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Is Johnny just not that good/powerful/effective a character?
Was thinking of the Nova Blast thread, and some other things i read online today.
Seems he's really not that good. At anything.
So, can Johnny get a majority in no prep no BFR fights against any of the DCnu JLA?

Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
GL Hal
Barry Flash
Cyborg
Aquaman

It's not that he's 'not that powerful', he is. It's just that he's outclassed a lot of the times by the villains the FF face (which usually need Reed to "chef up" something to beat them).

He's easily the second most powerful member of the FF and extremely versatile. He's a fast flier, can control any source of flame (either snuffing it out or amping it or using it to make shapes like decoys of himself to confuse the enemy), he can fire powerful blasts of plasma, his nova blast is no joke, he can draw heat out of his opponents or the air (he used this technique to beat Graviton).

As to the thread :
He loses to -
Superman
Wonder Woman
GL Hal

He can pull majority wins against -
Cyborg
Aquaman
Batman

I don't know how he'd fare vs Flash. I know Flash can literally run circles around him but what could Flash do if Torch stays airborne and starts draining heat from the environment, or sets it all afire, or goes nova?

Originally posted by zopzop


I don't know how he'd fare vs Flash. I know Flash can literally run circles around him but what could Flash do if Torch stays airborne and starts draining heat from the environment, or sets it all afire, or goes nova?

Flash would punch him upside the head

http://i.imgur.com/kizwn9a.jpg

Does Flash usually use that ability and even if he did how would he withstand a plasma burst or Human Torch could rap him in a fire tornado while also burning the oxygen causing him to suffocate.

Originally posted by golem370
Does Flash usually use that ability and even if he did how would he withstand a plasma burst or Human Torch could rap him in a fire tornado while also burning the oxygen causing him to suffocate.

By having reflexes waaaaaay faster than Torch, I'd imagine. Before he even thinks about what he should/could do, he'd have been punched. It would be like asking how a hypersonic bullet would be able to withstand all the things you just named - it doesn't have to. Torch has fast reactions, sure. Flash fast? I doubt it.

Also, depending on the writer, he does not need to breathe. Speedforce, remember?

Originally posted by zopzop
It's not that he's 'not that powerful', he is. It's just that he's outclassed a lot of the times by the villains the FF face (which usually need Reed to "chef up" something to beat them).

He's easily the second most powerful member of the FF and extremely versatile. He's a fast flier, can control any source of flame (either snuffing it out or amping it or using it to make shapes like decoys of himself to confuse the enemy), he can fire powerful blasts of plasma, his nova blast is no joke, he can draw heat out of his opponents or the air (he used this technique to beat Graviton).

As to the thread :
He loses to -
Superman
Wonder Woman
GL Hal

He can pull majority wins against -
Cyborg
Aquaman
Batman

I don't know how he'd fare vs Flash. I know Flash can literally run circles around him but what could Flash do if Torch stays airborne and starts draining heat from the environment, or sets it all afire, or goes nova?
Thanks for the in depth post, and everyone else, too.
I feel a little better for Johnny. No shame losing to the Flash.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Flash would punch him upside the head

http://i.imgur.com/kizwn9a.jpg I thought all that was what the speed force was for.

Without knowing the context of the story, i can only agree with you.
Bart shouldnt be having that problem, normally.

Doom considers Johnny the least effective of F4. And he knows his enemies well.

Honestly Flash is moot. There is at least one member of the JLA that Johnny can absolutely do nothing to. It's irrelevant what would happen to other members.

Though it needs to be said Flash would KO Johnny before he even reacts.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Doom considers Johnny the least effective of F4. And he knows his enemies well.
Doom is full of shit.

In terms of raw power, Johnny is second only to Sue on the FF and he's easily one of the most powerful mid metas in Marvel.

Human Torch is pretty powerful within his own tier. As with anyone else, he looks weaker when you place him against people above that level.

Honest question.
What IS his tier, then? Who from DC is in it?

Originally posted by zopzop
Doom is full of shit.

In terms of raw power, Johnny is second only to Sue on the FF and he's easily one of the most powerful mid metas in Marvel.

He's right, when you think about it.

Johnny is not only a hothead - he's one of those dumb, pretty boys that joke all the time and treat everything as a game. Like Iceman, young Jason Todd or Spiderman sometimes.

Richard has the brains. Sue has the raw power and versatility. Ben, on his best day, is not *that* far from some older versions of the Hulk.

Johnny is irresponsible, easy to manipulate, never thinks about what he's doing, doesn't learn from his mistakes, doesn't listen to orders... Doom is right to mock him.

Originally posted by riv6672
Honest question.
What IS his tier, then? Who from DC is in it?

Cyborg or Aquaman, maybe. And that's being generous as hell.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Richard has the brains. Sue has the raw power and versatility. Ben, on his best day, is not *that* far from some older versions of the Hulk.

Johnny is irresponsible, easy to manipulate, never thinks about what he's doing, doesn't learn from his mistakes, doesn't listen to orders... Doom is right to mock him.
In terms of a straight up fight, power for power, Johnny would demolish Reed and Ben. Sue eclipses him but then again Sue eclipses a lot of high metas.



IMHO, Johnny is more powerful than either of those two. His nova blast alone has more raw power than Cy or AM can reproduce. Then you have his heat manipulation powers which are awesome. He can either ignite the environment around him into an inferno OR he can DRAIN heat from it (this is how he beat Gravition, a legit team buster) :
http://s27.postimg.org/sqdf5jdgv/4220351_human_torch_freezes.jpg

I don't understand how he, the HT, is rated so low on this forum all of a sudden.

Originally posted by zopzop
It's not that he's 'not that powerful', he is. It's just that he's outclassed a lot of the times by the villains the FF face (which usually need Reed to "chef up" something to beat them).

He's easily the second most powerful member of the FF and extremely versatile. He's a fast flier, can control any source of flame (either snuffing it out or amping it or using it to make shapes like decoys of himself to confuse the enemy), he can fire powerful blasts of plasma, his nova blast is no joke, he can draw heat out of his opponents or the air (he used this technique to beat Graviton).

As to the thread :
He loses to -
Superman
Wonder Woman
GL Hal

He can pull majority wins against -
Cyborg
Aquaman
Batman

I don't know how he'd fare vs Flash. I know Flash can literally run circles around him but what could Flash do if Torch stays airborne and starts draining heat from the environment, or sets it all afire, or goes nova?

Second most powerful? Beating aquaman? Seeing alotta typos

I'm still iffy on Johnny's tier, thanks any way.

Originally posted by riv6672
I'm still iffy on Johnny's tier, thanks any way.

At best mid meta

Originally posted by Sin I AM
At best mid meta
At best? More like at LEAST mid meta. At most, high meta. How many mid metas can make Graviton their b|tch?
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Second most powerful? Beating aquaman? Seeing alotta typos
He can for sure take AM. AM has shown great heat resistance vs things like lava and such, but Johnny's flame is a LOT hotter than lava. Ironically, he doesn't even have to beat him using fire. He can just siphon the heat from him and freeze him solid.

Originally posted by zopzop

In terms of a straight up fight, power for power, Johnny would demolish Reed and Ben. Sue eclipses him but then again Sue eclipses a lot of high metas.

IMHO, Johnny is more powerful than either of those two. His nova blast alone has more raw power than Cy or AM can reproduce. Then you have his heat manipulation powers which are awesome. He can either ignite the environment around him into an inferno OR he can DRAIN heat from it (this is how he beat Gravition, a legit team buster) :
http://s27.postimg.org/sqdf5jdgv/4220351_human_torch_freezes.jpg

I don't understand how he, the HT, is rated so low on this forum all of a sudden. A lot of our discussions revolve around the Herald-level beings. Maybe that's why. Originally posted by zopzop
He can for sure take AM. AM has shown great heat resistance vs things like lava and such, but Johnny's flame is a LOT hotter than lava. Ironically, he doesn't even have to beat him using fire. He can just siphon the heat from him and freeze him solid. He can do that?

Oh ok wonder how his track record is against namor then

Originally posted by ODG
He can do that?
Yup. The only thing that saved Graviton from that fate was that he had already used his powers to MASSIVELY increase his density (to the point of laughing at a direct hit from Spikey Thing. Graviton didn't even flinch.), this is what stopped him from catching fire from the Torch's direct attacks.

I understand Johnny is no herald, but neither is Reed (power wise, not his 'prep skillz' using his intellect), Thing or even Sue.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Oh ok wonder how his track record is against namor then
Namor is an entirely different beast. In some showings he avoids fire attacks because they'd dehydrate him. In other showings, it takes THREE Human Torches going all out to merely KO him. So....

^ I didn't even read your prior scan properly, lol.

Totally missed it. Wonder why he doesn't use that ability more often.

Originally posted by ODG
^ I didn't even read your prior scan properly, lol.

Totally missed it. Wonder why he doesn't use that ability more often.
Cause writers are lazy.

Just like they don't bother using Namor's more exotic abilities. The fact that he can mimic the powers of sea life (he's done it more than once) and the fact that he's effectively immune to electricity/electrical attacks.

Meh i just dont see it. That's an extreme outlier. Johnny dont have the chops to hang with high metas. I mean who has he beaten?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Meh i just dont see it. That's an extreme outlier. Johnny dont have the chops to hang with high metas. I mean who has he beaten?
I just showed you a scan of him punking a herald level being : Graviton.

If he wanted to cut loose and go for the kill, he could take out Thing (who is a low level Cl100 brick).

That showing is ridiculous actually considering what graviton has done. I mean seriously his forcefield should protect him from that or he could have simply bfred Johnny. All ben needs is one thunder clap.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
All ben needs is one thunder clap.
Assuming Johnny would be stupid enough to be in range of that. HT could fry him from a safe distance.

That's the problem - he's more than stupid enough.

Originally posted by zopzop

In terms of a straight up fight, power for power, Johnny would demolish Reed and Ben. Sue eclipses him but then again Sue eclipses a lot of high metas.



IMHO, Johnny is more powerful than either of those two. His nova blast alone has more raw power than Cy or AM can reproduce. Then you have his heat manipulation powers which are awesome. He can either ignite the environment around him into an inferno OR he can DRAIN heat from it (this is how he beat Gravition, a legit team buster) :
http://s27.postimg.org/sqdf5jdgv/4220351_human_torch_freezes.jpg

I don't understand how he, the HT, is rated so low on this forum all of a sudden.
He did a similar thing with Gambit (who, at that time, had HT's powers mixed with his own).

Originally posted by zopzop
IMHO, Johnny is more powerful than either of those two. His nova blast alone has more raw power than Cy or AM can reproduce. Then you have his heat manipulation powers which are awesome. He can either ignite the environment around him into an inferno OR he can DRAIN heat from it (this is how he beat Gravition, a legit team buster) :
http://s27.postimg.org/sqdf5jdgv/4220351_human_torch_freezes.jpg

lol you are using an extremely low showing of Graviton and an extremely high showing of HT filled with CIS and PIS to create a false impression of HT average.

anyway not only have Graviton easily endured the freezing vacuum of space, but the heat of the sun directly:

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/23139012_3733901-grav89.pnghttp://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/23138960_3762810-grav87.png

then there's also the fact that Graviton has easily held in place for hours the F4 along with every hero of NY simultaneously

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/23139013_3760568-grav92.png

Originally posted by zopzop I don't understand how he, the HT, is rated so low on this forum all of a sudden.

b/c he brags a lot but hasn't really done anything

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Strange, it shows up for me?

But yeah, it shows Johnny blasting Gladiator with his full nova blast - and Glads just laughing it off.

A million degrees *should* damage way more than just a city block - based on the scans seen so far of the nova blast actually being used, with some comments:

For - Human Torch would obliterate all these guys:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/3853/1334956-torch2.jpg (boasting by Johnny)
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/36037/746282-897621-ht1.jpg (this was a Johnny who was powered by EVERY OTHER Johnny in the mulitverse)
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/40000/1069839-untitled_7.png
(good one. rivals a star. Hyperbole?)
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/121521/2880116-2343963_1_super.jpg
(burn LIKE the sun? Hyperbole.)

Against - Everyone tanks it, except Batman, who kicks the flame back at his face:
http://s21.postimg.org/ur1pd4l9v/Terrax_Bio_8.jpg
(It's Terrax, though...hardly the weakest of characters)
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/36037/746281-absorptionnovablastks3.jpg
(such power....rivals that of a starship. Tony shit talking?)
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/3853/1334972-torch3.jpg
(nuke blast - small potatoes when we're talking about these guys)
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans10/FF249_vsGladiator6.jpg
(city block razing - so backs the nuke size and starship size up).

Originally posted by zopzop
It's not that he's 'not that powerful', he is. It's just that he's outclassed a lot of the times by the villains the FF face (which usually need Reed to "chef up" something to beat them).

He's easily the second most powerful member of the FF and extremely versatile. He's a fast flier, can control any source of flame (either snuffing it out or amping it or using it to make shapes like decoys of himself to confuse the enemy), he can fire powerful blasts of plasma, his nova blast is no joke, he can draw heat out of his opponents or the air (he used this technique to beat Graviton).

As to the thread :
He loses to -
Superman
Wonder Woman
GL Hal

He can pull majority wins against -
Cyborg
Aquaman
Batman

I don't know how he'd fare vs Flash. I know Flash can literally run circles around him but what could Flash do if Torch stays airborne and starts draining heat from the environment, or sets it all afire, or goes nova?

Please tell me your joking! Unless he goes Super Nova no way is he beating Cyborg let alone Batman. Aquaman would depend on what version and where they are fighting but more often than not Aquaman beas him also. As for Flash, I don't know whether to laugh at your post, get mad or cry over your lack of knowledge of said character. One of Flash Rogues gallery is a person called Heat Wave and guess what he can do? Depending on the version he either has the powers internally or he use a gun. The thing is his gun allows him to do everything the HT can do except Fly & Super Nova. Now before you start saying HT can stay in the air and Blast Flash, numerous people have tried it before and it never worked for one thing Flash is considerably faster than HT and the other Flash can create Hurricanes, Wind Blast and Vacuums to shut down the HT. There's probably half a dozen other ways Flash could easily beat the HT but this post is already long enough. If you want I'll list them later.

Originally posted by zopzop

In terms of a straight up fight, power for power, Johnny would demolish Reed and Ben. Sue eclipses him but then again Sue eclipses a lot of high metas.



IMHO, Johnny is more powerful than either of those two. His nova blast alone has more raw power than Cy or AM can reproduce. Then you have his heat manipulation powers which are awesome. He can either ignite the environment around him into an inferno OR he can DRAIN heat from it (this is how he beat Gravition, a legit team buster) :
http://s27.postimg.org/sqdf5jdgv/4220351_human_torch_freezes.jpg

I don't understand how he, the HT, is rated so low on this forum all of a sudden.

How often has he used said power?

Originally posted by zopzop
Assuming Johnny would be stupid enough to be in range of that. HT could fry him from a safe distance.

https://aikiliving.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/harry-reaching-for-something-dh.jpg

Originally posted by -Pr-
How often has he used said power?
Well according to Stilt, he's used it at least one other time vs Gambit.

Johnny being able to defeat Graviton sounds like nonsense. We had Spider-Man vs Firelord. Now we have another one, Human Torch vs Graviton.

Originally posted by Surtur
Johnny being able to defeat Graviton sounds like nonsense. We had Spider-Man vs Firelord. Now we have another one, Human Torch vs Graviton.
If you think that's a high showing for HT or a low showing for Graviton, that's fine. I just wanted to show HT draining heat from an opponent. If Graviton hadn't upped his density to a ridiculous level earlier (to prevent from catching fire), he'd have frozen solid.

Originally posted by zopzop
If you think that's a high showing for HT or a low showing for Graviton, that's fine. I just wanted to show HT draining heat from an opponent. If Graviton hadn't upped his density to a ridiculous level earlier (to prevent from catching fire), he'd have frozen solid.

But instead of raising the density of himself why didn't he just snap Torches neck and be done with it? Did he even have his forcefield up?

Originally posted by Surtur
But instead of raising the density of himself why didn't he just snap Torches neck and be done with it? Did he even have his forcefield up?

So the guy who shits on anything and throws it under the bus if even the slightest thing bothers him is in here defending Human Torch?

Might as well just start defending Rhino while saying everything else in Marvel is stupid and bad writing

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So the guy who shits on anything and throws it under the bus if even the slightest thing bothers him is in here defending Human Torch?

Might as well just start defending Rhino while saying everything else in Marvel is stupid and bad writing
The HT is very underrated. He has a fairly robust powerset and some incredible showings for his tier (even in his early career he absorbed the heat and radiation from an exploding nuke and diffused it harmlessly into space, sure he exhausted himself as a result but it's still damn impressive).

Thanks for taking up HTs side.

Originally posted by zopzop
The HT is very underrated. He has a fairly robust powerset and some incredible showings for his tier (even in his early career he absorbed the heat and radiation from an exploding nuke and diffused it harmlessly into space, sure he exhausted himself as a result but it's still damn impressive).



http://i.imgur.com/l3m370R.gif

Originally posted by Sin I AM
http://i.imgur.com/l3m370R.gif
http://s13.postimg.org/7zpqvxlhv/4221332_human_torch_nuke.jpg
whistling
How many 'mid' metas can absorb and redirect a nuke blast?

Lol u wanna bz to see if he can cut even against another high meta?

Zop, you are all over the place with how you defend/neglect certain characters but overall, I agree with your argument on human torch.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Lol u wanna bz to see if he can cut even against another high meta?
No need to. I'm not going through 40+ years of FF issues and HT guest appearances to come up with scans for a BZ. I've posted a few scans here to show him demonstrating a nice range of powers : heat/energy absorption, controlling flame (to the point of shaping it into clones of himself), and drawing heat from an enemy.

Then you have his respectable maneuverability and speed in flight and his nova blast.

He's a top tier 'mid' meta AT THE VERY LEAST or a high meta at best.
http://s16.postimg.org/4iy2ke775/4223891_johnny_supernova.jpg
"Mid" meta at best?

Agree to disagree. Just don't see him putting down anyone worth their salt. He's the epitome of glass Canon

The only members he could reliably beat are a non-prepped Batman and perhaps Aquaman. Superman, Wonder Woman, GL, and Flash are all way above his league.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Agree to disagree. Just don't see him putting down anyone worth their salt. He's the epitome of glass Canon
Unfortunately, this is the popular opinion.

Originally posted by zopzop
Well according to Stilt, he's used it at least one other time vs Gambit.

Twice really isn't enough for me to think he'd to it regularly, tbh.

Also not sure that absorbing heat from Aquaman would be a good idea in the first place, but that's me.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Twice really isn't enough for me to think he'd to it regularly, tbh.

Also not sure that absorbing heat from Aquaman would be a good idea in the first place, but that's me.
That's because it's such a 'cheaty' move. It would be an instant win against anyone not able to counter it.

The only thing that saved Gravition from it was that he had already MASSIVELY increased his density.

Originally posted by riv6672
Unfortunately, this is the popular opinion.

Don't beat yourself up. Not everyone can be the best. Some people have to be scrubs

Originally posted by zopzop
That's because it's such a 'cheaty' move. It would be an instant win against anyone not able to counter it.

The only thing that saved Gravition from it was that he had already MASSIVELY increased his density.

So a "cheaty" win isn't the average in this case, then.

Originally posted by -Pr-
So a "cheaty" win isn't the average in this case, then.
I don't understand what's so controversial about this tactic (draining heat) of his. It's not like he hasn't done it vs energy attacks (Blastaar, exploding nuke), vs ambient heat (in an exploding gas station), and at least twice vs humanoid opponents (Graviton and Gambit).

Why exactly does this ability, that's CLEARLY within his powerset (heat manipulation), seem suspect to you?

To be fair, Flash has used the IMP about four times in his career....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
To be fair, Flash has used the IMP about four times in his career.... Flash also sucks though

Like Human Torch

I think Marvel is rightly aware that burning people alive is a lot more horrible than punching them out, so HT often gets relegated to a supporting role in fights against humanoid, non-doombot, enemies. It dosen't make him look as impressive as he really is.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Flash also sucks though

Like Human Torch

Originally posted by zopzop
I don't understand what's so controversial about this tactic (draining heat) of his. It's not like he hasn't done it vs energy attacks (Blastaar, exploding nuke), vs ambient heat (in an exploding gas station), and at least twice vs humanoid opponents (Graviton and Gambit).

Why exactly does this ability, that's CLEARLY within his powerset (heat manipulation), seem suspect to you?

I'm not saying he can't do it. I'm asking how likely he is to do it in the average fight.

Like someone mentioned, Flash's IMP has been done sparsely. How many times has Superman sung someone out of existence? How many times has Cyclops used his "OML" blast?

High outliers are named as such because that's what they are, and I definitely think this falls in to that category. You don't have to agree; it's perfectly fine. It's just imo.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm not saying he can't do it. I'm asking how likely he is to do it in the average fight.

Like someone mentioned, Flash's IMP has been done sparsely. How many times has Superman sung someone out of existence? How many times has Cyclops used his "OML" blast?

High outliers are named as such because that's what they are, and I definitely think this falls in to that category. You don't have to agree; it's perfectly fine. It's just imo.

Your opinion is law