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After thinking about Traya's statement of how Nihilus near end of the game is just getting near to some of the Ancient Sith's power, you guys think Sadow, Ragnos, Hord and finally Kun are above him? While she did say that in the Dark side path, I heard as long as it doesn't contradict the main story info like that is totally legitimate. And hey the Ancient Sith know of Nihilus's technique and even some Sith in Vitiate's empire knows it besides Vitiate himself. Just my two cents.

Have a youtube video or screen shot with the quote?

As far as being in the dark side route?

So long as the information isn't contradicted by the canon route, nothing stands to reason events were altered in a manner that she still wouldn't believe that

This kind of goes for all video games though, not just star wars

Not that most fans actually know how to deal with video games for god knows what reasons :lmao

Avellone said she was spot on about Hord, stands to reason she'd probably be right about Nihilus too

She has the psychometric/clairvoyant power to glean that kind of information if she really wanted to and all

That said, you'll probably see resistance to them playing connect the dots here

Gotta preserve that omnipotent gigadrain and all~

Originally posted by The Merchant
After thinking about Traya's statement of how Nihilus near end of the game is just getting near to some of the Ancient Sith's power, you guys think Sadow, Ragnos, Hord and finally Kun are above him? While she did say that in the Dark side path, I heard as long as it doesn't contradict the main story info like that is totally legitimate. And hey the Ancient Sith know of Nihilus's technique and even some Sith in Vitiate's empire knows it besides Vitiate himself. Just my two cents.
She's only taking about his proficiency with drain. Not even the scope of it, just his mastery of it.

8VvS5MLnG0Y

Skip to 3:50.

Simple, she is wrong. Also from a non-canon scene so no, not a legitimate source of info.

How is she wrong though? I could concede to that point of it being non-canon though.

Because no ancient Sith aside from perhaps Vitiate have shown anything approaching Nihilus in power.

Kun with his Dark Reaper? Although I guess that doesn't count as personal power. But Traya did say the Sith didn't use the technique because it'll turn them into Nihilus.

Lucia's and Haru's fathers in RAVE had ass for feats too

They're apparently top tiers supported by word of god or some shit

Thus they benefit from retroactive powerscaling

Sure, you're free to deny that, but vs debating is way too subjective to really say how to go about it is correct or not.

Granted, Kreia's technically not word of god, but as with the Hord scene, it could actually be inferred Avellone was conveying that, yes, she knows what she's talking about

As for the canonicity of the scene?

What about Nihilus has altered significantly between the Dark and Light paths, where does his history deviate with your non-canon choices that end up with him coming out as a completely different entity in the dark side route as opposed to in the light side?

You all seem to have a difficulty understanding "canon" is in reference to events that happened. While an event doesn't need to occur, the information given in a non-canon event can be valid information unless contradicted

Why is this not intuitive for Star Wars exactly?

See that's what my point was. Why does the info get disregarded just because the path was in the Dark-side path? Even the Light-side path Traya mentions how God-like the Ancient Sith were and how they knew of the technique as well, just never abused it to the point of Nihilus's usage of it.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Granted, Kreia's technically not word of god, but as with the Hord scene, it could actually be inferred Avellone was conveying that, yes, she knows what she's talking about

That was certainly Avellone's intention and he intended to build the third game around it. However, that never happened and, from what we've seen, Kreia is wrong. Naga and Ludo, for example, don't display nearly the power of Nihilus.


Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
As for the canonicity of the scene?

What about Nihilus has altered significantly between the Dark and Light paths, where does his history deviate with your non-canon choices that end up with him coming out as a completely different entity in the dark side route as opposed to in the light side?

You all seem to have a difficulty understanding "canon" is in reference to events that happened. While an event doesn't need to occur, the information given in a non-canon event can be valid information unless contradicted

Why is this not intuitive for Star Wars exactly?

It's not a canon scene and therefore not a canon source. Really, I see it as no different then information taken from a non-canon book.

Originally posted by ares834
That was certainly Avellone's intention and he intended to build the third game around it. However, that never happened and, from what we've seen, Kreia is wrong. Naga and Ludo, for example, don't display nearly the power of Nihilus.

Like I said, this isn't exactly the only series where characters that have shit feats get powerscaled to better due to some accolade or another.

You're free to ignore it, vs debating is fluid as hell. While you can definitely say their are wrong ways to do it, I can say for sure there is no definite way to do it right.



You don't play many video games, do you? :hmm

Ever heard of Bayonetta?

Final boss of the first one gets defeated by being chucked into the Sun.

The non-canon game over?

While you're attempting to hurl it into the Sun, it accidentally rams into a planet, destroying it.

This event isn't canon, but it illustrates the power of whatever hurls the final boss into the Sun pretty clearly as far as the feat goes.

Nothing between the non-canon events and canon events is altered, so it's pretty easy to infer the non-canon planetary destruction factually represents the power of the canon event. Had the game over ending some how diverged from the canon in some fashion (like somehow getting a power up that doesn't happen in canon), the non canon game over doesn't fly as being an accurate portrayal.

The information that's programmed into the game, so long as it's not contradicted, stands to be held as factually correct.

If he didn't actually destroy a planet then, no I'd disagree and say the attack doesn't have that much power. Never played Bayonetta but I certainly wouldn't say Sephiroth from FF7 is a solar system buster because of his supernova animation... If it didn't happen then it didn't happen.

Basically, I completely disagree.

And what exactly supports your logic?

The event is one and the same, nothing is altered between the two sans the final outcome

One is failure where he hits a planet and recovers, the other is canon where he doesn't hit a planet and flies into the sun

Two outcomes from the same attack

Your Sephiroth example?

Flawed, word of god supports the limit in numerous secondary canon sources (along with presenting ways to infer how and why it can repeat through the confirmation that alternative dimensions exist in game via summon), it just happens that as far as the series is concerned, the feat is an outlier (the **** do you want Meteor for jackass, right?)

My logic is that if it didn't happen it didn't happen. Pretty straight forward.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Flawed, word of god supports the limit in numerous secondary canon sources (along with presenting ways to infer how and why it can repeat through the confirmation that alternative dimensions exist in game via summon), it just happens that as far as the series is concerned, the feat is an outlier (the **** do you want Meteor for jackass, right?)

And what we have concerning the ancient Sith supports the fact that they aren't as Nihilus's level so...

It's only the game over that didn't happen

The event that led to the boss getting thrown towards the Sun did in both the canon and game over scenario though

There is no difference in how it occurred other than the trjectory of the Final Boss as a projectile

Yet you assume somehow the energy, which was placed into the system before either collision occurred at the throw... is lesser in the canon version solely for the fact the trajectory was right on target

I honestly don't follow you

Your focus is the effect when you need to look at the cause and see if the difference between the two effects was due to some alteration of the cause

As for your edit?

That's just going to end up being difference of opinion based on how to conduct this hobby. I see it more as my RAVE example. You clearly see it as otherwise. That's fair enough there.

Well, no I don't think it is lesser because knocking someone all the way to the sun in a few seconds is presumably going to take more energy then to destroy a planet. However, I wouldn't use it as evidence as it's a "what if" and non-canon. It's simple really. Now if you want to argue author's intent that's fair and I may be inclined to agree in Bayonetta's case. However, in KotOR's case Avellone's intent isn't the reality anymore.

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Originally posted by ares834
Well, no I don't think it is lesser because knocking someone all the way to the sun in a few seconds is presumably going to take more energy then to destroy a planet.

Given the events occurring at speeds faster than light?

You can't really quantify it with out ignoring relativistic effects

Treating it with Newtonian properties as far as KE is concerned will probably come out to values well below most planetary GBEs without being millions of times lightspeed :hmm

That's an entirely different issue though on whether doing that is something a given board allows for debate purposes though

And really off topic :lmao



I know it's non-canon and technically a "what if"

I seem to be failing at conveying what exactly about my argument you need to focus on :hmm

Sorry about that, I'm shit with words and often seem to need multiple posts to actually convey what I want

None of that is my actual point

Its a matter of cause and effect. Your main focus seems to be the different outcomes, the effects. Its the point of origin, where in both canon and non-canon outcomes is the same, the cause, that you need to focus on and question.



I get that

This just kind of ends up being a difference in conduct though

I fully understand where you're coming from there, and that point in itself is valid

It's just that it's not the only way to tackle this hobby

Anyway, this has been more fun debating than I've had over in the OBD in a while

Granted, kind of setting the bar low when debate's kind of dead, but I'll take what I can get :maybe

Later anyway. I think I'll try sleeping or something now :hmm

Originally posted by The Merchant
After thinking about Traya's statement of how Nihilus near end of the game is just getting near to some of the Ancient Sith's power, you guys think Sadow, Ragnos, Hord and finally Kun are above him? While she did say that in the Dark side path, I heard as long as it doesn't contradict the main story info like that is totally legitimate. And hey the Ancient Sith know of Nihilus's technique and even some Sith in Vitiate's empire knows it besides Vitiate himself. Just my two cents.

The old old one? Adendu? Adas? Dathka Graush?
Because Korriban had 8 moons.... And there is a legend where one sith lord explose this moon with his TK to show than he was a god of the appocalypse... And that's why there is an asteroid belt in the ToR cinematic....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsKxJConQjE

Tulak hord was abad ass too...

You guys are operating under the "if we didn't see it, it means they can't" logic. The power of the ancient sith has frequently been described as "titanic". It was the golden age of the sith for a reason (yes, including wealth).

Time-stamp where the Sith Lord destroyed the Moon?

Stealth Moose is Chris Avellone. mmm

Shut up Beefy. uhuh

Speaking of Chris I sent him an E-mail yesterday!

Poor bastard's already wondering why the hell he's getting so many questions :lmao

Originally posted by The Merchant
Speaking of Chris I sent him an E-mail yesterday!

Ask him why he never replied to me.

Originally posted by psmith81992
You guys are operating under the "if we didn't see it, it means they can't" logic. The power of the ancient sith has frequently been described as "titanic". It was the golden age of the sith for a reason (yes, including wealth).
No surprise Chris himself admit it... You have just to go on Korriban and listen Traya...
Well there is also Rhand sorcerers who are MORE POWERFULL than the old siths...
And they CLEARLY abuse of their powers.....

Originally posted by The Merchant
Time-stamp where the Sith Lord destroyed the Moon?

I don't remember and I don't find it anymore..... But I just know it...

What?

Nothing....
I cannot send a mail with chris avellone blog system with my own mail....

Nihilus is too controversial/too much of an inconsistent character for me to rank and Sion is just fodder.

I have no problem counting Traya among the most powerful Sith of all time though

Originally posted by carthage
Nihilus is too controversial/too much of an inconsistent character for me to rank and Sion is just fodder.

I have no problem counting Traya among the most powerful Sith of all time though
Knowledge and councienss is power....
Even warhammer 40 000 admit it !

Originally posted by psmith81992
You guys are operating under the "if we didn't see it, it means they can't" logic. The power of the ancient sith has frequently been described as "titanic". It was the golden age of the sith for a reason (yes, including wealth).


We do have some samples.


One thing that makes it tricky is when someone says 'ancient sith,' we don't know precisely *which* ones. Hundred Year Darkness, early Sith Empire, late Sith Empire...

Honestly I just limit to the Sith Traya was referring to as the Dark Lords that were mentioned in the video game. Ajunta Pall, Ragnos, etc. And to an extent Kun and Ulic as well since even though they weren't mentioned have accolades like Kun being the strongest among the Ancient Sith.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Honestly I just limit to the Sith Traya was referring to as the Dark Lords that were mentioned in the video game. Ajunta Pall, Ragnos, etc. And to an extent Kun and Ulic as well since even though they weren't mentioned have accolades like Kun being the strongest among the Ancient Sith.

Really, by "ancient sith" I think she's somewhat cherry picking from the best of a multi-thousand year period!


Most Hundred Year Darkness sith would likely fall to Sion, as would a good amount of the council under Ragnos, and such. But from a later timeframe, it's easy to say how great 'the ancient sith' were and refer to a tiny selection of badasses who were the best of their day.


Exar and Ulic wouldn't be among those counted as ancient, however- They're literally from during Traya's lifetime!

I thought she was mostly referring to the Golden Age.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I thought she was mostly referring to the Golden Age.


The "Golden Age" is itself a fairly nebulous term that often refers to much of the run of the Sith Empire, plus it is fairly likely she was lumping in the HYD ones...

I misread that as HTTYD and for a moment the fanfics stretched to eternity.