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KK

vs.

1. Gamora, Stick, Master Izo, Mantis, Moondragon, O-Sensei.

2. All of the above + Batman, Captain America, Daredevil, Constantine Drakon, Shang-Chi, Batgirl, Elektra.

3. All of the above + Richard Dragon, Ogun, Dick Grayson, Shingen, Deadpool, Taskmaster, Lady Shiva, Bronze Tiger.


I just want to see KK's limits.

I see a lot of street levelers on your list(or people not far above that). KK is far above street level. These guys will be canon fodder at best. It truly seems like the only people who are possible threats are on the first team.

I can't speak enough about the feats of everyone on that team and how well Val will do because I think Moondragon has telepathy.

Val at his best fights Kryptonian level opponents.

So, without exotic powers usage (like tp), KK would slaughter them all?

Does Val get the flight ring?

Sure, if you think he needs it.

It's standard equipment. If Val isn't holding back, i can see him beating a lot of these guys at once. He might not come out alive in the end, though.

Originally posted by Zack M
It's standard equipment. If Val isn't holding back, i can see him beating a lot of these guys at once. He might not come out alive in the end, though.

I don't know, in pure h2h the only character who comes close is Mantis.

Gamora doesn't have the speed, and no one else is really on even her level.

Then again, Karate Kids have died so many times, they're almost like LOSH's version of Kenny. (Including Karate Kid 2 and the Batch SW6 Val.)

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
So, without exotic powers usage (like tp), KK would slaughter them all?

Not unless they have some seriously impressive feats. I've never seen stuff mentioned for someone like Gamora on the level of Val. But that doesn't mean there are not feats out there like that.

I don't even know who the guy is that taught Val his space karate, but whoever he is...he must be the most powerful being in the universe. He can dodge attacks after they hit him because karate.

I think Izo can go intangible.

He hasn't done much but he scares some pretty tough dudes

Batman fought KK (different versions?) twice and did good...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Batman fought KK (different versions?) twice and did good... Chalk it up to batPIS. Batman lasting against Val for more than even a nanosecond is a ridiculous notion. Also, one of those versions was both amnesiac and dying

I can chalk it up to BatPIS, sure. It only makes it fair to chalk up all of KK's showings to KaratePIS, though.

Number 3 + Wolverine and Iron Fist and KK still wins in h2h. I even think the more come at him the easier it will be for him to win, using their attacks against others.

I should've added SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta, it seems.

Stops at 2.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I can chalk it up to BatPIS, sure. It only makes it fair to chalk up all of KK's showings to KaratePIS, though.

It's fair to chalk up every showing he ever had except his Batman showings as PIS?

I'm down with that if we can call Spidey a herald killer, then. Firelords the norm for him, Venom or Hulk troubles is the PIS.

Seriously though, Batman's second fight was against Trident, a brainwashed Val. Think when Batman fought Superman under the control of Ivy, and managed to keep ahead of him, and even belted him a good uppercut.

Bump.

Stops at 1... hard. Gamora, Mantis, or Moondragon could all make a match of it h2h individually(yeah that's right, I said it) even if they were on the loosing end, as a group they'd absolutely kick his ass.

Finally someone sensible. Thanks, darthgoober

Originally posted by darthgoober
Stops at 1... hard. Gamora, Mantis, or Moondragon could all make a match of it h2h individually(yeah that's right, I said it) even if they were on the loosing end, as a group they'd absolutely kick his ass.

Agreed

Originally posted by darthgoober
Stops at 1... hard. Gamora, Mantis, or Moondragon could all make a match of it h2h individually(yeah that's right, I said it) even if they were on the loosing end, as a group they'd absolutely kick his ass.

I think as a group they can take him, but individually, the only female on that list that can give him troubles i Mantis. Gamora and MD are overrated, IMO.

Originally posted by Zack M
I think as a group they can take him, but individually, the only female on that list that can give him troubles i Mantis. Gamora and MD are overrated, IMO.

Moondragon has beaten Mantis. ^^

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Moondragon has beaten Mantis. ^^

I'm talking about cosmic Mantis. When did MD beat cosmic Mantis?

Originally posted by Zack M
I'm talking about cosmic Mantis. When did MD beat cosmic Mantis?

The Celestial Madonna ?

Yes. What Martial art feats does MD have?

Originally posted by Zack M
Yes. What Martial art feats does MD have?

Wait.

Since when Mantis lost what she gained in the Celestial Madonna arc ?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Stops at 1... hard. Gamora, Mantis, or Moondragon could all make a match of it h2h individually(yeah that's right, I said it) even if they were on the loosing end, as a group they'd absolutely kick his ass.

Originally posted by Zack M
I think as a group they can take him, but individually, the only female on that list that can give him troubles i Mantis. Gamora and MD are overrated, IMO.
Gamora's got superhuman attributes, unbreakable bones, and a healing factor on him. He miht be able to beat her due to the plot device nature of his karate, but he'd have to work at it.

Moondraon underwent the exact same training Mantis did and proved her equal/supperior h2h. Her skills just aren't showcased as much because writers focus on her telepathy/telekinesis.

Originally posted by Zack M
I'm talking about cosmic Mantis. When did MD beat cosmic Mantis?

She didn't gain any skills as the Celestial Madonna, she gained things like the ability to fly and shoot energy blasts. And I'm all but positive that she lost lost to Moondragon after she had those powers.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Gamora's got superhuman attributes, unbreakable bones, and a healing factor on him. He miht be able to beat her due to the plot device nature of his karate, but he'd have to work at it.

Moondraon underwent the exact same training Mantis did and proved her equal/supperior h2h. Her skills just aren't showcased as much because writers focus on her telepathy/telekinesis.



She didn't gain any skills as the Celestial Madonna, she gained things like the ability to fly and shoot energy blasts. And I'm all but positive that she lost lost to Moondragon after she had those powers.

All those don't matter when you have someone who can find weak points in objects (Interon, DC's Adimantium). Val is VASTLY more skilled than those three women.

Originally posted by Zack M
All those don't matter when you have someone who can find weak points in objects (Interon, DC's Adimantium). Val is VASTLY more skilled than those three women.

Proof that he's VASTLY more skilled? I mean if you're counting off the wall feats that aren't actually h2h techniques as a reflection of "skill" then stuff like telepathy and such would also qualify since Moondragon and Mantis got it through their training. It's like the difference between Iron Fist and Shang Chi. Iron Fist is better at chi related stuff and can do things that Shang can't, but Shang is more skilled at h2h. KK has more off the walls techniques at his disposal, but that doesn't mean he's actually vastly more skilled h2h.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Proof that he's VASTLY more skilled? I mean if you're counting off the wall feats that aren't actually h2h techniques as a reflection of "skill" then stuff like telepathy and such would also qualify since Moondragon and Mantis got it through their training.

He's mastered all the known MA's in the universe. Had the upper hand fighting Batman (A well ESTABLISHED MA, and one of the BEST in comics), even taking his utility belt from him, while he just woke up from a coma. He can hide his thoughts (Did from Saturn Girl, she admitted it was hard for her to probe his mind), and she is a better TP than either Mantis or Moondragon.

Val is able to SPAR with Kryptonians AND Daxamites at SUPER SPEED. Show me feats that are equal with the two women.

Originally posted by Zack M
He's mastered all the known MA's in the universe. Had the upper hand fighting Batman (A well ESTABLISHED MA, and one of the BEST in comics), even taking his utility belt from him, while he just woke up from a coma. He can hide his thoughts (Did from Saturn Girl, she admitted it was hard for her to probe his mind), and she is a better TP than either Mantis or Moondragon.

Val is able to SPAR with Kryptonians AND Daxamites at SUPER SPEED. Show me feats that are equal with the two women.

Gamora has mastered 83.4% of the MAs in the known universe. And given that after a certain point things become a bit redundant I'd say that the lip service provided in regards to KKs skill doesn't really qualify as a VAST difference in skill. And there's a big difference between being unable to probe someone's mind and being able to mindblast them.

Mantis has one shotted Thor and tripped the Runner moving at speed and knocked around the Obliterator. Gamora has given a fight to B&T Thor(seriously, she seemed to be doing better against him than anyone else), beaten a Thanos clone, and knocked around guys like Maxam and Drax multiple times BEFORE her upgrade in Annihilation.

As I said, I can see the plot device nature of his space karate giving him the win against any one of them(though I'm unconvinced it would be definite), but any of the three could damn sure make him work for it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Gamora has mastered 83.4% of the MAs in the known universe. And given that after a certain point things become a bit redundant I'd say that the lip service provided in regards to KKs skill doesn't really qualify as a VAST difference in skill. And there's a big difference between being unable to probe someone's mind and being able to mindblast them.

Mantis has one shotted Thor and tripped the Runner moving at speed and knocked around the Obliterator. Gamora has given a fight to B&T Thor, beaten a Thanos clone, and knocked around guys like Maxam and Drax multiple times BEFORE her upgrade in Annihilation.

As I said, I can see the plot device nature of his space karate giving him the win, but any of the three could damn sure make him work for it.

I kind of agree on the redundancy of it all, but at least Val straight up had the upper hand on one of the best MA's in comics, period. IIRC, Wolverine got the upper hand on Gamorra. And knowing more MA's, especially alien MA can give you an advantage. Just look at Batman One Million and the alien MA where he learned to develop a mental attack to capture Batman's soul. Some can be highly useful and give someone the complete upper hand over someone. Has Gamorra or Mantis beaten someone who is high on the MA pole? Val has, and that is how I'm gauging skill.

Val has similar speed feats. He eventually grabbed Barry Allen's future relatives (cousins?).

Originally posted by Zack M
I kind of agree on the redundancy of it all, but at least Val straight up had the upper hand on one of the best MA's in comics, period. IIRC, Wolverine got the upper hand on Gamorra. And knowing more MA's, especially alien MA can give you an advantage. Just look at Batman One Million and the alien MA where he learned to develop a mental attack to capture Batman's soul. Some can be highly useful and give someone the complete upper hand over someone. Has Gamorra or Mantis beaten someone who is high on the MA pole? Val has, and that is how I'm gauging skill.

Val has similar speed feats. He eventually grabbed Barry Allen's future relatives (cousins?).

Wolverine got the upper hand on Gamora because she literally turned her head and stopped focusing on him due to the Hulk and Drax crashing into the ground a few feat away... EVERYONE is vulnerable to getting tagged with a sucker shot. And Moondragon has beaten Cap. Mind you, Cap's super soldier serum was screwing up but since MD isn't super human physically all that really would have done is make it closer to a "equal bodies" match. And yes, any of those alien martial arts COULD be helpful, my point is that such lip service isn't enough to imply a VAST difference in skill. I have no problem saying that he's more skilled, it's the idea that he'd just outright kick her ass that I'm taking issue with.

I know he has similar feats. Hell I acknowledge the fact that he prob has more numerous and better feats. But there's a difference between being better and being so much better that your opponent can't even make a fight of it when they also have abilities that you lack which all 3 of these ladies do.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wolverine got the upper hand on Gamora because she literally turned her head and stopped focusing on him due to the Hulk and Drax crashing into the ground a few feat away... EVERYONE is vulnerable to getting tagged with a sucker shot. And Moondragon has beaten Cap. Mind you, Cap's super soldier serum was screwing up but since MD isn't super human physically all that really would have done is make it closer to a "equal bodies" match. And yes, any of those alien martial arts COULD be helpful, my point is that such lip service isn't enough to imply a VAST difference in skill. I have no problem saying that he's more skilled, it's the idea that he'd just outright kick her ass that I'm taking issue with.

I know he has similar feats. Hell I acknowledge the fact that he prob has more numerous and better feats. But there's a difference between being better and being so much better that your opponent can't even make a fight of it when they also have abilities that you lack.

Not Val. Pre-Zero Emerald Empress (One of the deadliest assassins in the universe) was trying to ambush Val, but Val heard her heart beat several yards away or whatever.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4101287-kk+v+emerald+empress+.jpg

Either way, I'd say Val is more skilled.

Originally posted by Zack M
Not Val. Pre-Zero Emerald Empress (One of the deadliest assassins in the universe) was trying to ambush Val, but Val heard her heart beat several yards away or whatever.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4101287-kk+v+emerald+empress+.jpg

Either way, I'd say Val is more skilled.
That's not a comparable scene. Gamora KNEW Wolverine was there, he literally took advantage of a situation where he was already in striking distance and she turned her head away from him.

And I'd say Val is more skilled too, but not so much more skilled that any of the 3 couldn't give him one Hell of a fight h2h. By the same token, Iron Fist would really make Shang win in a fight without Chi Manipulation before he went down.

Then there is this PIS feat. Dodging Flash.

https://i.imgur.com/kFzqoJd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/crzzUvS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WeygRsO.jpg

Originally posted by Zack M
Then there is this PIS feat. Dodging Flash.

https://i.imgur.com/kFzqoJd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/crzzUvS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WeygRsO.jpg
And again... reacting to Runner. As I said, KK's more skilled, but not in a whole different league. This is a 7th degree blackbelt vs 3 5th or 6th degree blackbelts, not a 7th degree blackbelt vs 3 orange belts.

Runner isn't as fast as Wally, though. Until I see Gamora or Mantis fight/defeat established MA's, I'll say KK takes a comfortable majority from any of the three.

Originally posted by Zack M
Runner isn't as fast as Wally, though. Until I see Gamora or Mantis fight/defeat established MA's, I'll say KK takes a comfortable majority from any of the three.
And you're free to say that, a 7th degree blackbelt may take a comfortable majority against a 5th degree blackbelt... but that doesn't mean he won't have to work for the win and watch his ass.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And you're free to say that, a 7th degree blackbelt may take a comfortable majority against a 5th degree blackbelt... but that doesn't mean he won't have to work for the win and watch his ass.

I don't think Val has to work all that hard. Pre-Crisis Val, that is. If you limit his attributes, then maybe. But he'd just destroy the three women, Karnak style. I'm assuming if Val is out for the kill. A serious Val can wrestle with Pre-Crisis Kryptonians and trained from early years to take down meta humans. That is one of the reasons he was accepted in the Legion of Super-Heroes.

Karnak style? Remind me again how Karnak's match with Mantis went...

The superhumans he deals with aren't close to his skill level, these three are and have stuff he lacks on top of that skill.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Karnak style? Remind me again how Karnak's match with Mantis went...

The superhumans he deals with aren't close to his skill level, these three are and have stuff he lacks on top of that skill.

I mean breaking bones and whatnot. Val can sense weak points in any object. He broke Inereton, IIRC and found a weakness in a powerful force field. I doubt Gamora or Mantis can withstand serious blows from Val, if he was serious.

Originally posted by Zack M
I mean breaking bones and whatnot. Val can sense weak points in any object. He broke Inereton, IIRC and found a weakness in a powerful force field. I doubt Gamora or Mantis can withstand serious blows from Val, if he was serious.
You're assuming Gamora's bones have a weak point even though it's never been demonstrated. You can't make that assumption just because some piece of inertron did. What's more, I doubt that piece of inertron was actively trying to block/defend against his attack to the weak point in it's structural integrity.

Anyway I gotta crash, but we can certainly pick this up tomorrow.

Gamora? The girl who has been stalemated by Storm and Nightcrawler in sword fights and later bucky stalemated her straight up?

Val is going to beat the shit out of her.

Just curious,how does everyone think KK would do against Midnighter?