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New 52 Shiva.
No prep. No BFR.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/11/117763/2255460-karnak.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/2532/2713862-nightwing_014_09.jpg

Karnak.

**** the haters.

Karnak SHOULD win this.....

So, 4 stars and one vote for Karnak....

Shiva

I honestly wonder.
Dont think Karnak's as skilled, but his weak point strike power's no joke...

Karnak

i give it *****.

I bet you do!

Karnak

Karnak is more skilled.

His ability isn't inborn or something. He got that from meditating.

He can detect the impossible flaw in any plan, any power, anything. This isn't pressure points, this is beyond that.

Shiva can hit you and make you die a week later.

Shiva

Pretty even, response wise. Neat.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Shiva can hit you and make you die a week later.
And she can actually fight, unlike a certain Inhuman.

Seriously, the only way Karnak wins is if nu-Shiva is a total loser.

^

i haven't seen nu shiva. preboot would def take karnak out. like any really good street guy likely would.

How skillful IS Karnak?
Without his ability to detect/exploit weak points?
How would he rate then? Top 10? 20? 30?

hard to say it in those terms. imo (and they may vary) in terms of pure skill he...isn't great. certainly below guys like daredevil imo. i dunno. h2h i could see him being a good match against someone like punisher maybe? karnak just doesn't have a lot of feats and no real wins against any of the big guys. kind of the opposite actually--he usually gets his a$$ handed to him....

Karnak latest showing had him taking it to a small group of Avengers and busting through a cell built to hold the Hulk. He takes this.

i've not read the very latest avengers, but even if that is true, daredevil has taken it to the avengers and breaking sh!t is what his POWER is. finding a weakness in a structure is....what he SHOULD do. hitting a high level street guy/ma guy? wayyyy different and it's been shown that his skill level doesn't match up.

^^^Yeah the whole "brick not hit back" thing...

Originally posted by carver9
Karnak latest showing had him taking it to a small group of Avengers and busting through a cell built to hold the Hulk. He takes this.
Cell feat is irrelevant.

Widow and Tony were dumbed down to Rhino's level.

Who has Karnak beaten in HTH?

Originally posted by carver9
busting through a cell built to hold the Hulk.

This is all i see

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-drrKpXrVgog/U8Rayd1QDrI/AAAAAAAAEwk/NEeP-6GU8Yg/s1600/panther%2Band%2Bkarnak.jpg
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii265/scanscans/blz16al4.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/59221/2114718-8f43gpu.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/59221/1769319-576791_blz18_super.jpg

Grade A ass whooping right there

So Karnak has no good fighting feats?

Karnak is such a D-List character that he gets the jobber treatment. If written up to his potential, he could have been a contender. Sadly though, he isn't.

Shiva wins.

Karnak is Extremely skilled in HTH, without even counting his weak spot power, and as an Inhuman his physical states are well moreso than Shivas (bio states hes a bit above Capt America physically). Karnak would definitely take preboot Shiva, dont know anything about this new Shiva though.

That one hit KO from Panther is easily a very low showing for Karnak, and Id certainly pick BP over old Shiva as well.

Originally posted by DTM
Karnak is Extremely skilled in HTH, without even counting his weak spot power, and as an Inhuman his physical states are well moreso than Shivas (bio states hes a bit above Capt America physically). Karnak would definitely take preboot Shiva, dont know anything about this new Shiva though.

That one hit KO from Panther is easily a very low showing for Karnak, and Id certainly pick BP over old Shiva as well.

Seriously? Who has he beaten

Oh, Im not a huge expert on Karnaks fighting history, I just believe him to be physically superior to Shiva (who is normal human, to his Inhuman......pun intended), and as his main ability is HTH combat and how to exploit his foes weaknesses in HTH combat, that leads me to believe Karnak should beat Shiva in a fight.

Physical stats isn't really a problem. Shiva has gone toe to toe with Cass who is a legit bullet timer. She also owned Shadow dragon who had enhanced stats.

Cassie Cain is borderline superhuman in her speed and agility, sure, but Karnak is that, plus superhuman strength, toughness and endurance. Add in his world class fighting skills and pinpoint weakness power, he has more advantages against her than she does in return, IMO.

Yet he's been casually owned twice by tchalla

yeah, i'm not really buying the enhanced stats either, tbh. and even if he is enhanced to some degree, i don't think stats alone can be used to gauge how he'd do here. it's not like ma guys don't take on superhumans all the time or anything....

The whole pin point thing is good on paper but not in the actual comics

Sadly, I like the character, but has he ever won a fight?

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, i'm not really buying the enhanced stats either, tbh. and even if he is enhanced to some degree, i don't think stats alone can be used to gauge how he'd do here. it's not like ma guys don't take on superhumans all the time or anything....

If anything Prof's fights show how poor his combat skill is BECAUSE he's trained and is enhanced human in stats. I mean I know Black Panther is one of Marvel's top Street Level guys, but ****.

Originally posted by DTM
Oh, Im not a huge expert on Karnaks fighting history
It's painfully evident, yes.

Not seeing a lot to recommend Karnak as a top MA.
If he wins this its going to be on his superior physical stats and his power.

Ffs. His stats are nothing to write home about. Every Inhuman is supposed to be - slightly - superior to humans physically. Whether it means they surpass average OR peak human is not clear. Gets forgotten most of the time, anyway. A detail. No real feats backing it up.

Mutants are supposed to have higher stats, too... even without factoring in their powers... meh.

Never ever heard that about mutants, but i wont ask you for where it can be found; its not important here, and you seem to have trouble providing that kind of info...

He's right

Never heard it.
I might look it up eventually.

What so someone like Beak or Cyclops are above humans in strength?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What so someone like Beak or Cyclops are above humans in strength?
Not seeing it.
I actually looked up several entries on Cyclops, a mutant who's power is seperate from physical abilities.
From his first Marvel Universe Handbook entry on up. All are variations of "possesses the strength etc. of a man his age who engages in intensive physical exercise".
Now, is the average mutant character in better shape/stronger than the average guy on the street? Probably. Same way police, firemen, soldiers, sports athletes are.

But Karnak did correctly deduce that Black Panther's weak spots were his knees and his balls. His powers are uncanny, no human could do that. No wonder they call them... INHUMANS.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Ffs. His stats are nothing to write home about. Every Inhuman is supposed to be - slightly - superior to humans physically. Whether it means they surpass average OR peak human is not clear. Gets forgotten most of the time, anyway. A detail. No real feats backing it up.

Mutants are supposed to have higher stats, too... even without factoring in their powers... meh.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Ffs. His stats are nothing to write home about. Every Inhuman is supposed to be - slightly - superior to humans physically. Whether it means they surpass average OR peak human is not clear. Gets forgotten most of the time, anyway. A detail. No real feats backing it up.

Mutants are supposed to have higher stats, too... even without factoring in their powers... meh.
U sure all mutants are physically superior to normal humans?

I know Karnak for sure has always been described by Marvel as being superior to normal humans...

Anyways, I've seen nothing on the Karnak side that leads me to believe he can take a majority from Shiva on the regs.. I'm still sticking with Shiva.

He may be sure but he isnt correct.

Originally posted by riv6672
Not seeing it.
I actually looked up several entries on Cyclops, a mutant who's power is seperate from physical abilities.
From his first Marvel Universe Handbook entry on up. All are variations of "possesses the strength etc. of a man his age who engages in intensive physical exercise".
Now, is the average mutant character in better shape/stronger than the average guy on the street? Probably. Same way police, firemen, soldiers, sports athletes are.

I can buy there's an obscure reference that mutants are physically superior on average just for being mutants, but I agree the comics in general definitely don't reflect that. So if it does exist, the writers certainly are either ignorant of it, or flat-out ignore it.