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Sabers only. Darth Vader vs. Darth Bane

Bane lives

at the start of the fight

then he dies.

@ILS

Provide some superior Darth Vader dueling feats.

Vader, probably in a close fight.

Well, for one he isn't Darth Bane, so that practically elevates him above Bane in of itself.

I can't wait to we get to ranking Bane in that tier thread, haha he loses though. Vader is faster, vastly more skilled, and physically stronger. Also ILS in order to spare more TLDR posts, do you think we should just throw Tiin, Bulq, Malgus, Katarn as 7.5 tier or something? But where would that leave Vos and others?

Well that's already where I sort of have Bulq, Malgus, Katarn ect. They're between 7.5-7.9, pretty much.

I am still waiting for Darth Vader's superior dueling feats.

Originally posted by ILS
Well that's already where I sort of have Bulq, Malgus, Katarn ect. They're between 7.5-7.9, pretty much.

I'm not sure why Tiin would exactly be tier 8, Plo, Kolar, Koon, Fisto, I can understand given their quantifiable feats. But Tiin? Oh well I don't think we'll reach a resolution on that one. I am not convinced based on a sparring match that he'd best any of them though. But oh well its not that big of a deal

Vader has a more advanced, personalized style. Bane uses Djem So pretty exclusively, and since that's Vader's backbone style, he knows how to deal with it. But Vader also has some Makashi, Soresu, and Ataru blended in to his style that he designed to compensate for the suit.

Well, I tried my best to explain the merit in sparring as an equal to someone who actively seeks to pick apart inferior opponents, but yeah, I guess it doesn't matter.

You did well explaining it, and there is some merit in the analysis of Vos's sparring match versus Tinn's. But the thing I just don't buy is that he'd take either in a duel as he simply lacks the feats to compete. Is he within their tier ye-, but there is nothing conclusively showing that he'd do anything more than put up a fight. It would be different if Tiin had a couple of showings apart from destroying Super battle droids, as ironically most other PT duelists have at least one actual fight under their belt. Does he have superior accolades to either guy, I guess if you approach it from that vantage point he does. But Malgus and Katarn both have a linear progression of skill and actual dueling feats, as opposed to just a reputation and limited inferences we can make.

As it stands Bulq, Jinn?, Malgus, Mundi, Katarn, and others should be like the bare minimum for tier 8. Savage can probably be moved up imo to mid tier 8

I think Tiin has proven he has enough practical fighting ability to fully transfer his skill into a real duel, if that's where you're finding issue. I mean sure, Mace wasn't trying to kill him in the spar and visa versa, but Tiin is an experienced war general, and he's fought real opponents. I think he can safely transfer his skill into a real fight. The fact Mace selected him to fight Palpatine alone proves this.

I already told you how I feel about placing Malgus ect in the same tier as Maul and Kenobi for sabers, just for the sake of how the guide works opposed to how far apart they are in quality. Savage's actual lightsaber skill isn't really near tier 8, because of his technique being focused highly on his superior strength. In overall I remember placing him at about tier 7, because there his strength factors in, but in sheer skill he'd be a 5 or 6 IMO.

And yes, we are derailing this thread. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Vader has a more advanced, personalized style. Bane uses Djem So pretty exclusively, and since that's Vader's backbone style, he knows how to deal with it. But Vader also has some Makashi, Soresu, and Ataru blended in to his style that he designed to compensate for the suit.

Bane mixes in some elements of Soresu and Juyo as well.

Tiin's tactical experiences in a war never transferred and or in any tangible way effected his ability to duel with Mace. Fighting droids and managing the battlefield are incomparable feats to lack of showings as a duelist, and who are these "Real opponents" he's fought? As for accolades yeah but again I never disputed those to begin with. If he has a proven fighting ability it has never been displayed against force sensitives, whereas, Malgus, Tiin, Savage, Katarn, and Bulq (who pressed Windu just as hard if not harder) have all been in actual combat against trained force sensitives. We would have to draw heavily on inferences to suggest he'd win/fight well against prime Windu, easily best Zallow, Satele, Leneer, (be at least a moderate risk for Caedus), and last as long as Malgus did in a strike team in order to put him at tier 8. This is something that requires a bit more of a leap for me.



Either way Savage has proven dueling feats which Tiin lacks, it just seems like he is a holdover due to his accolades to me at least.



I don't really see how a guy that can beat up Plo as he did is a tier 7, but ok you know more about him than I do at least. It just seems like a double standard to me that Tiin is higher up when he lacks feats and literally and solely by inference is riding on his accolades, whereas, Savage and all of the other duelists are proven in their dueling feats/skill. Who is going to be the bare minimum for 8 then?

Bane's fighting style still seems a bit less personalized. Mind you, this is just based on the complexity and thought that goes into their styles rather then feats. It seems like, all else being equal, Vader's style is more potent.

Bane wins.

Originally posted by Sinious
Bane wins the award for losing.

Originally posted by Sinious
Bane wins.

Neph- Where do you have Bane in a top 10 duelists/Sith duelists list?

Higher than Vader.

Well, where do you have Vader?

If this battle included offensive Force techniques, then Vader might have a chance. Might.

If it's pure sabers, then Bane disassembles Vader's body in seconds.

Darth Bane's "raindrop"-feat demonstrated him blocking and dodging every raindrop from every angle in a violent storm for ten minutes.


The amount of dexterity, agility, timing, speed and endurance needed for that feat, are simply staggering.

Even Yoda would be hard-pressed to duplicate such a feat. (based on observed-appearances in battles, etc.)

Could Yoda do it? Probably.

But "probably" isn't good enough.

probably gets you killed.

Yoda is also a little guy, with almost no reach (important in any sword-duel) and he also telegraphs every attack he makes, when he leaps, and whose personalized-sword-style is only effective offensively.

(When he stops moving around, he's a sitting duck with no reach)

But Yoda is for another debate, I suppose.

Even Caedus would lose to Bane in a close sword-duel.

But Luke would trash-stomp Bane - he's the only person who is solidly faster than Bane. (based on feats)


But yeah, Vader in RotJ was slow and clumsy - and in TFU he was slightly better and more unpredictable - which however, makes no difference, when Bane can simply cut him to shreds before Vader is even aware of it.

Speed kills, and Bane is the wielder of it, here.

Bane wins.

And that folks, is how you make a thread retarded in the space of two minutes.

Originally posted by ILS
And that folks, is how you make a thread retarded in the space of two minutes. He used Feats to make his point, Dumbshit.

Unless this is your admission of mental-retardation.

In which case, good job.


Apart from loving Gary Stu Luke, he was spot on.

Top Jedi/Sith Duelists: (Based on feats - not popularity contests)

1. Grandmaster Luke Skywalker

2. Darth Bane

3. Darth Caedus

4. Mace Windu

5. Yoda

6. Darth Sidious (DE or RotS - makes no difference)

7. Anakin Skywalker (Zonakin-variety)

(Everyone below these 7 are stacked-closely to each other in terms of feats and are more logically-subject to debate)



Suit-Vader doesn't have the feats to contend with any of the above 7 in a sword-duel.

Unless someone has proof to back up a claim that he could, in which case - display.

Originally posted by Lighter332
If this battle included offensive Force techniques, then Vader might have a chance. Might.

If it's pure sabers, then Bane disassembles Vader's body in seconds.

Darth Bane's "raindrop"-feat demonstrated him blocking and dodging every raindrop from every angle in a violent storm for ten minutes.


The amount of dexterity, agility, timing, speed and endurance needed for that feat, are simply staggering.

Even Yoda would be hard-pressed to duplicate such a feat. (based on observed-appearances in battles, etc.)

Could Yoda do it? Probably.

But "probably" isn't good enough.

probably gets you killed.

Yoda is also a little guy, with almost no reach (important in any sword-duel) and he also telegraphs every attack he makes, when he leaps, and whose personalized-sword-style is only effective offensively.

(When he stops moving around, he's a sitting duck with no reach)

But Yoda is for another debate, I suppose.

Even Caedus would lose to Bane in a close sword-duel.

But Luke would trash-stomp Bane - he's the only person who is solidly faster than Bane. (based on feats)


But yeah, Vader in RotJ was slow and clumsy - and in TFU he was slightly better and more unpredictable - which however, makes no difference, when Bane can simply cut him to shreds before Vader is even aware of it.

Speed kills, and Bane is the wielder of it, here.

Bane wins.

dude great points, agreed

Vader by a fair margin.

Profile For Cobalt237
Date Registered: Feb 20th, 2013
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Profile For Lighter332
Date Registered: Feb 20th, 2013
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Lol

Lmfao to Bane being second duelist in all time.

Originally posted by Lighter332
Top Jedi/Sith Duelists: (Based on feats - not popularity contests)

6. Darth Sidious (DE or RotS - makes no difference)

Sidious would like to introduce you and 3 of your closest friends to his lightsaber for rating him a mere 6th.

Rookwood has always unapologetically lowballed Sidious and wanked Bane/Nihilus. He's like the butterfly to Neph's caterpillar.

Originally posted by ILS
Interesting. I'm just curious on your list is all.

In no order:

Sidious
Plagueis
Caedus
Bane
Zannah
Dooku
Tulak Hord
Krayt

Exar Kun?
Ulic Qel-Droma?
Venamis?
Nyriss?
Vader?
Maul?
Scourge?
Wrath?
Malgus?
Revan? (lol)
Kas'im?
Ajunta Pall?
Freedon Nadd?

^ Well it's nice you've got Dooku as a definite.



Originally posted by Marco1907
Lmfao to Bane being second duelist in all time.


Marco I've been through your Maul respect thread. Nice job, there's a few things in there I completely forgot about, and a few things I never even noticed.

Still you have a habit of quoting some half truths (or even No truths) as evidences to favor Maul. For example you've completely misrepresented Filoni's comments on the Maul/Pre-Vizsla fight calling it an "act".

Anyone who listens to that interview can clearly tell he's talking about it being "a whole act" of that episode. As in it was such a long fight he had to get right.

I suggest you delete/correct that part right away. As I've explained to you before, if you want people to take your Maul arguments seriously you have to use proper evidences and keep your arguments to a higher standard.

@DP

You're right it was completely an act, not only saber fight. Maybe I should remove it.

As for duelists list, Dooku is very subjective in my point of view, I mean he is too elegant for my taste, I would always prefer a wild Juyo style like Sidious, Windu, Maul, Savage etc. Or even Djem-So, not saying that Dooku should be inferior here, I am just saying that Dooku should be a subjective choice.

Originally posted by Marco1907
@DP

You're right it was completely an act, not only saber fight. Maybe I should remove it.


I'm still not sure you understand.

It was a whole Act in the episode as in like a whole Part of the episode. Like the 3rd Act of a Play.

Yes, you should remove it from your Respect Thread.


Originally posted by Marco1907
As for duelists list, Dooku is very subjective in my point of view, I mean he is too elegant for my taste, I would always prefer a wild Juyo style like Sidious, Windu, Maul, Savage etc. Or even Djem-So, not saying that Dooku should be inferior here, I am just saying that Dooku should be a subjective choice.


The elegant style is actually good for defending yourself.

Darth Maul fends off Opress's Power Blows very elegantly with 1 hand. It was very Dooku style. But then the arm twist and kick was adding in Maul's more notable style

Wait, I didn't understand what you're saying, are you saying that Vizsla is skilled enough to put up a fight with saber against Maul ? Filoni says that if Maul could've saberblitzed him, Vizsla fans would slaughter him for that. That is why he called it ''act''

Originally posted by Marco1907
Wait, I didn't understand what you're saying, are you saying that Vizsla is skilled enough to put up a fight with saber against Maul ? Filoni says that if Maul could've saberblitzed him, Vizsla fans would slaughter him for that. That is why he called it ''act''


No, no that's not what he was saying at all.

He was saying he had to make this such a long fight that it became an Entire Act(Part) of the episode in itself.

Filoni even explained this was a chance to see how Madalorian armor stacks up against the Force and so Viszla going all out and using all his weapons to try and defeat Maul.

Filoni has made other comments on that fight which make it perfectly clear that is was a proper fight.

As for my personal view on their fight, Iirc Vizsla was kick floored onto the floor within a few seconds of the start of fighting and then starts flying and shooting at Maul. So I don't think Vizsla would have lasted very long at all without his Jet Pack and other weapons. But it was a legit fight. The only aspect Maul was holding back on was his TK IMHO.

Well, I would agree that Maul could've saberblitz him if not for jet pack, similar to what happened to Windu vs. Jango, Windu managed to saberblitz him because Jango's jet pack was broken.

Filoni said the entire fight was virtually an act on Maul's part - that he wanted to make it look convincing. He stated that if Vizsla was put into a scenario of stompage akin to Boba Fett being jetpacked into the Sarlacc fans of Vizsla would be upset, which speaks to how badly Maul could have stomped Vizsla if he wanted to.

I also subscribe to the notion that Maul held back against Vizsla in that he didn't bring his full powers to bear against him for the purpose of appealing to the Death Watch's sense of honor and superiority. In other words, "Look guys, your boss is throwing everything but the kitchen sink at me and I'mma still kick his ass without using any my Jedi-killing-starship-chucking Sith powers."

But that's just a reasonable interpretation I've inferred based on prior performances and feats. Nowhere is that remotely said to be the case.

Originally posted by ILS
Filoni said the entire fight was virtually an act on Maul's part - that he wanted to make it look convincing.


No he didn't!

Jeez what's with all these new members either having little grasp of the English language or simply saying "Hey I heard the word ACT.. LALALALA I'm not listening to the rest, because I've heard all what I wanted to!!!"


For the umpteenth time He was referring to Act, as in an Act in a Play. As in a whole Part of the Episode. His explanation makes his meaning very clear.

You're right DP, I have such little grasp of the English language. Excuse my noobism. Filoni wasn't referring to the sword fight at all.

Why did this place have to get so lame?

Siding with DP, here. That quote is clearly not referring to in-universe.

I don't think it matters if it's in or out of universe. Either way Maul or the creators were just putting on an "act" that defies the logical outcome, which was compared to Boba Fett being taken out by a blind Han Solo. It's a vague quote but IMO it's Filoni's way of saying "yeah... Viszla has no business fighting Maul".

Maul isn't in this thread.

Of the guys who are, Vader seems to be the more sophisticated duelist. He also has that dual phase Lightsaber of his for surprise attacks.

If Bane has a speed advantage, so does most everyone else Vader fights since getting his suit, and his reaction time is typically adequate to deal with faster foes.

Vader has the strength and durability edge. Machine Strength is greater then a man's, after all. And that suit of his is armor after all.

I'm assuming this is DoE Bane btw, since Orbalisk Bane would fairly stomp Vader.

It's worth noting that Vader's style is only more "sophisticated" because he needs to make up for the numerous disadvantages of his suit. It's telling to me that as Anakin he preferred to use straight Djem So instead of forming a blended style like he did as Vader, despite having the same amount of knowledge as when he created that style.

Vader and Bane have similar levels of strength imo, but Bane's speed advantage is very vast.

Originally posted by Nephthys


It's worth noting that Vader's style is only more "sophisticated" because he needs to make up for the numerous disadvantages of his suit.

True.

I'm more of the opinion that the suit taught Vader humility...something he desperately needed. Anakin's body with Vader's experience and humility would've owned Obi Wan on Mustafar. Pretty much ALL of Vader's skills...saber and force...improved drastically as cyborgVader, despite his potential taking a nosedive. Indeed, if ROTJ Vader fought ROTS Vader/Anakin, the cyborg would defeat his younger self handily.

Some things in life, poor old Ani just isn't going to learn till he loses a limb or 3.

Bane gets stomped

Originally posted by Sinious
Bane wins.

No he doesnt

Originally posted by ILS
You're right DP, I have such little grasp of the English language. Excuse my noobism. Filoni wasn't referring to the sword fight at all.


You're not the smartest guy on the block are you?

"That's a Whole Act," does not equate to "Maul is Acting."

An Act in a play is a significant part of the play. Like this fight was a significant part of the episode.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You're not the smartest guy on the block are you?

"That's a Whole Act," does not equate to "Maul is Acting."

An Act in a play is a significant part of the play. Like this fight was a significant part of the episode.

You know what.. I interpreted it as Maul was "acting" at first, but rereading it with your interpretation in mind, it also makes sense.

Yeah, particularly with Filoni saying it wasn't going to be like Boba Fett and the Sarlaac, with Vizsla actually putting up a good fight.

That being said, I use it as a feat for Vizsla rather than an insult to Maul's ability.

Here's more explanations from Filoni on that fight. See if it still sounds to anyone like Maul "Was Acting out the whole fight":


I had always wondered as a kid, what would it be like if a Boba Fett, Mandalorian guy in the prime of his life with technology fought a Force wielder? Here I am, 38 years old, and I have an opportunity to put that up on screen, so that was awesome to do.


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=606229&from=thread&pagenumber=3#post15009341


That's the second time he's referred to that fight by saying it was showing us a Force wielder vs mandalorian armor.


Now it's reasonable to speculate that Maul didn't use TK because he wanted to win the fight in a more legit way. But it's not reasonable to take Filoni's comments there and say "Oh look Maul was just acting." Just because you heard the word "Act" from an out of Universe perspective is no reason to grasp for straws.


Originally posted by Trocity
You know what.. I interpreted it as Maul was "acting" at first, but rereading it with your interpretation in mind, it also makes sense.


That's fair enough . I get if someone might have misinterpreted at first, but it shouldn't take much explanation to get what Filoni is actually saying there.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You're not the smartest guy on the block are you?

"That's a Whole Act," does not equate to "Maul is Acting."

An Act in a play is a significant part of the play. Like this fight was a significant part of the episode. No offence DP, but after posting here for a short time it became quickly apparent that if any user here was to be accoladed as the most mentally deficient Star Wars debater to ever grace a keyboard, it'd be you. From there I've only ever heard as much from other users both directly and indirectly. I'm not sure why you're slinging mud at me over my interpretation of this quote anyway but, shit, have some back, by all means.

This sword fight - is an act. Do it right, make it exciting - that's a whole act.

Which clearly means that one party was acting like this was an exciting fight when in reality there is a clear winner. I wonder who it is.

because the fans of Pre Vizsla, are gonna mob me at Celebration in the future if, if Vizsla goes down too easily.

Oh.

Originally posted by ILS
No offence DP, but after posting here for a short time it became quickly apparent that if any user here was to be accoladed as the most mentally deficient Star Wars debater to ever grace a keyboard, it'd be you. From there I've only ever heard as much from other users both directly and indirectly. I'm not sure why you're slinging mud at me over my interpretation of this quote anyway but, shit, have some back, by all means.

This sword fight - is an act. Do it right, make it exciting - that's a whole act.

Which clearly means that one party was acting like this was an exciting fight when in reality there is a clear winner. I wonder who it is.

because the fans of Pre Vizsla, are gonna mob me at Celebration in the future if, if Vizsla goes down too easily.

Oh.


You do realize you're probably the only remaining person here who doesn't get Filoni's meaning in that sentence after it being thoroughly explained to you right?

Either you're very dumb or just too damn arrogant to admit you were wrong.

So you calling me mentally deficient right now is frankly completely laughable.

With the full context, it does indeed appear to be the way you said.

It's obvious Maul was not using the force to enhance his speed. I guess Jedi/Sith fight at that speed anyway in TCW but as an "EU explanation", Maul did not move in blurs or faster than Vizsla could react to, so they were fighting on skill alone. Perhaps this is a feat in favor of Vizsla rather than a effortless contest for Maul.

Bane doesn't even deserve to be in the top 20 let alone # 2. This is a guy who got his ass kicked by trainees, needed armor and a nexus amp to kill featless Jedi, and whose only notable victory is Sirak. He isn't better than a guy that can kill a Maul doppleganger, beat Obi wan Kenobi, and fight evenly with Luke and kill 5 Jed at once just weeks into his suit.

Vader would LOLSTOMP Bane horribly in a duel.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You do realize you're probably the only remaining person here who doesn't get Filoni's meaning in that sentence after it being thoroughly explained to you right?

Either you're very dumb or just too damn arrogant to admit you were wrong.

So you calling me mentally deficient right now is frankly completely laughable. So... bandwagon fallacy and a concession? That'll do me just fine.

I love how carthage is always in the background somewhere explaining how shit Bane is in-detail.

LOL

You just saw some random guy put him just underneath Luke Skywalker, it just has to be done at this point.

Originally posted by Lighter332
But Luke would trash-stomp Bane - he's the only person who is solidly faster than Bane. (based on feats)

Well at least he admits Luke is faster.

Bane wouldn't even beat ROTJ Luke, unless FOTJ Luke was dying of cancer and had no limbs Bane couldn't win.

Originally posted by carthage
You just saw some random guy put him just underneath Luke Skywalker, it just has to be done at this point. Whenever I encounter those kinds of people I always assume they're either trolling or I'm hallucinating.

Most Bane fans are, ranking him among powerful Sith is saddening.

Bane literally needs a nexus to do everything.

Bane is the steroid Sith

You need to read the Bane trilogy and discover the truth of my words. You will see padawan, Bane needs to have an infusion of nexus energy. He is a junkie

If not as a nexus-addict, do you at least like him as a character?

No he is more or less fodder for strong Sith to come into being, he literally just goes from point A to point B in the book getting holocrons and getting 00ber because of amps. He isn't interesting in the least.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
I'm more of the opinion that the suit taught Vader humility...something he desperately needed. Anakin's body with Vader's experience and humility would've owned Obi Wan on Mustafar. Pretty much ALL of Vader's skills...saber and force...improved drastically as cyborgVader, despite his potential taking a nosedive. Indeed, if ROTJ Vader fought ROTS Vader/Anakin, the cyborg would defeat his younger self handily.

Some things in life, poor old Ani just isn't going to learn till he loses a limb or 3.

Anakin & Prime Obi-Wan > Vader in sabers,

even Old Ben Kenobi could've killed Vader in the blink of an eye.


-credit to shootingnova

I would expect if your attention faltered against most skilled duelists, they would kill you rather quickly, especially when we are talking about force sensitives who can move that fast.

Yeah. It would be bad for Vader if his attention did falter; it didn't.

More like Vader wasn't even fast enough to order his storm troopers against Ben Kenobi. And some people here think that Vader has a chance against Prime Kenobi in sabers.

facepalm

What the **** did I just read?

''But to even warn them of would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.''

Yes, Vader is not even fast enough to warn his storm troopers against Ben Kenobi. But this is a very disappointing thing for Vader fans, since they think Vader is faster than thought and fast enough to compete with Yoda, without understanding the concept of ''hyperbole''...

How is not being able to multi-task against a high-calibre swordsman proof that Vader is slow? LOL

Multi-task ? He just needed to yell or say something, it is not so hard if you are fast enough to control your opponent without trouble, which Vader lacks that.

MMw-wojEAug

Watch the end of it.

He needs to think about what he has to say, and then say it. Taking his mind off of the fight for the amount of time required to do even that is enough to die, because Kenobi is a skilled swordsman. Vader would be considered extra fast/skilled if he could bark orders while fighting a near-equal opponent, he isn't slow for not being able to do so.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Multi-task ? He just needed to yell or say something, .



HEY STORMTROOPERS GET OUT OF THE WAY, I'M GOING TO BUST OUT WITH MY LIGHTSABER YA'LL.

Anakin >> Vader in terms of speed, as my last video suggests that.

Ehm, her and Ventress were having a conversation out of combat. Anakin >> Vader in terms of speed because he has basic conversational skills?

You know what I exactly meant, Vader wasn't agile / mobile / fast enough to order his troopers just like Anakin was doing there against Ventress.

The situation in that video and the fight between Ben and Vader aren't even remotely similar.

Originally posted by Marco1907
You know what I exactly meant, Vader wasn't agile / mobile / fast enough to order his troopers just like Anakin was doing there against Ventress. What on earth does Vader's freedom of movement have to do with his ability to talk to troops while fighting Ben?

You seriously cannot complain about people trying to lowball Maul after the performance you've put on in this thread.

You need to lowball Vader on this matter or some people seriously think that Vader is fast as Yoda. Because no one says Maul is fast as Sidious, Vader overrated much more than Maul is. And why the hell is this come to Maul again, we are talking about Vader's inferior speed here, don't bring up Maul whenever you feel losing the debate.

The point still stands, Vader is not faster than Old Ben Kenobi.

You don't need to lowball Vader below his realistic capabilities in order to debunk claims as silly as him being as fast as Yoda, bro.

Originally posted by ILS
So... bandwagon fallacy and a concession? That'll do me just fine.


facepalm

You are very stupid.

I think it's very stupid that you've resorted to repeatedly insulting me in place of countering my argument Not a good way to gain debating chops or make friends.

Thor would be disappointed in you, DARTH POWER. Verily.

Originally posted by Marco1907


The point still stands, Vader is not faster than Old Ben Kenobi.


Well personally I rate Old Ben quite highly. So that doesn't lowball Vader to me in the slightest.


Originally posted by ILS
I think it's very stupid that you've resorted to repeatedly insulting me in place of countering my argument Not a good way to gain debating chops or make friends.

Thor would be disappointed in you, DARTH POWER. Verily.


Your argument has been thoroughly addressed. Everyone here but you understands that. It's not my fault you lack basic English comprehension.

Not really man. After I countered your post you just kept on calling me dumb and saying I'm wrong because two people agreed with you. People are free to have their own interpretation of the quote without being rendered idiots in the process. The same can't be said for people who take shit like this so seriously that they feel the need to berate others with insults because they don't conform.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well personally I rate Old Ben quite highly. So that doesn't lowball Vader to me in the slightest.


Where would you rate him ?
Clearly TCW / RotS > ANH for Kenobi's versions, but he can take a few rounds against his AotC version.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Anakin >> Vader in terms of speed, as my last video suggests that.


Anakin was faster, stronger, more agile and had superior stamina. Possibly even technique.


I believe that Bane's body is faster then Vader's. But Vader's wrists are at least as fast as Bane, so I don't think, that Bane would take an advantage from his marginal speed advantage.
Since Bane was unable to overhelm Zannah with his strikes, I assume, that Vader strenght combined with his Force reserves were superior to Banes. It quite important in a Djem So vs Djem So fight. Their forms were acctually quite similar - both were basing on Djem So, with elements of Makashi and Juyo (and Soresu in Vader's case aas I remember).
Vader also is more expierenced against the best duelists - I really doubt, that Kas'Im - who was veeery good - was above of top masters of "Jedi Prime Era / Golden Age". He would be equal to masters like Fisto or Ti or Kolar at best (still, I place them above him). The same with Lsu (she was possibly more equal to CW's masters then Kas'Im though).
Vader could compete with TPM Maul in a lightsaber battle. And Maul is far above Kas'Im or Lsu.

So Vader in my opinion.

Vader's wrists? The heck? Bane has better speed feats than Vader, who is extremely inconsistent in terms of speed and often clumsy. Vader will need more than wrist speed to block a dozen lightsabers at once speed.

Zannah's style involved not directly engaging her opponents strength, but instead pushing their blows to the side with her spinning blades. She'd basically trained specifically to counter Bane's superior strength. So him not overwhelming her isn't a mark against Bane. I could make the same arguments for the dozen or so physically inferior duelists Vader has failed to overwhelm with his strength. Bane was strong enough to rip a durasteel door off it's hinges, crush a mans head with one stomp and disarm a Jedi Master in one strike. He is up there with Vader.

In terms of skill Kas'im is above most in that "Golden Age". At the very least he was a complete and utter master of all saber forms and styles and Bane knew everything Kas'im could put out. So Bane's knowledge of combat is very extensive. Vader won't be surprising him.

Bane is also far above Kas'im and Lsu in a straight fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In terms of skill Kas'im is above most in that "Golden Age".

Yeah, true. During CW Jedi Order had possibly... I don't remember, about 8 thousands of Jedi? And possibly at least a 2 thousands masters, I assume. There is a huge possibility, that Kas'Im would be in top25 or top20 of that Order. But the finest masters, like Fisto, Kolar, Koon would be above him.
Cin Drallig also knew all of lightsaber forms (as I remember he even refused to teach Anakin form 7). Does it place him above masters like Fisto, Koon or Bulq? Nope. Perhaps he was better then them (I doubt it personally) but not because he was a masters of all lightsaber's forms.

I think that most of people in KMC underrate Bane, but you're the one who overate him - as well as Zannah and most guys of his era - terribly.

Originally posted by McP
Yeah, true. During CW Jedi Order had possibly... I don't remember, about 8 thousands of Jedi? And possibly at least a 2 thousands masters, I assume. There is a huge possibility, that Kas'Im would be in top25 or top20 of that Order. But the finest masters, like Fisto, Kolar, Koon would be above him.
Cin Drallig also knew all of lightsaber forms (as I remember he even refused to teach Anakin form 7). Does it place him above masters like Fisto, Koon or Bulq? Nope. Perhaps he was better then them (I doubt it personally) but not because he was a masters of all lightsaber's forms.

I think that most of people in KMC underrate Bane, but you're the one who overate him - as well as Zannah and most guys of his era - terribly.

I meant that he would be above masters such as Fisto and Koon. Drallig knew all 7 forms yes, but not to the same extent as Kas'im did. Kas'im was noted to have quickly mastered all forms and then spent decades perfecting every aspect of them as well as creating sequences and moves for them, which demonstrates an extreme level of understanding and grasp of them of them well beyond the norm even for absolute masters.

Well Bane is the Sith'ari, aka the God of the Sith. It only makes sense that he would be extremely powerful as the prophecy said that he would be. My value of Bane also stems from many other's arguing in his favor. Sadly they are not here anymore to give my arguments the support and credibility they once held.

Ten thousand, Q. I personally am of the opinion that no more than 10% of Jedi in any particular time period are masters, likely less.

On the topic of Kas'im; I'd consider him the equal of someone like Kit, but he's no Mace Windu.

Hmm. What would you think about Mace's creation of Vapaad out of Juyo being compared to Kas'im creation of sequences and moves for all the forms? Would you say that's a similar (though lesser???) level of technical mastery?

No.

Sky's the limit.

Hard to say, considering how vague that is; I would assume not though. Regardless, the mere fact that he invented a new variant of Form VII is not what makes Mace a master.

It's seemed to me to be his main claim to technical proficiency.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No.

Feel free to elaborate.

Mace created the deadliest lightsaber form. Kas'im just mastered the traditional ones. Which, while really good, isn't as impressive.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Mace created the deadliest lightsaber form. Kas'im just mastered the traditional ones. Which, while really good, isn't as impressive.

Vapaad was created as an extension of Juyo though, it's not as if he made it up by scratch, just like Kas'im developed upon existing styles. Windu also developed Vapaad with the help of Sora Bulq, while Kas'im isn't noted as being aided.

Furthermore, Kas'im developed upon all existing forms while Windu only developed upon Juyo. So while that may indicate greater skill with that particular branch, I would argue Kas'im's knowledge is more broad and versatile.

Originally posted by ILS
Not really man. After I countered your post


Your counter which was blatantly wrong you mean

Originally posted by ILS
you just kept on calling me dumb and saying I'm wrong because two people agreed with you.


No, not because 2 people agreed with me (it was in fact 3/4 people), but because you were clearly explained his correct meaning, but just carried on grasping for straws.


Originally posted by ILS
People are free to have their own interpretation of the quote without being rendered idiots in the process.


It's not a novel, where people can have different interpretations of the text. Filoni knows exactly what he meant, and has explained himself more than once.

I've even provided more quotes from him on that fight to make his interpretation clear.

If you weren't grasping for straws you'd clearly understand his context.

Originally posted by ILS
The same can't be said for people who take shit like this so seriously that they feel the need to berate others with insults because they don't conform.


It was a pretty simple sentence to comprehend in the English language, especially when heard in full context. More so when someone's explained it to you.

But you still insisted on following your own ideas. And this coming from a guy whose accused me of not reading books more than once, so apparently prides himself as being an intellectual SW fan whose more into SW Literature than Visuals, yet doesn't seem to comprehend some basic English, even after it's explained to him.

I personally refuse to believe your comprehension is that bad. I know you're really just grasping for straws, and being too arrogant to simply admit you were wrong on this.

I mean, that's all well and good but I'm still sitting here waiting for a rebuttal.

DP, are you one of the distressed Viszla fans Filoni was talking about?

Originally posted by ILS
I mean, that's all well and good but I'm still sitting here waiting for a rebuttal.

DP, are you one of the distressed Viszla fans Filoni was talking about?


No I'm actually a big Maul fan.

Fine, even though you've been given more than enough of an explanation, I'll give you more of a rebuttal.


Firstly if he's actually saying it was a "fake fight", then that would automatically render his intention of not having Vizsla fans shouting at him pointless. So your interpretation is clearly wrong there.

Secondly and more importantly, he's clearly explained himself. So if it was "an ACT by Maul" then he would have explained that Maul had to make this fight "Look like" it's real so he's holding himself back on every level.

However instead Filoni after saying "That's a whole ACT" goes on about what an important part this fight was, and how he wants TO SHOW Mandalorian armor against a Force User, and how Vizsla deserves to go down properly.

Now let's for a second take your silly interpretation. Filoni doesn't even say Maul's the one whose acting. He just says this fight is a whole Act. So where does he say exactly who is acting and for what purpose? Oh that's right, he doesn't.

He goes on to say, TO DO IT RIGHT, TO MAKE IT EXCITING, THAT'S A WHOLE ACT.

So what you honestly think that Maul is Acting, to make the fight exciting? Even though nobody's even mentioned Maul's name when it comes to this apparent ACTING thing?

He goes on to say "That's a whole Act Because Pre-Vizsla fans are going to mob me in future, if he goes down too easily."

So what then? Pre-Vizsla fans are going to be Happier with Maul putting up A Pretend fight?!

He's just shot himself in the foot there going by your interpretation.

When he says "That Sword fight, that's a whole Act." He means An Act like An Act of a Play. As in a whole big sequence of this episode.


Here's the whole statement for you again. I've underlined the relevant parts. Now without grasping for straws, and taking Act with the correct meaning I've given you read it again, and hopefully you will finally get it:

"We had a pretty big strategy meeting about how we could force Vizsla into the fight so that we could get this One on One battle and really show the Madalrian armor at work against someone that has the Force.

This sword fight, that's a whole Act practically. To do it right, to make it exciting, that's a whole Act, because the fans of Pre-Vizsla are going to mob me at Celebration in the future, if Vizsla goes down too easily. This is not going to be a Boba Fett into the Sarlaac pit.

Vizsla's going to unload everything he has at Maul to try and win this fight."


If you still don't get it then I can't help you. But contrary to your belief, getting in the last rebuttal does not make you win the argument. I've already won this debate. So there's no further need for me to say anything if you keep grasping for straws and giving further silly rebuttals.

Not necessarily. Viszla fans getting to see Viszla unload his full arsenal in a badass fight is more entertaining and dignifying than losing in a manner comparable to Boba Fett being knocked into a Sarlacc by a blind Han Solo. Filoni stated that Viszla fans would maul him if he went down too easy, which has no bearing on Maul's intentions or how hard he was trying.
To be honest it kind of goes without saying that Maul was the one putting on an act. Viszla was only fighting Maul, therefore the only one who would be putting on an act would be Maul.

He wasn't saying "act" in the context of it being a very important act in a sequence of events. He was saying "act" in the context of Maul acting like the fight was exciting in order for Viszla to put up a fight and not die too easily for the sake of his fans.

Maul puts on an act, Viszla gets to have his fight, and then he dies without his fans being upset at him being another Boba into the Sarlacc. Has nothing to do with it being an "Important ACT" ect, and the coolness of seeing Mando armor against a Force User also has no bearing on how hard Maul was trying.
Who else would be putting on the act that allows the fight to look more exciting than it should? Viszla? Savage? Bo Katan maybe?
Yup. He says before what you quotes "this sword fight - that's an act".
"To do it right" referring to doing the act right, ergo making the act look convincing
"To make it exciting" for the sake of the Mandalorians as well as the viewers.
"That's a whole act" reiterating that it was an act.
Now he's getting it.
Who the hell else would be putting on the act to make it look exciting?
They'd be happier than if Maul took him out in seconds, which was why he referenced the embarrassment of the Boba Fett example.
He has a tendency to do that anyway.
You can tell from his tone of his voice and the context of what he's saying that he isn't just saying "this is an important act in the episode". He's saying the sword fight itself is an act, that is being "done right to look exciting", an act that is being done so Viszla doesn't die too easily for his fans sake. Only Maul could have been doing the acting. He's referring to pretence, not a simple deed being done.
Seeing the Mandalorian Armor go up against a Force User has no bearing on Maul's intentions.

Him referring to the sword fight exclusively as an "act" further indicates that Viszla has no business sword fighting Maul.

The Sarlacc reference was in reference to how easily Viszla would die, not how Maul chose to conduct himself in the fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No I'm actually a big Maul fan.

Fine, even though you've been given more than enough of an explanation, I'll give you more of a rebuttal.


Firstly if he's actually saying it was a "fake fight", then that would automatically render his intention of not having Vizsla fans shouting at him pointless. So your interpretation is clearly wrong there.

Secondly and more importantly, he's clearly explained himself. So if it was "an ACT by Maul" then he would have explained that Maul had to make this fight "Look like" it's real so he's holding himself back on every level.

However instead Filoni after saying "That's a whole ACT" goes on about what an important part this fight was, and how he wants TO SHOW Mandalorian armor against a Force User, and how Vizsla deserves to go down properly.

Now let's for a second take your silly interpretation. Filoni doesn't even say Maul's the one whose acting. He just says this fight is a whole Act. So where does he say exactly who is acting and for what purpose? Oh that's right, he doesn't.

He goes on to say, TO DO IT RIGHT, TO MAKE IT EXCITING, THAT'S A WHOLE ACT.

So what you honestly think that Maul is Acting, to make the fight exciting? Even though nobody's even mentioned Maul's name when it comes to this apparent ACTING thing?

He goes on to say "That's a whole Act Because Pre-Vizsla fans are going to mob me in future, if he goes down too easily."

So what then? Pre-Vizsla fans are going to be Happier with Maul putting up A Pretend fight?!

He's just shot himself in the foot there going by your interpretation.

When he says "That Sword fight, that's a whole Act." He means An Act like An Act of a Play. As in a whole big sequence of this episode.


Here's the whole statement for you again. I've underlined the relevant parts. Now without grasping for straws, and taking Act with the correct meaning I've given you read it again, and hopefully you will finally get it:

"We had a pretty big strategy meeting about how we could force Vizsla into the fight so that we could get this One on One battle and really show the Madalrian armor at work against someone that has the Force.

This sword fight, that's a whole Act practically. To do it right, to make it exciting, that's a whole Act, because the fans of Pre-Vizsla are going to mob me at Celebration in the future, if Vizsla goes down too easily. This is not going to be a Boba Fett into the Sarlaac pit.

Vizsla's going to unload everything he has at Maul to try and win this fight."


If you still don't get it then I can't help you. But contrary to your belief, getting in the last rebuttal does not make you win the argument. I've already won this debate. So there's no further need for me to say anything if you keep grasping for straws and giving further silly rebuttals.



Pretty much. By act he was referring to an act of the show not Maul putting on one.

Do people really think that this use of the word "act" is just referring to "a thing done" or "a deed", going by the dictionary definition, opposed to pretence?

If Filoni wanted to highlight that the sword fight was an important part of the episode and series (which he actually did already), he would have said "this is an important act in the episode".

He wouldn't be saying
and here's the important part where he explains to us why this is an act, something you don't need to do for "a thing done"


So let me get this straight. This is an act, which is intentionally being done right, and being made exciting, because if it wasn't "done right" and "made exciting" fans of Viszla would be upset at Viszla dying in a manner comparable in embarrassment to Boba Fett being taken out by a blind Han Solo - and it's being used in the context of "a thing done"? No, it's being used in it's definition of pretence. "Doing an act right". If it wasn't pretence the act wouldn't be being "done right" - it would just be done. There is no need to do something right if it's a simple act. If you're putting on an act you need to do it right. That's the important difference.

Nope. Wrong type of "act" as well. Filoni is using the "story version" of act. Like first act, second act, third act, etc...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_structure

Omg, who ****ing caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarses????

https://awkwardblackdoctor.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/frustration-gif.gif

Does it really matter with regards to either character? Stop derailing the thread.

Ares- Proof he's using that definition of act? Just saying he is with no argument doesn't help your viewpoint. He wouldn't need to explain why something was an act that needed to be done right or made exciting if it was anything other than putting on an act. It's really that simple.Originally posted by Nephthys
Omg, who ****ing caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarses????

https://awkwardblackdoctor.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/frustration-gif.gif

Does it really matter with regards to either character? Stop derailing the thread. I just find it baffling that people don't realize it's in reference to Maul putting on a show.

Plus it's obvious Vader wins anyway.

The proof is the context... Power has already gone through this with you and you've blown it off. I'm not going to waste my time.

You aren't even attempting to explain your viewpoint, and I went through DP's argument point by point, explaining why he's wrong and what I believe Filoni meant. That's the opposite of blowing something off.

This is hilarious.

DP is right, ILS is wrong.

He's asserting that the explanation that it's an act is it being in reference to Maul putting on a show. So the reason Maul put on a show is because Viszla (or whatever that Mandalorian *******'s name is) fans will be upset if he doesn't? The premise and the conclusion are in no way related.

Now that I have given my judgement this silly debate can end. You are all welcome.

Originally posted by ILS


This is hilarious.

Finally we agree. You are being hilarious

Originally posted by NemeBro
He's asserting that the explanation that it's an act is it being in reference to Maul putting on a show. So the reason Maul put on a show is because Viszla fans will be upset if he doesn't? *sigh*

The fact that Maul put on an act is why the fight took place in the first place.

The fight took place so Viszla wouldn't die in a fashion similar to Boba. He put up a fight before going out. He just put up a fight against an opponent who was putting on an act.

Is it still a good result for Viszla? Not exactly, but it's better than being embarrassed.

That's what Filoni is saying. He let Viszla go out with a bang, not a whimper. But the word act is being used in the context of pretence, and it can't be anything else for reasons I've gone over already.

This should he obvious, ILS.

"This sword fight, that's a whole act practically."

If he were really referring to Maul putting on a show for Death Watch, that wording would make little sense. Which, of course, is why you cut that word out in your post.

Originally posted by ILS
*sigh*

The fact that Maul put on an act is why the fight took place in the first place.

Wrong, at least according to that quote alone.



So Maul put on an act so he wouldn't die like someone who hadn't actually died yet? Interesting.



No, I'm afraid not. Your premise and conclusion make no sense together.



At the very best you can argue that Filoni intentionally made the fight PIS to not piss of Viszla fans.

But absolutely nothing in that quote indicated that Maul was intentionally putting on an act (though I do think Maul was more or less fighting the Mandalorian on his terms, rather than using his overwhelming Force power to kill him).

"This sword fight - that's a whole act, practically. Do it right, to make it exciting - that's a whole act, because the fans of Pre Vizsla, are gonna mob me at Celebration in the future if, if Vizsla goes down too easily. This is not going to be a Boba Fett into the Sarlacc pit."

First sentence is somewhat clumsily-worded and vague, but there is no indication that he is referring to Maul's attitude on the fight. He just said the sword fight was "a whole act".

However, the next sentence elaborates. "Do it right, to make it exciting - that's a whole act, because the fans of Pre Vizsla, are gonna mob me at Celebration in the future if, if Vizsla goes down too easily".

The elaboration states that it needs to be done right and exciting, and states the reason being that Vizsla fans will be upset otherwise.

So you believe that Maul wanted to do it right and make it exciting for the benefit of Pre Vizsla fans? You believe that Maul was trying to avoid a parallel with Boba Fett's death?

No, of course not. The "act" is elaborated on sufficiently-enough that we can say, without any doubt, that Filoni wasn't talking about Maul. Simply because Maul, as far as I know, does not have an awareness of the fourth wall. Which he would need for your interpretation to be correct.

Sorry bud, but you're wrong.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Omg, who ****ing

Does it really matter with regards to either character? Stop derailing the thread.

The issue for me here is not whether Maul was "faking" the fight against Vizsla or not. I really couldn't care less one way or the other.

The issue is the standard of arguments being brought to the boards these days and what classifies as "Evidence", which is an important issue for every thread here.

Did Maul hold back against Vizsla? Maybe.. It would be reasonable to assume he held back on his Tk if nothing else.

But Is there any concrete proof of that? No.

Has Filoni confirmed that? Hell no.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Omg, who ****ing caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarses????

https://awkwardblackdoctor.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/frustration-gif.gif

Does it really matter with regards to either character? Stop derailing the thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWsuokWmEZI

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This should he obvious, ILS.

"This sword fight, that's a whole act practically."

If he were really referring to Maul putting on a show for Death Watch, that wording would make little sense. Which, of course, is why you cut that word out in your post. I didn't intentionally leave anything out, bro. The word "whole" has no bearing on the use of the word act. You could say "This sword fight, that's an act, practically" and it would mean the exact same thing.

""
"Wrong". Good argument.
Well actually, Maul put on an act so he could win over the Mandalorians, by fighting on their terms, as you say later on. There are in-universe reasons for the fight being an act, as well as the out of universe reason that Viszla fans would be upset if Maul just straight up steamrolled him.

The in-universe reason, as stated, is that Maul wants to win over the Mandalorians. So he makes a fight of it. The out-of-universe reason for Maul doing this is because if they didn't have Maul putting on an act, the fight would be much shorter and therefore leave Viszla with a far less dignifying death. You're connecting parts of my argument that aren't meant to be connected. There's a reason Maul put on an act, and there's a reason for having Maul doing this. Maul wasn't putting on the act for the Viszla fans in the sense he was doing it because he is aware of them, he's doing it because he wants to win over the Mandalorians. From a story-telling perspective, the writers have written Maul in this way to appease fans of Viszla. There are Maul's intentions, and then there are what the writers intentions are for Maul himself.

Originally posted by ILS
"Wrong". Good argument.

No, everything that followed was a good argument. "Wrong" was my conclusion, which I then supported with many highly logical premises. I'm kind of a big deal.



Irrelevant to the quote itself. The quote does not imply what you are claiming it does.

Has it been directly stated that Maul put on an act against Vriszla, or is that just interpretation?



As stated by who? Surely not by Filoni in the quote you posted. Is there some evidence you are withholding?



Like I said. Based on that quote alone, the best you can argue is that it was intentional PIS.

Based on factors other than that quote? You might have an argument then.



Any in-universe reason you are arguing for isn't supported by the quote itself.

"I just find it baffling that people don't realize it's in reference to Maul putting on a show."

This is what you said. Why should they realize that though? The quote itself surely doesn't support the notion that Maul was putting on an act. The act in question had nothing to do with Maul (though Filoni's wording does frankly make him seem like an idiot).



No but like, where is this actually stated?

I mean, I know Maul wants to win over the Mandalorians, but is it explicitly stated that he is putting on an act/holding back because of that? Sorry if you posted proof somewhere else in this thread, but if you did I missed it.

Although I support the theory, right now that notion falls under "speculation", and as such doesn't qualify as hard evidence. So it doesn't really support your point.


It's fine if you're using the quote as further evidence of Maul's intentions. But unless you actually have solid evidence of Maul's intentions it doesn't matter.

So do you have solid evidence of Maul's intentions?

Originally posted by ILS
I didn't intentionally leave anything out, bro.

Except you did.

For every post veering off topic Vader stomps Bane even harder

Also lmao @ Bane being faster than Vader

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except you did. Not for the sake of benefiting my argument. I've been shortening the quote and paraphrasing fairly heavily for the sake of getting my point across quickly. I literally don't see the difference in the word "whole" being there. If there is one that I'm missing, my bad, I guess. I assure you I am up to no nefarious deeds.

It's approaching 1am, my head hurts, this thread is bookmarked, and I'll return to the debate tomorrow.

It's significant because the word "whole" implies amount, extent, or duration. An act is or is not a "whole act" or "an entire act", is clearly referring to screenplay.

Quick point, I guess.

You're right, but I think it's poor wording on Filoni's part. The way he says "whole" in the video is with emphasis, which in my mind is him emphasising that it's an act being put on, and he refers to it as just an act the next time he uses the word. On-paper you're correct, but IMO he wasn't referring to the screenplay in this context and just chose his words poorly.

Of course you could dismiss that because I don't decide what Filoni means - I'm just saying, that's how I view it personally.

I'd definitely agree that Filoni's quote is rife with poor wording.

A simple pronoun could have cleared things up considerably.

This is why I hate creator statements, in particular Filoni's, not to mention the fact I hate the idea of a non-Force user fighting a top-tier duelist like Maul or Kenobi. It's just a messy affair...

That's frankly most of the reason I interpret Maul has holding back to some extent.

Badass normals like the ones portrayed in Star Wars (as in, fairly normal dudes physically, not people who through training can pulverize mountains like Karate Kid) shouldn't be a serious threat to a powerful Force wielder like Maul.

I favour a direct statement of Maul putting on an act over arguing what Viszla logically shouldn't be capable of, but most reasonable people will agree that Viszla dueling Maul is inherently dumb.

Can we all agree Vader rapes Bane in a duel?

Yep, with his cyber dick no less.

Originally posted by NewGuy01


On the topic of Kas'im; I'd consider him the equal of someone like Kit.



facepalm

Good fight, two very heavy hitters. Vader with dificulty