart.

Originally posted by riv6672
Opinion: you arent very smart.

That's a stupid opinion based a lack of information. What are you going to do next, call me a name?

I base my opinion on what everyone here who dont know each ither in RL or other forms of social media base their opinions of other posters on: what gets posted here.

To add, and owing to, my first opinion...

You're easily angered.

You're passive aggresive.

You're defensive.

When you lash out, you begin doing so in a passive manner, then become more aggresive.

In cases like this, where the poster you're exchanging posts with engages you for any length if time, you get defensive.

That said, a mod is going to see this back & forth and accuse me of flaming you so, i'm going to let this go.

Originally posted by riv6672
I base my opinion on what everyone here who dont know each ither in RL or other forms of social media base their opinions of other posters on: what gets posted here.

To add, and owing to, my first opinion...

You're easily angered.

You're passive aggresive.

You're defensive.

When you lash out, you begin doing so in a passive manner, then become more aggresive.

In cases like this, where the poster you're exchanging posts with engages you for any length if time, you get defensive.

That said, a mod is going to see this back & forth and accuse me of flaming you so, i'm going to let this go.

Instead of all this stupid stuff, why don't you just debate the topic like a man?

You made a thread that claimed sense not everyone was happy, God is not omnipotent.

Just to make sure I got it straight, here is your thread starter:

Originally posted by riv6672
I posted in the Christianity Symbolism thread yesterday about an early church experience.
Got me thinking of God's omnipotence. Googled away, and found a, to me, perfectly valid argument as to why he's not.

He cant please everybody.

Now please explain why you think this proves that God is not omnipotent? Then I will explain to you how it doesn't.

Also, as far as mods, as long as you don't act like a child, there will be no problem.

I await a vigorous debate. May the best MAN win.

Originally posted by riv6672
I posted in the Christianity Symbolism thread yesterday about an early church experience.
Got me thinking of God's omnipotence. Googled away, and found a, to me, perfectly valid argument as to why he's not.

He cant please everybody.
I'm pretty sure they believe he could please everyone.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Instead of all this stupid stuff, why don't you just debate the topic like a man?
i started the thread to see what other people had to say.

You made a thread that claimed sense not everyone was happy, God is not omnipotent.
i said it was a perfectly valid argument. I also posted a link where the devil/a demon was told to "get lost" and was undone. Sometimes its the simplest things that are the most difficult.

Just to make sure I got it straight, here is your thread starter:
yes, you managed to copy/paste a prior post correctly. Well done.

Now please explain why you think this proves that God is not omnipotent? Then I will explain to you how it doesn't.
again, for the THIRD time, i never said i personally agreed with the argument, just that i found it valid. I dont believe in abortion, but pro abortionists can and often do, make valid arguments.

Also, as far as mods, as long as you don't act like a child, there will be no problem.
i'd advise you to be careful, but, i really doubt you're acting.

I await a vigorous debate.
that would require me to think you were worth debating.

May the best MAN win.
there's nothing to win here, and your posts in this and many other threads, your posturing and huffing, tells me you're a long way from emotional manhood.


Originally posted by Astner
I'm pretty sure they believe he could please everyone.
They who?

Originally posted by riv6672
They who?
Christians.

Originally posted by Astner
Christians.
Okay, thought thats what you meant. Just making sure.
I'd have to agree with you.
I dont know WHY they'd think that.

Originally posted by riv6672
I dont know WHY they'd think that.
Well there are plenty of good videos on that, or articles if you prefer a more formal approach. If you're interested in knowing that is.

Originally posted by Astner
I'm pretty sure they believe he could please everyone.

And pleasing everyone wouldn't be that difficult, for an omnipotent God.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And pleasing everyone wouldn't be that difficult, for an omnipotent God.
Right. But why should God please you? The Bible teaches that you're a sinner and deserving of hell.

Originally posted by Astner
Right. But why should God please you? The Bible teaches that you're a sinner and deserving of hell.

I look at it a little differently: If you work for something or even suffer for it, you will appreciate it more then if it was just given to you.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I look at it a little differently: If you work for something or even suffer for it, you will appreciate it more then if it was just given to you.
Well you're not a Christian.

Originally posted by Astner
Well you're not a Christian.

Thank goodness.

Originally posted by Astner
Right. But why should God please you? The Bible teaches that you're a sinner and deserving of hell.

How is that what the bible teaches? If so, you might be reading it wrong. The bible tells that we are saved by grace and not by works. All people sin and no one can be perfect. In order to inherit the Kingdom of God all you must do is believe In Jesus that he died for your sins

Take a leap of faith, you might be happy you did.

Well, look at the brightside. All those you dislike deserve hell too

i'm sure most of us deserve some punishment. i think christianity goes a little overboard with it though. hell should be like prison. you do your bid for a while and then you're done. i don't see the point in eternal punishment.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i'm sure most of us deserve some punishment. i think christianity goes a little overboard with it though. hell should be like prison. you do your bid for a while and then you're done. i don't see the point in eternal punishment.

I'm with you, here, as well.


If our spirits don't have any limitations that our brains put on us but our spirits are still thinking entities, then we could have infinite focus and concentration and never tire when working on a task. I could gladly work as a charity spirit for 1000 years for every sin. So if it took 4 million years to cleanse myself, I'd gladly work for 4 million years.

By charity work I mean helping other mortals with decisions, don't creation grunt work, providing comfort to mortals, etc. (basically, the roles that the Holy Spirit fulfills, at times).


It would be nice if it was really like this. I'm pretty sure it's not.

why not?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
All of this is from a book written by humans, and has nothing to do with the topic or reality.
Christianity was specifically mentioned in the opening post, and both you and riv6672 ignorantly dismissed God's existence with a poorly formulated variation of the problem of evil; which the Bible does answer.

Originally posted by Astner
Christianity was specifically mentioned in the opening post, and both you and riv6672 ignorantly dismissed God's existence with a poorly formulated variation of the problem of evil; which the Bible does answer.

Okay, I see your angle.

Originally posted by Astner
Christianity was specifically mentioned in the opening post, and both you and riv6672 ignorantly dismissed God's existence with a poorly formulated variation of the problem of evil; which the Bible does answer.
I think you misreading my post(s) isnt ignorant per say, but its funny.

He's putting words in your mouth Riv, everyone puts words in your mouth.

Not everybody.
Some people simply misread, then there's guys that just like to argue and/or start crap.

-looks at Bentley and smiles-

Originally posted by riv6672
Not everybody.
Some people simply misread, then there's guys that just like to argue and/or start crap.

-looks at Bentley and smiles-


I'd reply to that but then you'd accuse me about putting words in your mouth

No, i'd just point out your foot in yours.

Originally posted by riv6672
No, i'd just point out your foot in yours.

I don't see what my feet have to do with anything. Language barrier probably?

I sincerely doubt that, Bentley.
Despite any shortcomings, i consider you a fish, i dont judge you by your ability to climb a tree.

That must be an attempt of humor, because I don't picture you being serious enough to mean disrespect like that. Cryptic.

No wonder why people put words in your mouth so often.

Dont see how that was disrespectful.
I dont expect much from posters, like you, that have shown themselves to be incessantly pabulum. I'm rarely disappointed, and sometimes pleasantly surprised.

Originally posted by riv6672
Dont see how that was disrespectful.
I dont expect much from posters, like you, that have shown themselves to be incessantly pabulum. I'm rarely disappointed, and sometimes pleasantly surprised.

We're obviously out of tune, it happens

I'm pleasantly surprised.

Originally posted by Astner
Right. But why should God please you? The Bible teaches that you're a sinner and deserving of hell.

Originally posted by Astner
Well you're not a Christian.

whoa... wait... hold your horses, dude...

"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
I Timothy 4:10

the God of the Bible, as was written, is the Savior of ALL people - believers or non-believers...

and also, sinners does NOT deserve hell... EVIL deserves hell... hell was created to punish the evil:

"Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;"
Matthew 25:41

hell (eternal fire) was prepared for satan and his minions... the only time a person will be cast to hell is when he deliberately aligned himself with the devil...

sinners are different from evil people... in fact, Jesus came because of them:

"And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."
Mark 2:17

is not believing in any of that stuff the same as purposely aligning yourself with the devil in your eyes?

Originally posted by red g jacks
is not believing in any of that stuff the same as purposely aligning yourself with the devil in your eyes?

not in MY eyes, but in every individual...

have you ever felt this? that you will do something and you know it's wrong, yet you still do it, and felt bad afterwards?

another instance is, you will do something and you know it's wrong, yet you still do it, and felt no remorse about it?

in my opinion, deliberately aligning with the devil is doing something wrong, and being happy about it, no regrets... for example, you stole another man's wife, everybody knows it wrong, not just in God's law but also in man's... it's preventable but you still did it...

yea i can be amoral sometimes. but to me not believing isn't something that is immoral but i do it anyway. if anything i might be wrong but not in a moral sense. it's more like trying to do a math problem and getting it wrong. really there is no transgression there so if god has the same kind of morality that i do then he wouldn't hold it against me for getting a question wrong.

Originally posted by red g jacks
yea i can be amoral sometimes. but to me not believing isn't something that is immoral but i do it anyway. if anything i might be wrong but not in a moral sense. it's more like trying to do a math problem and getting it wrong. really there is no transgression there so if god has the same kind of morality that i do then he wouldn't hold it against me for getting a question wrong.

i was not even talking if you're a believer or not... doing something immoral, and knowing that what you're doing is immoral - that's wrong...

there are things we do intentionally and unintentionally... and it's what you know that counts...

"Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin."
James 4:17

implies that if you did not know, you did not commit sin... you commit sin when you know that what you will do is wrong and you still continue to do it... God does NOT impute sin on what you do not know... and you cannot pretend that you don't know something since He can read minds and hearts...

Originally posted by dyajeep
i was not even talking if you're a believer or not... doing something immoral, and knowing that what you're doing is immoral - that's wrong...oh. well that was the question i asked you initially. "do you think not believing is purposely aligning yourself with the devil?"

yea.. i'm guilty of that.

for example i eat meat knowing that i am financially supporting a system that brutalizes animals and makes them suffer yet i don't feel bad because... i don't know really i'm just selfish i guess.

i buy computers and electronics knowing they were probably manufactured by people being exploited in asia, knowing they contain precious metals that were probably mined by people being exploited and abused in africa... and yet i continue without any remorse or intent to change because once again i am selfish.

but i don't think i deserve eternal torture for that. maybe i deserve some punishment but there can be no redemption in suffering eternally and without redemption the entire system seems pointless.

god might as well eliminate the evil souls once and for all. that would make more sense, be more just and more compassionate than torturing something forever for being flawed when pretty much everything is flawed to one extent or another.

Originally posted by red g jacks
for example i eat meat knowing that i am financially supporting a system that brutalizes animals and makes them suffer yet i don't feel bad because... i don't know really i'm just selfish i guess.

i buy computers and electronics knowing they were probably manufactured by people being exploited in asia, knowing they contain precious metals that were probably mined by people being exploited and abused in africa... and yet i continue without any remorse or intent to change because once again i am selfish.

your examples are not even considered as sins... here are the examples of the Bible:

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Galatians 5:19-21

Again, if you think sin is so small that you're forever going to indulge it, you might as well admit you won't mind staying in hell forever since you're essentially staying there because of sin.

Originally posted by dyajeep
your examples are not even considered as sins... here are the examples of the Bible:

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Galatians 5:19-21 what is fornication... ****ing outside marriage? to me that shouldn't be considered a sin. the shit i mentioned is more harmful and more immoral.

Originally posted by Bentley
Again, if you think sin is so small that you're forever going to indulge it, you might as well admit you won't mind staying in hell forever since you're essentially staying there because of sin. yea.... except i don't like getting tortured so i'm pretty sure i'd mind.

This has taken an interesting turn.

My philosophy is, i live my life the best i can.
I had no choice in being born, and no choice in being judged when i die. I'm not going to worry about it.

Originally posted by red g jacks
what is fornication... ****ing outside marriage? to me that shouldn't be considered a sin. the shit i mentioned is more harmful and more immoral.

then it's up to you... what i'm saying is what's written in the Bible, and i'm not forcing anyone to believe in it... just saying...

anyway, fornication is basically the voluntary sexual intercourse between two persons of the opposite sex, where one is or both are unmarried... if we set the Bible aside just for a moment, if you avoid fornication, it's good for you since you'll not have STDs, well if you don't practice safe sex... but morally, it's about a person's fidelity to their spouses... marriage is sacred in the Bible and so is the foundation of the family so fornication is a very grave sin...






Originally posted by riv6672
My philosophy is, i live my life the best i can.

no problem with this so long as what you say "best" is also for the good of yourself and the others...

Originally posted by red g jacks
yea.... except i don't like getting tortured so i'm pretty sure i'd mind.

Again, you're likely staying in hell because you are still in sin. I'm assuming that if you experience hell you'd be hanging to your old sins as if they were some kind of drug to get you through torture. The torture would be essentially timeless, so you would be perpetrating your dependance on sin eternally and hence keeping yourself in hell.

The fact that you can never get rid of sins that are minimal to you is what keeps you there forever.

No idea if this is canon at all for Church teachings though awesr

By best i mean best. My best. Not anyone else's. I'm not perfect, pretend, or try to be.
Like i said, i've got no choice in certain matters, so, worrying what some unfathomable deity thinks of how i've lived my life seems counter productive. I only worry about how i think i've lived my life.

Originally posted by Bentley
Again, you're likely staying in hell because you are still in sin. I'm assuming that if you experience hell you'd be hanging to your old sins as if they were some kind of drug to get you through torture. The torture would be essentially timeless, so you would be perpetrating your dependance on sin eternally and hence keeping yourself in hell.

The fact that you can never get rid of sins that are minimal to you is what keeps you there forever.

No idea if this is canon at all for Church teachings though awesr see, i'm sure this makes sense to you but to me it's pure gibberish. i wouldn't not mind being tortured by satan because i have sinned any more than i would not mind being tortured by isis because i have sinned. it's just a silly thing to say to me.

Originally posted by red g jacks
see, i'm sure this makes sense to you but to me it's pure gibberish. i wouldn't not mind being tortured by satan because i have sinned any more than i would not mind being tortured by isis because i have sinned. it's just a silly thing to say to me.

Well, the idea behind my post was to portray how the proportions that might seem skewed -eternity vs some random sins- can be sustained into what would be essentially timeless. Another possibility is that we live hell as in a memory, unable to act on it, but tormented by it all the time.

And I'm not saying that this is true or that I believe on it, that ist entirely beyond the point. This doesn't mean it's a silly thing to say, I happen to be satisfied at the abstract development of the whole thing thank you ahah

This is a religion forum after all.

That said I'd rather not have anyone torturing you for any reason

i'm not really sure what you're saying. maybe i'm misinterpreting your previous post but to me it sounded like you were saying that if satan was torturing me with fire or some shit i would find consolation in the fact that i did a bunch of bad shit when i was alive so i wouldn't mind the torture. i'm saying i would still mind the torture because torture sucks and that's basically the whole point of torture.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i'm not really sure what you're saying. maybe i'm misinterpreting your previous post but to me it sounded like you were saying that if satan was torturing me with fire or some shit i would find consolation in the fact that i did a bunch of bad shit when i was alive so i wouldn't mind the torture. i'm saying i would still mind the torture because torture sucks and that's basically the whole point of torture.

Ok, it's not that you'd find consolation, it's more like everytime you fall into your old habits torture will find a way to keep going. Broken mentally and physically by torture you can only remain in the same hole that you wouldn't be able to escape when you were healthy and in your right mind.

If that makes sense mmm

it doesn't make sense to me. i'm still not sure what you're saying.

Originally posted by red g jacks
it doesn't make sense to me. i'm still not sure what you're saying.

The idea is that hell is sustained by our own weaknesses. If we do evil stuff knowing it's evil now that we have options, it won't get any easier under torture.

yea. i can agree that it won't get easier under torture. i don't get why that means i wouldn't mind the torture.

Did I say you wouldn't mind torture? If so, it must've slipped through my statements as it wasn't the point I was trying to make.

A torture you don't care about is hardly much of a torture.

you said if i don't mind sinning i might as well say i don't mind being in hell forever. which i always thought would be torture.

Originally posted by red g jacks
you said if i don't mind sinning i might as well say i don't mind being in hell forever. which i always thought would be torture.


I didn't intend to establish a straight relationship between those two things. If there is a link at all between them, it'd be too cynical to put it like that. Certainly not a moral belief.

Originally posted by red g jacks
see, i'm sure this makes sense to you but to me it's pure gibberish. i wouldn't not mind being tortured by satan because i have sinned any more than i would not mind being tortured by isis because i have sinned. it's just a silly thing to say to me.

satan is not the lord in hell, he is also tortured in it...

my idea is that, no one will go to hell unless he's purely evil... the God of the Bible is fair in judgment and merciful... and He does not forget all the good things we've all done...

"For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister."
Hebrews 6:10

Originally posted by dyajeep
satan is not the lord in hell, he is also tortured in it... ...

I agree. Satan is not the lord of anything. Satan is mythology, and not real.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Satan is mythology, and not real.

to you, Shak... but for me, he is real...

Originally posted by dyajeep
to you, Shak... but for me, he is real...

Then you make Satan real. All you have to do is not believe, and Satan will stop being real. I'm sure you will then ask where does all the evil come from? The answer is simple, it comes from humans. Just like presents on Christmas morning come from your parents and not Santa Claus.

Free your mind... or don't...

Originally posted by dyajeep
satan is not the lord in hell, he is also tortured in it...

my idea is that, no one will go to hell unless he's purely evil... the God of the Bible is fair in judgment and merciful... and He does not forget all the good things we've all done...

"For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister."
Hebrews 6:10 purely evil as in hitler or something? cause i don't think i'm that bad just a bit amoral.

Originally posted by red g jacks
purely evil as in hitler or something? cause i don't think i'm that bad just a bit amoral.

then i don't think you're going to hell...





Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then you make Satan real. All you have to do is not believe, and Satan will stop being real. I'm sure you will then ask where does all the evil come from? The answer is simple, it comes from humans. Just like presents on Christmas morning come from your parents and not Santa Claus.

Free your mind... or don't...

not that simple... you see, the Bible acknowledges that there's innate lust in people, apart from being tempted by satan:

"But each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed."
James 1:14

so there are sins committed because of satan's temptations, and there are sins committed because out of your own fault...

do you believe in evil spirits? i believe those because they are mentioned in the Bible... evil spirits do exist...

Originally posted by dyajeep
then i don't think you're going to hell...







not that simple... you see, the Bible acknowledges that there's innate lust in people, apart from being tempted by satan:

"But each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed."
James 1:14

so there are sins committed because of satan's temptations, and there are sins committed because out of your own fault...

do you believe in evil spirits? i believe those because they are mentioned in the Bible... evil spirits do exist...

No, I do not believe in evil spirits. 100% of all the evil in the world is created by humans. There is nothing for Satan or evil spirits to do. Humans don't need a mythological being to temp them. They do quit well on their own.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No, I do not believe in evil spirits.

buddhists believe in devas and brahmas... what are those?

Originally posted by dyajeep
buddhists believe in devas and brahmas... what are those?
Mythology.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Mythology.

buddhism = myth... everything's a myth to you?

Originally posted by dyajeep
buddhism = myth... everything's a myth to you?

Mythology has its place.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Mythology has its place.

tell me, you're not really a buddhist, are you?

Originally posted by dyajeep
tell me, you're not really a buddhist, are you?
Yes I am. I am also a member of Soka Gakkai International (SGI).

tell me, you're not really a christian, are you?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes I am. I am also a member of SGI.

tell me, you're not really a christian, are you?

i am a Christian, i also post like one... it's just that i'm more on Scriptures rather than traditions... i'm no catholic...

Originally posted by dyajeep
i am a Christian, i also post like one... it's just that i'm more on Scriptures rather than traditions... i'm no catholic...

Was you offended by the question?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Was you offended by the question?

nope... i already know you, shak... like the back of my hand...

Originally posted by dyajeep
nope... i already know you, shak... like the back of my hand...

What does that have to do with anything?

So, you will not be offended when I question your religious affiliation?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What does that have to do with anything?

So, you will not be offended when I question your religious affiliation?

nope, not at all... why? i'd probably more offended if you told me i'm a grammar police! lol.

Originally posted by dyajeep
nope, not at all... why? i'd probably more offended if you told me i'm a grammar police! lol.

Not everyone is like you.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not everyone is like you.

Jesus Himself is open and subject to criticisms, in His time up until now... so why should i be different? it's just a matter of defending your faith or belief, in a proper way, that is...

Originally posted by dyajeep
Jesus Himself is open and subject to criticisms, in His time up until now... so why should i be different? it's just a matter of defending your faith or belief, in a proper way, that is...

Jesus is also a part of my religion. He was a Bodhisattva. You do not compare to a Bodhisattva.

Staying to the topic is the proper way, here. But then again this thread seems to be dead.

I like where this thread meandered, for the most part.
Found a few useful tidbits for my great American novel.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Jesus is also a part of my religion. He was a Bodhisattva.

that's good to hear... nothing but thumbs up right there...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You do not compare to a Bodhisattva.

nah, it's not what i meant... in the Bible, Jesus said:

"Remember the word that I said to you, A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also."
John 15:20

not really going literal in "persecution"... but my point was if Jesus is open and subject to criticisms, then i should be to... Christians are supposed to be followers of Christ...

Originally posted by dyajeep
that's good to hear... nothing but thumbs up right there...



nah, it's not what i meant... in the Bible, Jesus said:

"Remember the word that I said to you, A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also."
John 15:20

not really going literal in "persecution"... but my point was if Jesus is open and subject to criticisms, then i should be to... Christians are supposed to be followers of Christ...

Okay, I misunderstood you.

We should all be open to having our ideas scrutinize.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Okay, I misunderstood you.

We should all be open to having our ideas scrutinize.