Mr. Fantastic Vs Captain America

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riv6672
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/84077/1891630-reed_586_023.jpg
Reed Richards. Steve Rogers. Classic non amped non weakened versions.
No prep. No BFR.
Midtown Manhattan. One city block start distance.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111207460/4519699-6088907612-43813.jpg

Sin I AM
Reed "should" stomp

StiltmanFTW
Cap destroys him.

Reed can't even handle DD in hth. If Sin appeared in a comic, she would one-shot Richards with a single slap or something.

Blue Area Vet
Reed smothers. There is nothing Cap can do to Reed.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Reed smothers. There is nothing Cap can do to Reed.
Read some comics, Brown Area Vet.

carver9
Reed have some lows but his average is beastly. Giving this to him almost every single time.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by carver9
his average is beastly.

His is not average, it's micro.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Read some comics, Brown Area Vet.

I do in part because unlike you, I can read. My handle is Blue Area Vet.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
His is not average, it's micro.

WTF???? Wow, Carver went over your head without trying.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
I do in part because unlike you, I can read. My handle is Blue Area Vet.

Brown Area Vet? That's what I said.

And no, you don't.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
WTF???? Wow, Carver went over your head without trying.

Not really.

DarkSaint85
What non prep h2h combat feats does Reed have? Spidey has given him fangasms before he smacked him, and DD has given him trouble.

So if those aren't his averages, he must have some pretty damn good showings to even it out, right?

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What non prep h2h combat feats does Reed have? Spidey has given him fangasms before he smacked him, and DD has given him trouble.

So if those aren't his averages, he must have some pretty damn good showings to even it out, right?

Wolverine kicked his face bloody, too...

leonidas
yeah, cap would demolish him.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Wolverine kicked his face bloody, too...

So you believe in CIS, great. By the way, CIS is an abbreviation. Look up abbreviation.

StiltmanFTW
Look up "sock" and "banned" smile

DarkSaint85
Lol. Just had a look at BAVs post.

Yes. We all believe in CIS. Look it up yourself. Its a forum rule. Lol.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol. Just had a look at BAVs post.

Yes. We all believe in CIS. Look it up yourself. Its a forum rule. Lol.

That's what you get for dipping in other people's business. I wasn't talking to you, I was talking about the poster who doesn't know the difference between Brown and Blue.

leonidas
seriously, one shield throw to his head and reed is out for the duration. can reed win some? sure, but the heavy majority goes to cap for sure imo.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Look up "sock" and "banned" smile

Why, what am I doing to see, your mug shot?

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by leonidas
seriously, one shield throw to his head and reed is out for the duration. can reed win some? sure, but the heavy majority goes to cap for sure imo.

Are we talking about the same Reed that can withstand being strength hundreds of feet by the Hulk?

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol. Just had a look at BAVs post.

Yes. We all believe in CIS. Look it up yourself. Its a forum rule. Lol.

Yes, a rule that even got expanded eventually (CIP).

DarkSaint85
So what none prep fighting feats does Reed have?

leonidas
well, he had a decent showing vs hulk but lost. he THINK he's beaten doom somehow, but can't recall all the details. sue has kicked his arse and ben has ko'd him. given the length of his history, he really doesn't engage in straight 1on1 battles very often.... i only know because i researched him not TOO long ago... i'm sure i'm missing a few, but i distinctly recall being underwhelmed by his combat history and feats.

StiltmanFTW
The only solid Reed feat I can think about, was one of his fights against the Sub-Mariner. It was high-end, though.

Blue Area Vet
Cap could never put Reed down. He has nothing but concussive force and not high end at that. I think the Hulk hits a little harder.

StiltmanFTW
Reed got destroyed by the Hulk in mere panels...

DarkSaint85
So it seems, to take am average, the Namor/Hulk fights are high end outliers.

The DD/Spidey/Wolverine fights are on the other end.

With losses in his highs....

So on average , he loses. Relying solely on his fight with Hulk - which he lost - sounds like relying on PIS. After all, Spidey has taken on Firelord. BP has taken on Surfer.

The Nuul
Wait... how is Cap going to physically hurt Reed?

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So it seems, to take am average, the Namor/Hulk fights are high end outliers.

The DD/Spidey/Wolverine fights are on the other end.

With losses in his highs....

So on average , he loses. Relying solely on his fight with Hulk - which he lost - sounds like relying on PIS. After all, Spidey has taken on Firelord. BP has taken on Surfer.

Pretty sure Cap has better showings vs. Namor and Banner, btw.

People keep forgetting that Reed is not even close to Plastic Man levels.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by The Nuul
Wait... how is Cap going to physically hurt Reed?

The same way it always happens. Just punch the nerd in the face.

DarkSaint85
Same way Spidey, Wolverine, Daredevil et al have.

Logically, Reed stomps. But he's been affected so many times before, by people in Caps tier, for it to be discounted.

That's why this site exists, right. Otherwise we'd just use Marvels' power scales to determine fights.

The Nuul
I was thinking of Plastic Man, got them mixed up. Isn't one of these stretchy guys invulnerable to physical harm?

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by The Nuul
Wait... how is Cap going to physically hurt Reed?

Same thing I said. I wondered if we are somehow talking about a different Reed.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by The Nuul
I was thinking of Plastic Man, got them mixed up. Isn't one of these stretchy guys invulnerable to physical harm?

You're thinking of the superior DC original, who is more powerful.

Reed gets hurt by bullets:
http://www.zonanegativa.com/2007/1358.jpg

zopzop
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You're thinking of the superior DC original, who is more powerful.

Reed gets hurt by bullets:
http://www.zonanegativa.com/2007/1358.jpg
Context? Because if those are 'normal' bullets, they > Wolverine's claws :
http://s29.postimg.org/e3kx4y6f7/4468609_4077904_wolverine_vol_3_22_page_17.jpg

It happened again in FF 374, Wolverine could not cut Reed at all.
http://s24.postimg.org/a94uv77c1/ff5.jpg

Here's Reed taking massive blunt force attacks and withstanding it :
http://s10.postimg.org/vl8301epx/fight0156_c.jpg
Cyke and Sue were turned into Hounds by Ahab and they were bloodlusted trying to kill their friends. Reed took Cykes blasts and lived.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by zopzop
Context? Because if those are 'normal' bullets, they > Wolverine's claws :
http://s29.postimg.org/e3kx4y6f7/4468609_4077904_wolverine_vol_3_22_page_17.jpg

It happened again in FF 374, Wolverine could not cut Reed at all.

Here's Reed taking massive blunt force attacks and withstanding it :
http://s10.postimg.org/vl8301epx/fight0156_c.jpg
Cyke and Sue were turned into Hounds by Ahab and they were bloodlusted trying to kill their friends. Reed took Cykes blasts and lived.

Never said if they were special bullets or not. Tasky was not shown prepping.

But Spidey had no special feet:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a6/32/2d/a6322d492d7f5d6e49f30ec98afb60d2.jpg

StiltmanFTW
Always thought Tasky hit him with some kind of energy beam.

Piercing durability-wise, Richards is great. He just sucks when it comes to blunt force.

@DS No special feet and no special fists, either. He bloodies Reed's nerd face later in the very same event.

zopzop
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never said if they were special bullets or not. Tasky was not shown prepping.

But Spidey had no special feet:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a6/32/2d/a6322d492d7f5d6e49f30ec98afb60d2.jpg
Here he is again resisting Wolverine's claws :
http://s24.postimg.org/a94uv77c1/ff5.jpg

If he can resist a bloodlusted Cyclops' optic blasts and Wolverine's claws, the bullets and Spider kick are PIS.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by zopzop
Here he is again resisting Wolverine's claws :
http://s24.postimg.org/a94uv77c1/ff5.jpg

If he can resist a bloodlusted Cyclops' optic blasts and Wolverine's claws, the bullets and Spider kick are PIS.

There's also his Daredevil fight (Stilt may have the scans?)

Namor was beating him up until Torch/IW stepped in (high end of course, but shows physical concussive blows still affect him).

Wolverine has also apparently bloodied Reed's face.

Then there's all the times he HAS been KOed. So physical force - against all logic- affects him.

Maybe it's a mental thing? Who knows. But he's not immune to punches.

StiltmanFTW
http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/22814285_pwnt.jpg

StiltmanFTW
ACKKK!!!!!!!

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/2872/infinitywars234ow6.th.jpg

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by zopzop
Here he is again resisting Wolverine's claws :
http://s24.postimg.org/a94uv77c1/ff5.jpg

If he can resist a bloodlusted Cyclops' optic blasts and Wolverine's claws, the bullets and Spider kick are PIS.

Thank you.

zopzop
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You're thinking of the superior DC original, who is more powerful.

Reed gets hurt by bullets:
http://www.zonanegativa.com/2007/1358.jpg
More proof that this bullet scene is absolute PIS, Reed was bulletproof since back in the day :
http://s17.postimg.org/8kjc7ux9n/9s_VVz.jpg

DarkSaint85
So why are your showings legit, but Daredevil, Taskmaster, Spiderman et al PIS?

Once, maybe. But its happened a fair few times, over the entire history....I mean, when WW is talked about having light speed reactions, people laugh and point out the times she's been tagged.

How many times before its not PIS?

zopzop
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So why are your showings legit, but Daredevil, Taskmaster, Spiderman et al PIS?
Because writers are idiots. If he's survived being riddled by bullets back when he was first learning to use his powers, why would he all of a sudden lose this ability after YEARS of training? Does that make sense?


He's survived being stretched to his limit by Hulk, he's been hit with a bloodlusted Cyclops' optic blast, he's absorbed grenade and missile strikes (need to find the scans), etc.. How the phuck does it make sense that a stick to the throat or a punch from Spiderman is gonna KO him?

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
ACKKK!!!!!!!

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/2872/infinitywars234ow6.th.jpg

What does this supposedly supposedly prove, that he can be hit?

Stoic
I have to go with Steve on this. He has the moves, skill, and strength to be a serious threat to Reed. However, if Reed ensnares him, his chances of escape would be pretty low.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by zopzop

Because writers are idiots. If he's survived being riddled by bullets back when he was first learning to use his powers, why would he all of a sudden lose this ability after YEARS of training? Does that make sense?


He's survived being stretched to his limit by Hulk, he's been hit with a bloodlusted Cyclops' optic blast, he's absorbed grenade and missile strikes (need to find the scans), etc.. How the phuck does it make sense that a stick to the throat or a punch from Spiderman is gonna KO him?

He's also been KOed numerous times by explosions. On average, across all his showings, I'd wager (having not read every Reed appearance, obv) that his average is that he is affected by physical force.

Namor, Ben, Hulk, Wolverine, Daredevil, Spiderman, Taskmaster...

I mean, the events all happened, in canon comics. Like I said, logically, it makes no sense - but they are what they are. Beyonders getting killed by heralds? Why not. Phoenix being taken out by dragons? Sure. We just have to suck it up. Otherwise we might as well just use handbooks and power ratings.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by Stoic
I have to go with Steve on this. He has the moves, skill, and strength to be a serious threat to Reed. However, if Reed ensnares him, his chances of escape would be pretty low.

He would smother him and kill him. The also, the shield would be useless.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He's also been KOed numerous times by explosions. On average, across all his showings, I'd wager (having not read every Reed appearance, obv) that his average is that he is affected by physical force.

Namor, Ben, Hulk, Wolverine, Daredevil, Spiderman, Taskmaster...

I mean, the events all happened, in canon comics. Like I said, logically, it makes no sense - but they are what they are. Beyonders getting killed by heralds? Why not. Phoenix being taken out by dragons? Sure. We just have to suck it up. Otherwise we might as well just use handbooks and power ratings.

But the match is with Steve, and guy who doesn't have explosive, EP, Psi, any of that good stuff. The match up favors Reed. All the skill in the world could not prevent Reed from simply smothering him.

zopzop
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He's also been KOed numerous times by explosions. On average, across all his showings, I'd wager (having not read every Reed appearance, obv) that his average is that he is affected by physical force.

Namor, Ben, Hulk, Wolverine, Daredevil, Spiderman, Taskmaster...

Look at that lineup you listed : Namor (CL100), Ben (Cl100), Hulk (Cl100), then you have Wolverine (peak human), Daredevil (peak human), Spiderman (Cl20). You don't see the PIS? You don't see the difference between eating a punch from a CL100 being vs a low level meta?
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
But the match is with Steve, and guy who doesn't have explosive, EP, Psi, any of that good stuff. The match up favors Reed. All the skill in the world could not prevent Reed from simply smothering him.
Don't be so sure. With PIS/CIS involved Americaforce > all!

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by zopzop
Look at that lineup you listed : Namor (CL100), Ben (Cl100), Hulk (Cl100), then you have Wolverine (peak human), Daredevil (peak human), Spiderman (Cl20). You don't see the PIS? You don't see the difference between eating a punch from a CL100 being vs a low level meta?

Don't be so sure. With PIS/CIS involved Americaforce > all!

I don't know how anyone can say this is anything but PIS/CIS. We don't vote on that basis. That's why the terms exist. The bottom line is people can't wrpa their heads around a character like Reed who is a nerd and no martial arts expertise beating a fighting machine like Steve, but Reed doesn't have to be a great fighter to beat him.

DarkSaint85
He didn't eat the punches, though. He was KOed. Yes, they are Class 100s....but you can't say that they needed their full strength to KO him.

Just because a 50 cal bullet kills me, doesn't mean I can tank a .22.

carver9
Reed body has tanked blows from Wolverine claws and Hulk punches. If Reed fights half as smart, he stomps this.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by carver9
Reed body has tanked blows from Wolverine claws and Hulk punches. If Reed fights half as smart, he stomps this.

Thank you.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by zopzop
More proof that this bullet scene is absolute PIS, Reed was bulletproof since back in the day :
http://s17.postimg.org/8kjc7ux9n/9s_VVz.jpg

Bullets don't leave smoke. Tasky shoot him with a lazer pistol or something stick out tongue

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
What does this supposedly supposedly prove, that he can be hit?

That he can be hurt, that his vital spots are vulnerable and it's not even the first time DD fought him.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by carver9
Reed body has tanked blows from Wolverine claws and Hulk punches. If Reed fights half as smart, he stomps this.

He never tanked Banner's attacks.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
That he can be hurt, that his vital spots are vulnerable and it's not even the first time DD fought him.

Hurt as in feel some pain? Fine. Still unbelieveably durable? Yeah.

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Same way Spidey, Wolverine, Daredevil et al have.

Logically, Reed stomps. But he's been affected so many times before, by people in Caps tier, for it to be discounted.

That's why this site exists, right. Otherwise we'd just use Marvels' power scales to determine fights.
Thanks for posting that. People lose sight sometimes.
And appreciate everyone's input.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Hurt as in feel some pain? Fine. Still unbelieveably durable? Yeah.

Getting bruised, bleeding, choking, having trouble with streets...

Brown area indeed.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by zopzop
Look at that lineup you listed : Namor (CL100), Ben (Cl100), Hulk (Cl100), then you have Wolverine (peak human), Daredevil (peak human), Spiderman (Cl20). You don't see the PIS? You don't see the difference between eating a punch from a CL100 being vs a low level meta?

If you consider Thing cl100, then you should be fair and mention that Wolverine is a low meta. Because he is, a genuine one. Always been described that way, sans the single Spiderman backup material.

riv6672
Wolverine is NOT street. no

StiltmanFTW
http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/23594150_rr1.jpg http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/23594151_rr2.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/9vijis.jpg

celeyhyga17
How the phukk can a rubber dude even get bruised?

Smh...

riv6672
Same way exposure to radiation gives you powers not cancer.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by riv6672
Same way exposure to radiation gives you powers not cancer.
stick out tongue

riv6672
wink

Living.Tribunal
without prep. time its a tough fight for Reed..but at last Reed will kick Cap's ass.

riv6672
Dont agree, but, thats just me.
Reed doesnt have a bad power set, i dont think he uses it as effectively in combat as he could, though.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by riv6672
Dont agree, but, thats just me.
Reed doesnt have a bad power set, i dont think he uses it as effectively in combat as he could, though.
Yes, fighting is just not his thing.

It's similar with Pym and Beast.

riv6672
Well, we know both Reed and Hank are both masters of the Pimp Slap...angel

StiltmanFTW
laughing out loud

Kid Kurdy
Reed can grab CA from a distance and throw him away. Or smash him a few times against a concrete wall. Or whatever.

People seem to forget Reed has actual super strength.

riv6672
Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
...People seem to forget Reed has actual super strength.
Not as often as Reed does.

Surtur
Could of sworn Reed has taken hits from people like Thing, though I don't doubt he's been KO'ed by less as well.

Genii96
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You're thinking of the superior DC original, who is more powerful.

Reed gets hurt by bullets:
http://www.zonanegativa.com/2007/1358.jpg

You can clearly see some sort of yellow light beam coming out from that gun,that was no normal bullet.


OT: spiderman didn't KO reed with that kick,he just kicked him...reed was fine,and was able to then throw himself into that blast meant for sue that KO'd him

Cap just has punches and shield throw...reed's body makes that kinda useless.

Reed should win this

Mindship
So, basically, perusing this thread, Reed has high/low/inconsistent showings like pretty much every other superhero.

As such, I'd say if Cap catches Reed by surprise, fight ends fast, even with a single, red-gloved punch. But, if Reed is on his guard and prepared for blunt-force impact, I don't see how Cap could hurt him. Reed wins, if not as quickly ... unless, perhaps, they are in an environment Cap can use to his tactical advantage.

Case in point, for both combatants: in his fight with Daredevil (FF#73), Reed was able to lasso him before he could react to what he was sensing (Reed's approaching arm). DD got in some good strikes; Reed even thought-bubbled, "If not for my pliable body -- that would have floored me." Reed then tells DD that he's "thru" handling him with "kid gloves." DD again gets in some good shots (mostly by using stuff laying around Reed's lab, eg, a "power rod" -- I imagine Cap would fight similarly), but eventually, Reed tricks him (feigns a lasso, lands with a punch -- rather tactical himself), and in the end, Reed is in the winning position (DD is all wrapped up with a punch headed for his face) when Sue stops him.

DTM
Personally Id side with Reed to win here. Yes hes had some low-ish showings for his durability, but hes also had some Very High showings, and has managed to tangle (literally) with characters Much stronger than Cap.

riv6672
Originally posted by Mindship
So, basically, perusing this thread, Reed has high/low/inconsistent showings like pretty much every other superhero.

I see it as Reed has fairly consistent low showings, against low metas on down.

StiltmanFTW
Just for lulz.

Reed's fantastic performance against bricks:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/108995/2608658-ff13_thingvsreed.jpg

eaebiakuya
Reed wins.

riv6672
LOL@Stilt scan! laughing out loud

DTM
Im surprised no ones posted the scene from Secret Wars II, where Reed grows to massive height and basically stops all of the heroes (Hulk, Thor among them) from killing the Beyonder baby. Yes hes got some low showings, but sheesh that is one heck of a high one to offset them. smile

riv6672
Maybe because Reed doesnt fight like that in confrontations like this?

Caps Conscience
If reed can be knocked out than Cap can beat him.

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