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Hand to hand, no weapons.

Does BP get the heart-shaped root "buff" ?

Originally posted by krisblaze
Does BP get the heart-shaped root "buff" ? by powerless, I'm pretty sure that he means "man without fear" version of panther. T'challa wins due to superior h2h skills, superior agility, and superior intelligence.

Agreed, but Castle makes him work for it.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Does BP get the heart-shaped root "buff" ?
Nope. As death said, I meant it to be the MWF version.

how good is bp really in h2h....? what are some of his better ma feats? cuz i'm thinking frank may be able to match them, or at least come pretty close. i assume equal stats, correct? no herb or anything from earlier versions of t'challa?

No herb, but he's still a peak human, even without it (according to himself - he loves to brag a lot, though).

And moves faster than Daredevil, according to Cage...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
No herb, but he's still a peak human, even without it (according to himself - he loves to brag a lot, though).

And moves faster than Daredevil, according to Cage...

Cage saying it carries about as much weight as Booster claiming someone's faster then Flash.

no powers i'd take dd 10/10 over bp. frank has some mixed showings vs matty, but he's done pretty well most of the time. frank would def take some in this match imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
how good is bp really in h2h....? what are some of his better ma feats? cuz i'm thinking frank may be able to match them, or at least come pretty close.

i'm in a bz now that will show some of his better ma feats. the updated bp respect thread here is pretty good too.

Anyways he one shotted karnak twice, one shotted taskmaster, owned wolverine,
stalemated Cap and Cap even admitted they were equal in skill, BP mentioned he knows every ma fighting style in the world, took down luke cage with only pressure points strikes, beat Lady Bullseye and Typhoid Mary, was doing well against Kinpin, defeated Kraven, defeated a superskrull that had the skills and powers of bullseye, elektra, moonknight, wolverine, iron fist, shang chi, cap, and daredevil, put the white wolf to sleep with nerve pinches - all this I believe unenhanced. edit also stalemated DD

Clearly BP is on the same level as top MAs, Frank seems a step or two below that although he has an awesome damage soak.

BP would beat the hell out of Frank IMO. Look at how the original Night Thrasher was dominating him. This would be like Batman vs the Punisher.

Originally posted by Supermutant
all this I believe unenhanced.

Not all, no. HSH counts as an enhancement.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Not all, no. HSH counts as an enhancement.

fair enough-- I did focus on skills though

even unenhance he still has top ma skills

Originally posted by leonidas


no powers i'd take dd 10/10 over bp. frank has some mixed showings vs matty, but he's done pretty well most of the time. frank would def take some in this match imo. Black Panther strikes me as being on or near the same fighting level as Daredevil, Wolverine and Captain America.

I see a lot of:

"BP is way better. Here's examples of him doing h2h."

"OP says no powers."

"Oh. Well he's still way better. Even though he always has powers."

^ Same thing is said of Cap w/o SSS, Wolverine w/o claws or HF and Iron Fist w/o chi. /shrug

HF?
And, this has always been my opinion, Wolverine without his HF and claws isnt a top MA.
Cap's style is basic and straight forward, the SSS ups his stats to the point where that style works quite well against top MA.
Iron Fist IS a top MA. Who has a super punch.
Add BP to the list, with his countless suit upgrades and amps.
Like i said, my opinion. I understand its not one shared by people here, and, i'm okay with that.

Frank is an actual non powered MA.

BP is just too much for Frank.

Without powers, no he isnt.

Originally posted by ODG
Black Panther strikes me as being on or near the same fighting level as Daredevil, Wolverine and Captain America.

that was sort of my gut instinct but then i was thinking about it and wasn't so sure... he's usually enhanced and so faster and stronger than he would normally be. not sure how many pure ma style feats he has. didn't storm recently almost match him h2h? anyway, i'd put him on the tier right below those guys you mentioned, but my opinion isn't set in stone if someone can show some skill displays.

Originally posted by leonidas
that was sort of my gut instinct but then i was thinking about it and wasn't so sure... he's usually enhanced and so faster and stronger than he would normally be. not sure how many pure ma style feats he has. didn't storm recently almost match him h2h? anyway, i'd put him on the tier right below those guys you mentioned, but my opinion isn't set in stone if someone can show some skill displays. panther wasn't taking that fight seriously. The book itself was stating that both of their hearts were breaking and midway through, panther gave up and began kissing her before she suckered punched him. I'll see if I can't find you a few good examples of his skill to change your opinion.

Originally posted by leonidas
he's usually enhanced and so faster and stronger than he would normally be. not sure how many pure ma style feats he has.
Bingo.
We KNOW how good Frank is. We've seen him go h2h with top tier fighters, many of whom are amped in some way, as well as criminals of most every level.
BP, his pure unamped h2h skill is a matter of conjecture.

Originally posted by riv6672
Without powers, no he isnt.

Yeah he actually is. Frank isn't even on the original Night Thrasher's level of skill. Wish I had the scans to show you their short run in.

Originally posted by Stoic
Frank isn't even on the original Night Thrasher's level of skill.

So we're gonna focus on the NT showing, while ignoring his numerous fights against the top ma like Daredevil...?

You want to lowball so much, sure, let's lowball.

According to handbooks, even WITH the HSH, BP is not a true peak human in all departments. Imagine how weak he is without HSH then!

While the Punisher was stated to be stronger than Black Widow, who has her own version of the Super Soldier Serum. Heh. Frank punches a hole through T'Challa!

... see? No point in lowballing.

Panther wins. He is in the level of Daredevil - who beats Frank in h2h.

Originally posted by Stoic
Yeah he actually is. Frank isn't even on the original Night Thrasher's level of skill. Wish I had the scans to show you their short run in. I actually have that comic and yeah, he got dominated by NT.Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
So we're gonna focus on the NT showing, while ignoring his numerous fights against the top ma like Daredevil...? He's had good fights with DD but I also recall several times in which he got destroyed.Originally posted by leonidas
sorry I took so much time getting these feats. I went through his respect thread and gathered most of his showings of skill. I don't think that I need t prove that panther is smarter and more tactical than frank, so I'll just show all of the scans related to how he's more agile/a better martial artist than frank.

Black Panther vs White Wolf again. This time Black Panther is without his enhancements. Beats him just as easily. Black panther also shows off some decent strength in the end when he picks white wolf up and starts smacking him against the wall effortlessly and also holds him with 1 hand by the neck. Again Black panther isn't enhanced here...
http://i1050.photobu...zps91fc1a8a.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsb4b8a549.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps4189e72d.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsac0628e9.jpg

Black Panther vs some hand ninjas, Lady Bullseye and Typhoid Mary. Black Panther is unenhanced here and protecting an innocent. When he is fighting the hand ninjas he doesn't seem to have a lot of room to maneuver and they were only there to tire him out. He then dodges Lady Bullseye and Typohid Mary and escapes with a technique sly shamens use. Also shows off some nice speed when he moves at a blur on that 1 scan towards the end, shows some reflexes when he catches Lady Bullseyes sword.
http://i1050.photobu...zpse83eaae1.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps74ee6f8c.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps6c270227.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsd2a60683.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps4bc4b294.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps40535556.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps0e75b1a9.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsff1cec03.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsd993510e.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsbeb6f259.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsd6ffb25b.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsd34ae8bc.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsed471351.jpg

Black Panther unenhanced vs some hand ninjas. He seems to be moving at the speed of a blur at the second scan.
http://i1050.photobu...zpsfb657202.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpse81b28b3.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps179dbde3.jpg

Black panther while unenhanced vs Lady Bullseye, Typhoid Mary, and some hand ninjas. He also shows some nice reflexes catching an arrow, and also shows some prep when he creates a formula to zap Typhoid Marys powers away.
http://i1050.photobu...zpsa0a76102.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps6e9632d6.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps31d7a685.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsec2c0040.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps66bf1a92.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps8f88078a.jpg

Unenhanced Black Panther vs the American Panther. He dodges some point blank gunfire.
http://i1050.photobu...zps8f88078a.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps25e64e07.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsb8bc96c8.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps3e73c47b.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps1898a9a6.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsd05f9d1c.jpg

Unenhanced Black Panther vs Kraven (Sergei) round two. Kraven is the worlds greatest hunter in the Marvel universe and has held his own or beaten the likes of Spider-man, Venom and Daredevil. And Black Panther goes toe to toe with him...Sort of. Kraven does seem to be relying on brains powers here. But despite this black panther takes the upper hand. All though the fight is far from over.
http://i1050.photobu...zps7ef006b7.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsc4001193.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsfe76d5c9.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps4db9aaf3.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps0463c56b.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps327a0626.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps32530367.jpg

Continued....

Black panther vs Kanark. He one shots him twice in different scenarios. One should note that Kanark is a very skilled imhuman martial artist and can see weak points in joint areas.
http://i1050.photobu...zpse0d6dd64.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsd1a59868.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsef337338.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps9e1cc035.jpg

Black Panther (unenhanced) vs his uncle Syan. His uncle at the time was black panther so he must have had some skills yet black panther won and made it look easy despite his uncle being enhanced while T'challa was not enhanced.
http://i1050.photobu...zps96882368.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpse5dd37e7.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsc5de35a4.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsa0f6769e.jpg

Unenhanced Black Panther vs Kingpin. Black Panther holds his own pretty well. He also nearly bankrupts the Kingpin as well which is a serious prep feats considering he didn't have 1/100000th the resources he normally has...
http://i1050.photobu...zps2f0a36ca.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps64253a79.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps5d215fde.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps67ce400a.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpse77c57f9.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zpsd46b6236.jpg
http://i1050.photobu...zps93f2b89f.jpg

A young T'Challa takes down a gun man.
http://i1050.photobu...zpsf8a46809.jpg

^ How did he lose his HSH enhancement while in Hell's Kitchen?

Originally posted by ODG
^ How did he lose his HSH enhancement while in Hell's Kitchen? it was during/after Doomwar. After he made the processed vibranium inert, he left wakanda in shura's care and let her become the new black panther. Apparently in order to become enhanced by the hsh, you have to be recognized as the black panther. Honestly, my memory's a little hazy, so you might wanna look it up yourself.

Originally posted by deathslash
look it up yourself. https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/michael-bolton.gif

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
So we're gonna focus on the NT showing, while ignoring his numerous fights against the top ma like Daredevil...?

NT wasn't exactly a pushover in his tier of combatants, he just wasn't on BP's level just like Frank isn't.

This whole thread just got deathslashed

Originally posted by ODG
https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/michael-bolton.gif I provided you sufficient information and told you to look it up if you want it in finer detail, my job here is done.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
This whole thread just got deathslashed what does that even mean?

Originally posted by deathslash
I provided you sufficient information and told you to look it up if you want it in finer detail, my job here is done.
what does that even mean? https://ivysays.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/rage.gif

Originally posted by ODG
https://ivysays.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/rage.gif you're just having a field day with those gifs aren't you?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You want to lowball so much, sure, let's lowball.

According to handbooks, even WITH the HSH, BP is not a true peak human in all departments. Imagine how weak he is without HSH then!

While the Punisher was stated to be stronger than Black Widow, who has her own version of the Super Soldier Serum. Heh. Frank punches a hole through T'Challa!

... see? No point in lowballing.
No point at all.

Also, the mini BP respect thread is great and all, but i can link a Punisher respect thread that will show him taking ungodly damage and still killing room fulls (rooms full?) of opponents.

"at the speed of a blur"

Faster than Flash?

Originally posted by riv6672
No point at all.

Also, the mini BP respect thread is great and all, but i can link a Punisher respect thread that will show him taking ungodly damage and still killing room fulls (rooms full?) of opponents. if you can find displays of him against thugs, that good. However, about 90 percent of the scans that I brought up involve panther fighting against higher level martial artists.

While amped, yes.

This is BP fight to lose. He takes 9/10

Originally posted by deathslash
if you can find displays of him against thugs, that good. However, about 90 percent of the scans that I brought up involve panther fighting against higher level martial artists.

Thug fights or not, they do show Frank's insane damage soak -- his main asset.

As opposed to insane amps -- BPs main asset.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Thug fights or not, they do show Frank's insane damage soak -- his main asset.

How would damage soak fare against pressure point strikes?

Ask Daredevil, Castle kept fighting him despite having been subjected to nerve strikes.

Besides, Frank is not going to stand like a statue like Luke Cage the Fighter Supreme.

Originally posted by riv6672
While amped, yes. Originally posted by riv6672
As opposed to insane amps -- BPs main asset. you realize that none of the scans that I posted involved BP when he was amped right?

I do.
I can post scans of amped Punisher (angel, using villain/hero gear, Frankenweenie). I dont think any of those versions would beat standard BP, though.
Frank's best at that level, i give it to BP.
BPs best at Frank's level i give it to Frank.

Thats all i was trying to get at. So, going with the usual agree to disagree, in an amicable way.

Bloodstone Frankencastle would beat BP without trouble.

If you say so.
Not really a subject i want to get into, i'm all BPd out.

Originally posted by riv6672
Wolverine without his HF and claws isnt a top MA.
.

MA stands for martial artist, wolverine is a master of many many styles. He is a top MA it's an actual fact and the good thing about facts is they stay facts despite what we chose to ignore or assert.

Whatever, dude.

Well, it has to be posted:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111119363/3647706-sparring+1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111119363/3647707-sparring+2.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111119363/3647708-sparring+3.jpg

Cool.
IF at a 3 fighting a guy going twice as hard, who's fists are brass knuckles. Juk3n'll be impressed.

Originally posted by riv6672
Cool.
IF at a 3 fighting a guy going twice as hard, who's fists are brass knuckles. Juk3n'll be impressed.

That's taking their assertions at them fighting at a 3/6 at face value hehe.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, it has to be posted:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111119363/3647706-sparring+1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111119363/3647707-sparring+2.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111119363/3647708-sparring+3.jpg

Bendiswriting?

Smells like bendiswriting

Bendis, yes. He wanked IF more than he wanked Logan, though.

And somehow he made them both look shit.

Cage was/is his one true love.

Haha!