Force Drain: How's it work?

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ChaosTheory123
I'll preface this with another "I'm bored"

Apparently this is viewed as some kind of instant win around here (hearsay from one of your own)

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario

Say you have some character with DE Sidious' power, yet absolutely no technique for defending against Force Drain

Would this mean a character, say as powerful as Traya, would be able to sap him dry of all his energy instantly, despite not possessing anywhere near the kind of raw power this Sidious approximate does?

If so... how the hell do you conclude that one? :hmm

The Merchant
Honestly I think it depends how much energy they can siphon. At someone like Palpatine's level there would simply be too much energy to draw and it'll take a while in comparison to say someone of Sha'Gi's level.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by The Merchant
Honestly I think it depends how much energy they can siphon. At someone like Palpatine's level there would simply be too much energy to draw and it'll take a while in comparison to say someone of Sha'Gi's level.

This is basically what I think

Though given you're somewhat aware of the OBD apparently, I imagine you probably knew some of this about how we treat it already :maybe

The Merchant
Yeah I agree with the interpretation that Force Drain isn't an instant one-shotting move, though others disagree.

Nephthys
I don't see how it matters. Even if it doesn't one-shot, the opponent is left with a large portion of their power drained and is continuing to be drained very rapidly. I don't see how they can fight back at that point. It's still an insta-win button.

Also its debate-able if it is a drain but whatever.

ChaosTheory123
Hence the purpose of the thread :maybe

I want to understand why they may or may not think that

Seems silly to me, especially once you think about the fact Traya's basically a drop of water compared to the ocean that is Sidious

NewGuy01
There are conflicting sources on how it works, mainly because it's ambiguous.

In what you're referring to, KOTOR 2, it's described to work as a reverse battle meditation of sorts; taking energy instead of providing it, and instead of just killing you the technique empties you of the Force all together.

The problem with this, though, is that being severed from the Force in such manner is impossible; and worse than that, the game tends to disagree with itself on whether or not losing the Forcce kills someone.

I find more up-to-date sources concerning the technique to be more reliable in terms of mechanics myself, though.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how it matters. Even if it doesn't one-shot, the opponent is left with a large portion of their power drained and is continuing to be drained. I don't see how they can fight back at that point.

Sidious has the power to conjure force storms able to raze planetary surfaces and destroy fleets of ships with shields with around petatons of energy per IIRC

Traya's best feat is being stronger than Surik, who at the most generous interpretation be said to possess teratons of energy for slaying the Greater Storm Beast

Let's think about WHY someone as strong as Sidious wouldn't even notice the loss in energy and stamina as he prepares to smear someone of Traya's power with TK

Nephthys
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Traya's basically a drop of water compared to the ocean that is Sidious

Uh, not really.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by NewGuy01
There are conflicting sources on how it works, mainly because it's ambiguous.

In what you're referring to, KOTOR 2, it's described to work as a reverse battle meditation of sorts; taking energy instead of providing it, and instead of just killing you the technique empties you of the Force all together.

The problem with this, though, is that being severed from the Force in such manner is impossible; and worse than that, the game tends to disagree with itself on whether or not losing the Forcce kills someone.

I find more up-to-date sources concerning the technique to be more reliable in terms of mechanics myself, though.

Take your time, though as you described it, it's basically how I interpret it as working

It's limit is how fast a ****er can consume the force energy

A weaker character has a slower rate given they have less power to work with and all that fun shit

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, not really.

The "no you" style of debate is kind of leaving me wanting chuckles :maybe

NewGuy01
The likely answer to the question you're asking depends on the difference in power between the two characters in question. Were any of the Councillors even in Traya's league, it likely wouldn't have been so easy. The scene was portraying the gap between Kreia and the rest, not how awesomesauce drain is; I think the choice of attack was irrelevant to that message.

On another note, we don't even know that Traya hadn't prepared the spell beforehand. Look at Lord Paladius from SWTOR; he does something very similar to Nox, draining his essence, and effectively severing his connection to the Force-albeit much slower. He couldn't do it without prep, though.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by NewGuy01
The likely answer to the question you're asking depends on the difference in power between the two characters in question. Were any of the Councillors even in Traya's league, it likely wouldn't have been so easy.

I imagine it'd have take a bit longer than an instant, yeah.



Why make assumptions?

What you see on screen is what you get, inserting speculative variables isn't exactly worthy of occam's razor.

NewGuy01
Which is why it was a suggestion. On a further note, the belief that Traya couldn't insta-drain Sidious in the same manner is also an assumption.

And I have no clue what Occam's Razor is.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Sidious has the power to conjure force storms able to raze planetary surfaces and destroy fleets of ships with shields with around petatons of energy per IIRC

Traya's best feat is being stronger than Surik, who at the most generous interpretation be said to possess teratons of energy for slaying the Greater Storm Beast

Let's think about WHY someone as strong as Sidious wouldn't even notice the loss in energy and stamina as he prepares to smear someone of Traya's power with TK

Palpatine doesn't exactly rip the surfaces off of planets and destroy ships with his own power though, he uses his power to create a wormhole that does those things through physics and shit. Its like suggesting I can punch
through a wall because I can light a stick of dynamite.

At best I'd say Palpatine is about twice as powerful as Traya. Recall that she casually killed 7 Sith at once seemingly without effort. That kind of power isn't a drop to most anyone's ocean.

You are vaaaaastly overrating Sidious compared to Traya. He would definitely notice at least 3 Jedi Council Members worth of power instantly sucked out of him and continuing to be sucked out of him. If indeed that is how the technique works as opposed to the alternative description which describes it as severing one from the Force, not draining.

NewGuy01
According to Paladius's explanation, draining does result in the severing of the Force. Can't say that makes much sense, though.

Nephthys
Paladius' thing isn't the same though.

NewGuy01
In what way is it different, exactly?

Nephthys
Well for one thing its nothing like it at all so there's that.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by Nephthys
Palpatine doesn't exactly rip the surfaces off of planets and destroy ships with his own power though, he uses his power to create a wormhole that does those things through physics and shit. Its like suggesting I can punch
through a wall because I can light a stick of dynamite.

...

>He creates them through his own power to destroy
>some how not his own energy doing the work
>Uses physics as some kind of dodge despite feat analysis being dependent on physics in the first place... are you insinuating its a ****ing hax?
>Still the strongest force technique ever seen in the mythos, powerscaling to much lesser feats is kind of a given from what I understand.



And what about these Sith makes them powerful enough to be considered a measuring stick of worth compared to Sidious?



And your basis for concluding I'm overrating him is?

You said so?

Come on now chuckles, substance is sorely lacking here. Feats, give me a reason to think she can drain the energy he has at his disposal if left defenseless before he just tears her head off with his mind. :maybe

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Which is why it was a suggestion. On a further note, the belief that Traya couldn't insta-drain Sidious in the same manner is also an assumption.

Not really how it works

Traya has a shown limit to the kind of power she herself can actually harness.

That amount of energy is dwarfed by how much force power someone like Sidious would have to draw upon.



This

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well for one thing its nothing like it at all so there's that.
An explanation would be appreciated.

ChaosTheory123
hmm

Suppose to those not used to me I come off as aggressive/hostile in my last post

Sorry about that, I'm kind of crass/an ashole

Nothing personal, I don't take this seriously enough for that kind of shit.

The Merchant
Nah, you're cool lol. KMC users aren't known for their kindness.

ChaosTheory123
True enough :maybe

Suppose I'm used to new posters over yonder recoiling at my posting style normally, hence my little disclaimer.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by The Merchant
Nah, you're cool lol. KMC users aren't known for their kindness.
Wtf is that suppose to mean dipshit? I'm not ****ing nice?

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Wtf is that suppose to mean dipshit? I'm not ****ing nice?

You strike me as a parody of an internet tough guy at times personally so... :maybe

Kallig
Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, not really.

Let's go by Legends/EU and old canon feats:

- Sidious as of TPM is equivalent to Plagueis who can atomize people with telekinetic blasts even when severely injured
- Sidious casually Force-choked Dooku from Coruscant while speaking and maintaing a line of sight with him over the Holonet, while Dooku was on Christophis on the other side of the galaxy
- Sidious as of RoTS is more powerful then same Plagueis whose ambient energy
can affect the entire planetary weather system on Naboo
- Sidious' death on the second Death Star at Endor left a dark side nexus which causes severe pain to Force-users who encounter it
- Sidious mind-****ed and force-drained Byss, a planet with a population of 19 billion people while putting its indigenous citizens in a dream-like mental state while he slowly fed on them and turned the planet into another nexus of dark side energy
- Sidious can create and conjure Force Storms which can wipe out entire fleets and even half a decade after the events of Dark Empire story, it is specifically referenced they still hadn't recovered from the damage his Force Storm did to parts of Coruscant's cityscape
- Sidious kept up the dark shroud even after Plagueis death by himself clouding the precognitive and prescient abilities of a Jedi Order numbering some 10,000+ invididuals including Windu, Yoda, and other notable Knights and Masters
- To TEMPORARILY cut off Reborn Palpatine from the Force, Luke along with Leia and the unborn Anakin Solo had to concentrate the entirety of the light side to severe his control of the Force Storm he created at the end of Dark Empire I
- In the finale of Dark Empire in Empire's End, it took "every single Jedi in history" who died to drag Sidious' soul into the abyss of the Force to keep him locked away in the void for good

Please explain in detail how Traya is comparable to Sidious.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
You strike me as a parody of an internet tough guy at times personally so... :maybe
Of course, I try to keep the entertainment running while still acknowledging members here have at least some value.

@Kallig, welcome... I assume you aren't new to debating, so what forum/website did you originate from? Cheers and welcome!
--The Most Important Guy Here

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Kallig
Plagueis who can atomize people with telekinetic blasts even when severely injured
BTW, I just wanted to point out Plagueis can't atomize people. The text specifically states he didn't, and people take it that he did without realizing the big "but" in front of the word atomize.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Of course, I try to keep the entertainment running while still acknowledging members here have at least some value.

That's always a good thing to do :maybe



He's not new

I can guarantee that much

****er's called Fang where I post for reference :maybe

DarthAnt66
Give me information about his character so I can prematurely make a permanent opinion about him beforehand, and will stick to such opinion throughout the rest of his time here.

ChaosTheory123
He's a good dude that knows the series far better than I ever will

He's also an ashole, much like most of the regulars (ie: me) over there are :maybe

DarthAnt66
Obviously my opinion on him will be based 99% off the following question: What are his thoughts about Revan? http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3388927884.gif

Kallig
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
BTW, I just wanted to point out Plagueis can't atomize people. The text specifically states he didn't, and people take it that he did without realizing the big "but" in front of the word atomize.

The closest of the assassins swung to him with raised vibroblades and rushed forward, only to be flung backward off the canted stage and against the room's curved walls. Others Plagueis felled with his hands by snapping necks and putting his fists through armored torsos. Spreading his arms wide, he clapped his hands together, turning every loose object in the vicinity into a deadly projectile. But the Maladians were far from run-of-the-mill murderers. Members of the cult had killed and wounded Jedi, and in response to confronting Force powers, they didn't shrink or flee but simply changed tactics, moving with astounding agility to surround Plagueis and wait for openings.

The wait lasted only until Plagueis attempted to unleash lightning. His second subsidiary heart failed, paralyzing him with pain and nearly plunging him into unconsciousness. The assassins wasted not a moment, throwing themselves at him in groups, though in a vain attempt to penetrate the Force shield he raised. Again he rallied, this time with a ragged sound dredged from deep inside that erupted from him like a sonic weapon, shattering the eardrums of those within ten meters and compelling the rest to bring their hands to their ears.

In blinding motion his hands and feet smashed skulls and windpipes. He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians. He spun through a turn, dragging the wave halfway around the room to kill half a dozen more. But even that wasn't enough to deter his assailants. They flew against him again, making the most of his momentary weakness to open gashes on his arms and shoulders. Down on one knee, he levitated a Sun Guard blaster from the floor and called it toward him; but one of the assassins succeeded in altering its trajectory by hurling himself into the path of the airborne weapon.

With nothing more than the Force of his mind, Plagueis rattled the floor, knocking some of the assassins off their feet, but others rushed in to take their places, slashing at him with their vibroblades from every angle. He knew that he had life enough to conjure one final counteroffensive. He was a moment from loosing hell on the Maladians when he sensed Sidious enter the room.


Assassinations, murders, and other crimes were no match for the codes of silence that had governed the Order of the Canted Circle, the Gran Protectorate, Santhe Security, and the Jedi High Council almost since their inceptions. Had the elite members and private guards of the Canted Circle not been drugged and found unconscious in dressing rooms and other places, police investigators summoned to the headquarters by two Jedi Knights would never have been allowed to enter the landmark building, let alone the order's vaunted initiation room, in which were discovered the bodies of two Echani, believed to be bodyguards; a dozen Muuns, killed by decapitator disks and vibroblades; and three times that number of Maladian assassins dressed in borrowed robes, who had succumbed to blaster bolts, blunt-force injuries, and, in some cases, traumatic amputations. So scattered were the latter, investigators initially suspected that an explosive device had been detonated, but no trace of a device was ever uncovered.The Muuns were quickly identified as top-ranking members of a clandestine financial group known as Damask Holdings, though its wealthy founder and chief operating officer, Hego Damask, was believed to have survived the sneak attack. The Jedi who had alerted the police never revealed what had drawn them to the Fobosi district to begin with, or why they expressed such interest in the case. As well, the members of the Order of the Canted Circle refused to answer any questions.

At the Malastare embassy in the heart of Coruscant the evidence was even more baffling, and complicated by a fire and ensuing gas explosion that had swept through the building. Fire marshals and forensics specialists were picking through the charred remains of the three-story resiblock when two members of the Jedi Council had paid an unannounced visit. Again, the Jedi had declined to explain their actions, but the police were able to make progress on their own. The amount of blood residue discovered at the scene led investigators to determine that, prior to the arrival of the police, several bodies had been incinerated on site, which suggested the work of elements of organized crime. In the wake of the recent assassination of Senator Vidar Kim, the Senate Investigatory Committee formed a special task force to look into the matter. Many beings were interviewed and interrogated, and many security cam recordings studied during the course of the investigation, but most of the principal players and witnesses hid behind their lawyers, even when threatened with imprisonment for obstruction of justice.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Obviously my opinion on him will be based 99% off the following question: What are his thoughts about Revan? http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3388927884.gif

Think we generally treat him as the lower end of top tier (which obviously ignores shit like the Ones/Bedlam Spirits/etc)

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Kallig
The foresnic droids didn't even find blood stains only impressions and shadows where their bodies were, I'm fairly certain they were atomized.
Nope! big grin

"He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians."
--Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Plagueis also possess more then enough actual energy to do so anyways so it certainly does not come off hyperbole.
Don't mean to sound like a prick but we don't use science calcs as evidence in these ghettos.

Kallig
>We don't use science calcs as evidence
Energy to affect Naboo's weather system even without a calculation would says otherwise and your missing a vital line of narrative from the quote there, my friend.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nope! big grin

"He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians."
--Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

All but would tend to infer he just came up short so...

I'd say you're kind of splitting hairs myself.



My rebuttal to your non answer in my Nyriss vs Traya thread still goes unaddressed fyi :maybe

Not like I'm telling you all to change how you operate, just trying to understand the logic of how shit works here.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Not like I'm telling you all to change how you operate, just trying to understand the logic of how shit works here.
I'm confused over what you are confused about. stick out tongue

ChaosTheory123
I'm not confused, just pointing out your response to my queries weren't actual rebuttals :maybe

DarthAnt66
I didn't have enough interest in them to actually form rebuttals. I feel ill. *shrugs*
It's how the three major Star Wars versus sites been debating since the dawn of time.

ChaosTheory123
That's fair enough, can't force you to be interested in this shit :maybe

Think that's part of the problem, Star Wars vs battles seem kind of insular

There's no real logic behind why you may or may not determine why moving an ISD is more impressive than moving an X-wing other than "because of the weight"... which kind of ignores Yoda's "size matters not" thing :maybe

You're ignoring the other half of the force or energy equation out of some kind of ill conceived convenience as far as I can gather :hmm

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
why moving an ISD is more impressive than moving an X-wing
In my four years of debating now, and looking through threads that date back ten years, I never seen pretty much any issues on judging what is more impressive.
When it is, it involves game mechanics, which is an entire debate in itself. You would be surprised how many forums have the death penalty for even using cutscenes.

The Merchant
The only thing I disagree with is when you said Anakin Solo, Leia, and Luke joined together and used the entire Light-side to beat him. I have the comic, it just says they unlocked each other's potential and used Force Harmony and Force Sever. Not saying that's not impressive but I would really like to know where people are getting the entirety of the Light-side thing, cause it wasn't said in the DE comics.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In my four years of debating now, and looking through threads that date back ten years, I never seen pretty much any issues on judging what is more impressive.
When it is, it involves game mechanics, which is an entire debate in itself. You would be surprised how many forums have the death penalty for even using cutscenes.

You'd be surprised what ignoring physics draws out in terms of ignorant arguments that would otherwise be mocked to hell at if they knew their stance relied on everyone being ignorant :maybe

Galen Marek vs ISD in TFU comes to mind where the desperate claim that, due to already being in free fall, his manipulation of the mass is unimpressive.

Basic knowledge of shit like kinetic energy would tell you how full of shit they are given he accelerates the ship's descent at 2-3 times the original free fall speed it had obtained (which, given the equation KE = 0.5MV^2, means an exponential increase in the energy behind the ship).

The game mechanics thing baffles me, but then again, I debate all fiction and can draw on other examples as for why the exclusion of game feats is stupid :maybe

The Merchant
Yeah Marek moving 10 billion Metric Tons is above a lot of things we see in the Mythos. Heck in the 2nd game his clone charged a Gun that split one in-half.

The Merchant
Also don't forget that Plagueis when he died released force energies that shook Coruscant to its core.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by The Merchant
Yeah Marek moving 10 billion Metric Tons is above a lot of things we see in the Mythos. Heck in the 2nd game his clone charged a Gun that split one in-half.

One of the better showings in the mythos in general, yeah

Not as OP as some might paint him for it, but eh

Originally posted by The Merchant
Also don't forget that Plagueis when he died released force energies that shook Coruscant to its core.

I missed that on my read through :hmm

Have a quote?

Kallig
Originally posted by The Merchant
The only thing I disagree with is when you said Anakin Solo, Leia, and Luke joined together and used the entire Light-side to beat him. I have the comic, it just says they unlocked each other's potential and used Force Harmony and Force Sever. Not saying that's not impressive but I would really like to know where people are getting the entirety of the Light-side thing, cause it wasn't said in the DE comics.

I suppose its open to interruption with the severing of his control over the Force Storm. I do not see anything about potential, only that Leia helps Luke open back up to the Light Side.

Kallig
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
One of the better showings in the mythos in general, yeah

Not as OP as some might paint him for it, but eh



I missed that on my read through :hmm

Have a quote?

A tremor took hold of the planet. Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world's core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake's epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn't constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification-a gravitic shift.

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him. Slowly, almost reluctantly, he came back to himself, his gaze settling on his manicured hands. Returned to the present, he took note of his rapid breathing, while behind him the room labored to restore order. Air scrubbers hummed-costly wall tapestries undulating in the summoned breeze. Prized carpets sealed their fibers against the spread of spilled fluids. The droid shuffled in obvious confliction. Sidious pivoted to take in the disarray: antique furniture overturned; framed artwork askew. As if a whirlwind had swept through. And facedown on the floor lay a statue of Yanjon, one of four law-giving sages of Dwartii.

A piece Sidious had secretly coveted.

Also sprawled there, Plagueis: his slender limbs splayed and elongated head turned to one side.

Dressed in finery, as for a night on the town.

And now dead.

Kallig
Eh best destructive feats in the mythos for EU can be stuff like Luke becoming the essence of an immovable object while generating energy and telekinetic power surpassing that of the engines required to move the mass of a star dreadnought class Super Star Destroyer in the Dark Nest/Swarm War Trilogy.

Sedriss and a certain Tales of the Jedi surviving Jedi Master using the energies of a planet to kill each other in Dark Empire II while battling on Ossus, another Jedi Master containing the energies of a planetary scale dark side energies into a lake, Kun force-draining the Massassai on Yavin 4, and others stand out.

The Merchant
And resist the pull of a Supermassive Blackhole.

Kallig
That part was hyperbole I think. Though Luke is capable of matching Abeloth after the power up he receives with Ben from the Aing Ti's Codex in the Force, which projects his power to the senses to the Lost Tribe of Sith, who are physically harmed by sensing his Force aura. And being match of Abeloth who could indirectly vaporize an entire city and cause thousands to implode near her while those further out where vaporized and the cityscape itself slagged.

As well as having the raw power to stuff an entire planet's worth of dark side energy into a single woman and cause an explosion of energy so potently that it triggers volcanic eruptions and causes a massive supercell of lightning storms on a global scale.

Zampanů
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Don't mean to sound like a prick but we don't use science calcs as evidence in these ghettos.
You're mistaken about the particulars, but correct nonetheless. We do not use pseudoscientific guesses as power-meters for characters who may interact in a number of ways which are not best represented by relational operators on the real line. This is why so-called "abc logic" is almost automatically scoffed at, despite the apparent lack of active members who can specify the ways in which such arguments usually fail.

To wit, coming up with the number of Mana points that Traya has access to in comparison to Sidious, or quantifying the "size" of a drain (sever) attack, is probably not going to be met with much respect. This is particularly relevant given ChaosTheory123's apparent determination to lowball characters from KotOR II. His methodology is flawed, in general, and his conclusions specious, in particular. Concern about "teratons" is misplaced when characters have a variety of different techniques which all interact (in concert and in isolation) in a variety of often unpredictable ways.

Neph was correct in all postings in the thread so far:

Regardless of technique's mechanism (see 2) the onscreen results are such that no character is likely to tank or ignore it.
There is evidence that it is not a drain.
Traya's power level is not "a drop in the ocean compared to the ocean that is Sidious."
Sidious uses efficient techniques and protracted rituals to accomplish his best feats, and it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
Traya's feats are particularly impressive, even within the exaggerated scope of the 2 KotOR era games.
(i insist that there are only 2 games lol)
The drain used by N. and Traya is qualitatively different from that developed and preserved by the Ancient Sith, which is (presumably) what Paladius had access to.

ChaosTheory123

Nephthys
Thank you for the support Zam. <3

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
...

>He creates them through his own power to destroy
>some how not his own energy doing the work
>Uses physics as some kind of dodge despite feat analysis being dependent on physics in the first place... are you insinuating its a ****ing hax?
>Still the strongest force technique ever seen in the mythos, powerscaling to much lesser feats is kind of a given from what I understand.

> He tears open space and time or whatever and then controls and directs the forces that unleashes.
> If Sidious really had the power in him to rip fleets apart or tear the surfaces off of worlds, then why would he need to create the Force Storm at all instead of just using TK?
> Claims to use physics to prove his point. Fails to use physics to defend his argument.
> I'm not arguing it isn't powerful (Nihilus' drain > tho) just that it doesn't make Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Traya.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
And what about these Sith makes them powerful enough to be considered a measuring stick of worth compared to Sidious?

Naturally the Sith don't compare to Sidious. But the combined power of all 7 of them is definitely a good measuring stick for a comparison with him. Being able to effortlessly murder 7 of them with the Force demonstrates an impeccable level of power that's right up there with other powerhouses. Powerhouses who I can't see Sidious as being over twice as powerful than. Sidious isn't that far ahead of someone like Traya.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
And your basis for concluding I'm overrating him is?

You said so?

Come on now chuckles, substance is sorely lacking here. Feats, give me a reason to think she can drain the energy he has at his disposal if left defenseless before he just tears her head off with his mind. :maybe

A good half-dozen years of debating on these topics and exhaustively determining Sidious and Traya's respective places in the mythos in terms of power? Traya smacked around and insta-killed 3 Jedi Council Members, murdered 7 Sith assassins at once with ease, had incredibly advanced telepathic and telekinetic abilities and was more powerful than the Jedi Exile who turned the Trayas Academy into a charnel house. She is very powerful and much more than a drop in a bucket compared to Sidious. Sure he might still be capable of choking the shit out of her like he did to Dooku. But there's no way he eclipses her as thoroughly as you think.

Also, again, theres reasons to think it isn't a drain.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Not really how it works

Traya has a shown limit to the kind of power she herself can actually harness.

That amount of energy is dwarfed by how much force power someone like Sidious would have to draw upon.

She actually hasn't shown a limit. There's a limit to what she's shown, but simply because she hasn't demonstrated greater than that doesn't mean she cannot exceed her efforts. Particularly since she showed no effort while draining the Jedi Masters and since she would have grown more powerful after performing that feat.

Nephthys
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
An explanation would be appreciated.

Ok.

Its very slow despite the other technique being exceedingly quick.
There's no mention of complete severance from the force or the creation of absences in the Force like in Traya's feat.
There's no mention of the technique killing its victim, instead Paladius seems to think he has to kill Nox another way.
It works completely differently. Paladius mentions Nox's essence being drained at the same time as her force connection being severed, when Traya describes the technique as severing one from the force and then feeding upon the death that causes.
It looks visually different from what is shown in both Kotor 2 and in Unseen, Unheard.
Paladius exhibits none of the symptoms the technique causes in it's users, which he should show if he's progressed to the point of conscious, directed use of it and he mentions he's had to repeatedly use it against rival Sith.
Paladius exhibits none of the secondary benefits of the technique seen in the Trayas Assassins, the Exile and Nihilus.
None of what Paladius does resembles any variation of the technique seen in Kotor 2. Nothing like what any of the Exile, the assassins, Traya or Nihilus do.

Furthermore, part of Traya's plan was the utterly and completely destroy all knowledge of the technique and means to learn it and there's no known way for Paladius to have acquired it in the TOR era.

The_Tempest
http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/GIF-bye-disdain-disgust-disgusted-do-not-want-gross-leaving-loathing-nauseated-no-thanks-WTF-GIF.gif

Put politely, that's silly.

The Emperor can cause planetary damage via Force storm. The fact that he's not known to do so by other means you arbitrarily find to be more indicative of great power is irrelevant. No one here has claimed that Sidious can defile worlds with brute TK and so the distinction you attempt to make is meaningless and a transparent, clumsy attempt to mock and belittle a character you don't like and the many noble users who defend him. {Not to mention the fact that you leave yourself vulnerable to similar objections with regard to Traya, Nihilus, Vitiate, etc.}

Badabing won't tolerate such tomfoolery. Be careful. thumb up

Nephthys
I never claimed that he couldn't, or that it isn't indicative of great power. Being able to tear open spacetime and control such a thing is still incredibly impressive. I'm just saying that it's not so to the degree's ChaosTheory believes it to be and doesn't suggest Sidious is miles above everyone else.

Also your attempts to try and turn Bada's policies back on us is an extremely infantile and impotent display. Nothing about my post was mocking. Stop trying to speak for him and backseat mod.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I never claimed that he couldn't, or that it isn't indicative of great power. Being able to tear open spacetime and control such a thing is still incredibly impressive. I'm just saying that it's not so to the degree's ChaosTheory believes it to be and doesn't suggest Sidious is miles above everyone else.

That depends how much prestige you ascribe to feats. ChaosTheory is right: it's a feat in vast excess of what most Force users have demonstrated or are capable of and to claim or insinuate otherwise is silly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also your attempts to try and turn Bada's policies back on us is an extremely infantile and impotent display. Nothing about my post was mocking. Stop trying to speak for him and backseat mod.

I'm not speaking for anyone. Your behavior indicates that you're laboring under the delusion that Badabing is limiting his pronouncements to specific users and with regards to specific characters. But he made it pretty clear that none of that behavior will be tolerated from anyone. Not from carthage, and not from you.

Stop mocking Sidious and his defenders. It's hypocritical and pretty shitty.

Zampanů
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That depends how much prestige you ascribe to feats. ChaosTheory is right: it's a feat in vast excess of what most Force users have demonstrated or are capable of and to claim or insinuate otherwise is silly.


Stop mocking Sidious and his defenders. It's hypocritical and pretty shitty.

Sidious isn't being mocked. What's being mocked is the idea that generating estimates about joules by way of damage estimates from the Force Storm wormholes could in any context contribute a meaningful answer. The implication of ChaosTheory's methodology is that we can simply compare the watts from Palpatine and the watts from Surik and let the most efficient capacitor be the victor.

The specific mechanism by which ABC logic fails is the same reason that I don't bother digging out the specific numbers that I ran for N.'s Ravager feat. To wit, characters with similar "Force Power" pools can achieve vastly different results, and the variance within each character's showings is large as well. Even the same Force technique, applied in different situations, will interact differently with another character's skillset. For example, there's a character in NJO who is really good at energy manipulation and really bad at telekinesis. Given Bane and N.'s aptitudes, I'd put his survival at significantly longer against Bane than against N.

Beyond just interesting technique interactions, there's the variety of factors which we hardly ever have access to. Does character A experience dark-side emotions more keenly than character B? This becomes really important when they fight Mace Windu. If these factors influence the techniques themselves, then a Force push of 10 (whatever units you like) from character A might be more difficult to defend against than a Force push with the same magnitude from character B. The Exile / N. is a good example of this, but not the only one. Dooku used something like Force crush against Kenobi on Invisible Hand with an output of more than enough energy to ragdoll his body (given that the body was moved AND a few ribs were constricted). Whatever Force defense Kenobi had was insufficient. But Kar Vastor used a Force throw on Mace who was able to redirect, rather than directly counter, the applied energy. So small differences in technique lead to very different outcomes, even with similar orders of magnitude work/energy considerations.
<><><>
Now, why am I replying to you instead of ChaosTheory? Because this idea of mocking Sidious seems like a rhetorical device that could completely derail the thread. I'd like to make very plain that specifying a mechanism for a great feat is not mockery. Saying that there is a difference in kind between the times Sidious ravaged planets' surfaces and the time Bane ravaged planets' surfaces doesn't detract from either feat. It simply reinforces the idea that comparisons aren't uni-dimensional.

...Unless you think any comparison between Sidious and other Sith is a mockery of Sidious, in which case I can't help you wink

ChaosTheory123
Seeing as how using Sidious as an example got some of you hot and bothered enough to derail the original premise, I'll rephrase it here before I get into Neph's post :maybe

To stave off semantic argument, this character will be hypothetical and unestablished as existing... given I'm probably begging for someone to come in and cite a low showing or two to further avoid answering the ****ing question :maybe

A random universal being, who by which through any of their attacks could one shot a universe is standing there... unprotected from a force drain attack.

Traya happens upon them and tries to drain them of all that power

Does she instantly drain all that energy? If so, how and why?

What evidence do you possess? Do any of you know what appeals to ignorance and the derivative fallacy of no limits are? :hmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
> He tears open space and time or whatever and then controls and directs the forces that unleashes.

So you're saying it's a hax?



I'd argue it's pretty much the same reasons why a character like Goku has various techniques at his disposal ranging from a generic ki blast to a kamehameha

Bearing in mind he could just as easily detonate a planet with a weak ki attack compared to something like a kamehameha.

That said, I tend to chalk that kind of thing up to bad writing or some inherent character flaw like arrogance when I encounter it in a given series.

I'm neither a Sidious supporter, or even someone that has read DE though. I'm pretty much just aware of the feats.

Maybe I'm wrong, why don't you show me why?



Then educate me

What about the theoretical physics concept of a wormhole contradicts my interpretation of the technique?

Your rebuttal at this bullet was literally "physics happens" with no actual WHY explained

This is 2 for 2 so far around here by the way, is substance in an argument so difficult to come by? It's great that you believe something, but debating it requires explaining why.



There's plenty in the mythos without this feat that would implicate it the same

But I suppose this board hates to acknowledge things like powerscaling between techniques

Which to be fair isn't actually something I'm trying to challenge I guess



Why? Where does the conclusion Sidious = 7 random Sith stems from?

Explain.



It's a good feat, just doesn't tell me much without a frame of reference.

Or, more specifically, without powerscaling or playing some connect the dots, I fail to see why this is so amazing.

Connect those dots for me, given this is your argument.



An entire line wasted on argument from belief, really?



Then fill in the uninitiated :maybe



You're telling me nothing I don't know. Funnily enough, most of my knowledge base IS KOTOR/TOR/Tales of the Jedi and all :maybe

Now, let's play connect the dots, why's this so impressive compared to what Sidious has accomplished?



Not sure why you latched onto the hyperbole when the only thing you needed to take away from it was that someone with Sidious' power could resist the technique solely through having better reserves of force power to draw upon, thus requiring Traya to drain him for more than an instant.



And you'll explain why?

Because that seems to be an issue here :maybe

Debate kind of requires me understanding why for proper discussion to occur.



No, she has, if only in the sense it's all we have to work with.

Just because she hasn't shown greater, doesn't mean we should assume she can do more and all.

That'd be an appeal to ignorance, specifically the variation dubbed "no limits fallacy".

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by The_Tempest

Stop mocking Sidious and his defenders. It's hypocritical and pretty shitty.

I want to clarify?

I support Star Wars

Not Sidious :maybe

Hell, if I were to pick favorites, Sidious isn't even making the top... 20?

Revan is more my thing :maybe

That said, I don't mind a few ineffectual barbs from people I'm talking to online, especially over something as silly as fictional character battles

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Stop mocking Sidious and his defenders. It's hypocritical and pretty shitty.
Sidious sucks dick.

ChaosTheory123

Zampanů
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
I'd have gone with "I don't feel like it" myself

Your explanation works too

Either way, you're not exactly obligated to respond to me and all that fun shit, so no need to reference why you're not as far as I'm concerned.



As hyperbolic as the statement itself was?

Don't delude yourself chuckles.

Sidious conjures storms that devastate planetary surfaces, something laughably more draining and energy demanding than anything Traya has ever accomplished.


See, this is the part that really crinkles my oatmeal. Like you know for a fact that devastating planetary surfaces is not actually a descriptor on the feat {conjures storms} that moderates the difficulty or energy draining nature of Force Storm in the slightest. Book of Sith says Sidious summons them "with a thought" and we see in DE that the destruction rages on without continuous input from Sidious himself. If anything, Force Storm is a control feat, not a strength feat.

To then turn around and say that {destroys planet surfaces} is the indicator of power that you're interested in is disingenuous sophistry of the worst kind, and a tactic that I won't let you hide behind.



The rest of your post falls under Neph's argument so I'm trying to stay out of it other than asserting that Neph is correct.

Eminence
As a general query, when did this disconcerting thing become a thing?

ChaosTheory123

psmith81992
Originally posted by Eminence
As a general query, when did this disconcerting thing become a thing?



Spit out my water twice laughing at these two comments.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That depends how much prestige you ascribe to feats. ChaosTheory is right: it's a feat in vast excess of what most Force users have demonstrated or are capable of and to claim or insinuate otherwise is silly.

One of the top tier force users has feats vastly above most force users? You don't say. I said that it's a good feat, it just isn't to the degree's that ChaosTheory is saying. Would you call Traya a drop in the ocean compared to Sidious?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not speaking for anyone. Your behavior indicates that you're laboring under the delusion that Badabing is limiting his pronouncements to specific users and with regards to specific characters. But he made it pretty clear that none of that behavior will be tolerated from anyone. Not from carthage, and not from you.

Stop mocking Sidious and his defenders. It's hypocritical and pretty shitty.

You said that Bada won't tolerate my behavior. How is that not speaking for him? I'm not mocking Sidious in the slightest. That you see any dissenting opinion about Sidious' power as an attack speaks of the fragility of your beliefs though tbh. I don't see myself as exempt from mod action, I just know that my behavior isn't even close to problematic. That you seem desperate to get me into trouble does uh, trouble me though. I suggest you calm down.

Kallig

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by Nephthys
One of the top tier force users has feats vastly above most force users? You don't say. I said that it's a good feat, it just isn't to the degree's that ChaosTheory is saying. Would you call Traya a drop in the ocean compared to Sidious?


I'm not particularly a fan of it either

My sense of scale however is tempered by different tools for debate than you all seem to be accustomed to

Still not the point of this thread

I'm asking if you all seem to genuinely believe Force Drain can drain any amount of energy instantly with no limits

Which is kind of the impression I'm getting

Thus I ask to understand WHY

Mostly because I'm bored and Ant drew my attention to the curiosity.

**** me I suppose for trying to model this question with a hypothetical you all could relate to and possibly understand in context though :maybe

Kallig
Originally posted by Nephthys
One of the top tier force users has feats vastly above most force users? You don't say. I said that it's a good feat, it just isn't to the degree's that ChaosTheory is saying. Would you call Traya a drop in the ocean compared to Sidious?


You never responded to my post earlier in the thread. No one is claiming Traya isn't a repectable Force-User in terms of skill or power, but there is a huge gulf between her and Sidious.

Let me know when she force-drains entire worlds, disables the precognitive abilities of the entire Jedi Order, and surpass even with her mere presence alone the ambient energy to affect the weather system of entire worlds on a global scale.

She ate four Jedi Master with Force Drain? Cool.

Sidious did it to a planet of 20 billion. So color anyone else skeptical of the claim that even if Traya fired off a force-drain attack on Sidious, its not going to kill him.

Most people who know the technique know how to defend against it and ultimately, most of this board seems to invoke a no limits argument and abuse it for her or others as a catch-all victory strategy.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
I'm not particularly a fan of it either

My sense of scale however is tempered by different tools for debate than you all seem to be accustomed to

Still not the point of this thread

I'm asking if you all seem to genuinely believe Force Drain can drain any amount of energy instantly with no limits

Which is kind of the impression I'm getting

Thus I ask to understand WHY

Mostly because I'm bored and Ant drew my attention to the curiosity.

**** me I suppose for trying to model this question with a hypothetical you all could relate to and possibly understand in context though :maybe

But it is kind of vital to the argument that you were making. That is, that Sidious is so hilariously above Traya that he wouldn't even notice or be affected by her drain. I don't see that as the case, hence why I still regard the drain as a big shiny "I win" button. If even someone as powerful as Sidious isn't so far above Traya (or Nihilus) that he wouldn't still be defeated by it, then I find no issue with continuing to regard it as an insta-win ability in threads. It may not instantly defeat someone, but Traya still has instantly won by using it.

Now the One's, I would definitely agree that Traya couldn't drain enough quick enough to avoid being popped like a cherry. But for almost all regular force users, that doesn't apply.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by Nephthys
But it is kind of vital to the argument that you were making.

It wasn't really all that vital though, because it became incredibly apparent my framing device didn't work to convey the initial intent of this thread

I tried to correct that a few times in my posts during this derailment in fact :maybe



This

This was all I was looking for

Ant said you all seem to think it's an instant win, I was curious of what sort of context and to what extremes you all were pushing it

Even if the benchmark from board to board isn't the same, I'm happy to note some form of sense seems to exist :maybe

Nephthys
So should I still respond to your big post or....

Originally posted by Kallig
You never responded to my post earlier in the thread. No one is claiming Traya isn't a repectable Force-User in terms of skill or power, but there is a huge gulf between her and Sidious.

Let me know when she force-drains entire worlds, disables the precognitive abilities of the entire Jedi Order, and surpass even with her mere presence alone the ambient energy to affect the weather system of entire worlds on a global scale.

She ate four Jedi Master with Force Drain? Cool.

Sidious did it to a planet of 20 billion. So color anyone else skeptical of the claim that even if Traya fired off a force-drain attack on Sidious, its not going to kill him.

Most people who know the technique know how to defend against it and ultimately, most of this board seems to invoke a no limits argument and abuse it for her or others as a catch-all victory strategy.

And I didn't suggest there wasn't a huge gulf between her and Sidious. Just that it isn't so vast that he wouldn't be affected by her attack or that he's like 5 times as powerful as her. He isn't. I wouldn't even say he's twice her.

Sidious' drain of Byss happened off-screen over an unknown period of time through an unknown method with an unknown amount of preparation and aid. It isn't a quantifiable feat and it doesn't establish how much more powerful he is than Traya.

Also you're wrong, no one knows how to defend against it. Traya specifically states there's no defense. The Exile resisted Nihilus' drain because of her unique nature and from being his exact opposite but other than that they only method of resistance is the fanon theory that Ulic Qel'Droma's technique for resisting the Dark Reaper could also work against the Kotor 2 drain.

Kallig
Originally posted by Nephthys
So should I still respond to your big post or....



And I didn't suggest there wasn't a huge gulf between her and Sidious. Just that it isn't so vast that he wouldn't be affected by her attack or that he's like 5 times as powerful as her. He isn't. I wouldn't even say he's twice her.

The fact that TPM Sidious is equal to Darth Plagueis who possess several fold more energy then her suggests he is more then "twice" as powerful as Traya.



Its stated and clarified in the Star Wars Atlas, and occurs after the events of the Battle of Endor in RoTJ. And on top of which, there is no indication of magic, rituals, or prep required and its explicitly clarified as "slow" because Palpatine wanted to feast on the planet as he drained it.

To many in the galaxy Byss was a myth-a mysterious paradise ruled by Emperor Palpatine as his personal retreat, where the Empire's most loyal subjects lived lives of idle leisure. And, in fact, Byss was once a lush and fertile planet---but it became a terrible trap, corrupted by the hellish energies of the dark side.

After choosing Byss as his resort world, Palpatine lured eager nobles to the planet---then used his dark powers to enslave its people, channeling their life energies for use in his own vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel. Most of Byss' inhabitants lived in a dream-like state, their offworld communications censored.

Yeah, don't think so.



Luke defended against a Force-Drain from both Abeloth and Darth Krayt in Fate of the Jedi. Traya is not omniscient and is fallible. Exar Kun, Sadow, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord, and Kallig all state and show that power can be matched or defeated.

Ergast developed an off-shoot ability based off Tulak Hord's unique Force-devouring technique with the Force Walk and explains it can be learned and used in both offense and defense. Traya also originally claims only people with affinity for Force-Drain can use the technique but Ergast and other ancient Sith contradict her.

Not buying it.

Sorry, too much material contradicts Traya's claim.



Anakin also resisted the Dark Reaper, and the technique could actually be taught. You're just claiming no limits on the Force Drain ability and its clearly untrue.

DarthAnt66

Kallig
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lol no he didn't. Educate yourself and read some Star Wars lore. Comprehend:

If you are going to tell someone to "educate themselves", you might want to not try and snip out the relevant parts of the fight and cherry pick a segment in a novel to attack another on.

DarthAnt66
I merely quoted the parts that involved the Force Drain. You quoted the entire fight, but no where does it say Luke defended against such Force Drain. What a failure. thumb up

Kallig
You got called out for trying to snipe taking a scene out of context. You're in no position to talk about anyone else's failure, mate.

Also:



>kicked out Krayt's knee
>breaking the joint
>able to actively move while being actively targeted and attacked by the Force Drain from Krayt

Nah, really don't think so.

DarthAnt66
@ first post before edit Lmfao, what the **** are you talking about? I use the appropriate shit of the battle that talked about Force Drain. What was I suppose to do, quote the entire passage when only referencing to a few short lines? That's not how we do things here. Now, go make fetch me something to drink before I lose interest in you entirely. You are dismissed.

Kallig
That's a lot of nothing but empty wind there, mate. You were dishonest, and called out on it. You delibartely ignored the segment where Luke while restraining Abeloth, is capable of hitting and injuring Krayt with a ****ing kick while under attack from his Force-Drain.

You are in no position to talk about anyone's credibility, dude.

>You are dismissed

Uh huh.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Kallig
>kicked out Krayt's knee
>breaking the joint
>able to actively move while being actively targeted and attacked by the Force Drain from Krayt

Nah, really don't think so.
Being able to move around during at a Force Drain aimed specifically at Abeloth is not resisting said Force Drain when the text specifically notes Luke was being injured by such drain. thumb up

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Kallig
That's a lot of nothing but empty wind there, mate. You were dishonest, and called out on it..
Dishonest? I quoted the ****ing passage. I once again repeat: What did I purposely leave out that was important to Force Drain?

Kallig
Where is the text? Because the quote going after your passage says otherwise.

>emoticon goes here

>Dishonest?

So you don't find it dishonest how you ignored Luke's ability to actively fight off the Force-Drain and attack Krayt as being relevant to the statement I made earlier of Luke able to defend against it and not fall to a Force-Drain attack?

You really are something.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Kallig
Where is the text? Because the quote going after your passage says otherwise.

>emoticon goes here

>Dishonest?

So you don't find it dishonest how you ignored Luke's ability to actively fight off the Force-Drain and attack Krayt as being relevant to the statement I made earlier of Luke able to defend against it and not fall to a Force-Drain attack?

You really are something.
No, lmfao, not at all. I left it out because Luke doing physical combat is not a display of resistance Force Drain. no expression The text specifically states the drain was successfully draining away at Luke.
Luke doing attacks while being influenced negatively by Force Drain is not a resistance to Force Drain, but rather a display of Luke's mental and pain resistance, and also probably endurance too.

Kallig
The passage explicitly states that Abeloth was draining faster and Luke was capable of activley harming Krayt to the point he broke his leg. So yes, you were wrong all the same.

Every other depication of Force-Drain has show the victim if unable to resist, completely paraylzed and dying instantly. So either Krayt sucks ass at Force-Draining or Luke was actively defending against it after realizing Krayt was targeting him.



Look at that.
Either way the last passage agrees to nothing your claim about him not being able to defend against it.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Kallig
The passage explicitly states that Abeloth was draining faster and Luke was capable of activley harming Krayt to the point he broke his leg. So yes, you were wrong all the same.
The passage states Abeloth was draining faster because Krayt literally stuck his hands inside of her and drained. His intent wasn't to drain Luke, but rather to drain Abeloth, hence why majority of the energy was going to her. Of course if you had a basic understanding on Star Wars lore you would be able to understand this. And no, there is a large difference between literally resistancing the harmful influence of Force Drain and being able to do activities while under the harmful influence of Force Drain. Luke did the latter, and hence why I disagree with the laughable motion that it is an example of actually resistancing Force Drain.

Every other depication of Force-Drain has show the victim if unable to resist, completely paraylzed and dying instantly.
This statement is so wrong an entire civilization in the remote forests of the Amazon just had to offer fifteen human sacrifices. Both Revan and the Emperor are examples of individuals who slowly drained the Force energy of others: "Revan could feel the Emperor feeding off him, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger. Though the two were physically separated by a dozen parsecs, there was still an unbreakable mental link, fashioned by the Emperor and sustained by the infernal machines powering the cell." and "As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war."

Kallig
And Traya's draining of the the Jedi High Council? All depictions with Nihilus and the Exile? The fact that dealing with 8000 Sith Lords had Vitiate use a Sith spell to paraylze their minds then drain them?

Not seeing much contradiction and you still aren't addressing the fact Luke is actively able to use the Force while actively attacked by Krayt and under the influence of an offensive Foce-drain. So I'm gonna go with a resounding no.

So let's recap:

- Luke is able to actively move and counter-attack as well as injure and cripple Krayt when targeted with a Force-Drain and restraining Abeloth at the same time
- Luke is able to use the Force to generate Force energy attacks as noted as summoning a Force Blast to defend against Krayt when Abeloth temporarily disappears
- Luke notes the drain is not effective as him as it is against in Abeloth

Nah, buddy.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Kallig
And Traya's draining of the the Jedi High Council? All depictions with Nihilus and the Exile?
As Nephthys was trying to explain to you, Traya and the like use a variation of Force Drain unlike the other Sith Lords.

Originally posted by Kallig
The fact that dealing with 8000 Sith Lords had Vitiate use a Sith spell to paraylze their minds then drain them?
What? Vitiate drained them via a huge ritual.

Originally posted by Kallig
Not seeing much contradiction and you still aren't addressing the fact Luke is actively able to use the Force while actively attacked by Krayt.
That's because you don't understand how Force Drain works. thumb up

Originally posted by Kallig

Erm, none of this qualifies as Luke resistance the effects of Force Drain. It might on your boards, but not here. Luke's method of trying to defend himself from the Force Drain was to do Force attacks of his own, not actually try to put up some sort of defense to resist the drain, which actually aids the canonical statements in the novelization stating that Luke was being affected by the Force Drain.

Despite your belief, Force users can use Force attacks while being Force Drained. thumb up

Kallig
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As Nephthys was trying to explain to you, Traya and the like use a variation of Force Drain unlike the other Sith Lords.

No, there is no variation in the Force Drain, only scope or lethality dependent on individual practitioners or users.



Did you actually not read the Revan novel or did you merely skim through what the author wrote? The ritual to drain Nathema was performed by Vitiate and 8000 other Sith Lords. Then Vitiate mentally dominated the minds of the other Sith Lords and put all of the draining of the planet and civilization into his own self, thereby becoming immortal.

Revan only confirms he can do this after his power-up from said Nathema ritual, not beforehand by himself.




You've actually only proven you don't understand.



This is a whole lotta of semantics without any sort of actual rebuttal or working substance. There is not a single indication of anyone unable to resist a Force Drain being able to alternatively use the Force to defend or attack the person draining them. Luke is able to actively move around, use the Force, injure his attacker, and notes the drain is working weaker against him implying he's defending and resistant to it.



So this is your finishing counter-argument? You were called out for sniping and manipulating the context of a segment in the final fight with Luke vs Abeloth vs Krayt in Fate of the Jedi and being dishonest, and you have nothing to show for it.

There is nothing in KoTOR II, TOR, or any other work that supports your claim or argument about this.

Oh and that tidbit with the Sith Emperor/Vitiate and Revan? That was because Revan was bloodly being amped and supported by Meetra Surik's spirit for 300 years the entire damn time. So yes, even that is circumspect because its damn obvious Revan would not have influenced Vitiate's mind during his drainings if Surik wasn't there with him for those centuries.

DarthAnt66

Kallig
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

I disagree, but I feel Nephthys presents a better argument for this particular matter then I do.

Not really from what I've seen.



I don't recall you being open about it either. The Nathema ritual was a complex bit of sorcery which Vitiate needed and required the power of 8000 Sith Lords. He able to drain planets and populations by himself afterwards because of the tremendous power boosting.



What Sith? I just remember a small number of Sith soldiers and Tobin, and Visas being unique as Nihilus' shadow hand and connection to the Force whose the exception to the rule.



Is this supposed to prove something? Quoting empty bits?



However deliberately ignoring and not posting the following passage showing Luke breaking Krayt's leg and able to use the Force shows he has high resistance and was actively defending against it, would be in my eyes and most others.

And you started this entire tangent claiming otherwise and trying to misrepresent the scene by only posting evidence of Krayt attacking Luke with the Force-Drain, and not posting the rest of it showing Luke resisting it and attacking Krayt.

So yes I find that to be dishonest.

DarthAnt66
I don't recall denying this either. Keep trying, buddy. thumb up

"DARTH NIHILUS: The colossal bridge of the Ravager, featuring a panoramic view of space and the globe of Telos, is where Darth Nihilus awaits. The Lord of Hunger is protected by several chambers full of Dark Jedi and Sith heavy troopers. You must defeat these minions to reach the bridge and challenge Darth Nihilus himself." --Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Guide

Once again, Luke attacking Krayt is not a display of resistance Force Drain. A display of resitancing Force Drain is, you know, actually forming something like Ulic taught Anakin to do that made such person immune to its effects. No such thing happened.

Kallig
>actively resisting Force-Drain and using the Force at the same time isn't resisting the Force-Drain
>Luke does this

So actually it is evidence of it. Now do you want to move the goal posts or try to strawman something else here? Because you don't have any evidence to contradict anything I said, and this back and forth is getting annoying.

DarthAnt66
How is the narrator noting, "Then Luke felt an icy twinge between his shoulder blades. The twinge became a sting, and he began to feel something cold flowing down the center of his back," and "They stayed like that for an eternity, a void of cold nothingness growing inside Luke as the stranger continued to hang in the air above, draining him," not permanent evidence Luke was affected by the drain? :facepalm:

Kallig
Did I say Luke wasn't affected by the Force-Drain? Or did I say after he was being attacked with it he was capable of resisting it and attacking Krayt, which is showcased in the following passage?

You seem to look at the attack but not the portion of the exposition showing him fighting afterwards while resisting it. Work on that.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Kallig
Did I say Luke wasn't affected by the Force-Drain? Or did I say after he was being attacked with it he was capable of resisting it and attacking Krayt, which is showcased in the following passage?
You can't be both being affected and resisting it. erm Your argument gets more crappier every post you make.

NewGuy01
Sure you can. Look at Maul vs Mighella.

Kallig
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You can't be both being affected and resisting it. erm Your argument gets more crappier every post you make.

Yes you can.

Look at Luke and Kam Solusar in Dark Empire getting attacked by Sedriss and another Dark Adept's Force-Choke before Luke and Kam both brush it off and remove the dark sider's telekinetic attack.

DarthAnt66
@Sasukedc That's Force Lightning @Kallig Force Telekinesis, not Force Drain. wink I mean, based on the text never stating Luke formed any protection against the drain, and rather his only defense to it was trying to get Krayt to stop draining him, nothing suggests Luke was actively being affected and resisting it: but rather just the first. erm

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You can't be both being affected and resisting it. erm Your argument gets more crappier every post you make.

Never played an RPG have you? :maybe

Partial resistance is a thing, which is what I think he's going for

Sort of like how in an RPG a given creature might possess 50% resistance to a given element or spell and take less damage

That kind of thing can possibly be inferred here by the weaker rate of consumption

I think

That's what I took away from the end of the passage without additional context anyway

Kallig
So you conveniently ignore that Luke is physically holding and restraining Abeloth, and is still capable of resisting his Force-Drain, can use the Force, and can break Krayt's leg and say his only defense is "asking" Krayt to remove it when in the same passage Luke is gathering Force to use another Force Blast on Krayt after breaking his leg?

You have a shoddy way of looking at things.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Never played an RPG have you? :maybe

Partial resistance is a thing, which is what I think he's going for

Sort of like how in an RPG a given creature might possess 50% resistance to a given element or spell and take less damage

That kind of thing can possibly be inferred here by the weaker rate of consumption

I think

That's what I took away from the end of the passage without additional context anyway
Those kind of game mechanics aren't credible for debates.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Kallig
So you conveniently ignore that Luke is physically holding and restraining Abeloth, and is still capable of resisting his Force-Drain, can use the Force, and can break Krayt's leg and say his only defense is "asking" Krayt to remove it when in the same passage Luke is gathering Force to use another Force Blast on Krayt after breaking his leg?
Luke trying to Force Blast Krayt was in effort to get Krayt to stop draining him, proving he couldn't form any sort of energy barrier to defend himself.

SIDIOUS 66

Kallig
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke trying to Force Blast Krayt was in effort to get Krayt to stop draining him, proving he couldn't form any sort of energy barrier to defend himself.

Where does it prove anything? Luke notes the drain is working less effectively against him and has no issue using and summoning Force energy to battle Krayt, which in context, if he was completely affected by the Force-Drain he wouldn't be able to fight Krayt off or attack at all.

So no, occam's razor says your wrong.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Those kind of game mechanics aren't credible for debates.

...

Kiddo

Don't be so literal minded, please

It's an analogy to convey similarity, not game mechanics

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Kallig
Luke notes the drain is working less effectively against him and has no issue using.
Like I said earlier, this is because Darth Krayt was specifically trying to drain Abeloth, and even had his hands inside of her during it.

and summoning Force energy to battle Krayt, which in context
Not proof at all. Dark Jedi can summon Force energy while being drained by someone as powerful as Darth Nihilus.

if he was completely affected by the Force-Drain he wouldn't be able to fight Krayt off or attack at all.
No, for Darth Krayt was draining him slowly and for majority of the fight indirectly. Luke's Force energy was slowly leaving him.

Kallig
No, he was actively draining both Luke and Abeloth. He was not being discriminatory at all, he was hitting both of them.



Those Dark Jedi like with Nihilus' Sith assassins and Sith troopers, were influenced and likely bolstered by his power on the Ravager which your own quote with Traya has torpedoing your claim with this, who are trying to stop Meetra and friends. Or are you going to claim that Tobin possessing his will makes him a high tier SW character?



You are being distinctly not only dishonest but outright lying at this point.

Luke is prepared to kill Krayt as soon as he's no longer burdened by restraining and concentrating against fighting Abeloth. As soon as Abeloth is removed as a factor temporarily, Krayt with his broken leg and realizing Luke can use the Force relents and stops trying to leech the Force from Luke whose resisting it and can generate powerful attacks still.

So let's recap again since you seem to have an elementary issue with this:

- Luke is physically restraining Abeloth
- Krayt is actively force-draining both Luke and Abeloth at the same time
- Luke while still holding down Abeloth breaks one of Krayt's legs and drops him to the ground and shows resistance to said Force-Drain
- Abeloth is able to temporarily retreat and escape both Krayt's Force-Drain and Luke hold
- As soon as Luke is free to properly defend himself and attack Krayt, Krayt relents on the Force-Drain against Luke and focuses on Abeloth as he realizes Luke is prepared to kill him with a Force-Blast
- Nothing in the narrative states Krayt saped Luke of his strength after the initial reaction to being Force-Drained

Try again buddy.

The Merchant
You know, if we use physics then Palpatine is a Universe buster~ To make a Wormhole that's 1 millionth the size of a proton requires the 1 hour of the power generation from 10 billion Stars. To make one the size of a Starship that's as big as the Enterprise-D requires more energy than the entire Universe.

DarthAnt66

Emperordmb

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Kallig
Luke is prepared to kill him with a Force-Blast
- Nothing in the narrative states Krayt saped Luke of his strength after the initial reaction to being Force-Drained

Nah, after the battle it describes Luke slowly regaining his lost energy: "Luke felt his energy and his determination come rushing back."

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well... that's interesting...
LMFAO, god damn it. first Tahiri and now this?!!

Kallig
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
*snip*



Bolded clearly shows Krayt was hitting both Abeloth and Luke with the Force-Drain at the same time. I'm tired of repeating and going in circles with someone as obstinate as you.

But I suggest you work on your reading comprehension and not try the awful freshmen tier ad hominems. You have no idea what your talking about.

DarthAnt66
I never denied he was hitting both, but rather I denied he was hitting them evenly.

Originally posted by Kallig
You have no idea what your talking about.
Totally. smokin'

Kallig
So you suddenly you strawman from claiming in the last 5 or 6 posts that he was solely targeting Luke, to "he was hitting them unevenly" now?

How cute.

And I'm done with you.

DarthAnt66
:facepalm: That's not even what I... eh whatever, screw it. Okay bud. Enjoy your denial.
I guess the narrator was lying when they said Luke was being affected or something. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Kallig
>emoticons
>actions

Its not impressing anyone here, dude. I'll remind you were called out for lying about the fight and you haven't lived up to that shame once.

Pathetic.

DarthAnt66
I don't think anyone considered your "calling out" credible. What a disgrace. thumb up

DarthAnt66
inb4 S66 says it is credible.

Kallig
Sure sure.

Whatever you say, buddy.

DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZiL_dpWKHo&t=2m01s

Zampanů
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? Lol

The energy Sidious summons to rip holes in the fabric of space belong to Sidious. It's a display of sheer raw power which he has at his disposal just as the endnotes indicate (can't quote verbatim; don't have access to the source ATM).
Yes. The power that Sidious uses to tear open the wormholes belongs to Sidious (up to debates about how using Byss as a power source qualifies as "his own power"wink. What I would dispute is the idea that it is a "display of sheer raw power" when in fact we are told that Sidious can initiate the technique "through a simple act of will." In Jedi vs. Sith, Sidious describes the storms as "vastly destructive and virtually unstopable." However, he writes that he must admit he is "not yet able to completely control the phenomenon." This suggests to me that the generation of the storm does not involve a store of energy from which the destructive phenomena will be powered. Rather, the storm itself causes the damage, and Palpatine merely sets it in motion. This is the difference between dismantling a town yourself and starting an avalanche by shouting in the mountains. The avalanche has a lot of power, but you don't have that power, despite being responsible for the damage.



Again (from the same page, even) you seem to be mistaken. The technique is accomplished "with a thought" and relies upon "mediating anger and will with clarity and precision." That doesn't match the description of other, more powerful draws upon the Force that we see from Anakin, Luke, or even Dooku and Vader.


Feel Free.



I would dispute the idea that any of the characters Sidious has unambiguously defeated exceed (rather than match) Traya in power. The "fodderized" B-team certainly does not, for example.

SIDIOUS 66

Zampanů
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Both Maul and Savage do not fall far below Traya in power, and Dooku most likely exceeds her. Both have overpowered multiple force users at once, but Dooku's opponents have better feats and hype. Sidious easily subdued Maul and Savage at the same time despite their efforts to repulse his hold on them. He's choked Dooku from half way across the galaxy. Traya wouldn't stand a chance against Sidious.
Color me dubious RE: Mauls. But I suppose it's not an unreasonable comparison to draw between Kreia and Dooku, although I'd probably have the resolution fall with Kreia at least as often as with Dooku. In a fight without ambush, I'd be willing to bet Kreia could fight her way to escape, if nothing else. This is an interesting question that I've never given serious thought before.


I believe you're arguing in good faith, but you're using the same equivocation that ChaosTheory did.

First and foremost, we do not have a reliable way to measure the way that Force strength (in the sense of midichlorian counts) is involved with the tearing of space-time. So I'm afraid that your assertion that {tearing space-time} is a feat of greater magnitude than {lifting the surface layer of a planet into orbit} is kind of circular / question begging. That is, how do you know how difficult tearing space-time using the Force is? After all, an artifact (an ancient Sith Staff) managed the same thing without a Force reserve of its own.

Secondly, regardless of the magnitude of effort involved in initializing the technique, the mechanism of damage seems to rely on being clever and efficient, as compared to powerful. Hyperspace wormholes appear to be highly destructive phenomena, no matter what caused them to exist. It is entirely consistent for Palpatine to initiate a wormhole and then rely on its natural properties to cause damage. Plo-Koon did a similar thing when he froze the creek. We wouldn't credit him with stopping all of those droids with his own power; instead he acted efficiently. Similarly, in Mass Effect the Warp biotic effect does much more damage than the Throw effect, but we don't credit Warp users with deliberate sub-atomic manipulation. The best they can do is introduce chaos at that subatomic level. Sidious seems to be in the same position with the wormholes.


A good example, but one with a critical disanalogy. Force Lightning is electric (or darkside?) current manifested into the world. The current itself is what causes damage to people, in direct proportion to the amperage/strength of the lightning. In contrast, Force Storm conjures a hyperspace wormhole which seems to be an inherently damaging phenomenon. The amount of damage it does can be limited by the control of the user, but seemingly not increased. There's not evidence that tearing really hard makes the wormhole more destructive. Additionally, we have narration in source after source about how Force Lightning relies on the rage and power of the generator. More powerful users consistently do more damage. By contrast, there's not evidence that a more powerful space-time tearingperson would result in a more destructive wormhole.




Of all people, Palpatine is in the best position to comment on the step by step process for his own technique. More to the point, he is being humble and low-balling his own prowess and mastery. That's hardly in the same category of statements as Yoda's "size matters not."

SIDIOUS 66

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Kallig
Both the Dark Empire handbook and the graphic novel itself depict that Palpatine creates and controls the Force Storms. He does not magically pull it out of his with a Sith ritual or use magic to create it, his power, his "rage" and anger, are even stated to be in the narrative exposition the power source behind the Force Storm.

Emperor Palpatine was very proud of his ability to create and control the hyperspace wormholes.

Its a feat of power as much of it is of fine control or precision. I would post the scan from the handbook but apparently I have a limit on images or links I can post as of late.
Force Storm manifests from expanding Force maelstrom energy and the latter itself is a very intensive development.

Every action is performed with a thought. I don't see the point in mentioning this word in particular.

As for the terms such as ritual and magic, these are just semantics.

Force-user makes a decision to perform an action:

1. With a gesture
2. With intense concentration (meditative form)

1 represents basic strategy to perform an action in limited form which is norm and it leaves room for multi-tasking in activities.

2 represents meditative or ritualistic strategy to perform an action in which the Force-user transforms himself into a conduit of great power for maximum effectiveness for a certain action; concentration is likely so intense that a Force-user may not be able to multi-task in this situation.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Kallig
Let me know when she force-drains entire worlds, disables the precognitive abilities of the entire Jedi Order, and surpass even with her mere presence alone the ambient energy to affect the weather system of entire worlds on a global scale.
Sidious did not disable the precognitive abilities of the entire order.

Sidious and Plagueis jointly disturbed the balance of the Force in favor of the dark side. This development clouded Jedi prophetic abilities.

I don't recall Sidious ever influencing the weather system of an entire world.

Originally posted by Kallig
Sidious did it to a planet of 20 billion. So color anyone else skeptical of the claim that even if Traya fired off a force-drain attack on Sidious, its not going to kill him.
Sidious performed Force Drain to siphon energy of individuals on a mass scale. In this manner, Sidious could afford to not be lethal to individuals since each individual was slowly drained in such a manner that each would not even feel the effects of the action.

Otherwise, Force Drain is known to weaken and eventually kill the targets.

Traya unleashed Force Drain on the Jedi Masters with lethal intent and she outright killed the Jedi Masters on short notice. The amount of energy expended in this action won't be much less then the mass draining feat performed by Sidious, if scale and effects are taken into account.

Force Drain is known to accelerate aging process, the faster it does so, the faster it kills. The more power behind it, the greater its effects manifest accordingly.

Originally posted by Kallig
Most people who know the technique know how to defend against it and ultimately, most of this board seems to invoke a no limits argument and abuse it for her or others as a catch-all victory strategy.
Yes, Force Drain can be countered by a variety of actions. Their are certain defensive techniques and even conditions such as immortality can facilitate defense against such powers.

S_W_LeGenD

Nephthys
I'll just remind everyone: The Jedi Path states that the Force Storm existed before Sidious and others have used it.

The_Tempest
Looks like I've missed several pages. mmm

Z., you seem very adamant to establish that Traya is a challenge for someone like Sidious. Are you suggesting that she is as or more powerful than the Emperor?

The_Tempest

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Z., you seem very adamant to establish that Traya is a challenge for someone like Sidious. Are you suggesting that she is as or more powerful than the Emperor?

What is up with you and being wildly off base in this topic? Zam said that he doesn't find a comparison between her and Dooku unreasonable and at most that she could successfully flee from Sidious. You're clearly deeply offended by the assertions made in this thread and it's affecting your comprehension. Calm down and actually read what people are saying.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
What is up with you and being wildly off base in this topic? Zam said that he doesn't find a comparison between her and Dooku unreasonable and at most that she could successfully flee from Sidious. You're clearly deeply offended by the assertions made in this thread and it's affecting your comprehension. Calm down and actually read what people are saying.

Oh Good Lord. I asked Zamp that question as to clarify any insinuations or implications I may have misread rather than brazenly accuse him of something he doesn't believe.

If you weren't so eager to mock me and Sidious, you'd have gathered that. I'm going to ask you again to please stop. It's disrespectful as hell.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sidious sucks dick.
---
ily

The_Tempest
sad

DarthAnt66
Nvm sorry, Sidious is da best.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Oh Good Lord. I asked Zamp that question as to clarify any insinuations or implications I may have misread rather than brazenly accuse him of something he doesn't believe.

If you weren't so eager to mock me and Sidious, you'd have gathered that. I'm going to ask you again to please stop. It's disrespectful as hell.

And I didn't claim you accused him of anything. I simply stated that you were way off base in your misreading of implications and that you have been similarly off base previously in the thread.

I don't see the mockery in saying that you're misreading something when even you admit that you did. Don't be so touchy.

The_Tempest
I said I may have misread the gist of his arguments. That's how implications and insinuations work. You can misread them. erm

I asked Zamp that question to ascertain just that.

And you're absolutely mocking me {you're even lying about what I've said} and you honestly need to stop.

DarthAnt66
*temp's trolling intensifies*

Revanchiste

Zampanů

psmith81992
National debate competitor? That's a thing people still do in their spare time?

Nephthys

ChaosTheory123

Nephthys
Maybe not. Zam just happens to have his facts straight and is very intelligent.

Zenwolf
Tbh I find Force Drain entirely overrated.

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