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Does it matter to you?

One thing i've always distrusted are religions that actively go around trying to convert/recruit people.
The nock on doors wont just go away types that want to give you pamphlets.

Are you in any way associated with this type of activity? Is it something your religion does?

And again, do YOU personally care what others choose to believe, and seek to turn people onto your way of thinking?

we all do to some extent or else we wouldn't bother expressing our opinions. but i can disagree and move on pretty quickly once i've said my piece.

I'm talking RL, not the internet.
Should have specified that...

i'm the same way in real life save for when i need to filter myself for practical reasons.

No worries, just wanted to clarify.
Sites like this are way different than RL in regards to how we behave.

Arguably those who try to convert actively believe they are doing others a favor, since they are essentially saving them -and thus saving themselves?-. At least in my experience of such context.

In general, if your religion makes you happy and you want others to be happy, there is nothing confusing about wanting to share that with them.

Not what i was asking, but thanks.

I did answer though, to me personally, it's not a big deal either way.

Didnt get that from your post.
Again, thanks, my bad for the confusion!

Survival of the fittest and our tribal instincts push us to have the biggest tribe with each of us at the head of it.

Religions are just tribal units and they all want world dominance.

If we did not feel this way, we would all be hermits and would not care about our tribal affiliations.

Social science 101.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

Regards
DL

Religions ate nothing of the sort but thats an interesting way to break it down.

Originally posted by riv6672
Religions ate nothing of the sort but thats an interesting way to break it down.

You disagree yet do not even attempt to correct showing how little you have thought of religions as they pertain to society.

Regards
DL

Shut up Satan

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Shut up Satan

Stop it! Satan doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Stop it! Satan doesn't exist.

My friend he does. Thats his biggest lie, to make the general population believe he does not exist.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
My friend he does. Thats his biggest lie, to make the general population believe he does not exist.

Satan is a mythological being. But more importantly, Satan is a scapegoat. Humans don't like to take blame for things that are rightfully their fault. So, we blame it on Satan. The truth is we are to blame for all of the evil in the world, and we don't need anyone to tempt us. We really can't fix our own problems until we stop believing in Satan, and own up.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
You disagree yet do not even attempt to correct showing how little you have thought of religions as they pertain to society.

Regards
DL
More like its not such a huge deal to me that i want to pursue the matter.
This actually pertains to the OP.
While i'm curious as to what you guys think, well, i dont care that you believe it.

Cool.

i care what others believe but only to an extent. basically if you believe weird shit that i think is just counter productive then it does irritate me a little. like creationism and aliens building the pyramids and dumb shit like that. but it won't make me dislike you at the end of the day we can agree to disagree and move on.

but if you believe stuff that seems vicious and really dangerous like some of the more extreme religious sects, not gonna name names but we probably all know, then yea i care cause that type of belief is really scary and needs to be stamped out.

but as far as do i care about everyone else being non-religious/atheist/agnostic/hell-bound just like me? no not really. i mean i guess it would be kind of easier for me in some regards but it's not really that big of a deal to me. and to be honest i find some religious rituals and antics entertaining even if i do think it's based on fake shit.

I think of religion as a personal thing, so, people who constantly put theirs in others' faces...i just dont appreciate that.

Edit:
I am of course talking about RL. Forums like this, its pretty much accepted that this is what we're all here to kvetch about.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
My friend he does. Thats his biggest lie, to make the general population believe he does not exist.

The biger lie is that a creator God exists.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by riv6672
More like its not such a huge deal to me that i want to pursue the matter.
This actually pertains to the OP.
While i'm curious as to what you guys think, well, i dont care that you believe it.

If you took the time for a garbage remark, you could have taken the same time to reach the information you did not give.

Looks like you just want to lie.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by riv6672
I think of religion as a personal thing, so, people who constantly put theirs in others' faces...i just dont appreciate that.

Edit:
I am of course talking about RL. Forums like this, its pretty much accepted that this is what we're all here to kvetch about.

Spirituality is private. Religions are not.
Personal went out the window the moment they ask us to subsidize or exempt their taxes.

Religions dip into even the non-believers pocket so that makes religions public.

Regards
DL

Well, excuse me for not caring what you replied to my quoted posts; you seem angry and trying to get a rise out of me.
Wasted effort, really.
I find you lacking in maturity, which is why i never post in your threads. In mine though, i'll show just slightly more respect than you show me.
Even garbage posts like yours serve to move the conversation along, after all.

Oderint dum metuant,
JR

Originally posted by riv6672
I think of religion as a personal thing, so, people who constantly put theirs in others' faces...i just dont appreciate that.

Edit:
I am of course talking about RL. Forums like this, its pretty much accepted that this is what we're all here to kvetch about. the way i look at it basically if i thought people were going to hell i would probably want to warn them about it too. i don't let that kind of shit get to me at all cause i feel like it's coming from the right place. i've never actually had an unpleasant experience with a proselytizer. i've had them give up on me and walk away in disappointment but that's about as negative as it gets.

I don't. Everyone can believe whatever they want as long as they don't try to impose me their beliefs.

I've had bad experiences with proselytizers, but nothing major.
Still, if they cant accept " live and let live" thats not ob me.

Originally posted by Reflassshh
I don't. Everyone can believe whatever they want as long as they don't try to impose me their beliefs.

You give no though to others who could use help?

For the evils of religion to grow, read any scripture literally.

Any and all harmless beliefs are allowed by Gnostic Christians. We know that any myth can be internalized for good results and as esoteric ecumenists, we enjoy knowledge of all the myths that man has created about Gods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

When there is a victim is when that view changes. Then you see why Christianity annihilated Gnostic Christianity. We do not let the evils of forced literalism go unopposed. To a tyrant like Constantine, we were poison. One of his first commands to his new Church was to kill off the free thinkers and of course, his new tool, his Church, did as bid. It was quite a ride for free thought for the next 1,000 years.

How can a Gnostic Christian, --- and any other free thinking moral person, --- not judge other's morals when seeing someone hurt other because of the same Church's teachings today?

Can you ignore such things if you have decent morals? Impossible. Especially with Islam pulling the same murderous, freedom stifling ****.

We must discriminate and judge constantly. Every law is a compulsion on all of us to judge.

It is my view that all right wing literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists, --- as well as those who do not believe. Literalists hurt their parent religions --- and everyone else, be he a believer or not. Literalists and the right wing of religions make us all into laughing stocks. Their God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution has got to go. So must beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic. These are all evil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2zhlDbMfDg

They also do much harm to their own fellow adherents.

African witches and Jesus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI

Jesus Camp 1of 3
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48b_1185215493

Death to Gays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuKLyGUHNE

For evil to grow my friend, all good people need do is nothing. Fight literalism when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL

Only when it affects my life. Which it has. Then I care, and it would easier if there was agreement. But in an evangelical sense, no.

There's some excellent memetic research on how and why religions have this sort of mentality built into them. It (the mentality) rewards converting others and becoming converted, and thus perpetuates the system. It's an institutionalized survival mechanism. In practice, adherents will talk about how it's saving the converts. And they really do believe that. But that's the societal face on the underlying procreative force driving most monotheistic religions, the story told to actually make it take root.

I really really hope that the religious system I believe in is true. Mormons believe that we pretty much judge ourselves. Not only do our actions but our feelings and thoughts behind those actions influence that Judgement.

Those who do not go to heaven are those that consciously choose to NOT go to heaven. In other words, a person makes a very well-informed decision not to want any part of paradise. Everyone gets a chance, a genuine chance, to accept God's plan. This means atheists in this life will get another chance in the next life before they get to move on to their judgement. If a person is approached in a bad part in their life, with an offering of the gospel, and they would definitely not accept the gospel under any circumstances, they get to accept it in the next. Basically, every single soul gets a chance to genuinely accept or reject the gospel. Everyone chose to be born into this life (we chose before we were born).

In this case, this system allows for a fair chance for everyone. The system is based on a set of choices and agency. Mercy is aloted to those that did not get a genuine chance (such as the atheist situation I described or if you're born retarded).

Lots of choices. Lots of outcomes. I think a truly merciful and loving God would offer all of these options. If my religious belief system is the most correct (that's what Mormons believe...we do not believe our system is perfect, we believe it is the most correct), then informed atheists are, on average, better than my Christian peers. This means my atheist pals are more likely to go to "heaven" than my Christian pals. That is due to our choices; on how they are determined as good, bad, or indifferent; being influenced by what we think of those choices. I've said this before but I'll say it again: if you think placing a magnet on a refrigerator is evil, then if you do it, it is counted as evil to you. You thought it was evil and did it anyway. Mercy comes into play if you were brainwashed and didn't have a genuine choice in the matter (because we do not have free will, we have limited free will).


Edit - To directly answer the thread question, no, I do not care if others believe my religion. This is because I think a person can go to heaven and be a staunch anti-theistic atheist as long as that person lived their life, generally, as good, and thought they lived their life as good. If they thought they were doing the righteous thing by stopping religious hate and "religious disease", then that may actually be righteous. There is probably a line with people thinking that mass murder is righteous such as Hitler's ideas regarding Jews. I think that this is accounted for in our "holiest of holy" thoughts where we genuinely do not think genocide is a righteous decision. I think that, deep down, Hitler knew what he was doing was wrong. But that is for God to decide because He supposedly has a perfect knowledge of our decisions included how those decisions were informed.

Huh, good reading, thanks D and D!
I think you guys may be representative of the majority.

Originally posted by riv6672
I think you guys may be representative of the majority.

Always a dubious trait to be, but I'll take it.

I think, mostly, people don't care. Our mentality seems to default toward "live and let live" at least in America. And this is from someone who has lived in the Midwest his whole life, among very religious areas. But the religions themselves care, if that makes sense. There's an evangelical undercurrent in even relatively benign religions, and you see its affects in people who regularly attend services. They might not say anything otherwise, but the doctrines they're exposed to sort of nudge them toward it. But it doesn't come naturally. It needs such prodding.

Of course, then you have those who openly and actively try to convert, but that's a different sociological, and psychological, beast entirely.

Originally posted by Digi
Always a dubious trait to be, but I'll take it.

I think, mostly, people don't care. Our mentality seems to default toward "live and let live" at least in America. And this is from someone who has lived in the Midwest his whole life, among very religious areas. But the religions themselves care, if that makes sense. There's an evangelical undercurrent in even relatively benign religions, and you see its affects in people who regularly attend services. They might not say anything otherwise, but the doctrines they're exposed to sort of nudge them toward it. But it doesn't come naturally. It needs such prodding.

Of course, then you have those who openly and actively try to convert, but that's a different sociological, and psychological, beast entirely.

Imagine how much better America would be if all religions emphasized strong monetary charitable contributions and service/labor. The social programs we would have would be second to none, no doubt.


Dammit, if only Christians actually followed their beliefs.

Yes.

Ya

agreed too

Originally posted by Digi
Always a dubious trait to be, but I'll take it.

Originally posted by Digi
Only when it affects my life. Which it has. Then I care, and it would easier if there was agreement. But in an evangelical sense, no.

There's some excellent memetic research on how and why religions have this sort of mentality built into them. It (the mentality) rewards converting others and becoming converted, and thus perpetuates the system. It's an institutionalized survival mechanism. In practice, adherents will talk about how it's saving the converts. And they really do believe that. But that's the societal face on the underlying procreative force driving most monotheistic religions, the story told to actually make it take root.

It should be obvious to see how religion has been used to promote in-group mentality which promoted solidarity (but at the exclusion of the out-group). The belief that God is on our side, not yours. I think that mindset is increasingly at odds in the modern world and with science.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by dadudemon
I really really hope that the religious system I believe in is true. Mormons believe that we pretty much judge ourselves. Not only do our actions but our feelings and thoughts behind those actions influence that Judgement.

Those who do not go to heaven are those that consciously choose to NOT go to heaven. In other words, a person makes a very well-informed decision not to want any part of paradise. Everyone gets a chance, a genuine chance, to accept God's plan. This means atheists in this life will get another chance in the next life before they get to move on to their judgement. If a person is approached in a bad part in their life, with an offering of the gospel, and they would definitely not accept the gospel under any circumstances, they get to accept it in the next. Basically, every single soul gets a chance to genuinely accept or reject the gospel. Everyone chose to be born into this life (we chose before we were born).

In this case, this system allows for a fair chance for everyone. The system is based on a set of choices and agency. Mercy is aloted to those that did not get a genuine chance (such as the atheist situation I described or if you're born retarded).

Lots of choices. Lots of outcomes. I think a truly merciful and loving God would offer all of these options. If my religious belief system is the most correct (that's what Mormons believe...we do not believe our system is perfect, we believe it is the most correct), then informed atheists are, on average, better than my Christian peers. This means my atheist pals are more likely to go to "heaven" than my Christian pals. That is due to our choices; on how they are determined as good, bad, or indifferent; being influenced by what we think of those choices. I've said this before but I'll say it again: if you think placing a magnet on a refrigerator is evil, then if you do it, it is counted as evil to you. You thought it was evil and did it anyway. Mercy comes into play if you were brainwashed and didn't have a genuine choice in the matter (because we do not have free will, we have limited free will).


Edit - To directly answer the thread question, no, I do not care if others believe my religion. This is because I think a person can go to heaven and be a staunch anti-theistic atheist as long as that person lived their life, generally, as good, and thought they lived their life as good. If they thought they were doing the righteous thing by stopping religious hate and "religious disease", then that may actually be righteous. There is probably a line with people thinking that mass murder is righteous such as Hitler's ideas regarding Jews. I think that this is accounted for in our "holiest of holy" thoughts where we genuinely do not think genocide is a righteous decision. I think that, deep down, Hitler knew what he was doing was wrong. But that is for God to decide because He supposedly has a perfect knowledge of our decisions included how those decisions were informed.

You began with pure Gnostic Christian ideas but then went where one must believe in a lot of woo which kills Mormonism as a decent and moral theology.

If your theology must have magic and miracles then it is not worthy.

All Mormonism has become is another idol worshiping cult.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
My friend he does. Thats his biggest lie, to make the general population believe he does not exist.


QFT, TI. He's the most cunning deceiver in all of creation and convincing the world that he (nor God) exists is his greatest trick.

Originally posted by Star428
QFT, TI. He's the most cunning deceiver in all of creation and convincing the world that he (nor God) exists is his greatest trick.
Satan is mythology. He was made up by humans. The fact he does not exist is not his master plan. Humans are to blame for all of the evil in the world.

Was that just oddly worded or did you just say a myth doesnt have that particular plan?

there are some people who knows someone is really existing, but still pretends to believe it's non-existent... slip of the tongue, maybe...

It seems Shakyamunison is one of the multitude of poor souls who have been successfully deceived by Satan.

Originally posted by dyajeep
there are some people who knows someone is really existing, but still pretends to believe it's non-existent... slip of the tongue, maybe...


Yes, those are agents of Satan who realize that he does actually exists but claim he's a myth. But, most are actually deceived into believing he doesn't exist and are not seving him willingly by denying his existence but still serving his cause nonetheless. They are just his poor deceived pawns while the ones serving him willingly are more like his knights so-to-speak. Not that he actually cares about any of them, of course.

I wasnt implying anything like that, but its an interesting couple of theories...

Originally posted by Star428
QFT, TI. He's the most cunning deceiver in all of creation and convincing the world that he (nor God) exists is his greatest trick.

What do you think of the term, --- justice delayed is justice denied.

Does that ring true to you?

If it does, then why did God reward Satan with dominion over the earth instead of hell?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Star428
It seems Shakyamunison is one of the multitude of poor souls who have been successfully deceived by Satan.

Kind of hard to be deceived by something that doesn't exist.

Originally posted by riv6672
Was that just oddly worded or did you just say a myth doesnt have that particular plan?

It was late, and I was sleepy. What I meant was: The idea that satan wants you to believe that he does not exist is not proof that he does exist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It was late, and I was sleepy. What I meant was: The idea that satan wants you to believe that he does not exist is not proof that he does exist.

Using logic and reason against superstitious nonsense is not fair play to use against the delusions of others.

Tsk, tsk.

But do keep it up.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Using logic and reason against superstitious nonsense is not fair play to use against the delusions of others.

Tsk, tsk.

But do keep it up.

Regards
DL



That's why my backup is "Unicorns only dance in the spring time." But that seems to piss them off for some reason.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison


That's why my backup is "Unicorns only dance in the spring time." But that seems to piss them off for some reason.

Due to their WORD saying that they only dance in the winter for warmth.

How dare anyone doubt their Godinabook.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Due to their WORD saying that they only dance in the winter for warmth.

How dare anyone doubt their Godinabook.

Regards
DL

Yes, that's the point. But it is the same thing they do.

Nope I don't think its a big deal at all. People can believe what they want. The only thing that is a real problem is people calling other people out...let me explain.

If a Christian hears an Atheist sneeze and says "God bless you" the Atheist can go ape shit and say "there is no such thing and you are a fool to believe" or they can stop and think "They believe differently then me but hey they are just trying to be nice". Same goes the other way around. People need to accept others believe differently and just because of that doesn't mean you shouldn't be respectful of someone elses beliefs.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
Nope I don't think its a big deal at all. People can believe what they want. The only thing that is a real problem is people calling other people out...let me explain.

If a Christian hears an Atheist sneeze and says "God bless you" the Atheist can go ape shit and say "there is no such thing and you are a fool to believe" or they can stop and think "They believe differently then me but hey they are just trying to be nice". Same goes the other way around. People need to accept others believe differently and just because of that doesn't mean you shouldn't be respectful of someone elses beliefs.


Well said.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
Nope I don't think its a big deal at all. People can believe what they want. The only thing that is a real problem is people calling other people out...let me explain.

If a Christian hears an Atheist sneeze and says "God bless you" the Atheist can go ape shit and say "there is no such thing and you are a fool to believe" or they can stop and think "They believe differently then me but hey they are just trying to be nice". Same goes the other way around. People need to accept others believe differently and just because of that doesn't mean you shouldn't be respectful of someone elses beliefs.

But can you really blame the Atheist? Atheists don't tell people that they are going to hell, or that they are being deceived by a mythological creature.

If all was equal, then you would be correct. But all is not equal.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It was late, and I was sleepy. What I meant was: The idea that satan wants you to believe that he does not exist is not proof that he does exist.
I thought so. Appreciate the response.

the problem is that there are people who do not understand Christianity... they see this particular verse which is most probably taken out-of-context and go haywire...

Christianity does not condemn people to hell - ever... i can give more credible Bible verses if you want... or you can just take my word for it...

**************************************************
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******************************

now, let me ask you guys... why would an atheist (in his right senses) be offended or insulted if - and only if - some ignorant "christian-wannabe" told him he's going to hell or he's deceived by satan - when he does not believe in hell or satan? where's the logic there? can someone pitch in and help me out?

because if i were an atheist, i don't freakin' care if you tell me that because i don't believe that those exist...

not unless...

*ahem*

that person knows that hell and satan exist, but just PRETENDS to believe they're non-existent...

then, he'll surely be offended...

such hatred on Christianity...

if only some people try to shut up, and think, and respect others' beliefs, especially if you don't fully understand the belief you are criticizing...

Originally posted by dyajeep
the problem is that there are people who do not understand Christianity... they see this particular verse which is most probably taken out-of-context and go haywire...

Christianity does not condemn people to hell - ever... i can give more credible Bible verses if you want... or you can just take my word for it...

**************************************************
**************************************************
******************************

now, let me ask you guys... why would an atheist (in his right senses) be offended or insulted if - and only if - some ignorant "christian-wannabe" told him he's going to hell or he's deceived by satan - when he does not believe in hell or satan? where's the logic there? can someone pitch in and help me out?

because if i were an atheist, i don't freakin' care if you tell me that because i don't believe that those exist...

not unless...

*ahem*

that person knows that hell and satan exist, but just PRETENDS to believe they're non-existent...

then, he'll surely be offended...

such hatred on Christianity...

if only some people try to shut up, and think, and respect others' beliefs, especially if you don't fully understand the belief you are criticizing...

Would you be offended if I call you an *******, even if you do not believe you are one?

Originally posted by dyajeep
if only some people try to shut up, and think, and respect others' beliefs, especially if you don't fully understand the belief you are criticizing...

Next time you think about informing some non-Christian and/or Atheist that they're going to hell, not following the correct beliefs etc for not believing what you believe , apply this same logic you just used

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
Nope I don't think its a big deal at all. People can believe what they want. The only thing that is a real problem is people calling other people out...let me explain.

If a Christian hears an Atheist sneeze and says "God bless you" the Atheist can go ape shit and say "there is no such thing and you are a fool to believe" or they can stop and think "They believe differently then me but hey they are just trying to be nice". Same goes the other way around. People need to accept others believe differently and just because of that doesn't mean you shouldn't be respectful of someone elses beliefs. man i've never seen that kind of shit happen irl i just always hear christians talking about it as if it happens. like really what kind of dick is going to start an argument over a sneeze.

plus when people say bless you i don't even think about religion it's just one of those weird customs that you have to observe. to me them saying 'bless you' really translates to "i acknowledge that you just sneezed" which seems weird to me but i go along with it cause it's normal.

Originally posted by red g jacks
man i've never seen that kind of shit happen irl i just always hear christians talking about it as if it happens. like really what kind of dick is going to start an argument over a sneeze.

plus when people say bless you i don't even think about religion it's just one of those weird customs that you have to observe. to me them saying 'bless you' really translates to "i acknowledge that you just sneezed" which seems weird to me but i go along with it cause it's normal.

It goes way back to the time of the plague.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Would you be offended if I call you an *******, even if you do not believe you are one?

wrong analogy... it's not about what i believe i am, but it's if what i believe exists...

again, the premise: atheists (and such) do not believe in satan and hell, for them, satan and hell does not exist... if (this is a big "if", i'm not saying i will, but "if" i call an atheist that he's going to hell, why would he be offended? if i were the atheist, i would just laugh it off...





Originally posted by Robtard
Next time you think about informing some non-Christian and/or Atheist that they're going to hell, not following the correct beliefs etc for not believing what you believe , apply this same logic you just used

but i don't...

i just said, Christianity does not condemn people to hell, ever... so if anyone tell you you're going to hell, i'm the first one to doubt that that person is a Christian because that is not a Christian doctrine...

Ah, "No True Scotsman".

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Ah, "No True Scotsman".

you can put it that way, it seems... not a problem on that...

"Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples,"
John 8:31

strongly implies if you do not continue abiding Jesus' words, then you're not a true disciple of His...

Originally posted by dyajeep
wrong analogy... it's not about what i believe i am, but it's if what i believe exists...

again, the premise: atheists (and such) do not believe in satan and hell, for them, satan and hell does not exist... if (this is a big "if", i'm not saying i will, but "if" i call an atheist that he's going to hell, why would he be offended? if i were the atheist, i would just laugh it off...







but i don't...

i just said, Christianity does not condemn people to hell, ever... so if anyone tell you you're going to hell, i'm the first one to doubt that that person is a Christian because that is not a Christian doctrine... not that i would really care but to answer your question, maybe he'd be offended that you believe in a god and moral system that would see him tortured for eternity. basically you're telling him you think he's a ****ed up person who deserves all the suffering in the world. even if he thinks you're wrong he might be offended that you see him in this way.

Originally posted by red g jacks
not that i would really care but to answer your question, maybe he'd be offended that you believe in a god and moral system that would see him tortured for eternity. basically you're telling him you think he's a ****ed up person who deserves all the suffering in the world. even if he thinks you're wrong he might be offended that you see him in this way.

well, you can put it that way... although my initial reaction if i were the atheist is to just laugh my a$$ off of that remark...

kidding aside, i just went with the flow on that argument - as i believe that no true Christian will ever condemn a person to hell (no true Scotsman, yeah)...

I've met, unfortunately a LOT of true Christians who think that way, though. To their credit they dont go around saying it, but, if pressed, they have no problem saying so.
Maybe the Army attracts very devout Christians.

Originally posted by riv6672
To their credit they dont go around saying it,

fair enough for me... so don't press them! lol...

Ha, yeah. Religion and politics, i avoided both conversations with other Soldiers...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes, that's the point. But it is the same thing they do.

Indeed. Literalists have redefined what fool means.

If you consider the Dark Ages and Inquisition were based on faith without facts, you recognize how faith created fools and murderers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
Nope I don't think its a big deal at all. People can believe what they want. The only thing that is a real problem is people calling other people out...let me explain.

If a Christian hears an Atheist sneeze and says "God bless you" the Atheist can go ape shit and say "there is no such thing and you are a fool to believe" or they can stop and think "They believe differently then me but hey they are just trying to be nice". Same goes the other way around. People need to accept others believe differently and just because of that doesn't mean you shouldn't be respectful of someone elses beliefs.

Do you respect the beliefs shown below?

For the evils of religion to grow, read any scripture literally.

Any and all harmless beliefs are allowed by Gnostic Christians. We know that any myth can be internalized for good results and as esoteric ecumenists, we enjoy knowledge of all the myths that man has created about Gods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

When there is a victim is when that view changes. Then you see why Christianity annihilated Gnostic Christianity. We do not let the evils of forced literalism go unopposed. To a tyrant like Constantine, we were poison. One of his first commands to his new Church was to kill off the free thinkers and of course, his new tool, his Church, did as bid. It was quite a ride for free thought for the next 1,000 years.

How can a Gnostic Christian, --- and any other free thinking moral person, --- not judge other's morals when seeing someone hurt other because of the same Church's teachings today?

Can you ignore such things if you have decent morals? Impossible. Especially with Islam pulling the same murderous, freedom stifling ****.

We must discriminate and judge constantly. Every law is a compulsion on all of us to judge.

It is my view that all right wing literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists, --- as well as those who do not believe. Literalists hurt their parent religions --- and everyone else, be he a believer or not. Literalists and the right wing of religions make us all into laughing stocks. Their God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution has got to go. So must beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic. These are all evil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2zhlDbMfDg

They also do much harm to their own fellow adherents.

African witches and Jesus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI

Jesus Camp 1of 3
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48b_1185215493

Death to Gays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuKLyGUHNE

For evil to grow my friend, all good people need do is nothing. Fight literalism when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by dyajeep
wrong analogy... it's not about what i believe i am, but it's if what i believe exists...

again, the premise: atheists (and such) do not believe in satan and hell, for them, satan and hell does not exist... if (this is a big "if", i'm not saying i will, but "if" i call an atheist that he's going to hell, why would he be offended? if i were the atheist, i would just laugh it off...



You do not seem to be aware that atheists just do not like to see otherwise intelligent people lost to real belief in the supernatural.

I guess that you have not seen the surveys that show the numbers of Christians who have been hurt by your belief in hell and Satan and the notion that they were born for hell and must somehow extricate themselves from God's condemnation.

Christians are intentionally cruel to their children by lying to them about supernatural and idiotic superstitions.

Atheist have more heart and concern for their fellow man than Christians.

You just do not like the taste of the medicine that cures foolish faith.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by dyajeep
you can put it that way, it seems... not a problem on that...

"Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples,"
John 8:31

strongly implies if you do not continue abiding Jesus' words, then you're not a true disciple of His...


He also said that any who believed in him could do what he did and more.

Note how in 2,000 tears there has not been even one believer.

If there would have been even one, we would all know it.

So who are all these people who say they believe and obviously do not?

Is that also you?

If not, show what you can do. Believer.

Regards
DL

Entertaining, but needlessly confrontational.

Originally posted by riv6672

Entertaining, but needlessly confrontational.

So it is confrontational to ask Christians to walk their talk.

Got you. But I do not agree. To agree would be to promote hypocrisy and Christianity is already up to their eyes in that.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
So it is confrontational to ask Christians to walk their talk.

Walking their talk would be being generous and helping others as they'd like to be helped themselves, correct?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But can you really blame the Atheist? Atheists don't tell people that they are going to hell, or that they are being deceived by a mythological creature.

If all was equal, then you would be correct. But all is not equal.

I think it depends per person. I know Atheists that seem to think it is their duty to jump down the throat of anyone who says anything about religion. That is just as much a problem as someone who screams people will go to hell for not repenting.

Originally posted by red g jacks
man i've never seen that kind of shit happen irl i just always hear christians talking about it as if it happens. like really what kind of dick is going to start an argument over a sneeze.

plus when people say bless you i don't even think about religion it's just one of those weird customs that you have to observe. to me them saying 'bless you' really translates to "i acknowledge that you just sneezed" which seems weird to me but i go along with it cause it's normal.

lol it was a "for example" type of scenario. Point is if someone believes differently then you but they are trying to be generous and their beliefs show through a little then that should be okay. People should accept that they are just trying to be generous.

Originally posted by Star428
Well said.

Thank You!

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
I think it depends per person. I know Atheists that seem to think it is their duty to jump down the throat of anyone who says anything about religion. That is just as much a problem as someone who screams people will go to hell for not repenting.



lol it was a "for example" type of scenario. Point is if someone believes differently then you but they are trying to be generous and their beliefs show through a little then that should be okay. People should accept that they are just trying to be generous. yea i know i was just pointing out i've seen a bunch of random christians bring up this exact scenario but i've never actually encountered it irl. it seems like a sort of hyperbole of how arrogant atheists can be that basically was all sparked off from a dane cook joke. i have encountered plenty of annoying and arrogant atheists but that kind of scenario doesn't actually happen in my experience. but generally i agree with you, people should try to get along and not take every opportunity to preach. but at the end of the day i love a good argument so anyone who comes at me with the good news is just gonna be cannon fodder.

Originally posted by red g jacks
yea i know i was just pointing out i've seen a bunch of random christians bring up this exact scenario but i've never actually encountered it irl. it seems like a sort of hyperbole of how arrogant atheists can be that basically was all sparked off from a dane cook joke. i have encountered plenty of annoying and arrogant atheists but that kind of scenario doesn't actually happen in my experience. but generally i agree with you, people should try to get along and not take every opportunity to preach. but at the end of the day i love a good argument so anyone who comes at me with the good news is just gonna be cannon fodder.

Lol, nicely put. I've used the word atheist for its shock value, but only when I'm not the initiating party. I've also yet to meet the stereotypical angry atheist outside obscure parts of Youtube and other corners of the internet. Obviously they exist; it's statistical inevitability. But I can't help but feel like most of the accounts of them are, at best, hyperbole.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
I think it depends per person. I know Atheists that seem to think it is their duty to jump down the throat of anyone who says anything about religion. That is just as much a problem as someone who screams people will go to hell for not repenting.
...

I have met both types, but the numbers are not equal. There are far more Christians who will tell you that you are going to hell, then atheists that get upset about religious talk.

Originally posted by dyajeep
wrong analogy... it's not about what i believe i am, but it's if what i believe exists...

again, the premise: atheists (and such) do not believe in satan and hell, for them, satan and hell does not exist... if (this is a big "if", i'm not saying i will, but "if" i call an atheist that he's going to hell, why would he be offended? if i were the atheist, i would just laugh it off...

Originally posted by red g jacks
not that i would really care but to answer your question, maybe he'd be offended that you believe in a god and moral system that would see him tortured for eternity. basically you're telling him you think he's a ****ed up person who deserves all the suffering in the world. even if he thinks you're wrong he might be offended that you see him in this way.

Originally posted by red g jacks
yea i know i was just pointing out i've seen a bunch of random christians bring up this exact scenario but i've never actually encountered it irl. it seems like a sort of hyperbole of how arrogant atheists can be that basically was all sparked off from a dane cook joke. i have encountered plenty of annoying and arrogant atheists but that kind of scenario doesn't actually happen in my experience. but generally i agree with you, people should try to get along and not take every opportunity to preach. but at the end of the day i love a good argument so anyone who comes at me with the good news is just gonna be cannon fodder.

Well just to be clear in my originating post I wasn't singling out Atheists. Just the first example I thought of. I personally know an Atheist that claims he feels constantly discriminated against for being Atheist. However, anytime anyone says anything about religion (even over social media) he feels the need to call it out. He acts as if people that believe are morons and its his job to "fix" it. It doesn't have to be comments even directed at him but he goes nuts. I have also encountered religious types that do the same type of thing if you make any insinuation about not believing or believing something else. So no I haven't actually encountered someone lose it over a sneeze but things just as meaningless.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I have met both types, but the numbers are not equal. There are far more Christians who will tell you that you are going to hell, then atheists that get upset about religious talk. That is true but to me that shouldn't change much of anything. Just because one side is out numbered by more non sense shouting loons then the other doesn't mean the other side should join in.

If no one believes it's as if a lot of people are telling you you're mean. It's a feedback loop, that's how you know when you're right and when you're wrong, when others believe you.

The trick is being able to tell when they're being earnest.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
So it is confrontational to ask Christians to walk their talk.

Regards
DL
I didnt say IT was confrontational, i said YOU were needlessly confrontational.
Guess i wasnt clear.

Oderint Dum Metuant
JR

Originally posted by riv6672
I didnt say IT was confrontational, i said YOU were needlessly confrontational.
Guess i wasnt clear.

Oderint Dum Metuant
JR

Yes, I am quite assertive. I do not like lies nor people lying to themselves.

All religions are based on myths and those who do not believe that are lying to themselves and that is not a good way to go through life.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
Well just to be clear in my originating post I wasn't singling out Atheists. Just the first example I thought of. I personally know an Atheist that claims he feels constantly discriminated against for being Atheist. However, anytime anyone says anything about religion (even over social media) he feels the need to call it out. He acts as if people that believe are morons and its his job to "fix" it. It doesn't have to be comments even directed at him but he goes nuts. I have also encountered religious types that do the same type of thing if you make any insinuation about not believing or believing something else. So no I haven't actually encountered someone lose it over a sneeze but things just as meaningless.
it's cool, you didn't offend me or anything i just saw that example pop up so many times by now from random people that i felt like commenting on it.

on an semi-related note there was some kid in one of my classes a while back that every time someone sneezed he would say "bless you by the god of your choice." the first time he said it he got a few chuckles but then he just kept saying it every time someone sneezed and it was just weird.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Yes, I am quite assertive. I do not like lies nor people lying to themselves.

All religions are based on myths and those who do not believe that are lying to themselves and that is not a good way to go through life.

Regards
DL
I'd say you were sanctimonious and closed minded, personally.
Also not a good way to go through life.
But thats the last i'll speak of it here, as nothing will come of it.
Back to the topic...

Oderint Dum Metuant
JR


Originally posted by red g jacks
on an semi-related note there was some kid in one of my classes a while back that every time someone sneezed he would say "bless you by the god of your choice." the first time he said it he got a few chuckles but then he just kept saying it every time someone sneezed and it was just weird.
I think thats kind of cool, actually!
If you ever see him again tell him to use gesundheit. German for good health.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
...That is true but to me that shouldn't change much of anything. Just because one side is out numbered by more non sense shouting loons then the other doesn't mean the other side should join in.

So, you don't believe in affirmative action? After all, I don't remember reading, in history, about atheists burning Christians at the stake.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Do you really think someone else can pay your dues and allow you to shirk your just reward?

Nope. I'd be surprised if any theologian worth a dime interpreted redemption as how you describe though. Religion teaches personal responsability.

Originally posted by Bentley
Nope. I'd be surprised if any theologian worth a dime interpreted redemption as how you describe though. Religion teaches personal responsability.
When you say that religion teaches personal responsibility, what do you mean?
Are you talking about Christianity or religion in general?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, you don't believe in affirmative action? After all, I don't remember reading, in history, about atheists burning Christians at the stake. I believe that there are instances that can push someone to feel the need to "fight back" but is there a need? I don't side with one or another but if a Christian decides to attack someone else based on belief what would one gain by returning the attack?


Past is the past though. Maybe there are still religion nuts out there but I doubt there will be another crusade or witch trial. So I don't think its fair to judge any religion based on a bloody past. I yet again have to place responsibility on the person as apposed to their religion.


Originally posted by red g jacks
it's cool, you didn't offend me or anything i just saw that example pop up so many times by now from random people that i felt like commenting on it.

on an semi-related note there was some kid in one of my classes a while back that every time someone sneezed he would say "bless you by the god of your choice." the first time he said it he got a few chuckles but then he just kept saying it every time someone sneezed and it was just weird.

lol at least he was being considerate I suppose.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
...Past is the past though. Maybe there are still religion nuts out there but I doubt there will be another crusade or witch trial. So I don't think its fair to judge any religion based on a bloody past. I yet again have to place responsibility on the person as apposed to their religion...

There could be a bloody future.

http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/19539/ready-rebuild-temple/#h21qZuF8yErZ2WJt.97

I think people should believe in Jesus.

Originally posted by Wonder Man
I think people should believe in Jesus.

Jesus is a Bodhisattva in my religion, and a prophet in Islam. Therefore, there are a lot of people who believe in Jesus. They just don't believe that same as you do.

Exactly. Its the well, devil in the details that gets people arguing many times.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
When you say that religion teaches personal responsibility, what do you mean?
Are you talking about Christianity or religion in general?

Neither in particular.

Someone at a party i was at tonight tried engaging me in a religous convrrsation, since she found out i'm Asatru and she's a hardcore Catholic. I said i only talked religion online.

Originally posted by Bentley
Nope. I'd be surprised if any theologian worth a dime interpreted redemption as how you describe though. Religion teaches personal responsability.

If they are to take personal responsibility then why would they need a scapegoat Jesus as the sacrifice that takes away their responsibility?

If they stepped up to it then there is no need for a sacrifice.

Right?

Regards
DL

Google is our friend.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If they are to take personal responsibility then why would they need a scapegoat Jesus as the sacrifice that takes away their responsibility?

If they stepped up to it then there is no need for a sacrifice.

Right?

Regards
DL

Before Jesus they killed animals to escape responsability.

After christian redemption nothing is guaranteed, you still have to take personal reponsability, assumedly following the example of someone who died for the sake of others -reponsable not only for yourself but the future of others?-.

That wasn't the morality in the second half of the Bible?

it's hard for me to consider it personal responsibility when you don't get punished for your crimes.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If they are to take personal responsibility then why would they need a scapegoat Jesus as the sacrifice that takes away their responsibility?

If they stepped up to it then there is no need for a sacrifice.

Right?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by red g jacks
it's hard for me to consider it personal responsibility when you don't get punished for your crimes.

Originally posted by red g jacks
it's hard for me to consider it personal responsibility when you don't get punished for your crimes.

Justice = punishment? mmm

yea if you deserve punishment then justice is you receiving that punishment, not someone else receiving it on your behalf so you can be inspired by what a great person they are. just my opinion.

Originally posted by red g jacks
yea if you deserve punishment then justice is you receiving that punishment, not someone else receiving it on your behalf so you can be inspired by what a great person they are. just my opinion.

Without focusing in the Jesus example, part of the vision you suggest gives a very personal responsability on human acts.

I understand your take on justice, but it's limited so morality is obliged to go beyond just punishment. Condeemning bad acts won't make the effects of such acts disappear, if all your justice and all your responsability ends with death you're not building for the future.

Probably the christian argument on justice is weird because the teachings aren't really about that. Jesus doesn't seem to make a huge argument on justice, I consider he focuses in responsability (not just personal responsability), given that he died knowing he was wrongly accused.

Originally posted by Bentley
I understand your take on justice, but it's limited so morality is obliged to go beyond just punishment. Condeemning bad acts won't make the effects of such acts disappear, if all your justice and all your responsability ends with death you're not building for the future.
i understand that point but at the end of the day no justice system is perfect, really the best thing we can do at this point is to mete out personal responsibility through punishment in order to deter crime as well as to separate the dangerous elements from society.

i look at it like this: if i was good friends with charles manson and i somehow convinced him to be a better person and in exchange agreed to take on his prison sentence for him, is that justice? to me it's kind of silly. i take this example cause it was basically the argument christians have tried to recruit me with, saying something along the lines of "what if you committed a crime and you had a friend who would take your prison sentence for you, wouldn't that make him a great friend?" and my response was that it might make him a great friend, but it's wrong for me to accept that agreement and would make me a shitty friend to do so.

Well, those are some twisted arguments indeed. The problem I have with that argumentation is that it places you as an outsider just receiving help from Jesus, you're being sold a passive religion which is a half-ass*d religion as an extension. That and I think is quite liberal as a Bible reading, but that's secondary.

To their defense, selling responsability is kind of hard. "Hey man, come here, you'll die for others to build a better world" isn't an awesome line to reel people in either

but to back track a little it's kind of odd to question that punishment = justice to me when the very premise of christianity relies on the assumption that you deserve punishment for your sins. if punishment isn't justice then why should people be punished for their sins in the first place?

Originally posted by riv6672
Does it matter to you?

One thing i've always distrusted are religions that actively go around trying to convert/recruit people.
The nock on doors wont just go away types that want to give you pamphlets.

Are you in any way associated with this type of activity? Is it something your religion does?

And again, do YOU personally care what others choose to believe, and seek to turn people onto your way of thinking?

We all get annoyed at the door to door salesmen. But at least you could choose not to answer the door.

I had to face a group in college, whom I mosty hung with through association with a few other friends. And one day, they decided to make the pitch.

Most uncomfortable moments of my college experience.

But I can't fault religious groups for recruitment, any more then I can fault non believers for trying to argue their peace. The only types I can't stand, are those who can't take a hint and drop a subject, or try and play "King of the Mountain/convince everyone how wrong they are" games, no matter the subject.

Originally posted by red g jacks
but to back track a little it's kind of odd to question that punishment = justice to me when the very premise of christianity relies on the assumption that you deserve punishment for your sins. if punishment isn't justice then why should people be punished for their sins in the first place?

Well, there is also mercy. The very existence of mercy makes it so justice and punishment are not strictly the same thing. There are maybe other differences here and there if you go deep in the doctrine, but mercy is pretty major.

The part of punishment in christianity it's a huge topic, very divisive. Some of it's theological elements are hard to swallow for most people, the implications of going to hell alone are enough to inspire conflict (check Shaky and BWR discussing for example). If you ask me, those problems are likely because the doctrine was never meant to be about punishment, and that such elements are very losely defined.

mercy as in, taking mercy on the sinner after he sinned by not punishing him, right? but that still means he deserved the punishment for sinning. which still seems to imply that punishment and justice do go hand in hand.

maybe i'm missing something here.. i'm thinking about it basically like this: before jesus, the appropriate response to sin was punishment. after jesus, if you don't accept his sacrifice on your behalf then the appropriate response to sin is still punishment. basically the only thing saving you from punishment is the fact that someone else was punished for you. cause for whatever reason god demands punishment for sin.

Originally posted by red g jacks
mercy as in, taking mercy on the sinner after he sinned by not punishing him, right? but that still means he deserved the punishment for sinning. which still seems to imply that punishment and justice do go hand in hand.

Mercy is not something exclusive to God, Jesus encourages his disciples to forgive.

I kind of wonder if punishment was expected for personal offenses too. In the West duels were considered to be outside the jurisdiction of the law for a good deal of time, I think it's obvious that they were harmful for society in general and then became illegal.

Originally posted by red g jacks
maybe i'm missing something here.. i'm thinking about it basically like this: before jesus, the appropriate response to sin was punishment. after jesus, if you don't accept his sacrifice on your behalf then the appropriate response to sin is still punishment. basically the only thing saving you from punishment is the fact that someone else was punished for you. cause for whatever reason god demands punishment for sin.

Punishment was never meant to be mandatory.

There was punishment from sin in one side, but you could also buy god, in a way, by sacrificing an animal and paying money to the priests your sins were cleansed. After Jesus the concept of buying your faults is no longer valid, but punishment is still not obligatory. Jesus's death replaces the old animal sacrifices.

You're probably asking yourself "why did I have to sacrifice animals to begin with"? Well, as I said before, doing a bad deed can get you punishment, but it still doesn't undo the damage. The sacrifice is meant to restore that balance, you're giving away something to make up for the evil you did. If you offended someone or -for example- killed someone's son, then you also gave them some sort of payment, but the "sin" side of the equation was carried by animal sacrifices (sin read as an offense towards God).

It was a rather complex system back in the day.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There could be a bloody future.

http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/19539/ready-rebuild-temple/#h21qZuF8yErZ2WJt.97

I really wont argue with that..I mean that would certainly be stirred up because of religion. A long time ago I could understand it to a degree. Threats of going to hell and promises of redemption but I feel like todays time should know better. At least have better sense. But then again there is senseless blood shed that has nothing to do with religion so I guess I should know better lol

Originally posted by Bentley
Mercy is not something exclusive to God, Jesus encourages his disciples to forgive.i understand that. wasn't trying to imply that it was. but let's say you don't forgive someone for a crime and decide to press charges instead. that's still just since they committed the crime and deserve to pay for it.
maybe not, but it is still warranted at the end of the day is it not? like say god decides not to shed mercy on you for a sin and punishes you instead... is that unjust? if not then the punishment is basically justice. mercy is basically god being a nice guy. if the mercy is justice too then biblical justice and morality seems even more arbitrary than human justice and morality. basically boils down to "whatever god decides to do in any particular occasion."
yea.. complex is one way of putting it. it seems a bit nonsensical to me to think that offering a sacrifice to god could cleanse you of a sin. that sacrifice doesn't erase the bad deed any more than you being punished would erase the bad deed.

since i can't edit i'll say that after thinking about it i can sort of make sense of the animal sacrifices. they think that by basically giving up a portion of something which is gonna hurt them financially they are showing that they have taken a hit basically to pay for their sins. almost like you have to pay fines for some crimes instead of jail time. is that right? i can sorta understand why ancient people would think that way if so.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i understand that. wasn't trying to imply that it was. but let's say you don't forgive someone for a crime and decide to press charges instead. that's still just since they committed the crime and deserve to pay for it.

Nothing stops you from forgiving and denouncing a crime at the same time. Forgiveness is not pretending things didn't happen either, it's taking away a part of that responsability from the person you offend by aknowledging they have finished their business with you. In a way, forgiveness allows you to give a fair punishment instead of just punishing to do harm. There a precious and near impossible balance between those things.


Originally posted by red g jacks
maybe not, but it is still warranted at the end of the day is it not? like say god decides not to shed mercy on you for a sin and punishes you instead... is that unjust? if not then the punishment is basically justice. mercy is basically god being a nice guy. if the mercy is justice too then biblical justice and morality seems even more arbitrary than human justice and morality. basically boils down to "whatever god decides to do in any particular occasion."

Christianity works in a concept of penitence, once the person has discovered he wronged others, he tries to make life better for everyone. Those efforts are the things that stand between him and punishment.

We agree that doing good deeds won't erase the bad ones, but does that mean they can't outweight the bad? If someone is fair, turns his life around and everyone benefits from it, because he learned from his errors, would then the errors deserve the same punishment as a person who just did wrong and lived without trying to make up for it? In this concept mercy can also be justice.


Originally posted by red g jacks
yea.. complex is one way of putting it. it seems a bit nonsensical to me to think that offering a sacrifice to god could cleanse you of a sin. that sacrifice doesn't erase the bad deed any more than you being punished would erase the bad deed.

At the end of the day you can't really fix a bad deed after it's done, any system that tries to make up for it is going to be limited.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
After all, I don't remember reading, in history, about atheists burning Christians at the stake.

that's in the past... and they are not Christians... in OT and NT, it is probihited for Christians to kill...

and from what i'm seeing HERE, Christianity is attacked more than atheism... and most of the reasons of the attack are wrong interpretations from the Bible...





Originally posted by Greatest I am
It seems that you do not fully understand what an immoral creed Christians follow.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

maybe you don't understand the passages you quoted... i see nothing immoral about that... it only shows that the God in the Bible is compassionate and wants all people to be saved...

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow him but I see that you have taken the line that someone else should pay your dues. Quite manly and moral that. Not.

Do you really think someone else can pay your dues and allow you to shirk your just reward?

you have a very twisted mind to say that, GIA... it's not like we forced Jesus to die for our sins...

God the Father loves the people He created, Jesus His Son also loves the people... God sent His Son (and Jesus obeyed willingly) to die for the sins of the people...

what's the catch? THERE'S NO CATCH! common misinterpretation is that you needed to be a Christian to be saved... well, yeah, sort of, but it's not mandatory... you see, if you believe in Jesus (which means you also believe in God), then you'll be saved (that's future tense)... you need to continue to be a good person until the end...

why is there no catch? because unbelievers can also be saved! example, you do not believe in Christian doctrines but you are a good person, doing good works, you will be saved... just like i was saying before, hell is not created for people but for satan and his minions... the only time a person will be thrown to hell is when he is as evil as satan... and that's justice...

Originally posted by Greatest I am
You do not seem to be aware that atheists just do not like to see otherwise intelligent people lost to real belief in the supernatural.

I guess that you have not seen the surveys that show the numbers of Christians who have been hurt by your belief in hell and Satan and the notion that they were born for hell and must somehow extricate themselves from God's condemnation.

i want to reiterate this... NO ONE is born just to be thrown to hell... NO ONE... hell is created for satan and his minions...

"Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;"
Matthew 25:41

if you can give a single verse in the Bible that tells a good person is predetermined to go to hell, then i will concede...

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Christians are intentionally cruel to their children by lying to them about supernatural and idiotic superstitions.

Atheist have more heart and concern for their fellow man than Christians.

You just do not like the taste of the medicine that cures foolish faith.

Regards
DL

you know what's the similarity, dude? i do believe both Christians and atheists are capable of doing good works and both can be candidates for salvation... both can have compassion with fellow people...

the difference? belief... we believe in God, and we have a set of doctrines written in the Bible as a guide... atheists don't... but i'm not saying one is greater than the other...

your attitude actually tells me that you hate Christians, all the while preaching atheists are more compassionate...

Originally posted by Greatest I am
He also said that any who believed in him could do what he did and more.

Note how in 2,000 tears there has not been even one believer.

If there would have been even one, we would all know it.

i do believe that you don't know what you're talking about... okay, let's see, you're talking about this:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father."
John 14:12

i know not everyone will believe but this was done by Paul of Tarsus...

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,"
Colossians 1:24

"For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me."
I Corinthians 15:9-10

this may sound self-serving but considering the fact that Paul did acknowledged that it was not him but the grace of God in him...

Originally posted by Greatest I am
So who are all these people who say they believe and obviously do not?

Is that also you?

If not, show what you can do. Believer.

Regards
DL

here? i cannot show you here in the forum... i can only speak with you here, and correct the misinterpretations you have in the Bible...

Originally posted by red g jacks
since i can't edit i'll say that after thinking about it i can sort of make sense of the animal sacrifices. they think that by basically giving up a portion of something which is gonna hurt them financially they are showing that they have taken a hit basically to pay for their sins. almost like you have to pay fines for some crimes instead of jail time. is that right? i can sorta understand why ancient people would think that way if so.

Yes, I think that was the original intention of the system, the religious law worked like a court of law of sorts, it tried to make sense of morality from a social perspective.

Originally posted by Bentley
Nothing stops you from forgiving and denouncing a crime at the same time. Forgiveness is not pretending things didn't happen either, it's taking away a part of that responsability from the person you offend by aknowledging they have finished their business with you. In a way, forgiveness allows you to give a fair punishment instead of just punishing to do harm. There a precious and near impossible balance between those things



Christianity works in a concept of penitence, once the person has discovered he wronged others, he tries to make life better for everyone. Those efforts are the things that stand between him and punishment.

We agree that doing good deeds won't erase the bad ones, but does that mean they can't outweight the bad? If someone is fair, turns his life around and everyone benefits from it, because he learned from his errors, would then the errors deserve the same punishment as a person who just did wrong and lived without trying to make up for it? In this concept mercy can also be justice..if i'm understanding you correctly you're basically agreeing with the basic idea that punishment = justice but you are adding the caveat that there are other, less harsh roads to justice. so maybe you can do a million good deeds instead of punishment or something like that. i can see the merit in that, honestly. but it still requires some sort of effort on behalf of the sinner for his sins. the part about christianity that really seems pointless to me is saying jesus died for my sins. that seems like some sort of vicarious punishment or vicarious good deed that is really unnecessary. if they said he did it just to be an example of an exemplary human being then i could understand that. but the way they frame it, he had to be crucified for our sins to be forgiven. that is just weird to me.

Originally posted by red g jacks
the part about christianity that really seems pointless to me is saying jesus died for my sins. that seems like some sort of vicarious punishment or vicarious good deed that is really unnecessary. if they said he did it just to be an example of an exemplary human being then i could understand that. but the way they frame it, he had to be crucified for our sins to be forgiven. that is just weird to me.

I see where you come from and to be honest, it's going to be hard to explain how the redemption work without making it sound at least a bit weird.

In christianity a sin is not just a bad deed that needs to be punished, it's also considered an offense towards God. Jesus's role as a mediator plays at that level which is, as far as I can tell, beyond conventional justice or morality. Those two statements I just wrote can be interpreted in countless ways, you can read the responsability you have to God as a social responsability, you can extend it to nature (being responsible of animals, living beings, materials) or spiritual elements. You can also read Jesus's sacrifice as a deconstruction of religion, you no longer have to "care" about having offended God's dignity, because Jesus has your back, just act on the stuff he left for his disciplines (doing good into others, more or less).

Back in the day the relationship with divinity was a lot about offending gods and so forth and so on, hence this redemption was a very important part of christian teachings. That dimension is entirely lost to us, because we don't seek to buy out supernatural beings.

A sin is a pretty opaque thing in our modern society, we can understand the idea of evil and bad deeds, but we'd have a hard time dealing with the "offending God" side of things as far as morality goes. Which is why I think it makes for a very poor introductory place to convert people or discuss christianity at all.

Best thing i read on this whole page full of good reading.

Originally posted by red g jacks
it's hard for me to consider it personal responsibility when you don't get punished for your crimes.

20/20

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Bentley
Justice = punishment? mmm

Justice is not the punishment of the innocent to let the guilty walk.

Regards
dL

No, I care if people behave as sane, rational humans and act decently toward one another.

As long as it doesn't interfere with our interactions or cause you to mistreat me or other people, you can believe whatever you want.

Like I said in the other thread, GIA continually twists things around to make God look bad. God never "murders" anyone. He punishes them. Yes, sometimes that means they die for their sins but it's not murder by any means. GIA is either trying to willfully deceive people (and will be punished for it by God) or he needs to learn the definition of what murder is.

Originally posted by Star428
Like I said in the other thread, GIA twists things around to make God look bad. God never "murders" anyone. He punishes them. Yes, sometimes that means they die for their sins but it's not murder by any means.

The god of the OT killed people all the time. Was it murder? That all depends on rather you believe that the god of the OT is real or not.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The god of the OT killed people all the time. Was it murder? That all depends on rather you believe that the god of the OT is real or not.

Nah, belief wouldn't have anything to do with it either way.

Originally posted by Bentley
Nah, belief wouldn't have anything to do with it either way.

If you believe the god of the OT to be fictional, then he murdered no one.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If you believe the god of the OT to be fictional, then he murdered no one.

Non-existing entities cannot kill whether you believe in them or not. Technically, your belief has nothing to do with God' existence or the afore mentioned "murders".

Originally posted by Bentley
Non-existing entities cannot kill whether you believe in them or not. Technically, your belief has nothing to do with God' existence or the afore mentioned "murders".

That's not true. People have been scared to death by things that don't exist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That's not true. People have been scared to death by things that don't exist.

In such case, the agent killing you is not an unexisting entity, because it doesn't exist.

Otherwise I can get lots of people with heart problems and make entire pantheons of aliens, comicbook characters and other fictional forces, set them up, and make them all murderers.

Originally posted by Bentley
In such case, the agent killing you is not an unexisting entity, because it doesn't exist.

Otherwise I can get lots of people with heart problems and make entire pantheons of aliens, comicbook characters and other fictional forces, set them up, and make them all murderers.

You have lost me.

Lord, have mercy on these poor deceived souls.

Originally posted by Star428
Lord, have mercy on these poor deceived souls.

Oh, the irony.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You have lost me.

You can be killed by the fact that you believe something or for something that you thought was a different thing than it actually was. But if a dog (real creature) kills me and I think it's a dragon (non-existing creature), and I was killed because I thought it was a dragon (had my anti-dragon charm on me, doesn't ward off dogs), the dragon is still not a murderer.

Because he doesn't exist and an unexisting entity can't kill. So no, belief never plays a part in changed what really happens in the context we're dealing with anyways.

Originally posted by Star428
Lord, have mercy on these poor deceived souls.

While I don't mind having the mercy of the lord I don't appreciate you calling my soul poor and deceived.

Originally posted by Bentley
You can be killed by the fact that you believe something or for something that you thought was a different thing than it actually was. But if a dog (real creature) kills me and I think it's a dragon (non-existing creature), and I was killed because I thought it was a dragon (had my anti-dragon charm on me, doesn't ward off dogs), the dragon is still not a murderer.

Because he doesn't exist and an unexisting entity can't kill. So no, belief never plays a part in changed what really happens in the context we're dealing with anyways.
I just don't know how we got to this point.

Bentley, Let me explain it this way:

We have a gnostic who believes that the god of the bible is a murderer. While on the other hand, we have a protestant who believes that the god of the bible is not a murderer.

Is the god of the bible a murderer or not?

The answer is: it depends on what you believe.

I say the answer that I believe is no.

The reason I come to that answer is because the god of the bible is a personification, and therefore, not real, and not God.

Can a fictional character commit murder in real life?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Bentley, Let me explain it this way:

We have a gnostic who believes that the god of the bible is a murderer. While on the other hand, we have a protestant who believes that the god of the bible is not a murderer.

Well, the distinction I established stems from my way of separating the first assumption (the discussion about gnostic beliefs and protestant beliefs) with the second one (whether or not God -of the biblical tradition- exists or not).

For the first question, that admits the existence of God and that his acts have been -more or less- faithfully recorded on scripture, there is a question of point of view. Yes, the gnostic and the protestant evaluate the actions differently, but that still wouldn't mean their interpretations faithfully describe the actions of the divinity (because we admit the divinity existed and acted, for the sake of their argument). In either case, their opinion and belief doesn't matter to the actual truth, it can be fitting or not to describe the events in question, but belief changes nothing.

Belief only matters when we work from the Bible as a text, and they are discussing about it as a reality.


Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is the god of the bible a murderer or not?

The answer is: it depends on what you believe.

I say the answer that I believe is no.

The reason I come to that answer is because the god of the bible is a personification, and therefore, not real, and not God.

Can a fictional character commit murder in real life?


Again, in this case, your belief doesn't actually change the reality of God's existence. Yes, if gods are fictional they can't be murderers, but belief isn't affecting whether gods exist or not.

My point is, arguing about belief is mooth in either point. The actual existence of some events is the point in contention, because we are arguing not about interpreting the Bible (a book), but interpreting the reality behind the book (which is assumed to be historical for the sake of the argument).

Of course, maybe I misread the question and made it into a more complex argument than it was originally. I tend to do that because I suck

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Satan is mythology. He was made up by humans. The fact he does not exist is not his master plan. Humans are to blame for all of the evil in the world.

I find it incredibly odd that you say that you don't push your beliefs onto others, but then turn around and do the opposite. What's the deal with that? If someone believes in that God exists, or that Satan has deceived the entire world, why continue to press on with the 'they are myths stance"? If you did not realize that you were doing it, realize that you have been, reflect on it, and correct yourself if you truly have no intent on pushing your beliefs onto others. If not, keep on keeping on, but steer away from the denial.