Top 10 Old Republic Era Duelists

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ILS
Who were the ten best duelists who lived during the Old Republic Era?

That's 25,053BBY up until 1000BBY.

carthage
1000 BBY
that's Rise of the Empire, technically

Emperordmb
Tulak Hord, Kas'im, 2nd Wrath, HOT, Scourge, Malak, Exar Kun, Raskta Lsu, and two others probably, in no particular order.

ILS
1000 BBY was the timeline border between OR era and RotE era. It's either depending on which end of the calendar you're at.

Emperordmb
I think it's safe to assume the border was the seventh Battle of Ruusan, with anything after that battle falling in Rise of the Empire, and the battle itself and anything before being Old Republic Era.

ILS
Yep. Tis what the wookiee told me as well.

carthage
Kun
Malgus
Revan
Ulic Qel Droma

Hord is featless, and Raskta and Kas'im don't have any business being up on any list due to lacking feats

Emperordmb
Droma and Malgus!

Knew I was forgetting two people.

Tulak Hord, Lord Kas'im, 2nd Wrath, Hero of Tython, Lord Scourge, Darth Malak, Exar Kun, Raskta Lsu, Ulic Qel Droma, and Darth Malgus.

There's my ten.

ILS
Not a bad list. How would you order it, roughly?

Revanchiste
(Not in order)

Tulak hord, Naga sadow, Marka Ragnos, Revan, Malak.... Kun, Ulic Qel Droma Malgus, Satele Kao cen Darach...

Not Vindician.......

1 2 3...9

And I forgot his name.

Stigma
I'd just go with top 5:

Kun
Malgus
Ulic
Revan
Malak?

Nephthys
I'd put quite a few before Malak. Hord, HoT, Nox, Wrath, Scourge, Nyriss, Bane, Kas'im, Zannah and more most likely.

ILS
I'll chime in with my list.

1. Exar Kun/Revan/Ulic Qel-Droma
2. Exar Kun/Revan/Ulic Qel-Droma
3. Exar Kun/Revan/Ulic Qel-Droma
4. Darth Malgus
5. Hero of Tython/Wrath
6. Hero of Tython/Wrath
7. Tulak Hord
8. Aryn Leneer / Vodo-Siosk Baas
9. Darth Malak
10. Freedon Nadd / Ven Zallow

Key:
"Character name"/"Character name" on multiple lines means they are interchangeable.

"Character name"*Space*/*Space*"Character name" on one line means they are too close to call at the moment.

I'm eager to have that list critiqued, however, mostly for duelists I'm missing. I think the rankings themselves are fairly accurate although if some of my choices can broken down out of tiers and into simple placements that would be preferred.

Nephthys
Really, Revan? I thought no-one but Ant considered him anything more than a decent duelist.

ILS
His position could move around quite a lot, tbh, but I think he's safely in the top 4 somewhere.

Trocity
Malgus above Revan imo

ILS
Arguably, tbh.

carthage
Hord, Bane, Kas'im, and Zannah have no business being in the top

Revanchiste
Originally posted by Trocity
Malgus above Revan imo

Revan received Tulak Hord holocron he let it in place fore his future academmy ruled by him and Exar Kun apprentice...

carthage
No one ever knows what you're saying

Revanchiste
Remember Revan schearching the star forge as a sith lord?
Remember than there is a star map on Korriban?
Remember than Revan meet the apprentice of Exar Kun there?
Remember how thirsty of Knowledge Revan is?


Well Tulak hord possess an holocron where he record allhis technic and explain how to master all the forms....

Kreia to the exile :
We do not know. But it is assumed that he created a holocron to teach his technique to other Sith. This holocron should be in his tomb. Unfortunately, the tomb of Tulak Hord was one of the first to be plundered by the profane of the new Sith Order. If this holocron survived, I doubt anyone knows where he is.

Revan just read the Holocron.... He never take it.. Like every holocron in Korriban, in the purpuse to found his new sith academmy...

FreshestSlice
Revan isn't a better duelist than Malak. Not Revan [email protected], Not real tru KotOR3 Revan, or any other weird mix of symbols an letters Revan.

psmith81992
Of course Revan is a better duelist than Malak.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd put quite a few before Malak. Hord, HoT, Nox, Wrath, Scourge, Nyriss, Bane, Kas'im, Zannah and more most likely.
Zannah wasn't a trained duelist during that time period.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by psmith81992
Of course Revan is a better duelist than Malak.
I'd say Revan is more powerful, but Malak is definitely more skilled, which is what I assume most mean when they say, "_____ is a better duelist."

psmith81992
This is based on what? Malak lost his face in a lightsaber duel with Revan.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by carthage
Hord, Bane, Kas'im, and Zannah have no business being in the top

How so? :hmm

Well, Zannah I get, but the rest?

As far as assessing skill goes (as hilariously stupid as it is to try in fictional media anyway)?

Accolades and A>B>C logic are really some of the few ways of actually doing it (hell the PT shines so much solely due to them possessing some of the best dueling accolades. Have fun determining skill without those :maybe).

Hord and Kas'im have accolades, Hord's dueling being espoused as better than those of the KOTOR era Jedi/Sith even

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Emailed Avellone about Kreia's talk on Hord for what it's worth

1. When Kreia speaks of Tulak Hord and his prowess with the Lightsaber, she mentions how ancient Sith Lords would make more modern wielders of the force look like children playing with toys. How does she know this? Is she merely speculating off of information she read? Did she come across his and other Sith holocrons? Was she just making things up? Or, given the sort of clairvoyance she showed at the end of the game, did she possibly glean this information by some kind of psychometry? If the latter most choice is viable, would you have any opinion on how Kreia would compare herself to Hord in terms of raw force power too?

^That's the question, his response is the image in the hyperlink

And just in case the image eventually breaks, here it is in quotes



Take it as you will, though at the very least Avellone doesn't feel Kreia was being all that hyperbolic.

At the very least, doesn't seem like TOR does anything to contradict Hord being that awesome.

^As far as Word of God is concerned too? Her assessment was fairly spot on.

Though as I say in the quoted post? You're free to take it as you will.

Ignoring it will probably amuse me more honestly.

Kas'im has that thing about being a master of all styles or some shit. Don't remember it exactly.

Bane's defeated people with some decent accolades in his era too.

Being so fond of Nexii as you are? I suppose that doesn't click in your head.

That being said, not my job to help you figure out that being amplified by a nexus is hardly going to help your skill. Products of precision brought about by increasing muscle memory is sort of something I don't foresee more energy to draw from increasing :maybe

Emperordmb
Zannah's not even a viable candidate, as she doesn't even know how to use a lightsaber by the end of the Seventh Battle of Ruusan.

ChaosTheory123
That's the "I get" part :maybe

carthage
Kas'im unless I'm missing something has nothing other than Bane's opinion, and is entirely beneath some of the guys being discussed. Raskta has an accolade but lacks the feats to be put on here aside from her amped showing, and Bane himself has no feats comparing to Kun, Revan, Ulic, or Malgus. Bane has only beaten a Sith trainee in terms of sheer skill and fought evenly with Zannah, who beat no one of note at all.

The TOR era generally focuses more on power than skill, so the list will probably be a lot shorter than say the PT era

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by carthage
Kas'im unless I'm missing something has nothing other than Bane's opinion, and is entirely beneath some of the guys being discussed. Raskta has an accolade but lacks the feats to be put on here aside from her amped showing, and Bane himself has no feats comparing to Kun, Revan, Ulic, or Malgus. Bane uas only beaten a Sith trainee in terms of sheer skill and fought evenly with Zannah, who beat no one of note at all

Like I said, Kas'im I didn't remember too well. If it was mostly Bane's opinion?

That's fair enough.

As for Raskta?

I already told you, accolades and A>B>C logic are some of the only ways to gauge skill (though I'd argue blocking blaster bolts and force lightning might be some of the few feat based ways that don't require A>B>C logic). That falls apart once you leave the series you're discussing too.

If he only held those accolades by virtue of his amp (which via battle meditation is one of the few ways skill DOES increase with more energy), that's fair.

Otherwise? His accolades are fine, if not untested and holding less weight compared to someone with similar accolades and more feats to his name.

carthage
Actual showings of skill >> accolades >> personal assessments. The guys listed i,e Kun, Malgus, Ulic, Revan, etc all have established showings and accolades to substantiate them, so A,B,C logic is entirely unnecessary to determine their placement. Kas'im and Raskta have showings that are entirely compromised by being amped, their or rather Raskta's and Hord's accolades are entirely meaningless unless they have showings to back them up. Bane himself had circumstances fighting them being amped and killing Kas'im with nexus energy (not skill) and fighting Raskta with armor and a nexus amp. He doesnt rank solely for the reason that his dueling feats arent by virtue of his own skill

Nephthys
I'd advise against listening to carthage on this CT. He hates the Bane era for some bizarre reason. And a lot of pre-PT stuff too.

Kas'im's skill is notable because he utterly mastered every aspect of lightsaber combat, invented thousands of moves and sequences for them and spent decades purely perfecting the art of lightsaber dueling.

carthage
Lol. i dont hate the Bane era, you and other posters wank it beyond belief. Kas'im's knowledge of forms mean nothing, he has no feats to compare to some of the duelists being discussed.

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by carthage
Actual showings of skill >> accolades >> personal assessments.

And what do you consider a skill showing?

There's the unambiguous stuff like precision deflection of blaster bolts and being able to block force lightning at all

What's left then? What I mentioned above are kind of not super common.

I suppose killing hords of people helps too, though only if they swarm you en masse



Kun and Ulic thrive off the accolade of being master lightsaber duelists and defeating similarly skilled duelists in kind.

Revan? I can give you his storming the Star Forge, defeating Malak (a ****er reliant mostly on accolades), and for blocking Vitiate's lightning.

Malgus? I can't actually comment on without playing TOR



...

That is some bizarre as hell logic honestly

So what if Raskta was amped? If the accolade was speaking of amped Raskta, you have a point

If not? His accolade stands

Kas'im? Your stance holds more water depending on his accolades only being due to Bane's personal opinion.

Amped? You can't amplify skill by gorging on more power. Battle Meditation is a special skill that can do that solely through effecting your mind.

Skill is precision born of muscle memory, you don't gain more precision by introducing more energy into the system.



Well, I'm certainly happy with the amusement outright ignoring word of god supporting Hord's accolades produced :maybe

Far be it for you to want to accept a historical character with little screen time being more skillful than those that actually have it.

Given "I don't like it" is really you're only viable rebuttal here.

Raskta's? They're important, but hold less weight than those possessing the same accolade, but with more feats to their name. Even then, the feats would need to be of some actual substance and significance to actually draw a distinction.



The way the fight with Kas'im ended doesn't invalidate how the fight was going before Kas'im employed Jar Kai

You're also going to need to dredge up some compelling evidence that drawing on outside energy enhances your precision and muscle memory too before you can start shouting "Nexus" regarding Bane too.

Moderately fair point with Raskta vs Bane, as Bane could afford to be sloppy with most of his body given his armor.

Not entirely so, but one of the few you bring up that bothers to be compelling.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd advise against listening to carthage on this CT. He hates the Bane era for some bizarre reason. And a lot of pre-PT stuff too.

I'm not

Not for those reasons you mentioned, more so because he has no actual clue what he's talking about

Skill's a ***** to quantify in general, accolades are one of the few reliable ways to actually do it. It's more or less the only reason the PT era sits pretty.

Though I'd say Mace deflecting Sidious' force lightning is one of the best skill feats in the mythos that doesn't rely on A>B>C logic

ILS
Isn't deflecting Force lightning more of a resistance feat, rather than skill?

ChaosTheory123
Originally posted by ILS
Isn't deflecting Force lightning more of a resistance feat, rather than skill?

Nah, think about it

Lightning they create still has the stepped leaders real lightning does, just on a smaller scale

What's that mean though?

As lightning propagates to their target?

It's trajectory is constantly shifting

Have fun trying to judge that correctly to block now :maybe

Trocity
A good case to counter Kas'im is Anoon Bondara. His lightsaber skill was considered second to none by many in the PT. Bane's perspective isn't enough to establish Kas'im as an elite duelist. Qui-Gon Jinn humbled Anoon, while Darth Maul was seconds from killing him after solidly outfighting him. The fact that Kas'im perfected thousands of sequences of saber moves is impressive and he is surely technically skilled, but that isn't enough to credit him with being a high tier duelist.

ChaosTheory123
Indeed

And the trail of A>B>C logic piled up with some decent accolades shows as much

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by psmith81992
This is based on what? Malak lost his face in a lightsaber duel with Revan.
Based on the writer's statements about Malak being superior. Again, Revan is more powerful than Malak. Skill only takes you so far.

psmith81992
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Based on the writer's statements about Malak being superior. Again, Revan is more powerful than Malak. Skill only takes you so far.

Where does the writer note Malak's superiority exactly? Would love to see the quote.

Selenial
I agree with ILS, pretty much. Only difference is he puts Revan too high IMO, and id replace Wrath with Surik, then putting the Wrath below her.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by psmith81992
Where does the writer note Malak's superiority exactly? Would love to see the quote.
Ask Ant for it. It's in his respect thread for Malak. And given his level of obsession, I doubt it's fake.

Revanchiste
Originally posted by Selenial
I agree with ILS, pretty much. Only difference is he puts Revan too high IMO, and id replace Wrath with Surik, then putting the Wrath below her.
Sorry replay KotOR 1 and 2 Tulak hord Holocron...

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