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In the SW mythos incompetence gets people killed, and there are many showings of weak duelists who die in combat. But who are the worst duelists by feats and showings, guys who get slaughtered by less skilled opponents, die to non force sensitives, and who generally didn't impress with blades. Who do you think are the worst lightsaber duelists in the mythos?

Count Dooku. Coleman Trebor could have killed him

ur mom

Whoever those Jedi were who were beaten by that Mandalorian Captain in Kotor in one-on-one combat.

Originally posted by RexCloneWarsMVS
ur mom

Leviticus 19:18 ESV /

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord

Stop making ****ing fun of me

Bane

Bane.

Revan

Sion, never really was impressive overall tbh aside from not dying. But tbh that just made it worse for him.

I dunno if it's true but Sion does have some hype of being 2nd only to Ulic in Djem So.

When and where?

Originally posted by The Merchant
I dunno if it's true but Sion does have some hype of being 2nd only to Ulic in Djem So.

I'm kinda skeptic on that...I mean Sion was obviously killed multiple times, hence all the wounds he had, scars and was literally just being held together by the darkside.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I'm kinda skeptic on that...I mean Sion was obviously killed multiple times, hence all the wounds he had, scars and was literally just being held together by the darkside.


Sure, but he also has a lot of experience, is good enough to keep his saber from being destroyed, and he doesn't get injured every time.

If he was too weak, then he couldn't attack and kill groups of Jedi like he did even with immortality.

Volffe Karko was a useless duellist. He had to rely almost entirely on his Force powers. In a straight-up duel I bet start-of-series Kanan would trounce him, as would Johun Othone.

Darth Plagueis wasn't terrible but he wasn't particularly good either. Early in his career perhaps he was (when his own master declared him an expert), but afterwards his skills almost certainly atrophied.

Darth Zannah was good at what she did but was severely limited due to being overspecialised. Having a super-defence is great but it's not very helpful if you're in a hurry and don't have time to wait for the enemy to tire. Sometimes you need to take the initiative.

Originally posted by The Merchant
I dunno if it's true but Sion does have some hype of being 2nd only to Ulic in Djem So.
And yet Atton lives.

Originally posted by chilled monkey


Darth Plagueis wasn't terrible but he wasn't particularly good either. Early in his career perhaps he was (when his own master declared him an expert), but afterwards his skills almost certainly atrophied.


Yeah, so atrophied that Sidious was totally confident about facing him in combat so he just didn't find the need to kill him in his sleep.



Ohwait.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Yeah, so atrophied that Sidious was totally confident about facing him in combat so he just didn't find the need to kill him in his sleep.



Ohwait.

Oh wait, this thread is about duelling skills ONLY.

I'm sure that if Palpatine had faced him in battle it would have been a pure swordfight with neither side using the Force to crush each other or throwing lightning around or any of that stuff.

Oh wait.

Sha'a Gi, Johun Othone.

Basically anyone with no feat. Though personally I feel Stass Allie was a bad duelist.

Vitiate

Maks Leem

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Oh wait, this thread is about duelling skills ONLY.

I'm sure that if Palpatine had faced him in battle it would have been a pure swordfight with neither side using the Force to crush each other or throwing lightning around or any of that stuff.

Oh wait.

You really don't think dueling skills wouldn't have been a major factor in a Sidious vs. Plagueis fight?

Whatever the case may be, I highly doubt Plagueis should even be considered as a candidate to be on the 'worst lightsaber duelists ever' list.

And come on, mate. Use your own mocking joke, be original.

Vitiate and Nihilus.

Sion needs to be mentioned as well, he kriffin' sucks.

Also I don't even know why Volfe Karkko carries a lightsaber. He's so bad he makes me want to stick my finger through my head and into my brain and twirl it around 360 degrees.

Zett Juckassa could probably beat him.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You really don't think dueling skills wouldn't have been a major factor in a Sidious vs. Plagueis fight?

I really don't.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Whatever the case may be, I highly doubt Plagueis should even be considered as a candidate to be on the 'worst lightsaber duelists ever' list.

I disagree. Remember Plagueis hated lightsabre duelling. Palpatine believed that the Sith didn't really need lightsabres but they were still worth using as a way to mock the Jedi so had at least some investment in duelling skill. Plagueis had no interest in it at all.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
And come on, mate. Use your own mocking joke, be original.

I'm really bad at that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also I don't even know why Volfe Karkko carries a lightsaber. He's so bad he makes me want to stick my finger through my head and into my brain and twirl it around 360 degrees.

Zett Juckassa could probably beat him.


Agreed.

Kas'im, Darth Thanaton, Darth Sion, etc

Master Fey.

Cin kinda isn't good at all

Cin has a fair amount of accolades and hype and is canonically more skilled than Shaak. He'd kick Volfe and Sion's butt so hard they flip inside-out.

Farfalla was a pretty lousy duellist. Not only was he a complete fop but even his own ally told him he'd just get in the way.

His form was actually stated to be perfect.

Sha'a Gi, Johun

those accolades didn't help him much against Anakin.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
those accolades didn't help him much against Anakin.

Due to edges in speed and strength.

Neph was referring to Farfalla in RoT, who's honestly a pretty poor duelist.

And that quote applied whilst he was amped, and even then it's not literal in the slightest.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His form was actually stated to be perfect.

Beg your pardon but so what? You can have "perfect form" and get beaten by some goon in a pub that only cares about winning. Dooku says this in "Labyrinth of Evil" and he's absolutely right.

Having "perfect form" is great for scoring points in a tournament but by itself it doesn't mean much in a real fight.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Neph was referring to Farfalla in RoT, who's honestly a pretty poor duelist.

And that quote applied whilst he was amped, and even then it's not literal in the slightest.

Based on what is he a poor duelist?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon but so what? You can have "perfect form" and get beaten by some goon in a pub that only cares about winning. Dooku says this in "Labyrinth of Evil" and he's absolutely right.

Having "perfect form" is great for scoring points in a tournament but by itself it doesn't mean much in a real fight.

So clearly he's a skilled duelist, who's completely mastered his chosen form. Ok, I'll humor you and say that maybe he actually wasn't a stellar combatant. But one of the worst duelists of all time? No.

I'm pretty sure it does actually. I'm pretty sure that skills in the use of a lightsaber pretty directly translate into being good in a fight. You know, since lightsaber techniques are kind of meant to be used in a fight. That's what they were literally developed for. It's like saying that a guy who's a fully trained marksman wouldn't be a good shot. I'm pretty damn sure that he would be. That's almost a redundant sentence because that's the same thing. And Farfalla isn't some teacher who learned karate in his spare time. He's a Jedi Master who lived through an actual war with the Sith where he fought on the front lines. I'd be confident in saying that he's likely got more real experience dueling Sith than every member of the PT Jedi council combined. Your point is further invalid because you're coming from an example where the guy isn't literally a superpowered martial arts monk. People might be shit in a real fight because they're physically impotent or they don't handle stress well or make good decisions. But like I said, Farfalla is a Jedi Master. He's in the peak of physical fitness, he can augment his physical attributes, he has enhanced senses, he can allow the Force to direct his actions, he has precognition etc.

Also since Farfalla's style is highlighted as graceful, I think its most likely he was a Makashi duelist.

Lol Cart why Thanaton and Kas'im?

Zayne Carrick.

IIRC Thanaton was getting torn up by Kressh's niece, and Kas'im getting driven back by Bane who was far less skilled, having to cheat and sabotage Bane's training make him look terrible as a duelist.

Not sure how you think Bane was far less skilled than Kas'im. The text directly says that Bane was able to counter him whenever he tried to change tactics and that there was nothing Kas'im could pull out that Bane didn't know how to deal with (barring dual wielding obviously). Bane's upper hand was just as much a result of his skill as it was his superior power.

^
I would say, that it was superior power that enabled Bane to take an advantage over Kas'Im.
But I guess, that in DK's mind, Kas'Im was still a bit more skilled duelist, since Bane had no answer to his ultimate tactic.

His "ultimate tactic" was deliberately sabotaging Bane's training by supressing knowledge of Jar Kai. Such a great duelist that he has to cheat in order to beat a less skilled opponent that even drove him back .

Well, that being said, they both suck.

Probably not Bane holding him back and driving him back is a good showing in spite of only training for a bit. He would've lost the duel but not because of any skill gap between them, but only because of how badly Kas'im needed to cheat. Kas'im is the one that sucks, tbh. Granted Bane never really ever got better as a duelist himself.

That wasn't cheat at all. Just Bane's lack of knowledge.

And Thanaton became a powerhouse later on and Kas'im was a master of all forms, including Jar Kai. Neither of those translate to 'worst duelists ever'. I mean, he wasn't very good, but not the worst of all time, either.

Han Solo.

Trainee Ben Skywalker.

He couldn't even make Luke ignite his saber, and was said to have been so bad that even youngling's had superior saber skills.

Well, logically/consistently, most people really wouldn't be able to make Luke get out his blade.

But yeah, being worse than Rontos isn't very good.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Based on what is he a poor duelist?


The fact that his own ally told him "stay back! you'll just get in the way!" Not exactly a ringing endorsement.


Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure it does actually. I'm pretty sure that skills in the use of a lightsaber pretty directly translate into being good in a fight. You know, since lightsaber techniques are kind of meant to be used in a fight. That's what they were literally developed for. It's like saying that a guy who's a fully trained marksman wouldn't be a good shot. I'm pretty damn sure that he would be. That's almost a redundant sentence because that's the same thing.

No offence but I think you're missing the point here.

ALL martial arts, armed or unarmed are (at their core) meant to be used in a fight (although obviously some have drifted away from that focus over time). The point is that simply knowing how to do the moves isn't enough BY ITSELF. Again, you can be able to perform the techniques perfectly but unless you possess understanding of timing, positioning, anticipating an opponent and so on, you're going to get beaten. I once read a quote, something to the effect of "knowing how to do the moves is useless unless you know WHEN and WHERE to use them."

That is what I meant when I said that "perfect form" by itself doesn't mean much in a real fight.

To use your metaphor, a fully trained marksman would be a good shot when he's shooting at bullseyes on a firing range but put him in live combat against guys shooting back and see how well he does there.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Also since Farfalla's style is highlighted as graceful, I think its most likely he was a Makashi duelist.

Sure, just not a very good one.

Originally posted by carthage
Probably not Bane holding him back and driving him back is a good showing in spite of only training for a bit. He would've lost the duel but not because of any skill gap between them, but only because of how badly Kas'im needed to cheat. Kas'im is the one that sucks, tbh. Granted Bane never really ever got better as a duelist himself. you can't cheat in lightsabe dueling lol. There are no guidelines that everyone must follow or else the lightsaber police will find you. Kas'im didnt NEED to train people in kar'kai. He wasnt morally or contractially bound to do so. That was just Kas'im being cunning and grabbing an advantage

Originally posted by chilled monkey

Sure, just not a very good one.

From the sound of it he seemed reasonable skilled, it's just he didn't have an answer for power and a good hit from Orbalisk Bane could knock the saber out of his hand even if he blocked.

But, if he was fighting someone not as strong, who couldn't do that, then he's in a pretty nice position.

His problem was mainly fighting a master who was also, like, twice as strong as him. Orbalisk Bane isn't exactly a normal foe strength wise.

Kinda like how when Savage Opress showed up, a lot of skilled foes had trouble with his strength.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian

Zayne Carrick.


Zayne, for all he was called incompetent at being a Jedi, was able to, by the end, hold on the defense pretty well against a skilled foe. Granted, that's just-defense, and Alek and Jarael were both better, but that's really no shame.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also I don't even know why Volfe Karkko carries a lightsaber.

Hey, sometimes you just wanna kill someone weaker.

Revan.