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Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Heaven, from what we can speculate, seems to be a system that some would call a tyranny as no one was allowed to question anything or ask for change in leadership or policies.

Was Satan and the third of angels who rejected tyranny wrong to demand equal rights, and if so, are all people who demand equal rights on earth also doing something satanic?

Is this why most religions are reluctant to give women and gays equality? Do Christians and Muslims think equality to be evil and satanic?

Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Heaven, from what we can speculate, seems to be a system that some would call a tyranny as no one was allowed to question anything or ask for change in leadership or policies.

Was Satan and the third of angels who rejected tyranny wrong to demand equal rights, and if so, are all people who demand equal rights on earth also doing something satanic?

Is this why most religions are reluctant to give women and gays equality? Do Christians and Muslims think equality to be evil and satanic?

Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?

Regards

DL

There is no equity in heaven.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

equal rights? satan wants to be equal with God, not with his fellow angels...

I wonder if there's a source at all to your Satan equality claims.

lol

Originally posted by Bentley
I wonder if there's a source at all to your Satan equality claims.
Damn democrats

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is no equity in heaven.

I know. Satan lost.

Some might see it as a win as God lost a full third of his slave angels.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I know. Satan lost.

Some might see it as a win as God lost a full third of his slave angels.

Regards
DL

But you must remember that heaven is a part of this reality. It is not separate. Heaven and hell are right before your eyes.

Originally posted by dyajeep
equal rights? satan wants to be equal with God, not with his fellow angels...

He already was equal to the angels. Scriptures say he was the best of the bunch.

She just wanted equality to be the heavenly policy.

I say she because Satan is depicted as a woman in the Vatican art.

No need to wonder why with Christian misogyny so prevalent.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Bentley
I wonder if there's a source at all to your Satan equality claims.

Why else would anyone rebel in a tyranny?

Longer lunches?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you must remember that heaven is a part of this reality. It is not separate. Heaven and hell are right before your eyes.

No argument on reality.

This O.P. is not speaking to reality but to the myth as
understood by Christians.

What you are expressing, Gnostics have always believed.


Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will
precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is
outside of you. become acquainted with
will find it; become acquainted with yourselves, it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."

Most Christians are poverty.

You and I are not.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
No argument on reality.

This O.P. is not speaking to reality but to the myth as
understood by Christians.

What you are expressing, Gnostics have always believed.


Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will
precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is
outside of you. become acquainted with
will find it; become acquainted with yourselves, it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."

Most Christians are poverty.

You and I are not.

Regards
DL

Yes!

"Nevertheless, even though you chant and believe in Myoho-renge-kyo, if you think the Law is outside yourself, you are embracing not the Mystic Law but an inferior teaching."

Nichiren Daishonin

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes!

"Nevertheless, even though you chant and believe in Myoho-renge-kyo, if you think the Law is outside yourself, you are embracing not the Mystic Law but an inferior teaching."

Nichiren Daishonin

Having a Christ consciousness puts the law I follow at my fingertips, so to speak. All within my mind.

Regards
DL

I'd rather die than not believe in Jesus.

Come to think of it that may be the first death.
As far as what the Father was talking about in the second Death I think we'll all find out soon enough.

Originally posted by Wonder Man
I'd rather die than not believe in Jesus.

You sound like an extremist.

I don't even remember what reason was given for Satan's beef from God. Wasn't it something like..God told the angels to love humans more then God, and Satan didn't like that? Or was it Satan was jealous of the attention God showed humanity?

Also this somewhat ties into my recent thread, if God truly knows everything, doesn't that mean when he created the angels he knew one of them would turn into Satan?

Originally posted by Surtur
I don't even remember what reason was given for Satan's beef from God. Wasn't it something like..God told the angels to love humans more then God, and Satan didn't like that? Or was it Satan was jealous of the attention God showed humanity?

Also this somewhat ties into my recent thread, if God truly knows everything, doesn't that mean when he created the angels he knew one of them would turn into Satan?

That is exactly why taking Christian mythology literally makes no sense.

Originally posted by Wonder Man
I'd rather die than not believe in Jesus.

If you believe in Jesus, and he said that you could do as much as he did and more if you believed in him, so what are you waiting for to do as he did?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If you believe in Jesus, and he said that you could do as much as he did and more if you believed in him, so what are you waiting for to do as he did?

Regards
DL

Are you telling him to crucify himself?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Are you telling him to crucify himself?

I did not have that in mind but that did not hurt Jesus. He was around right after it.

I was referring more to his other miracles.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by dyajeep
equal rights? satan wants to be equal with God, not with his fellow angels...

^ So, the lesson to be learned is never oppose authority.

Thing is, everyone SHOULD be equal. This might makes right bullshit is..well, bullshit. Whether it is God doing it or a super villain in a comic.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
^ So, the lesson to be learned is never oppose authority.

Exactly what all religions want from their sheeple.

Now how did that happen?

Smacks of social manipulation and control and no religion is into that, much.

Oh wait. That is exactly what they are all about.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Surtur
Thing is, everyone SHOULD be equal. This might makes right bullshit is..well, bullshit. Whether it is God doing it or a super villain in a comic.

+ 1

Most moral systems have as our first decision the choice of showing harm or care towards the other.

Most put care of the other ahead of harm.

Not in God's case, His first three commandments are designed to harm the other and not care about them.

We are to be centered on other as a form of good moral conduct yet God does the opposite.

http://blog.ted.com/the_real_differ/

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Exactly what all religions want from their sheeple.

Now how did that happen?

Smacks of social manipulation and control and no religion is into that, much.

Oh wait. That is exactly what they are all about.

Regards
DL

Control! Governments are also into that.

Who were the first 2 angels to demand equality?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Who were the first 2 angels to demand equality?

Which mythology are you asking about?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Which mythology are you asking about?

The one that "Greatest i am" is referencing.

Do you know any Christian, Muslim or Jewish Mythologies that make such a claim?

Originally posted by Bardock42
The one that "Greatest i am" is referencing.

Do you know any Christian, Muslim or Jewish Mythologies that make such a claim?

No. The "2" through me. I only know of 1 who wanted equality. I will wait for "Greatest I am" to reply.

Lucifer wanted to take God's place, didn't he? It had nothing to do with equal rights.

Issiah 14 : 12-14

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

You said in your heart, "I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

Sounds like he wanted to be equal to me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sounds like he wanted to be equal to me.
"I will make myself like the Most High," that sounds very much like an usurping.

Anyway it deals with authority and not rights, and Lucifer wanted it for himself and not for anyone else.

Originally posted by Astner
"I will make myself like the Most High," that sounds very much like an usurping.

Anyway it deals with authority and not rights, and Lucifer wanted it for himself and not for anyone else.

I'm going to make myself just like you. Does that sound like I'm going to make myself better then you?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm going to make myself just like you. Does that sound like I'm going to make myself better then you?
No. But if I'm a ruler and you say that you're going to make yourself like me then you are threatening my position.

Originally posted by Astner
No. But if I'm a ruler and you say that you're going to make yourself like me then you are threatening my position.

Only if you are a dictator. I would think a God would not be paranoid.

If I walked up to the president and demanded that I should have the same authority as he, agreeing to said demand would compromise his authority.

Furthermore, it's not demanding equal rights.

Originally posted by Astner
If I walked up to the president and demanded that I should have the same authority as he, that would compromise his position.

You can have the same authority as the president. All you have to do is run for office and win. But the president doesn't have the right to cast out his opponents.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You can have the same authority as the president. All you have to do is run for office and win.
But then the former president would not be president anymore. Hence usurping.

Originally posted by Astner
But then the former president would not be president anymore. Hence usurping.

All satan said was that we was going to... Perhaps he was waiting until the next election.

Mythology is so hard to interpret.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Control! Governments are also into that.

Indeed but with rules that we generally or supposedly voted on.

Religious law is imposed from woo land.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Bardock42
Who were the first 2 angels to demand equality?

Just Satan and a third of the angels in heaven were cast out.

Satan is named but no other that I know of.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Astner
Lucifer wanted to take God's place, didn't he? It had nothing to do with equal rights.

Issiah 14 : 12-14

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

You said in your heart, "I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

Is I will make myself like the most high not saying I will make myself equal to the most high?

Is that not saying I seek equality with the most high?

It does the way I read and use English.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Astner
But then the former president would not be president anymore. Hence usurping.

usurp

verb \yu̇-ˈsərp also -ˈzərp\

: to take and keep (something, such as power) in a forceful or violent way and especially without the right to do so

An election is not forceful or violent nowadays and no force is indicated for Satan's push for an election.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

When did he demand equal rights heaven?

He either wanted to supplant God or to be singularly equal with him.

How is that equal rights?

Originally posted by Mindset
When did he demand equal rights heaven?

He either wanted to supplant God or to be singularly equal with him.

How is that equal rights?

Hmmm "equal with him", "equal rights" sounds the same to me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Hmmm "equal with him", "equal rights" sounds the same to me. 2 Kings don't make a nation of equality.

Originally posted by Mindset
2 Kings don't make a nation of equality.

2 kings beat 2 queens.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
2 kings beat 2 queens. Doug Heffernan is the King of Queens.

Originally posted by Mindset
Doug Heffernan is the King of Queens.

Why would a God use such an out of date, oppressive governing system like a monarchy?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why would a God use such an out of date, oppressive governing system like a monarchy? He started it before it was cool to start it.

Originally posted by Mindset
He started it before it was cool to start it.

What a bad idea.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
He already was equal to the angels. Scriptures say he was the best of the bunch.

She just wanted equality to be the heavenly policy.

I say she because Satan is depicted as a woman in the Vatican art.

No need to wonder why with Christian misogyny so prevalent.

Regards
DL

That's pretty funny. The Bible called them the Sons of God.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Heaven, from what we can speculate, seems to be a system that some would call a tyranny as no one was allowed to question anything or ask for change in leadership or policies.

Was Satan and the third of angels who rejected tyranny wrong to demand equal rights, and if so, are all people who demand equal rights on earth also doing something satanic?

Is this why most religions are reluctant to give women and gays equality? Do Christians and Muslims think equality to be evil and satanic?

Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?

Regards
DL

The way I see it is like this. If you the parent bought, built, own, and pay the bills for your house, why would your children be your equal within your house? Why don't you try it some time? Give your children as much power as you have over your property, and then ask yourself if that's fair, and just.

Originally posted by Stoic
That's pretty funny. The Bible called them the Sons of God.



The way I see it is like this. If you the parent bought, built, own, and pay the bills for your house, why would your children be your equal within your house? Why don't you try it some time? Give your children as much power as you have over your property, and then ask yourself if that's fair, and just.

Okay, but when one tries to be your equal, would it be right to cast them out for all eternity. You wouldn't be a very good parent, now would you?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Okay, but when one tries to be your equal, would it be right to cast them out for all eternity. You wouldn't be a very good parent, now would you?

If my child was a murderer, liar, disobedient, disorderly, and above all refused to follow the rules that I the parent raised them up to follow in my house? Yes I would kick them out of my house. Or, would you have a murderer running around in your house with notions of corrupting your other children, and/or killing them? The choice is clear to me. If it isn't to you, perhaps you should ask others what they think. I'd throw him out on his duff.

One rotting apple can spoil the entire 100lb bag of good apples if not removed on time.

One cancerous cell can destroy the entire body if not treated.

etc.... Should I go on?

Originally posted by Stoic
If my child was a murderer, liar, disobedient, disorderly, and above all refused to follow the rules that I the parent raised them up to follow in my house? Yes I would kick them out of my house. Or, would you have a murderer running around in your house with notions of corrupting your other children, and/or killing them? The choice is clear to me. If it isn't to you, perhaps you should ask others what they think. I'd throw him out on his duff.

One rotting apple can spoil the entire 100lb bag of good apples if not removed on time.

One cancerous cell can destroy the entire body if not treated.

etc.... Should I go on?

As far as I know, satan didn't do any of that. All he did was say he wanted to be like god.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
As far as I know, satan didn't do any of that. All he did was say he wanted to be like god.

As far as I know, the Bible called him a liar, murderer, and many other horrible things. Read it, and see for yourself. Or, do you think he suddenly developed those tendencies once he was booted out of his fathers house? There was a war in Heaven, and no one knows how long God put up with it before he decided to get up, and kick Lucifer out. It wasn't immediate, so there is evidence that God actually hoped that he would change his ways before the exile began.


But then again, this brings us back to what I said before.

If you the parent bought, built, own, and pay the bills for your house, why would your children be your equal within your house?

It sounds like Lucifer wanted a shot at being God. No different then back in 2008 when Obama wanted a shot at being president. Except we gave him that shot. God? Can't handle being questioned. Even though being God he should of known these beings would question him prior to even creating them. It also seemed like God gave humans "free will" but angels were much more limited, so I'd be pissed too.

Since again: nobody elected God. It is "might makes right" all over again. Remember, this is the being that feels so smugly superior to most people despite committing atrocities that put even the worst humans to shame.

If God exists he is not better then us, just more powerful. Just like we currently are more powerful then a primitive society, but it doesn't make us better people, just more advanced.

It is strange when the scriptures they post to support their claim, clearly says the opposite of what they believe.

Well the alternative is admitting their religion has all kinds of contradictions. If I was a devout Christian I'd probably be doing my damndest to interpret scripture in as flattering a light as possible. Even if it was like "on the 8th day they killed babies and drank their blood" I'd be all "WILL OF GOD!!!!!!!!!" and then I'd declare a blood war on all infants.

Originally posted by Surtur
Well the alternative is admitting their religion has all kinds of contradictions. If I was a devout Christian I'd probably be doing my damndest to interpret scripture in as flattering a light as possible. Even if it was like "on the 8th day they killed babies and drank their blood" I'd be all "WILL OF GOD!!!!!!!!!" and then I'd declare a blood war on all infants.

True, but you have been infected by logic.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is strange when the scriptures they post to support their claim, clearly says the opposite of what they believe.

Prove your point if you have one. Who are they that are making claims, and what scriptures are you talking about that goes against what is posted. Show me.

Originally posted by Surtur
It sounds like Lucifer wanted a shot at being God. No different then back in 2008 when Obama wanted a shot at being president. Except we gave him that shot. God? Can't handle being questioned. Even though being God he should of known these beings would question him prior to even creating them. It also seemed like God gave humans "free will" but angels were much more limited, so I'd be pissed too.

Since again: nobody elected God. It is "might makes right" all over again. Remember, this is the being that feels so smugly superior to most people despite committing atrocities that put even the worst humans to shame.

If God exists he is not better then us, just more powerful. Just like we currently are more powerful then a primitive society, but it doesn't make us better people, just more advanced.

Why would you allow your child to rule the house that you created, bought, built, and paid for? What right do they have to claim what is not theirs? Do you even know what you are talking about? This isn't Marvel and DC comics. Come prepared or be shut down. Are you ready?

Originally posted by Surtur
Well the alternative is admitting their religion has all kinds of contradictions. If I was a devout Christian I'd probably be doing my damndest to interpret scripture in as flattering a light as possible. Even if it was like "on the 8th day they killed babies and drank their blood" I'd be all "WILL OF GOD!!!!!!!!!" and then I'd declare a blood war on all infants.

Give me a list of these contradictions. Again, do you even know what you are talking about? If not, remain still. And not to be pedantic, but you constantly do it. It is not could of, or would of, or even should of. It is Would've, could've, or should've. Bring proof of your convictions though. Show me these contradictions, tell me what it is that you are broadly accusing millions of people of doing. If you can't your concession is accepted.

.

Originally posted by Stoic
Prove your point if you have one. Who are they that are making claims, and what scriptures are you talking about that goes against what is posted. Show me...

Originally posted by Astner
Lucifer wanted to take God's place, didn't he? It had nothing to do with equal rights.

Issiah 14 : 12-14

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

You said in your heart, "I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

Originally posted by Shakyamunison


You do realize that one persons understanding does not actually extend to millions of others right? The Bible explicitly states not to lean on your own understanding. Also I'm not entirely sure if you didn't take Astner's words out of context? This person may have been trying to explain something completely different than what you thought that they were.

It should also be known that God treated people differently in the days of the Old Testament. Why is that? Because people were different then, than the were in the times of Christ. People changed, God didn't. The Bible states that in those days he used to wink at certain things that people did, because they lacked knowledge of who God was, and what he actually wanted from the people. What God wanted was a closer relationship with people as opposed to cattle sacrifices. These sacrifices were done to appease for their sins. This is not something that God wanted, but something that man decided to use as a tribute in order to draw closer to God.

People change very often. In fact; we are different as a people than we were just 50-200 years ago. Minorities in general just got out of slavery. Just 15-20 years ago, it became popular for people to walk around with their pants half way pulled up... etc. People change with the trends. Where in the Bible did you see God change? Please find out, because I have never seen any change taking place in God according to the Bible. Nope not once. People change.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why would you allow your child to rule the house that you created, bought, built, and paid for? What right do they have to claim what is not theirs? Do you even know what you are talking about? This isn't Marvel and DC comics. Come prepared or be shut down. Are you ready?

What right do you have to create someone and then say they have to do everything you say? Please don't talk about being "shut down". There will be no shutting down dude, you need to settle down.

Also you know the thing about children is they eventually GROW UP. But God never dies, so he can never rise above him, which is what most parents WANT their kids to do.

You want to cite examples? This is like if you have a family of kids, then you go cheat and create a shitload more kids and you tell your first set of kids to basically obey you, but you let the second set run wild. Any "Father" who does that is the biggest piece of shit in the world, so what are you defending? As mass murderer? A deadbeat dad? What? God knows everything, he knew Satan would be a dick and still created the f*cker. That is all that needs to be said really.



Dude, if you have to even ask for contradictions about this religion I don't even know what to say. Just off the top of my head: they preach love for everyone, but being gay isn't okay. I know some christians tolerate it, but in the bible it is described as wrong.

You just asked me what contradictions the religion had. I mean, come on. That is like saying you are a math genius and then asking me what 1+1 is.

These people preach love and forgiveness, and then have a whole laundry list of things that if you do? Well, that love and forgiveness is gone and you deserve to die, and if you feel everything on that list is an action worthy of death..you do not know what you are talking about.

I'm not a religious scholar, I'm just going off what I learned from 12 years of this bullshit in catholic schools. No, I can't cite you specific passages because I don't care, I know what I was taught by these people.

Originally posted by Surtur
What right do you have to create someone and then say they have to do everything you say? Please don't talk about being "shut down". There will be no shutting down dude, you need to settle down.

Also you know the thing about children is they eventually GROW UP. But God never dies, so he can never rise above him, which is what most parents WANT their kids to do.

You want to cite examples? This is like if you have a family of kids, then you go cheat and create a shitload more kids and you tell your first set of kids to basically obey you, but you let the second set run wild. Any "Father" who does that is the biggest piece of shit in the world, so what are you defending? As mass murderer? A deadbeat dad? What? God knows everything, he knew Satan would be a dick and still created the f*cker. That is all that needs to be said really.



Dude, if you have to even ask for contradictions about this religion I don't even know what to say. Just off the top of my head: they preach love for everyone, but being gay isn't okay. I know some christians tolerate it, but in the bible it is described as wrong.

You just asked me what contradictions the religion had. I mean, come on. That is like saying you are a math genius and then asking me what 1+1 is.

These people preach love and forgiveness, and then have a whole laundry list of things that if you do? Well, that love and forgiveness is gone and you deserve to die, and if you feel everything on that list is an action worthy of death..you do not know what you are talking about.

I'm not a religious scholar, I'm just going off what I learned from 12 years of this bullshit in catholic schools. No, I can't cite you specific passages because I don't care, I know what I was taught by these people.

Ah. OK now I see what you are saying. I'm sorry but i think that i misunderstood you. You are holding the bible up to the standards of the people that follow it, but you should instead be holding the people that follow the bible up to the standards written within the Bible. The Bible clearly states that God will be the final judge. The Bible also pretty much teaches us to live, and let live. What the people often do that follow the bible is add their own little spin on things, and these little spins often leave people that are looking from the outside feeling a little standoffish. The Bible says to judge, but judge fairly. About judgement. The Bible states that God will make his children the Judges of all nations, so how much more should you judge these little things. Again it states to judge fairly. We all have our short comings, but pin the blame in the proper place. You are speaking of the people, not the practice. If not i would like you to show me one spot where the Bible contradicts itself, because we will then have to cross reference it with actual canonical evidence located in the book.

There are groups of religious organizations that claim to be Christian, while only being Christ-like. They take a portion of the Bible that serves them, and add their little pieces to it, while omitting other parts of the Bible that goes against their agenda. Another thing that should be noted in the Bible, is that the Children of God did not exist historically, or canonically in the Bible until after the death of Christ. Now wait a second there.... That may seem to contradict the idea of the Son's of God, but it doesn't. The Son's of God were the Angels, and were not human. While the Children of God were human.

You may be wondering why the people before the death of Christ (Old Testament) were not considered to be the Children of God? Well according to the Bible, those people did not yet have the Holy Spirit at that point in time. The Holy Spirit did exist, but it only ministered, and inspired men and women in those days. In fact, the Bible says to repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I need to ask you a question. Since when did a persons sin become the person? Fornication is a sin. It always has been a sin, and it always will be a sin. Since when did the Bible ever say that God hated the sinner? I believe that it states that God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. According to the Bible, the reason that people are married is according to the laws that govern the lands. If there were no laws surrounding the union between two people, it would not be a sin. However, marriage is a part of the laws of the land, and have been in place for quite some time as we both know. However marriage is not what it was originally meant to be these days. In fact some marriages are abominations, or could be considered such. What i mean is that there are literally couples that are married in this day and age, that are in relationships, or marriages that are as robust as the rings that they placed on each others fingers.

Again, why not read the Bible and see for yourself what it says? At least you will be armed with a means of detecting the BS of organizations that claim to come in Christ's name, or claim to represent him, when they really only have their own agendas. I challenge you to do that, because it may show you things that you did not know about. Just think about it brother, how many fakes run around claiming things on a daily basis? You see people twisting the truth right here in these forums. I mean lying about things, and adding unneeded filth to themselves for the most trivial and unimportant things. Why couldn't the Bible be lied about to those that don't clearly know what has been written it it?

I'm going to ask you one more question. If someone that you don't even know, or ever saw in your life, walked up to you and told you that someone that you cared bout was dead, would you believe them, or would you need proof? I would need proof.

Originally posted by Surtur
What right do you have to create someone and then say they have to do everything you say? Please don't talk about being "shut down". There will be no shutting down dude, you need to settle down.

Also you know the thing about children is they eventually GROW UP. But God never dies, so he can never rise above him, which is what most parents WANT their kids to do.

You want to cite examples? This is like if you have a family of kids, then you go cheat and create a shitload more kids and you tell your first set of kids to basically obey you, but you let the second set run wild. Any "Father" who does that is the biggest piece of shit in the world, so what are you defending? As mass murderer? A deadbeat dad? What? God knows everything, he knew Satan would be a dick and still created the f*cker. That is all that needs to be said really.

I don't feel like I addressed this first part. My tone came from your lack of knowledge. According to the Bible God gave the lowest to the mightiest a will of their own. This includes the Angels that were created to be the mightiest. Let me ask you a question. If you had a wife, child, and many friends, but you had the power to make them love you, would you? Or, would you rather that they love you on their own? In the same way that Christian's can't blame Satan for their willful actions, God can not be blamed for the despotic, and evil acts of some of his/hers/it's disobedient sons. They made their choices and now have to live with them. All of the Angels knew the rules, but some of them willfully disobeyed them, because they were given a will to do what they wanted to do. We all have our own choices to make. I hope that you realize that you have both the capacity to do right, and the capacity to do wrong. Lucifer did wrong, and God gave him a chance to repent, but he would not. Lucifer committed the unpardonable sin of blasphemy. This is the only sin mentioned in the Bible that would not be forgiven.

Originally posted by Stoic
Ah. OK now I see what you are saying. I'm sorry but i think that i misunderstood you. You are holding the bible up to the standards of the people that follow it, but you should instead be holding the people that follow the bible up to the standards written within the Bible. The Bible clearly states that God will be the final judge. The Bible also pretty much teaches us to live, and let live. What the people often do that follow the bible is add their own little spin on things, and these little spins often leave people that are looking from the outside feeling a little standoffish. The Bible says to judge, but judge fairly. About judgement. The Bible states that God will make his children the Judges of all nations, so how much more should you judge these little things. Again it states to judge fairly. We all have our short comings, but pin the blame in the proper place. You are speaking of the people, not the practice. If not i would like you to show me one spot where the Bible contradicts itself, because we will then have to cross reference it with actual canonical evidence located in the book.

I understand what you are saying. For me though I would ask..what gives him the right to judge us? In our life, in the end, we do not answer to our parents, but ourselves. But then we also need to answer to someone we have never met and also someone who..despite the claims, does not seem to be "perfect". He has faults, he has blood on his hands, does he not?



I think you hit the nail on the head with the first sentence. That perfectly describes the teachers I had in grammar school and high school.

But if someone is the Son of God how is that different from the Children of God? The term "Son" would fall under the word "Children".



But for me, I think the person should be given the holy spirit automatically. The idea that a person has committed sin just by existing is strange to me. What has a baby sinned for? I was baptized as a baby, obviously I couldn't give permission, but I don't think I'd committed any sins, so what was there to forgive?



But again, this is where it gets weird to me. God created us..that means he gave us the urge for reproduction as well, and for some people that urge can be damn strong..and yet you get a list of rules for it. Even just the fact he gives rules..comes down to the fact he can give us rules because he created us and is more powerful then us.

I guess the big question is..if you create someone..or even billions of someone's..do you have the right to set rules for them? Or rather, do you have the right to punish them if they don't follow the rules you set?



I'm sure plenty of people have either lied or mislead things about the bible. But I also think you have to admit even at its core..it can be disturbing, and I'm not even talking about stuff from the book of revelations.

The other problem is..the bible is tainted by humans. There were a variety of gospels written that were not included for..whatever reason.



It depends on the person. If it was like a cop, I guess I'd believe, but I'd be asking questions. A random person though I'd probably need proof.

But then we go back to God and you ask about proof..but God is all about faith. So if I was a religious person that asked for proof of God, would that be wrong?

Originally posted by Stoic
I don't feel like I addressed this first part. My tone came from your lack of knowledge. According to the Bible God gave the lowest to the mightiest a will of their own. This includes the Angels that were created to be the mightiest. Let me ask you a question. If you had a wife, child, and many friends, but you had the power to make them love you, would you? Or, would you rather that they love you on their own? In the same way that Christian's can't blame Satan for their willful actions, God can not be blamed for the despotic, and evil acts of some of his/hers/it's disobedient sons. They made their choices and now have to live with them. All of the Angels knew the rules, but some of them willfully disobeyed them, because they were given a will to do what they wanted to do. We all have our own choices to make. I hope that you realize that you have both the capacity to do right, and the capacity to do wrong. Lucifer did wrong, and God gave him a chance to repent, but he would not. Lucifer committed the unpardonable sin of blasphemy. This is the only sin mentioned in the Bible that would not be forgiven.

But it seems like he gave different rules for the angels as compared to humans. If I had family and had the power to make them love me I wouldn't do it.

However, if I had the power to stamp out evil before it ever came into existence? I would.

Please get the devil's name right. The murdering bastard's name is Satan. Not Lucifer. He hasn't been "Lucifer" since he was kicked from Heaven.

Thought I'd post a response, it's been a minute since I posted on the KM forums.

Equality is a bunch of crap. Equality is only a matter of personal perspective. Religion is one of the main sources for an inequality between individuals as it sets a scale for behavior. With the existence of two conscious entities there is no longer equality, there is a comparison. If you are appealing to someone outside yourself for equality, you, yourself, are stating that there is not an equality. Also, if someone can grant "equality" then there is a substantive inequality.

Do you people notice equality in the nature and the universe?

Even in a human society, people are not equal in different aspects.

Equality is a social construct. It is fine for certain aspects of a human society but it is not applicable to the ground realities of the universe we are part of.

Satan cannot be God because he is not. Simple.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you people notice equality in the nature and the universe?

Even in a human society, people are not equal in different aspects.

Equality is a social construct. It is fine for certain aspects of a human society but it is not applicable to the ground realities of the universe we are part of.

Satan cannot be God because he is not. Simple.

Even simpler: Satan doesn't exist. He is just part of a story written by humans.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Even simpler: Satan doesn't exist. He is just part of a story written by humans.

It seems that Christians tend to blame "Satan" for their wrong doing. If a Christian does something wrong or right, they need to take some personal responsibility and quit blaming God or Satan for it.

Originally posted by Regret
It seems that Christians tend to blame "Satan" for their wrong doing. If a Christian does something wrong or right, they need to take some personal responsibility and quit blaming God or Satan for it.

We are in agreement!

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
We are in agreement!

We've been in agreement as long as I can remember on most things ;-)

Originally posted by Regret
It seems that Christians tend to blame "Satan" for their wrong doing. If a Christian does something wrong or right, they need to take some personal responsibility and quit blaming God or Satan for it.

It seems that you are generalizing. No one, thinks the same, or deals with things the same. This is something that you may want to think about before bunching everyone up, and slapping the the blame it on everything other than themselves tag. You have to also understand that people tend to grow in their minds, and that what they may be today, is not what they may be in 10 years from now. opinions like the one you have, can destroy your life, because unless you change, it will be just another rule that you tacked to yourself without seeing things for what they truly are. Huh? What? You don't get it? Not everyone is the same, and people can change, and do change when they learn that their path is wrong.

I agree that all people not just Christians need to own the crap that they do, and be responsible for their actions. Not everyone can or have been able to see this. but one day they may be able to. Everything is a learning process, so if you believe that you have no faults then continue lobbing stones. Not everyone lives in glass houses i guess.

Originally posted by Stoic
It seems that you are generalizing. No one, thinks the same, or deals with things the same. This is something that you may want to think about before bunching everyone up, and slapping the the blame it on everything other than themselves tag. You have to also understand that people tend to grow in their minds, and that what they may be today, is not what they may be in 10 years from now. opinions like the one you have, can destroy your life, because unless you change, it will be just another rule that you tacked to yourself without seeing things for what they truly are. Huh? What? You don't get it? Not everyone is the same, and people can change, and do change when they learn that their path is wrong.
I did generalize, hence the statement "Christians tend to..." In my experience it is a generalized statement to say that Christians blame the wrongs they do on either their physical failing as being "born in sin" and thus having a predisposition towards "sin" which is outside of their "spiritual self" or on the influence of a devil which is typically categorized as Satan.


Originally posted by Stoic
I agree that all people not just Christians need to own the crap that they do, and be responsible for their actions. Not everyone can or have been able to see this. but one day they may be able to. Everything is a learning process, so if you believe that you have no faults then continue lobbing stones. Not everyone lives in glass houses i guess.
I said nothing about myself being perfect. My statement was to the tendency stated above. I am not positive if you are speaking to something different with the statement that "people tend to grow in their minds, and that what they may be today, is not what they may be in 10 years from now."

Appealing to something, which is unseen, outside of the core self as a cause for incorrect behavior is a stumbling block to correcting the behavior by placing a part of the cause outside of one's own control. It allows an excuse. Regardless of whether Satan exists or not is irrelevant if you can behave differently. It's a factor that doesn't appear to be of any import.

Originally posted by Regret
I did generalize, hence the statement "Christians tend to..." In my experience it is a generalized statement to say that Christians blame the wrongs they do on either their physical failing as being "born in sin" and thus having a predisposition towards "sin" which is outside of their "spiritual self" or on the influence of a devil which is typically categorized as Satan.



I said nothing about myself being perfect. My statement was to the tendency stated above. I am not positive if you are speaking to something different with the statement that "people tend to grow in their minds, and that what they may be today, is not what they may be in 10 years from now."

Appealing to something, which is unseen, outside of the core self as a cause for incorrect behavior is a stumbling block to correcting the behavior by placing a part of the cause outside of one's own control. It allows an excuse. Regardless of whether Satan exists or not is irrelevant if you can behave differently. It's a factor that doesn't appear to be of any import.

Many Christians read the Bible, and apply only so much of it to their lives (it is a process), but as they grow in their understanding many come to realize that claiming ownership over their own failings is the path that the Bible teaches in abundance. Since you claim to agree with Shakyamunison which you yourself admitted, who are you to make any claims on whether or not Satan exists? And besides that little detail, your belief has nothing to do with the OP being presented in this thread.

Your first comment in and of itself had nothing to do with the OP, and is thus irrelevant here. Either answer the question that the OP asks, or continue trolling. I'm also not going to claim to know what you are, but if you are in fact an Atheist, what is it that you are trying to prove exactly? What, that you don't believe in God, or any of the teachings in the Bible? If so, good for you, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who do believe, and again that would be their rightful choice. Just like it is your right to believe in what you want to believe in. Have you ever read the Bible? Have you studied it?

Originally posted by Stoic
Many Christians read the Bible, and apply only so much of it to their lives (it is a process), but as they grow in their understanding many come to realize that claiming ownership over their own failings is the path that the Bible teaches in abundance. Since you claim to agree with Shakyamunison which you yourself admitted, who are you to make any claims on whether or not Satan exists? And besides that little detail, your belief has nothing to do with the OP being presented in this thread.

Your first comment in and of itself had nothing to do with the OP, and is thus irrelevant here. Either answer the question that the OP asks, or continue trolling. I'm also not going to claim to know what you are, but if you are in fact an Atheist, what is it that you are trying to prove exactly? What, that you don't believe in God, or any of the teachings in the Bible? If so, good for you, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who do believe, and again that would be their rightful choice. Just like it is your right to believe in what you want to believe in. Have you ever read the Bible? Have you studied it?

First, my first post dealt with the concept of equality, this directly relates to the OP.

Second, I am unsure as to where I stand currently as far as which religion I follow. I have education through schooling or ministers in the majority of Christian religions. I have also studied Islam, Judaism and most of the Eastern/asian religions.

Third, the OP referenced Christians, Muslims and "religious people"

Fourth, the final question in the OP is "Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?" There is nothing there to deny me my opinion/belief. I simply did not state what my religious affiliation, if there is one, was. I cannot decide if I fit in the grouping of "religious people", the term needs to be better defined.

I do not believe in equality. It is a nice concept and ideal to pursue, but it does not truly exist with regards to the treatment of conscious entities imo.

Originally posted by Regret
First, my first post dealt with the concept of equality, this directly relates to the OP.

Second, I am unsure as to where I stand currently as far as which religion I follow. I have education through schooling or ministers in the majority of Christian religions. I have also studied Islam, Judaism and most of the Eastern/asian religions.

Third, the OP referenced Christians, Muslims and "religious people"

Fourth, the final question in the OP is "Do religious people think that their Gods frown on the notions of equality of all people and is that why believers deny women and gays equality?" There is nothing there to deny me my opinion/belief. I simply did not state what my religious affiliation, if there is one, was. I cannot decide if I fit in the grouping of "religious people", the term needs to be better defined.

I do not believe in equality. It is a nice concept and ideal to pursue, but it does not truly exist with regards to the treatment of conscious entities imo.


I stand corrected. However, Satan, and heaven come from the Bible, and the OP mainly stems from whether or not Satan should have had equal rights in Heaven, and questions the legitimacy of these rights. You may have also taken note of the word tyranny? Well, are you as a parent a tyrant to your children, or anyone else that lives in you house, when you lay down ground rules for what is in fact yours? If i tell my children that I will not permit them to walk in my house with their shoes on, bring prostitutes, drugs, and all of their friends into my house, it is in fact my choice, and my right to make these rules. If I paid for the construction of my house, built it from the ground up, and take care of all of the bills, and food among other things in my house, should my requests in my house be respected? How would that make me a tyrant? What right would my child that built nothing at all, the one that i gave everything to have the right to turn around and tell me that they want to be the head of my house? Perhaps we see things differently, but like I said in a previous post, if my child or several of my children were murderers, liars, and other horrible things, and refused to turn from their ways, I would throw them out on their duffs as well. now since we don't know to full details of what exactly went on in heaven at the time of the exile, or before the event, we aren't in any position to judge gods actions, or judge why he will never again trust or forgive the fallen. The Bible does however state that the only unforgivable sin is the sin of blasphemy, so that may be a solid starting point of understanding God's stance on the events that lead to Satan's exile. As for claiming full responsibility of ones actions, many Christians do, while many blame all or a majority of their failings on Satan. When I began my Christian walk, I rad a book early on that helped me to understand what the Bible teaches about ownership of ones willful actions. I forget the books title, but the Author's name was Verbal Bean (weird name I know but whatever). There was a saying that he wrote that caught my attention. He wrote that the best way to become a reprobate was through self justification. I agreed whole heartily. and from that point I applied it to my life. Many have yet to come upon this way of thought, which is exactly why i said that we may not be the same people that we are today, in the next 10 yrs. I have to get going. Will reply to you when I can. i mean if you would like to continue our discussion. Perhaps you will teach me something as well. Take it easy friend.

I really have to get going, but I wanted to correct my quote of Verbal Bean before I forget it again. The exact quote was "The first steps towards becoming a reprobate, is through self justification". This is something that should not only resonate with Christians, but with everyone. Okay later.

Originally posted by Stoic
I stand corrected. However, Satan, and heaven come from the Bible,

Technically they come from christian/jewish tradition both of which predate the Bible for several decades at least.

Originally posted by Bentley
Technically they come from christian/jewish tradition both of which predate the Bible for several decades at least.

Technically? Tell me what books first canonized Heaven, Hell, Satan, Angels...etc? It's so easy to go off topic isn't it? This had very little to do with the point that I was making according to the OP, but you still managed to single out one sentence. Also i would like you to explain how it came from Christian/Jewish tradition? Christianity came after the Bible had begun to be written, which was far more than a couple of decades.

Originally posted by Stoic
Technically? Tell me what books first canonized Heaven, Hell, Satan, Angels...etc? It's so easy to go off topic isn't it? This had very little to do with the point that I was making according to the OP, but you still managed to single out one sentence. Also i would like you to explain how it came from Christian/Jewish tradition? Christianity came after the Bible had begun to be written, which was far more than a couple of decades.

I did not intend to upset you with my comment. As it can be considered off topic I'll just stop arguing on that line of thought.

Have a nice day.

Originally posted by Stoic
I stand corrected. However, Satan, and heaven come from the Bible, and the OP mainly stems from whether or not Satan should have had equal rights in Heaven, and questions the legitimacy of these rights. You may have also taken note of the word tyranny? Well, are you as a parent a tyrant to your children, or anyone else that lives in you house, when you lay down ground rules for what is in fact yours? If i tell my children that I will not permit them to walk in my house with their shoes on, bring prostitutes, drugs, and all of their friends into my house, it is in fact my choice, and my right to make these rules. If I paid for the construction of my house, built it from the ground up, and take care of all of the bills, and food among other things in my house, should my requests in my house be respected? How would that make me a tyrant? What right would my child that built nothing at all, the one that i gave everything to have the right to turn around and tell me that they want to be the head of my house? Perhaps we see things differently, but like I said in a previous post, if my child or several of my children were murderers, liars, and other horrible things, and refused to turn from their ways, I would throw them out on their duffs as well. now since we don't know to full details of what exactly went on in heaven at the time of the exile, or before the event, we aren't in any position to judge gods actions, or judge why he will never again trust or forgive the fallen. The Bible does however state that the only unforgivable sin is the sin of blasphemy, so that may be a solid starting point of understanding God's stance on the events that lead to Satan's exile.

I'll continue assuming a Christian-esque paradigm. The question of tyranny comes down to the extent to which existence is God's personal property in relationship to the ownership that is God's creation. Using your head of household analogy, I have a few questions:
At what point does a parent cross the line between acceptable control and unacceptable control?At some point a child is the equal of the parent, and the remaining inequality is a ceded inequality and not a true inequality. Is there a point where this is the case with God and his creation?Most Christians would answer "No" to the above. Given this, why?

I have been told by various Christians that I am going to hell. In response I often cite a positive position on the prospect due to the status of conscientious objector. I believe that, if a good man finds himself in hell, the system is unjust and it is the duty of good and honest people to stand against it.

The information that is given us with regard to the governance of Heaven in the Christian literature appears to justify a position against deity. The Christian God seems to rule in a manner that results in good people being punished based in the form of their behavior rather than the quality of their behavior. Actions that are equal with regards to a presumed scale of Good-Evil are mediated in measurement by an adherence to an underlying Christian theological frame. Thus a man who improves the world greatly, but does not hold a belief in deity, is viewed in lower regard than a man who improves the world very slightly, but holds to tenets of Christian theology that do nothing to improve the world. A position of equality would not take into account the extraneous details of the individual when measuring how good or evil their life is/was. If a ruler in our world behaved as the Christian God does, from most Christian positions, I would stand against that ruler.

Most religions tend to be cliquish. If you do not belong to their group, your life holds less value in some way. Equality exists, but you are a better person if you believe right, regardless of your actions and the result of your life. If you aren't with them, you are against them, and you will go to some place that is severely undesirable for being against them.

Originally posted by Regret
I'll continue assuming a Christian-esque paradigm. The question of tyranny comes down to the extent to which existence is God's personal property in relationship to the ownership that is God's creation. Using your head of household analogy, I have a few questions:
At what point does a parent cross the line between acceptable control and unacceptable control?At some point a child is the equal of the parent, and the remaining inequality is a ceded inequality and not a true inequality. Is there a point where this is the case with God and his creation?Most Christians would answer "No" to the above. Given this, why?

I have been told by various Christians that I am going to hell. In response I often cite a positive position on the prospect due to the status of conscientious objector. I believe that, if a good man finds himself in hell, the system is unjust and it is the duty of good and honest people to stand against it.

The information that is given us with regard to the governance of Heaven in the Christian literature appears to justify a position against deity. The Christian God seems to rule in a manner that results in good people being punished based in the form of their behavior rather than the quality of their behavior. Actions that are equal with regards to a presumed scale of Good-Evil are mediated in measurement by an adherence to an underlying Christian theological frame. Thus a man who improves the world greatly, but does not hold a belief in deity, is viewed in lower regard than a man who improves the world very slightly, but holds to tenets of Christian theology that do nothing to improve the world. A position of equality would not take into account the extraneous details of the individual when measuring how good or evil their life is/was. If a ruler in our world behaved as the Christian God does, from most Christian positions, I would stand against that ruler.

Most religions tend to be cliquish. If you do not belong to their group, your life holds less value in some way. Equality exists, but you are a better person if you believe right, regardless of your actions and the result of your life. If you aren't with them, you are against them, and you will go to some place that is severely undesirable for being against them.

But Christian teachings tell us that the world is evil. So, making the world a better place, under the Christian way of thinking, is a waist of time. This world will be destroyed according to the bible.

Originally posted by Regret
I'll continue assuming a Christian-esque paradigm. The question of tyranny comes down to the extent to which existence is God's personal property in relationship to the ownership that is God's creation. Using your head of household analogy, I have a few questions:
At what point does a parent cross the line between acceptable control and unacceptable control?At some point a child is the equal of the parent, and the remaining inequality is a ceded inequality and not a true inequality. Is there a point where this is the case with God and his creation?Most Christians would answer "No" to the above. Given this, why?

I have been told by various Christians that I am going to hell. In response I often cite a positive position on the prospect due to the status of conscientious objector. I believe that, if a good man finds himself in hell, the system is unjust and it is the duty of good and honest people to stand against it.

The information that is given us with regard to the governance of Heaven in the Christian literature appears to justify a position against deity. The Christian God seems to rule in a manner that results in good people being punished based in the form of their behavior rather than the quality of their behavior. Actions that are equal with regards to a presumed scale of Good-Evil are mediated in measurement by an adherence to an underlying Christian theological frame. Thus a man who improves the world greatly, but does not hold a belief in deity, is viewed in lower regard than a man who improves the world very slightly, but holds to tenets of Christian theology that do nothing to improve the world. A position of equality would not take into account the extraneous details of the individual when measuring how good or evil their life is/was. If a ruler in our world behaved as the Christian God does, from most Christian positions, I would stand against that ruler.

Most religions tend to be cliquish. If you do not belong to their group, your life holds less value in some way. Equality exists, but you are a better person if you believe right, regardless of your actions and the result of your life. If you aren't with them, you are against them, and you will go to some place that is severely undesirable for being against them.

It is acceptable to allow your child to know how much you care for them. It is not your responsibility to give them anything that does not belong to them, or even yourself. What about all of Lucifer's siblings? Didn't each and every one of them have the choice to ask for their equal portion as well? Why did he take it upon himself to demand anything? That's how I feel about the entire thing. What? Do you think that inviting someone into your house, mean that you intended to give them everything that you own? Lucifer wanted to rule the universe. However the universe already had a ruler, that was in their right to claim whatever it is that they created by their selves.

Tyranny? That's way too strong, because we have no way of proving that God was ever fully present with his creations. God is a spirit, and it may be that God rarely if ever took place in the actual affairs of his kingdom, but things were asked of God. There was always an answer, but sometimes that answer was no. There are several ways to look at things. God stands accused of many things, but when were the times that God was physically seen doing these things, and what did God do? Should we apply the leopard that was unable to change their spots analogy to everything else, but when it comes to God we just throw it out of the window? I'm talking about familiar spirits here. Jesus did everything that a person should do that claims to follow bible teachings. His personality, and purpose was of the very same personality or theme that the bible had taken on even before his birth. So in knowing that a leopard does not change their spots, we see how God would behave among his creations. was Jesus selfish? Evil? Tyrannical? Despotic? Envious? Justified in his perversions? Then what? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word later became flesh, and dwelt among us, but even in so doing, and even showing signs and authority, we still did not know him.

To understand all that needs to be learned in context to this subject, a person must learn of the true relationship that God had, and desired to have with his creations. Telling your child no sometimes, may have its merits after all. The bible says that wickedness was found inside of Lucifer. Perhaps this wickedness made God judge unfavorably to the idea of Lucifer's ability to run things properly. Listen the best guy for the job, should always be the one sitting at the desk.

Originally posted by Regret
I'll continue assuming a Christian-esque paradigm. The question of tyranny comes down to the extent to which existence is God's personal property in relationship to the ownership that is God's creation. Using your head of household analogy, I have a few questions:
At what point does a parent cross the line between acceptable control and unacceptable control?At some point a child is the equal of the parent, and the remaining inequality is a ceded inequality and not a true inequality. Is there a point where this is the case with God and his creation?Most Christians would answer "No" to the above. Given this, why?

I have been told by various Christians that I am going to hell. In response I often cite a positive position on the prospect due to the status of conscientious objector. I believe that, if a good man finds himself in hell, the system is unjust and it is the duty of good and honest people to stand against it.

The information that is given us with regard to the governance of Heaven in the Christian literature appears to justify a position against deity. The Christian God seems to rule in a manner that results in good people being punished based in the form of their behavior rather than the quality of their behavior. Actions that are equal with regards to a presumed scale of Good-Evil are mediated in measurement by an adherence to an underlying Christian theological frame. Thus a man who improves the world greatly, but does not hold a belief in deity, is viewed in lower regard than a man who improves the world very slightly, but holds to tenets of Christian theology that do nothing to improve the world. A position of equality would not take into account the extraneous details of the individual when measuring how good or evil their life is/was. If a ruler in our world behaved as the Christian God does, from most Christian positions, I would stand against that ruler.

Most religions tend to be cliquish. If you do not belong to their group, your life holds less value in some way. Equality exists, but you are a better person if you believe right, regardless of your actions and the result of your life. If you aren't with them, you are against them, and you will go to some place that is severely undesirable for being against them.


Also the bible clearly states that we are not justified by our works, but instead by our faith. This means that there is nothing that we can do to impress God. It also means that there isn't much that we can actually do to be saved. According to what the bible teaches.

Also those religions are based on legality. The bible does say that a believer should not be unequally yolked to an unbeliever. For example, if you marry someone that has a different belief system than you do, it will be a very tough relationship, because the couples involved would have way too many disagreements. Just an example BTW. What i see in the bible are often warnings, and even though they may at times hurt our feelings or put us off, we need to weigh them out for what they are. I mean we have to follow similar rules in society, so then why not also consider opinions that may diverge from our own in the bible? There is a multitude of people who have yet to crack a bible open, but due to popular opinion, they play follow the leader. Just look at many of the people that opposed Obama just because someone said that he was a horrible President.

Originally posted by Stoic
Also those religions are based on legality. The bible does say that a believer should not be unequally yolked to an unbeliever. For example, if you marry someone that has a different belief system than you do, it will be a very tough relationship, because the couples involved would have way too many disagreements. Just an example BTW. What i see in the bible are often warnings, and even though they may at times hurt our feelings or put us off, we need to weigh them out for what they are. I mean we have to follow similar rules in society, so then why not also consider opinions that may diverge from our own in the bible? There is a multitude of people who have yet to crack a bible open, but due to popular opinion, they play follow the leader. Just look at many of the people that opposed Obama just because someone said that he was a horrible President.

What about what the Koran says?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What about what the Koran says?

I don't know the Koran, and have yet to form an opinion on the religion. However, what does the Koran have to do with Judaism, Christianity, or Catholicism? What's with the encroachment? Things written in the bible were not written in express purpose to correlate with Islam or it's beliefs. This isn't to insult one, or place one above the other, but it is more of a general statement that serves to highlight the differences in both belief systems. The bible says not to be unequally yolked to non believers. There is a reason for this. Neither side would ever agree on much until they either left their own system of belief, or that both simply stopped believing altogether. This is also how denomination began in the churches themselves. Key words* Systems of belief. Do you want to explore the differences between different belief systems? I don't get it?

Originally posted by Stoic
I don't know the Koran, and have yet to form an opinion on the religion. However, what does the Koran have to do with Judaism, Christianity, or Catholicism? What's with the encroachment? Things written in the bible were not written in express purpose to correlate with Islam or it's beliefs. This isn't to insult one, or place one above the other, but it is more of a general statement that serves to highlight the differences in both belief systems. The bible says not to be unequally yolked to non believers. There is a reason for this. Neither side would ever agree on much until they either left their own system of belief, or that both simply stopped believing altogether. This is also how denomination began in the churches themselves. Key words* Systems of belief. Do you want to explore the differences between different belief systems? I don't get it?

The Koran is another book just like the bible.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The Koran is another book just like the bible.

It has nothing to do with the OP though. The Koran did not canonize biblical verses. It has no place here. For instance their Shaitan, and god could be originated from two entirely different educational entities or sources. So yeah Islam really has no place here. The Koran is not of bible canon.

Originally posted by Stoic
It has nothing to do with the OP though. The Koran did not canonize biblical verses. It has no place here. For instance their Shaitan, and god could be originated from two entirely different educational entities or sources. So yeah Islam really has no place here. The Koran is not of bible canon.

The OP doesn't say anything about the bible.