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I think it would be interesting and helpful if we were to develop a ranking tier system, as in the Comic Vs. forum, to place the more established characters into.

It would be a challenge to anyone who attempted, and nobody could get it all right on their own, but I think the KMC SWEU community could make a great attempt that would produce a great guide for people who are just getting into SWEU, or are just interested.

There are certainly different criteria that we could use to judge, like: Force power, force mastery, lightsaber skill, versatility, etc., but I assert that an overall Combat Prowess be what we measure here, as that would include aspects of all aforementioned criteria, but more importantly showcasing those said criteria in a combat setting, as this is a Vs forum.

Skybreaker attempted something slightly similar to this recently, and I found it disappointing that not a single other poster attempted to rank as the OP intended. I hope the unwillingness was not caused by a lack of knowledge, but we shall see.

The template I had in mind, again, following Comic Vs's lead, would be like:

God Tier: Abeloth, The Ones

Grand Master Tier: Luke Skywalker, Darth Sidious, Yoda

High Master: Mace Windu, Kyp Durron, Jaina Solo, Count Dooku, Darth Bane.

Master: Corran Horn, Kyle Katarn, Lumiya, Mara Jade

High Knight: Leia, Ben Skywalker, Cilghal, Jaden Kor, etc.

Anyway, that's just a basic start, but any input is welcome and attempts to recreate what I had in mind are certainly encouraged. Feel free to change/make more sensible rankings if you prefer.

Cool idea.

Meh IDK. One of the problems with Comicvine is that there's too much of an established norm.

The KMC comic versus forum has a tier system, too. It would make things easier if done right, but getting everyone to agree on who is in what tier...

Originally posted by Trocity
The KMC comic versus forum has a tier system, too. It would make things easier if done right, but getting everyone to agree on who is in what tier...

I refrenced the Comic Vs tier in my OP a couple times, as I really enjoy utilizing it. Having a SW one would be great.

nah

I've been waiting for a thread like this. It's a very good idea to be able to rank the sw characters and I was always wondering why a list was never created.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Meh IDK. One of the problems with Comicvine is that there's too much of an established norm.

I have never been to Comic Vine, so I hope you don't think I was referencing it. I was talking about the KMC Comic Vs. Ranking Thread many users contributed to create.

Edit: Spelling hard.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I refrenced the Comic Vs tier in my OP a couple times, as I really enjoy utilizing it. Having a SW one would be great.

My apologies, I read it as "Comic Vine" lol

Well, there's different degrees of details. I tend to break things down into more levels.

For me, there's exceptional beings (the One etc.)

Luke Tier (Luke)
Top Tier Grand Master/Dark Lord (Sidious/Yoda/Caedus/Vitiate/etc.)

Grand Master / Dark Lord (Malgus Krayt Satele Exar Jaina Windu Exar Dooku etc.)

High Council (Kenobi Katarn Shaak Ti Plo Koon Nihl Mara jade Sebatyne)

Mid Council (Sazen Kolar Tiin Solusar Azard etc.)

High Jedi/Sith Warrior (Quinlan Aayla Bultar Aurra Piell etc.)

Mid Jedi/Sith Warrior (Ahsoka, Zayne Carrick, Ben Skywalker, etc...)

Low Jedi/Sith Warrior (Tends to be a phase characters tend to pass through rather than stay at. Early series Ahsoka, for example).

Rank and file Jedi/Sith.


Below council I dispensed with master/knight, because too many of the examples of good warriors are knights who are not-yet-promoted, too many of the lower rank ones are masters promoted for non-combat reasons, etc..

And I don't have a separate low-council because while the best combatants of councils tend to stand above the rest of their orders, the ones who are on the council for their combat skills, but at the bottom of that bunch, tend to not necessarily stand above good warriors outside the council.


Heck, for that matter, I think I could also break up Dark Lord into the strong of them, often those with special cheats, (Exar/Reborn Krayt/etc.) and the more normal ones (Dooku, Armored Krayt, Ulic, Malak)....

Base Luke should be Sids tier.

Bloodlusted, all out, no holding back for fear of falling to the dark side Luke is in his own tier, though.

GM Luke is inconsistent.

Originally posted by Trocity
Base Luke should be Sids tier.

Bloodlusted, all out, no holding back for fear of falling to the dark side Luke is in his own tier, though.

He doesn't have to go near the dark side to hit that level, mind. But yes, most of the time he does fight around Sids/Yoda tier.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, there's different degrees of details. I tend to break things down into more levels.

For me, there's exceptional beings (the One etc.)

Luke Tier (Luke)
Top Tier Grand Master/Dark Lord (Sidious/Yoda/Caedus/Vitiate/etc.)

Grand Master / Dark Lord (Malgus Krayt Satele Exar Jaina Windu Exar Dooku etc.)

High Council (Kenobi Katarn Shaak Ti Plo Koon Nihl Mara jade Sebatyne)

Mid Council (Sazen Kolar Tiin Solusar Azard etc.)

High Jedi/Sith Warrior (Quinlan Aayla Bultar Aurra Piell etc.)

Mid Jedi/Sith Warrior (Ahsoka, Zayne Carrick, Ben Skywalker, etc...)

Low Jedi/Sith Warrior (Tends to be a phase characters tend to pass through rather than stay at. Early series Ahsoka, for example).

Let me suggest additions:

Abstract: Abeloth, The Ones

Top Tier Grand Master/Dark Lord: Luke, Sidious, Yoda, Caedus, Vitiate

Grand Master / Dark Lord: Malgus, Krayt, Satele, Exar, Jaina, Windu, Exar, Dooku, Unu'Thul

High Council: Kenobi, Katarn, Shaak Ti, Plo Koon, Nihl, Mara jade, Sebatyne, Corran Horn, Kyp Durron

Mid Council: Sazen, Kolar, Tiin, Solusar, Azard, Darth Maul, Qui-Gon

High Jedi/Sith Warrior: Quinlan, Aayla, Bultar, Aurra, Piell, Ventress

Mid Jedi/Sith Warrior: Ahsoka, Zayne Carrick, Ben Skywalker, Leia, Scout

Low Jedi/Sith Warrior

I put Luke with the others because I think he is in their tier; He is just the best in the top tier.

1. Abeloth, The Ones, Nihilus

2. Luke, Revan (3.0)

3. Sidious, Yoda, Caedus, Vitiate

4. Malgus, Krayt, Exar, Vader

5. Dooku

6. Windu

7. Kenobi, Maul

Tier One: The ones, Abeloth

Tier 2: Plagueis, Yoda, Luke, The Emperor, Caedus

Tier 3: Vader, Dooku, Maul, Windu, Obi Wan, Hero, Darth Tenebrous, Exar Kun, Kyp Durron, Darth Krayt, Darth Malgus, Revan, Darth Traya, Plo Koon, Asajj Ventress, Jaina Solo, Kyle Katarn, Wrath II, Lumiya, General Grievous, Darth Venamis?

Tier 4: Kit Fisto, Darth Wyyrlok, Durge, Agen Kolar, Sora Bulq, Shaak Ti, Satele Shan, Barsenthor, Raskta Lsu, Darth Malak, Darth Nihl, Ulic Qel Droma, Savage Opress, Saesee Tiin, Qui Gon Jinn, Quinlan Vos, Jerec?,Darth Bane, Vodo Siosk Baas, Ven Zallow, Ki Adi Mundi, Cade Skywalker, Satele Shan, Darth Baras, Luminara Unduli

Tier 5: Darth Zannah, Jaden Korr, Kas'im, Xanatos, Gnost Dural, Kao Cen Darach, Tol Braga, Aayla Secura, Anoon Bondara, Darth Talon, Kam Solusar, Bastila Shan, Wolf Sazen, Clighal, Aryn Leneer, Scourge, Darth Sion, Tholme, Bruu Jun Fan, Nomi Sunrider, Vindican? etc.

I probably left some out

Ah, Saba would be tier 3, Mara Jade maybe the lower end of tier 3, Corran Horn tier 4, or high end of tier 4, and Thanaton and Eeth Koth tier 5

*** Tier 10 ***

The Ones (Abeloth as Mother)

*** Tier 9 ***



Darth Plagueis
Darth Sidious
Darth Nihilus
Master of the Order - Mace Windu
The Sith Emperor - Vitiate
Grand Master - Yoda
Grand Master - Luke

*** Tier 8 ***

Darth Vader
Count Dooku
Darth Maul
Darth Caedus
Darth Krayt
Darth Malgus
Darth Sion
Satele Shan
Darth Bane
Exar Kun
Darth Tenebrous
Darth Bane
Darth Zannah
Darth Scabrous
Starkiller
Darth Venamis
Lumiya
Kyp Durron
Darth Revan
Darth Traya

*** Tier 7 ***

Obi-Wan Kenobi
Anakin Skywalker
Plo Koon
Qui-Gon Jinn
Kit Fisto
Asajj Ventress
Savage Opress
Darth Nihl
Darh Wyyrlok
Darth Talon
Pong Krell
Jerec
Kyle Katarn
Ulic Qel-Droma
Odan-Urr
Darth Malak
Bruu Jun-Fan
Quinlan Vos
Sora Bulq
Cade Skywalker
Anoon Bondara
Darth Maladi
Jaina Solo
Saba Sebatyne
Ven Zallow
Meetra Surik

Maul and Caedus in the same tier? LOL!

Come on now.

Originally posted by Trocity
Maul and Caedus in the same tier? LOL!

Caedus is overrated and TCW Darth Maul underrated

Originally posted by Trocity
Maul and Caedus in the same tier? LOL!

Come on now.

Yeah, Maul should be Ones Tier.

Bane and Sion don't belong with Exar Kun, Malgus, Krayt, Traya, Maul, or any high tier Sith. Sion is near featless and is only famous for being quasi immortal, and Bane isn't as skilled as a great deal of fighters on tier 8. He is like mid-high tier 7. Satele might be low tier 8 though, I'm not sure.

Originally posted by carthage
Bane and Sion don't belong with Exar Kun, Malgus, Krayt, Traya, Maul, or any high tier Sith. Sion is near featless and is only famous for being quasi immortal, and Bane isn't as skilled as a great deal of fighters on tier 8. He is like mid-high tier 7. Satele might be low tier 8 though, I'm not sure.

Sion's immortality technique deserves some credit imo, and Bane's force powers gives him the enough credit.

Sure, but how can you justify putting Sion a tier above the Exile when she kicked his ass like 5 times in a row on a nexus after fighting through an entire academy of Sith + storm beasts?

Originally posted by Marco1907
Sion's immortality technique deserves some credit imo, and Bane's force powers gives him the enough credit.

His TK off nexus was barely breaking rocks, cracking boxes, killing guards, and tents, and he has never beaten anyone apart from featless trainees. He's more on the level of Quinlan Vos and Savage Opress, and that's being generous considering they've actually beaten semi-powerful fighters.

Hmm... It seems I should've put Sion in tier 7, (looks like too much credit for one technique)


*** Tier 10 ***

The Ones (Abeloth as Mother)

*** Tier 9 ***



Darth Plagueis
Darth Sidious
Darth Nihilus
Master of the Order - Mace Windu
The Sith Emperor - Vitiate
Grand Master - Yoda
Grand Master - Luke

*** Tier 8 ***

Darth Vader
Count Dooku
Darth Maul
Darth Caedus
Darth Krayt
Darth Malgus
Satele Shan
Darth Bane
Exar Kun
Darth Tenebrous
Darth Bane
Darth Zannah
Darth Scabrous
Starkiller
Darth Venamis
Lumiya
Kyp Durron
Darth Revan
Darth Traya

*** Tier 7 ***

Obi-Wan Kenobi
Anakin Skywalker
Plo Koon
Qui-Gon Jinn
Kit Fisto
Asajj Ventress
Savage Opress
Darth Nihl
Darh Wyyrlok
Darth Talon
Pong Krell
Jerec
Kyle Katarn
Ulic Qel-Droma
Odan-Urr
Darth Malak
Bruu Jun-Fan
Quinlan Vos
Sora Bulq
Cade Skywalker
Anoon Bondara
Darth Maladi
Jaina Solo
Saba Sebatyne
Ven Zallow
Meetra Surik
Darth Sion

Bane too

Originally posted by carthage
His TK off nexus was barely breaking rocks, cracking boxes, killing guards, and tents, and he has never beaten anyone apart from featless trainees. He's more on the level of Quinlan Vos and Savage Opress, and that's being generous considering they've actually beaten semi-powerful fighters.

His force lightning is impressive enough imo, he has better force lightning than Count.

Originally posted by Marco1907
TCW Darth Maul underrated

TCW Maul had difficulty with Pre Vizla -_-

Do you guys think that we should maybe include the non force sensitive characters and where they stand in regards to the jedi/sith?

We can argue who goes on which tier elsewhere, I think we should focus on possible ranking systems here.

Originally posted by deathslash
Do you guys think that we should maybe include the non force sensitive characters and where they stand in regards to the jedi/sith?


Sure.

I find 'how they overlap' to be tricking, but a non-force sensitive tier list seems like a great idea.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
TCW Maul had difficulty with Pre Vizla -_-

TCW Maul needed to make a good show, otherwise he couldn't win the loyalty of Death Watch.

Anyway, why Vizsla is so shit now ? He hold his own against Kenobi with only pure lightsaber skill, and different than Kenobi duel, Vizsla used his every weaponry (grenades, flamethrower etc.) against Maul, and Maul never used any TK to him.

Originally posted by Marco1907
TCW Maul needed to make a good show, otherwise he couldn't win the loyalty of Death Watch.

Is there anything that supports this?



I didn't say he's shit, i'm just saying it's sort of inconsistent along with his struggle with the bounty hunters on Nal Hutta.

I wouldn't put Maul on Caedus' level. Vader>Dooku>Maul imo

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
TCW Maul had difficulty with Pre Vizla -_- ...as did Obi-Wan Kenobi. Besides, this logic is flawed. It's not a bad showing for Maul rather than a good one for Viszla, and the character is just a big bag of nonsense to begin with anyway.

Originally posted by ILS
...as did Obi-Wan Kenobi. Besides, this logic is flawed. It's not a bad showing for Maul rather than a good one for Viszla, and the character is just a big bag of nonsense to begin with anyway.
Mandalorians have been consistently portrayed as some of the greatest non-force sensitive warriors in the mythos, and Vizsla is their leader.

Originally posted by Marco1907
TCW Maul needed to make a good show, otherwise he couldn't win the loyalty of Death Watch.

Why would you so willing believe this with no proof, yet dismiss the idea that Sidious wasn't going all out on the Maul brothers?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Mandalorians have been consistently portrayed as some of the greatest non-force sensitive warriors in the mythos, and Vizsla is their leader. Which is part of what I was getting at - it's not really a bad showing for Maul as much as it is a good showing for Viszla. Although really there hasn't ever been an example of a non-Force sensitive taking on a duelist of Maul's calibre in a lightsaber duel outside of Viszla, which I just chalk up to TCW BS.

Originally posted by ILS
Although really there hasn't ever been an example of a non-Force sensitive taking on a duelist of Maul's calibre in a lightsaber duel outside of Viszla, which I just chalk up to TCW BS.
Grievous...

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Grievous... Who has cybernetic augmentations which make him ridiculously strong, fast and durable...

Boba Fett...

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Is there anything that supports this?



If you did watch the show, you wouldn't ask this question.



Anyway, I can show you dozens of examples about Vader, who had trouble against non-force sensitive Bounty Hunters sometimes, you can't prove anything with that example. Or other Mandalorian leaders, and Fetts were defeating / contending with force sensitive beings etc.


Originally posted by Emperordmb
Mandalorians have been consistently portrayed as some of the greatest non-force sensitive warriors in the mythos, and Vizsla is their leader.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Boba Fett... Fair enough on that one although IIRC him and Jaina were both holding back during that spar.

Edit: Also, is Jaina really as good as Maul as a duelist..?

"I will challenge him to single combat in front of his men" doesn't mean he wasn't going all out against him, albeit without the force

Originally posted by ILS
Edit: Also, is Jaina really as good as Maul as a duelist..?

Seems people are rating her in the Dooku range as a duelist.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Seems people are rating her in the Dooku range as a duelist. I skimmed that thread. Eh.

Originally posted by ILS
Edit: Also, is Jaina really as good as Maul as a duelist..?

Considering her performance against Caedus, I'd say she is considerably better.

Originally posted by Trocity
"I will challenge him to single combat in front of his men" doesn't mean he wasn't going all out against him, albeit without the force

''One warrior to another'' ...

What are you expecting from here ? Speedblitz him with one shot via using force speed or force choking him with sorceries ways of the jedi ?

And Death Watch wouldn't follow you. Even with that good show, some commanders denied Maul, with usage of force, all of them would deny him.

Anyway, a tier list is an awful idea considering how varied our opinions on various characters are.

Originally posted by ares834
Anyway, a tier list is an awful idea considering how varied our opinions on various characters are.

Originally posted by ares834
Considering her performance against Caedus, I'd say she is considerably better. Lol bye context

Caedus, Luke all of them inconsistent from old EU.

GM Luke was unable to defeat Desann in Jedi Knight II. Or he gets some trouble with Lumiya in FotJ, etc.

Originally posted by ILS
Lol bye context

And yet, it is still far more impressive than anything Maul ever did. Especially their first duel.

Originally posted by ares834
And yet, it is still far more impressive than anything Maul ever did. Especially their first duel. Of course it is.

Originally posted by ILS
Of course it is.

Glad you agree.

Originally posted by Marco1907
His force lightning is impressive enough imo, he has better force lightning than Count.

FL means nothing in the aggregate of skill, power, and feats which should be the determining factors in ranking. Nyriss has potent lightning but would be stomped by all the duelists on tier 8, Bane has no skill feats and his lightning doesnt rven compare to what he lacks to be on that tier imo

Originally posted by ares834
Anyway, a tier list is an awful idea considering how varied our opinions on various characters are.

We don't have to agree on who's on it. It's fine if person A thinks character Y is on Grand Master tier while person B thinks they're on High Council.

Arguing about who is where is part of the fun!


I like having tiers for the purpose of mentioning "I think X is this tier, and here's why," to give people a better idea of how I picture characters.



Originally posted by Marco1907
Caedus, Luke all of them inconsistent from old EU.

GM Luke was unable to defeat Desann in Jedi Knight II. Or he gets some trouble with Lumiya in FotJ, etc.

Mind, Desann is a former student, Luke normally goes light on those. And he's more dominant in force than he is in sabers (since, after all, there's a lot of static factors in sabers that don't go up with power. That and he has a conservative style).




Her saber work was roughly on par with Caedus's, so, yea.

She is a Solo with lotsa combat training.

Is no one else going to post their rankings?

I was gonna, but it gets way too complicated.

Originally posted by Q99
We don't have to agree on who's on it. It's fine if person A thinks character Y is on Grand Master tier while person B thinks they're on High Council.

Arguing about who is where is part of the fun!


I like having tiers for the purpose of mentioning "I think X is this tier, and here's why," to give people a better idea of how I picture characters.

I think the idea is to create a tier listing similar to the comic vs forum and, as a forum, put the characters all on that list. The problem is our opinions are far too varied to create one. Sure, each person can create their own, but one representing the forum would be virtually impossible.

Well, a couple years ago SWF did something similar--Basically each person made a top 15 list and posted it on a thread. Then each character mentioned would be counted up in points determined by where they were ranked on each person's list.

#1 = 15 points
#2 = 14 points
#3 = 13 points
(So on so forth)
#14 = 2 points
#15 = 1 point

So basically if, say, four people made a list--One ranked Mace Windu as first, another as third, and two more as second--He'd have 56 points. This would be done for every character, and they would be put in an all-encompasing rank--Those with the most points to those with the least.

That seemed like an interesting way to go about things.

That would be a bad idea just so we can see all of the TOR characters/wanked EU (Nihilus, Vitiate, Bane, Revan,) and their associated characters top the list via mob voting.

No thank you.

Pretty much my thoughts as well. At the end of the day, it would just be popular opinion which is pretty much irrelevant.

Which is sad because the other posters i,e not the TOR/Bane/EU cult have at least a general sense of what characters out or might belong in terms of feats/skill

Lesse, non force users:

Enhanced top tier (those that are superhuman, just via non-force means)- Grievous, Durge, Yuuzhan Vong Warmansters

Top tier all-arounders- Kir Kanos, Pre Vizla, Jango Fett

Top tier in one area/near top all-arounder- Jarael, Cad Bane, Jahan Cross

Exceptionally skilled combatant- Rohlan Dyre, Jariah Syn, Rex

High skilled combatant- Cody, Panakan, most commandos, above-average clone troopers, normal Mandalorians etc.

Skilled combatant- Fully trained Clone Troopers and other skilled soldiers

Unskilled trained combatant- Random Stormtroopers (Rebellion era), B-1 Battledroid

Untrained combatant- Random bandits with weapons, etc.

What makes Jango any better than Cad Bane?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
What makes Jango any better than Cad Bane? Physical stats, accuracy, combat feats, equipment

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SoSayqv1TVI

Cad isn't really any lesser than Jango in any of the categories you listed.

Hm, forgot about the HtH trick he pulled there against Obi-wan...

Jango is Dooku's hand. Bane is Palpatine's.

But the basic set-up of the tiers of non-force users sounds good?

I wonder if I should spin it off into it's own thread...

Maybe we should make multiple tier ranking lists. For example; we could make a tier list for dueling abilities, a list for the force using abilities, the most knowledgeable force users, etc. My reasoning behind this is that it's hard to combine raw power, dueling skill, feats, and implied power and get a clear result. we could still keep a fairly short list of the tiers when they're all combined, but we should break them down into categories.

up

Originally posted by deathslash
Maybe we should make multiple tier ranking lists. For example; we could make a tier list for dueling abilities, a list for the force using abilities, the most knowledgeable force users, etc. My reasoning behind this is that it's hard to combine raw power, dueling skill, feats, and implied power and get a clear result. we could still keep a fairly short list of the tiers when they're all combined, but we should break them down into categories.


On the flipside, sometimes the whole is different than the sum of the parts. Some duelists are only good, but also skilled at including quick force attacks that themselves aren't overwhelming, and combine well for good effect.

While other people have good force and good dueling, but are pretty darn poor at using both at the same time.

For the record, Luke kind of has that 'strong as he needs to be' thing going on. If some writer thinks it'd be good drama to have him struggle with an encounter he should curbstomp, then so be it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrongAsTheyNeedToBe

With this trope in mind, it's perfectly legit for Luke to have his own tier.

The comic book subforum had a ranking/tier system, this should still be undertaken so we can avoid needless reporting of posters to Badabing for laughable claims of making "spite threads". Please no fanboys though this has the potential to be a useful exercise

Originally posted by carthage
The comic book subforum had a ranking/tier system, this should still be undertaken so we can avoid needless reporting of posters to Badabing for laughable claims of making "spite threads". Please no fanboys though this has the potential to be a useful exercise Having a tier 10-1 system would be pretty solid IMO. Luke being tier 10, Bane being tier 1, for example. And we can have different tiers for different aspects of combat, i.e Dueling tiers, Force tiers, all out tiers.

So Kenobi could be a tier 8 duelist but tier 7 all out because of his lack of Force power, for example. We had something akin to this on CV that might have worked out alright if it had been maintained. I kind of want to re-establish it.

The Tier system should work if we can make out who to place where based on their strengths, you hit the nail on the head with the example of Kenobi. If we could work it out, we'd have no more issues with "spite threads" or "mismatches". I don't know I liked the idea of a tier system based on an groupings of force/dueling skill as opposed to different ones.

Neither do I but a lot of people look at it that way sometimes. I think looking at a characters dueling skill and Force separately is more reliable than meshing the two together, too many variables.

It could work for either granted, dueling might be the most difficult due to lack of feats for various EU eras.

Nice to see that some people haven't given up hope on making a good teir ranking system.

...Why isn't Han Solo on the non Force Using ranking system?

If Starship combat is included, not having Wedge Antilles is a travesty.

Voidhound (swtor smuggler) >>> Han.

You underestimate the power of the Harrison Ford side!

Voidhound stole Canderous' skull. Your argument is invalid.

Originally posted by deathslash
Nice to see that some people haven't given up hope on making a good teir ranking system.

Haven't will probably start it out tonight, sucks we can't make edits to a post like on CV though.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
...Why isn't Han Solo on the non Force Using ranking system?


Because it's not supposed to be complete, just a few examples.

Where would you put him?

I'd think the 'Exceptionally skilled combatant' tier. He's a great quickdraw, and good at getting out of situations, but he's not stand out in HtH or such.



That'd certainly be separate, and wouldn't have to split force users from non.

I don't buy Han as better than Cody.

Lesse, pilot-rankings:

Supreme tier:
Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Jaina Solo

Super Ace tier: Wedge Antilles, Soontir Fel, Maarek Stele

Top Ace tier: Tycho Celchu, Corran Horn, Gavin Darklighter, Rookie One

Ace tier: Rogue / Twin Sun Squadron pilots, Obi-Wan Kenobi

Skilled pilot tier: Most clone trooper and rebel pilots, experienced TIE pilots

Grunt pilot tier: Droid fighters, many TIE pilots

Unskilled pilots: Many civilian and makeshift military pilots. Most 'Ugly' pilots.

I am disturbed by your lack of Saesee Tiin.

But yeah, Luke and Anakin are incredible pilots.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't buy Han as better than Cody.

I'd say Cody's more well-rounded, but Han's able to quick-draw well enough to keep in the game against Fett, who I think would beat Cody fairly solidly.

Originally posted by Q99
Lesse, pilot-rankings:

Supreme tier:
Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Jaina Solo

Super Ace tier: Wedge Antilles, Soontir Fel, Maarek Stele

Top Ace tier: Tycho Celchu, Corran Horn, Gavin Darklighter, Rookie One

Ace tier: Rogue / Twin Sun Squadron pilots, Obi-Wan Kenobi

Skilled pilot tier: Most clone trooper and rebel pilots, experienced TIE pilots

Grunt pilot tier: Droid fighters, many TIE pilots

Unskilled pilots: Many civilian and makeshift military pilots. Most 'Ugly' pilots.

Actually Q I would remove TIE pilots from Grunt tier, they are noted as the best in the galaxy and many of the Rebel pilots are former TIE pilots. TIE pilots having superior reflexes to normal humans, that and only 10% of Imperial Pilots actually become TIE pilots.

The skilled pilot tier is where they should be, at base.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Actually Q I would remove TIE pilots from Grunt tier, they are noted as the best in the galaxy and many of the Rebel pilots are former TIE pilots. TIE pilots having superior reflexes to normal humans, that and only 10% of Imperial Pilots actually become TIE pilots.


Keep in mind that we're talking fighter pilots to begin with (i.e. those other ones are all on shuttles, transports, and warships, not fighters), and, well, TIE pilots make up the majority of the fighter pilots in the galaxy. They kinda have to be baseline. They do beat out militia pilots and so on (the 'unskilled' tier), but characters rarely refer to any random TIE pilot as particularly dangerous for passing TIE training.

And the high stand-out ones tend to be promoted to interceptors and such.

Originally posted by Q99
Because it's not supposed to be complete, just a few examples.

Where would you put him?

I'd think the 'Exceptionally skilled combatant' tier. He's a great quickdraw, and good at getting out of situations, but he's not stand out in HtH or such.


Actually Han is a pretty good H2H combatant.

At age 17 he fought and won in a gladiatorial FFA arena, he knows various street fighting techniques. He was able to beat down several thugs while having a conversation with Agent Cross.

So all in all, Han isn't that bad of a H2H combatant either.

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind that we're talking fighter pilots to begin with (i.e. those other ones are all on shuttles, transports, and warships, not fighters), and, well, TIE pilots make up the majority of the fighter pilots in the galaxy. They kinda have to be baseline. They do beat out militia pilots and so on (the 'unskilled' tier), but characters rarely refer to any random TIE pilot as particularly dangerous for passing TIE training.

And the high stand-out ones tend to be promoted to interceptors and such.

Characters may not, but sources do note that they are pretty effective. Also yeah, the better ones do get promoted to better ships and the like.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Characters may not, but sources do note that they are pretty effective.

They're pretty effective, but no better than rebel or clones to be sure (the rebellion spending a lot of effort to get it's pilots good since it *had* to rely on quality over quantity, and helped by many of the defectors being skilled ones).

I mean, arguably one can put rebels, clones, and TIE pilots on the same level, but that's the best I could see.

Originally posted by Q99
They're pretty effective, but no better than rebel or clones to be sure (the rebellion spending a lot of effort to get it's pilots good since it *had* to rely on quality over quantity, and helped by many of the defectors being skilled ones).

I mean, arguably one can put rebels, clones, and TIE pilots on the same level, but that's the best I could see.

I keep hitting the edit button instead of the quote one. :/ It annoys me...

But yeah them being in the same level would be about right.

Immortal Tier:

-The Father
-The Chosen One
-The Children of Mortis
-Abeloth

Tier 10:

-Grandmaster Luke Skywalker
-The Emperor Reborn
-Emperor Vitiate
-Grandmaster Yoda
-Darth Nihilus (http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3177439056.gif)

Tier 9:

-Revan Reborn 3.0
-Darth Plagueis (This one will certainly spark controversy. I'm currently unsure of where exactly to place Plagueis.)
-Emperor Krayt
-Darth Caedus
-Exar Kun
-Darth Vader
-Emperor Malgus
-The Hero of Tython
-Darth Bane (w/Orbalisks)

Tier 8:

-Darth Tyranus
-Mace Windu
-Barsen'thor
-SoD Maul
-Starkiller
-Freedon Nadd (The dude was pretty damn badass, even feats-wise.)
-Darth Traya
-Emperor's Wrath II

-The Rest

I obviously don't expect conformity on this list, just throwing some tiers/names out there.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Revan Reborn 3.0

@NewGuy01: http://www.watchcartoononline.com/star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-3-episode-17-ghosts-of-mortis @ 11:40

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I
Tier 9:

-Darth Plagueis (This one will certainly spark controversy. I'm currently unsure of where exactly to place Plagueis.)

Yea, he's a tricky one, but personally I put him in the same general category.

Plagueis is in the same tier as The Emperor and Caedus, Nihilus is the one that I'm unsure about.

I'd say you need to be just about top tier to ragdoll Traya, consume worlds with force drain, and manipulate an entire starfleet with telekinesis. Just my two cents.

Suggesting Nihilus is on Yoda level is pretty lame, TheLaemOne.

You'd have to say the same of Vitiate, then.

I do.

Laundry List of top saber duelists (in terms of raw skill)

-Luke Skywalker
-Grandmaster Yoda
-Emperor Palpatine
-Darth Caedus
-Mace Windu
-Hero of Tython
-Anakin Skywalker
-Count Dooku
-Darth Vader
-Darth Krayt
-Darth Bane
-Exar Kun
-Ulic Qel Droma
-Obi Wan Kenobi
-Darth Maul
-Jaina Solo
-Revan

People who are probably on this list that are relatively unknown:

-Tulak Hord (Consistently renowned as the most legendary lightsaber duelist of the ancient sith lords, has been documented to slaughter armies of jedi.)
-Freedon Nadd (Barely stalemated his master, a stated perfectionist in the art of lightsaber combat, infinitely before his prime.)
-other people I forgot.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
-Revan

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/114/139/tumblr_lgedv2Vtt21qf4x93o1_40020110725-22047-38imqt.jpg

Hero of Umbara. Kas'im. Raskta.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
-Count Dooku
-Darth Krayt
-Darth Bane
-Exar Kun

http://img.pandawhale.com/88629-Jim-Carrey-laughing-gif-Liar-L-Gtdr.gif

Not to mention it include mental warfare skill.. Wich are very usefull in dueling...

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22046

Final Tally

Revan's Total Telekinetic Energy (Low End) = 1.263 gigatons

Revan's Total Telekinetic Energy (Middle End) = 62.23 teratons

Revan's Total Telekinetic Energy (High End) = 243.069 teratons

Quasi equal to yoda one.

Not to mention than plapa have more skill than Yoda...

Reborn Krayt beats TPM Jinn and Kenobi.

Also, cyborg Vader is categorically a better duelist then his younger unsuited self. Experience has advantages. So does humility.

Revan too...

Obiwan juzt have method he clearly zuffer from an enzlavement to the formz Zokan zorezu, ataru etc... Ztill pretty much the zame appregenzion...

Revan mazter quazi every knowledge than youc an learn from the galaxy az Darth Revan. Remember the pzychic bomb hiz holocron etc etc the foundry...


He hiz totaly unorthodox an never cezz to devlop hiz zkillz az Darth Revan.
I'm zhocked....

And Ajunta pall and all hiz friend? Do you forget them?

I _like_ Seeds currently started the tiering system thingy on comicvine if you guys wanted to post there since its gaining no traction here.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/star-wars-character-tiering-10-1-1628084/#5

@cartage you forgot Great Sith Lord Darth Maul's feat against Darth Sidious, kicked that old man's torso, which is holding his own.

Also TCW Darth Maul stomped Savage Opress, defeated Obi-Wan Kenobi via dun moch, yeah he is a sole tier 9.

ILS is still continue to lowball Great Sith Lord Darth Maul out there.

I also lmfao to Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, just because Kolar one time stomped Quinlan Vos before Vos's prime, and he is at the same level with Maul or Kenobi ? Quinlan before his prime, its like tier 6, and not to mention Kolar never demonstrated another skill feat, except getting saberblitz from Sidious, which is even Savage didn't get.

Savage Opress > Agen in terms of skill. Agen doesn't even deserve to be in tier 7.

The funny thing is, Marco doesn't even realize that boosting up Agen Kolar would help his agenda.

Anyway, I think Vos should be out of this lists, he is just inconsistent. Tol Skorr beat the hell out of him, well I remember ILS said Vos was weakened but, I still didn't see the source for this, I need to see it.

So without Vos's inconsistency, and Windu vs. Tiin's sparring match at TPM timeline make sense, Windu wasn't known as second only to Yoda until AotC showed up, so Windu could stalemate with anyone at the Jedi council at that time.

Not to mention Krayt, he should be in tier 8, he was holding his own against RotS Kenobi way before his prime, then he become more powerful as a duelist as well.

And I still don't get the Emokin wankers, he is good but no where near at another tier than Obi-Wan, or close to Sidious, Yoda or even Mace.

As for Vader ? How can you justify that Vader's dueling abilties are good as Anakin's ? That makes no sense at all. His best dueling feats are against featless Jedi, and he get trouble with low tier duelists sometimes.

Originally posted by Marco1907


So without Vos's inconsistency, and Windu vs. Tiin's sparring match at TPM timeline make sense, Windu wasn't known as second only to Yoda until AotC showed up, so Windu could stalemate with anyone at the Jedi council at that time.




He's been second to Yoda ever since Dooku left the Order actually.

Windu vs Tiin sparring match makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's been second to Yoda ever since Dooku left the Order actually.


There was no Dooku (in any source of Star Wars EU) until AotC showed up. So that equation created after AotC.

They created Dooku's past after AotC EU works.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Windu vs Tiin sparring match makes no sense at all.

As I said, that was before AotC, so we should ignore it. Windu is only second to Yoda equation created in AotC.

What I meant here is they didn't plan to put Dooku in Star Wars PT movies, until TPM is finished, they planned Dooku's character after TPM.

When AotC came out, People would roll eyes, if someone claimed that Windu can beat Sidious.

Originally posted by Marco1907
There was no Dooku (in any source of Star Wars EU) until AotC showed up. So that equation created after AotC.

They created Dooku's past after AotC EU works.



As I said, that was before AotC, so we should ignore it. Windu is only second to Yoda equation created in AotC.

What I meant here is they didn't plan to put Dooku in Star Wars PT movies, until TPM is finished, they planned Dooku's character after TPM.

Oh I see. You mean the source that shows that was created before AOTC and ROTS existed, so isn't reliable anymore. That's a good point actually. Since Windu also had a Blue Saber in that fight.

Kind of like how the Maul vs Vader fight is similarly not the most reliable evidence anymore since at that time we had no idea how good Maul was next to the other Sith Lords ; )

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh I see. You mean the source that shows that was created before AOTC and ROTS existed, so isn't reliable anymore. That's a good point actually. Since Windu also had a Blue Saber in that fight.

Kind of like how the Maul vs Vader fight is similarly not the most reliable evidence anymore since at that time we had no idea how good Maul was next to the other Sith Lords ; )

Yep.

Vader had 3 movie before Maul showed up, what do you want more ? Lol. Not to mention Lucas himself said that PT is the prime of the Jedi, not OT. Vader is not a good duelist as Maul is, or Dooku is, due to his heavy suit. But if want to prove it otherwise by actual dueling feats, be my guest.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yep.

Vader had 3 movie before Maul showed up, what do you want more ? Lol. Not to mention Lucas himself said that PT is the prime of the Jedi, not OT. Vader is not a good duelist as Maul is, or Dooku is, due to his heavy suit. But if want to prove it otherwise by actual dueling feats, be my guest.

Lol why would I show proof when I'm not even arguing Vader being a better duelist than Maul or Dooku?

I'm saying that Old comic of Maul vs Vader doesn't really hold up now just like the Kolar vs Windu one doesn't either.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol why would I show proof when I'm not even arguing Vader being a better duelist than Maul or Dooku?

I'm saying that Old comic of Maul vs Vader doesn't really hold up now just like the Kolar vs Windu one doesn't either.

Alright, I misunderstood.

Well because I don't think those are the same examples since Dooku never existed when Infinity's End (1 of 4) (2000) comic book written (where Tiin and Windu sparring), because AotC showed up in (2002), and Resurrection (2001) comic written after TPM movie (1999), but nevermind.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Alright, I misunderstood.

Well because I don't think those are the same examples since Dooku never existed when Infinity's End (1 of 4) (2000) comic book written (where Tiin and Windu sparring), because AotC showed up in (2002), and Resurrection (2001) comic written after TPM movie (1999), but nevermind.



I get you but I just think there wasn't enough information in 1999-2001 on the Power scale of Prequel era Sith. No one knew there was a Count Dooku then, who could go toe to toe with Yoda, and stomp Kenobi. And that Vader would be that guy's replacement.

We also had no clue how Maul stacks up next to Sidious. Now we do.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I get you but I just think there wasn't enough information in 1999-2001 on the Power scale of Prequel era Sith. No one knew there was a Count Dooku then, who could go toe to toe with Yoda, and stomp Kenobi. And that Vader would be that guy's replacement.

We also had no clue how Maul stacks up next to Sidious. Now we do.

Dooku is going toe-to-toe with Yoda ? Hmm, when that happened ?
Since he can't even go toe-to-toe with Savage Opress ? (I did a counter wank here)

Stomping Kenobi ? Didn't you see the game mechanics here ? It seems game mechanics are very popular here, so we need to use it.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/dooku%20vs%20obi-wan%20game_zpsbfya3ag1.gif
Dooku is not ultimately superior to Kenobi for a stomp, don't forget Kenobi managed to beat Skywalker while Dooku failed.

Either way Anakin's potential was Dooku's replacement, not Suit Vader.

And what was Maul stacks up next to Sidious ? Dooku and Vader wouldn't even give the same fight due to lack of physical abilities such as strength and speed.

Nevermind, your last post makes no f*** sense bro, I've mentioned about suit Vader while you started to wank Count Dooku again and being his replacement that is why Vader should strong but even that logic of yours fails ultimately because Anakin's potential was his replacement at the first place. Not suit, as you know Sidious never planned to make suit Vader his apprentice.

'' "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005. ''

Emperor was looking for Anakin's potential but Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. Then Emperor wanted Luke instead of suit Vader. Just like pre suit Anakin - Dooku exchange once.

As Lucas said, your logic fails here because there is no such thing as suit Vader > Dooku > Maul, as Lucas said they are same. Only Anakin's and Luke's potential would make diffferent here.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku is going toe-to-toe with Yoda ? Hmm, when that happened ?
Since he can't even go toe-to-toe with Savage Opress ? (I did a counter wank here)

Stomping Kenobi ? Didn't you see the game mechanics here ? It seems game mechanics are very popular here, so we need to use it.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/dooku%20vs%20obi-wan%20game_zpsbfya3ag1.gif
Dooku is not ultimately superior to Kenobi for a stomp, don't forget Kenobi managed to beat Skywalker while Dooku failed.

Either way Anakin's potential was Dooku's replacement, not Suit Vader.

And what was Maul stacks up next to Sidious ? Dooku and Vader wouldn't even give the same fight due to lack of physical abilities such as strength and speed.

Nevermind, your last post makes no f*** sense bro, I've mentioned about suit Vader while you started to wank Count Dooku again and being his replacement that is why Vader should strong but even that logic of yours fails ultimately because Anakin's potential was his replacement at the first place. Not suit, as you know Sidious never planned to make suit Vader his apprentice.

'' "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005. ''

Emperor was looking for Anakin's potential but Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. Then Emperor wanted Luke instead of suit Vader. Just like pre suit Anakin - Dooku exchange once.

As Lucas said, your logic fails here because there is no such thing as suit Vader > Dooku > Maul, as Lucas said they are same. Only Anakin's and Luke's potential would make diffferent here.

Thiz iz the problem of the EU...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/73/2d/e5/732de56987460dde99d40a9bfc7c75cb.jpg

EU + Lucaz =
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/73/2d/e5/732de56987460dde99d40a9bfc7c75cb.jpg

That'z why I prefer Revan who'z pure EU...

@ Marco:

I think you've lost the plot bro. I'm not even sure what it is you're arguing.

Maul, Vader and Dooku may all have similar potential but you only need to look at Dooku's battles against Obi-Wan and Anakin compared to Maul's battles with just Obi-Wan to know Dooku's still the bigger pro as of TCW.

There's no shame on Maul there. Dooku's much older and actualized almost his full potential. And yet still most would agree Maul would give Dooku a run for his money.

I never even argued that Vader > Dooku > Maul. I argued if you're going to question the whole Tiin vs Windu fight because of the time period it was set up, then you should also question the Maul vs Vader from that period.

Maul's Revival in TCW alone automatically made much of that comic Unreliable.

Yhea :
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/73/2d/e5/732de56987460dde99d40a9bfc7c75cb.jpg

Zometimez zidiouz V.Z Revan =
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHCVQqAzAgE

7. Vitiate, Nihilus
6. Revan, Vaylin
5. Yoda, Sidious, Plagueis, Traya, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord
4. Starkiller, Vader, Windu, Dooku, Tenebrous, Outlander, Arcann, Malgus, Nyriss, Meetra, Sion, Malak, Freedon Nadd
3. Kenobi, Maul, Yaddle, Bane, Gnost-Dural, Senya, Thanaton, Baras, Marr, Jadus, Satele, Ven Zallow, Vandar Tokare, Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma
2. Savage, Ventress, Pong Krell, Plo Koon, Shaak-Ti, Fisto, Kolar, Cin Drallig, Depa Billaba, Eeth Koth, Qui-Gon, Tiin, Tau Idair, Scourge, Atris, Vrook, Bandon
1. Kenan, Ahsoka, Grand Inquisitor, Aayla Secura, Tiplee, Tiplar, Quinlan Vos, Luminara, Adi Gallia, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Even Piell, Kavar, Zez-Kai Ell, Visas, Bastila

1. Mortis Gods, Force Priestesses
2. Sidious, Bendu, Yoda, Luke Skywalker
3. Windu, Vader, Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, Mother Talzin
4. Quinlan Vos, Maul, Kenobi, Ahsoka Tano, Kirak Infila, Porter Engle
5. Kylo ren, Rey, Ventress, Grevious, Oppress, Eeth Koth, Lord Momin, Cere Junda, Dagan Gera, Savina Malagan, Pong Krell, Qui Gon
6. Ki Adi Mundi, Shaak Ti, Adi Gallia, Aayla Secura, Bariss Offee, Grand Inquisitor, Kit Fisto, Plo Koon, Avar Kriss, Kanan Jarrus, Depa Billaba, Luminara, Stellan Gios, Elzar Mann

^
Nice list. I would demote Ahsoka to league 5. And there is alot of mess in 5 and 6. Kanan, who couldn't beat seventh sis after he defeated Grand Inq in the same league with Fisto who was going to beat Grievous?

Well Fisto was going to beat a very early Grevious, he got more powerful over the course of the war. Anyway I can agree on Ahsoka being demoted to 5

I dont think that Grievous had improve his skill that much. He was, until the very end, inconsistent fighter. He was doing well against Kenobi during one of finał seasons of TCW, yet was stomped on their finał fight.

Anyway, its all about prequel. Rest I would scale on legends terms, and there are thousands of.confirmations that Palpatine > Valkoriona, yet I would place them on tje same tier.

Revan, by logic, is tier below Valkorion, Nihilus might be there as well, yet I would place him below Revan. No way that jokes like Sion are that high. Nyrris was amped, not above Maul at best

0. The Father
1. Abeloth(Full Power)/The Son/The Daughter/World Razer
2. Valkorion, Onimi, Sekot, Luke Skywalker
2.1. DE Palpatine, Sel-Makor, Soa
3. UnuThul, Lomi-Plo (?), Hero of Tython, Peak Outlander (maybe) Peak Revan (maybe)
4. Yoda, Anakin, Revan, Vaylin, Outlander

The rest: who cares