DC Captain Marvel Vs Orion

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riv6672
Curious about how showings/power ups (or downs) pre and post DCnu affect/dont affect your call on the outcome.

1. Pre DCnu (no prep or BFR)

2. Current DCnu (no prep or BFR)

abhilegend
Orion in both.

Stoic
Was thinking about this one myself. I think Captain Marvel can take him.

Golgo13
Orion.

riv6672
Personally, i'm with Stoic, but i'm admittedly not impressed by Orion.
I know we have fans for both him and CM here though.

Golgo13
Originally posted by riv6672
Personally, i'm with Stoic, but i'm admittedly not impressed by Orion.
I know we have fans for both him and CM here though.

The MB can revert SHAZAM back to a boy. Forgot what issue, but Orion with the MB is a lot more versatile than Billy.

celeyhyga17
O'Ryan

riv6672
Is there a scan of the MB doing that?
If so, just shoot this thread in the head! laughing out loud

carver9
Captain Marvel wins.

Golgo13
Originally posted by riv6672
Is there a scan of the MB doing that?
If so, just shoot this thread in the head! laughing out loud

Searching now. Orion has had some good fights against Superman. He's a better fighter than Billy, has a more powerful energy projection, and can heal, turn intangible via the MB. Along with a lot of other tricks. It's a solid win for Orion, IMO.

Khazra Reborn
Orion ftw. Quite a bit tougher IMO.

beatboks
Originally posted by Golgo13
The MB can revert SHAZAM back to a boy. Forgot what issue, but Orion with the MB is a lot more versatile than Billy.

Are u sure, I know he used the MB to access Shazam's power when he couldnt. That doesnt automatically transfer to say he could be transformed back by it though. Also would Orion even know he has that capability?

I agree Orion takes it, just not that way.

riv6672
Ah, a misinterpretation.
No worries.
Like i said, not an Orion fan but, if he takes this, he takes this. stick out tongue

shadowknight
ORION win this

leonidas
surprised by this. i'd say it's pretty damn close to a split in the predcnu days. less sure about current versions. i'd give cm maybe a 5.5/10 majority. as bad as the astro-force can be for cm, the lightning would be at least as bad for orion. if he starts charging his punches he's stronger, faster and i'd give him the edge in durability though it's pretty slight.

riv6672
Thats what i thought too, but the CM fans just didnt show up to add anything this time out.

beatboks
Originally posted by leonidas
surprised by this. i'd say it's pretty damn close to a split in the predcnu days. less sure about current versions. i'd give cm maybe a 5.5/10 majority. as bad as the astro-force can be for cm, the lightning would be at least as bad for orion. if he starts charging his punches he's stronger, faster and i'd give him the edge in durability though it's pretty slight.

Lightning charged punches are only from the animated universe DCU line not canon for standard DCU as far as I recall. Titles like "Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam" and "Shazam and the Monster Society of Evil".

In DCU proper (pre Nu52) the only way he can use the lightning as a weapon is to say Shazam and out move the lightning. This would depend on his adversary being at the point the lightning was going to strike. NU52, I have no clue.

Also not so Sure on the Durability front. In stamina and endurance abso freaking lutely Billy has the edge (pretty much how he always gets the best of BA who is superior in strength and durability). Orion has after all tanked things that cause serious damage to most new god's.

abhilegend
Originally posted by beatboks
Lightning charged punches are only from the animated universe DCU line not canon for standard DCU as far as I recall. Titles like "Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam" and "Shazam and the Monster Society of Evil".

In DCU proper (pre Nu52) the only way he can use the lightning as a weapon is to say Shazam and out move the lightning. This would depend on his adversary being at the point the lightning was going to strike. NU52, I have no clue.

Also not so Sure on the Durability front. In stamina and endurance abso freaking lutely Billy has the edge (pretty much how he always gets the best of BA who is superior in strength and durability). Orion has after all tanked things that cause serious damage to most new god's.
Cap has used lightning amped punches several times in preboot canon. Also he has never got the better of Adam and neither is Adam stronger or more durable than him.

Cap/Adam are absolutely equal in every aspect to the point they can turn each other in human by tricking them into the path of lightning of other. The sheer notion of Adam being stronger than Cap is absurd.

leonidas
pretty much thumb up at all that.

riv6672
I have to agree with that, too.

beatboks
Originally posted by abhilegend
Cap has used lightning amped punches several times in preboot canon. Also he has never got the better of Adam and neither is Adam stronger or more durable than him.

Cap/Adam are absolutely equal in every aspect to the point they can turn each other in human by tricking them into the path of lightning of other. The sheer notion of Adam being stronger than Cap is absurd.

When has Cap used such punches OTHER than the series I mentioned?

If Cap has never gotten the Better of BA then why did BA fail to take the power of the ROE earlier and raise his love from the dead?? In a straight up fight no Cap has never beaten Billy, but he has out lasted him to be the victor.

So if Cap and BA are equal in every respect answer me these.

1. Why is BA not lowered in power the same way Cap is when others of the marvel family power up??

2. Why is that Cap was asked by Wally if he has a connection to the speed force when BA has been clearly show bellow such speeds.

3. Why has BA been able to do physical damage to Billy but the reverse has never occurred (remember Shazam the New begining issue 4 page 10).

4.There's also the time BA "knocked teh wind out of Cap, because billy "forgot how strong he was". How would he forget if they were true "equals in every respect"

5. Why did Superman state when he fought BA that he hits stronger than Cap.

7. Why was BA able to defeat Freddy WITH all the power of the Wizard as "lord Marvel ( a power up)

7. Why has BA shown the ability to resist TP ( MMH in WWIII, Brainwave in Black Reign) with ease while Billy has succumb ( also in black Reign Brainwave made Billy traqnsform)

I'd go on a few more but that's enough.

Cap get's powers from

Solomon - wisdom
Hercules - Strength
Archiles - invulnerability
Zues - power
Atlas - stamina / self sustenence
Mercury - speed

BA gets powers from

Shu - Invulnerability
Heru - speed/flight
Amon - strength
Aton - enhances physical abilities and invulnerability
Mehen - inner strength

Simple fact is Aton enhances his physical abilities. The difference isn't much but it is there, slight edges this way and that in powers. Slight differences.

riv6672
In a power set discussion yes; in a matter of feats, no.

leonidas
i'm not gonna talk about dcnu where i've seen both but neither enough to really want to discuss them. in pre-nu, they were absolutely equal in all ways. cm does power share though so at times comes across weaker. when he is at full power they are certainly equal, and i might even say cm is the better of the 2. ba is more vicious though. cm has hurt ba to many times to bother discussing so i'll assume that was dcnu related. an obvious use of charged punches comes from his ko'ing of superman, but there are others but i'd need to look to find them. and he can use his lightning at a distance as well, but it wouldn't matter as orion would close h2h and then get blasted, regardless.

i don't know who wins how many in dcnu, but in pre-nu i'd still take cm for a very small majority.

oh, and on at least one occasion, he has used the power of zeus to augment his other stats....always made me wonder why he didn't do it more often.

beatboks
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not gonna talk about dcnu where i've seen both but neither enough to really want to discuss them. in pre-nu, they were absolutely equal in all ways. cm does power share though so at times comes across weaker. when he is at full power they are certainly equal, and i might even say cm is the better of the 2. ba is more vicious though. cm has hurt ba to many times to bother discussing so i'll assume that was dcnu related. an obvious use of charged punches comes from his ko'ing of superman, but there are others but i'd need to look to find them. and he can use his lightning at a distance as well, but it wouldn't matter as orion would close h2h and then get blasted, regardless.

i don't know who wins how many in dcnu, but in pre-nu i'd still take cm for a very small majority.

oh, and on at least one occasion, he has used the power of zeus to augment his other stats....always made me wonder why he didn't do it more often.

I've not read any DCNU of either so I'm not discussing that. I do however have a very good collection of all the pre 52 post COIE appearances of both (not really missing much).

Each of the instances I've mentioned there were when he wasn't power sharing. At least in relation to the comparisons of BA and Cap. the reference I made to one of cap's "victories" was definitely a power sharing one. That was from POS where Cap and BA start fighting over a farm. Cap wishes he could make Mary and Freddy depower but can't. BA Broke Cap's arm (or dislocated his shoulder, it was in a sling for the rest of the arc). Despite being at 1/3 power Cap had the endurance and self sustenance to keep going with the injury and eventually stop BA from his aim.

So as an example Cap and SUpes Fight was when only Cap was powered and an entity made Superman see Cyborg Supes and Cap saw BA. So Cap wasn't holding back when HE punched Superman yet Supes clearly thinks

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111130955/3539752-1323881-ba_survives_supes_punch.jpg

That BA hit's harder than Cap. Cap was all out because he believed he was fighting BA, so it wasn't for that reason. This is but one of the examples mentioned.

leonidas
still not buying it. cap and superman have shared powers and superman was practically in awe of cap's power. he's even stated that cap has the edge on him because of magic. if you want to suggest ba>cm, i'll just have to disagree. there have been times where it may seem that way because of the way ba fights, but i don't see him being more powerful. rather it's just billy's nature to hold back most of the time while ba almost never does. i'm afraid that a single instance where supes says otherwise isn't going to convince me--especially when he is famous for saying stuff like that all the time.

riv6672
Someone needs to gather all the Super compliments. He's good at those.
But yeah, the way BA fights does make it come across as him being more powerful sometimes.

Golgo13
Has Billy ever went up against someone on Darkseid's level?

carver9
No but he has went against Superman for us to know where he stands.

abhilegend
Originally posted by beatboks
When has Cap used such punches OTHER than the series I mentioned? JLA 29, Hawkman 24, Infinite Crisis where Adam did it and several other instances from Adam like where he drove through Spectre.. Because at that time Cap had power of the wizard and was much more powerful than usual. I would love to see Cap out lasting Adam. Go ahead. Like when he was weakened when he shared power with Osiris and again in the last JSA comic he appeared in? Because Billy had a lightning motif on his chest and was very fast. It's also from a different writer. Under Johns Wally would smoke Billy too. In fact when Wally went back in time to fight anti monitor, Billy couldn't even see him.

3. Why has BA been able to do physical damage to Billy but the reverse has never occurred (remember Shazam the New begining issue 4 page 10). Not canon. It was retconned by Shazam graphic novel.

4.There's also the time BA "knocked teh wind out of Cap, because billy "forgot how strong he was". How would he forget if they were true "equals in every respect" That's some weird logic. He forgot because he hadn't fought Adam for a long time at that point. That's one odd instance where Gail Simone admitted that she erred in thinking that Adam was stronger and overall more powerful in general. It's an odd instance just like Captain Nazi overpowering Adam who Cap beats the shit out of in general.

7. Why was BA able to defeat Freddy WITH all the power of the Wizard as "lord Marvel ( a power up) What? He shot Billy with a special stone which weakened him. He never fought Freddy. Because Teth has more willpower. It has nothing to do with power. Oh really? Man, those are some weak sauce logic for you to discard years of continuity. There is no difference at all. Zeus' power amps Cap too. They are absolutely equal in every way. These tangents will not negate years of continuity.

Golgo13
Originally posted by carver9
No but he has went against Superman for us to know where he stands.

I'd say killing Darkseid or ripping out his heart is above anything Billy has done.

leonidas
billy faces different style guys--he's doesn't fight the cosmic types supes does, but that doesn't mean he couldn't do as well, or nearly as well. cm is NOT superman, but i do believe he is as close in dc as anyone is. he also fights uber magical beings that would give supes fits. the sins come to mind. i mean seriously, he MAY have the very worst rogue's gallery in comics. sivana has been updated recently and turned into a true beast, but many of his other enemies are just....ridiculous. he has answered the bell against beings like satanus and blaze though.

Golgo13
Originally posted by leonidas
billy faces different style guys--he's doesn't fight the cosmic types supes does, but that doesn't mean he couldn't do as well, or nearly as well. cm is NOT superman, but i do believe he is as close in dc as anyone is. he also fights uber magical beings that would give supes fits. the sins come to mind. i mean seriously, he MAY have the very worst rogue's gallery in comics. sivana has been updated recently and turned into a true beast, but many of his other enemies are just....ridiculous. he has answered the bell against beings like satanus and blaze though.

Orion and Superman are about even. Metron has stated as much. And their fights are generally about even.

carver9
Originally posted by Golgo13
Orion and Superman are about even. Metron has stated as much. And their fights are generally about even.

And Supes himself has said him and Billy are equals.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/100692/2038250-superman_captain_marvel_equals.jpg

Golgo13
He didn't want to make Billy cry. stick out tongue

carver9
Lol...ok.

beatboks
Originally posted by leonidas
still not buying it. cap and superman have shared powers and superman was practically in awe of cap's power. he's even stated that cap has the edge on him because of magic. if you want to suggest ba>cm, i'll just have to disagree. there have been times where it may seem that way because of the way ba fights, but i don't see him being more powerful. rather it's just billy's nature to hold back most of the time while ba almost never does. i'm afraid that a single instance where supes says otherwise isn't going to convince me--especially when he is famous for saying stuff like that all the time.

I'm not staring that BA > Cap. Overall they are equal, just not power for power. BA has a strength edge which continuity supports. Cap a speed edge. Cap has wisdom where BA is more like knowledge (particularly in things like magic that Billy hasn't shown). On the whole they are definitely equals just not power for power.

leonidas
i think that series was the best portrayal of interaction between them that dc ever put out tbh.

riv6672
It was pretty good, yeah thumb up

beatboks
for most of that arc Billy was depowered by the fact that his sister and Freddy were powered up. Yes Ibis unfettered the ROE at the end by removing the deadly sins but this still didn't take the Marvels to the levels they would be when at full power (with only one powered)

I'll look into your issues, I've not seen it. It's interesting that when evidence is offered to show something with you it's always "that writer was wrong".

He other dozens of examples I could have used were also across "years of continuity" since the last retcon of both. Pre "Shazam a new Beginning" there were never variations or deviations between the two.

Branlor Swift
Beatcox you keep using "Billy" instead of "Adam" and it's giving me half a tumor.

riv6672
Huh. Have to do some Googling...

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Beatcox you keep using "Billy" instead of "Adam" and it's giving me half a tumor.

Beatboks, keep going thumb up

riv6672
Heh.

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