You guys think

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The Merchant
Palpatine will come back as a spirit in episode 7?

WildBantha88
I bet he is the cyborg

ILS
Palpatine should possess a Rancor and start a homosexual murder cult

The Merchant
I actually read a rumor that the Cyborg is going to be Han and Leia's son after a horrific accident.

@ILS that sounds amazing.

ILS
I also think Savage Opress should come back as a vengeful spirit, kill Luke in open combat, and then assume the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith as well as the main antagonist of the new trilogy.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by ILS
I also think Savage Opress should come back as a vengeful spirit, kill Luke in open combat, and then assume the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith as well as the main antagonist of the new trilogy. *readys the lube and rope just in case that actually happens*

ILS
I think Leia should make a child with Chewbacca who will go on to become the greatest male escort in galactic history, with Boba Fett's daughter, "F*ckface Fett", being one of his most prominent clients.

Sinious
Originally posted by ILS
I think Leia should make a child with Chewbacca who will go on to become the greatest male escort in galactic history

That is already confirmed.

psmith81992
Is anyone actually interested in this movie?

DarthAnt66
wut?

Sinious
Originally posted by psmith81992
Is anyone actually interested in this movie?

You don't seem to be interested in Star Wars in general.

psmith81992
I love the EU and KOTOR era. I don't care for the prequels and i definitely do not care about episode 7-50.

DarthAnt66
ROTS was the best of the saga, though.

psmith81992
No.. Anakin turned faster than it took for me to drop a deuce. Aside from Palapppatine, the prequels sucked.

NemeBro
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
ROTS was the best of the saga, though. When you say "the saga", are you referring to just the prequels, or all of the movies?

Emperordmb
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
ROTS was the best of the saga, though.
thumb up

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by NemeBro
When you say "the saga", are you referring to just the prequels, or all of the movies?
I mean, the best movie of all time. smokin'

ares834
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
ROTS was the best of the saga, though.

laughing out loud

ares834
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It was better then ESB. smokin'

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/010/856/4fcdf2e118613355b500ba5d.jpg

DarthAnt66
Better then ESB, at least. *shrugs*

psmith81992
The prequels don't begin to compare to the OT.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ares834
laughing out loud

ares834
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Better then ESB, at least. *shrugs*

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/suicide/grand/suicide-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-676.gif

DarthAnt66
TPM>ESB tbh. Better acting and plot.

ares834
http://giant.gfycat.com/SoggyFinishedAfghanhound.gif

DarthAnt66
The romance of Anakin and Padme was infinitely better then Leia's and Han's. It was so generic. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Nephthys
http://i.minus.com/inVAGKCJhnwwx.gif

DarthAnt66
Shut up. OT fans are jealous that Jar-Jar and the B1 Droids added far more humor then the forced lame puns of 3PO and Solo.

Nephthys
^ Literal child speaking.

DarthAnt66
ur just jealous the reveal that palpatine is darth sidious is way better then vader being lukes father

ares834
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Shut up. OT fans are jealous that Jar-Jar and the B1 Droids added far more humor then the forced lame puns of 3PO and Solo.

Oh I get it. You're just butt hurt that people realize Vader vs Luke is a better and more emotional duel than Revan vs Malak.

DarthAnt66
Obvious trolling is obvious trolling? erm And I never denied that... the Luke vs Vader fight with the soundtrack is amazing. Second best duel in the movies.

NewGuy01
I disagree TBH. ESB was slow at times, but it was overall the best of the SW movies.

I do think RotS and ESB were the two most enjoyable overall, though. (At least when it comes to re-watch-ability. Not sure if that translates into the movies actual quality.)

EDIT: What duel is better than the Luke vs Vader one, Ant?

psmith81992
Not sure if you jackasses are serious.

DarthAnt66
Anakin vs Kenobi. And reply to my PM.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin vs Kenobi.

Luke vs Vader >



I am. I'm not going to try and argue RotS is one of the best quality movies of the saga, but if I had to watch one right now I'd probably go for that or ESB.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And reply to my PM.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by psmith81992
I love the EU and KOTOR era. I don't care for the prequels and i definitely do not care about episode 7-50.

Most of the EU sucks and the story of the prequels > any Star Wars era, though its execution left something to be desired.

psmith81992
Yea no, the prequels don't compare to the EU. Only the OT does.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by psmith81992
Yea no, the prequels don't compare to the EU. Only the OT does.

Nah, most of the EU sucks tremendously. In fact, the best of the EU by and large is prequel-centric. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Revenge of the Sith, Shatterpoint, etc.

psmith81992
The prequel movies were below Godfather III quality. The kotor games and comics were superior.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by psmith81992
The prequel movies were below Godfather III quality. The kotor games and comics were superior.

lolno

KotOR is one of the best EU elements and so I might concede that, but 2 and the comics don't compare to the prequels or the aforementioned prequel EU.

The story of the downfall of the Republic and Jedi is just a zillion times more interesting than another generic lawl war story between good wizards and bad ones.

NemeBro
Originally posted by psmith81992
Not sure if you jackasses are serious. I'm reasonably certain Ant is trolling.

NemeBro
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Most of the EU sucks and the story of the prequels > any Star Wars era, though its execution left something to be desired. That the prequels "in concept" could have been the best story is entirely irrelevant. In that regard they are similar to Kotor 2, in that a lot of potential was lost. But in Kotor 2's case the problem is not one of execution, but incompleteness. The game was not finished, and what good there is (a fairly effective, if not as unique as Nephthys thinks deconstruction of the RPG genre, a unique and compelling antagonist in Darth Traya and arguably Darth Nihilus, mai blind Miraluka waifu, etc) from an artistic standpoint leaves the prequels in the dust.

The prequels were handled pretty badly. The acting was wooden and pretty sub-par (probably due to shoddy direction), the fight scenes at times laughably bad (Palpatine vs. Mace and the B-Team), and the characters were not too compelling (as much as I like Dooku for example, the films never really explore his motivations IIRC, leaving him as just another generic Sith apprentice like Maul, if one that is supported by the best actor in the films, for example). The story itself was okay, but almost every moment was hampered by the aforementioned wooden acting.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by NemeBro
That the prequels "in concept" could have been the best story is entirely irrelevant. In that regard they are similar to Kotor 2, in that a lot of potential was lost. But in Kotor 2's case the problem is not one of execution, but incompleteness. The game was not finished, and what good there is (a fairly effective, if not as unique as Nephthys thinks deconstruction of the RPG genre, a unique and compelling antagonist in Darth Traya and arguably Darth Nihilus, mai blind Miraluka waifu, etc) from an artistic standpoint leaves the prequels in the dust.

Traya's goal to destroy the Force via wounds is pretty interesting, but as a villain neither she nor Nihilus remotely compare to Palpatine.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The prequels were handled pretty badly. The acting was wooden and pretty sub-par (probably due to shoddy direction), the fight scenes at times laughably bad (Palpatine vs. Mace and the B-Team), and the characters were not too compelling (as much as I like Dooku for example, the films never really explore his motivations IIRC, leaving him as just another generic Sith apprentice like Maul, if one that is supported by the best actor in the films, for example). The story itself was okay, but almost every moment was hampered by the aforementioned wooden acting.

The story is, as I said, a zillion times better than that of any other Star Wars era, all of which are just generic tales of rawr smash fights. The prequels, on the other hand, tell the story of a Jedi order and Republic that doom themselves and its central villain is a hell of a lot more effective than any other. Its execution was flawed in that the acting was sub-par in some aspects, romantic dialogue was horrible, and the pacing wasn't optimal.

psmith81992
Everything about the prequels that wasn't Ian Mcdermaid sucked major ass.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by psmith81992
Everything about the prequels that wasn't Ian Mcdermaid sucked major ass.

Christopher Lee, b1tch.

Nephthys
Even he failed to compel me or come off as particularly interesting.

Nemebro is pretty dead on. Tempest just thinks the story is better than it actually is because of his Palpatine boner. When the story is more about the "tragic" fall of an unlikeable, insufferable character who Lucas gives us no reason to actually connect with or root for, further marred by a terrible child performance, a brutally awful romance and a lot of other problems.

psmith81992
What he said

Sinious
Originally posted by psmith81992
Everything about the prequels that wasn't Ian Mcdermaid sucked major ass.

thumb up

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Even he failed to compel me or come off as particularly interesting.

Nemebro is pretty dead on. Tempest just thinks the story is better than it actually is because of his Palpatine boner. When the story is more about the "tragic" fall of unlikeable, insufferable character who Lucas gives us no reason to actually like or root for, further marred by a terrible child performance, a brutally awful romance and a lot of other problems.

You become so emotional on this subject, Neph. NemeBro can make his case quite nicely without you. excellent

NemeBro
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Traya's goal to destroy the Force via wounds is pretty interesting, but as a villain neither she nor Nihilus remotely compare to Palpatine.

Traya and arguably Nihilus are more unique in their goals, presentation, and motivations.

Palpatine's goal is to rule the worldthe galaxy, his motivation in the films is frankly unclear (and unlike a character like Johan Liebert from Monster this ambiguous motivation doesn't seem to contribute to his character or anything), and his presentation is as the archetypical evil overlord. Because that's basically what he is. He's an archetype.



Which made the entire experience not particularly enjoyable (unless you're like me and enjoy making fun of it). Which made the entire experience pretty bad.

You say the Jedi Order and the Republic doom themselves. I would agree. They doomed themselves by suffering under bad writing which made them fools (this is particularly bad in the case of the Jedi). This is partly why Palpatine was able to be so competent. Because everyone inexplicably treated Anakin like shit for some reason (you can be on the council but lol**** you we're not making you a massa), which made it easy for Palpatine to manipulate him. Or when Yoda basically told Anakin in no uncertain terms that he should shut the **** up and let the people he loved die.

See, the prequels aren't bad in spite of the fact that the story had the potential to be the best in the mythos, but because of it. There was so much wasted potential despite the anticipation for them that it was hard for longtime fans to not be very put off by it.

Me personally? I don't mind them that much, but then I was never as big a fan of the OT (maybe because I'm fairly young compared to some of the others who saw the trilogy). I'd take RotS over RotJ any day.

Nephthys
Thinking about it, Sidious' storyline is also marred by a myriad of issues, at times too stiff and dry and at others way too ****ing hammy to take remotely seriously. That scene with Jar Jar needed a laugh track, because it was a complete joke. The whole Windu scene is pretty terrible. "Do it!" is unintentionally funny. And unfortunately the plotline goes for subtlety, in the first two films at least, which doesn't really work because the surrounding movies are too boring for the audience to give enough of a shit to register it. Instead of horror at his rise, all I ever felt was a detached feeling that the movie was going for ominous. Sidious is fun when he's cackling madly and throwing lightning around. He's pretty dull in the first two movies imo, since all he gets to do is hide behind a hood and say ominous things in a low voice. And be Palpatine.

ares834
You really hated that Jar Jar scene. laughing out loud

NemeBro
He did have that pretty baller scene with Anakin in the theater though.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thinking about it, Sidious' storyline is also marred by a myriad of issues, at times too stiff and dry and at others way too ****ing hammy to take remotely seriously. That scene with Jar Jar needed a laugh track, because it was a complete joke. The whole Windu scene is pretty terrible. "Do it!" is unintentionally funny. And unfortunately the plotline goes for subtlety, in the first two films at least, which doesn't really work because the surrounding movies are too boring for the audience to give enough of a shit to register it. Instead of horror at his rise, all I ever felt was a detached feeling that the movie was going for ominous. Sidious is fun when he's cackling madly and throwing lightning around. He's pretty dull in the first two movies imo, since all he gets to do is hide behind a hood and say ominous things in a low voice. And be Palpatine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHESy8XsJPs&t=0m08s

Nephthys
Originally posted by NemeBro
He did have that pretty baller scene with Anakin in the theater though.

Yep. His scenes in RotS are the best things in the prequels imo, but even then the acting goes over the top at times into parody.

Originally posted by ares834
You really hated that Jar Jar scene. laughing out loud

I've rarely seen such an awful scene. Late season Dexter is the only thing coming to mind in terms of sheer gobsmacked badness.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by NemeBro
Traya and arguably Nihilus are more unique in their goals, presentation, and motivations.

Palpatine's goal is to rule the worldthe galaxy, his motivation in the films is frankly unclear (and unlike a character like Johan Liebert from Monster this ambiguous motivation doesn't seem to contribute to his character or anything), and his presentation is as the archetypical evil overlord. Because that's basically what he is. He's an archetype.

The interesting part about Palpatine is that, rather than try to conquer the worldthe galaxy at proverbial gunpoint, he instead manipulates those around him into surrendering absolute power. That's why I find that more interesting than your typical Tom, Sith & Harry who simply try RAWR SMASH their way into absolute power. They're boring whereas Palpatine's methods are fairly unique in mainstream cinema given his goal and actually successful.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Which made the entire experience not particularly enjoyable (unless you're like me and enjoy making fun of it). Which made the entire experience pretty bad.

You say the Jedi Order and the Republic doom themselves. I would agree. They doomed themselves by suffering under bad writing which made them fools (this is particularly bad in the case of the Jedi). This is partly why Palpatine was able to be so competent. Because everyone inexplicably treated Anakin like shit for some reason (you can be on the council but lol**** you we're not making you a massa), which made it easy for Palpatine to manipulate him. Or when Yoda basically told Anakin in no uncertain terms that he should shut the **** up and let the people he loved die.

The accusation of bad writing or incompetence of the heroes leveled at the heroes of the PT has been consistently debunked. The reason they failed to stop Sidious is that Sidious actually played an effective game and wasn't Obviously Evil in his attempts to secure power. The prologue to AOTC illustrates this quite nicely: his private goal is to foment galactic war and yet he takes public actions to obstruct the creation of a military (he mentions trying to delay the vote for the military creation act to acommodate its opposition). In other words, he goes out of his way to give his enemies no room to suspect him, even publicly obstructing his private goals.

So I'd need to see examples of where their incompetence came into play because pretty much everyone Neph and co. have ever tossed my way, I have conquered utterly.



No arguments here that the execution left something to be desired, but the actual storyline remains head and shoulders above that of any other Star Wars era.

BTW, I appreciate how levelheaded and reasonable you are about this. It's so easy to drive Neph to anger on this subject.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
since all he gets to do is hide behind a hood and say ominous things in a low voice

facepalm

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061205045949/starwars/images/2/22/Kreiadarknessatcore.jpg

You're trying too hard, Neph. Leave this to NemeBro.

Nephthys
I'm actually too tired to be angry at the moment tbh.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm actually too tired to be angry at the moment tbh.

Your fragility is legendary in these parts, my son. It's just best you leave this in the hands of Blax's lover and DDM's conqueror.

Nephthys
My reputation for fragility is just people being stupid and mistaking any amount of emphasis and passion in my words as anger.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061205045949/starwars/images/2/22/Kreiadarknessatcore.jpg

You're trying too hard, Neph. Leave this to NemeBro.

Lol, how is this even a valid comparison? Kreia does more than just talk, and her voice acting is particularly excellent at any rate with a lot of subtlety, character and emotion, plus she actually gets to talk about interesting things. We only see "Sidious" like 4 times in the first few movies, he tells the Trade Feds to kill the Jedi, he tells them he's sending Maul, he talks to Maul for like 10 seconds and then he talks to Dooku for like 10 seconds. I wasn't criticising the character, just that he was sorely under-utilised and underplayed. He really wasn't allowed to make an impact in the first two movies imo, which is a shame because he's the character with the most life and energy in RotS.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, how is this even a valid comparison? Kreia does more than just talk, and her voice acting is particularly excellent at any rate with a lot of subtlety, character and emotion, plus she actually gets to talk about interesting things. We only see "Sidious" like 4 times in the first few movies, he tells the Trade Feds to kill the Jedi, he tells them he's sending Maul, he talks to Maul for like 10 seconds and then he talks to Dooku for like 10 seconds. I wasn't criticising the character, just that he was sorely under-utilised and underplayed. He really wasn't allowed to make an impact in the first two movies imo, which is a shame because he's the character with the most life and energy in RotS.

#trapsprung

I'm just effortlessly and with great sexual pleasure pointing out to you that it's so damn easy to caricaturize. And not just Palpatine.

You can't be counted on to discuss these things honestly or reasonably, so leave it to He Who Bested DDM. excellent

FreshestSlice
Lulz

NemeBro
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The interesting part about Palpatine is that, rather than try to conquer the worldthe galaxy at proverbial gunpoint, he instead manipulates those around him into surrendering absolute power. That's why I find that more interesting than your typical Tom, Sith & Harry who simply try RAWR SMASH their way into absolute power. They're boring whereas Palpatine's methods are fairly unique in mainstream cinema given his goal and actually successful.

Sure, but even that is not particularly original. Melkor from Tolkien's Legendarium, once he could no longer just RAWR SMASH everything into submission, played quite a manipulative game. Sauron even more-so, when he coolly manipulated the Numenoreans into destroying themselves and would have destroyed much of Valinor without the literal intervention of God. Sure, Palpatine is a magnificent bastard and chessmaster, but so are lots of characters. Lex Luthor for example, who battles someone who is for all intents and purposes a living god with his intelligence and the vast resources he acquired with that intelligence. He very rarely grabs for power openly, he prefers to maintain good publicity and gain power through legal means (with some backstage backstabbing). Like when he became president.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly get Palpatine's appeal and actually do enjoy quite a few of his scenes (like his forcing Maul to cry and beg for his life at his feet), but I still would say that Traya is a somewhat more original villain in Star Wars. As is Nihilus, maybe, but you might be aware of earlier cosmic horrors that were in the franchise.

Also, to be honest, your description of Sidious applies to Traya too. She certainly has the power to throw down when she needs to, like when she killed the Jedi Masters, but most of the game she is on your side and trying to manipulate the Exile into furthering her own goal (and killing Nihilus IIRC, who is a threat to her plans due to the enormity of his power and the persistence of his hunger).

Traya also demonstrates something that to my knowledge Palpatine never did. Doubt. She outright acknowledges the possibility that she is just one more in a long line of deluded Sith and that she might be a hypocrite for using a power she claims to hate. That she has this fallible persona makes her a more human character than Palpatine, who, while not actually infallible, certainly believes he is.



You know what, I'll go ahead and admit that his manipulation of the Republic is fine. thumb up

It's the Jedi that are the problem. I've already mentioned how they consistently treat Anakin in the worst possible way they could, as if they were trying to give him the doubts and insecurities which led to his fall.

Palpatine didn't really break his cover here either, but his winning Anakin to his side would have been far less likely to work had the Jedi not given Anakin every reason to distrust them.



Read above.



Why, though? The subject matter is plenty interesting in of itself sure, but what ideas does the story put forth? What thought does it provoke? Overrated as Kotor 2 is as a deconstruction IMO it does have interesting ideas that generate discussion. The most discussion I've seen the prequels generate is about whether or not they are good.



Well, like I said, I don't have a great deal of emotional attachment to the subject matter, which probably makes it easy for me to not get mad about it lol.

NemeBro
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your fragility is legendary in these parts, my son. It's just best you leave this in the hands of Blax's lover and DDM's conqueror. lol'd

You flatterer.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
#trapsprung

I'm just effortlessly and with great sexual pleasure pointing out to you that it's so damn easy to caricaturize. And not just Palpatine.

You can't be counted on to discuss these things honestly or reasonably, so leave it to He Who Bested DDM. excellent

Is it really a trap when your post made no sense, I pointed out that it made made no sense and clarified what I meant and then you farcically claim you were tricking me into (gasp) actually replying to you? I wasn't caricaturize'ing Palps, I was literally describing his role in the first two movies. That's literally what he does. :shrug:

And unless you think I'm going to lie about whats in the movies, my honesty doesn't really have much relevance.

DarthAnt66
Nephthys pwning The_Scrotum.

NemeBro
Neph, it's been a long time since I've played Kotor 2, so can you verify that the shit I said about Traya is accurate?

DarthAnt66
loser

DarthAnt66
ily

Nephthys
Yeah, she admits to her hypocrisy in wielding the very thing she hates. She says a bunch of stuff then goes "But maybe thats just the empty justifications of an old woman, clinging to the very thing she hates" or something.

The Merchant
What happened to this thread ._.

AncientPower
Originally posted by NemeBro
Sure, but even that is not particularly original. Melkor from Tolkien's Legendarium, once he could no longer just RAWR SMASH everything into submission, played quite a manipulative game. Sauron even more-so, when he coolly manipulated the Numenoreans into destroying themselves and would have destroyed much of Valinor without the literal intervention of God. Sure, Palpatine is a magnificent bastard and chessmaster, but so are lots of characters. Lex Luthor for example, who battles someone who is for all intents and purposes a living god with his intelligence and the vast resources he acquired with that intelligence. He very rarely grabs for power openly, he prefers to maintain good publicity and gain power through legal means (with some backstage backstabbing). Like when he became president.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly get Palpatine's appeal and actually do enjoy quite a few of his scenes (like his forcing Maul to cry and beg for his life at his feet), but I still would say that Traya is a somewhat more original villain in Star Wars. As is Nihilus, maybe, but you might be aware of earlier cosmic horrors that were in the franchise.

Also, to be honest, your description of Sidious applies to Traya too. She certainly has the power to throw down when she needs to, like when she killed the Jedi Masters, but most of the game she is on your side and trying to manipulate the Exile into furthering her own goal (and killing Nihilus IIRC, who is a threat to her plans due to the enormity of his power and the persistence of his hunger).

Traya also demonstrates something that to my knowledge Palpatine never did. Doubt. She outright acknowledges the possibility that she is just one more in a long line of deluded Sith and that she might be a hypocrite for using a power she claims to hate. That she has this fallible persona makes her a more human character than Palpatine, who, while not actually infallible, certainly believes he is.



You know what, I'll go ahead and admit that his manipulation of the Republic is fine. thumb up

It's the Jedi that are the problem. I've already mentioned how they consistently treat Anakin in the worst possible way they could, as if they were trying to give him the doubts and insecurities which led to his fall.

Palpatine didn't really break his cover here either, but his winning Anakin to his side would have been far less likely to work had the Jedi not given Anakin every reason to distrust them.



Read above.



Why, though? The subject matter is plenty interesting in of itself sure, but what ideas does the story put forth? What thought does it provoke? Overrated as Kotor 2 is as a deconstruction IMO it does have interesting ideas that generate discussion. The most discussion I've seen the prequels generate is about whether or not they are good.



Well, like I said, I don't have a great deal of emotional attachment to the subject matter, which probably makes it easy for me to not get mad about it lol.

Nailed it.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by NemeBro
Sure, but even that is not particularly original. Melkor from Tolkien's Legendarium, once he could no longer just RAWR SMASH everything into submission, played quite a manipulative game. Sauron even more-so, when he coolly manipulated the Numenoreans into destroying themselves and would have destroyed much of Valinor without the literal intervention of God. Sure, Palpatine is a magnificent bastard and chessmaster, but so are lots of characters. Lex Luthor for example, who battles someone who is for all intents and purposes a living god with his intelligence and the vast resources he acquired with that intelligence. He very rarely grabs for power openly, he prefers to maintain good publicity and gain power through legal means (with some backstage backstabbing). Like when he became president.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly get Palpatine's appeal and actually do enjoy quite a few of his scenes (like his forcing Maul to cry and beg for his life at his feet), but I still would say that Traya is a somewhat more original villain in Star Wars. As is Nihilus, maybe, but you might be aware of earlier cosmic horrors that were in the franchise.

Don't misunderstand me: I'm not claiming that Palpatine is an entirely original character. Other villains in popular culture have utilized similar methods, but few in mainstream cinema are given the same intimate exploration that Palpatine is and fewer still are actually effective. I'd say the vast majority of baddies in the science fiction/fantasy genre attempt to achieve their ends through rawr smash conquest, which doesn't do much for me given that trope's oversaturation.

Likewise, Eldritch Abominations and Treacherous Advisors aren't totally original either.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, to be honest, your description of Sidious applies to Traya too. She certainly has the power to throw down when she needs to, like when she killed the Jedi Masters, but most of the game she is on your side and trying to manipulate the Exile into furthering her own goal (and killing Nihilus IIRC, who is a threat to her plans due to the enormity of his power and the persistence of his hunger).

Sure, but I guess I found Traya's manipulations a bit more transparent given how much she telegraphs her manipulations. Traya is essentially Sidious-as-Sidious, speaking in Low Ominous Tones in a Dark Hooded Robe and essentially being Obviously Evil or at the very least Obviously Untrustworthy but Sidious-as-Palpatine is actually pretty unassuming and convincing, particularly in TPM and AOTC.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Traya also demonstrates something that to my knowledge Palpatine never did. Doubt. She outright acknowledges the possibility that she is just one more in a long line of deluded Sith and that she might be a hypocrite for using a power she claims to hate. That she has this fallible persona makes her a more human character than Palpatine, who, while not actually infallible, certainly believes he is.

Sure but then again Palpatine is both a malignant narcissist and sociopath. By his very nature, he's possessed of an enormous arrogance.

Originally posted by NemeBro
It's the Jedi that are the problem. I've already mentioned how they consistently treat Anakin in the worst possible way they could, as if they were trying to give him the doubts and insecurities which led to his fall.

The Jedi were clearly aloof and detached {in general, really} in their treatment of Anakin, but this isn't symptomatic of bad writing so much as it is a deliberate creative choice to portray the Jedi as that way. I suppose I don't see what you see by the examples you provided. The Jedi granted Anakin a seat on the Council due to external pressure from Palpatine but didn't confer the rank of Master upon him for two reasons: an F-U to Palpatine and they obviously didn't think Anakin was deserving of the title, his obvious power notwithstanding. With respect to Yoda essentially telling Anakin to "lol get over it," this is again a consistent theme: the Jedi as an institution don't tolerate attachments that could conflict to their greater devotion to the order and the Force.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Palpatine didn't really break his cover here either, but his winning Anakin to his side would have been far less likely to work had the Jedi not given Anakin every reason to distrust them.

There again, though, the Jedi really didn't do anything illogical and therefore stupid. Wrong and stupid are two different things and while I certainly agree that the Jedi failed utterly in the prequels, the logic in most of their decisions was quite sound. For example, what ultimately tipped the scales for Anakin was Mace's decision to execute Palpatine, a decision that was certainly logical given how enormously powerful Palpatine was physically and his political clout with the Republic. Mace's decision ultimately played into Palpatine's hands, but Mace himself had no way of knowing that and Mace's decision was based on sound logic.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why, though? The subject matter is plenty interesting in of itself sure, but what ideas does the story put forth? What thought does it provoke? Overrated as Kotor 2 is as a deconstruction IMO it does have interesting ideas that generate discussion. The most discussion I've seen the prequels generate is about whether or not they are good.

The prequels have provoked a great deal of commentary usually when their quality is questioned. I'd say a lot more people talk a shitton more about the prequels (even in-depth) than KotOR 2.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Well, like I said, I don't have a great deal of emotional attachment to the subject matter, which probably makes it easy for me to not get mad about it lol.

It's a gift only few of us share. We must do our part to spread it to others.

Nalaniel
Originally posted by The Merchant
What happened to this thread ._.

Everything you didn't want to happen.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I disagree TBH. ESB was slow at times, but it was overall the best of the SW movies.

I do think RotS and ESB were the two most enjoyable overall, though. (At least when it comes to re-watch-ability. Not sure if that translates into the movies actual quality.)




thumb up

ESB and ROTS are my 2 favorite of the saga not including ANH.

The reason I don't include ANH is simply because it's not fair to judge it now on it's rewatchabilty value compared to the others. But fact is it's the film that introduced us to the Star Wars Universe and is the most fun of all 6 movies. On that basis it's probably the best.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sure, but I guess I found Traya's manipulations a bit more transparent given how much she telegraphs her manipulations.

erm

FQRW0RM4V0k

CfBhi6qqFLA

7.40

He's fairly obvious in general.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
erm

FQRW0RM4V0k

CfBhi6qqFLA

7.40

He's fairly obvious in general.

erm

He really doesn't. I already explained to you how AOTC itself is a stellar example of the lengths Sidious goes to not telegraph his bids for power. Sidious wants to start the Clone Wars. For that to happen, he needs the Republic to form a military. So rather than campaign for the creation of one (as many real world politicians would), he publicly goes to great lengths to delay the vote to accommodate the opposition and reaffirms his stance in negotiation.

He needs emergency powers to create an army with the Senate in gridlock, but does he campaign or ask for them (as Hitler, a real world successful politician did)? Nope. He has his flunkies do it for him whilst he "reluctantly" accepts and vows to lay them down the second they're no longer needed.

You're not very good at this, Neph. Whether that owes to ignorance or dishonesty is unclear (likely a bit of both), but we're back to square one. Let's leave it to NemeBro or Beefy.

Nalaniel
Originally posted by The Merchant
What happened to this thread ._.

Btw, I like your avatar. :3

Trocity
Villain is confirmed Luuke.

psmith81992
Lol you're kidding? Box office suckage commenced.

Trocity
I am kidding, thank god. Though there is still a chance, you never know..

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
erm

He really doesn't. I already explained to you how AOTC itself is a stellar example of the lengths Sidious goes to not telegraph his bids for power. Sidious wants to start the Clone Wars. For that to happen, he needs the Republic to form a military. So rather than campaign for the creation of one (as many real world politicians would), he publicly goes to great lengths to delay the vote to accommodate the opposition and reaffirms his stance in negotiation.

He needs emergency powers to create an army with the Senate in gridlock, but does he campaign or ask for them (as Hitler, a real world successful politician did)? Nope. He has his flunkies do it for him whilst he "reluctantly" accepts and vows to lay them down the second they're no longer needed.

You're not very good at this, Neph. Whether that owes to ignorance or dishonesty is unclear (likely a bit of both), but we're back to square one. Let's leave it to NemeBro or Beefy.

All of the things you're talking about is just the story and concept divorced from the actual movie itself. You can say all these things that make it look like Sidious' storyline is intelligent and enthralling, but when you actually watch the movie the reality is bad. Sidious' rise is subtle and nuanced in theory alone, but the reality is that Lucas, the writing and the acting completely balls it up. His reluctance is transparently fake and his "I love democracy" speech is hilariously on the nose. His "oh man, if only someone would vote me emergency powers! wink wink nudge nudge" scene makes it farcically transparent.

This is the big problem with your view. You're enamored with the concept of Sidious' story and praise it without registering that it completely falls flat in it's delivery and that the movie itself is simply bad.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
All of the things you're talking about is just the story and concept divorced from the actual movie itself. You can say all these things that make it look like Sidious' storyline is intelligent and enthralling, but when you actually watch the movie the reality is bad. Sidious' rise is subtle and nuanced in theory alone, but the reality is that Lucas, the writing and the acting completely balls it up. His reluctance is transparently fake and his "I love democracy" speech is hilariously on the nose. His "oh man, if only someone would vote me emergency powers! wink wink nudge nudge" scene makes it farcically transparent.

This is the big problem with your view. You're enamored with the concept of Sidious' story and praise it without registering that it completely falls flat in it's delivery and that the movie itself is simply bad.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ksbp.gif

Whether or not you find McDiarmid's delivery of the lines convincing is entirely subjective and it's fine if you don't. Likewise, I find Traya's low ominous delivery and presentation Obviously Evil and similarly transparent.

But the fact of the matter is that Palpatine/Sidious takes public actions that seemingly defy his private goals in order to eliminate suspicion and in that regard, he clearly does not telegraph his ambitions.

Respectfully, you're dishonest and/or ignorant about this subject to provide any reasonable discussion. But that's OK. We can agree to disagree. thumb up

Arhael
Sidious in prequels is hardly present. People are just hyped up because they know who he is from episode VI. People wanted to see Palpatine fight, which is to do with his appearance in OT, not the quality of his grand plan.

You guys seriously over-analyze here. All that matters is whether film/game give enjoyable experience or not.

The_Tempest
Tell 'em, Arhael.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ksbp.gif

Whether or not you find McDiarmid's delivery of the lines convincing is entirely subjective and it's fine if you don't. Likewise, I find Traya's low ominous delivery and presentation Obviously Evil and similarly transparent.

But the fact of the matter is that Palpatine/Sidious takes public actions that seemingly defy his private goals in order to eliminate suspicion and in that regard, he clearly does not telegraph his ambitions.

Respectfully, you're dishonest and/or ignorant about this subject to provide any reasonable discussion. But that's OK. We can agree to disagree. thumb up

As always, you hide the films inadequacies behind the subjectivity defense. Which I find very odd considering that all of this was started by you saying that you feel Traya was more transparent in her manipulations than Palpatine, as you kind of indicated to again above. So that doesn't really work considering it was you who started this whole "who was more Obviously Evil/Untrustworthy than the other" thing, which has diddly squat about facts and is just a subjective argument about who comes off as more openly evil. All I did was point to scenes where Palpatine was similarly transparent in his machinations.

Nice to see you get so defensive though, old chum. wink

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
As always, you hide the films inadequacies behind the subjectivity defense.

Whether or not you find an actor's delivery convincing is a subjective determination, Neph. That you've historically struggled with distinguishing between what is subjective and what is objective doesn't change that. erm

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which I find very odd considering that all of this was started by you saying that you feel Traya was more transparent in her manipulations than Palpatine, as you kind of indicated to again above. So that doesn't really work considering it was you who started this whole "who was more Obviously Evil/Untrustworthy than the other" thing, which has diddly squat about facts and is just a subjective argument.

Because Palpatine himself never publicly behaves untrustworthy until the very end.

Originally posted by Nephthys
All I did was point to scenes where Palpatine was similarly transparent in his machinations.

Except, again, McDiarmid's delivery of Palpatine's lines notwithstanding, Palpatine's actions aren't transparent.

If they were, he'd be flat-out asking to be named Chancellor in Episode 1, he'd be asking for the creation of a clone army and the transference of emergency powers in Episode 2, and then he'd hold the Senate at gunpoint in Episode 3 and naming himself Emperor.

Instead, he consistently utilizes misdirection, deception, and pretense to work his plots. That's not subjective, that's fact.



If I were defensive, wouldn't I in fact be desperate to engage you and not willing to agree to disagree? mmm

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/312/563/05d.jpg

You're silly.

My Hitler jpeg failed.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Christopher Lee, b1tch.


And Ewan McGregor, and Ray Park/Darth Maul and Frank Oz/Yoda.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Whether or not you find an actor's delivery convincing is a subjective determination, Neph. That you've historically struggled with distinguishing between what is subjective and what is objective doesn't change that. erm

I think the issue is that you're so obviously only using it so that you don't have to admit that his scenes are bad and that a child could recognise his ambitions in them. So whenever you bring this up it just comes off as self-serving on your part and a blatant excuse to dodge the issue.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because Palpatine himself never publicly behaves untrustworthy until the very end.

Except in the times I indicated. Which is my point.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except, again, McDiarmid's delivery of Palpatine's lines notwithstanding, Palpatine's actions aren't transparent.

If they were, he'd be flat-out asking to be named Chancellor in Episode 1, he'd be asking for the creation of a clone army and the transference of emergency powers in Episode 2, and then he'd hold the Senate at gunpoint in Episode 3 and naming himself Emperor.

Instead, he consistently utilizes misdirection, deception, and pretense to work his plots. That's not subjective, that's fact.

I don't care about his actions, I care about what Lucas actually put on screen. Stop looking at the words and start looking at how they're being said. I don't care if it's subjective, most people can see through an obvious deception. Palpatines actions may not be transparent but the way he acts is transparent. That "If only.... Senator Amidala were here...." scene is something out of a children's show. Where they make it obvious and funny in how obvious it is because its for children. It's "subjective" in how obvious it is, just like it's "subjective" that poo tastes horrible.

The fact that he used subterfuge isn't the issue, the issue is that his subterfuge is unconvincing. I could write a story where the villain transparently manipulates the heroes and say that it's not transparent because he doesn't directly tell them to go do shit. By your standard he'd be a mastermind but he only actually gets away with it because the characters are stupid and fall for his obvious deception.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If I were defensive, wouldn't I in fact be desperate to engage you and not willing to agree to disagree? mmm

No?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think the issue is that you're so obviously only using it so that you don't have to admit that his scenes are bad and that a child could recognise his ambitions in them. So whenever you bring this up it just comes off as self-serving on your part and a blatant excuse to dodge the issue.b

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/wtf/grand/21385037_wtf_reaction_gif.gif

If line delivery is subjective {and it is}, then I really wouldn't have to admit to anything unless I felt the same way about about the subjective issue as you do {which I don't}.

Your emotion is getting the better of you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except in the times I indicated. Which is my point.

But he didn't?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't care about his actions, I care about what Lucas actually put on screen.

His actions are on screen?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Stop looking at the words and start looking at how they're being said. I don't care if it's subjective, most people can see through an obvious deception.

Sure. Obviously.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Palpatines actions may not be transparent but the way he acts is transparent. That "If only.... Senator Amidala were here...." scene is something out of a children's show.

That was Mas Amedda who delivered that line, not Palpatine. I've explained that to you before, my son. Also, considering their target, it really isn't a stretch. {The only stretch is that Jar Jar would be in a position to introduce sweeping legislation in the first place, which is indeed goofy.}

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where they make it obvious and funny in how obvious it is because its for children. It's "subjective" in how obvious it is, just like it's "subjective" that poo tastes horrible.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/030/403/YouMad.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact that he used subterfuge isn't the issue, the issue is that his subterfuge is unconvincing. I could write a story where the villain transparently manipulates the heroes and say that it's not transparent because he doesn't directly tell them to go do shit. By your standard he'd be a mastermind but he only actually gets away with it because the characters are stupid and fall for his obvious deception.



No?

If the mastermind goes to great lengths to conceal his ambition and utilize misdirection to achieve his ends, then no, I probably wouldn't declare the protagonists stupid simply because he manipulated them.

Sorry, Neph, I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to disagree. But NemeBro, feel free to respond.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by The Merchant
Palpatine will come back as a spirit in episode 7?

Possibly.

If it happens of course the movie fan-boys will rave about what an amazing idea it was, completely ignoring that when the exact same idea was written in Dark Empire they hated it.

Zampanů
Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ksbp.gif

Whether or not you find McDiarmid's delivery of the lines convincing is entirely subjective and it's fine if you don't. Likewise, I find Traya's low ominous delivery and presentation Obviously Evil and similarly transparent.

But the fact of the matter is that Palpatine/Sidious takes public actions that seemingly defy his private goals in order to eliminate suspicion and in that regard, he clearly does not telegraph his ambitions.

Respectfully, you're dishonest and/or ignorant about this subject to provide any reasonable discussion. But that's OK. We can agree to disagree. thumb up

This kind of equivocation is why it is so infuriating to debate with you. ( love )

Ian McDiarmid's delivery of the lines is not the issue. It is the lines themselves. No amount of acting talent could make the line "I love democracy" any less cringeworthy than Ian did. So while you are right that the acting skill minimized the cringe of the writing, the writing itself remained cringeworthy.


To elaborate a little, the majority of criticisms I've seen (or generated myself) are aimed at the film's instantiation of the character Sidious, not at the actor. Sidious the character had a heavy handed manipulation scene with Jar Jar. It was a clever plot, but watching it felt like watching a kindergartner use reverse psychology.

The same issue arises with the Jedi council. It may be reasonable for them to be suspicious of Anakin, and Samuel L. Jackson does a good job conveying that distrust. Regardless, the scene in which the Jedi council refuses a mastery to Anakin feels both arbitrary and unnecessary. The movie does not justify the characters' actions; only years of scholarship and thought about the movies does that.


Essentially: The prequels are rife with PIS in terms of social combat feats.

The_Tempest

Nephthys
I wasn't being too literal about the words, that was just a figure of speech suggesting you shouldn't look at Palps actions but instead how he's performing them. What's actually in the movie as opposed to the what its going for.

The Merchant
Did you guys see the trailer?? Honestly it looks weird and not in a good way...

The Merchant
Originally posted by Nalaniel
Btw, I like your avatar. :3

stick out tongue

Nephthys
Stop derailing the thread. estahuh

DARTH POWER
Well actually you're all derailing the thread. It was about if Palpatine will come back as a Force Spirit.

And the answer is maybe.. But if he does it will not be a Yoda/Kenobi/Qui-Gon type spirit, where it's actually them in spirit form. It will be a non-real resonance of the past type spirit like with Bane in TCW.

Because as far as Official Canon goes, Sith are not meant to have an after life, which is why they cling to life so obsessively.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well actually you're all derailing the thread. It was about if Palpatine will come back as a Force Spirit.

xECUrlnXCqk

Fated Xtasy
I feel like Neph and Tempest have some unresolved sexual tension http://r28.imgfast.net/users/2811/36/97/52/smiles/3206601001.gif

DarthAnt66
Ew. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/4003554450.gif

Nephthys
Yeah he's like, my own age and shit. sick

DarthAnt66
Ewwwwwwww. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/4206627644.gif

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah he's like, my own age and shit. sick

Tell me you can't resist that lovely Sids wanking man, I doubt you could. laughing

Nephthys
His.... wanking skill is rather exceptional, yes.

DarthAnt66
LOL

The Merchant
EEEEE you gunna take that Tempest?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't being too literal about the words, that was just a figure of speech suggesting you shouldn't look at Palps actions but instead how he's performing them. What's actually in the movie as opposed to the what its going for.

http://intelligentdiscontent.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/backpedaling34.jpg

Nephthys
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't care about his actions, I care about what Lucas actually put on screen. Stop looking at the words and start looking at how they're being said. I don't care if it's subjective, most people can see through an obvious deception.

Zampanů
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except Neph rather specifically stated that his issue was with "how" the words were said, not "what" was being said. {in fact, he admonished me for looking too closely at the words themselves rather than the delivery}

And with respect to your issue with the chosen words, your exposure to real world political speeches and addresses must be... Painfully limited if you found Palpatine's remarks to be unusually cringeworthy.

For the sake of clarity, would you mind elaborating more as to your own position?



Ok, so here's what I think. It seems that there three tiers of action which all call for applications of suspension of disbelief. I will first say the three tiers, explain why focusing on different tiers returns different answers, and then try to resolve the disagreement (by telling you that you are wrong, Gid).


In the context of a movie, there do seem to be at least three prongs of engagement between the filmmaker and the audience. First, the director has some sort of story or message to convey. The tools for this goal involve character tropes, cliches, high level symbolism, allusions to other mythology or contemporary works, etc. Secondly, the director has to actually tell a story about these high minded concepts. The specific scenery displayed in the movie are the tools here; character interactions, dialogue, plot devices, etc. Thirdly, the actors themselves contribute to the verisimilitude of a film. The actor for Thranduil completely re-worked his body language, and the Joker is the Joker.

So when you're debating the merits of a film or a character, it seems useful to look at all three of these aspects of the story. You're right in identifying a high degree of care in Palpatine's rise to power with respect to the tier 1 details. Palpatine's cunning is visible in the structure of the film; he instigates and manipulates with a degree of ruthlessness that is worthy of a place in the annals of the Jedi Order. And it seems that Ian McDiarmid's portrayal was compelling. I'm not really interested in debating either of those things (you wrote an essay about this that spans nearly as many pages as my math capstone report).

Instead, let's look at the dimension that Neph has identified. Fledgling storytellers are often told to "show, not tell." That is, informing us that someone is a badass is less engaging than showing their badassery. It seems to me that the majority of Palpatine's work in social combat (i.e. manipulation and scheming) consists in plot-ensured successes. I understand that a work of fiction requires the author to navigate a plot in a believable fashion towards a specific end. However, the author's status as the sole authority for what qualifies as a successful or unsuccessful gambit on the part of a character can lead to significant problems.

The scene in Attack of the Clones is the most egregious violation of this. When Palpatine leans heavily on Jar Jar, there are senior members of the Jedi Council in the room. Jar Jar was still heavily indebted to the Jedi Order; it strains credulity that Palpatine would sway him over the objections of the head leadership of the Jedi. Plus, the specific form of manipulation ("if only someone were here like Senator Amidala"wink despite her persistent criticism of expanding the power of the central Republic government. Jar Jar would also have a working relationship with the other Naboo Senator; why would he think that she would support this? Much of the scene (the critical step in his social-combat scheme to acquire power) requires the weakness of Jar Jar Binks. If there were even the slightest possibility that he had dominated Jar Jar's mind with the Force then I'd be content. But Yoda is right there in the room. There's simply no explanation within the movie itself why Jar Jar would fumble the ball so dramatically, other than Plot Induced Stupidity.


This is just the one example I could think of without pulling up youtube or digging out my copy the movie. But much of his interaction with the future-rebellion in Episode 3 seemed to rely on a similar lack of communication or otherwise critical thinking.




It is this kind of narrative hand-up that I, at least, ground my objections to Palpatine's status as a superior manipulator to Kreia or others. PIS based social combat victories, when nested in excellent acting and a compelling narrative arc, cheapen the entire endeavor. Why should I be impressed by Palpatine when his rise to power rests on the stupidity of a comic-relief character?

The_Tempest

DarthAnt66
Nerds

Nephthys

The Merchant
EEEEE both Nepth AND Ant just going all in!!!

ILS
Ant and Neph just shat on Temp tbh

DarthAnt66
ikr i LOLSLAUGHTERHOUSEFEST beat him

Nephthys
Tempest usually has to pay someone to shit on him as hard as we just did.

ILS
Originally posted by Nephthys
Tempest usually has to pay someone to shit on him as hard as we just did. LOL

The Merchant
And the duo continues!! Will Tempest ever retaliate?!

The_Tempest

Nephthys
It's cute that you think anyone will bother to read that.

The_Tempest
Are you still upset about this? laughing out loud

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Are you still upset about this? laughing out loud

No, I just looked at the post and thought "theres no way anyone will read this." TLDR bro.

SIDIOUS 66

The_Tempest
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, stop. You read every bit of it, Neph. Don't lie.

He really did. And probably trembled with rage at every word. He's so sensitive about these things.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Excellent post.

It really was, wasn't it?

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, stop. You read every bit of it, Neph. Don't lie.

My eyes glazed over when I saw all the colored text.

DarthAnt66
Nah, I'm believing Neph on this one. I glazed over it, never really read any more then the "legend" section.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nah, I'm believing Neph on this one. I glazed over it, never really read any more then the "legend" section.

That's fair. That's more than I manage to get through your Respect threads. excellent

DarthAnt66
Dude, too far...

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