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I don't know because I don't want to sin.

the answer to your first three questions is: NO...

why combine two different verses? the passage on Genesis 3:22 was said in the time of Adam while Matthew 5:48 was said by Jesus in His preachings... you condemn literal reading but you are being literal yourself...

From what I've gathered Greatest is being literal in his readings on propose because he despises literal readings of the Bible.

I, personally, don't see the value of that general strategy, specially considering the literal readers in this site are a very slim (or at least mostly silent) minority.

It's not the tree of knowledge it's the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Evil didn't exist prior to the original sin, so man couldn't have know about it.

And God forbade Adam and Eve to eat from the tree, and clarified that they'd die if they did.

And the Book of Mathew does not apply to the garden of Eden.

Originally posted by Astner
Evil didn't exist prior to the original sin,

No war in heaven then?

Originally posted by Bentley
No war in heaven then?
The war specified in Revelations will take place at the end-times.

Originally posted by Astner
The war specified in Revelations will take place at the end-times.

So technically the state of Lucifer's fall from grace is "it hasn't happened yet"? Does that mean he's still in Heaven and hasn't tried to overcome God? For whatever reason I had that event prior to the creation of men, but I guess that could also work.

Originally posted by Astner
The war specified in Revelations will take place at the end-times.

A war did happen in Heaven, and still continues this day. Satan was cast from Heaven, and fell to Earth.

Revelation 12:7-12 talks about the casting out of Satan-two times. One was at the beginning when he rebelled in Heaven, just before creation of life on earth, and the second was at Calvary.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

This war was in Heaven; two groups against each other-

Michael and the loyal angels on one side, and Satan and his angels on the other side. In this first battle Satan and his sympathizers lost their place in Heaven. They were thrown out from Heaven to earth.

Obviously, this earth was still uninhabited. It was "without form and void and darkness was on the face of the deep" (Genesis 1:2).

God had to throw him out of Heaven into a particular place. As the whole universe is God's, Satan had to be somewhere in God's vast creation. And earth was the place.

And when God created life on planet earth (according to His prior plan and set time), He warned Adam and Eve of this wily foe.

Satan would not have got a hold on this planet had Adam and Eve stood the simplest of test, just once! God then would have cut short the time period of Satan.

Also it is not a sin to seek knowledge, it is what a person does with that knowledge. This is something that should be common knowledge, nor should it be difficult to realize.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Too much knowledge is evil because it brings into question the authority of the Church.

If people had real knowledge they might invent things like science and discover that the Earth is not flat, and the heavens are not filled with angels.

"It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;"
Isaiah 40:22

Hebrew word chuwg (H2329) means circle, sphere, circuit, compass...

Originally posted by dyajeep
the answer to your first three questions is: NO...

why combine two different verses? the passage on Genesis 3:22 was said in the time of Adam while Matthew 5:48 was said by Jesus in His preachings... you condemn literal reading but you are being literal yourself...

Nice deflection.

The issue is knowledge. Not the cherry picking that all your preachers do.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Bentley
From what I've gathered Greatest is being literal in his readings on propose because he despises literal readings of the Bible.

I, personally, don't see the value of that general strategy, specially considering the literal readers in this site are a very slim (or at least mostly silent) minority.

Literally read or not, those are the pertinent passages I chose to use.

Should I have just make something up so that Christians could complain about that?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Astner
It's not the tree of knowledge it's the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Evil didn't exist prior to the original sin, so man couldn't have know about it.

And God forbade Adam and Eve to eat from the tree, and clarified that they'd die if they did.

And the Book of Mathew does not apply to the garden of Eden.

Irrelevant and ignoring the issue says that you cannot justify God's actions in Eden.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by dyajeep
"It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;"
Isaiah 40:22

Hebrew word chuwg (H2329) means circle, sphere, circuit, compass...

True.

The ancients stupidly thought that the stars were attached to a sphere way up in the heavens that rotated around the earth.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Literally read or not, those are the pertinent passages I chose to use.

Should I have just make something up so that Christians could complain about that?

Regards
DL

Neither is the issue. Let's assume there are pertinent passages because religion is somehow valid, how do we deal with possible interpretations of those texts? For religious people it's a legitimate problem unless they are literalists or follow orthodox rules without thinking.

Originally posted by Astner
It's not the tree of knowledge it's the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Evil didn't exist prior to the original sin, so man couldn't have know about it.

And God forbade Adam and Eve to eat from the tree, and clarified that they'd die if they did.

And the Book of Mathew does not apply to the garden of Eden.

It almost makes you wonder why God created a death fruit tree in the Garden of Eden.

Of course not.

I don't quite understand why you're concluding this had to take place before Genesis 1:2. Yes, I would agree that, according to the Bible, Jesus was present at Creation. But he would have been present in all the intervening years from Creation until he spoke those words to his Apostles. Why could Satan's fall not have happened sometime BETWEEN Creation and Jesus's speech to the Apostles that you quoted?

For that matter, I'm unconvinced that, speaking as often as Bible characters do in prophecy, that is speaking of events to come, that Jesus himself was not prophesying what was to occur in a future day. As the Lord, after all, he would have seen a great deal of what the future held, if not all of it.


I would be especially interested in how you arrive at your dating of events given the following Bible passage:


6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 1:6-12, King James Edition

Seems like God totally had plenty of chances to kill Satan. We also see God asking Satan questions that..being God, he already knows the answer to anyways. Then God appears to just let the dude walk away.

Originally posted by Surtur
Seems like God totally had plenty of chances to kill Satan. We also see God asking Satan questions that..being God, he already knows the answer to anyways. Then God appears to just let the dude walk away.

Satan IS a problematic concept. Were it not for evil appearing so personal, yet institutional and deliberate in the world ...

Originally posted by Surtur
Seems like God totally had plenty of chances to kill Satan. We also see God asking Satan questions that..being God, he already knows the answer to anyways. Then God appears to just let the dude walk away.

But Satan is just a scapegoat. All the things that people do wrong in the world, are blamed on Satan. God would never kill Satan, cause what would we do without a scapegoat.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But Satan is just a scapegoat. All the things that people do wrong in the world, are blamed on Satan. God would never kill Satan, cause what would we do without a scapegoat.

I think it is a case of..Satan was a dick, but he isn't responsible for all the evil. But this just means God had one of his kids basically just to use him/it as a scapegoat for all the bad stuff people do.

Still though, wiping the dude out would still probably of benefited humanity.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I don't quite understand why you're concluding this had to take place before Genesis 1:2. Yes, I would agree that, according to the Bible, Jesus was present at Creation. But he would have been present in all the intervening years from Creation until he spoke those words to his Apostles. Why could Satan's fall not have happened sometime BETWEEN Creation and Jesus's speech to the Apostles that you quoted?

For that matter, I'm unconvinced that, speaking as often as Bible characters do in prophecy, that is speaking of events to come, that Jesus himself was not prophesying what was to occur in a future day. As the Lord, after all, he would have seen a great deal of what the future held, if not all of it.


I would be especially interested in how you arrive at your dating of events given the following Bible passage:


6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 1:6-12, King James Edition

Hold on a second here. I'm answering a question that Bentley asked. He asked whether or not a battle happened in heaven which ejected Satan out of heaven. I'm proving that at least one did. More than one celestial battle has been forecast in the bible. Job was born well before John the baptist, and it was written in that time well before the birth of Jesus that Satan come before God, and the sons of God. He does this in an attempt to tempt Job into denouncing God. It was clear that Satan did not belong in the assemblage, because God even asks what he was doing there. Read job and you will see. Satan is allowed to go to heaven, he is just unable to remain there. It could be his very nature that keeps him from living in heaven permanently. It is certain however that no matter what happens, when judgement is done heaven and earth will be destroyed, and a new kingdom of God will exist. As far as giving a concrete date on the events being spoken of, this isn't something that anyone can do, and it becomes trivial unto itself.

Jesus said that he saw Satan as he was cast out of heaven like a beam of light, or ejected from heaven at the speed that lightning can travel. This happened before he (Jesus) ever walked among the apostles. This also includes before John the baptist, and even Abraham who came before him were ever born. There are a series of battles in heaven that have been forecast in the bible. An Angel that had a message for Daniel had been occupied for months before he could deliver a message. The don't believe that the Angel had a name, but a demonic name was given. The Angel wrestled against the Prince of Persia, which is what took him so long to deliver his message to Daniel. This another battle spoken of before the end time event spoken of in Revelations.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But Satan is just a scapegoat. All the things that people do wrong in the world, are blamed on Satan. God would never kill Satan, cause what would we do without a scapegoat.

Speak for yourself. You're mixing the people willing to blame all of their woes, mistakes, and crimes on Satan with people that take responsibility for their own actions. Don't attempt lumping people together.
Originally posted by Surtur
I think it is a case of..Satan was a dick, but he isn't responsible for all the evil. But this just means God had one of his kids basically just to use him/it as a scapegoat for all the bad stuff people do.

Still though, wiping the dude out would still probably of benefited humanity.

This is wrong. God did not make Satan to do the things the he did. Satan like all of the rest of Gods creations was given a will of his own. This means that he chose to do the crap that he did. He would do it again if given the choice. Our will is what forms our opinions and goes the distance of shaping our lives.

Listen I can choose to be on tomorrow nights news for breaking the law in very big ways, and that would be my choice. I would have to take responsibility for those actions that I willfully chose. Even choosing not to commit crime is an action of choice. Once I do anything, I can't turn around and say that it was God's fault for my choices. I mean are you kidding? Our will is what actually shapes our individual realities. So yes we are all somewhat reality warpers, as funny as that may seem, it's pretty much the truth. Satan chose, and still chooses to do whatever he is willing to do.

Originally posted by Surtur
I think it is a case of..Satan was a dick, but he isn't responsible for all the evil. But this just means God had one of his kids basically just to use him/it as a scapegoat for all the bad stuff people do.

Still though, wiping the dude out would still probably of benefited humanity.

God doesn't care about humanity. He's a self-centered child, that wants only for himself.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God doesn't care about humanity. He's a self-centered child, that wants only for himself.

That isn't what is written in the bible. It actually says that God loves the people in the world, and desires for everyone to make it to his kingdom, so that they would live in love and peace, and many other amazing things. God is going to destroy Death. You may be confusing the big picture, with the here and now.

Originally posted by Stoic
That isn't what is written in the bible. It actually says that God loves the people in the world, and desires for everyone to make it to his kingdom, so that they would live in love and peace, and many other amazing things. God is going to destroy Death. You may be confusing the big picture, with the here and now.

I'm not confused at all. What I said is what I believe about the mythology of Christianity.

The god in the bible is a jealous god. Jealousy is just another form of selfishness.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm not confused at all. What I said is what I believe about the mythology of Christianity.

The god in the bible is a jealous god. Jealousy is just another form of selfishness.

No it isn't. Jealousy has more than one side to it, and it is far too complex to sum up in one sentence. The nature of jealousy is to show a form of love. Such as; missing someone, can lead a person to feel jealousy. or, when a spouse says that they will not remain in the relationship if any other is placed above them in the role of spouse. Jealousy in that case was applied to a certain dichotomy, and is clearly meant to be used as a means of establishing the way that God envisioned, or desired relationships between him and mankind to be.

Originally posted by Stoic
And what is wrong with being selfish? Selfishness often protects people from negligible events. I'm selfish over my wife, and refuse to allow another man to sleep with her. She feels the same way about me sleeping around on her. This protects us, because it keeps things like herpes, AIDs, and other sexual diseases from hurting us. All the same, your accusation has no place here. God is clear why he is jealous, and I see nothing wrong with it being used in the context of how it is being used in the bible.

I'm glad you agree that the god of the bible is selfish.

Originally posted by Stoic
Speak for yourself. You're mixing the people willing to blame all of their woes, mistakes, and crimes on Satan with people that take responsibility for their own actions. Don't attempt lumping people together.


This is wrong. God did not make Satan to do the things the he did. Satan like all of the rest of Gods creations was given a will of his own. This means that he chose to do the crap that he did. He would do it again if given the choice. Our will is what forms our opinions and goes the distance of shaping our lives.

Listen I can choose to be on tomorrow nights news for breaking the law in very big ways, and that would be my choice. I would have to take responsibility for those actions that I willfully chose. Even choosing not to commit crime is an action of choice. Once I do anything, I can't turn around and say that it was God's fault for my choices. I mean are you kidding? Our will is what actually shapes our individual realities. So yes we are all somewhat reality warpers, as funny as that may seem, it's pretty much the truth. Satan chose, and still chooses to do whatever he is willing to do.

But how is it a true choice if God already knows everything that will happen?

Some interpretations see the whole knowledge/sin thing as metaphorical: "knowledge" = self-awareness. "Sin" = we are no longer unconscious and "one" with nature. It's a statement about the psychological development of humanity, not unlike what a human individual goes through. Normal development takes us from unconscious neonate, embedded in a world of sensation and emotion, to self-conscious ego, capable of symbolic thought and abstraction. With the latter also comes being able to invest ourselves in our thoughts/symbols, our memories and plans, rather than living in the here-n-now.

I'm guessing this mystical stuff was more/less watered down for public consumption, and somewhere along the way, like for political purposes, the wording/interpretation of the Eden story changed from spiritual-psychological to spiritual-authoritative.

Originally posted by Surtur
But how is it a true choice if God already knows everything that will happen?


Our will is what allows us to choose one path over the other through knowledge.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm glad you agree that the god of the bible is selfish.

And? How does that make God bad?

Originally posted by Stoic
And? How does that make God bad?

I said the god of the bible was self centered. I never said anything about God.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I said the god of the bible was self centered. I never said anything about God.

your way of thinking is impertinent... God is God... He is the creator of all things... then He sees His creatures are worshipping other gods, wouldn't it be logical/practical for Him to be jealous?

but you engaging a discussion about "God" when you yourself procalim that you don't in Him, makes me think you're doing this out of mockery of the God in the Bible/Christianity...

in recent scientific studies, it states that human brains are hard-wired for religion/God...