Juggernaut vs Kalibak

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carver9
Classic Jugs vs Kalibak. The one that was amped when he fought Orion.

riv6672
Bearing in mind i dont find Orion (Kalibak measuring stick in this case) all that impressive, and Juggernaut's overall standing as a quintessential MU tough guy, i'm choosing Juggernaut FTW.

abhilegend
The one who was able to casually catch orions punch and has telepathic powers? Yeah, kalibak wins easily.

riv6672
I've never disagreed with abhi before but, i disagree. smile

Golgo13
Originally posted by riv6672
Bearing in mind i dont find Orion (Kalibak measuring stick in this case) all that impressive, and Juggernaut's overall standing as a quintessential MU tough guy, i'm choosing Juggernaut FTW.

Why? Orion has some great showings. In Simonson's run he owned Kalibak.

Golgo13
Btw, if Kalibak did have Tp, he wins.

quanchi112
Juggs beats his ass.

Sin I AM
Kalibak has tp, wtf since when

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Kalibak has tp, wtf since when
It was a temporary amp in Firestorm which Carver mentioned in OP.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Kalibak has tp, wtf since when

It was a short powerup in the Firestorm arc, IIRC. He was casually owning Orion. He'd probably win here.

Stoic
Classic Cain had a helmet, and for redundancy purposes he also wore a face mask beneath the helmet.

riv6672
Word is, he got the idea from watching Batman: The Animated Series.
But yeah, Juggernaut has this.

DTM
If Kalibak has mental attacks, he will solidly beat Juggernaut, if he doesnt then Cain will own him every single time.

riv6672
We've just said Juggernaut has defenses though.
Mental attacks dont change the fact that Kalibak is a mental midget, either.

Sin I AM
Scans of this amped version

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by -K-M-
Here's the newly upgraded Kalibak so people can grasp his level

1. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/Firestorm034-021.jpg
2. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/Firestorm034-022.jpg
3. http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/OrionKalibak3.jpg
====
Current Mantis hasn't appeared much, so kinda hard to guage his current level of power

carver9
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/74209/3062837-firestorm034-021.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/74209/3062838-firestorm034-022.jpg

Sin I AM
Meh

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
]

Back off my woman.

carver9
So Sin is dating the both of us?

DarkSaint85
EGAD!

Sin I AM
Doesn't really look all that impressive. Granted he took out Orion very easily. How long did he have the amp?

-K-M-
Doesn't look impressive? What? Also it took a point blank atomic bomb blast to KO him

Not long. He died shortly after in death of the new gods and only recently appeared in the new DC universe.

abhilegend
Catching Orion's punch casually and koing him easily isn't impressive? Da ****?

Also superman said he was stronger than usual in DONG and that he could trade punches with superman for hours. If that's not impressive, I don't know what is.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by -K-M-
Doesn't look impressive? What? Also it took a point blank atomic bomb blast to KO him

Not long. He died shortly after in death of the new gods and only recently appeared in the new DC universe. Originally posted by abhilegend
Catching Orion's punch casually and koing him easily isn't impressive? Da ****?

Also superman said he was stronger than usual in DONG and that he could trade punches with superman for hours. If that's not impressive, I don't know what is.

I was kidding

DTM
Originally posted by carver9
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/74209/3062837-firestorm034-021.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/74209/3062838-firestorm034-022.jpg

Psi Beams and strength to casually catch a punch from Orion, eh? Yeah, this ne Kalibak stomps Juggernaut. Hes got the strength to hang with him for a long time, and the mental attacks to take him out in the end.

DarkSaint85
That Carver, making spite DC threads....

Stoic
Has anyone forgotten about Cain's durability? Kalibak would have some very serious issues with it. Cain at his best was crushing Thor. Some believe that it was an amplification, while others believe it to be him focused. I was convinced that it was a focused Cain, since no evidence could be found on him having an external amplification that I know of. Cain isn't slow, so I don't know why the Orion feat has everyone so convinced of anything? Who in comics has ever bent Cain's hand back like Kalibak bent Orion's hand back? Whoever wins, won't be stomping the other based on popular opinion.

DarkSaint85
It's more, Orion is peers with the top dogs. Your Supes etc.

If someone had done the same to Thor, say, or Hulk, that would place that person way up on the food chain, strength wise.

On top of this, Kalibak has always had some pretty damn good durability. Nowhere near Cain, of course, let's not get carried away here. But on TOP of that, he now has psi beams, which are pretty much Cain's K-nite.

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's more, Orion is peers with the top dogs. Your Supes etc.

If someone had done the same to Thor, say, or Hulk, that would place that person way up on the food chain, strength wise.

On top of this, Kalibak has always had some pretty damn good durability. Nowhere near Cain, of course, let's not get carried away here. But on TOP of that, he now has psi beams, which are pretty much Cain's K-nite.

He does look strong enough to rip that helmet off. This goes without saying, and if he did it would certainly mean he wins. TP for the win. I don't think he would beat Cain in a H2H, but then again he doesn't have to. Plus even if he did not know about the helmet, Cain has been written to be so dumb, that he would probably tell him about the helmet on his own.

riv6672
Originally posted by Stoic
Has anyone forgotten about Cain's durability? .... Whoever wins, won't be stomping the other based on popular opinion.
Right there.

Stoic
Originally posted by riv6672
Right there.

I had to take some to to think about Cain's character. He's a doofus. Even Cytorrak said that he wouldn't have been his choice for an avatar. I could literally see him gloating about how his helmet stops mind attacks, and Kalibak smiling at him just before he tears it off and delivers the mind whammy. What I don't see happening is Kalibak stomping him physically. Cain is, or was a walking plot device. He takes more than he can give, and there aren't many that can take as much as he can. Still, character can't be ignored.

riv6672
No, character cant be ignored, thats a great point, Stoic.
The one everyone's missing is the whole stomping deal though. Thats just not happening.

KingD19
Is he really a doofus though? Back in the golden age pretty much everybody told you point blank exactly what they could do every time they got a chance. Since then he's sold me as a big lumbering guy, but he's never done anything outright dumb imo aside from attacking WWH while he was at a fraction of his power. That was dumb bravery though, not just dumb.

celeyhyga17
This amped Kalibak wins. Quite impressive how he made Orion crumple so easily.
DS has amped Kalibak a few times in a few of his encounters with Orion. I don't think any of them match how he treated Orion here.

riv6672
Originally posted by KingD19
Is he really a doofus though? Back in the golden age pretty much everybody told you point blank exactly what they could do every time they got a chance. Since then he's sold me as a big lumbering guy, but he's never done anything outright dumb imo aside from attacking WWH while he was at a fraction of his power. That was dumb bravery though, not just dumb.
IMO he's no fool.
And lets not forget, Kalibak's amp here, doesnt extend to whats between HIS ears, either.

-K-M-
Actually he fought intelligently and owned Firebird and Firestorm in just a few moves. Later he nearly killed Firestorm, but then Firestorm took him into the air and detonated a nuke close range to KO him.

riv6672
Then we cant ignore all the times Juggernaut's fought well.
Neither is an Einstein, but neither is a flat out cartoon character idiot.

Golgo13
Can't forget Kalibak mother box and club. BFR would also be in play. Can't see how Kalibak looses other than him not fighting smart.

KingD19
Since this is Classic Juggernaut does he get his forcefield, his magic, etc...? Esoteric powers that were prevalent when he was Classic and before he lost all of them in Eternity's dimension?

riv6672
I think we've all been going with that, in which case the club, MB are still putting things on an even playing field.

KingD19
Even enough yeah, but Kalibak can't get through that forcefield. MB might be able to but the only one to do it has been Thor and that involved Mjolnir negating the enchantment for about a minute. Beyond the forcefield Cain has energy attacks, and strength enough to hurt Kalibak. Plus without getting through the forcefield, he won't be able to remove his helmet and skullcap, making his TP worthless until/unless he gets through. And I believe at one point he shrunk the X-Men. I'm probably thinking of someone else though.

riv6672
Not sure about that last, but everything else is square, which is why i went with Juggernaut.

Vanguard
Juggernaut

DTM
Cains force field wont protect him from mental attacks, and characters physically weaker than Kalibak have torn his helmet off. Once thats done, one bolt to the brain will defeat the Juggernaut.

A Super strong bruiser, with mental attacks (ala Despero or Martian Manhunter) are The Worst opponents for Cain to fight.

krisblaze
Originally posted by -K-M-
Doesn't look impressive? What? Also it took a point blank atomic bomb blast to KO him
This isn't necessarily that impressive though, it would put his durability far below Juggernaut's...or what I assumed Orion's durability was..

KingD19
Originally posted by DTM
Cains force field wont protect him from mental attacks, and characters physically weaker than Kalibak have torn his helmet off. Once thats done, one bolt to the brain will defeat the Juggernaut.

A Super strong bruiser, with mental attacks (ala Despero or Martian Manhunter) are The Worst opponents for Cain to fight.

The force field isn't to stop mental attacks. It's to act as a forcefield, a barrier of energy between Cain and his opponent. Unless Kalibak has a way to negate the forcefield, he can't touch Cain, therefore he can't get to his helmet.

riv6672
Bingo.

krisblaze
Originally posted by KingD19
The force field isn't to stop mental attacks. It's to act as a forcefield, a barrier of energy between Cain and his opponent. Unless Kalibak has a way to negate the forcefield, he can't touch Cain, therefore he can't get to his helmet.
Is that why Archangel keeps snagging Cain's helmet? big grin

The forcefield is inconsistent. Generally the Juggernaut can be touched and punched just like anyone else, he just isn't actually hurt.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by KingD19
The force field isn't to stop mental attacks. It's to act as a forcefield, a barrier of energy between Cain and his opponent. Unless Kalibak has a way to negate the forcefield, he can't touch Cain, therefore he can't get to his helmet.

Can he fight with it actively up

TheLordofMurder
When characters just magically bypass his Force Field and remove Juggs helm, its pure PIS; we've seen in fights against Thor how his Force Field/Helm are when handled sans PIS...

The Force Field is barrier between him and his opponent; you cant get to his helm without overcoming the Force Field...

Therefore, unless Kalibak has some way around the Force Field, Juggs will eventually win...

krisblaze
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Can he fight with it actively up

He has less showings with the forcefield than without it.

riv6672
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
When characters just magically bypass his Force Field and remove Juggs helm, its pure PIS; we've seen in fights against Thor how his Force Field/Helm are when handled sans PIS...

The Force Field is barrier between him and his opponent; you cant get to his helm without overcoming the Force Field...

Therefore, unless Kalibak has some way around the Force Field, Juggs will eventually win...
Sound reasoning.

Originally posted by krisblaze
He has less showings with the forcefield than without it.
Really? I'd have to see that from a viable third party to but it.
Still, just as i'm not assuming either character is behaving like a blithering idiot in this fight, i'm not assuming Juggernaut's force field is off, when picking a winner.

krisblaze
Thor fight deviates from the norm in quite a few areas, not just regarding Juggernaut.

a) Juggernaut needs his forcefield to be invulnerable.

b) Juggernaut relies on continuous input in order to have his powers (This one has been debated a lot).

c) Juggernaut still retains some super-strength/durability without his forcefield.

d) Thor had the 60 second rule outside of earth.

It's not a fight that's consistent with many of Juggernaut's other showings, good or bad. It certainly doesn't warrant a line of reasoning where Juggernaut is untouchable unless you get past his forcefield.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by krisblaze
Thor fight deviates from the norm in quite a few areas, not just regarding Juggernaut.

a) Juggernaut needs his forcefield to be invulnerable.

b) Juggernaut relies on continuous input in order to have his powers (This one has been debated a lot).

c) Juggernaut still retains some super-strength/durability without his forcefield.

d) Thor had the 60 second rule outside of earth.

It's not a fight that's consistent with many of Juggernaut's other showings, good or bad.

Thor fought Juggs twice and both showings are consistent with one another...

krisblaze
Thor's got more than two fight against him.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by krisblaze
Thor's got more than two fight against him.

Well let me clarify; two one on one fights against Classic Juggs (the 1st started one on one before a superhero team helped him; Thor was weakened prior to the battle by Hela's curse however...the 2nd was one on one the entire fight though and Thor won by BFR).

-K-M-
Originally posted by krisblaze
This isn't necessarily that impressive though, it would put his durability far below Juggernaut's...or what I assumed Orion's durability was..

Of course. Not many people have better durability then juggernaut. Its still impressive how he wrecked everyone in that issue though

riv6672
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Well let me clarify; two one on one fights against Classic Juggs (the 1st started one on one before a superhero team helped him; Thor was weakened prior to the battle by Hela's curse however...the 2nd was one on one the entire fight though and Thor won by BFR).
I remember these fights fondly...

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