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Hand to hand, adult loki vs Benjy, who wins?

Ben literally kills him

Ben breaks him, Loki realizes he doesn't have enough heart.

That'd be fun to watch actually. Loki wouldn't go down easy.

Even if Loki was able to match Ben physically (and I personally think Ben has the physical advantage on Loki), Loki's heart is nothing compared to Bens...

Ben would be like Joe Frazier (get up after every knock down and power through Loki's worse) and Loki would be like Lennox Lewis (badazz when he's winning, but has a glass jaw; if you can hit him flush, its over)...

Thing wins 10/10 in pure hand to hand combat...

I can vividly see Thing (with both eyes swollen nearly shut and bleeding) going strong to Loki's body and making him cough up blood right before delivering the knockout punch...

Originally posted by Damborgson
That'd be fun to watch actually. Loki wouldn't go down easy.

Loki is actually stronger than people may give him credit. I think that this could go either way.

Okay no, Loki is physically stronger then most people would think I agree. But he's not anywhere near the scale of strength The Thing has. Loki only "doesn't go down easy" if Ben is holding back.

Originally posted by Stoic
Loki is actually stronger than people may give him credit. I think that this could go either way.

Loki is strong and durable, but he just does not have that "never say die" mind set that Ben has...

Ben had an excellent showing against Champion prior to Marvel jobbing him out like a cheap wh0re...

I imagine that Loki would not have done anywhere near as well as Ben against Classic Champ...

Okay wait exactly how strong do you feel Loki is physically? Spiderman level? Luke Cage level? Higher then that? I only ask because you seem to keep talking about how much heart Ben has, and sure Ben has a lot of heart. But Loki could have all the heart in the world and it wouldn't make much of a difference.

Originally posted by Surtur
Okay wait exactly how strong do you feel Loki is physically? Spiderman level? Luke Cage level? Higher then that? I only ask because you seem to keep talking about how much heart Ben has, and sure Ben has a lot of heart. But Loki could have all the heart in the world and it wouldn't make much of a difference.

I'd give him roughly class 90-100 range. He has given Thor trouble in the past, and Thor has walked all over the Abomination. Loki is simply never portrayed as the muscle guy because he has more to rely on than just brute strength.

Well, if Loki can parry a Mjolnir strike with his sword, that should count for something, right?

Loki is also a good deal more agile than Ben, so this IMO would offset any strength advantage if any that Ben would hold over him.Agility in most cases adds to the defense of a character. You can't hurt what you can't hit.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, if Loki can parry a Mjolnir strike with his sword, that should count for something, right?
No.

That sort of thing happens in comics all the time, regardless of str lv. Shatterstar v Thing, Daken v Skaar, Elektra vs Cl 10 Sil Samurai

Originally posted by Stoic
I'd give him roughly class 90-100 range. He has given Thor trouble in the past, and Thor has walked all over the Abomination. Loki is simply never portrayed as the muscle guy because he has more to rely on than just brute strength.

Eh? Class 90? That seems way way way out of Loki's league. When has Thor ever physically struggled against Loki? Thor does things like lift the Midgard Serpent, which was big enough wrap itself around the planet. What has Loki done on that scale? If he got into a physical tussle with Thor one time and didn't immediately die..that doesn't exactly mean he is anywhere near Thor in strength.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'd give him roughly class 90-100 range. He has given Thor trouble in the past, and Thor has walked all over the Abomination. Loki is simply never portrayed as the muscle guy because he has more to rely on than just brute strength.

Scans? I can't think of a single example I've seen for him strength or durability wise, and all I've got to go off of are Handbook entries and trading card ratings, that put him at Class 30.

Originally posted by Surtur
Eh? Class 90? That seems way way way out of Loki's league. When has Thor ever physically struggled against Loki? Thor does things like lift the Midgard Serpent, which was big enough wrap itself around the planet. What has Loki done on that scale? If he got into a physical tussle with Thor one time and didn't immediately die..that doesn't exactly mean he is anywhere near Thor in strength.

Why wouldn't it? if he were so much weaker than Thor, Thor would have immediately wrapped him around a pole doing 120 MPH. This didn't happen though. Loki actually held his own for a bit. This isn't something that someone far inferior to another would be able to do. I'm not talking about Loki dancing around and dodging the worst, but actually going head to head with him. Didn't Loki throttle Masterson Thor, and Bill?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Scans? I can't think of a single example I've seen for him strength or durability wise, and all I've got to go off of are Handbook entries and trading card ratings, that put him at Class 30.

Yep, personally I was going to maaaybe give him Class 40-50, but that is about it. Ben Grimm is Class 80 and the guy is strong enough to turn skyscrapers into weapons. There is no way Loki is above someone like that.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why wouldn't it? if he were so much weaker than Thor, Thor would have immediately wrapped him around a pole doing 120 MPH. This didn't happen though. Loki actually held his own for a bit. This isn't something that someone far inferior to another would be able to do. I'm not talking about Loki dancing around and dodging the worst, but actually going head to head with him. Didn't Loki throttle Masterson Thor, and Bill?

Thor didn't immediately wrap him around a pole because it was a comic with bad writing, not because Loki is suddenly a class 90 power house above the likes of Ben Grimm, Colossus, etc.

Originally posted by Surtur
Yep, personally I was going to maaaybe give him Class 40-50, but that is about it. Ben Grimm is Class 80 and the guy is strong enough to turn skyscrapers into weapons. There is no way Loki is above someone like that.



Thor didn't immediately wrap him around a pole because it was a comic with bad writing, not because Loki is suddenly a class 90 power house above the likes of Ben Grimm, Colossus, etc.

Ben is a class 100. Thanos is superior to Thor, but we don't see him picking up the weight of a world. These are characters that rely on more than brute strength, but that does not automatically mean that they are weak. I don't know the context of the throttling that Loki gave Beta Ray Bill, and the Eric Masterson version of Thor, but I googled Thor vs Loki, and saw a scan of Loki beating the mess out of the both of them. In other words he could have been amped. Also this is all about in the comics, which gives us perspective on just how strong these fictional dudes are.

Originally posted by Stoic
Ben is a class 100. Thanos is superior to Thor, but we don't see him picking up the weight of a world. These are characters that rely on more than brute strength, but that does not automatically mean that they are weak. I don't know the context of the throttling that Loki gave Beta Ray Bill, and the Eric Masterson version of Thor, but I googled Thor vs Loki, and saw a scan of Loki beating the mess out of the both of them. In other words he could have been amped. Also this is all about in the comics, which gives up perspective on just how strong these fictional dudes are.

The problem is, Loki, in comics, isn't really portrayed as being strong on that level. It's just bad writing, it doesn't mean he's suddenly a class 90 like Captain Britain. Loki has never been like that, or anywhere close.

Let me put it to you another way: If Thor and Loki decided to get into an arm wrestling contest? Loki would lose horribly.

Agreed.
I understand giving both characters their due, but lets not exaggerate Loki here.

Lol. The way Loki was no-selling Spidey, one would think he has greater durability than Ben.

Loki's pretty damn strong, even if Masterson isn't Thor.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Stats/LokiStrength03441.jpg

Originally posted by Surtur
The problem is, Loki, in comics, isn't really portrayed as being strong on that level. It's just bad writing, it doesn't mean he's suddenly a class 90 like Captain Britain. Loki has never been like that, or anywhere close.

Let me put it to you another way: If Thor and Loki decided to get into an arm wrestling contest? Loki would lose horribly.

Yes you are correct Loki would lose horribly, but so would Ben, and Captain Britain. Let's not forget that Loki is a great deal more agile than Ben as well. This has to count for something. Strength is not the end all and be all. Look at how many times the more agile character has come out on top of the slower but stronger brute. Comics, and their plots are the reason that Loki didn't win 90% of his battles with Thor. I mean he always preps for his battles, and there were a number of ways that he could have killed Thor in the past, but plot dictated that such was never going to happen. All the same Loki has enough strength to hurt Ben, and has the agility to stay out of range, not to mention the idea that he is ancient, and isn't a stranger to combat, as well as being vastly smarter than Ben.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Loki's pretty damn strong, even if Masterson isn't Thor.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Stats/LokiStrength03441.jpg

That's the scan that i was talking about. Beta Ray Bill is also in that same comic, and Loki gives him the business as well.

Why do pepple keep thinking Ben's not agile? Part of his power set is he kept his human (ace pilot/veteran boxer and h2h) speed agility and reflexes....

Originally posted by riv6672
Why do pepple keep thinking Ben's not agile? Part of his power set is he kept his human (ace pilot/veteran boxer and h2h) speed agility and reflexes....

Yes but there are different levels of agility. Loki is fast as heck. You saw the scan of him slap slap slapping the shit out of Masterson Thor didn't you? it takes a great deal of strength to do that. Masterson hammered Gladiator into KO-ville.

I saw strength. I didnt see him slapping agiley.
Either way, Ben wins this. Whether its easily, hard, or somewhere in between, is academic.

Originally posted by riv6672
I saw strength. I didnt see him slapping agiley.
Either way, Ben wins this. Whether its easily, hard, or somewhere in between, is academic.

I'd just like to point out that Gladiator beat the crap out of Ben without contest. The guy that was slapped into a kayoed state put gladiator out for the count, and Loki beat the crap out of him, and Beta Ray Bill. I don't see Ben doing that. The Things very physique goes against him being overly agile like Loki is. Loki has the strength, and physique to run circles around Ben, not to mention that his physiology makes him tire far slower than a mortal like the Thing. Loki could literally pick his shots and make them count. He wins this by a landslide.

I, and a lot of others disagree.
Good fight in any event. Not one you see here a lot.

Originally posted by riv6672
I, and a lot of others disagree.
Good fight in any event. Not one you see here a lot.

At first I thought Ben would take it as well, but then I had to think long and hard about it. The reason that you don't see Loki pressing sky scrapers is because it's not in his character. The same can be said of Thanos, and Ultron, but this does not mean that they aren't crazy strong. Loki is a power house.

Loki is more stronger than people give him credit for but meh...i give it to Ben.

Originally posted by TheHulk
Loki is more stronger than people give him credit for but meh...i give it to Ben.

Based on what? Loki has greater endurance, is faster, and has shown that he was strong enough to slap Masterson Thor out with 4 hits, and then take it to Beta Ray Bill. I don't see how Ben wins this?

Don't forget about his durability.

Parker hurt amped Thing in Fear Itself, but couldn't do shit to regular Loki.

Originally posted by Stoic
Based on what? Loki has greater endurance, is faster, and has shown that he was strong enough to slap Masterson Thor out with 4 hits, and then take it to Beta Ray Bill. I don't see how Ben wins this? I'm going to be the very idiot odd one here and ignore those fts.

edit: Okay you know what? that was a very bad way of putting it. I guess what i meant to say was that i'm in doubts of those combat fts.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Don't forget about his durability.

Parker hurt amped Thing in Fear Itself, but couldn't do shit to regular Loki.

Not to mention that Thor nearly one shot killed that same amped Thing.

EVERYbody knows that the fear itself arc was complete crap... Angir demolishes RULK but gets a hole blown through his chest by Mjolnir returning back to THOR.

Strength wise Loki is at best CL50 while Ben is mid CL100... Loki is faster and more agile than Ben. But, he isn't faster nor more agile than Spiderman.

H2H this is pure spite. Ben wins 11/10

Thors hammer has resisted the grasp of Zeus. Putting Angrir in front of it isn't going to stop it either.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Loki's pretty damn strong, even if Masterson isn't Thor.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Stats/LokiStrength03441.jpg

There context to that? Taking it at face value, I'd put Loki well above Masterson-Thor going by that.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'd just like to point out that Gladiator beat the crap out of Ben without contest. The guy that was slapped into a kayoed state put gladiator out for the count, and Loki beat the crap out of him, and Beta Ray Bill. I don't see Ben doing that. The Things very physique goes against him being overly agile like Loki is. Loki has the strength, and physique to run circles around Ben, not to mention that his physiology makes him tire far slower than a mortal like the Thing. Loki could literally pick his shots and make them count. He wins this by a landslide.

IIRC, Masterson-Thor was losing the fight until Living Lightning became involved. I know the owning came AFTER Living Lightning.

Originally posted by TheHulk
I'm going to be the very idiot odd one here and ignore those fts.

edit: Okay you know what? that was a very bad way of putting it. I guess what i meant to say was that i'm in doubts of those combat fts.

The feat happened. ignore it if you want, but that does not mean that it did not happen. It's not idiotic, it's denial that has gripped you.


Originally posted by Tony Stark
EVERYbody knows that the fear itself arc was complete crap... Angir demolishes RULK but gets a hole blown through his chest by Mjolnir returning back to THOR.

Strength wise Loki is at best CL50 while Ben is mid CL100... Loki is faster and more agile than Ben. But, he isn't faster nor more agile than Spiderman.

H2H this is pure spite. Ben wins 11/10

A class 50 isn't doing that to Masterson Thor. Stay away from those handbook strength entries, because Spiderman alone has done things that have surpassed the 50 ton range.


Originally posted by Delta1938
There context to that? Taking it at face value, I'd put Loki well above Masterson-Thor going by that.



IIRC, Masterson-Thor was losing the fight until Living Lightning became involved. I know the owning came AFTER Living Lightning.

iirc the Thing was unable to even make Gladiator flinch with his best Sunday punch. This is something that should also be taken into consideration. Beta Ray Bill was busting planets, and even managed to scar Galactus when he appeared in the Storm Breaker mini. Loki was actually able to hurt him to the point of a KO.

The only context is that he was fighting several villains before that and was tired.

Under the same writer regular Thor WTFowned Loki in h2h.

And Masterson was every bit as strong as Thor. It's just an outlier for Loki. In the previous issue Skurge was owning both Dargo Ktor and Masterson at the same time and he is class 90 at best.

Originally posted by Stoic
The feat happened. ignore it if you want, but that does not mean that it did not happen. It's not idiotic, it's denial that has gripped you.




A class 50 isn't doing that to Masterson Thor. Stay away from those handbook strength entries, because Spiderman alone has done things that have surpassed the 50 ton range.




iirc the Thing was unable to even make Gladiator flinch with his best Sunday punch. This is something that should also be taken into consideration. Beta Ray Bill was busting planets, and even managed to scar Galactus when he appeared in the Storm Breaker mini. Loki was actually able to hurt him to the point of a KO.
Loki koed him with energy blasts.

I'm willing to change my mind on outcomes, but so far, not on this one.

Originally posted by Stoic
The feat happened. ignore it if you want, but that does not mean that it did not happen. It's not idiotic, it's denial that has gripped you. Don't make denial sound bad just because i'm not gonna be suckered in to believe Loki is around a class 100....

Here's the deal.
Loki has the strength if an average Asgardian.
He likely has amped himself magically at times. In a no prep battle he would be at his average, he would lose to the Thing.

Originally posted by riv6672
Here's the deal.
Loki has the strength if an average Asgardian.
He likely has amped himself magically at times. In a no prep battle he would be at his average, he would lose to the Thing. Nothing to suggest that to be honest, but hey, it's a theory.

Originally posted by TheHulk
Nothing to suggest that to be honest, but hey, it's a theory.
I'm basing my opinion on way too many sites to list that put Loki's strength at average for an Asgardian, and suggest the amping as the reason he's been able to engage Thor when he knows he's going to need to (prep).
I'm also trying to be fair to both sides of the argument.
So, i can live with your not totally negative response.

Originally posted by Stoic
Yes you are correct Loki would lose horribly, but so would Ben, and Captain Britain. Let's not forget that Loki is a great deal more agile than Ben as well. This has to count for something. Strength is not the end all and be all. Look at how many times the more agile character has come out on top of the slower but stronger brute. Comics, and their plots are the reason that Loki didn't win 90% of his battles with Thor. I mean he always preps for his battles, and there were a number of ways that he could have killed Thor in the past, but plot dictated that such was never going to happen. All the same Loki has enough strength to hurt Ben, and has the agility to stay out of range, not to mention the idea that he is ancient, and isn't a stranger to combat, as well as being vastly smarter than Ben.

Strength isn't the be all end all, you are right. But in this case, the strength of The Thing seals the deal here. Loki's agility doesn't give him enough of an edge to compensate for the massive physical difference between them. In this case, Loki is fighting the thing. If it was a question of avoiding some punches and fleeing using his agility, that might be one thing. But since Loki has to fight Ben here..well his agility is not enough to allow him to accomplish that. In other words, Loki needs his magic to stand any kind of real chance here. Though then of course it's a stomp in the other direction.

Though I will say I disagree with The Thing being a Class 100, but you don't need to be class 100 to have a vast strength advantage over Loki.

Originally posted by Stoic
The feat happened. ignore it if you want, but that does not mean that it did not happen. It's not idiotic, it's denial that has gripped you.




A class 50 isn't doing that to Masterson Thor. Stay away from those handbook strength entries, because Spiderman alone has done things that have surpassed the 50 ton range.




iirc the Thing was unable to even make Gladiator flinch with his best Sunday punch. This is something that should also be taken into consideration. Beta Ray Bill was busting planets, and even managed to scar Galactus when he appeared in the Storm Breaker mini. Loki was actually able to hurt him to the point of a KO.


http://marvel.wikia.com/Loki_Laufeyson_%28Earth-616%29

Originally posted by Surtur
Strength isn't the be all end all, you are right. But in this case, the strength of The Thing seals the deal here. Loki's agility doesn't give him enough of an edge to compensate for the massive physical difference between them. In this case, Loki is fighting the thing. If it was a question of avoiding some punches and fleeing using his agility, that might be one thing. But since Loki has to fight Ben here..well his agility is not enough to allow him to accomplish that.

Though I will say I disagree with The Thing being a Class 100, but you don't need to be class 100 to have a vast strength advantage over Loki.


Ben was a confirmed CL100 in the Avengers Initiative

Originally posted by Tony Stark
Ben was a confirmed CL100 in the Avengers Initiative

What do you mean by "confirmed"? Has he suddenly jumped to the level of people like Superman and Thor?

Originally posted by Surtur
What do you mean by "confirmed"? Has he suddenly jumped to the level of people like Superman and Thor?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=10089845

Okay so that is just someone saying Thing can fight Class 100's. The thing of it is..the Marvel class system is wonky. The higher the class is the less literal the number becomes. A class 5 can truly just lift 5 tons. A class 100 can lift millions upon millions of tons. So now with that in mind, you have to ask yourself..well okay, if someone like Superman or Thor would be a Class 100, what tier would Thing be? He can lift more then 100 tons sure, but he is not on the level of Superman, Thor, etc. Thus, you peg thing at around Class 80ish.

Mad respect for Loki in all things, but he loses here.

Originally posted by Surtur
Okay so that is just someone saying Thing can fight Class 100's. The thing of it is..the Marvel class system is wonky. The higher the class is the less literal the number becomes. A class 5 can truly just lift 5 tons. A class 100 can lift millions upon millions of tons. So now with that in mind, you have to ask yourself..well okay, if someone like Superman or Thor would be a Class 100, what tier would Thing be? He can lift more then 100 tons sure, but he is not on the level of Superman, Thor, etc. Thus, you peg thing at around Class 80ish.


If they're only looking to teach them just the "tactics" to use against a CL100 opponent... And not trying to show them what it "feels" like to go up against a CL100 opponent... Why not use someone in their own weight class (CL1-CL20) that's fought CL100's instead of a complete "BRICK" (Pun not really...really intended, kind of though) that is nothing like any of the trainees and who out muscles them all by (per your version of Ben) 60-80+ tons.
Sorry it doesn't make any sense to me... How Ben would deal with CL100 character is completely different than how a CL20 would have to handle one... Am I wrong...?

A CL20 isn't going to go toe to toe with a CL100 which is how Ben would do it... And does do it.

Why not bring in someone like Beast, Zemo, Ms. Marvel, Bishop, Samson...Etc.

Just to name a few that are all 60-80+ tons closer (With your version of Ben) in strength to these trainees than Ben is and they all would have to try and deal with a CL100 threat in manners much closer to the trainees needed manners of doing so... Than to go toe to toe like Ben does.

If you look at the page carefully Ben says "Anytime rookies" "Show me whatcha got". They all rush Ben and he lets them attack him and he let's them do their thing and then he tosses them around a bit... Vance asks Ben if he was "having fun"? Ben says "You kiddin' Vance? This's just like our old days in the Unlimited Class Wrestlin' Federation".

Vance thanks Ben for "going easy on them". And calls it a day.

Clearly showing that Ben was there to allow the trainees to latch on to a CL100 threat and see what it felt like to do so.

I truly think to look at it in any other way is as Mr. Spock would say "illogical".

Hence Ben is CL100.

That's a load of BS. Thing has never been a class 100.

I've always considered him class 85.
His heart and skill is what lets him hang woth class 100s.

Loki's not even class 85, doesnt have the heart or skill when it comes to h2h, BTW.

Originally posted by Surtur
Okay so that is just someone saying Thing can fight Class 100's. The thing of it is..the Marvel class system is wonky. The higher the class is the less literal the number becomes. A class 5 can truly just lift 5 tons. A class 100 can lift millions upon millions of tons. So now with that in mind, you have to ask yourself..well okay, if someone like Superman or Thor would be a Class 100, what tier would Thing be? He can lift more then 100 tons sure, but he is not on the level of Superman, Thor, etc. Thus, you peg thing at around Class 80ish. That's not how that works at all.
The class system was based on them lifting those tons above their heads from before it really mattered. It's not a power scale. It's a literal measurement of tonnage.
It just never got refined for the unfortunate age of internet debating purposes.

Your gripes have the same merit as complaining that Thor shouldn't be a class 100 because Galactus is a class 100.
It's not an accurate measurement except from the people who orbit that strength gap, and it never has been. It doesn't need to be adapted to fit into people like Thor. It needs to be forgotten altogether at that stage.

Although, if your issue is with it putting Thing on the same wavelength of Thor, then how is 80 any better when it stops becoming tons? What Thing is only 20 off of Thor? Thor's just a 5th stronger than him? Thor is 100, but he's 100 and something on the scale that isn't tons anymore? How does this make more sense? How accurate.

It's a bell curve scale where the part where the curve sharply inclines is at around 100 tons. It's to separate the incalculables from the majority of the "just super-humanly strong" guys that made up like 70% of the comic universe like Iron man level guys and down, then on the other side of him it goes all the way up to guys like Thor who can move mass that can't be calculated on any type of scale so he is in the same bracket as Iron man even though we all know they're really not according to that old ass system

Superman is considered class 100 in the wiki so now it will make sense for a select few

Very nice breakdown of class 100.

Thing Can be stronger, But Loki is more durable and is far faster. Stoic said well about speed. I think Loki wins because Speed.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
That's not how that works at all.
The class system was based on them lifting those tons above their heads from before it really mattered. It's not a power scale. It's a literal measurement of tonnage.
It just never got refined for the unfortunate age of internet debating purposes.

Your gripes have the same merit as complaining that Thor shouldn't be a class 100 because Galactus is a class 100.
It's not an accurate measurement except from the people who orbit that strength gap, and it never has been. It doesn't need to be adapted to fit into people like Thor. It needs to be forgotten altogether at that stage.

Although, if your issue is with it putting Thing on the same wavelength of Thor, then how is 80 any better when it stops becoming tons? What Thing is only 20 off of Thor? Thor's just a 5th stronger than him? Thor is 100, but he's 100 and something on the scale that isn't tons anymore? How does this make more sense? How accurate.

That's not how it works for Marvel, because Marvel doesn't follow logic. Around most debate boards? The class 100 system works just like I said. No, Thing ain't a Class 100, not if Superman and Thor also are.

It's irrelevant to this topic though and technically there really isn't a right or wrong answer. Thing is still far above Loki physically.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Thing Can be stronger, But Loki is more durable and is far faster. Stoic said well about speed. I think Loki wins because Speed.

This makes no sense. The strength gap is too bag for this to matter. People are acting as if Loki is the Flash. Seriously, what is it with people and Loki? First people try to say he compares physically to Thor, now the guy is some massive speedster? I'm not getting it. What do you feel his speed allows him to accomplish? Is Loki punching Ben 1,000 times before he blinks? How much force do you feel Loki on average can hit with?

Originally posted by Surtur
That's not how it works for Marvel, because Marvel doesn't follow logic. Around most debate boards? The class 100 system works just like I said. No, Thing ain't a Class 100, not if Superman and Thor also are.

It's irrelevant to this topic though and technically there really isn't a right or wrong answer. Thing is still far above Loki physically.



This makes no sense. The strength gap is too bag for this to matter. People are acting as if Loki is the Flash. Seriously, what is it with people and Loki? First people try to say he compares physically to Thor, now the guy is some massive speedster? I'm not getting it. What do you feel his speed allows him to accomplish? Is Loki punching Ben 1,000 times before he blinks? How much force do you feel Loki on average can hit with? DC doesn't even have an official class 100 system though because it doesn't give a shit about it. It's a Marvel term. Just like herald is. The class 100 was adopted by shit like Marvel's old cards and the like. Where it's exactly like I said. This is pretty much the source of it
http://listia.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/7eabde6eb1ad2ac9835e/medium.png?1410097130

Any use of it is a severe fan manipulation that makes entirely no sense for anything about Thing level on forums. Also notice Thor being above the class 50-100 range in the source.

There's no logical way to use it when you compare Thing and Superman, and the sharp incline towards the top isn't very logical either. You might as well just put Thing at a 1 and Superman at 100 if you can't adequately explain how much it rises up when you hit the top.

And using class 100 using it to describe tons and acknowledging someone could lift that, but still putting them at class 80 makes no sense at all. Just because Superman exists that doesn't mean the description of it should bend around him.

Also Thor and Superman aren't a class 100 if Eternity is. What a great rating system to use for characters on that level.

lol at Marvel not following logic yet defending this as a legitimate scale based on some fan abortion of it.

Also I agree it's irrelevant. Just like Superman is here. For whatever reason he was mentioned in the first place. It doesn't matter if you're going to persist to use it though.

This makes no sense. The strength gap is too bag for this to matter. People are acting as if Loki is the Flash. Seriously, what is it with people and Loki? First people try to say he compares physically to Thor, now the guy is some massive speedster? I'm not getting it. What do you feel his speed allows him to accomplish? Is Loki punching Ben 1,000 times before he blinks? How much force do you feel Loki on average can hit with?

First: i dont think the strengh gap is big.

Second: Being a bit less faster and more durable is enough to win a fight (also being far smarter). Loki dodged a Mjolnir throw more than one time. You need a decent speed to do that.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
DC doesn't even have an official class 100 system though because it doesn't give a shit about it. It's a Marvel term. Just like herald is. The class 100 was adopted by shit like Marvel's old cards and the like. Where it's exactly like I said. This is pretty much the source of it
http://listia.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/7eabde6eb1ad2ac9835e/medium.png?1410097130

Any use of it is a severe fan manipulation that makes entirely no sense for anything about Thing level on forums. Also notice Thor being above the class 50-100 range in the source.

There's no logical way to use it when you compare Thing and Superman, and the sharp incline towards the top isn't very logical either. You might as well just put Thing at a 1 and Superman at 100 if you can't adequately explain how much it rises up when you hit the top.

And using class 100 using it to describe tons and acknowledging someone could lift that, but still putting them at class 80 makes no sense at all. Just because Superman exists that doesn't mean the description of it should bend around him.

Also Thor and Superman aren't a class 100 if Eternity is. What a great rating system to use for characters on that level.

lol at Marvel not following logic yet defending this as a legitimate scale based on some fan abortion of it.

Also I agree it's irrelevant. Just like Superman is here. For whatever reason he was mentioned in the first place. It doesn't matter if you're going to persist to use it though.

Christ dude, I never said anything was legitimate. I was just going off the way I see the term used, I've seen it applied to all characters, not just Marvel ones. When I talk about the thing not being a class 100, I'm essentially saying doing it that way is better then nothing if you are going to bother to use the term at all.

Yes, you pointing out Superman and Thor aren't Class 100's if Eternity is does show the flaw. Thing is, cosmics like that, it doesn't matter much though. When you get down to non cosmics I think it's different. It's not perfect, nobody claimed it was. It just seems very odd to call Thing a Class 100. As for why Superman was mentioned, it's quite simple: he's a character most people know and thus easy to use as a benchmark, it's nothing more then that.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
First: i dont think the strengh gap is big.

Second: Being a bit less faster and more durable is enough to win a fight (also being far smarter). Loki dodged a Mjolnir throw more than one time. You need a decent speed to do that.

The strength gap is that big though. Please show me Loki handling objects the size The Thing has, with the same level of consistency. "He fought Thor and and hit him" isn't a legit argument considering the feats Thor has done. So mentioning him is basically saying you feel Loki is just a Class 100 and just never decides to ever show it except when he fights Thor.

Being a bit less faster and more durable is enough to win if you have a way to harm your opponent. Loki does not, Thing has slugged it out with people a lot stronger, and Loki is going to go down before Thing does. Loki dodged a throw from Thors hammer. How fast do you feel this makes Loki? The hammer can technically travel at FTL speeds at its height. So, are you saying Loki reacts at FTL speeds?

If not, how fast is Loki? Can Loki speedblitz people? Is he Spiderman level? Faster?

^ Class 100 is from 100 tons up to incalculable.

Classically, Hulk can be all throughout that class: calm state (100 tons), Banner-Hulk braces mountain (150,000,000,000 tons) and then the crazy stuff that goes beyond still falls under class 100

Originally posted by Surtur
Christ dude, I never said anything was legitimate. I was just going off the way I see the term used, I've seen it applied to all characters, not just Marvel ones. When I talk about the thing not being a class 100, I'm essentially saying doing it that way is better then nothing if you are going to bother to use the term at all.

Yes, you pointing out Superman and Thor aren't Class 100's if Eternity is does show the flaw. Thing is, cosmics like that, it doesn't matter much though. When you get down to non cosmics I think it's different. It's not perfect, nobody claimed it was. It just seems very odd to call Thing a Class 100. As for why Superman was mentioned, it's quite simple: he's a character most people know and thus easy to use as a benchmark, it's nothing more then that. Right, and I'm just saying the term is useless used the right way or the incorrect way once you factor in the Thors or the Supermans. Even in the original, Thor was in the incalculable range above the class 100 system.

The term only works when it's applied to Thing level and below. Is all. Once it starts being applied to Superman and Thor, it loses all credibility. There's better ways to measure things. Hell even making up class 1000s and shit would provide a more reliable measurement.

Using that system the right way however would put Thing and Superman in the same class so...

Originally posted by psycho gundam
^ Class 100 is from 100 tons up to incalculable.

Classically, Hulk can be all throughout that class: calm state (100 tons), Banner-Hulk braces mountain (150,000,000,000 tons) and then the crazy stuff that goes beyond still falls under class 100

I know, but that is the Marvel way of doing the Class system. What I'm talking about is..a mutated version of that, which tries to make it a bit easier to peg a character. It's..eh, well, I can see it is going to be a thing and the Class system isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.

Suffice to say Thing, whatever class he is pegged at, is quite superior to Loki.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
Ben was a confirmed CL100 in the Avengers Initiative Wasn't he shown to be maxed out at 85 tons recently?

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Wasn't he shown to be maxed out at 85 tons recently? Without looking anything up, that was She Hulk. And Thing wanted to have a race to 100 tons iirc.
He was also teaching the toddlers how to deal with class 100s by fighting him.

And like none of his fights would even limit him to 85 tons anyway. Even if it was his max it would be irrelevant unless he were picking rubble off him.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'd give him roughly class 90-100 range. He has given Thor trouble in the past, and Thor has walked all over the Abomination. Loki is simply never portrayed as the muscle guy because he has more to rely on than just brute strength. Loki is around a class 40. If he ever gave Thor problems in the strength dept then it was simply a very low showing for Thor. But what comic are you referring to? Cause I remember Thor physically dominating Loki A LOT. Thor even one shotted him before.

Originally posted by Surtur
I know, but that is the Marvel way of doing the Class system. What I'm talking about is..a mutated version of that, which tries to make it a bit easier to peg a character. It's..eh, well, I can see it is going to be a thing and the Class system isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.

Suffice to say Thing, whatever class he is pegged at, is quite superior to Loki.

Why are you saying that Loki is so inferior to the Thing when you saw the scan of him slapping the Eric Masterson version of Thor out? Are you just ignoring that? I also said earlier that you should ignore the handbook entries for many of these characters, because Spiderman alone has lifted more than 50 tons. You are also basing this fight solely on strength when there are far more things that go into settling fights than pure strength. Speed and agility also play a part, as well as general combat ability. Loki is an experienced combatant. You also don't see Thanos walking around regularly lifting up weights that fall into planet weights either, but we know that he is stronger than Thor.

Loki is good, but let's stop focusing on those high feats (like slapping Eric) SO much.

I mean, it took Spider-Man, Spider Woman and Hawkeye to restrain Wolverine - doesn't make him Class 30 all of a sudden.

When did masterson beat gladiator?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
When did masterson beat gladiator?

Originally posted by Stoic
Why are you saying that Loki is so inferior to the Thing when you saw the scan of him slapping the Eric Masterson version of Thor out? Are you just ignoring that? I also said earlier that you should ignore the handbook entries for many of these characters, because Spiderman alone has lifted more than 50 tons. You are also basing this fight solely on strength when there are far more things that go into settling fights than pure strength. Speed and agility also play a part, as well as general combat ability. Loki is an experienced combatant. You also don't see Thanos walking around regularly lifting up weights that fall into planet weights either, but we know that he is stronger than Thor.

To be honest I am ignoring that, mostly because him slapping down Thor is nonsense.

Thanos has consistently shown to be on the level of Class 100's, Loki has not. If Loki was routinely presented as being on that high a level of strength that would be one thing, but that isn't the case, hence why I ignored the feat you mentioned.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why are you saying that Loki is so inferior to the Thing when you saw the scan of him slapping the Eric Masterson version of Thor out? Are you just ignoring that? I also said earlier that you should ignore the handbook entries for many of these characters, because Spiderman alone has lifted more than 50 tons. You are also basing this fight solely on strength when there are far more things that go into settling fights than pure strength. Speed and agility also play a part, as well as general combat ability. Loki is an experienced combatant. You also don't see Thanos walking around regularly lifting up weights that fall into planet weights either, but we know that he is stronger than Thor. characters strength fluctuates from comic to comic. Thanos is not stronger than Thor when Thor is operating at millions of tons or more.

lol

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder


Whole fight? I honestly can't remember him beating glads straight up

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Whole fight? I honestly can't remember him beating glads straight up
In the FF comic, where Gladiator was slowed down.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
lol It's the truth though. Thanos might be stronger than average Thor, but average Thor don't lift billions of tons or more.

I like the thing,but i am kind of shocked that so many people think Ben would win.Loki at least rivals him in the strength department,that along with his magic gives Loki the win.Also if you include B.F.R,Loki no problem.

It's a strictly physical fight.

Oh if Loki can`t use his magic,Ben wins!

Originally posted by krisblaze
In the FF comic, where Gladiator was slowed down. living lighting incident?

Originally posted by h1a8
It's the truth though. Thanos might be stronger than average Thor, but average Thor don't lift billions of tons or more. Prove any of this crap, please

By your logic Doomsday at his best barely makes class 100

Average Thor..is a solid Class 100, there is no doubt about it. Calling it "average' Thor though is weird to me. it's just Thor. You have had amped up versions of Thor who were strong enough to make Thanos bleed, but I don't see Thor at his normal powers doing that. Since that involved Warrior Madness and the power gem.

Though Thor is still comfortably in the Class 100 zone.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why are you saying that Loki is so inferior to the Thing when you saw the scan of him slapping the Eric Masterson version of Thor out? Are you just ignoring that? I also said earlier that you should ignore the handbook entries for many of these characters, because Spiderman alone has lifted more than 50 tons. You are also basing this fight solely on strength when there are far more things that go into settling fights than pure strength. Speed and agility also play a part, as well as general combat ability. Loki is an experienced combatant. You also don't see Thanos walking around regularly lifting up weights that fall into planet weights either, but we know that he is stronger than Thor.


So, Loki's strength is so vast that he slaps Masterson multiple times and he is barely moved? How many blocks would Masterson fly if Ben slapped him around multiple times?

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's a load of BS. Thing has never been a class 100.


Funny... I think that I'm going to take MARVEL's opinion of Ben's strength over yours.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
Funny... I think that I'm going to take MARVEL's opinion of Ben's strength over yours.
That's according to marvel, not me.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Prove any of this crap, please

By your logic Doomsday at his best barely makes class 100 the proof is comics. Characters simply don't operate at the same level in every comic. That's why we have both low and high showings as well as PIS. I really don't understand your confusion

Originally posted by h1a8
the proof is comics. Characters simply don't operate at the same level in every comic. That's why we have both low and high showings as well as PIS. I really don't understand your confusion Don't you use a ton of math to calculate characters strength level?

Originally posted by Tony Stark
Funny... I think that I'm going to take MARVEL's opinion of Ben's strength over yours.

This is a silly stance to take considering how wonky the Marvel database's,etc. are when giving people certain power levels.

What Marvel *thinks* a character is at is actually irrelevant. It's all about what a character has or has not done.

Originally posted by h1a8
Thanos is not stronger than Thor when Thor is operating at millions of tons or more.

Originally posted by h1a8
the proof is comics. Characters simply don't operate at the same level in every comic. That's why we have both low and high showings as well as PIS. I really don't understand your confusion

Oh, you mean like the time Thor was amped with the power gem and Thanos was still holding his own for awhile until he decided to end it?

Did he do so with his strength? Thanos was quite clear that Thor would kill everyone in the room if he got out of that block.

That said, I forbid you to even indirectly argue on Thor's behalf H1.

Come on dude Thor is the man ,but Thanos is clearly on another level.When it comes to strength or energy projection,or even durability.He beat the Annihilators very easy!

Originally posted by Tony Stark
So, Loki's strength is so vast that he slaps Masterson multiple times and he is barely moved? How many blocks would Masterson fly if Ben slapped him around multiple times?

He held Masterson by the neck with one hand, and slap slap slapped the shit out of him until he was KO'd. Why would he fly through these walls under those circumstances? You should go back and look at the scan. Ben would never slap Masterson Thor around though, Masterson Thor at full power would slap Ben around. Like I said, go back and look at the scan.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Did he do so with his strength? Thanos was quite clear that Thor would kill everyone in the room if he got out of that block.


This is true. They weren't sitting there lifting weights to see who was stronger as H1 would remind everybody of, but still pretty impressive showing. More durability I suppose, but still. Thanos is just on another level and to argue otherwise is silly.

Originally posted by Stoic
He held Masterson by the neck with one hand, and slap slap slapped the shit out of him until he was KO'd. Why would he fly through these walls under those circumstances? You should go back and look at the scan. Ben would never slap Masterson Thor around though, Masterson Thor at full power would slap Ben around. Like I said, go back and look at the scan.

I don't have any beef in this fight and don't really care, but that should have never of happened. That's piss poor writing. Masterson was a clutz, but he still had the proportionate strength of Thor and that strength is greater then Loki's anytime and everytime. Has Thor ever gotten the same treatment from Loki?

Originally posted by tkitna
I don't have any beef in this fight and don't really care, but that should have never of happened. That's piss poor writing. Masterson was a clutz, but he still had the proportionate strength of Thor and that strength is greater then Loki's anytime and everytime. Has Thor ever gotten the same treatment from Loki?

Not that I can recall, but Loki has been able to stand up to Thor even if it was briefly. I don't really much care for this subject either, but Loki has shown that he is/was a physically strong character. It's his personality that makes him seem wimpy because he's not normally portrayed as the muscle. This however does not mean that he is weak. All the same, he has far greater endurance than a mortal like the Thing who gets tired after 30 minutes. Loki can fight or run for days without the lactic acid building up in his muscles to impair his performance.

The main problem with many of these versus threads, is that people only look at who is stronger, and they tend to forget that the characters have other things going for them. Agility, speed, combat experience, intelligence, endurance, durability... etc. Loki is actually superior to the Thing is a few of those categories.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's according to marvel, not me.


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=10089845

Originally posted by Surtur
This is a silly stance to take considering how wonky the Marvel database's,etc. are when giving people certain power levels.

What Marvel *thinks* a character is at is actually irrelevant. It's all about what a character has or has not done.




You think that it's silly to take MARVELS outlook on THEIR character than abhilegend's...?

Originally posted by Tony Stark
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=10089845
He trained them to fight class 100 characters like he does. It doesn't makes him class 100.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He trained them to fight class 100 characters like he does. It doesn't makes him class 100.



Riiiiiiiight... Riiiiiiiight

Glad it's settled then.

Originally posted by Tony Stark


You think that it's silly to take MARVELS outlook on THEIR character than abhilegend's...?



Um, when Marvel has shown they don't know what the f*ck they are talking about when it comes to whatever powers and limits they give characters in their handbooks and whatever else? Yeah, I don't trust Marvel. I go by what the character has done, not by what Marvel says. Marvel is the same company that had Black Panther putting Silver Surfer in an armbar. You trust THAT?

Sort of like when Joss Whedon made a comment that Buffy the Vampire Slayer had Spider-Man levels of strength? Yeah, I said a big old "Nope" to that as well, because she hadn't done a damn thing to support that.

It's not uncommon for the people behind the comics to not know what the f*ck they are talking about. When Flash evacuated a city of half a million people in less then a second, carrying only 2-3 people at a time..do you know how fast DC said he was going? Yeah, they said he was going at the speed of light. Now, anyone with half a brain could see such a feat is massively massively faster then light. So now we do..what? Just say the feat is only lightspeed, despite what is actually on the panel showing us that is a vast understatement?

Originally posted by Surtur
Um, when Marvel has shown they don't know what the f*ck they are talking about when it comes to whatever powers and limits they give characters in their handbooks and whatever else? Yeah, I don't trust Marvel. I go by what the character has done, not by what Marvel says.

Sort of like when Joss Whedon made a comment that Buffy the Vampire Slayer had Spider-Man levels of strength? Yeah, I said a big old "Nope" to that as well, because she hadn't done a damn thing to support that.

It's not uncommon for the people behind the comics to not know what the f*ck they are talking about. When Flash evacuated a city of half a million people in less then a second, carrying only 2-3 people at a time..do you know how fast DC said he was going? Yeah, they said he was going at the speed of light. Now, anyone with half a brain could see such a feat is massively massively faster then light. So now we do..what? Just say the feat is only lightspeed, despite what is actually on the panel telling us the opposite?

I have a way of reconciling both statements, but people don't like it

Here it is.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He trained them to fight class 100 characters like he does. It doesn't makes him class 100. That's how see it as well, but I can see it the other way also.

Originally posted by tkitna
I don't have any beef in this fight and don't really care, but that should have never of happened. That's piss poor writing. Masterson was a clutz, but he still had the proportionate strength of Thor and that strength is greater then Loki's anytime and everytime. Has Thor ever gotten the same treatment from Loki?


Ms. Marvel overpowered Loki.. E'nuff said

When did Carol ever overpowered Loki?

Originally posted by abhilegend
When did Carol ever overpowered Loki?


Ms. Marvel #12 (2014)

You mean Kamala Khan overpowering teen Loki?

I said Ms. Marvel didn't I? Kamala Khan was Ms. Marvel when she overpowered Loki right?

You need to admit when your wrong Loki is CL50 at the very best. Ben is more than twice as strong.

I accept your apology...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I have a way of reconciling both statements, but people don't like it

Here it is. Flash utilizing special relativity already reconciles both statements, if you feel the statements need to be reconciled.

Originally posted by Tony Stark
I said Ms. Marvel didn't I? Kamala Khan was Ms. Marvel when she overpowered Loki right?

You need to admit when your wrong Loki is CL50 at the very best. Ben is more than twice as strong.

I accept your apology...

Originally posted by Existere
Flash utilizing special relativity already reconciles both statements, if you feel the statements need to be reconciled.

Some people need extra help.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's a load of BS. Thing has never been a class 100.
On a good day he should be able to bench a hundred tons. He almost did it in Fantastic Four v. 4 #2.

http://i.imgur.com/JgN9u05l.jpg

You just demonstrated how retarded Marvel is. The Thing has lifted objects that weigh far in excess of 100 tons. 100 tons is chump change. If there is a day where at best he is lifting 100 tons that is not a good day, but a very bad day.

Characters are regularly portrayed beyond their intended abilities to further the plot or story.

An example that comes to mind is Cassandra Cain dodging a sniper round mid-trajectory. This is clearly outside her capabilities since she doesn't have any superpowers.

The values that best represent the Thing, and superheroes in general, are the values given in the biographies, handbooks and comics; whereas the values estimated by fans tend to be inconsistent. The Thing is ranked a six out of seven in strength which translates to the 75 - 100 ton range, which correlates fairly well with the cutout above.