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...who is better trained in H2H?

A little background:
Was in a thread a few weeks back (not here), where a poster was claiming Cap had "travelled the world" training with "the best". Has trained with gods and aliens, etc.
Despite that not being an established part of his back story.
To my knowledge, Cap went through an intense "boot camp" after the SSS, then fought for 3-4 years, was frozen, and depending on where Marvel's sliding timeline's at, has been fighting with/leading the Avengers and having solo adventures for roughly what, 10-12 years? A little longer?
I know HE's trained people on the Avengers, though.

My question isnt if Cap can beat NW, though thats up to you to decide. I'm asking who's actually had the most/better training, given both characters' histories/timelines.
Use pre 52 NW, please, so as to better compare with Cap.

Cap has been unfrozen since the sixties though?

Cap has been trained by/with every avenger from Moon Dragon & Mantis to Shang Chi, Iron Fist & Wolverine.

The SSS does alot for Cap imo. There is no way in that short of an amount of time that Cap has trained in every martial art form on the planet. It's a little hard to believe that Batman has as well, but ya know, comics, and that's his thing. I think a fight between PreNu52 Nightwing and Cap would be alot better than people would give credit to Grayson for.

Why?

Steve is as good at preboot Grayson at his best attributes and better at everything else.

Cap isn't even close to Dick in acrobatic skills.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Cap isn't even close to Dick in acrobatic skills.



I'll play...

kindly present something Dick can do that, IYO, Cap is physically unable to replicate.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Cap isn't even close to Dick in acrobatic skills.



Not even a little close ?

Originally posted by riv6672
To my knowledge, Cap went through an intense "boot camp" after the SSS

After and before, I believe.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Why?

Steve is as good at preboot Grayson at his best attributes and better at everything else.

Preboot Grayson carried dozens of mini grenades, sonics, flashbangs, adhesives, an electric charge in his suit and a laser, off the top of my head. with his skill, he'd definitely make Steve work for it.

As for the topic at hand, I'd say that while Dick had better training in the beginning, they are both veterans of countless martial arts and super powered battles against and alongside anyone with any game in their universes. At this point, I'd say its pretty even.

Originally posted by riv6672
...who is better trained in H2H?

A little background:
Was in a thread a few weeks back (not here), where a poster was claiming Cap had "travelled the world" training with "the best". Has trained with gods and aliens, etc.
Despite that not being an established part of his back story.
To my knowledge, Cap went through an intense "boot camp" after the SSS, then fought for 3-4 years, was frozen, and depending on where Marvel's sliding timeline's at, has been fighting with/leading the Avengers and having solo adventures for roughly what, 10-12 years? A little longer?
I know HE's trained people on the Avengers, though.

My question isnt if Cap can beat NW, though thats up to you to decide. I'm asking who's actually had the most/better training, given both characters' histories/timelines.
Use pre 52 NW, please, so as to better compare with Cap. Grayson himself has had his history subjected to a crunched timeline. I recall posters going over this a year into the New 52. It turned out that Grayson, Todd and Drake were Robins for ludicrously short periods of time.

Nightwing trounces Cap in h2h skill, cap will probably win a fight due to enhanced stats due to the serum but this is a kid who was trained by Batman since his pre teen years, Batman > Nightwing > Cap in skills

LOL!!!

Originally posted by relentless1
Nightwing trounces Cap in...

You cant prove ANYthing that can possibly follow that start of that sentence. Though you'd try valiently, your cap library needs more reading.

Originally posted by relentless1
Nightwing trounces Cap in h2h skill, cap will probably win a fight due to enhanced stats due to the serum but this is a kid who was trained by Batman since his pre teen years, Batman > Nightwing > Cap in skills

Simply "training with" someone great doesn't necessarily mean you end up better trained. Is Tim Drake better trained because he studied under Lady Shiva AND Bruce?

If you're going to insist on sticing tothat logic, let me remind you that Cap trains with Shang Chi.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Cap has been unfrozen since the sixties though?
Seriously, man? Seriously?

Remember i'm just asking who's better trained.
The guy who's back story is being taken in and taught by Batman for over a decade while engaging grown criminals and super villains, or the guy who received 2-4 months training in WWII, had OJT for 3-4 years and has spent most of the modern era on a team.

Originally posted by riv6672
Remember i'm just asking who's better trained.
The guy who's back story is being taken in and taught by Batman for over a decade while engaging grown criminals and super villains, or the guy who received 2-4 months training in WWII, had OJT for 3-4 years and has spent most of the modern era on a team.

exactly, I'm not saying Nightwing would beat Cap in a fight necessarily so calm down, but i am saying he is better trained for sure

I wasnt directing that at you, specifically, just in general. Calm down.

Originally posted by riv6672
Remember i'm just asking who's better trained.
The guy who's back story is being taken in and taught by Batman for over a decade while engaging grown criminals and super villains, or the guy who received 2-4 months training in WWII, had OJT for 3-4 years and has spent most of the modern era on a team.

That is an answer to the question, "whose origin story had better opportunities for good training?" But that isn't the question you asked in this thread. You asked who IS better trained.

Does Steve, a grown super soldier with an enhanced brain as well as body, need to train as long as a child to wind up as well-trained in the end? Peobably not.

Did either Steve or Dick stop training with new and exotic masters once they started their solo careers? Not at all, they both train with the best all the time.

So just pointing to their origins doesn't really prove anything anymore.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying; you seem a little defensive.

Originally posted by riv6672
I wasnt directing that at you, specifically, just in general. Calm down.

haha, sorry, that wasn't directed at you either bro, just agreeing with you is all

Originally posted by riv6672
Remember i'm just asking who's better trained.
The guy who's back story is being taken in and taught by Batman for over a decade while engaging grown criminals and super villains, or the guy who received 2-4 months training in WWII, had OJT for 3-4 years and has spent most of the modern era on a team. So you want to completely ignore Grayson's crunched timeline also.

Might as well take mid-80's Cap with his 60's history intact and compare him to DCnU Grayson who had been Robin for less than a decade. This thread has no point.

Originally posted by Juk3n
I'll play...

kindly present something Dick can do that, IYO, Cap is physically unable to replicate.

Dick is able to do a quadruple backflip from a standing position. Show me Steve doing that.

Originally posted by relentless1
Nightwing trounces Cap in...

Originally posted by Juk3n
You cant prove ANYthing that can possibly follow that start of that sentence.

...Sleeping in the same bed with Bruce everynight?

Originally posted by ODG
So you want to completely ignore Grayson's crunched timeline also.

Might as well take mid-80's Cap with his 60's history intact and compare him to DCnU Grayson who had been Robin for less than a decade. This thread has no point.
I dont agree.
But thank you.

Captain America has never mastered a martial art, he's only an adept in everything.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Captain America has never mastered a martial art, he's only an adept in everything.

Is there on panel proof of this? I'd like to see the scan please.


To say Nightwing is more skilled is ludicrous in my opinion. Just because Steve doesn't stand there and spout off about what certain martial art he might be using, I guess that means he doesn't know any even though he's trained with and has trained some of the best ma's in the MU. I guess Cap just sits on his butt most of the time and purely depends on the SSS to win fights.

Well, thats what i'm hoping to figure out.

Cap is more skilled than Dick, no doubt about it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Dick is able to do a quadruple backflip from a standing position. Show me Steve doing that.

Cap can wipe his ass with his LEFT hand, show me Nightwing doing that, hell show me Superman doing that, hell show me Galactus doing that.

that's not how this works, though, i'll tone down the devils advocate and thank you for the contribution.

Dick has indeed done a quadruple backflip from standing, knowing what we know about Caps physical stats and his athleticism,are you saying you feel this feat is something Cap is UNABLE to do, or that he just hasn't done it on panel yet?

Be clear, he either hasn't done it or he can't, theyre not the same, id just like you to clarify.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Cap can wipe his ass with his LEFT hand, show me Nightwing doing that, hell show me Superman doing that, hell show me Galactus doing that.

that's not how this works, though, i'll tone down the devils advocate and thank you for the contribution.

Dick has indeed done a quadruple backflip from standing, knowing what we know about Caps physical stats and his athleticism,are you saying you feel this feat is something Cap is UNABLE to do, or that he just hasn't done it on panel yet?

Be clear, he either hasn't done it or he can't, theyre not the same, id just like you to clarify.
So in short, you don't have anything to show. Good luck with that reasoning though. And yes, I would say he can't do that. Cap isn't an acrobat like Dick or Matt.

^^^agree agree and agree.

Cap can jump higher and farther than Dick, but I guess that Grayson tuck will certainly win him the day.

Originally posted by ODG
So you want to completely ignore Grayson's crunched timeline also.

Might as well take mid-80's Cap with his 60's history intact and compare him to DCnU Grayson who had been Robin for less than a decade. This thread has no point. This thread has no point.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I would say he can't do that. Cap isn't an acrobat like Dick or Matt.

I can't tell if your serious..

What makes you think I'm joking? Prove me wrong with actual stuff instead of "Are you serious" strawman.

If Cap hasn't done a quadruple backflip in last fifty years and hundreds of comics, I doubt he can do it now.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What makes you think I'm joking? Prove me wrong with actual stuff instead of "Are you serious" strawman.

If Cap hasn't done a quadruple backflip in last fifty years and hundreds of comics, I doubt he can do it now.

Maybe hes just more practical than that. Maybe hes just never needed to do one, maybe the standard double or triple will do. And you're right he hasn't done a quadruple in all his appearances.

Has Nightwing ever inserted his thumb into his anus? Is he flexible enough to accomplish this feat? Its un clear because weve never seen him do it on panel...

LOL at Nightwing being the better fighter

Originally posted by abhilegend
What makes you think I'm joking? Prove me wrong with actual stuff instead of "Are you serious" strawman.

If Cap hasn't done a quadruple backflip in last fifty years and hundreds of comics, I doubt he can do it now.

Maybe he's not a show off?

Seriously, seek help.

Originally posted by riv6672
I dont agree.
But thank you. Originally posted by ODG
https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/michael-bolton.gif

Originally posted by Juk3n
Maybe hes just more practical than that. Maybe hes just never needed to do one, maybe the standard double or triple will do. And you're right he hasn't done a quadruple in all his appearances.

Has Nightwing ever inserted his thumb into his anus? Is he flexible enough to accomplish this feat? Its un clear because weve never seen him do it on panel...
Your sarcasm is duly noted and thrown in trash.

Anything else? Or are you trying to prove anything here?

Why don't just say that as Cap has never tried to destroy the planet doesn't mean he can't do it. Maybe he is a better detective than Batman, faster than Flash, stronger than Hulk and has better energy manipulation than Silver Surfer too. Just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean he can't do it, right?Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Maybe he's not a show off?

Seriously, seek help.
Who are you again?

I've looked at a lot of feats for this and this is my two cents.

Nightwing had a history of consistent high-end acrobatic feats that put him above other basically street for whom agility is not an explicit superpower. Cap has a history of consistently solid acrobatic feats that puts him about on par with other top streets, like Batman.

I think the argument that Nightwing was the better acrobat is the most reasonable one, given his feats and that being better at it than his CBPH contemporaries is a wee-established part of his character. That said, it is hard to look at any one feat and say, with absolute certainty, that Cap couldn't physically replicate it. But he doesnt tend to do those things and assuming that he can without proof seems contrary to the nature of this board.

Edit: I'd like to add that I find the anal fixation of of other "feats" we havent seen NW do to be both amusing and counter-productive, as those are things most ordinary humans can proveably do, while NW does things that many CBPH admit they can't. It's just not a valid comparison.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Cap can jump higher and farther than Dick, but I guess that Grayson tuck will certainly win him the day.
It will if we're rating them in acrobatics.
I'll bet on a gymnast over a long jumper if both are on the uneven parallel bars.

Originally posted by riv6672
It will if we're rating them in acrobatics.
I'll bet on a gymnast over a long jumper if both are on the uneven parallel bars. ... Lol ok? And Cap is better at swing dancing, how is that relevant?

I doubt you dont see my point, you just do t "lol, ok" like it.

That in a fight between these guys the Grayson Tuck is somehow relevant?

I have it straight from the thread starter, he never said anything about a fight.

Its okay, though. I already know how this is going to end up if i pursue it, so, i wont.

Nightwing