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Who's winning this?

Tyrant!

Tyrant, solidly.

I would think it would be a decent fight but we need more Darkseid showings.

I dont see Darkseid capable of the utter slaughtering of Surfer, Morg, Gladiator, Beta Ray Bill, Terrax and more, that DP Tyrant did.

Originally posted by DTM
I dont see Darkseid capable of the utter slaughtering of Surfer, Morg, Gladiator, Beta Ray Bill, Terrax and more, that DP Tyrant did. That's why I said we need to see more Darkseid feats, Darkseid War should give us a definitive answer to how powerful Seid is.

Considering that Final Crisis retconned him into a multiversal entity, or if he gets an upgrade ala soul fire or ALE I can see him winning this.

Well, I thought this was current DCNU Darkseid, the one that was beaten by a newly formed JL. Wasnt Final Crisis pre-DCNU?

Originally posted by DTM
Well, I thought this was current DCNU Darkseid, the one that was beaten by a newly formed JL. Wasnt Final Crisis pre-DCNU? I was talking about the level, like if he is at that level, not necessarily the exact same character.

Originally posted by DTM
I dont see Darkseid capable of the utter slaughtering of Surfer, Morg, Gladiator, Beta Ray Bill, Terrax and more, that DP Tyrant did. with his OE, why not? He threw BBB into Gladiator causing a distraction and that allowed a cheap shot. He didn't fight all of them at once either. It was rather one at a time. Anyway, DS should do fairly well IMO.

Omega beams one shot tyrant.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Omega beams one shot tyrant. Nope

Tyrant in a stomp.

Tyrant wins.

DS wins, with the OE he stomps.

Tyrant.

Originally posted by DTM
Well, I thought this was current DCNU Darkseid, the one that was beaten by a newly formed JL. Wasnt Final Crisis pre-DCNU?

It was canonized in new 52. Even though it hugely contradicts the new continuity.

Originally posted by operator616
It was canonized in new 52. Even though it hugely contradicts the new continuity. How exactly was Final Crisis canonized?

Originally posted by ODG
How exactly was Final Crisis canonized?

The recent Batman/Robin arc (specifically in Robin Rises: Omega) had a panel showing Bruce being hit by Darkseid's OE which happened in FC and then even referenced the Return of Bruce Wayne follow-up. On top of that, there are other instances where, for example, Dick is referenced taking on Batman's mantle (and we know it's not a reference to Knightfall based on his team up with Damian) which happened as a direct result of Batman's death/disappearance in FC.

Of course, this contradicts the new continuity, and it's not the only one either.

^ Clearly, they're trying to pigeon-hole Darkseid's killing of Batman leading to Battle For The Cowl and Grayson's time as Batman in the new continuity, but the wider events of Final Crisis itself makes absolutely no sense in the new continuity and are completely unnecessary for the narrative.

You can have one (Batman's death at Darkseid's hands and return) without the other (the entirety of Final Crisis). This appears to be how the DCnU is operating. And there's precedent. Action Comics #16 breifly alluded to Superman's previous death at the hands of Doomsday but never elaborated on it as the whole storyline would make absolutely no sense in the new continuity. So, DCnU has the one (Superman's death at Doomsday's hands and his return), without the other (the entirety of Death of Superman/Reign of Supermen).

Even within the Robin Rises storyline, it's revealed that Darkseid's been licking his wounds in stasis since his defeat at the hands of the Justice League in their origin story. Which is why Kalibak went to all that trouble of constructing the Chaos Cannon to strengthen Apokolips and, in turn, Darkseid. Not much wiggle room to shoehorn in a campaign to dominate the universe with the ALE, fight Earth's resistance, and spite the multiverse with a collapse into a singularity in between that.

edit.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Clearly, they're trying to pigeon-hole Darkseid's killing of Batman leading to Battle For The Cowl and Grayson's time as Batman in the new continuity, but the wider events of Final Crisis itself makes absolutely no sense in the new continuity and are completely unnecessary for the narrative.

You can have one (Batman's death at Darkseid's hands and return) without the other (the entirety of Final Crisis). This appears to be how the DCnU is operating. And there's precedent. Action Comics #16 breifly alluded to Superman's previous death at the hands of Doomsday but never elaborated on it as the whole storyline would make absolutely no sense in the new continuity. So, DCnU has the one (Superman's death at Doomsday's hands and his return), without the other (the entirety of Death of Superman/Reign of Supermen).

Even within the Robin Rises storyline, it's revealed that Darkseid's been licking his wounds in stasis since his defeat at the hands of the Justice League in their origin story. Which is why Kalibak went to all that trouble of constructing the Chaos Cannon to strengthen Apokolips and, in turn, Darkseid. Not much wiggle room to shoehorn in a campaign to dominate the universe with the ALE, fight Earth's resistance, and spite the multiverse with a collapse into a singularity in between that.

The part of Reign of Supermen where Hal's city was destroyed is also canon given that Zero Hour is canon, RoS is the arc where Hal's city was destroyed which led him to the dark path.

But more on point - Even your side of what continuity should be is contradictory. You're saying that only Batman's "death"/return is canonized? but consider this: It's been established that Darkseid was only once on Earth (5 years ago, when Super-heroes started to appear and JL was formed), so for DS to blast Bruce with OE he had to come to Earth a second time. Which in itself is contradictory.

So really, in light of its already contradicting nature, why wouldn't the wider events of FC make sense again? What part of Darkseid collapsing the multiverse actually contradicts N52? In fact, Morrison's Multiversity references the demise of the Monitors which happened as a result of Superman using Miracle Machine to restore the multiverse to its prior state before Darkseid destroyed it.

What part of Darkseid taking over the Earth actually contradicts the new continuity? Given that Batman couldn't be considered dead unless he had a clone which was mistaken for him. So Darkseid had to have clone facilities and other new gods cloning Bruce, that doesn't contradict anything, in fact it lends credibility to the fact that Darkseid took over the Earth.


And there are other arcs such as Cosmic Odyssey (based on John's reference of his guilt regarding Xanshi's destruction) which also make no sense Darkseid playing a role in them. So i suppose your point of having only a specific set of events in a given event as canon as opposed to all, is valid, but it still doesn't apply to FC.

Originally posted by operator616
The part of Reign of Supermen where Hal's city was destroyed is also canon given that Zero Hour is canon, RoS is the arc where Hal's city was destroyed which led him to the dark path.

But more on point - Even your side of what continuity should be is contradictory. You're saying that only Batman's "death"/return is canonized? but consider this: It's been established that Darkseid was only once on Earth (5 years ago, when Super-heroes started to appear and JL was formed), so for DS to blast Bruce with OE he had to come to Earth a second time. Which in itself is contradictory.

So really, in light of its already contradicting nature, why wouldn't the wider events of FC make sense again? What part of Darkseid collapsing the multiverse actually contradicts N52? In fact, Morrison's Multiversity references the demise of the Monitors which happened as a result of Superman using Miracle Machine to restore the multiverse to its prior state before Darkseid destroyed it.

What part of Darkseid taking over the Earth actually contradicts the new continuity? Given that Batman couldn't be considered dead unless he had a clone which was mistaken for him. So Darkseid had to have clone facilities and other new gods cloning Bruce, that doesn't contradict anything, in fact it lends credibility to the fact that Darkseid took over the Earth.


And there are other arcs such as Cosmic Odyssey (based on John's reference of his guilt regarding Xanshi's destruction) which also make no sense Darkseid playing a role in them. So i suppose your point of having only a specific set of events in a given event as canon as opposed to all, is valid, but it still doesn't apply to FC. Originally posted by operator616
The part of Reign of Supermen where Hal's city was destroyed is also canon given that Zero Hour is canon, RoS is the arc where Hal's city was destroyed which led him to the dark path.

But more on point - Even your side of what continuity should be is contradictory. You're saying that only Batman's "death"/return is canonized? but consider this: It's been established that Darkseid was only once on Earth (5 years ago, when Super-heroes started to appear and JL was formed), so for DS to blast Bruce with OE he had to come to Earth a second time. Which in itself is contradictory.

So really, in light of its already contradicting nature, why wouldn't the wider events of FC make sense again? What part of Darkseid collapsing the multiverse actually contradicts N52? In fact, Morrison's Multiversity references the demise of the Monitors which happened as a result of Superman using Miracle Machine to restore the multiverse to its prior state before Darkseid destroyed it.

What part of Darkseid taking over the Earth actually contradicts the new continuity? Given that Batman couldn't be considered dead unless he had a clone which was mistaken for him. So Darkseid had to have clone facilities and other new gods cloning Bruce, that doesn't contradict anything, in fact it lends credibility to the fact that Darkseid took over the Earth.


And there are other arcs such as Cosmic Odyssey (based on John's reference of his guilt regarding Xanshi's destruction) which also make no sense Darkseid playing a role in them. So i suppose your point of having only a specific set of events in a given event as canon as opposed to all, is valid, but it still doesn't apply to FC. i think will darkseid wins here

Originally posted by operator616
The part of Reign of Supermen where Hal's city was destroyed is also canon given that Zero Hour is canon, RoS is the arc where Hal's city was destroyed which led him to the dark path. We don't know how Coast City got destroyed. Cyborg Superman only ever showed up once in DCnU continuity during Superman Doomed. Eradicator hasn't appeared yet. Superboy's own adventures have been chronicled and he never took over for Superman. So we don't know if Superman's death/aftermath in the DCnU had anything to do with Coast City's destruction. We just know it was destroyed and Hal went nuts. Originally posted by operator616
But more on point - Even your side of what continuity should be is contradictory. You're saying that only Batman's "death"/return is canonized? but consider this: It's been established that Darkseid was only once on Earth (5 years ago, when Super-heroes started to appear and JL was formed), so for DS to blast Bruce with OE he had to come to Earth a second time. Which in itself is contradictory. It is contradictory. Which makes the entirety of Final Crisis being canonized less likely. Not more. Originally posted by operator616
So really, in light of its already contradicting nature, why wouldn't the wider events of FC make sense again? Because you have to work 100x harder and try to shrug off more and more contradictions to fit it all in. Literary common sense dictates you deal with exactly as much as is necessary for the narrative. Not more because you want more battleboard feats. Originally posted by operator616
What part of Darkseid collapsing the multiverse actually contradicts N52? If you're really asking this question, this conversation is over. I can't take this seriously.

Originally posted by ODG
We don't know how Coast City got destroyed. Cyborg Superman only ever showed up once in DCnU continuity during Superman Doomed. Eradicator hasn't appeared yet. Superboy's own adventures have been chronicled and he never took over for Superman. So we don't know if Superman's death/aftermath in the DCnU had anything to do with Coast City's destruction. We just know it was destroyed and Hal went nuts.

It is contradictory. Which makes the entirety of Final Crisis being canonized less likely. Not more. Because you have to work 100x harder and try to shrug off more and more contradictions to fit it all in. Literary common sense dictates you deal with exactly as much as is necessary for the narrative. Not more because you want more battleboard feats. If you're really asking this question, this conversation is over. I can't take this seriously.

Eradicator has actually appeared, but that aside, i can see your point. And fair enough on the first part.

Firstly, I don't care about it being a battleboard feat. You don't see me using this feat to grant Darkseid the win do you? I think it's inapplicable either way, because Morrison specifically said in an interview that this was the first time New Gods manifest their full forms in DC history (At least on Earth, we had hints, like in New Gods v3, that NGs are more powerful than they're shown), all previous appearances are their lowers forms. So it'd be a separate version from regular Darkseid.

Considering that you agreed that even what you said yourself is contradictory (DS blasting Bruce means he was a 2nd time on Earth which by itself is contradictory already) i don't see why you should take your account more seriously than you have mine. what im saying is, if we put aside the fact that it was established that Darkseid was merely once on Earth, and accept that he was at least twice despite the contradictions (since he had to blast Bruce with OE), then i don't see why the events of FC couldn't have played out. In my initial post to answer your question i failed to mention Morrison's Multiversity, i remembered it later on but you seemed to ignore that. Anyone who actually reads Multiversity can tell that it's basically a direct sequel to the big events which happened in FC. Multiversity: SOS referenced Mandrakk and the Monitors' death directly:

http://i.imgur.com/XbcrOdT.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/GJ1Fqor.jpg?1

So basically, after the Monitors died (as a direct result of FC's wider events), things from outside (which are presumably the Gentry) managed to exploit that and enter the multiverse.

And both of them are written by Morrison; there are other, albeit small, things which imply that FC did happen.

Still can't take this "seriously"??

Feats say Tyrant.
Hype says Ds.

Originally posted by Estacado
Feats say Tyrant.
Hype says Ds.


The feats will be shown in the upcoming Darkseid vs Anti Monitor war this summer. Darkseid will finally be at full power against the monitor.

Originally posted by operator616
Considering that you agreed that even what you said yourself is contradictory (DS blasting Bruce means he was a 2nd time on Earth which by itself is contradictory already) i don't see why you should take your account more seriously than you have mine. what im saying is, if we put aside the fact that it was established that Darkseid was merely once on Earth, and accept that he was at least twice despite the contradictions (since he had to blast Bruce with OE), then i don't see why the events of FC couldn't have played out. So all the New Gods died, Darkseid killed Orion with a time-traveling bullet, Libra's gang killed Martian Manhunter, Alan Scott enacts Article X, Darkseid ruled Earth with the ALE, the Earth's heroes set up their resistance, Wally West races along with Barry Allen towards the singularity, Superman annihilates Darkseid with a song... and you don't see why the events of FC couldn't have played out in the new DCnU in-between the JLA's origin story and Batman's assault on Apokolips to save Damian.

I can't take this seriously. Originally posted by operator616
Still can't take this "seriously"?? No, it's colossally buffoonish to insist otherwise. Don't be that -- and you know you aren't -- as you keep backhandedly admitting the gaping plot holes.

But trying to salvage your reasoning with Multiversity only serves to highlight how fallacious it is to keep trying to force the events of Final Crisis onto the new DCnU history. Multiversity is a wider story that takes everything together and is not confined to the DCnU reality. We've already seen allusions and panels of the pre-Flashpoint New Earth reality at the aftermath of Braniac's schemes during Superman Doomed. A reality where Final Crisis occurred obviously did/does exist because it preceded the DCnU. It's just not the DCnU reality and the entire story is not a part of it's history. Batman's death and return is and that's all that's apparently been carried over from that story. And we both know it. Accordingly, Final Crisis hasn't been canonized.

Originally posted by ODG
So all the New Gods died, Darkseid killed Orion with a time-traveling bullet, Libra's gang killed Martian Manhunter, Alan Scott enacts Article X, Darkseid ruled Earth with the ALE, the Earth's heroes set up their resistance, Wally West races along with Barry Allen towards the singularity, Superman annihilates Darkseid with a song... and you don't see why the events of FC couldn't have played out in the new DCnU in-between the JLA's origin story and Batman's assault on Apokolips to save Damian.

I can't take this seriously. No, it's colossally buffoonish to insist otherwise. Don't be that -- and you know you aren't -- as you keep backhandedly admitting the gaping plot holes.


All the New gods didn't die. And im not saying that every single detail in FC is canon, obviously the Wally part couldnt have happened since he was never the flash in the new continuity; same thing applies to Alan. I specifically pointed out the multiversal singularity part and Darkseid taking over the Earth. Those wider events could have happened.

Lol. You're saying that at least Bruce's death/return is canonized. That means Darkseid was a second time on Earth. Doesn't that already contradict continuity? Answer this question with a simple yes or no. And when you do that, dwell on whether you can take your own account seriously considering that it doesn't fit in new continuity no matter how hard you try to put it.

Also, can i hear the full story of what exactly events of FC are canon to n52 according to you. You're saying Darkseid came to Earth a 2nd time (already contradicting), blasted Bruce....and then what? Put on a smiley face and calmly left to Apokolips? Yeah that makes much more sense than Darkseid taking over the Earth and eventually defeated. Right? I mean, come on.

Why shouldn't i admit the contradictions? It's not like continuity is going to be perfect after a reboot, this shouldn't be exactly a surprise.

Originally posted by ODG

But trying to salvage your reasoning with Multiversity only serves to highlight how fallacious it is to keep trying to force the events of Final Crisis onto the new DCnU history. Multiversity is a wider story that takes everything together and is not confined to the DCnU reality. We've already seen allusions and panels of the pre-Flashpoint New Earth reality at the aftermath of Braniac's schemes during Superman Doomed. A reality where Final Crisis occurred obviously did/does exist because it preceded the DCnU. It's just not the DCnU reality and the entire story is not a part of it's history. Batman's death and return is and that's all that's apparently been carried over from that story. And we both know it. Accordingly, Final Crisis hasn't been canonized.

What? This is something i can't take seriously.

You realize that the new continuity rebooted the whole multiverse(s) and not just the new Earth universe? That's why WS and Vertigo were incorporated in DCnU in the first place. So unless there's a part of Multiversity that i missed which states it's not confined to the DCnU multiverse, all this talk is completely unsubstantiated.

I don't care what Doomed showed, you should wait for Convergence to see if New Earth is part of the new multiverse; but for all we know pre-FP multiversal continuity is likely a separate multiverse. E2 World's End #5 already referenced "a nearby multiverse".