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Takes place in an unbreakable ufc octagon.

No bfr.

Who wins this H2H fight?

Herc

KMC KK can even beat SSJ4 Gogeta.

I thought Hercules was more or less about as strong and durable as Thor?

Because bfr is off thus judo throws to space aren't going to work.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Because bfr is off thus judo throws to space aren't going to work.

It's a good thing he doesn't need to judo throw him. Do you feel Karate Kid can't hurt Thor level beings? Don't be silly. He is also way way faster.

Explain how he wins, how he gets around the speed, etc.

? Gets around his speed...?

Most versions of Val have feats where they dodge/counter/redirect a high end speedster.

I know Hercs pretty fast for a brick, but he's not on Quicksilvers level, while Val is.

Edit: Never mind, I misread your post.and thought you were asking how Val could deal with Hercs speed.

Originally posted by Surtur
It's a good thing he doesn't need to judo throw him. Do you feel Karate Kid can't hurt Thor level beings? Don't be silly. He is also way way faster.

Explain how he wins, how he gets around the speed, etc. Most of KMC doesn't doubt Val's potential for fighting out of his weight class. But how many Hulk-level bricks has he actually defeated in pure H2H?

Originally posted by ODG
Most of KMC doesn't doubt Val's potential for fighting out of his weight class. But how many Hulk-level bricks has he actually defeated in pure H2H?

Beat Persuader in the old days, and he's a pretty tough brick even without the atomic axe.

KOed Pre Crisis Superboy, by spinning him around like a top from a choke hold.

Knocked around Kon El in sparring matches, while barely trying.

Held his own with Equus, breaking his legs and chopping off an arm (In seperate fights.)



Generally, it's true he does struggle to actually hurt "true invulnerable" types, though. Like, he never really KO'd pc Superboy or Mon El with strikes.

But durability in the pc era was treated differently, too. Superman could pummel Captain Marvel over an entire comic, for example, and won't draw a drop of blood or any mention of pain from Cap worse then "Starting to get a little tired. Must be because the Rock of Eternity is farther away."

Originally posted by ODG
Most of KMC doesn't doubt Val's potential for fighting out of his weight class. But how many Hulk-level bricks has he actually defeated in pure H2H?

He beat the shit out of someone Supergirl was having trouble with. That is all that really needs to be said. Oh, did I mention he was sick and dying at the time?

It comes down to two facts: he can absolutely hurt Herc, and is absolutely much faster.

Originally posted by Surtur
He beat the shit out of someone Supergirl was having trouble with. That is all that really needs to be said. Oh, did I mention he was sick and dying at the time?

It comes down to two facts: he can absolutely hurt Herc, and is absolutely much faster.

Yep.

On feats, Val blows Mantis away in sheer striking feats. The guys penetrated a super metal even Superboy struggled to damage.

I was overly impressed with KK when he slapped his hand down and caused an avalanche showing Ultra Boy that pure strength isn't the end all be all.

Originally posted by cdtm
Yep.

On feats, Val blows Mantis away in sheer striking feats. The guys penetrated a super metal even Superboy struggled to damage. So he's like Karnak or Mandarin w/o rings or current Shang Chi. All of whom have super high-end feats but you turn around and see them sparring with the likes of Batman, Black Panther and Cap.

Taking only his high-end feats against a D-list character while ignoring everything else isn't exactly inspiring confidence here.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Because bfr is off thus judo throws to space aren't going to work. Haha when has Herc ever been capable of FTL speed? The reason that KK could "bfr Mon-el into deep space with a judo throw" was because his atack was a FTL blitz attack. If he wasnt moving that fast the throw wouldnt have sent him that far.

Originally posted by ODG
So he's like Karnak or Mandarin w/o rings or current Shang Chi. All of whom have super high-end feats but you turn around and see them sparring with the likes of Batman, Black Panther and Cap.

Taking only his high-end feats against a D-list character while ignoring everything else isn't exactly inspiring confidence here.

No absolutely nothing like that. Val doesnt have many low feats to detract from his high at all. Frankly the only normal human I even recall him fighting was Batman. The fact that Batman did any good at all IMHO was complete and utter PIS to appease the Bat fanbase. Yes I know Val was dying at the time and was with without his memory but even that shouldnt have made it possible.

Originally posted by beatboks
No absolutely nothing like that. Val doesnt have many low feats to detract from his high at all. Frankly the only normal human I even recall him fighting was Batman. The fact that Batman did any good at all IMHO was complete and utter PIS to appease the Bat fanbase. Yes I know Val was dying at the time and was with without his memory but even that shouldnt have made it possible. If I read his feats from The Lightning Saga and Countdown forward, doesn't seem offensive. So what beyond those two storylines suggests that the Batman fight was utter nonsense? And it's already happened in this thread, but I'd rather not mix different timeline Karate Kids and pretend like all their feats are interchangeable or shared.

can herc withstand being pummeled by Val's hands and legs?

Originally posted by ODG
So he's like Karnak or Mandarin w/o rings or current Shang Chi. All of whom have super high-end feats but you turn around and see them sparring with the likes of Batman, Black Panther and Cap.

Taking only his high-end feats against a D-list character while ignoring everything else isn't exactly inspiring confidence here.

I'll save an argument on whether any street should be fighting a guy who beats the crap out of Iron Man for another day..

I did list a bunch of feats besides his showing against "d lister" Equuis. But, an important difference here is Val was established in his first story as being able to fight Superboy on an even level using nothing by "karate".

His "Karnak" like feats of breaking through Inertron (the super metal I mentioned that PC Superboy couldn't break through), diamonds, force fields, and thh Emerald Eye are supporting evidence of his striking power.

And being able to hit PC Superboy as Superboy comments on how fast he is, or dodge Ultra Boy when it's specifically stated he's using super speed, or dodging and countering the Flash level Tornado Twins supports him operating at a high level of speed. As does dodging Wally West in the form of speed force lightning while holding a lightning rod designed to attract him.

Further, there's various random feats like the snow punch already mentioned, or stomping to create a counter shockwave to Major Disasters shockwave, or the feat of Val trapping PC Superboy in a choke hold indefinately, until he decided to spin him around like a top so fast he passed out. Or, the other time he held PC Superboy in a "muscle lock" hold..

Of course, Val certainly has lesser showings, as does everyone. As does Herc... didn't he get dropped by Iron Fist once?

Originally posted by ODG
If I read his feats from The Lightning Saga and Countdown forward, doesn't seem offensive. So what beyond those two storylines suggests that the Batman fight was utter nonsense? And it's already happened in this thread, but I'd rather not mix different timeline Karate Kids and pretend like all their feats are interchangeable or shared.

That's because the Lightning Legion is basically the Levitz Legion. They even referenced Val's first death, without explaining how he was resurrected.

Originally posted by ODG
If I read his feats from The Lightning Saga and Countdown forward, doesn't seem offensive. So what beyond those two storylines suggests that the Batman fight was utter nonsense? And it's already happened in this thread, but I'd rather not mix different timeline Karate Kids and pretend like all their feats are interchangeable or shared.

The chaacter rarely if ever faces normal humans in H2H. The only Normal humans he has ever faced d I nt fight that way (Adam Orian and Celebrand both use weapons) they are literally the only normal level enemies I can think of. Everyone else hes ever fought could just as easily take a fight to the more powerful Legionares. Even the generic Black Mace could make a fight with any legionare except Superboy, Mon-el, Supergirl and Ultra-boy. He was like a 60 odd tonner. Grimbor the Chainsman also had super strength. Look at who they came up with to kill him, Nemisi kid literally had the power to develop what ever power he needed to defeat someone. That's the character who actually beat KK in a fight.

Originally posted by ODG
If I read his feats from The Lightning Saga and Countdown forward, doesn't seem offensive. So what beyond those two storylines suggests that the Batman fight was utter nonsense? And it's already happened in this thread, but I'd rather not mix different timeline Karate Kids and pretend like all their feats are interchangeable or shared. what was really offensive was superman's list. He had batman listed as just one rank lower than val in h2h skill. Either superman was high at the time, or it was complete and utter PIS to appease the batman fanboys. To add to that, IIRC, bruce's first attack that landed on val was nothing more than a street fighting technique.

Originally posted by deathslash
what was really offensive was superman's list. He had batman listed as just one rank lower than val in h2h skill. Either superman was high at the time, or it was complete and utter PIS to appease the batman fanboys. To add to that, IIRC, bruce's first attack that landed on val was nothing more than a street fighting technique.

And he still looked tons better then the space karate fight with 3boot Val.

Both are still lightyears ahead of thr old Brave and the Bold teamups, when Val was struggling with random thugs for some reason.

I'm sure Val does have low showings. But his high end consistent showings just show he wins this fight. Again, he beats down Supergirl level villains while sick and dying. He dodges lightning after being hit with it. He casually redirects a daxamite and tosses him into another solar system. He negates earthquakes by tapping his foot. He damages metal so durable PC Superboy needed the "strength of insanity" just to break it.

He's not going to lose to frickin Hercules.

in this ring scenario, his speed is nullified though. herc could instantly obliterate the ground with a massive shockwave, then thunderclap with near hulk level. regardless, it depends entirely on which val.

He could. I'd argue Val could avoid/roll with a thunderclap the same way he rolls with a Kryptonian level punch though. (Plus, he has his flight ring.)

But even if it worked, using tactics like that against a non super powered mortal might cut against his grain. Low blowing Sentry is one thing, doing it to a guy even his peers mock for having no super powers is another.

don't think i'd buy the second part--herc would just know he has 'super karate', (seriously, can any power be more lame sounding...? lol) so i don't think a thunderclap would be too untoward. and the impact would be pretty hard to roll with....never seen anyone roll with a thunderclap before i don't think. the flight ring would be a problem though. herc would need to pulverize the battlefield and blind val (and himself) with rock dust, then just start heaving sh!t all over the place and get lucky eventually. he's an underrated fighter, and he isn't nearly as stupid as he is at times portrayed (or portrays himself....) i think the ring aids herc in this battle--or hinders val more likely. still, likely depends on which val we're talking about and how exactly you see the battle going down. i don't see speed being a huge factor only because of how i see herc having to fight this match (ie, he wouldn't just stand there and trade blows, imo). just how fast can a flight ring move him, anyway....?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111129725/4200293-karate+kid+is+ftl.jpg

between a thunderclap and a complete dust storm that blinds both of them, not sure how that is going to help too much....if he stayed and fought h2h, depending on which val, herc would lose. but that doesn't mean he has no options here....

Originally posted by cdtm
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111129725/4200293-karate+kid+is+ftl.jpg Which Karate Kid is this? The Threeboot one?

Is there a reason Legion-related characters get to share their multiple alternate versions' feats interchangeably here on KMC?

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm sure Val does have low showings. But his high end consistent showings just show he wins this fight. Again, he beats down Supergirl level villains while sick and dying. He dodges lightning after being hit with it. He casually redirects a daxamite and tosses him into another solar system. He negates earthquakes by tapping his foot. He damages metal so durable PC Superboy needed the "strength of insanity" just to break it.

He's not going to lose to frickin Hercules. Originally posted by ODG
Is there a reason Legion-related characters get to share their multiple alternate versions' feats interchangeably here on KMC?

Which version of Val are we using? I feel Zero Hour and PC has the better feats.

To Leo, Val can fight blinded nearly as well as seeing. But i don't see Val getting around a thunderclap if they are fighting at the same speed.

Originally posted by ODG
Which Karate Kid is this? The Threeboot one?

Is there a reason Legion-related characters get to share their multiple alternate versions' feats interchangeably here on KMC?

A fair question.

And no idea. To be fair, the same thing happens with Superman.

If it was up to me, I'd go with the modern version, but then we'd have to debate if Lightning Saga and PC Val are one and the same.

Originally posted by ODG
Which Karate Kid is this? The Threeboot one?

Is there a reason Legion-related characters get to share their multiple alternate versions' feats interchangeably here on KMC?
That's from pre threeboot. I have the issue somewhere, and yes Mon-el was possessed or some such which meant he was blood lusted. The speed thing however isn't going to play here. The flight ring literally allows you to move as fast as those around you. So in flight (as he was aerobatic ally dodging Mon-el's heat vision) he should match Mon-el in speed

The reason why a lot of LoSH maintains all continuity Is because there was less changes to continuity for Legion than any other. Post COIE they specifically came up with the time trapper created pocket universe so that pre COIE Superboy could still exist just to maintain pre crisis continuity post crisis. Hey did make changes to the continuity in the 90's but more back ground story wise. Plus they did the galactic war thing where many members of legion were on different sides and the after effects of the war. Infinite crisis set it back to pre COIE again.

So Lightning Saga is, in fact, THE Pre Crisis Legion?

I know Five Years Later never happened, and that's my favorite Legion era.

Originally posted by cdtm
So Lightning Saga is, in fact, THE Pre Crisis Legion?

I know Five Years Later never happened, and that's my favorite Legion era.
basically yes. There is confusion because the threeboot version (aan alternste reality one) was still running upmuntil 2008 or 9 (I can never remember which).

The original pre crisis continuity remained through till about zero hOur. At that point the names and orogins of several Legionares changed and the LoSH universe became a little darker.

The thing that gives the lightning saga away as the rebooted pre COIE continuity is the names, in each of the divergent continuities DC got away from the whole kid, lass, lad naming thing and went back to it with infinite crisis as a shkw of returning to its roots.

Ironically 5 years later is ab I ut the inly alternate continuity I actually liked. Because it explored more in a lot of the characters. If they'd continued down that path I wouldn't have minded a bit

Originally posted by beatboks
That's from pre threeboot. I have the issue somewhere, and yes Mon-el was possessed or some such which meant he was blood lusted. The speed thing however isn't going to play here. The flight ring literally allows you to move as fast as those around you. So in flight (as he was aerobatic ally dodging Mon-el's heat vision) he should match Mon-el in speed So Universe-247 then and, therefore, that isn't the "original" version we saw running around in The Lightning Saga or Countdown. Originally posted by beatboks
The reason why a lot of LoSH maintains all continuity No. No, it doesn't maintain a lot of continuity. Had this discussion with people trying to ignore the retcons Geoff Johns was actively performing to the original Legion during his run on Superman: Secret Origin and Action Comics. And Universe-247's and Threeboot Legion's separate continuity was completely solidified during the Legion of 3 Worlds storyline.

The crisis apparently didn't effect the Legion or some shit, but you really don't need his pre crisis feats for him to win this, so it's moot. Non pre crisis Val still did the "beat down guy Supergirl has trouble with while sick" and "dodge speed force infused lightning" and all that. He still wins.

I'm sure there are versions out there he could beat. Legion of Super heroes cartoon? Herc totally beats that version of Karate Kid. Recent animated film with Karate Kid and someone else fighting Time Trapper? Herc totally wins that too. Karate Kid as in..Daniel-San? Big win for Herc.

Originally posted by leonidas
in this ring scenario, his speed is nullified though. herc could instantly obliterate the ground with a massive shockwave, then thunderclap with near hulk level. regardless, it depends entirely on which val.

A UFC ring doesn't nullify his speed. He still moves too fast to get hit, and can hit Herc before he does anything. Why would the ring stop this? He doesn't need a huge open field to dodge Herc. He could just stand in place and dodge every punch thrown.

Also, Val could obliterate the ground as well. But this is supposed to be hand to hand fight, which is why I didn't bring that up. I assumed they'd actually be engaging each other..hand to hand. If the only course of action for Herc is "destroy the ring and then thunderclap" it shows why he probably shouldn't be up against a guy like Val in h2h if the strategy is "don't ever ever let him get anywhere near you".

Originally posted by Surtur
The crisis apparently didn't effect the Legion or some shit, but you really don't need his pre crisis feats for him to win this, so it's moot. Non pre crisis Val still did the "beat down guy Supergirl has trouble with while sick" and "dodge speed force infused lightning" and all that. He still wins. Originally posted by ODG
So he's like Karnak or Mandarin w/o rings or current Shang Chi. All of whom have super high-end feats but you turn around and see them sparring with the likes of Batman, Black Panther and Cap.

Taking only his high-end feats against a D-list character while ignoring everything else isn't exactly inspiring confidence here.

Right, so you need to use his low end feats in order to say he loses? Alrighty. We can ignore all the variety of impressive feats because hey he sparred with Batman.

Originally posted by Surtur
Right, so you need to use his low end feats in order to say he loses? Alrighty. We can ignore all the variety of impressive feats because hey he sparred with Batman. Right, so you need to use his highest end feats in order to say he wins? Alrighty. We can ignore all the variety of lesser feats because hey he knocked around C-lister Equus.

How do you spell irony on the internet?

Originally posted by ODG
Right, so you need to use his highest end feats in order to say he wins? Alrighty. We can ignore all the variety of lesser feats because hey he knocked around C-lister Equus.

How do you spell irony on the internet?

But he consistently does crazy crap like the stuff I mentioned, is the entire problem you don't seem to get. To suggest because he spars with Batman has..any effect on this fight is silly.

If someone posted Karate Kid vs Batman right now, what would you say your response would be?

Originally posted by Surtur
But he consistently does crazy crap like the stuff I mentioned If you just ignore that massive amounts of his history was retconned and try to blend in three different incarnations' worth of feats into a single character because, y'know, you'd rather argue about an imaginary theory version of the character instead of the actual one.

So we don't count high end consistent feats because he has low end feats as well. I see.

Yeah sure, using low end feats he loses.

Originally posted by Surtur
So we don't count high end consistent feats Because you're only referring to two feats while ignoring his other feats that you don't like, just because and pretend that he has this vast history that you pretend you can amalgamate from other alternate versions of him.

Instead of taking him as a whole, on his own, without trying to ignore continuity and consistency and common sense.

The three C's that people here on KMC try to ignore when arguing blindly about their chosen character.

Val damn near soloed Fatal Five. Are we talking about Hercules being above someone like Validus?



His fight with Batman happened when he was dying with Morticoccous virus. If we're taking the latest Karate Kid which was pre crisis Val, he would beat the shit out of Hercules.

Originally posted by ODG
Because you're only referring to two feats while ignoring his other feats that you don't like, just because and pretend that he has this vast history that you pretend you can amalgamate from other alternate versions of him.

Instead of taking him as a whole, on his own, without trying to ignore continuity and consistency and common sense.

The three C's that people here on KMC try to ignore when arguing blindly about their chosen character.

We are talking about common sense in a thread where people are bringing up "he loses because he sparred Batman"?

Originally posted by Surtur
The crisis apparently didn't effect the Legion or some shit, but you really don't need his pre crisis feats for him to win this, so it's moot. Non pre crisis Val still did the "beat down guy Supergirl has trouble with while sick" and "dodge speed force infused lightning" and all that. He still wins.

I'm sure there are versions out there he could beat. Legion of Super heroes cartoon? Herc totally beats that version of Karate Kid. Recent animated film with Karate Kid and someone else fighting Time Trapper? Herc totally wins that too. Karate Kid as in..Daniel-San? Big win for Herc.



A UFC ring doesn't nullify his speed. He still moves too fast to get hit, and can hit Herc before he does anything. Why would the ring stop this? He doesn't need a huge open field to dodge Herc. He could just stand in place and dodge every punch thrown.

Also, Val could obliterate the ground as well. But this is supposed to be hand to hand fight, which is why I didn't bring that up. I assumed they'd actually be engaging each other..hand to hand. If the only course of action for Herc is "destroy the ring and then thunderclap" it shows why he probably shouldn't be up against a guy like Val in h2h if the strategy is "don't ever ever let him get anywhere near you".

well, tbh, the whole 'he went up against someone who gave supergirl trouble' argument isn't doing much to convince me. which bricks has he defeated? his speed would be nullified if he were blind and choking on the battlefield--something that wouldn't be able to happen in an open area. and if herc discovered he wasn't able to hit him, those are the sorts of tactics he would absolutely undertake. what's he supposed to do--stand there is get hit?

and wasn't there a fight somewhere where supergirl told val he could kick her a 1000 times or something and she'd never feel it? anyway, i'd love to see some scans of val beating down someone of herc's level of strength and durability. something not pre-crisis would be cool to see.

Originally posted by Surtur
common sense Acquire some, plz, kthxbai

Ok now I'm confused (easily done, however).

What has the Karate Kid that's being used in this thread done? What are his highs, what are his lows?

been asking for (though not is so many words....) the same thing for a while now...

About the argument of high-end vs low-end: let's ask ourselves what happens when Flash faces the Antimonitor compared to what happens when he faces a normal Rogue. Similarly, Hulk versus everybody as opposed to Hulk versus Daredevil. Based on what you've read from both sides into account, what would the imagined scenario be if Karate Kid faced off against Hercules in a comic? Remember now, this isn't about just power/skill-set vs power/skill-set. If that were the case, we'd always ignore lower-end feats, ha ha.

If this were to happen in a comic, Hercules, though a fun character, doesn't demand the seriousness of being portrayed at highest ability (unless it's a story in which he boasts about himself, in which case he goes beyond his power-set). On the other hand, Karated Kid, in multiple versions, has signature moments vs the top-elite class.

If these two were to ever meet in comic-context, what would happen? I'd say Hercules would be quite surprised when Karate Kids pulls out telepathicjitsu that he learned from a space octopus.

Wait, now we're giving him Batman 1M feats???

Val destroys Hercules easily. he is DEFINED as being able to take on PRe-Crisis- level top tiers i.e. Skyfather level characters.

lol

Originally posted by abhilegend
Val damn near soloed Fatal Five. Are we talking about Hercules being above someone like Validus?



His fight with Batman happened when he was dying with Morticoccous virus. If we're taking the latest Karate Kid which was pre crisis Val, he would beat the shit out of Hercules.

Yep. Val wasn't a 100% at the time and still managed to grab his utility belt. Bad ass.

Originally posted by leonidas
well, tbh, the whole 'he went up against someone who gave supergirl trouble' argument isn't doing much to convince me. which bricks has he defeated? his speed would be nullified if he were blind and choking on the battlefield--something that wouldn't be able to happen in an open area. and if herc discovered he wasn't able to hit him, those are the sorts of tactics he would absolutely undertake. what's he supposed to do--stand there is get hit?

and wasn't there a fight somewhere where supergirl told val he could kick her a 1000 times or something and she'd never feel it? anyway, i'd love to see some scans of val beating down someone of herc's level of strength and durability. something not pre-crisis would be cool to see.

During that time when he faced Kara, he was dying of the Morticoccous virus.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait, now we're giving him Batman 1M feats???

What? Space octopus telepathy jitsu is a thing? Are you kidding me? Gotta read some Batman 1M.

Originally posted by Invisible Sanji
What? Space octopus telepathy jitsu is a thing? Are you kidding me? Gotta read some Batman 1M.

Its so specific, I find it hard to believe you came up with it in isolation...

lol again.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Its so specific, I find it hard to believe you came up with it in isolation...

I was thinking of something weird that could happen and not something Karate Kid specific, but I wasn't thinking Batman 1 M at all. I did read the Morrison JLA series a long time ago, so I must have known this, but I swear I didn't realize it until after you mentioned it, and I googled it to jog my memory. At first I thought you were referring to something new that I never read: Justice League 3000 series (which I thought was a DC 1M comic, but I guess not). My bad for attributing a Batman 1 M move to KK. I'd like to change it to Daxamite death-grip or w/e. Ha ha, I always joke about octopus-telepathy-martial-arts when I'm watching UFC w/ friends, never realizing I was referencing DC 1 M this whole time.

Originally posted by leonidas
well, tbh, the whole 'he went up against someone who gave supergirl trouble' argument isn't doing much to convince me. which bricks has he defeated? his speed would be nullified if he were blind and choking on the battlefield--something that wouldn't be able to happen in an open area. and if herc discovered he wasn't able to hit him, those are the sorts of tactics he would absolutely undertake. what's he supposed to do--stand there is get hit?

and wasn't there a fight somewhere where supergirl told val he could kick her a 1000 times or something and she'd never feel it? anyway, i'd love to see some scans of val beating down someone of herc's level of strength and durability. something not pre-crisis would be cool to see.

Equus gave Superman trouble too, though. He's basically a brick with near Shaggy Man regen and enough strength to hang with the heavy hitters (He also has angel wing claws which exploit a magic weakness in Superman, but he was clearly physically powerful in his own right.)

Anyways, if we're ommiting pre crisis feats, this version of Val isn't going to have long list, having only existed in Lightning Saga and Countdown. His best feat is probably dodging Flash.

While holding a lightning rod to attract him in speed lightning form back to Earth. Anyone else would have been struck, and his Legion friends apparently fully expected him to either die or get seriously hurt since they asked him why he wasn't hit, to which he responded with a smirk, "I ducked".

No one take KK seriously.

Feats were given for Val, both for pre and post crisis versions. People just made asinine arguments. I've seen PLENTY of threads where "this person is tough because they fought this person" is brought up as legit, but of course in this thread..saying Karate Kid friggin tore apart a guy Supergirl had trouble with while he was sick and dying? Nah, that doesn't count for..reasons! Asinine reasons like "he is c-list" or "oh this doesn't count for this character because on KMC we selectively apply rules to different characters".

Like someone else said, Val post crisis doesn't have a vast amount of feats, and the feats I am mentioning are just off the top of my head, not the only feats he has to his name.

I mean hey he sparred Batman, but he also sparred with Ultra Boy(post crisis) but lets ignore that and just mention Batman when we talk about him sparring.

If anyone's lawballing Val based on the Batman thing, there's two pretty important factors being ignored:

1. Val wasn't in his right mind.

2. He still didn't look much worse against Batman then Superman did in Hush. (Seriously, they both were ooc, so how is it we dismiss the Superman showing as PIS, and accept Val underperforming.as normal?)

Originally posted by Surtur
Feats were given for Val, both for pre and post crisis versions. Because you just get to ignore continuity and pretend everything blends together with no justification. Yeah, we got that and it was summarily dismissed accordingly.

Best leave the discussion to others.

Originally posted by Surtur
Feats were given for Val, both for pre and post crisis versions. People just made asinine arguments. I've seen PLENTY of threads where "this person is tough because they fought this person" is brought up as legit, but of course in this thread..saying Karate Kid friggin tore apart a guy Supergirl had trouble with while he was sick and dying? Nah, that doesn't count for..reasons! Asinine reasons like "he is c-list" or "oh this doesn't count for this character because on KMC we selectively apply rules to different characters".

i....don't know what you're getting all uppity about. first, i'd take exception in any thread, with anyone who tried using the same level of argument that i've seen here. there's nothing 'asinine' about looking for more proof than what has been provided. at all.

the batman stuff--who cares? i don't even know who said anything about bats in this thread. and c-list? who cares? again, i have no idea where or who even said it. you however, are the one claiming he easily beats down one of the top 3 bricks in marvel by, seemingly, using feats from....all over the map. i was simply curious about 2 things (in my first post i even SAID it depended on which version of kk....)--who has he beaten and what version are we using. instead it seems we get ALL versions, and i get 'he beat someone supergirl had trouble with'. i don't even know what 'trouble' means, as it is utterly ill-defined. she's had trouble with LOADS of people, some clearly less powerful than her because, well, that's comics. so i assume you feel kk would as easily crush thor, since he too would be grossly outmatched in terms of speed, yes?

hulk? would he crush hulk? i'm legitimately curious--in marvel who do you think could beat him in h2h for a majority?

Originally posted by leonidas
i....don't know what you're getting all uppity about. first, i'd take exception in any thread, with anyone who tried using the same level of argument that i've seen here. there's nothing 'asinine' about looking for more proof than what has been provided. at all.

the batman stuff--who cares? i don't even know who said anything about bats in this thread. and c-list? who cares? again, i have no idea where or who even said it. you however, are the one claiming he easily beats down one of the top 3 bricks in marvel by, seemingly, using feats from....all over the map. i was simply curious about 2 things (in my first post i even SAID it depended on which version of kk....)--who has he beaten and what version are we using. instead it seems we get ALL versions, and i get 'he beat someone supergirl had trouble with'. i don't even know what 'trouble' means, as it is utterly ill-defined. she's had trouble with LOADS of people, some clearly less powerful than her because, well, that's comics. so i assume you feel kk would as easily crush thor, since he too would be grossly outmatched in terms of speed, yes?

hulk? would he crush hulk? i'm legitimately curious--in marvel who do you think could beat him in h2h for a majority?

The main question as far as I'm concerned:

Do.we get to use Lighning Saga AND Pre Crisis feats?

There's precedence with the New Gods, where you could go all the way back to Lightray farting out suns to slow down Black Racer for feats.

Originally posted by cdtm
The main question as far as I'm concerned:

Do.we get to use Lighning Saga AND Pre Crisis feats? I dunno, you tell us and your reasons why certain pre-Crisis adventures should stick. I suspect you'd agree that any LoSH adventures that dealt with the original Supergirl or teen Lex Luthor were still retconned. As Geoff Johns brought back the pre-Crisis versions but ended up reinforcing these particular retcons anyway.

And if the generalities of their history are too expansive to deal with, offer some particular pre-Crisis feats that you're interested in adding to the discussion and give some issue #s so we can verify they weren't subject to massive retcons.