Out of ALL the DC Heralds, who gives Superman the best fight?

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Golgo13
Orion
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Captain Atom
Firestorm
Flash (Barry and Wally)
Mon-El
Supergirl
Power Girl
Captain Marvel
Black Adam

riv6672
I'd say Captain Marvel, ( comparable speed, strength, invulnerability, superior wisdom and energy attack due to magic) though i'm sure people will disagree.

carver9
DCNU characters or DCU?

carver9
If this is DCNU then I would say Orion. They are equals and anyone of them could pull the majority against the other. Wonder Woman as well. She is top tier right now. Captain Atom would destroy him. He is a trans right now. The rest, DCNU, I would give Supes the majority.

riv6672
So, CA is disqualified then?

Golgo13
Pre-Flashpoint.

carver9
Pre Flashpoint? Well, a lot of people on that list, it's debatable. They are either his equal or below him. The ones I would give him a majority against are...

Captain Atom
Martian Manhunter
Wonder Woman
Supergirl
Powergirl
Mon-el

riv6672
Ah. Definitely CM.

Khazra Reborn
IMO Captain Atom could take a majority, and Orion looked better in the short scuffle him and Supes had, but that was far from definitive.

carver9
Their pre reboot fight?

Khazra Reborn
Oops, nevermind, thought this was DCnU.

Sin I AM
Gotta say Billy and even then it's hard to say cause when clark takes his gloves off he's honestly above everyone here

Branlor Swift
Darkseid

Magic Joe
Batman

Mindset
African American Adam.

riv6672
Originally posted by Mindset
African American Adam.
Why Adam and not Marvel? Power set? Fighting style? Coolness factor?

Mindset
Originally posted by riv6672
Why Adam and not Marvel? Power set? Fighting style? Coolness factor? It should be pretty self-explanatory.

"Id"
Black Adam

carver9
Originally posted by Mindset
African American Adam.

laughing out loud

Surtur
Originally posted by carver9
If this is DCNU then I would say Orion. They are equals and anyone of them could pull the majority against the other. Wonder Woman as well. She is top tier right now..

Wonder Woman certainly isn't beating Superman. You also say Orion is Superman's equal. Which comic did Nu Orion show high end super speed in?

EDIT: Even worse if this is pre Flashpoint, Orion gets casually blitzed, and Wonder Woman surely isn't taking on Supes either.

Star428
Originally posted by Surtur
Wonder Woman certainly isn't beating Superman. You also say Orion is Superman's equal. Which comic did Nu Orion show high end super speed in?

EDIT: Even worse if this is pre Flashpoint, Orion gets casually blitzed, and Wonder Woman surely isn't taking on Supes either.


Yeah, I agree. If this is pre-DCnU then very few on that list could realistically beat a non-holding back Superman in a majority. CM, BA, and MM would have the best chances, imo. A big laughing at Wonder Woman beating him. CA wouldn't beat him either.

Stoic
Doomsday is the only one that can really take a beating from Superman, and fight him evenly (Pre Nu52 that is).

Surtur
Originally posted by Stoic
Doomsday is the only one that can really take a beating from Superman, and fight him evenly (Pre Nu52 that is).

Assuming that Supes forgets he has super speed like he did in the comic when he fought Doomsday.

Khazra Reborn
DCnU Superman blitzed Orion, and he pretty much laughed it off. Granted it was a pretty brief encounter.

carver9
Originally posted by Surtur
Wonder Woman certainly isn't beating Superman. You also say Orion is Superman's equal. Which comic did Nu Orion show high end super speed in?

EDIT: Even worse if this is pre Flashpoint, Orion gets casually blitzed, and Wonder Woman surely isn't taking on Supes either.

You might want to look at their fight before quoting me. Looking at it, imo, Orion was winning.

Hyperion Prime
Originally posted by Golgo13
Orion
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Captain Atom
Firestorm
Flash (Barry and Wally)
Mon-El
Supergirl
Power Girl
Captain Marvel
Black Adam

I always thought it would be Orion or Black Adam. I could never give it to Captain Marvel. He just seems to be Black Adam light.

How many times has Orion Pre DCNU ever been beat by Superman? Wasn't it only once and every other time a draw.

cdtm
Flash wins 10/10.

At their best, a Flash spites the whole group, Superman included.

Khazra Reborn
I'm not sure if Pre-FP Superman has any clean wins on Orion, he might have some that I'm not aware of, but Orion knocked out Superman once using the Astro Force.

Star428
I overlooked Orion somehow. I agree that he'd have just as much if not more of a chance of beating Superman than those other 3 I mentioned. Remember though, that Superman has defeated Darkseid himself (or rather a very powerful avatar if you believe that instead)and I think we can all agree that DS or even one of his more powerful avatars is >>>Orion.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Surtur
Wonder Woman certainly isn't beating Superman. You also say Orion is Superman's equal. Which comic did Nu Orion show high end super speed in?

EDIT: Even worse if this is pre Flashpoint, Orion gets casually blitzed, and Wonder Woman surely isn't taking on Supes either.
It's Carver. Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
IMO Captain Atom could take a majority, and Orion looked better in the short scuffle him and Supes had, but that was far from definitive.
In the very same comic, Superman was said to be more powerful than Orion. He was holding back while Orion was trying to kill him. Despite that Superman hit him harder than anybody else who hit him.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
DCnU Superman blitzed Orion, and he pretty much laughed it off. Granted it was a pretty brief encounter. Parasite laughed off a blitz from Superman too. Also Orion started the fight with a huge suckerpunch on a hallucinating superman who hit him harder than he has ever been hit.

abhilegend
Originally posted by cdtm
Flash wins 10/10.

At their best, a Flash spites the whole group, Superman included.
No version of comic flash though. Forum flash might. Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
I'm not sure if Pre-FP Superman has any clean wins on Orion, he might have some that I'm not aware of, but Orion knocked out Superman once using the Astro Force.
It was a surprise attack according to Superman. He also oneshotted Orion in the very next page.

Golgo13
Originally posted by abhilegend
No version of comic flash though. Forum flash might.
It was a surprise attack according to Superman. He also oneshotted Orion in the very next page.

What is your opinion on this thread?

abhilegend
It's a stupid thread.

sneer

Golgo13
Originally posted by abhilegend
It's a great thread. Why didn't I think of it myself?

sneer

thumb up

cdtm
Originally posted by abhilegend
No version of comic flash though. Forum flash might.
It was a surprise attack according to Superman. He also oneshotted Orion in the very next page.

Wally could. Superman was in that group of heroes when Wally was lending speed and blitzing through Anti Monitor's armor, and nobody saw him.

Khazra Reborn
Originally posted by abhilegend
Parasite laughed off a blitz from Superman too. Also Orion started the fight with a huge suckerpunch on a hallucinating superman who hit him harder than he has ever been hit.

You can try to explain away all you want, and I'm not going to try and make that fight out to be more than it was, it was definitely very short and anything could have happened in the long run. But, from what was shown Orion clearly looked better, there's no dancing around that.

Khazra Reborn
Originally posted by abhilegend
It was a surprise attack according to Superman. He also oneshotted Orion in the very next page.

How could you possibly call that a surprise attack? Superman hit Orion first.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
How could you possibly call that a surprise attack? Superman hit Orion first.

thumb up

Here are some Orion/Superman fights.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/pic003-1.jpg
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SVO2_zpscqghupij.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/pic005-1.jpg

Also, the Jim Starlin one.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SVO4_zps5yiiblgk.jpg
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SVO5_zpskjn82dqw.jpg
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SVO6_zpsi7d4xrpa.jpg

Sin I AM
Never cared for Orion and i knoe he's bad ass. Just never really liked em

Golgo13
Also, the DCnU one, because it was a cool battle.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SVO7_zpsqid2uyiv.jpg
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SVO8_zpszib7dyfp.jpg
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SVO9_zpsfyyagz8m.jpg
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SVO10_zps8fkvwnhf.jpg

Star428
^Holy s***! Talk about an @$$ kicking.

abhilegend
Originally posted by cdtm
Wally could. Superman was in that group of heroes when Wally was lending speed and blitzing through Anti Monitor's armor, and nobody saw him.
Byrne Superman who was vastly slower than current superman? And taking Wally at his highest showing ever? OK. If we play the same game to Superman, Wally would get oneshotted right as the fight starts. Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
You can try to explain away all you want, and I'm not going to try and make that fight out to be more than it was, it was definitely very short and anything could have happened in the long run. But, from what was shown Orion clearly looked better, there's no dancing around that.
Except Superman was actually deemed better than Orion in raw power and was actually stated to be holding back the whole fight while Orion was bloodlusted. So no, he did not look better despite sucker punching Superman. Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
How could you possibly call that a surprise attack? Superman hit Orion first.
Because superman actually spelled it out for us.

http://i.imgur.com/dtEs2eR.jpg
Also he says that "Orion has surprised him twice". In the very next issue he tanked a continuous barrage of omega beams and even though he was far worse than when Astro force attack, he wasn't koed.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/Supermanconfidential010_13.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/Supermanconfidential010_14.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/Supermanconfidential010_16.jpg

abhilegend
Case in point, Superman was stated to be most powerful being on the planet in the very same issue and that's why Hammond chose him.
http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/fangirl102009/3061282-2013-05-2207-53-15-superman2011-020-012_zpszxfpo4yj.jpg

cdtm
Originally posted by abhilegend
Byrne Superman who was vastly slower than current superman? And taking Wally at his highest showing ever? OK. If we play the same game to Superman, Wally would get oneshotted right as the fight starts.

Chain Lightning happened in 1999. Just because Wally time skipped back to the post reboot crisis, doesn't make it Byrne Superman. Different writer, different rules.

As a general Flash speed feat, this isn't the best.. Outrunning Death would be up there. Or how about crossing the universe as fast as it takes someone to teleport?

But the question is who could beat Superman in a fight, not who can beat him in a race... Wally doesn't need to be faster then Supes, when he could just permanently steal his speed like he did to Inertia, or vibrate organs out of how body (Even in his slower days, Wally was able to vibrate out of Supermans grip during that race Mxy forced on them..)

Star428
I see that people are still spreading the "Flash is some ubergod" nonsense. LOL.

cdtm
When you put half the board on ignore, you're bound to miss some feats. Or in this case, all of them.

Insane Titan
Orion, Captain Marvel, Black Adam and Wonder Woman all give Superman a good fight

abhilegend
Originally posted by cdtm
Chain Lightning happened in 1999. Just because Wally time skipped back to the post reboot crisis, doesn't make it Byrne Superman. Different writer, different rules.

As a general Flash speed feat, this isn't the best.. Outrunning Death would be up there. Or how about crossing the universe as fast as it takes someone to teleport?

But the question is who could beat Superman in a fight, not who can beat him in a race... Wally doesn't need to be faster then Supes, when he could just permanently steal his speed like he did to Inertia, or vibrate organs out of how body (Even in his slower days, Wally was able to vibrate out of Supermans grip during that race Mxy forced on them..)
Of course it does. Byrne Superman fought in COIE as per the timeline. It's nonsensical to think otherwise.

Flash doesn't go around beating superman level guys. You'd to go picking showings in once in a decade for that to happen. I can show you ten showings where a superman level being beat the shit out of flash than vice versa. Just because the forum says best showings doesn't means we throw out 90% of a character's history. This is the guy who has trouble with Rogues FFS.

Wally can always self BFR him at the end of time. And ask for entire earth to run while he tries to absorb their speed.

Oh, we're taking one feat as an average and generalized every feat there is. Not to mention OOC tactics. Well, I said comic flash not CBR Flash, did I? In general Wally is more of a jobber than even j'onn. Even Geoff Johns, the biggest Flash fanboy there is didn't write Flash able to beat Superman. What does that tells you?

abhilegend
Originally posted by cdtm
When you put half the board on ignore, you're bound to miss some feats. Or in this case, all of them.
I sure as hell missed all those comics where a bad guy beats down Superman, only for Wally to steal all their speed/vibrate their organs out/straight up beat them/IMPing them to hell.

Didn't knew Flash was JLA's heavy hitter instead of Superman. Just like J'onn. Imagine my surprise.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Insane Titan
Orion, Captain Marvel, Black Adam and Wonder Woman all give Superman a good fight

Yeah, Adam too.

Star428
Originally posted by Insane Titan
Orion, Captain Marvel, Black Adam and Wonder Woman all give Superman a good fight


If we're talking pre-DCnU and Superman is not holding back (or hallucinating) then WW doesn't have a chance in Hell regardless of whether she's holding back or not.

carver9
Originally posted by Star428
^Holy s***! Talk about an @$$ kicking.

That wasn't the end of the fight. Orion was punching through the ship unharmed, ready to fight Superman but Superman looked worse for wear in that fight. Also, Orion tanked Superman blitz in that fight. Tanked it with a smile.

carver9
Originally posted by abhilegend
Case in point, Superman was stated to be most powerful being on the planet in the very same issue and that's why Hammond chose him.
http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/fangirl102009/3061282-2013-05-2207-53-15-superman2011-020-012_zpszxfpo4yj.jpg

Orion isn't from Earth and how would Hammond know about Orion power level?

riv6672
Makes a twisted kind of sense...stick out tongue

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by carver9
Orion isn't from Earth and how would Hammond know about Orion power level?
On the planet not from that planet. WW, Orion, CA and MM are also on the planet.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
On the planet not from that planet. WW, Orion, CA and MM are also on the planet.

As are Phantom Stranger, Zauriel (at the time), Spectre, Swamp Thing etc....

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
As are Phantom Stranger, Zauriel (at the time), Spectre, Swamp Thing etc....

thumb up Everything comes from Superman, infinite strength infinite potential.

cdtm
Originally posted by carver9
Orion isn't from Earth and how would Hammond know about Orion power level?

And New Gods are virtully immune to martian level telepathy, so he couldn't have read his mind.

cdtm
Originally posted by abhilegend
Of course it does. Byrne Superman fought in COIE as per the timeline. It's nonsensical to think otherwise.

1.Byrne Superman wasn't all that slow. Hal froze time froze Earth, and Superman as Clark Kent was still moving around.

2. This writer isn't Byrne. Different writers write difterently, duh. When Johns writes Sinesto in a flashback before coie, he doesn't write him as the clown of the era Ollie koed, he writes him as the baddass he established.



Wally has the showings, as does Barry. Fights are less important then feats,, as they're often political. Many writers such as Starlin have said how DC orders them to treat their flagship character with respect.



Speed manipulation is a completely valid, in character tactic for any Flash. Wally's done in to win fights, Jay's done it against Superman. And while time dumps.aren't in character, speed force dumps are.

carver9
Flash was about to stop Superman speed here but he didn't do it because of civilians and collateral damage.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/7604/1164958-flashv2209p011.jpg

Surtur
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
DCnU Superman blitzed Orion, and he pretty much laughed it off. Granted it was a pretty brief encounter.

So Superman blitzed and hit him thousands upon thousands of times in the blink of an eye, and he laughed it off? OR..did Supes just hit him a bunch of times in rapid succession(but nowhere near thousands)?

Supes rarely uses his speed, and even when he does he rarely uses every ounce of it. Given Orion is not currently dead in comics something tells me he didn't use every ounce of his speed on the guy. Or I could be wrong, he totally could of used a massive speedblitz.

carver9
Originally posted by Surtur
So Superman blitzed and hit him thousands upon thousands of times in the blink of an eye, and he laughed it off? OR..did Supes just hit him a bunch of times in rapid succession(but nowhere near thousands)?

Supes rarely uses his speed, and even when he does he rarely uses every ounce of it. Given Orion is not currently dead in comics something tells me he didn't use every ounce of his speed on the guy. Or I could be wrong, he totally could of used a massive speedblitz.

Show us a scan of him hitting someone thousands and thousands of times in the blink of an eye. One scan.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Atom, BA and Orion could all take majorities... they could also lose a majority

abhilegend
Originally posted by carver9
Orion isn't from Earth and how would Hammond know about Orion power level?
Because Hammond was actually trying to hide away from Orion. Read the comic FFS.

carver9
Originally posted by abhilegend
Because Hammond was actually trying to hide away from Orion. Read the comic FFS.


No one is asking who or why he is hiding, I'm asking if he knew about Orion power levels and I didn't take that ad him hiding from Orion, it leaned more on him hiding from the gods. And how would he take possession of Orion anyways when Orion wasn't even there to possess so of course Superman wad the most powerful, during the time Hammond took his body. And that statement was wrong anyways since Wraith was on the planet. Someone who Superman himself admitted was more powerful than him.

abhilegend
Originally posted by cdtm
1.Byrne Superman wasn't all that slow. Hal froze time froze Earth, and Superman as Clark Kent was still moving around. OK, so? He was still way slower than Superman from current levels.

Right. Now Mark Waid doesn't writes characters as per the continuity. I'm sorry, but have you actually read that comic run by Waid?



I'm sorry again, but you know DC can treat them in whatever way they want? You are essentially saying that you know better than the actual writers of the characters even tho they are the same writers who wrote those feats? Well good luck on CBR with that logic.


Right. Two or three times per every five years is a in character tactic. Just like Thor godblasting everybody at the start of the fight. Mind you, he has actually done it more times than Flash stealing speed to win a fight.

Wally was dying in that moment and Jay couldn't fully steal his speed anyway. So?

abhilegend
Originally posted by carver9
No one is asking who or why he is hiding, I'm asking if he knew about Orion power levels and I didn't take that ad him hiding from Orion, it leaned more on him hiding from the gods. And how would he take possession of Orion anyways when Orion wasn't even there to possess so of course Superman wad the most powerful, during the time Hammond took his body. And that statement was wrong anyways since Wraith was on the planet. Someone who Superman himself admitted was more powerful than him.
Do me a favor, shut up and read the comic. Orion was on the planet since WW 14 as explained in the previous comic and Hammond knew exactly how powerful he was and hid away in the mind of Superman, the guy he found to be more powerful than him.

Eh? Wraith wasn't even created by Snyder at that point. Seriously STFU.

carver9
Originally posted by abhilegend
Do me a favor, shut up and read the comic. Orion was on the planet since WW 14 as explained in the previous comic and Hammond knew exactly how powerful he was and hid away in the mind of Superman, the guy he found to be more powerful than him.

Eh? Wraith wasn't even created by Snyder at that point. Seriously STFU.

I read the comic. Again, Hammond was not referring to Orion during that speech.

Lol... are you going to sit here and tell me Wraith wasn't on Earth when Hammond said that? Even though Wraith told us how long he was on the planet. WTF ABHI.

abhilegend
Originally posted by carver9
I read the comic. Again, Hammond was not referring to Orion during that speech.

Lol... are you going to sit here and tell me Wraith wasn't on Earth when Hammond said that? Even though Wraith told us how long he was on the planet. WTF ABHI.

Yeah, like your word is law. Shut up if you can't accept defeat.

Yeah, Lobdell didn't mention a character that wasn't created yet and had no information about the character . Are you really this ****ing inane?

h1a8
Originally posted by Golgo13
Orion
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Captain Atom
Firestorm
Flash (Barry and Wally)
Mon-El
Supergirl
Power Girl
Captain Marvel
Black Adam

WW gives the best fight because of her speed, skill, sword, and lasso combination. Unless Superman employs freeze breath to make the fight easier.

Flash stomps Superman.

the rest put up decent fights but falls short due to Supermans speed, power, and experience.

Star428
laughing @ your first two sentences.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by h1a8
Flash stomps Superman.

What?

Where is, Carver, holding you?

I'll send help IMMEDIATELY!

cdtm
Originally posted by abhilegend
OK, so? He was still way slower than Superman from current levels.

Right. Now Mark Waid doesn't writes characters as per the continuity. I'm sorry, but have you actually read that comic run by Waid?



I'm sorry again, but you know DC can treat them in whatever way they want? You are essentially saying that you know better than the actual writers of the characters even tho they are the same writers who wrote those feats? Well good luck on CBR with that logic.


Right. Two or three times per every five years is a in character tactic. Just like Thor godblasting everybody at the start of the fight. Mind you, he has actually done it more times than Flash stealing speed to win a fight.



And you can count tue number of times Superman's speed blitzed someone in his 60-70 year career on one hand.

But so what? Most of your post amounts to pis/svsfl and maximum capacity rules shouldn't apply. Except here on KMC, they do.

If you don't like standard comic board rules, you can always start your own forum with no pis, SpidermanVsfirelord, full capacity, or any other rules you don't like.

As it is here, Martian Manhunter destroys Superman 10/10. smokin'evil face

leonidas
Originally posted by Golgo13
Orion
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Captain Atom
Firestorm
Flash (Barry and Wally)
Mon-El
Supergirl
Power Girl
Captain Marvel
Black Adam

pre-nu i'd say jonn or cm/ba. none are beating him for a majority.

abhilegend
Originally posted by cdtm
And you can count tue number of times Superman's speed blitzed someone in his 60-70 year career on one hand. Not really. He does it more than any character not named Flash. This isn't CBR. Characters fight to their best, but in character. Nah, I like it much better here. You can always go back to cbr though. Just like he recently destroyed Superboy's fist with his face, right?

Supermex
Can I get a update on current Orion?


Last appearance and feat?

KuRuPT Thanosi
The last update is.. Orion beats Superman and laughs off his attacks lol

cdtm
Originally posted by abhilegend
Not really. He does it more than any character not named Flash. This isn't CBR. Characters fight to their best, but in character. Nah, I like it much better here. You can always go back to cbr though. Just like he recently destroyed Superboy's fist with his face, right?

Well, the way the rules put it, Flash KO's the rogues at a sprint. By your logic, this is ooc because he NEVER does this in a comic.

AsbestosFlaygon
Wonder Woman is certainly not his equal.

The only one who can best him in that list is Captain Atom.

abhilegend
^ Sure.

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