Top 20 Greatest sith lord (Dark Lord of the sith only.)

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Revanchiste
Put your list here....
Based on what did they acomplished in there live.

Trocity
Based on accomplishments could be fun, perhaps I'll compile a list of 10.

20 is a little much.

FreshestSlice
It'd pretty much just be the list in the thread right under this one, tbh.

Trocity
True, some will be the same. Someone like Caedus though, whom I think is a top 2, top 3 sith ever in terms of overall combat ability, didn't accomplish nearly as much or have as big an impact on the galaxy as other Sith who were "inferior" to him.

Guys who left knowledge behind like Nadd, guys who constructed unique artifacts or who impacted sith in the generations to come, like Sadow and Kun, guys like Krayt who actually ruled the galaxy for a time with a Sith Empire unseen since the Old Republic, etc.

FreshestSlice
True, but accomplishments of power are still accomplishments. I'm not saying it' be exactly the same, but it'd be pretty similar.

Trocity
Fair enough, I agree with that.

FreshestSlice
Anyway, yeah, 20's a bit much.

1. Sidious
2. Plagueis
4. Vitiate
5. Bane
6. Traya
7. Vader
8. Krayt
9. Tenebrous
10. Kun

Sinious
Revan as a sith should be up there imo.

Also the triumvirate. They almost caused the extinction of the jedi.

The_Tempest
Sidious, by leaps and bounds. Special mention to the likes of Dooku, Vader, and Plagueis for their contributions to his schemes.

Then Krayt.

Then Vitiate.

Bane somewhere up there as well.

Ragnos and Sadow too.

psmith81992
Why is Krayt #2? Why is he above Sidious? Why is Sidious leaps and bounds above anyone #2? These are all important questions that need clarification.

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Then Krayt.

Then Vitiate.



Krayt above Vitiate? Why exactly?

Vitiate's duration of rule by itself puts him above Krayt imo.

The_Tempest
Pretty straightforward: Sidious accomplished more Sithly goals than anyone and did it in a fraction of the time as someone like Vitiate. Krayt, likewise, just not to the same degree.

The length of Vitiate's rule is impressive but he achieved relatively little with it.

Sinious
Destroying the republic was never a priority for him though. More importantly, when he started intervening with the sith affairs, the sith were in ruin and with the loss of 8000 sith lords in Natemha, I can imagine what a weak society the sith were when Vitiate took over. And under his rule the sith stopped expending after maybe a few centuries since they didnt want to get exposed to the republic so its not like he achieved all that in 1300 years.

Besides, it was during his rule that Sith became an empire with a sophisticated ruling mechanism. The dark council, his own personal cultish organization, the imperial guard and most importantly an excellent sith intelligence.

Vitiate has also started the Mandalorian War and triggered the events that took place in KOTOR. He also achieved immortality and became such a big threat that the sith and the jedi united to fight against him. Personal achievements wise, I think he is above Krayt.

appletonia
Bane is #1. He played the biggest part in making the Sith the most powerful they would ever become, according to dark side prophecy and a variety of perspectives.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
Destroying the republic was never a priority for him though. More importantly, when he started intervening with the sith affairs, the sith were in ruin and with the loss of 8000 sith lords in Natemha, I can imagine what a weak society the sith were when Vitiate took over. And under his rule the sith stopped expending after maybe a few centuries since they didnt want to get exposed to the republic so its not like he achieved all that in 1300 years.

Besides, it was during his rule that Sith became an empire with a sophisticated ruling mechanism. The dark council, his own personal cultish organization, the imperial guard and most importantly an excellent sith intelligence.

Vitiate has also started the Mandalorian War and triggered the events that took place in KOTOR. He also achieved immortality and became such a big threat that the sith and the jedi united to fight against him. Personal achievements wise, I think he is above Krayt.

Vitiate is definitely impressive, which is why I put him in the top 3. But Krayt achieved similar accomplishments in a fraction of the time. Krayt orchestrated another Jedi purge, the conflict between the resurgent Empire and GA, and secured the throne. He also achieved a state of immortality and reshaped Sith society as Vitiate did.

Vitiate's definitely got an impressive cv, just not when compared to Krayt's when you factor time.

DarthAnt66
1. Darth Sidious
2. Darth Krayt
3. Darth Revan
4. Darth Bane
5. Sith Emperor

(In terms of accomplishments)

Nephthys
Revan above Vitiate and Bane.

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/write.ign.com/6390/2013/08/p4a_yukiko_laugh.gif

Revanchiste
I made a mistake Dark lord of sith in the top 10 only.. Sorry...

There is a lot of bunch of old sith lord that deserve a place in this top 20...

There is this sith lord who destroy the moon over Korriban the other who have creating a ritual to create zombie slaves armies....

There is Naga sadow who almost anihilate the republic.

Bane who is reponsible for Sidious Plagueis event etc...

Originally posted by Sinious
Revan as a sith should be up there imo.

Also the triumvirate. They almost caused the extinction of the jedi.

He almost kill the Jedi order before than Traya can ull a shit out of it....

Traya plan was to wait until Revan had finished.. Revanwant to send her an invitation. But she didn't Join his empire because she get betrayl and Sion Nihilus begin their plan earlier..

DarthAnt66
The destruction of the Mandalorians to where they never became a galactic threat again, establishing the basis for the Rule of Two, and being a central figure in five separate galactic wars puts him above Bane and Vitiate. thumb up
Bane merely destroyed an already dying Brotherhood of Darkness and created a Rule of Two based on the doctrine of Revan. Nothing Vitiate did actually impacted future eras. It began and ended with the Republic where it was.
Note that Luke Skywalker was the only one of the New Jedi Order who was even aware that Vitate's emprie ever existed besides a few others like probably Mara Jade and Kyle Katarn. He didn't impact the galaxy that much TBH.

Nephthys
The destruction of the Mando's was done before he was a Sith and is a point in Vitiate's favor moreso because he orchastrated the whole thing and it succeeded in splintering the Jedi, corrupting Revan and wrecking the Republic. His idea's on the RoT don't count because he didn't actually accomplish anything with regards to them. He never integrated those idea's into his empire. And he accomplished nothing noteworthy in those wars except constantly ****ing up, failing, fixing his own mistakes and getting his ass kicked.

And you know that Vitiate isn't widely known solely because he's relatively recent. It's not like people were raving about Revan post movies either.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
The destruction of the Mando's was done before he was a Sith and is a point in Vitiate's favor moreso because he orchastrated the whole thing and it succeeded in splintering the Jedi, corrupting Revan and wrecking the Republic.
All Vitiate did was influence the Mandalorians to begin the war. Revan was the mastermind behind it who slowly corrupted the Jedi around him, eradicated the Mandalorians, and cleaned-house on Malachor V.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His idea's on the RoT don't count because he didn't actually accomplish anything with regards to them. He never integrated those idea's into his empire.
What do you mean? Revan definitely integrated those ideas into his empire. He merely had one apprentice, and Malak and majority of the other Sith followed in said footsteps.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And he accomplished nothing noteworthy in those wars except constantly ****ing up, failing, fixing his own mistakes and getting his ass kicked.
Cute.

Mandalorian Wars: "The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from."
Jedi Civil War: Revan "brought the galaxy to his kness" in basically a year, and in that time forced the Republic to completely reform their military in the aftermath into a powerful force.
The Dark Wars: Revan's teachings, findings, and massacre on Malachor V directly led to the corruption of Darth Traya and Darth Nihilus respectively. The war's orgins can be credited to him.
Great Galactic War: Revan postponed the entire war for 308 years, saving countless generations. He then ended the war via manipulating the empire, saving the Galactic Republic in the process.
Galactic War: Revan took command of the Order of Revan and turned them into a fighting force that could rival both the Republic and the Empire. Only together could they hope to beat dark Revan.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And you know that Vitiate isn't widely known solely because he's relatively recent. It's not like people were raving about Revan post movies either.
Not really. BioWare managed to squeeze in Vitiate into the picture without effecting anything. Nothing was changed.

Stigma
Hmm, interesting topic. As for accomplishments, numero uno is Sidious. The next spots are Vitiate, Krayt, Bane, Revan, Ragnos, Plagueis (perhaps)...

psmith81992
It's kinda hard to gauge time when Vitiate took an almost extinct species, and put them on top again. Krayt utilized the existing Empire. Impressive but not that impressive.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
All Vitiate did was influence the Mandalorians to begin the war. Revan was the mastermind behind it who slowly corrupted the Jedi around him, eradicated the Mandalorians, and cleaned-house on Malachor V.

And then went and got turned into Vitiate bottom b*tch without him even having to stand up. Revan wasn't the mastermind behind the war, Vitiate was. Revan used the war to turn the Jedi to his side, but ultimately all of that simply played into Vitiate's hands and made Revan's failure all the larger.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What do you mean? Revan definitely integrated those ideas into his empire. He merely had one apprentice, and Malak and majority of the other Sith followed in said footsteps.

Not on a large scale. As we see on Korriban, the Sith were still trained in academies by many different Sith.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Cute.

Mandalorian Wars: "The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from."
Jedi Civil War: Revan "brought the galaxy to his kness" in basically a year, and in that time forced the Republic to completely reform their military in the aftermath into a powerful force.
The Dark Wars: Revan's teachings, findings, and massacre on Malachor V directly led to the corruption of Darth Traya and Darth Nihilus respectively. The war's orgins can be credited to him.
Great Galactic War: Revan postponed the entire war for 308 years, saving countless generations. He then ended the war via manipulating the empire, saving the Galactic Republic in the process.
Galactic War: Revan took command of the Order of Revan and turned them into a fighting force that could rival both the Republic and the Empire. Only together could they hope to beat dark Revan.

Wow! And none of it accomplished anything or makes up for Revan constantly failing. The Mandalorian Wars are a failure on Revan's part because he thought he could walk down the dark path and got utterly clowned when he met real darkness. He was corrupted and eventually turned by the Emperor to further his own plans. Revan's war on the Republic almost destroyed the thing he was originally trying to protect. It's also hard to ignore that he was brainwashed by Vitiate into doing all of it. It grants him a place in the big leagues for establishing a Sith Empire but it's not close to Vitiate, Bane, Krayt or Sidious' league. Revan's actions after Vitiate pwned his ass a second time also don't count because he wasn't a Sith at that point. And his actions during his zombie period only accomplished uniting the Empire and Republic and bringing Vitiate back to life! AKA the exact opposite of his goals.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not really. BioWare managed to squeeze in Vitiate into the picture without effecting anything. Nothing was changed.

Revan is only a Sith in the first place because of Vitiate. All of his accomplishments since then are merely extensions of Vitiate's own.

Stigma
Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan is only a Sith in the first place because of Vitiate. All of his accomplishments since then are merely extensions of Vitiate's own.
Damn, that's a good point thumb up

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate is definitely impressive, which is why I put him in the top 3. But Krayt achieved similar accomplishments in a fraction of the time. Krayt orchestrated another Jedi purge, the conflict between the resurgent Empire and GA, and secured the throne. He also achieved a state of immortality and reshaped Sith society as Vitiate did.

Vitiate's definitely got an impressive cv, just not when compared to Krayt's when you factor time.

Krayt was given much better resources when he began his rule. Vitiate carried out an impossible task and at the end, he reached a level of existence far beyond Krayt.

But I guess yours is a respectable opinion as well.

Sinious
Originally posted by Nephthys


Revan is only a Sith in the first place because of Vitiate. All of his accomplishments since then are merely extensions of Vitiate's own.

Yeah, its kinda like a Sidious/Vader situation.

psmith81992
This would be true if Revan didn't break off and pursue his own agenda for his own ends.

Nephthys
True, but that doesn't detract that he was still a Sith Lord because of Vitiate's domination of him.

psmith81992
That line of reasoning is retarded. That's like saying that Sidious wouldn't have been a sith lord if it wasn't for Plagueis. And if we're going to go by that route, then the Exiles are the most powerful of the bunch since they created the sith order.

Sinious
There is a huge difference. Sidious was born evil and was meant to become what he became.

Revan was mindraped. And The Emperor sent him back to test and harm the republic which is what Revan ended up doing. As a sith, everything he did, indirectly served the Emperor.

Nephthys
thumb up

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
There is a huge difference. Sidious was born evil and was meant to become what he became.

Revan was mindraped. And The Emperor sent him back to test and harm the republic which is what Revan ended up doing. As a sith, everything he did, indirectly served the Emperor.
Revan and Malak stopped serving Vitiate pretty early on tbh. He only sent them to find the Star Forge. Testing the republic would be irrelevant.

psmith81992
If Plagueis hadn't intervened, Sidious would have continued his meaningless existence up until his death. So there is no difference.

FreshestSlice
I'm not sure who you're arguing this to. Revan isn't on my list, but Vitiate clearly is. Noticed I missed 3 too, I don't know, maybe Hord at 8 and everything from 8 moves down.

DarthAnt66
Note that when I put Revan on the list, I'm referring to him as depicted in KotOR 2, not Gnost Dural's retcon.

Revanchiste
Hum Revan is reponsible for the psychic bomb... Wich is reponsible for the death of the sith except one Bane and also Jerec events. And Bane is responsible for Plagueis sidious etc...
Wao jeeze... It is almost like Revan was reponsible for the first and second Jedi purge...

"Note that when I put Revan on the list, I'm referring to him as depicted in KotOR 2, not Gnost Dural's retcon."

As far I love Gnost Dural.... I have to admit I don't agree with his Jedish idea on what Darth Revan was....

And I also forget the rule of two XDXD.... God bless Revan.

Revanchiste
Originally posted by Nephthys
The destruction of the Mando's was done before he was a Sith and is a point in Vitiate's favor moreso because he orchastrated the whole thing and it succeeded in splintering the Jedi, corrupting Revan and wrecking the Republic. His idea's on the RoT don't count because he didn't actually accomplish anything with regards to them. He never integrated those idea's into his empire. And he accomplished nothing noteworthy in those wars except constantly ****ing up, failing, fixing his own mistakes and getting his ass kicked.

And you know that Vitiate isn't widely known solely because he's relatively recent. It's not like people were raving about Revan post movies either.

Technicaly he is a sith but he don't really claim to be a sith lord....
The website made an article about when Revan became truly a sith lord....

If you play KotOR 2 you will notice Than Revan select the ship, the people allowed to survive the battle of Malachor V....

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Note that when I put Revan on the list, I'm referring to him as depicted in KotOR 2, not Gnost Dural's retcon.
You mean as the Revanchrist?

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Revan and Malak stopped serving Vitiate pretty early on tbh. He only sent them to find the Star Forge. Testing the republic would be irrelevant.

Vitiate sent them to find the star forge and use it against the republic. They broke free of the control Vitiate had over them which is why I said "indirectly" but they still remained sith and as sith everything they did served the Emperor's plans.

Revan deserves to take credit for his accomplishments as a sith no doubt but Revan as a sith most certainly doesn't come close to Vitiate. Darth Revan was like an extension of the true sith empire's domain.


Originally posted by psmith81992
If Plagueis hadn't intervened, Sidious would have continued his meaningless existence up until his death. So there is no difference.

So Palpatine, a guy who was born evil and got an offer from Plagueis and joined the sith naturally by his own will is as much victim as Revan, the Republic's champion who dedicated his life to serve the good in the galaxy who got mindraped by an evil Emperor to serve his evil plans. Makes sense. thumb up

DarthAnt66
Revan made his Sith Empire and the Jedi Civil War in hope to assemble a force strong enough to kill Vitiate. They were separate empire's with separate visions. erm

Sinious
Yet he did not manage to free himself from the dark side and killed a lot more jedi than sith and greatly harmed the republic by your own admittance(countless times).

They became separate empires with separate visions in time yet until the death of Darth Malak, Vitiate's effect on Revan and Malak did not end completely.

Revanchiste
Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate sent them to find the star forge and use it against the republic. They broke free of the control Vitiate had over them which is why I said "indirectly" but they still remained sith and as sith everything they did served the Emperor's plans.

Revan deserves to take credit for his accomplishments as a sith no doubt but Revan as a sith most certainly doesn't come close to Vitiate. Darth Revan was like an extension of the true sith empire's domain.




So Palpatine, a guy who was born evil and got an offer from Plagueis and joined the sith naturally by his own will is as much victim as Revan, the Republic's champion who dedicated his life to serve the good in the galaxy who got mindraped by an evil Emperor to serve his evil plans. Makes sense. thumb up

In fact Revan need the sith he is using a part of the true sith army... He need to do not show hostilities, he pretext to build his own empire to keep the true sith empire hiden...

He don't want war with the true sith yet the star forge is in range of them he need the republic to fight them...

Revan always work on his own...

psmith81992
How many murders did Palpatine commit before meeting Plagueis? Exactly. thumb up

Revanchiste
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan made his Sith Empire and the Jedi Civil War in hope to assemble a force strong enough to kill Vitiate. They were separate empire's with separate visions. erm

But Revan want Vitiate to belive than he still work for Vitiate acount....


Revan didn't really go mind rape he know than the emperor will defeat him.... And he seek Vitiate teaching....

Revan is already some kind of sith lord way before Malachor V....

He quicly escape Vitiate control....

He want to protect the republic by his own methods.... That's pretty clear in KotOR 2...

Revan already convert Jedi at Malachor V battle.... A way before than Vitiate have control over him.... The Jedi council is his main ennemy..

Come on Darth ant take your quote from KotOR 2 !!!!

Sinious
Originally posted by psmith81992
How many murders did Palpatine commit before meeting Plagueis? Exactly. thumb up

Murder is not the only evil thing a person can do but he caused the death of several people by accident but didn't feel bad about it at all. He, from the day he was born cared for power and nothing else. "If not power, then nothing." his words at the age of 17. His own father considered him to be an unnatural being. The dark side of the force was present within him in a so sinister and sophisticated manner that even Darth Plagueis himself couldn't read through his mind and sense the force in him when they first met. Should I go on?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Sinious
Yet he did not manage to free himself from the dark side and killed a lot more jedi than sith and greatly harmed the republic by your own admittance(countless times).
Lmfao, no. Revan had "tremendous dark side power" even before he was corrupted by Vitiate. All Vitiate did was crown him as a Sith. I find it so funny when people like you trying to debate when you actually know nothing about the character. Revan even as the Mandalorian Wars was corrupting thousands of Jedi, knowingly sacrificing fleets of his own men for victory, and intentionally did the devastation on Malachor V to get rid of virtually everyone in the Republic army who opposed him.

When Revan came back from the Unknown Regions, his goal was to assemble a military force capable of overcoming Vitiate's empire. He had his Star Forge army, a third of the Republic military, and began the reconstruction of the Mandalorians and HK-50 battle droids to also combat against Vitiate. He didn't "greedily harm" the Republic, suggesting that is an embarrassment to society. Every attack completed during the Jedi Civil War had tactical foresight, intentionally keeping specific infrastructure's of worlds intact while eliminating potential political rivals.

Nephthys
He did greatly harm the Republic. Without the Exile to save everyone's asses his actions would have doomed the Republic.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
He did greatly harm the Republic. Without the Exile to save everyone's asses his actions would have doomed the Republic.
My mistake, I thought he said "greedily harmed," not "greatly harmed." Revan intended to destroy the Republic so he could have established a Empire capable of beating Vitiate. thumb up

Nephthys

DarthAnt66
That's Revan's light side interpretation of what happened, not narrative canon, lol.

Sinious

DarthAnt66
It took you 12 minutes to quote what Nephthys just said above?

Sinious
Well goddamn it kid read more carefully next time.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's Revan's light side interpretation of what happened, not narrative canon, lol.

Your opinion > Revan's on his own actions, ok.

Lets just ignore that the suggestions that Revan was preparing for a greater enemy came from HK-47 and Kreia, who are super not biased towards him.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan is only a Sith in the first place because of Vitiate. All of his accomplishments since then are merely extensions of Vitiate's own.

Originally posted by Stigma
Damn, that's a good point thumb up

Not really. Going by that logic Ajunta Pall is the most accomplished as without him no Sith would have existed.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
Not really. Going by that logic Ajunta Pall is the most accomplished as without him no Sith would have existed.

Bad example. That's too indirect. Vitiate directly mindjacked Revan and made him go back and fvck shit up. It's totally different.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Your opinion > Revan's on his own actions, ok.

Lets just ignore that the suggestions that Revan was preparing for a greater enemy came from HK-47 and Kreia, who are super not biased towards him.

They weren't suggesting. Avellone said in a shit ton of interviews that Revan was specifically preparing for a greater enemy.

Sinious
LMAO, it seems Ant has much to learn about Revan. But I don't blame him since he was literally 2 years old when the game came out. laughing out loud

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
They weren't suggesting. Avellone said in a shit ton of interviews that Revan was specifically preparing for a greater enemy.

Hence why I called it a retcon. Avellone isn't in a position to make that call anymore.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bad example. That's too indirect. Vitiate directly mindjacked Revan and made him go back and fvck shit up. It's totally different.

Revan became his own agent once he discovered the Star Forge. Those accomplishments are his own.

Edit: I'm not saying Revan accomplished more than Vitiate BTW.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Hence why I called it a retcon. Avellone isn't in a position to make that call anymore.
Revan's interpretation cannot form a retcon over a major plotline. thumb down

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Sinious
LMAO, it seems Ant has much to learn about Revan.
lol what?

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
Revan became his own agent once he discovered the Star Forge. Those accomplishments are his own.

He was still performing the Emperor's will, he just saw it as his own.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's interpretation cannot form a retcon over a major plotline. thumb down

Revan's opinion on his own actions based on his own memories should be held high as evidence. I'm pretty sure his statements are stronger than Kreia and HK's.

But hey, if you really want to check why not drop your pal Karpyshan a line. I'm sure he'll agree with his own words.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
Krayt was given much better resources when he began his rule.

Not at all. Vitiate "began his rule" as the ruler of an entire planet and seized the remnants of the Sith empire and rebuilt in secrecy. Krayt started from absolute scratch as the ruler of nothing and nadda.

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate carried out an impossible task and at the end, he reached a level of existence far beyond Krayt.

Ease up with your strokes; you don't want friction burn. Vitiate was the ruler of an entire world, axed 8k of his rivals in a ritual, seized their assets and spent a thousand years building his empire in secret. That's pretty damn impressive, no doubt. Krayt started out as a no-name Jedi in the galactic backwater and his Sith education was the equivalent of a University of Phoenix online education. Still, he managed to create his own Sith order, populated their ranks, manipulated events for decades between the GA and Empire, and assumed the throne and ruled a greater swath of galactic territory than anybody but Palpatine. And he too achieved a state of immortality. thumb up

What Vitiate did was impressive, just not as impressive or as efficient as Krayt's seizure. Nor did Krayt enjoy a position of advantage like Vitiate did.

Originally posted by Sinious
But I guess yours is a respectable opinion as well.

Thx.

Sinious
Originally posted by Nephthys
He was still performing the Emperor's will, he just saw it as his own.



Revan's opinion on his own actions based on his own memories should be held high as evidence. I'm pretty sure his statements are stronger than Kreia and HK's.

But hey, if you really want to check why not drop your pal Karpyshan a line. I'm sure he'll agree with his own words.

thumb up x 10

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
He was still performing the Emperor's will, he just saw it as his own.

He was conquering the galaxy for himself not Vitiate.

The_Tempest
That's weak, bro. Now if you want to say {and can prove} that Revan's accomplishments are an extension of Vitiate's own because he authored them himself and merely used Revan a la Sidious & Dooku, that's one thing. But to say well Vitiate made Revan a Sith so literally everything Revan ever did is as attributable to Vitiate as it is to Revan and maybe moreso is an incredible stance {literally}.

Nephthys
Everything Revan did as a Sith was in service to Vitiate's goals and at Vitiate's command, as per Revan's own admission.

ares834
And as it says they "twisted" them. Sure, Vitiate sent them to conquer the galaxy for him, but in he end they were the conquering the galaxy for themselves.

psmith81992
No, we get the gist. And the point is, he did absolutely nothing until he was introduced to Plagueis, so your point is irrelevant.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
And as it says they "twisted" them. Sure, Vitiate sent them to conquer the galaxy for him, but in he end they were the conquering the galaxy for themselves.

They thought they were, but the were still partially under his control and still doing his bidding. Their actions were directly a result of Vitiate's influence over them and thus merely an extension of his own accomplishments.

Sinious
Originally posted by psmith81992
No, we get the gist. And the point is, he did absolutely nothing until he was introduced to Plagueis, so your point is irrelevant.

Again, are you saying that Revan and Sidious were equally evil by nature? Revan ended up being the champion of the republic where Sidious would most likely wouldn't even be accepted by the jedi. Sidious would be an evil/corrupt politician. The only thing that would be missing is his force powers.

Revan on the other hand, became a victim of circumstances at first and then he got mindraped by the Emperor on top of that. If you can't see the difference between these two stories, I don't know what to tell you tbh, no offense.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
They thought they were, but the were still partially under his control and still doing his bidding. Their actions were directly a result of Vitiate's influence and thus merely an extension of his own accomplishments.

They were only partially doing his bidding. They were conquering the galaxy, sure, but they weren't conquering it for Vitiate but rather themselves. Hell, they were preparing the galaxy for the true Sith" invasion who, at the time, they had no memory of. Really, Vitiate's only accomplishment in this mess is creating a very formidable enemy.

And Palpatine's accomplishments were a direct result of Plagues's training. So I guess he gets credit for Palpatine conquering the galaxy, right?

psmith81992
The differences you're stating are irrelevant if one does not act on his "nature". My point stands.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
They were only partially doing his bidding. They were conquering the galaxy, sure, but they weren't conquering it for Vitiate but rather themselves. Hell, they were preparing the galaxy for the true Sith" invasion who, at the time, they had no memory of. Really, Vitiate's only accomplishment in this mess is creating a very formidable enemy.

And Palpatine's accomplishments were a direct result of Plagues's training. So I guess he gets credit for Palpatine conquering the galaxy, right?

How could they be preparing for an invasion they had no memory of? That doesn't make any sense. It's been retconned. That they were only partially doing his bidding doesn't detract from the fact that they were only doing it because he made them do it. Their actions were the result of his instruction and influence. If nothing else, Vitiate stomping Revan and Malak, turning them and getting them to attack the Republic are completely his own actions and still much more impressive than Revan's. Also lol, Darth Revan was never a threat to Vitiate. He was still partially under his control. As soon as they're in the same room he's completely back under him. Darth Revan would have served his master the galaxy on a silver platter.

Actually, shouldn't Plagueis get some of the credit for the Grand Plan? Did he not contribute towards it in a significant way? Or at least give Palpatine the tools to make it happen? Just training him obviously doesn't factor in but shouldn't that stuff count?

Sinious
Originally posted by psmith81992
The differences you're stating are irrelevant if one does not act on his "nature". My point stands.

Well thats the point. He did act on them. He was too young and had to follow certain protocols to secure himself a place of power and influence in his society so he didn't go out and do crazy things like torturing people but he did what he could do in his circumstances. He was already an evil being.

Plagueis triggered certain feelings in Sidious true, but Sidious massacred his entire family without the teachings of the sith.

ares834
That they have no memory of the Sith doesn't mean they completely forgot about some threat in the unknown regions. Plus we've got multiple sources saying they were preparing for an invasion, one of which is newer than the novel and therefore retconning it. And nah, stomping two powerful dark Jedi and making them your pawns is not a bigger accomplishment than conquering a third of the galaxy and nearly destroying the Jedi.

Do you have any evidence that Darth Revan would instantly return fully to Vitiate's control? The fact that he doesn't when he regains his memories certainly suggests otherwise.

And sure, Plags gets some of the "credit" but they are ultimately Sheev's accomplishments. It's the same with Vitate and Revan.

FreshestSlice
The Emperor had no idea what Revan and Malak were doing, but somehow they were following his will.

Ooookay.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ares834
That they have no memory of the Sith doesn't mean they completely forgot about some threat in the unknown regions. Plus we've got multiple sources saying they were preparing for an invasion, one of which is newer than the novel and therefore retconning it. And nah, stomping two powerful dark Jedi and making them your pawns is not a bigger accomplishment than conquering a third of the galaxy and nearly destroying the Jedi.

Do you have any evidence that Darth Revan would instantly return fully to Vitiate's control? The fact that he doesn't when he regains his memories certainly suggests otherwise.

And sure, Plags gets some of the "credit" but they are ultimately Sheev's accomplishments. It's the same with Vitate and Revan.

Except the novel states they were trying to crush all resistance, so still retconned. Whats the newer source? It'd have to be pretty unquestionable and explicit to overrule Revan own damn words about his own actions. And demonstrating superiority over someone who then went on to do all that at your behest is a better accomplishment than Revan failing to conquer the galaxy. Vitiate almost destroyed the Republic without even having to stand up.

erm If he's still partially under his control I'm pretty sure he's not going to be able to resist the Big Man directly pushing him fully back under. He doesn't when he regains his memories because he's completely free from Vitiate's influence then, was more powerful and had prepared a defense. None of which hold for Darth Revan.

No, because everything Revan did was merely a warped version of Vitiate's instructions. It's not the same as Palpatine doing stuff completely independently of Plagueis. Revan was still under Vitiate's control and still performing his will.

psmith81992
Not until he met Plagueis.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys

No, because everything Revan did was merely a warped version of Vitiate's instructions. It's not the same as Palpatine doing stuff completely independently of Plagueis. Revan was still under Vitiate's control and still performing his will.
All Revan was sent to do was collect information. How is anything Revan did after being "partially" free involved with collecting information?

Sinious
Originally posted by psmith81992
Not until he met Plagueis.

So? You don't have an argument here. Vitiate mindraped Revan and sent him to do his bidding and Revan broke free from the Emperor's control yet ended up doing the Emperor's bidding anyway. thumb up

Present an argument that refutes this, if you can. If not, I'm not sure what we are debating about.

Nephthys

psmith81992
Actually he didn't, but good try. My argument is the only thing that's standing here, your pitiful attempts to point out "differences" notwithstanding.

Sinious
Originally posted by psmith81992
Actually he didn't, but good try. My argument is the only thing that's standing here, your pitiful attempts to point out "differences" notwithstanding.

laughing

It must be hard for you to see your hero admit himself how he was still only partially free from the Emperor. Go join Ant's denial club, I'm done trying with you. It takes something special to fail to see the huge difference between characters like Sidious and Revan. Bravo.

psmith81992
Congratulations! Your constant inability to make an argument, much less follow one, has become quite obvious. When you say you're "done", I assume it just means you don't want to continue your embarrassing line of reasoning any further, for fear of ridicule. Admirable. So much for claiming someone else is in denial, LOL laughing out loud

Sinious
I gave a firsthand quote that proves Vitiate's control on Revan wasn't over. :/

Where is your proof of your arguments? You've presented nothing other than your own yapping.

psmith81992
Do I really need to give you quotes? Why don't we go look at the entire plot of the KOTOR games, followed by SWTOR. Revan and Malak broke off from the Emperor, and he moved on to his own agenda. Then he tried to kill the Emperor. I'm not sure you even understand what constitutes as proof when you randomly scream "look, quotes!". All 3 games, as well as the Revan novel, prove that Vitiate's control over Revan ended, and ended fast. Quit while behind.

Sinious
LMAO @ "as well as the Revan novel."

No, Revan got mindraped by Vitiate. Vitiate sent him to find the star forge and harm the republic as much as he can. Revan and Malak kinda broke free from Vitiate's direct control yet not his influence(this, stated by himself in the novel). And then guess what happened? Revan did exactly what Vitiate wanted him to do. He may have done it all by his own name and command but he still did what Vitiate anticipated him to do.

Only until the jedi wiped his memory and recreated his character, he was completely free from Vitiate but since he stopped being a sith at that point, it is irrelevant in this thread.

psmith81992
Please list this "quote". Also [email protected] explaining to us the plot of KOTOR and Revan. Bravo there. Not to mention, you STILL can't follow the discussion because while you were busy going off on a tangent, the issue at hand was the following response to DE who said "everything Revan did was because of Vitiate".




So once again, bravo for that good show! laughing out loud

FreshestSlice

Nephthys
You said Revan was just sent to collect information. Clearly you were wrong, which was the only thing I was pointing out.

Also I am pretty sure if you release a wild animal into the public then you are responsible for it's actions. If the pitbull mauled someone I don't think they'd sue the dog, they'd sue you.

The Merchant
Revanchiste, which Sith destroyed a Moon over Korriban? Also if we're talking about power:

1.Palpatine
2.Vitiate
3.Plagueis
4.Nihilus
5.Caedus
6.Krayt
7.Exar Kun
8.Vader
9.Zannah
10.Bane
11.Malgus
12.Nox
13.Wrath
14.Ragnos
15.Sadow
16.Dooku
17.Traya
18.Freedon Nadd
19.Malak
20.Maul.

Honorable mentions goes to the Dark Jedi Exiles, Tulak Hord, and the Dread Masters who I used to have on the list but not anymore cause eh reasons.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
You said Revan was just sent to collect information. Clearly you were wrong, which was the only thing I was pointing out.

That is what a vanguard does. But what I quoted earlier was something based off of what Nyriss said. I'm not going to remember every random quote in book, so yes I was wrong there. That doesn't make your point anymore correct.

Completely missing the point. Vitiate releasing a force onto the galaxy that does not accomplish what he sent it to do, regardless of the outcomes, does not make Vitiate successful. Especially if the outcome is the exact opposite of what Vitiate wants, which is a delayed war with the Republic. Revan causing a Jedi Civil War is not an achievement for Vitiate, definitely not when Revan does it without Vitiate's support or influence in achieving that outcome. And before you say, "He told him to go kill things," I mean actually implementing, structuring, and accomplishing said outcomes.

Nephthys
I wasn't even addressing the point, I was nitpicking your example about pitbulls. At this point I don't feel like repeating myself is worth the effort. Vitiate told him to use his forces to crush all resistance and defeat the Republic, which is exactly what Revan tried to do. Everything Darth Revan did and accomplished with in service to Vitiate's goals and at his command, whilst under his mental domination. I don't see how anyone can say that what Darth Revan accomplished wasn't directly a result of Vitiate's machinations.

ares834
It was. Just as Palpatine conquering the galaxy was a direct result of Plageuis.

FreshestSlice
The fact that the nitpick didn't even have anything to do with the point aside:
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how anyone can say that what Darth Revan accomplished wasn't directly a result of Vitiate's machinations.
Because Vitiate didn't want him to actually do those things and didn't encourage them? That's the definition of indirect. There's no doubt Vitiate's influenced lead to these events, but they didn't directly cause them, and thus they aren't a point for Vitiate being successful. Especially since it ended detrimentally for him.

Revanchiste

Revanchiste
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
lol what?

Look Revan from the point of view of an historian, like Gnost Dural, but imagine you are not a Jedi but instead one of Revan ex officier and you know personaly Revan and you try to rebuilt his story with KotOR 1/2 informations about him...

Take a dialog bank a really solid one and reacearch !!!

There is few things than you have missed...

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except the novel states they were trying to crush all resistance, so still retconned. Whats the newer source? It'd have to be pretty unquestionable and explicit to overrule Revan own damn words about his own actions. And demonstrating superiority over someone who then went on to do all that at your behest is a better accomplishment than Revan failing to conquer the galaxy. Vitiate almost destroyed the Republic without even having to stand up.of Plagueis. Revan was still under Vitiate's control and still performing his will.

Newer source is SWTORE.

Originally posted by Nephthys erm If he's still partially under his control I'm pretty sure he's not going to be able to resist the Big Man directly pushing him fully back under. He doesn't when he regains his memories because he's completely free from Vitiate's influence then, was more powerful and had prepared a defense. None of which hold for Darth Revan.

So you're making shit up. Got it. thumb up

However, Revan was creating a new empire in direct opposition to Vitiate's. What an accomplishment!

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, because everything Revan did was merely a warped version of Vitiate's instructions. It's not the same as Palpatine doing stuff completely independently of Plagueis. Revan was still under Vitiate's control and still performing his will.

And Plapatine, via conquering thgalaxy and destroying the Jedi, was also doing a warped version of Plags' will.

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not at all. Vitiate "began his rule" as the ruler of an entire planet and seized the remnants of the Sith empire and rebuilt in secrecy. Krayt started from absolute scratch as the ruler of nothing and nadda.



Ease up with your strokes; you don't want friction burn. Vitiate was the ruler of an entire world, axed 8k of his rivals in a ritual, seized their assets and spent a thousand years building his empire in secret. That's pretty damn impressive, no doubt. Krayt started out as a no-name Jedi in the galactic backwater and his Sith education was the equivalent of a University of Phoenix online education. Still, he managed to create his own Sith order, populated their ranks, manipulated events for decades between the GA and Empire, and assumed the throne and ruled a greater swath of galactic territory than anybody but Palpatine. And he too achieved a state of immortality. thumb up



I wasn't referring to their personal wealth or belongings when they started. I mean that the sith faction was in a worse shape in TOR iirc. I'm not sure what exactly was going on in Korriban when Krayt came there though. The most important factor here is the outer circumstances of their era. How powerful was his enemies at that time? In TOR, we know that they had 300 years to recover and grow in power but the Alliance that Krayt faced wasn't in its best shape after the Vong war. After the invasion of Coruscant, Krayt simply took over an organization that already existed which is quite advantageous compared to Vitiate's case since Vitiate never intended to take over the republic even though he successfully invaded Coruscant as well. I admit though, that Krayt's political cunning is very impressive.




Lets find a consensus of opinion and agree on this: Krayt was more successful at ascending to the throne and Vitiate was more successful at keeping the throne. rolling on floor laughing

Revanchiste

carthage
Nadd should probably be on here for the OR he more or less influenced everyone from Revan, Kun, Zannah, and Bane. His influence is being undersold imo, he taught multiple generations of Sith arcane techniques.

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