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http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/dc-comics-pulls-batgirl-variant-cover-featuring-the-joker-after-online-protests-10114408.html

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2015/03/BG-Cv41-Joker-variant-solicitation-88c4e-31e8d-720x1092.jpg

It seem the Joker might not be allowed to kill female super heroes, because its RAPE! I wonder why there aren't more super heroines?

People are such idiots. Promotes rape culture? Lol, give me a f*cking break.

Shame on DC for allowing themselves to be e-bullied by some random online morons.

What were people going to do if they didn't change it; not buy the alternate cover?

It's not like all these whiners buy anything anyway. They're just looking for something to complain about. Also lol at "rape culture" reaching its way into comics and being a legitimate concern. Maybe if he had her bent over with his cock out.

And as per usual, the problem here is....


drumroll please...


The assholes who started threatening people for complaining, prompting the artist to ask it to be pulled:
Article
"Regardless if fans like Rafael Albuquerque’s homage to Alan Moore’s THE KILLING JOKE graphic novel from 25 years ago, or find it inconsistent with the current tonality of the Batgirl books - threats of violence and harassment are wrong and have no place in comics or society."

The anti-feminists in other words.

Once again, people don't seem to get that people are allowed to complain about things. It's not even the people complaining about how inappropriate it was that got it pulled (and it is true that you don't really see male covers like that, and how every other Joker cover was jokey except for this one, and it's completely at odds with the tone of the book), it's actually the people who couldn't handle the complaints and decided to threaten them.


The anti-feminists prove themselves time and time again to be the big assholes who act worse than what they complain about.


It's the artist himself who wanted it withdrawn, it's not censorship or similar that you'll no doubt people here, and things only really got out of hand when the anti-feminist brigade decided to escalate things, which got both DC and artist annoyed with them.

I'm honestly wary about there being any major threats, tbh.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm honestly wary about there being any major threats, tbh.

Both the artist and DC thought people were out of line. Whether or not you consider it 'major,' the people who's call it is do.



This is kinda like a smaller version of gamergate- you know, the 'some assholes get annoyed at small-time feminist game developers, attack everyone in sight for months.'

Fortunately comics isn't as bad as video games, but still, that's where the real problem lies.


Our job, as comic fans, should be to stand up and say, "Hey assholes! Stop threatening comic fans for not liking a cover! You're the problem here!".

Oh hey!

Someone did a cool Superman version, to illustrate how we don't really get this kind of victimization-image with male heroes. I've certainly never seen a cover like that! Even if they're beaten or afraid or captured, the context is usually a lot different.

And A fan edit that a number of people seem to like, side by side with the original, that recontextualizes it a bit.

Originally posted by Q99
Both the artist and DC thought people were out of line. Whether or not you consider it 'major,' the people who's call it is do.



This is kinda like a smaller version of gamergate- you know, the 'some assholes get annoyed at small-time feminist game developers, attack everyone in sight for months.'

Fortunately comics isn't as bad as video games, but still, that's where the real problem lies.


Our job, as comic fans, should be to stand up and say, "Hey assholes! Stop threatening comic fans for not liking a cover! You're the problem here!".

Given the writer's behaviour of late, I wouldn't consider him a credible source.

I don't agree that was what Gamergate was about either, but that's another subject for another time.

People are allowed to not like the cover. That's their right. Acting like the cover is some sort of attack on feminism is bollocks though, imo.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh hey!

Someone did a cool Superman version, to illustrate how we don't really get this kind of victimization-image with male heroes. I've certainly never seen a cover like that! Even if they're beaten or afraid or captured, the context is usually a lot different.

And A fan edit that a number of people seem to like, side by side with the original, that recontextualizes it a bit.

lol, male heroes are shown in peril constantly. especially batman.

Q99 is right, at least as far as the article indicates. It appears the threats made against the "feminists"(the article technically made no mention of feminists) were what got the artist to request the change.

I don't think the Superman/Doomsday picture is a good example of a reversal though, as it is doesn't actually relate to anything with those characters. It's not that he's male, but he's Superman and that is Doomsday. Those poses are a situation they'd never be in.

I wouldn't expect to see Wonder Woman in that pose either....cuz she's Wonder Woman. Not a frightened little girl.

I say DC should pull all Female books for a month and put a poll up

A.) Female Superheroes are put in dangerous situations
Or
B.) Keep Female Superheroes at home.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Given the writer's behaviour of late, I wouldn't consider him a credible source.

What, the artist? The artist who made it? Isn't a credible source on his own feelings on the subject? Or DC, who's statement is also clear?



Well, it is. It may try and present itself as otherwise, but that's what every third-party investigation who tries to look into GG and find out what it's really out finds muck-loads of harassment.




So? Threatening them for it is still totally out of line.

The op may have been written as 'let's complain about these feminists,' but the reality of the situation is 'people complaining about people who had a problem with it started threatening and harassing people until the artist and DC said, "HEY, Not cool!" '.

As per normal, the actual complaints may or may not make the company care, and it's up to the company to listen, but it's those who didn't like the complaints where things got out of hand.




Peril, yes. Batgirl being in *peril* is no problem, the main cover that has no complaints has a crosshair on her head.

However, defiant, or fighting back, or about to be rescued is what heroes tend to be in.


How often has Batman been shown in a villain's arm, crying? Not, like, crying over failing to save someone, but in a situation like this one.

Teen sidekicks are always more emotional.

They should put Batgirl in the kitchen, maybe this would please them more.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Teen sidekicks are always more emotional.


Yea, and even *then*, you always see the calvary coming in on the page to save them.



---

Heck, one thing I want to emphasize: This is a Killing Joke reference. In the Killing Joke, Joker shoots Barbara and takes sexualized pictures of her, directly because Moore wanted to make people uncomfortable with a female character being victimized and sexualized, like, as a direct narrative thrust, that was his actual goal. And now people are seeing a reference to that... on a comic currently trying to aim itself to younger female readers, quite light-hearted, a break from the prior dark run, and at the same time every other Joker cover is of a different, usually much much more light-hearted sort that would fit.


It'd actually fit somewhat in the prior run, which was much darker, or if it'd been a *horror* month, it'd probably fit there, but if you just try and recruit a bunch of young adult female readers, don't be surprised if a cover based on a work that was specifically aimed by a master to victimize a young adult female character, and uniquely singled out next to the other books which get light-hearted comedic joker, or just Joker on his own, does not make them happy!

And if they are not happy and let it known, don't threaten them for it! Or even act like it's odd.

And if they are attacked for it, don't try blaming them for the problem. DC gave mixed signals (minor issue), and assholes threatened people (big issue). That's where the problem lies.


Here's the others for reference

Originally posted by Q99
And if they are not happy and let it known, don't threaten them for it! Or even act like it's odd.

And if they are attacked for it, don't try blaming them for the problem. DC gave mixed signals (minor issue), and assholes threatened people (big issue). That's where the problem lies.

Originally posted by Q99
What, the artist? The artist who made it? Isn't a credible source on his own feelings on the subject? Or DC, who's statement is also clear?

No, Cameron Stewart, the writer.

if he had simply said about the book that it was not matching the tone of the series that he was trying to write (and tbh, it's been shit, but that's something else entirely), and left it at that, I never would have had a problem with.

given how often this shit is cried wolf, i'm hesitant, yes. if I see a source that actually shows a death threat, then i'll change my tune.



you mean all the hit-pieces done by people afraid to call a woman (or a man associated with a woman) on their bullshit without being branded a misogynist?

I'm not snapping, btw, even if it seems that way. I'm just tired of people acting like the GGers are some sort of awful bogeymen when the anti side is just as bad if not worse, and will use any excuse to pardon their own ethically bankrupt behaviour.

you can't say on one hand that gaming is the most inclusive it's ever been, that so many women play games now, and then on the other say it's nothing but misogynist racists.

but I digress.



Yes, it is. Nobody deserves to be threatened for what is basically a harmless opinion. Just like me not agreeing with you doesn't mean i'm going to threaten you over it. We're just people on each other's screens.



Again, I don't necessarily agree, because this kind of censorship can set a worrying trend. People who like the cover and dislike DC's decision have as much right to complain as those that don't like the cover, whatever their reasons.

Still not saying threats are justified, though.



Come on. How many times have you seen a cover where a male is tied up, his hands behind his back, his hips thrust forward so his crotch dominates the figure? That's not defiant or fighting back. That's straight up ready to be anally raped. Sure, there are covers with defiant males, but there are plenty of ones with weak or terrified males too. A few of which actually feature the Joker with Batman and Azrael.



So is it the crying, then? Is that the problem? Or that she's just afraid? I'm genuinely asking.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying there's no sexism in comics. I'm not saying female characters aren't sexualised. They are. I'm just saying men are too. maybe not to the same extent, but still to the extent that we get shit like that magic mike cover not so long ago.

Edit: Possibly shitty spelling in places. Apologies.

I guess my problem with the comparisons to Batman/Superman/etc, is that I don't see that as an issue of gender. Q99 is comparing the full fledged heros, who readers expect to be defiant until the end regardless of their gender, to the child side-kicks, who readers expect can crack when the stakes get high enough. I wouldn't expect Black Canary to cry in Batgirl's situation either.

Gender representation is not equal obviously, but is comparing Batgirl's cover to Batman or Superman fair? Shouldn't we look at the male heroes-in-training?

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
I say DC should pull all Female books for a month and put a poll up

A.) Female Superheroes are put in dangerous situations
Or
B.) Keep Female Superheroes at home.



Ah, but when complaining, do you
A) Speak entirely in fallacies of the excluded middle?
or
B) Don't complain about anything ever again?


Clearly, 'peril' is not the complained when the main cover has crosshairs on Batgirl's head, Wonder Woman's has a bomb on it, and so on.


Originally posted by -Pr-
No, Cameron Stewart, the writer.

if he had simply said about the book that it was not matching the tone of the series that he was trying to write (and tbh, it's been shit, but that's something else entirely), and left it at that, I never would have had a problem with.

given how often this shit is cried wolf, i'm hesitant, yes. if I see a source that actually shows a death threat, then i'll change my tune.


Ah, if only there wasn't a history of a major movement calling "It's fake!" whenever there was a real threat in recent memory.

Frankly, the 'it's fake' call has lost credibility. Not with the parade of proven threats on just this sort of issue.


And it's DC calling out threats and harassment. So.




Please. BBC, Boston Globe, etc.?

Calling GG on it's bullshit is not the same as being afraid to call a woman on hers.


A Boston Globe reporter talked to Gamergaters trying to find the 'good' core, and whereever he went, he found victim blaming, people calling for people to do stuff about the targets, Kohaku in Action once having *every* thread on the front page devoted to attacking someone, etc. etc..

"Oh, the entire outside world is just biased..." is normally a sign that it's not the outside world that's biased.





The anti side isn't just as bad or worse. Not if you compare the big names of each, or the biggest actions.

Milo laughed when Brianna Wu's dog died. Roguestar encourages doxxing (and most of the GG harassment patrol, back when they had one, has Roguestar avatars). A couple more are openly sexist. The members of the Sarkeesian effect just split up over one of them supporting Roosh V, pickup artist scumbag. The owner of 8chan is a GGer and openly complained about having to take down bomb threats against people against GG. The owner of 8chan's attack board /baph/ which has a guide on ruining lives is a GGer.

Anita Sarkeesian has... done nothing of the sort. Nor Brianna Wu, nor Wil Wheaton, nor Zoe Quinn. There is no equivalent to /baph/ or 8chan that's opposed to GG, and baph doesn't go after GG members, just GG's targets.

There have been no SWATTINGs of GGers. There's been multiple of people against it. No-one has received sustained harassment like Anita has, including both bomb and gun threats.

Also? 'Anti' is not a group that got together, they're just anyone opposed, often because GG going after them. If you're targeted, you can't help but be anti. If you are in it *purely* to be against harassment, you can't help but be anti. You don't need to know anyone else against it, you didn't chose to take on any banner, you are not choosing to be associated with a group like the converse, and you may not even have a choice in the matter.


That's the thing. The big names act in entirely dissimilar ways between the two sides, and one's only arguably a side to begin with.

The whole 'but we're equivalent, really' thing is part of how they get away with as much as they do. People love to push both-sides-are-bad narratives, but one side is, often, materially worse.





Gamergate isn't gaming.

Gamergate is misogynist racists. It's also maybe 10-20k people, while gaming is hundreds of millions.


Gamergate, like the name ironically implies, is gaming's scandal. Not the scandals they attack people about, they themselves are the scandal. They attack gamers, are anti a sizable number of game designers, and major game and tech companies like Blizzard and Intel are against them. I went to a sizable gaming convention and encountered *zero* gamergates out of the people I talked to.

Gamergate tries to conflate itself as gaming, but it's not.


Gamers are awesome. They're the ones that are being attacked by GG, and who GG is trying to hide behind.


And GG is seriously giving us gamers a bad name in academia, the media, the outside world... you name it, just at a time when people were beginning to take gamers more seriously. So, way to hurt gaming, GG. You suck forever.





Except, that's not censorship.

Asking someone to not do something when you don't have the power to force it- and when you are the audience, even- is not censorship if they hare not in any position to command it, merely request it.


This is comic fans, readers of Batgirl, who's aimed at a young female audience, saying, "Hey, we don't want that!"

And then DC, or any company, can judge and say, "Hm, we will/won't do that."


It's no different than people saying, "Stop put out crap like (Civil War/The Clone Saga/Hal Jordan's death/Spider-man's marriage/whatever people don't like)!". It has no compulsion, it's people saying what they want/don't want and the company can chose to listen one way or another.


And then people are trying to silence them with threats for it, which is much closer to actual censorship.


Trying to frame this as censorship waters down the term. If this was un-sexism related, if it was just a really junk cover, no-one would be crying censorship that it got pulled.









What?

Uh... ok, I'm going to need an example of what you're talking about, that's a new one on me!

If there are examples of men being anally raped, that does sound like a better counterpart.



Weak and terrified, yes. Crying, helpless at a villain's mercy, with no help in sight (the 'one character is in danger, a friend is there to help,' is an old standby, since of course it implies they'll get free), and in a reference to a sexualized story?

I'd like an example.





Fear on it's own is fine. Pretty normal. Cringing from an off-page menance is another classic. Terrified crying like this while the villain has them at mercy, captured, and there's no calvary coming, smearing fluid over the hero's lips or some equivalent action, is unusual.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I guess my problem with the comparisons to Batman/Superman/etc, is that I don't see that as an issue of gender. Q99 is comparing the full fledged heros, who readers expect to be defiant until the end regardless of their gender, to the child side-kicks, who readers expect can crack when the stakes get high enough. I wouldn't expect Black Canary to cry in Batgirl's situation either.

Gender representation is not equal obviously, but is comparing Batgirl's cover to Batman or Superman fair? Shouldn't we look at the male heroes-in-training?

Batgirl's a solo hero and has been for a long time, though.


And 'try to find male equivalents' strikes me as a good thing to try anyway. Succeed or fail, it adds to the discussion.

Maybe there's just some I- and the other people who have issues with it- don't know about!

I don't think they're *common* in any case. I can't even remember Robin having a cover like this.

I just realised you and I aren't going to agree on anything, so not going to drag this out any longer than it has to.

I would implore you though, to PLEASE read up on GG and see what the Anti side are doing. And you can say that they aren't a cohesive group if you like, but the same can be said about GG.

This horrible, one-sided demonising is not helping anyone, and it just makes people pick sides when they should be working together.

I'm not going to say I found what you said offensive, but please, read up on the subject some more.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I just realised you and I aren't going to agree on anything, so not going to drag this out any longer than it has to.

I would implore you though, to PLEASE read up on GG and see what the Anti side are doing. And you can say that they aren't a cohesive group if you like, but the same can be said about GG.

One, I have looked up GG, a lot. That's the issue. And the 'antis'. The big names against it are engaging in... zero harassment. There's been some attacks on the side by isolated actors (and not as bad as the GG attacks), but no-one who has major support has supported them.

Two, GG is a banner people willingly chose to use, and GG does have a choice in who it supports, and yet the most supported named tend to be pro-harassment.


GG often says 'do more research,' but it pretty much boils down to 'keep on looking at what we say until you agree with us.' The research fairly heavily comes down on one side.


The research paints a very, very poor picture of GG, but paints a much rosier one of many who oppose it. Tell me when GG gets a Wil Wheaton.



Look, if you support a harassment movement, you can just stop. And being against it does help support those against a harassment movement.


GG keeps on attacking people. It's not interesting in not attacking certain people. As long as it keeps doing that, people'll be against it.

This is not complex, PR, and it's not both side's fault, it's the fault of their own actions and who they support.





I have, for months. That's the problem.

I suggest you do, and from non-GG sources, and without writing off anything against them as a 'hit piece.'


Gamergate is not gaming. It has seriously hurt the image of gaming, which I love, and attacked gamers, game makers, and people who have not attacked anyone, and done so for months without end and view being called on doing just that as a reason to continue on against said targets.



And back on this topic, they're also part of why people claim "The feminists are the problem!" have so little credibility. Ya start one movement targeting many people based on false pretenses and now everyone looking to attack similar people in different areas with similar rhetoric will suffer by association.

I disagree with pretty much everything you said, but you knew that. For you to be so dismissive, and so... I don't even know the word to use.

You know, I can admit that seeing a lot of the shit that comes off tumblr does make me a bit cynical, but I honestly never expected to find that kind of stuff here. For you to show such blatant disregard for the actual facts while claiming to show them... I honestly thought you were better than that, I guess.

I honestly dunno what to say. Kind of lost interest in participating in the thread, tbh. shrug

Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift


Jesus Christ.

Apologies if I seemed at all melodramatic.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Apologies if I seemed at all melodramatic. Not you.

I just think it's hilarious to demonize a movement based on the top "figures" not being overly aggressive when the "minions" are just as bad or worse than the opposition. Even though the figureheads lie about bomb threats or attack themselves unknowingly when they're still signed in. Among other things. They design their words to try and drum up threats.

I remember when there were death threats against a 10 year old for having an opinion. There's lots of that shit from the SJWs. All it is threats now and swearing at people for nothing.

It's stupid. For that matter actually having a side is stupid. Both sides are dumb. But at least one side isn't shaped under cult rules and wants to change everything to suit their needs. People don't have to walk on eggshells so they don't offend everyone with what was meant to just be an innocent post.

I'd rather have developers have free reign to create whatever they want than to have them get shamed into doing what the "fans" want. Look at Bioware for example. All they do is pander to the sjws and they still get shit on by them.

But I digress. This is stupid. Changing shit because of whiners is dumb. That Spider Woman cover for example was hilarious due to the hate it recieved. I don't even get how that is where the line is drawn.

I can't stand people who think something (especially art, or something similarly subjective) ought to be changed because they don't like it.

Don't like the cover? Cool, don't buy it. I just can't figure out why this culture of whining has become so prevalent.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
I can't stand people who think something (especially art, or something similarly subjective) ought to be changed because they don't like it.

Don't like the cover? Cool, don't buy it. I just can't figure out why this culture of whining has become so prevalent. Your sig promotes abortions and being lord of a group. Change it you ****ing shitlord before I come to your house and slit your throat.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Not you.

I just think it's hilarious to demonize a movement based on the top "figures" not being overly aggressive when the "minions" are just as bad or worse than the opposition. Even though the figureheads lie about bomb threats or attack themselves unknowingly when they're still signed in. Among other things. They design their words to try and drum up threats.

I remember when there were death threats against a 10 year old for having an opinion. There's lots of that shit from the SJWs. All it is threats now and swearing at people for nothing.

It's stupid. For that matter actually having a side is stupid. Both sides are dumb. But at least one side isn't shaped under cult rules and wants to change everything to suit their needs. People don't have to walk on eggshells so they don't offend everyone with what was meant to just be an innocent post.

I'd rather have developers have free reign to create whatever they want than to have them get shamed into doing what the "fans" want. Look at Bioware for example. All they do is pander to the sjws and they still get shit on by them.

But I digress. This is stupid. Changing shit because of whiners is dumb. That Spider Woman cover for example was hilarious due to the hate it recieved. I don't even get how that is where the line is drawn.

I agree with everything you said.

I was just getting to the point where I knew I was going to stop filtering my language, and I don't want to be THAT guy.

I get that I may seem intense at times, but that's usually only because I feel strongly about certain things. Not because I genuinely am shouting at someone like I want to silence them.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Your sig promotes abortions and being lord of a group. Change it you ****ing shitlord before I come to your house and slit your throat.

Oh shit. *changes everything* Trigger warning!!

Originally posted by Q99
Batgirl's a solo hero and has been for a long time, though.

And 'try to find male equivalents' strikes me as a good thing to try anyway. Succeed or fail, it adds to the discussion.

Maybe there's just some I- and the other people who have issues with it- don't know about!

I don't think they're *common* in any case. I can't even remember Robin having a cover like this.
True, although it seems like the shadow of the "real" hero hangs over her in the same way it does practically every spin off. Maybe that changed, as I didn't follow her for long.

For the record, I'm agreeing with you and I don't know any male(even the young ones) equivalents. I can't remember Robin having a similar cover. I just think that point is better illustrated by highlighting that, rather than people focusing on Batman/Superman. Feels like there's larger factors than gender at play there.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I agree with everything you said.

I was just getting to the point where I knew I was going to stop filtering my language, and I don't want to be THAT guy.

I get that I may seem intense at times, but that's usually only because I feel strongly about certain things. Not because I genuinely am shouting at someone like I want to silence them. Meh this is like the first time I've ever really talked about it. It's really too stupid to actually discuss. If people don't see that the sjw side has rampant threats as well and are actually good people then there's no point.

Not everyone of course but that goes both ways. There's no high ground on either side, just one doesn't annoy as much.

As someone who doesn't care about either though, The Sjw is much more annoying because it potentially destroys two of my favorite things, gaming and comics. I don't give a shit if some no names trying to build fame via getting attacked get attacked. I don't care if some 10 year old gets attacked for liking Dead or Alive. What I don't like is when "fans" attack developers in droves for not abiding to their own personal ideals.

I don't want every game to be about gay dudes and trannies and the white man is evil. I want games to be made with the same freedom they had before 2012ish.

srug

Originally posted by StyleTime
True, although it seems like the shadow of the "real" hero hangs over her in the same way it does practically every spin off. Maybe that changed, as I didn't follow her for long.

For the record, I'm agreeing with you and I don't know any male(even the young ones) equivalents. I can't remember Robin having a similar cover. I just think that point is better illustrated by highlighting that, rather than people focusing on Batman/Superman. Feels like there's larger factors than gender at play there. Robin has been featured on some of the most embarrassing covers in history. Which should come natural to a guy who wears panties

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Meh this is like the first time I've ever really talked about it. It's really too stupid to actually discuss. If people don't see that the sjw side has rampant threats as well and are actually good people then there's no point.

Not everyone of course but that goes both ways. There's no high ground on either side, just one doesn't annoy as much.

As someone who doesn't care about either though, The Sjw is much more annoying because it potentially destroys two of my favorite things, gaming and comics. I don't give a shit if some no names trying to build fame via getting attacked get attacked. I don't care if some 10 year old gets attacked for liking Dead or Alive. What I don't like is when "fans" attack developers in droves for not abiding to their own personal ideals.

I don't want every game to be about gay dudes and trannies and the white man is evil. I want games to be made with the same freedom they had before 2012ish.

srug

Agreed. I'm all for making more games/comics with more diversity so that everyone can feel like they have a choice.

Just don't take choices away from the people who helped build the industry in the first place. There IS room for both.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Robin has been featured on some of the most embarrassing covers in history. Which should come natural to a guy who wears panties

Anyone remember when DC let a fan vote decide that Robin would die in one of the most brutal beatings a hero has ever suffered?

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
I can't stand people who think something (especially art, or something similarly subjective) ought to be changed because they don't like it.

Don't like the cover? Cool, don't buy it. I just can't figure out why this culture of whining has become so prevalent.
Well, it's a good way to get your voice heard. I don't see anything expressing discontent if you feel x group is under-represented or presented in a problematic way.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I don't want every game to be about gay dudes and trannies and the white man is evil. I want games to be made with the same freedom they had before 2012ish.

srug
Meh, the problem then is that "freedom" becomes this.

http://s30.postimg.org/tbpkh3pz1/whitemaleprotagonists.jpg

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, it's a good way to get your voice heard. I don't see anything expressing discontent if you feel x group is under-represented or presented in a problematic way.

Meh, the problem then is that "freedom" becomes this.

http://s30.postimg.org/tbpkh3pz1/whitemaleprotagonists.jpg

Stuff like that is why we need more character creators in games.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Agreed. I'm all for making more games/comics with more diversity so that everyone can feel like they have a choice.

Just don't take choices away from the people who helped build the industry in the first place. There IS room for both.

If diversity is needed, it should come naturally, not due to shaming the industry.

If a guy wants to make a game about asian gay guys having sex with brown trannies and that becomes the next thing in games then that should without attacking the people who make games. It shouldn't be forced on people.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift


If diversity is needed, it should come naturally, not due to shaming the industry.

If a guy wants to make a game about asian gay guys having sex with brown trannies and that becomes the next thing in games then that should without attacking the people who make games. It shouldn't be forced on people.

Especially when a person's natural reaction is to push back against such things.

If you weren't so cheesaphobic, then we'd get along quite fine pr.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, it's a good way to get your voice heard. I don't see anything expressing discontent if you feel x group is under-represented or presented in a problematic way.

Meh, the problem then is that "freedom" becomes this.

http://s30.postimg.org/tbpkh3pz1/whitemaleprotagonists.jpg Yes. 20 white men out of thousands of games is a real issue. **** freedom, change it.

Golly gee, look! Batman's at the Joker's mercy!
http://i.imgur.com/zrqBLA1m.jpg

Originally posted by Q99
Well, it is. It may try and present itself as otherwise, but that's what every third-party investigation who tries to look into GG and find out what it's really out finds muck-loads of harassment.
That's bullshit, just about every single bit of harrassment has checked out as somethingawful goonsquad members....

On the other hand I've been threatened by Antis for retweeing stuff and I've seen countless death-threats, flame-posts, etc from the anti side. When the developer Grimachu tried to commit suicide because of his depression Antis were laughing at him the next time and telling him to do it again.

I've been visiting GG several times a week since early September and I've never seen any kind of death threats. I've seen persistent debating and arguing, but mostly I've seen ordinary people argue with sad armchair activists (like yourself).

Whining little SJWs like you is why we have creators shoehorning in shitty minority characters everywhere.

PS, you're not activists or feminists or anything of the like. You're opportunists living soft lives and your crusade is an insult to -real- feminists.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, it's a good way to get your voice heard. I don't see anything expressing discontent if you feel x group is under-represented or presented in a problematic way.

Meh, the problem then is that "freedom" becomes this.

http://s30.postimg.org/tbpkh3pz1/whitemaleprotagonists.jpg

Don't come in here with your phucking meme trash with characters from 10 year old games.

And **** those who want to try and portray video-games as some shit medium with only white guys and machineguns.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
If you weren't so cheesaphobic, then we'd get along quite fine pr.

Yes. 20 white men out of thousands of games is a real issue. **** freedom, change it.

I'm sorry. If only I could.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Robin has been featured on some of the most embarrassing covers in history. Which should come natural to a guy who wears panties


Although yeah, the "outrage" wasn't simply at the embarassment. They legitimately thought it supported rape culture. I don't agree and the Batgirl cover didn't bother me, but I don't care that it's being changed.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Stuff like that is why we need more character creators in games.
Those are great. I think we need new properties with non-conventional protagonists too.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yes. 20 white men out of thousands of games is a real issue. **** freedom, change it.
Your post was an exaggerated stance no one holds(I'll admit I laughed though), so I answered with an exaggerated(possibly less so) response.
Originally posted by krisblaze
**** this.

And **** those who want to try and portray video-games as some shit medium with only white guys and machineguns.
It was a snap shot of mainstream gaming. No one said this makes the medium shit. I loved several of those games personally.

Originally posted by StyleTime
It was a snap shot of mainstream gaming. No one said this makes the medium shit.
It's not mainstream gaming and it's oudated.

Dead Rising was never mainstream gaming.

Posting pictures of men from games where you can choose your own gender

Look at the games up for GOTY this year. DA:I, Bayonetta, DS2, Shadow of Mordor, Destiny, Alien, even Hearthstone.

These aren't all games where you're just some white guy, and it's bullshit for you to come here with your shit meme from 2006 and try to claim otherwise.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Those are great. I think we need new properties with non-conventional protagonists too.

Sure. Just don't make them replace series' that people already play regularly.

Originally posted by krisblaze
It's not mainstream gaming and it's oudated.

Dead Rising was never mainstream gaming.

Posting pictures of men from games where you can choose your own gender

Look at the games up for GOTY this year. DA:I, Bayonetta, DS2, Shadow of Mordor, Destiny, Alien, even Hearthstone.

These aren't all games where you're just some white guy, and it's bullshit for you to come here with your shit meme from 2006 and try to claim otherwise.

Eh, to be fair, white men are still more represented in games than any other gender/colour.

It's just retarded when people say there are no good female protagonists. There are plenty.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Eh, to be fair, white men are still more represented in games than any other gender/colour.

It's just retarded when people say there are no good female protagonists. There are plenty.
Sure, they are.

Because game developers are primarily white middle-aged men, and because that's been the traditional audience.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Sure, they are.

Because game developers are primarily white middle-aged men, and because that's been the traditional audience.

No argument from me.

Just saying there's room for all sorts.

Originally posted by krisblaze
It's not mainstream gaming and it's oudated.

Dead Rising was never mainstream gaming.

Posting pictures of men from games where you can choose your own gender

Look at the games up for GOTY this year. DA:I, Bayonetta, DS2, Shadow of Mordor, Destiny, Alien, even Hearthstone.

These aren't all games where you're just some white guy, and it's bullshit for you to come here with your shit meme from 2006 and try to claim otherwise.
Dead Rising is mainstream, and it was an awesome game to boot.

Also, I said "was" a snapshot. Not like the pic is totally irrelevant regardless.

I've played most of those already, and I am not sure what you're point is there.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Sure. Just don't make them replace series' that people already play regularly.
I agree. I wouldn't ask someone to make Alan Wake Chinese out of nowehere or something.
Originally posted by -Pr-

Just saying there's room for all sorts.

Originally posted by -Pr-
No argument from me.

Just saying there's room for all sorts.

Yeah, and there has been for many years.

But people get caught up in this one narrative and don't consider anything outside "them evil white privileged men!"

Originally posted by StyleTime
Dead Rising is mainstream, and it was an awesome game to boot.

Also, I said "was" a snapshot. Not like the pic is totally irrelevant regardless.

I've played most of those already, and I am not sure what you're point is there.
Bullshit, that's not "all you was saying".

You've got a picture of male shepard claiming it's an example of videogame characters all being white?

Phuck that.

Let's look at the top xbox games on metacritic the last couple of years. DS 1 and 2, Skyrim, Mass Effect 2 and 3, GTA 5.

5 of these have a female option! Same at this years top games and last years top games.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Dead Rising is mainstream


It is?

doesn't feel like it to me compared to something like Minecraft.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Yeah, and there has been for many years.

But people get caught up in this one narrative and don't consider anything outside "them evil white privileged men!"
No, that would be you being defensive. No one said the white men involved, either as characters or developers, are evil.
Originally posted by Kazenji
It is?

doesn't feel like it to me compared to something like Minecraft.
They could both be. I mean, what are we calling mainstream here?

Dead Rising only made a few hundred k sales last I checked.

Way above estimate but in no way "mainstream".

Originally posted by StyleTime
No, that would be you being defensive. No one said the white men involved, either as characters or developers, are evil.
I was referring more to the narrative forced by those who generally propogate "all main characters are white 30 something males" bullshit.

No one here's made that claim

Something that everyone knows & likes.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Dead Rising only made a few hundred k sales last I checked.

Way above estimate but in no way "mainstream".

I was referring more to the narrative forced by those who generally propogate "all main characters are white 30 something males" bullshit.

No one here's made that claim
I guess I am considering how recognized the product is. Walk into a room of gamers, and everyone knows what Dead Rising is, even if they don't play. Compare that with like....I don't know some indy game like Hydrophobia or Dishwasher: Vampire Smile.

Well, I think the humor gets lost sometimes in discussions like these. The meme is supposed to be a joke that highlights a real issue. They have to go to the extreme to make it funny.
Originally posted by Kazenji
Something that everyone knows & likes.
Do you mean gamers or the world as a whole? If we're talking people in general, then only stuff like Mario is actually mainstream.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I guess I am considering how recognized the product is. Walk into a room of gamers, and everone knows what Dead Rising is, even if they don't play. Compare that with like....I don't know some indy game like Hydrophobia or Dishwasher: Vampire Smile.
Hydrophobia doesn't have the exposure but probably sold more individual units than Dead Rising because of steam sales

Like you say though, well known to some, not to others.

But there is very little brand recognition to dead rising. Frank West is not a particularly well known main character.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, I think the humor gets lost sometimes in discussions like these. The meme is supposed to be a joke that highlights a real issue. They have to go to the extreme to make it funny.
I've seen it used too many times in serious discussions I think

Originally posted by krisblaze
Hydrophobia doesn't have the exposure but probably sold more individual units than Dead Rising because of steam sales



No surprise there when the first game was only console exclusive.

I hate you all. I loved Dead Rising

Originally posted by StyleTime
I hate you all. I loved Dead Rising
I only played the first.

It was good

Spawned lots of good porn.

Don't hate me

i too like Dead Rising....haven't played the latest one.

****! I just realized that Bran and Pr said everything I wanted to say

If dev's want to make every game from now until the end of time feature a white male in the lead that's their damned right to do so. The fact that people think that they have the right to tell a developer who the protagonist of a game that they aren't making, and have no stake in, should be, is kind of gross.

Everytime I see a cover with people in prison I think it encourages prison rape. Let's burn Didio's house for publishing that shit.

Originally posted by krisblaze
And **** those who want to try and portray video-games as some shit medium with only white guys and machineguns.

I thought that's what non-Nintendo console gaming was.

Bentley give me 3 or 4 club Nintendo codes.

Originally posted by Bentley

I thought that's what non-Nintendo console gaming was.

Yeah....when a game such as Madworld got released for the Wii, Makes sense.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
If dev's want to make every game from now until the end of time feature a white male in the lead that's their damned right to do so. The fact that people think that they have the right to tell a developer who the protagonist of a game that they aren't making, and have no stake in, should be, is kind of gross.
The developers do have that right. The public also has the right to ask them to change. These aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Bentley give me 3 or 4 club Nintendo codes.

They aren't compatible between regions, you in Europe?

(Regionlock for the loss)

Originally posted by Kazenji
Yeah....when a game such as Madworld got released for the Wii, Makes sense.

Mario games are racist because the hero is always italian. I want a romani plumber next time.

Well shit. lol at them region locking the codes though.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Well shit. lol at them region locking the codes though.

God damn nintenjews.

I can't move my BW pokemon into the pokebank because I have a japanese BW...and they claimed the DS was region-free.

Originally posted by StyleTime
The developers do have that right. The public also has the right to ask them to change. These aren't mutually exclusive concepts.
Indeed.

But that's not really relevant when people who have no clue about videogames or insight into the industry try to paint it as some little boys club where all the protagonists are white 30 somethings.

And people certainly shouldn't be able to strongarm developers or blacklist them for not having a particular character in their games.

What bothers me about the original cover is that Batgirl's emotional reaction seems wrong: I can't picture that someone like her, who's faced danger so many times before, would react in the depicted fashion (the "corrected" cover, where she's angry, seems much more in character).

As for the feminists: they have the right to complain, but hey, if you want more female superheroes, this is what can come with that territory. Get perspective and stop projecting your political agenda (I wonder if these are the same feminists who got pissed when Ms. Nevada suggested women learn how to defend themselves).

As for DC: for shame that you buckled.

^It annoys me that we had very little outcry during the truly bad years of the 90s, but we're seeing this nonsense about covers that are little more than homages to other work....

Wtf is I don't even think joker is in to rape

Originally posted by krisblaze
But that's not really relevant when people who have no clue about videogames or insight into the industry try to paint it as some little boys club where all the protagonists are white 30 somethings.

And people certainly shouldn't be able to strongarm developers or blacklist them for not having a particular character in their games.
Well, it shouldn't be difficult to shoot them down if they're wrong though. If it isn't a boys club, you'd do better simply showing them counter examples. The "you're an outsider" defense raises red flags to most people(rightfully so, I'd argue).

I haven't seen the strongarming personally. People have to present an argument for or against something when they see a problem.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, it shouldn't be difficult to shoot them down if they're wrong though. If it isn't a boys club, you'd do better simply showing them counter examples. The "you're an outsider" defense raises red flags to most people(rightfully so, I'd argue).

I just gave you 10 examples. Examples of the most critically lauded and commercially successful games.

Hell, even GTA which gets a lot of shit still had a black guy in GTA SA and 5.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I haven't seen the strongarming personally. People have to present an argument for or against something when they see a problem.

Meh, you don't know the state of the industry.

Originally posted by Spawningpool
Wtf is I don't even think joker is in to rape

if it's the right person, I wouldn't put it past him tbh. As dark as It might seem, his obsession with Batman leaves little that he wouldn't do, imo.

Originally posted by krisblaze
I just gave you 10 examples. Examples of the most critically lauded and commercially successful games. Hell, even GTA which gets a lot of shit still had a black guy in GTA SA and 5.


Meh, you don't know the state of the industry.
I was speaking more in general, as usually there is just a rage response. Regardless, I already voiced typical concerns there, and there's more( the various character creation games being marketed with clear indicators of a certain protagonist, problematic representations, the fact that many of the games you dismissed are still relevant) but I think we're off topic at this point. Might visit the games forum later or something. I do applaud positive changes though, so don't think this is a complete dismissal of what you're saying.

I disagree. You just interpret things differently.

After thinking it over, I have to agree the cover is at the very least sexist and bias, if not offensive. Show me a cover where the male hero is weeping, fearful and helpless like this one, and I'll be convinced there's a parallel. Simple jeopardy isn't enough.

It's doubly loaded because of the twisted past history between Barbara Gordon and the Joker. It's because of the sick events in 1988's The Killing Joke (also that same year, Green Lantern Katma Tui got murdered in a sick fashion), that was how DC got the discussion going about the 'Women In Refrigerators' syndrome in comics - the name finally getting coined after Kyle Rayner's girlfriend got murdered some years later and shoved in his fridge. After all these years, either DC hasn't learned or they are just provoking for controversy and sales. I mean, they have turned Harley Quinn into an anti-hero after years of accusations they were promoting battered women's syndrome, because she was so loyal to the Joker.

The page showing a simple change in Barbara's expression - going from fearful to angry - that would have made all the necessary difference here.

It's really frustrating that it's seemingly impossible for an effective discussion on this/adjacent topics to take place without it devolving into inflammatory bullshit.

I appreciated reading Q99 and Pr's stuff on the first page, but since then it's just been pages of this:Originally posted by krisblaze
Indeed.

But that's not really relevant when people who have no clue about videogames or insight into the industry try to paint it as some little boys club where all the protagonists are white 30 somethings.

And people certainly shouldn't be able to strongarm developers or blacklist them for not having a particular character in their games. Originally posted by StyleTime
I haven't seen the strongarming personally. People have to present an argument for or against something when they see a problem. Originally posted by krisblaze
Meh, you don't know the state of the industry. lol, what?

and all the rageposting in this thread...

There's obviously lots to talk about concerning this cover, so it would be cool if this thread could facilitate that function.

Yes that's a good point. Why would she be scared when she's tied up by the biggest psycho in comics who has a gun and is likely in his own warehouse filled with thugs?

And everyone knows Barbara has never cried before. And everyone knows it isn't a reference to the worst moment in her life when she got possibly raped, but for sure got pictures of her taken when she was naked, and got shot and crippled.

Why would she be crying? She should be mad! No woman ever cries.

I think the real issue here is did "the Killing Joke" depict Batgirl being raped?

I've always interpreted it as yes, but I assume Joker didn't take part in that, merely enjoying her anguish.

I could understand if that upsets people that it is being brought up, in a very kiddy Batgirl run: couple issues;

1) Feminists don't read comics, atleast not the crazy militant one. They are too busy pooping on parties
2.) this should only offend you if you read Killing Joke and Batgirl's current run so .01% of those people
3.) and most of all... It is a VARIANT Cover, you don't have to buy it.

There is nothing wrong with the cover. Idiots, idiots everywhere.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
I think the real issue here is did "the Killing Joke" depict Batgirl being raped?

I've always interpreted it as yes, but I assume Joker didn't take part in that, merely enjoying her anguish.

I could understand if that upsets people that it is being brought up, in a very kiddy Batgirl run: couple issues;

1) Feminists don't read comics, atleast not the crazy militant one. They are too busy pooping on parties
2.) this should only offend you if you read Killing Joke and Batgirl's current run so .01% of those people
3.) and most of all... It is a VARIANT Cover, you don't have to buy it.

iirc, Alan Moore said there was no rape.

When I read the original comic, I did think it was possible though.

With what Joker did, he might as well have. Can't be any worse than permanent no walkitis.

Kind of a waste if he didn't when you think about it.

I think only All Star Joker was capable of sexual activity.

Smurph, I'm amazed you consider Q99's stuff quality when it's basically the most inflammatory tumblr shit I've seen in the comic section of KMC.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yes that's a good point. Why would she be scared when she's tied up by the biggest psycho in comics who has a gun and is likely in his own warehouse filled with thugs?

And everyone knows Barbara has never cried before. And everyone knows it isn't a reference to the worst moment in her life when she got possibly raped, but for sure got pictures of her taken when she was naked, and got shot and crippled.

Why would she be crying? She should be mad! No woman ever cries.


As if Tim wasn't scared out of his mind when Joker had him trapped with him in a car.

Or when Jason got killed by Joker.

Hell Batman has repeatedly cried in canon too and he's an emotional tank compared to anyone else in comics, let alone ****ing Barbara.

Didn't Batman cry when he was pleading with Joker to stop being such a dick?

I also think Batman got a bit teary when he found "attraction" in Joker's eyes.

Meanwhile, this cover is okay:

http://cdn.avatar-press.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/CrossedBad16Torture.jpg?100bf3

No visible tears. Don't see anything wrong. It's also girls doing it. Diverse girls.

If anything it's really progressive.

Man, I don't even know if y'all are joking around or not anymore.

The naysayers didnt have a problem with women crying in general. They felt that the totality of the image implied a rape, which (they feel) doesn't mesh well with current depictions of Batgirl.

Crossed is an entirely different ballgame, regardless of the genders involved.

RAPE?

These tumblr feminists are getting cray.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Man, I don't even know if y'all are joking around or not anymore.

The naysayers didnt have a problem with women crying in general. They felt that the totality of the image implied a rape, which (they feel) doesn't mesh well with current depictions of Batgirl.

Crossed is an entirely different ballgame, regardless of the genders involved.

If that was all the problem was, it wouldn't have been that big a deal.

Instead, we got stuff like this:

http://io9.com/the-real-problems-with-this-controversial-batgirl-cove-1692184909

Flat out lies used under the guise of "this is sexist!"

Originally posted by -Pr-
If that was all the problem was, it wouldn't have been that big a deal.

Instead, we got stuff like this:

http://io9.com/the-real-problems-with-this-controversial-batgirl-cove-1692184909

Flat out lies used under the guise of "this is sexist!" lol seriously? Male heroes dont cry? Male heroes dont dwell on their failures?

Originally posted by -Pr-
If that was all the problem was, it wouldn't have been that big a deal.

Instead, we got stuff like this:

http://io9.com/the-real-problems-with-this-controversial-batgirl-cove-1692184909

Flat out lies used under the guise of "this is sexist!"

Her agency! Good god what about her agency!

Also, lol at everyone claiming Batgirl was raped.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Her agency! Good god what about her agency!

Also, lol at everyone claiming Batgirl was raped. You'd think getting a bullet shot in your spine that makes your legs useless would be worse than getting raped... but a penis is more powerful than a bullet I guess.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If that was all the problem was, it wouldn't have been that big a deal.

Instead, we got stuff like this:

http://io9.com/the-real-problems-with-this-controversial-batgirl-cove-1692184909

Flat out lies used under the guise of "this is sexist!" I read the quote and thought, hey that's alright. Then I read a couple paragraphs and couldn't do it.

THE LOOK. HE LOOKS LIKE SEXUAL ASSAULT JOKER AND NOT NORMAL PSYCHO JOKER

Originally posted by Existere
It's really frustrating that it's seemingly impossible for an effective discussion on this/adjacent topics to take place without it devolving into inflammatory bullshit.

I appreciated reading Q99 and Pr's stuff on the first page, but since then it's just been pages of this: lol, what?

and all the rageposting in this thread...

There's obviously lots to talk about concerning this cover, so it would be cool if this thread could facilitate that function.
Be nice if Q99 came back so we can have a different viewpoint around. The other side is already over represented here.
Originally posted by krisblaze
RAPE?

These tumblr feminists are getting cray.
I didn't get the rape implication when I saw it either, but I don't think changing the cover is a big deal.
Originally posted by -Pr-
If that was all the problem was, it wouldn't have been that big a deal.

Instead, we got stuff like this:

http://io9.com/the-real-problems-with-this-controversial-batgirl-cove-1692184909

Flat out lies used under the guise of "this is sexist!"
Well, I think that is all the issue was originally. The problem now is that everyone is arguing, so people jump to broader topics like sexism in general. (Look how quickly this thread went way, way out there. I get much of it was humor, but wow.)

I don't agree with his part about female heroes and trauma.

That's entirely my fault for derailing, or at the very least my fault for jumping on q99's derailing.

It's pretty clear Joker is asexual. He won't be raping anyone in the main universe.

I would have said pansexual rather than asexual, tbh.

Originally posted by krisblaze
I also think Batman got a bit teary when he found "attraction" in Joker's eyes.

Meanwhile, this cover is okay:

http://cdn.avatar-press.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/CrossedBad16Torture.jpg?100bf3

Of course that cover's not okay. It's the comic equivalent of torture porn, shock for it's own sake.

DC also recently got into hot water with Harley Quinn committing suicide in a bathtub contest, whatever that was about. I think they are really tone deaf about these things.

Originally posted by krisblaze


Meanwhile, this cover is okay:

http://cdn.avatar-press.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/CrossedBad16Torture.jpg?100bf3


What the .......

it's actually a decent comic in places. Just really, really dark.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Smurph, I'm amazed you consider Q99's stuff quality when it's basically the most inflammatory tumblr shit I've seen in the comic section of KMC.
I'm going to talk specifically about stuff relating to the comic, because as soon as anything gets gamergatey, people lose their shit. I think it would be really cool if we could have a rational talk about any significant similarities or differences between this comic situation and gamergate, but that's clearly not happening here, and I don't want to get pulled into some flame war.

So, the comic:

I think Q99 was right to point out that the reason that the cover was pulled was, per the artist and DC, because people were threatened with harassment after vocalizing their complaints and negative feelings re: Batgirl's portrayal.

Further, I basically agree that the way that Batgirl is drawn on this cover is:

a) Not in line with the 'feel' of her current character or comic (which may or may not be a problem; your mileage may vary)

b) Obviously gendered. Maybe the cover doesn't spell out sexual assault, but I do think it shows that she is completely at the mercy of Joker, and reduced to terror and tears. I think the raw vulnerability that she's displaying is much starker than we usually/ever see in the way male heroes are drawn, and we're able to fit this within a context of previous sexual assault, whether that means nude photographs or rape.

It feels, as a fan, like Batgirl's not able to overcome and move through her previous trauma in a way that I would expect of any other superhero.

I'm not saying that I think that's necessarily a problem, but it's obvious some people do, including Q99, and I think the discussion on the first page was effective in that it was shedding light on two different perspectives.

Obviously just my take on things though, it looks like Pr and yourself felt differently about it. /shrug.

I agree with A, but not with B. No disrespect intended.

Originally posted by -Pr-
No disrespect intended.

I guess I should add that I know f*ck all about tumblr, and I can't really comment on comparisons between posters here and users there.

Originally posted by Existere
I guess I should add that I know f*ck all about tumblr, and I can't really comment on comparisons between posters here and users there.

You're better off, tbh.

Originally posted by Existere


I'm glad we can agree to disagree so cordially.

Same goes for Q99. I hope that, even if we see things this wildly differently, that Q knows that I have no personal problem with them, and just because they're on a side I don't personally agree with, doesn't mean I'm passing judgement on them as a person.

We just don't agree on very many things, but I would hope that, when it really comes down to it, we want the same things like equality and such. I'm sure they do, I'm just saying I hope I get extended the same courtesy.

I put a lot of thought into this:

We should band together, and complain about the treatment of men in romantic comedies. If they are ever remotely written as funny at the expense of a man we stage mass Twitter hate.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I agree with A, but not with B. No disrespect intended.

I also disagree, but do not respect smurph.

Originally posted by roughrider
Of course that cover's not okay. It's the comic equivalent of torture porn, shock for it's own sake.

DC also recently got into hot water with Harley Quinn committing suicide in a bathtub contest, whatever that was about. I think they are really tone deaf about these things.
Getting in trouble doesn't mean they've done something wrong.

Marvel got in trouble for the Spider-woman cover....

If DC collectively decides that they want Harley Quinn to be chopped into little pieces and served to Robin, then that's their right. It's their characters, their right.

Having Batgirl look afraid of the man who crippled her on an alternate cover is nothing.

Originally posted by krisblaze
God damn nintenjews.

I can't move my BW pokemon into the pokebank because I have a japanese BW...and they claimed the DS was region-free.

Mmmh? That's weird, Pokebank was announced as region-free back in the day. I don't own american/japanese BW games so I can't check.

Originally posted by Bentley
Mmmh? That's weird, Pokebank was announced as region-free back in the day. I don't own american/japanese BW games so I can't check.

The pokebank is tied to one account as far as I know, and Pokemon BW won't work on a western 3ds.

Originally posted by krisblaze
The pokebank is tied to one account as far as I know, and Pokemon BW won't work on a western 3ds.

That's odd, I recall seeing a video that said that you could play BW games in 3DS disregarding their origin. I'll look into that, I'm a bit surprised to hear about this until now.

Originally posted by Bentley
That's odd, I recall seeing a video that said that you could play BW games in 3DS disregarding their origin. I'll look into that, I'm a bit surprised to hear about this until now.

Yes, me too.

But it's not like I haven't tried it.

Shit won't work

Most newer DS games from Japan fall under the DSI-enhanced type of game, which means that they're region locked.

Originally posted by krisblaze
I also disagree, but do not respect smurph.


Getting in trouble doesn't mean they've done something wrong.

Marvel got in trouble for the Spider-woman cover....

If DC collectively decides that they want Harley Quinn to be chopped into little pieces and served to Robin, then that's their right. It's their characters, their right.

Having Batgirl look afraid of the man who crippled her on an alternate cover is nothing.

Ever read Knightfall? I'm going to assume you have, Bane sig and all. The issues that happen just after Bruce gets his back broken actually surpriseded me when I read them. I've never seen a major hero look so emasculated and, almost pathetic, so broken was he both physically and mentally.

I mean, Batman is the poster child for trauma that never gets dealt with, but this was something different.

Just read Thor 1 and see how far Thor had fallen after losing mjolnir. It was humiliating. This isn't.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Ever read Knightfall? I'm going to assume you have, Bane sig and all. The issues that happen just after Bruce gets his back broken actually surpriseded me when I read them. I've never seen a major hero look so emasculated and, almost pathetic, so broken was he both physically and mentally.

I mean, Batman is the poster child for trauma that never gets dealt with, but this was something different.

Knightfall set me down the bane bath, that and secret six.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i135/beccatoria/secretsix/th_15-banechoosesdeath.jpg

It also mirrors Daredevil's "Pariah", which I loved.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just read Thor 1 and see how far Thor had fallen after losing mjolnir. It was humiliating. This isn't.
It's pretty bad, and I'll gladly write a letter to Aaron telling him I don't approve of the direction he's taking the book in.

But I'd never try to censor him an deny him the right to write as he pleases.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Or when Jason got killed by Joker.

Hell Batman has repeatedly cried in canon too and he's an emotional tank compared to anyone else in comics, let alone ****ing Barbara.

Didn't Batman cry when he was pleading with Joker to stop being such a dick?

I'll ask again; post a cover where the male superhero looks like this - weeping, frightened and helpless. This cover plays very much on Barbara's gender.

Originally posted by roughrider
I'll ask again; post a cover where the male superhero looks like this - weeping, frightened and helpless. This cover plays very much on Barbara's gender.
Did I not just post a cover where Batman is bound and defeated?

At the knightfall cover his back is being broken.

In a death in the family he's holding jason's corpse and looking sad.

I can't think of any covers where Batman cries, though there are certainly many covers where he's stripped of agency and helpless...

Edit: the alternate cover didn't look all that great either:
http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mibeTvChJS1QUxsWoxvKV-A.jpg

Well, it didn't take me long to find covers where Batman is stripped of agency.

http://www.comicvine.com/batman-705-eye-of-the-beholder-part-two-see-no-evi/4000-249177/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-674-batman-dies-at-dawn/4000-124117/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-662-grotesk-conclusion/4000-115087/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-585-measure-for-measure/4000-98700/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-529-contagion-part-6-tears-of-blood/4000-42265/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-535-the-ogre-and-the-ape/4000-42854/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-540-the-spectre-of-vengeance-part-1-gotham-/4000-43454/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-546-major-arcana-part-3-hell-to-pay/4000-44053/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-548-the-penguin-returns-part-one-burning-fa/4000-44266/

Here's one where Bruce is crying:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/6/67663/3754885-603.jpg

Here's a bonus sadman:

http://www.comicvine.com/batman-528-two-face-part-2-the-schismed-face/4000-42169/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-558-dying-city/4000-45326/

Let's continue with some shaming covers of Thor:

Behold the lack of agency! The gender! The helplessness!

At the mercy of someone else:
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-217-all-swords-against-them/4000-13814/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-377-this-hollowed-armor/4000-27911/
http://www.comicvine.com/journey-into-mystery-91-sandu-master-of-the-supern/4000-6464/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-24-tears-for-the-fallen/4000-75670/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-190-and-soto-die/4000-11554/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-606-latverian-prometheus-conclusion/4000-194446/

Thor being carried like a hapless babe:
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-331-holy-war/4000-23138/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-127-the-hammer-and-the-holocaust/4000-8497/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-209-warriors-in-the-night/4000-13025/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-305-hark-the-herald-angel-lives/4000-21126/


Thor begging:
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-359-the-grand-alliance/4000-25894/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-167-this-world-renounced/4000-10365/

Thor being sad:
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-58-standoff-part-1/4000-99304/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-71-undertow/4000-99317/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-83-ragnarok-part-the-fourth/4000-99329/

Thor being bullied by that meanie Hercules:
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-356-the-power-and-the-pride/4000-25601/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-6-whats-a-god-to-do/4000-45515/

Thor being tentacle-raped:
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-204-the-demon-from-the-depths/4000-12589/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-256-lurker-in-the-dark/4000-17206/
http://www.comicvine.com/thor-310-the-maelstrom-to-mephisto/4000-21460/

Everything's offensive these days, society is become way too politically correct.

Originally posted by One-Punch
Everything's offensive these days, society is become way too politically correct.

Your comment has offended me. Now I must post an article about it on my blog (of course just my side of the story)

Originally posted by -K-M-
Your comment has offended me. Now I must post an article about it on my blog (of course just my side of the story)
I take offense to your offense.

I'm going to spam Twitter and Tumblr about how KMC promotes bigotry and discrimination until your post is removed and I get a public apology. Also your avatar and signature are male, which supports the oppressive Patriarchy that is raping our society. In other words, you're promoting rape culture.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Well, it didn't take me long to find covers where Batman is stripped of agency.

http://www.comicvine.com/batman-705-eye-of-the-beholder-part-two-see-no-evi/4000-249177/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-674-batman-dies-at-dawn/4000-124117/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-662-grotesk-conclusion/4000-115087/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-585-measure-for-measure/4000-98700/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-529-contagion-part-6-tears-of-blood/4000-42265/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-535-the-ogre-and-the-ape/4000-42854/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-540-the-spectre-of-vengeance-part-1-gotham-/4000-43454/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-546-major-arcana-part-3-hell-to-pay/4000-44053/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-548-the-penguin-returns-part-one-burning-fa/4000-44266/

Here's one where Bruce is crying:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/6/67663/3754885-603.jpg

Here's a bonus sadman:

http://www.comicvine.com/batman-528-two-face-part-2-the-schismed-face/4000-42169/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-558-dying-city/4000-45326/

Sorry, but on none of them do we see a parallel for Barbara's helpless expression. Even though she's not visibly bound or restrained on the cover (unlike Batman, who's chained, tied up or being swallowed by the Spectre himself in those covers), the implication is she's helpless & terrified in the hands of the Joker. Hell, the Tony Daniel cover, despite the blood Batman has a savage grin of defiance on his face, not a fearful one.

Originally posted by One-Punch
Everything's offensive these days, society is become way too politically correct.

It's getting ridiculous.

http://media.offbeatempire.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/05/social-justice-league.jpg

Haha that's beautiful (sorry for things that are not beautiful)

Originally posted by krisblaze
I also think Batman got a bit teary when he found "attraction" in Joker's eyes.

Meanwhile, this cover is okay:

http://cdn.avatar-press.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/CrossedBad16Torture.jpg?100bf3
What in the fvck did I just see???

Originally posted by roughrider
Sorry, but on none of them do we see a parallel for Barbara's helpless expression. Even though she's not visibly bound or restrained on the cover (unlike Batman, who's chained, tied up or being swallowed by the Spectre himself in those covers), the implication is she's helpless & terrified in the hands of the Joker. Hell, the Tony Daniel cover, despite the blood Batman has a savage grin of defiance on his face, not a fearful one.

They are pictures where Batman is without agency, which was the complaint.

Batman is also being explicitly tortured in many of those covers.

Women cry more often than men.

That's not sexism, that's biology.

Originally posted by krisblaze
I also disagree, but do not respect smurph. Do you think the cover references Killing Joke?


Totally.

I think it's also the right of anybody to complain about this cover, or any of the ones you've posted.

Complaints didn't cause DC to 'self-censor'. Readers should be able to vocalize that they think a line has been crossed, even if it's an arbitrary one that they've drawn in the sand.

We agree, but the complaints are not grounded in any consistent or logical criticism. Like in PRs link.

And jokers in his holiday gear, so I assume its inreference to KJ

Originally posted by krisblaze
We agree, but the complaints are not grounded in any consistent or logical criticism. Like in PRs link.

And jokers in his holiday gear, so I assume its inreference to KJ Cool.

I personally don't agree with a lot of what is said in the link Pr posted. I think there is an argument to be made, I don't think the author of that blog is doing it very well.

I also don't really know if I agree with any line of thinking that concludes 'the cover is offensive', or 'that cover shouldn't be published!'. As I said earlier, I do think that gender plays in to the depiction of Batgirl's emotions, and I don't think that the depiction feels in line with her current character. I don't really know how I feel about it beyond that; the cover may or may not be problematic.

That's why I was appreciating the convo between Q and Pr. Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm glad we can agree to disagree so cordially.
Of course. We all have different perspectives and we don't get anything out of acting dismissive towards reasonable responses.

Originally posted by Existere
Cool.

I personally don't agree with a lot of what is said in the link Pr posted. I think there is an argument to be made, I don't think the author of that blog is doing it very well.

I also don't really know if I agree with any line of thinking that concludes 'the cover is offensive', or 'that cover shouldn't be published!'. As I said earlier, I do think that gender plays in to the depiction of Batgirl's emotions, and I don't think that the depiction feels in line with her current character. I don't really know how I feel about it beyond that; the cover may or may not be problematic.

That's why I was appreciating the convo between Q and Pr. Of course. We all have different perspectives and we don't get anything out of acting dismissive towards reasonable responses.
Yes we can all have our own opinions... Even if you are completely wrong

Originally posted by Spawningpool
Yes we can all have our own opinions... Even if you are completely wrong

I think sorting between which opinions are totally absurd and which are reasonable isn't always obvious, and requires open conversation. That conversation can't effectively take place in the presence of harassment and threats - empty or otherwise.

And so, the cover got pulled.

Originally posted by Existere


I think sorting between which opinions are totally absurd and which are reasonable isn't always obvious, and requires open conversation. That conversation can't effectively take place in the presence of harassment and threats - empty or otherwise.

And so, the cover got pulled.
Annnnd again I get owned

Smurph is so reasonable, cant deal.

We are in agreement.

Originally posted by Existere
Of course. We all have different perspectives and we don't get anything out of acting dismissive towards reasonable responses.

This. This topic and the related topics about similar things are a discussion worth having regarding comics, games and everything else. The various sides are all too quick to get dismissive and hostile, and I get it people feel passionate about it often feel their hobbies or views are being threatened (this goes to both sides, the so called "progressives" are just as guilty in regards to jumping on people). But we need to actually talk about these things and really explain each others sides without the hostility. Maybe nothing changes but maybe it does, at the very least we have a better understanding of why the other person feels the way they do. And that's always a good thing.

Ok...I am not trying to start shit here, but I only noticed insult slinging and rage posting from one side in this thread. Let's not try and dodge culpability with the "well they do it too" thing. The "feminist" stance was demonized right from the start, in the title.

Like Smurph, I don't follow tumblr, so maybe I am missing the rage from the other side. Regardless, it shouldn't affect behavior in this thread. Aside from Pr, many of your posts resemble the negatively charged sentiments you claim your opposition makes.

Originally posted by One-Punch
http://media.offbeatempire.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/05/social-justice-league.jpg

The cover is a crucial selling point in the individual issue. Whatever people may think about what the Joker's motivations are, the message put out by that over implies rape of some kind. Show me a cover (not individual panels, a front cover) where a male hero has the terrified expression of a soon-to-be rape victim. Not in peril of death, but a fate that has them crying about what's to come. I don't think we'll find one, because it's considered unmanly by the male hero to appear so weak on the cover.

Marvel's last misstep with things like this was probably Carol Danvers 35 years ago, and Chris Claremont fought to get that fixed. DC is the one with a bit more rapey culture, thanks to the legacy of Alan Moore and Identity Crisis.

Originally posted by Existere
Cool.

I personally don't agree with a lot of what is said in the link Pr posted. I think there is an argument to be made, I don't think the author of that blog is doing it very well.

I also don't really know if I agree with any line of thinking that concludes 'the cover is offensive', or 'that cover shouldn't be published!'. As I said earlier, I do think that gender plays in to the depiction of Batgirl's emotions, and I don't think that the depiction feels in line with her current character. I don't really know how I feel about it beyond that; the cover may or may not be problematic.

That's why I was appreciating the convo between Q and Pr. Of course. We all have different perspectives and we don't get anything out of acting dismissive towards reasonable responses.



Originally posted by StyleTime
Ok...I am not trying to start shit here, but I only noticed insult slinging and rage posting from one side in this thread. Let's not try and dodge culpability with the "well they do it too" thing. The "feminist" stance was demonized right from the start, in the title.

Like Smurph, I don't follow tumblr, so maybe I am missing the rage from the other side. Regardless, it shouldn't affect behavior in this thread. Aside from Pr, many of your posts resemble the negatively charged sentiments you claim your opposition makes.

It's borne of experiencing so much shit slinging that you're almost drowning in it. People like Kris for example, have seen the same shit I have, but I'm just too nice to be a **** about it.

I've seen this kind of behaviour before, and it comes across as turning a legitimate issue in to something way beyond what it should be, at least from my pov.

Originally posted by roughrider
The cover is a crucial selling point in the individual issue. Whatever people may think about what the Joker's motivations are, the message put out by that over implies rape of some kind. Show me a cover (not individual panels, a front cover) where a male hero has the terrified expression of a soon-to-be rape victim. Not in peril of death, but a fate that has them crying about what's to come. I don't think we'll find one, because it's considered unmanly by the male hero to appear so weak on the cover.

Marvel's last misstep with things like this was probably Carol Danvers 35 years ago, and Chris Claremont fought to get that fixed. DC is the one with a bit more rapey culture, thanks to the legacy of Alan Moore and Identity Crisis.

Genuine question: What about rape being implied (for those that believe it's implied) makes it sexist?

Men can and have been raped in comics, in ways far more graphic and traumatising than a cover could ever imply without actually showing it. Or do you honestly believe that it being a cover somehow elevates it past anything that might happen within the comic?

Invisible Man getting raped to death is nothing compared to tears on a comic cover, because everyone knows tears are directly connected to rape.

Because Joker is a serial rapist. As opposed to a murderer like the gun and the finger to the head implies. And rape is a worse very very vague implication than the very real and present threat of murder.

Via a ****ing bullet to the head from a revolver.


I mean, whatever sexist. That's alright even though men heroes get their lives ruined on covers all the time. But the rape is a god damned stretch. You think if Batgirl was a real character she'd worry more about his penis than getting shot in the spine again? Even if he did rape her. Do people honestly think her tears would be from fear of rape?

Originally posted by -Pr-



Genuine question: What about rape being implied (for those that believe it's implied) makes it sexist?

Men can and have been raped in comics, in ways far more graphic and traumatising than a cover could ever imply without actually showing it. Or do you honestly believe that it being a cover somehow elevates it past anything that might happen within the comic?

That is a cultural thing that extends beyond comics. Male rape is considered a joke or something that can't happen depending on the context (as we have both seen) in regards to why men don't factor in the situation.

Regarding rape = sexism well I think many think that rape is a line we just shouldn't cross in fiction unless it's actually about the horrific situation and how to deal with it or what it can do to people. Some feel that alot of fiction treats it too lightly and almost glorifies it and see it as a sign towards a general mis treatment of women in society. I don't agree but I do get why some don't like to see rape especially if they are looking at something they think should be fun. That said imo if rape is just a line that shouldn't be crossed I think that should be what you discuss instead of calling people sexist and other charged names. Talk about why you feel it is a subject that isn't a right for what is going on, and that even the implication of it can send the wrong message.

As I said I don't agree but that is what I've seen as the issue with such things. A lot of people see things like that and feel it contributes to the very real issues with rape in society (which isn't helped by the silly comments people on the internet often make). I disagree and have seen no evidence to convince of that being the case, but for a lot of people it is easier to target things like fiction where they can make a change over the much harder and honestly unfair world of reality. I honestly feel for anyone who is reminded of a horrific event by such things, especially when they go in expecting to see something light hearted but I disagree with the idea that anyone who doesn't feel the same is some sexist monster.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Invisible Man getting raped to death is nothing compared to tears on a comic cover, because everyone knows tears are directly connected to rape.

Because Joker is a serial rapist. As opposed to a murderer like the gun and the finger to the head implies. And rape is a worse very very vague implication than the very real and present threat of murder.

Via a ****ing bullet to the head from a revolver.


I mean, whatever sexist. That's alright even though men heroes get their lives ruined on covers all the time. But the rape is a god damned stretch. You think if Batgirl was a real character she'd worry more about his penis than getting shot in the spine again? Even if he did rape her. Do people honestly think her tears would be from fear of rape?

I honestly don't, I was just trying to see another POV.

I don't believe it's sexist for a second, nor do the people I've asked, so I really just wanted to hear more about it from the "other" side.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
That is a cultural thing that extends beyond comics. Male rape is considered a joke or something that can't happen depending on the context (as we have both seen) in regards to why men don't factor in the situation.

Regarding rape = sexism well I think many think that rape is a line we just shouldn't cross in fiction unless it's actually about the horrific situation and how to deal with it or what it can do to people. Some feel that alot of fiction treats it too lightly and almost glorifies it and see it as a sign towards a general mis treatment of women in society. I don't agree but I do get why some don't like to see rape especially if they are looking at something they think should be fun. That said imo if rape is just a line that shouldn't be crossed I think that should be what you discuss instead of calling people sexist and other charged names. Talk about why you feel it is a subject that isn't a right for what is going on, and that even the implication of it can send the wrong message.

As I said I don't agree but that is what I've seen as the issue with such things. A lot of people see things like that and feel it contributes to the very real issues with rape in society (which isn't helped by the silly comments people on the internet often make). I disagree and have seen no evidence to convince of that being the case, but for a lot of people it is easier to target things like fiction where they can make a change over the much harder and honestly unfair world of reality. I honestly feel for anyone who is reminded of a horrific event by such things, especially when they go in expecting to see something light hearted but I disagree with the idea that anyone who doesn't feel the same is some sexist monster.

Oh, I honestly agree with you to an extent.

Anytime I would come across someone who would say those things "trigger" them or anything, though, would be:

IT'S THE ****ING JOKER.

To me, that character is potentially the darkest villain in comics, with absolutely no limit to what he will or won't do. I actually think he would rape Barbara if the mood struck him.

I just believe that he'd rape Batman too.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly don't, I was just trying to see another POV.

I don't believe it's sexist for a second, nor do the people I've asked, so I really just wanted to hear more about it from the "other" side.



Oh, I honestly agree with you to an extent.

Anytime I would come across someone who would say those things "trigger" them or anything, though, would be:

IT'S THE ****ING JOKER.

To me, that character is potentially the darkest villain in comics, with absolutely no limit to what he will or won't do. I actually think he would rape Barbara if the mood struck him.

I just believe that he'd rape Batman too.

He probably would, and from someone who doesn't read batgirl the cover is fine to me. But I'm just answering what I feel is why the label is thrown on as well as some of my thoughts on the larger issue of the whole rape in fiction situation.

Which is that I understand, just I don't think that outrage is the proper response. Just as I don't thinking mocking the issue some may have ( in this case I'm saying that if it is something serious like that) is either as long as they themselves aren't insulting people who don't have an issue with it (which I said is something I strongly disagree with)

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
He probably would, and from someone who doesn't read batgirl the cover is fine to me. But I'm just answering what I feel is why the label is thrown on as well as some of my thoughts on the larger issue of the whole rape in fiction situation.

Which is that I understand, just I don't think that outrage is the proper response. Just as I don't thinking mocking the issue some may have ( in this case I'm saying that if it is something serious like that) is either as long as they themselves aren't insulting people who don't have an issue with it (which I said is something I strongly disagree with)

I think we're actually on the same page, tbh.

I don't like making anyone feel bad. I just have a low tolerance for people who "make up" things to be offended about, and in this case, there are a lot of people doing that, imo.

Not people in this thread mind you. I'm more talking about the crazies on other sites.

I'm not saying you did say it's sexist Paul.

Just saying that sexist is a complaint I can kind of see. But rape is straight up non existant. It's a made up complaint that doesn't actually exist in the picture and it's secondary to the imminent murder she should be afraid of like any human being or something scared of getting blasted in the face.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I'm not saying you did say it's sexist Paul.

Just saying that sexist is a complaint I can kind of see. But rape is straight up non existant. It's a made up complaint that doesn't actually exist in the picture and it's secondary to the imminent murder she should be afraid of like any human being or something scared of getting blasted in the face.

Oh, I wasn't saying you were saying I was, sorry.

There are some people who will tell you rape is worse than murder though. Not me, but some people.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Oh, I wasn't saying you were saying I was, sorry.

There are some people who will tell you rape is worse than murder though. Not me, but some people.

Tbh that's a much more sensitive topic that is prolly best for a separate thread.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Tbh that's a much more sensitive topic that is prolly best for a separate thread.

lol, I think half the stuff in this thread doesn't belong here either.

All of this hoopla over a comic cover.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I
Anytime I would come across someone who would say those things "trigger" them or anything, though, would be:

IT'S THE ****ING JOKER.

To me, that character is potentially the darkest villain in comics, with absolutely no limit to what he will or won't do. I actually think he would rape Barbara if the mood struck him.

I just believe that he'd rape Batman too.


But the thing is, that's utterly not in theme with this Batgirl book, and the writers of the book don't like the cover- at least, not tied to their book. It's actively marketed to younger readers recently. And other more lighthearted books- or even notably less light ones like Wonder Woman which features human sacrifice- got jokier versions of Joker, because Joker is a villain with a lot of versions.

If this had been a Vertigo Batgirl book, or even the prior one, it'd fit more... even then it'd be too much 'portrayed as victim' for my taste (the problem isn't purely what Joker's doing, so much as how Barbara is portrayed/reacting), but you can be sure as heck the reaction would be less major.


Like, imagine if you had the recent 'removed face' Joker on the cover of Tiny Titans. Even just him on his own in his more horror mode would be way out of line, because it doesn't fit in context.

And in the converse, Tiny Titans Joker wouldn't fit in an issue of the prior Batgirl run... though the objections would be fairly different.

(Also, I picture Joker as either asexual, *or* only really interested in Batman. He actually doesn't go the sex route very often, as horrifying as he is. Batman is pretty much the only person who seems 'real' to him, everyone else is a prop. He even merely fakes occasional affection with Harley to manipulate her, but that is a total act)


Btw, I thought I'd share a 'Batgirl in Distress' pic I do like:

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/248/5/a/ed_benes_batgirl__cover_by_ed_benes_studio-d5dofbx.jpg


Batgirl's stabbed. She's clearly in trouble. And look at her eyes. Look how massively different the message of this cover is theme wise.


Barbara's not victimized for all that she's literally bleeding dangerously, she is a hero in big trouble. Even in a worse situation, the context presents a very different picture.

Originally posted by -Pr-
lol, I think half the stuff in this thread doesn't belong here either.

All of this hoopla over a comic cover.

sure but like gamer gate and stuff is still the same general discussion. The whole 'how bad is being raped?" is touchy in a different way imo