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Having this little discussion with Bluewater about reading Superman titles vs reading characters like Wonder Woman who don't appear aappears many times as Superman in comics

Nobody will know what you're talking about without context.

Indeed, we ourselves would forget before long.

Since you took the first step by making this thread, however, I'll simply take the next logical step and provide the discussion from that other thread here so we can give this thread a decent starting framework ...


Originally posted by Rao Kal El

It is easier to follow/read the adventures of a hero who appears only once a month on a comic ( maybe twice if he/she is popular) than to follow and read all the feats and adventures of heroes like Superman, Batman or Spiderman.

I mean this heroes appear in 5 or 6 comics a month regularly.
Superman on the 90's IIRC was on 7 comics a month with out counting guest appearances.

Fans of Superman can barely keep track of all his adventures when they read ALL of his publications.




Okay.



Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I believe that reading or being informed on a character that only appears once a month a comic is way easier than to keep track of Superman, batman or spiderman.

With the amount of comics it will take you to follow all the stories of superman, batman or Spiderman in a month you could read thor, silver surfer, hulk, avengers , wonder woman and still have a book to spare.



Okay.


Originally posted by Rao Kal El

We have those guys who read a lot of superman telling us what he might or might no be able to do.



Okay.


Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Then we have the detractors who apparently only read superman scans posted on sites like this one and try to make and argument based on ignorance. (I remember one time I had a person saying that red sun radiation hurts kryptonians imagine his surprise when he found out that kryptonians used to live under a red sun but the things people will say in order to defend their argument of ignorance is amusing)




Okay!

There's really no argument in that keeping track of one to two titles is easier.

In terms of sites like this though, and i've seen it as recently as last week, its a "character A has more feats, he wins. Period." So, quantity over quality?
Characters that have been around longer over newer characters by default?
I leave that to you guys to figure out.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I guess you will agree that following the feats of WW it will be easier than following the feats of Superman or Batman
so "nearly equally" is a tad bit too exaggerated by a rate of 6/2




No.

Because there are several problems with your reasoning.

I'll cover just two for now in the interest of time.
(I'll give more later if time permits and/or you respond to this post.)

The first problem with your reasoning is that you seem to be subscribing to the fallacy that, because Superman has more published adventures than anyone else, he has more feats than anyone else, and THEREFORE, on a forum where feats carry a great deal of weight, Superman should automatically win.

This does not work. I think you would agree that, due to his long history, Superman has more adventures and feats on the printed page than, say, Marvel Comics' Odin.

Would that mean, then, that, if Superman and Odin fought, Superman should win?


Another problem with your line of reasoning is assuming that all of these extra adventures Superman has per month grants Superman feats that are actually USEFUL to a fight discussion. Will Superman thwarting a bank robbery by goading a robber into shooting his chest until he runs out of bullets be useful in determining how well Superman would handle a near-infinite mass punch from a fighting mad Wally West Flash? An enraged World War Hulk? Captain Marvel, after Cap has absorbed the energies of Black Adam to go with his own?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

All I am saying that building a case against a character who only appears once a month is way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month. The character with 7 appearances a month has so many feats that is almost impossible for you to know what he can or can't do, yet detractors often express their opinions as facts as if they knew the character and have read all his/her stories.


Acknowledged.


Still disagree.


Reasons?

One, for whatever reason, people DON'T seem to know much about the non-Superman character they are debating against.
I originally responded, for instance, because I noticed a comment someone made about Superman's blood shattering Diana's weapon, stating this as if Supes could do this at any time against Wonder Woman's standard forum gear.

He can't. The showing they were talking about is a scene in "For Tomorrow". You will discover, if you read the series, or even my post from a few pages back, that the weapon is not Diana's but a witch's named Halcyon. It is, unlike Diana's own standard forum gear, magically sharp, but NOT magically durable. People envisioning Diana's own gear proving ineffective because of what they think they remember in THAT story, need to have another thought coming.

I would have to say, while on that point, whether there is a necessary correlation or not, it really does seem that the more well-read people are concerning Superman, the less well-read they seem to be about other characters, at least as far as battle worthy details like that are concerned.

It would make sense: there are only so many hours in the day FOR free-time reading. If you devote that time almost exclusively to character X, there's not a lot left over for learning about character Y, is there?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

All I am saying that building a case against a character who only appears once a month is way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month. The character with 7 appearances a month has so many feats that is almost impossible for you to know what he can or can't do, yet detractors often express their opinions as facts as if they knew the character and have read all his/her stories.


Disagree for two more reasons.

One is that your words above ("once a month" imply that the primary or most valid way to determine what a character can do, is to examine what they do in their own title, virtually to the exclusion of others. For Wonder Woman, this equates to EXTREME handicapping, namely because nearly ALL her famous and best showings, occur in OTHER titles, not her own.

Note that Wonder Woman stopping mountain-sized rocks, or facing down a team busting opponent like Amazo, or deflecting Darkseid's lethal omega beams, or using her physical strength to help restore Earth to proper orbit is something distinctly alien to her own title. Her own writers, pre-Flashpoint, at least, simply do not give her such feats in the Wonder Woman magazine.

Whatever story they had to tell had no need for such things, or if they did, still weren't provided.
Does that mean Diana is incapable of such then? Or does it simply mean that a researcher has to cast his or her net wider than they might first think?

The second thing, or, perhaps more accurately, part B of reason 2 ...



is that there is only so much material that can be published by different authors with only loose editorship, before "fact" about fictional characters begin to contradict each other.

As Area Vet noted in less than tactful terms, you yourself know quite a bit about Superman, and appear to have one of the largest collections on him on KMC. Doubtless you possess knowledge that the average person, and perhaps even DC's own writers, would consider obscure.

For instance, in a previous discussion in some long ago thread, you told me that Superman has, at least in some periods of the pre-Flashpoint, a mental instability that causes his body to process sunlight LESS efficiently than it might another Kryptonian. In other words, he subconsciously "blocks" his own power, to the point that, even in full sunlight, he can and has proven as "powerless" as an average human. This would occur very noticeably after the Infinite Crisis series, an event that took place long after most of the fights we've been discussing in this thread.

What would that mean in a versus scenario, though?
Have you gained anything by saying "My character is weaker than he could be!" "Just imagine if he WEREN'T sort of mental ..." ?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I know you are not saying this directly but you are implying that is easier to read 500 comics to follow one character and be versed on a single character than to read 3500 comics to do the same?

Because come on, reading through 500 comics is way easier than to read through 3500.

As for the rest, people usually estate opinions even if they are ill informed, but it will be easier for me to inform me on a character that has only 500 comics than on one that has 3500 comics. if I read only 250 of one character that means I know 50% of his history and I am somewhat informed on the character, on the other hand if I only read 250 comics of the character that has 3500 comics I only know 14% about that character.

Knowing 50% of one characters history makes me at least somewhat informed, knowing only 14% of a character history?... Maybe I should inform myself a little bit better before talking about a topic to which I only know 14% of it.

That is my take on it anyway.

It's harder to keep track of someone who appeares x-times a month compared to someone who appeares x-times a year.

It's easier to lowball someone who appears x-times a month.

A character who appears x-time a month will have more problems staying consistent due to differen't writers.

It's way easier to highball a fresh character or a char that appears x-times a year. See Rulk in the beginning.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I know you are not saying this directly but you are implying that is easier to read 500 comics to follow one character and be versed on a single character than to read 3500 comics to do the same?

Because come on, reading through 500 comics is way easier than to read through 3500.




No real disagreement between us to be found in the 2 sentences above ...





Originally posted by Rao Kal El

As for the rest, people usually estate opinions even if they are ill informed, but it will be easier for me to inform me on a character that has only 500 comics than on one that has 3500 comics. if I read only 250 of one character that means I know 50% of his history and I am somewhat informed on the character, on the other hand if I only read 250 comics of the character that has 3500 comics I only know 14% about that character.

Knowing 50% of one characters history makes me at least somewhat informed, knowing only 14% of a character history?... Maybe I should inform myself a little bit better before talking about a topic to which I only know 14% of it.

That is my take on it anyway.


I acknowledge that this is your take on things. Obviously, though, I do NOT share your view, else we would not be having this discussion.

For starters, it's unrealistic to think most forum participants could be expected to, or even SHOULD be expected to do THAT much reading before having a discussion.

Yes, people should have at least some background knowledge, yes, people should know what they are talking about, or at least should earnestly believe they do. But there's a range of knowledge that makes a person's view genuinely valid. It's not 100% or bust.
We could never discuss ANYTHING if that were true.

Then again, I consider the matter of informing people a task done as a matter of course. In your own way, you do too, though you're more compartmentalized. What I mean is that you like to have things in clearly defined places. Educating people, for instance, is done by you in Respect Threads. You'll DO it in other threads, I'm well aware, but that's obviously not your preference.
Much the same holds for side discussion. You don't like it in main threads even when relevant and related. Proof? This very thread.
It's a little different for me. I believe in addressing questions or disagreements on the spot, IF relevant and appropriate.

The other thing, though, is the reality that, AGAIN,
everything published in Superman comics in the past 3 decades is NOT necessarily relevant or useful in a specific proposed fight scenario.

You don't need to know that Superman's favorite color is blue, for instance, in figuring out how he'd fare against Captain Marvel. If Action Comics #543 contains that information and I don't know about, so what?

More informed is not always better informed for specialized discussions.

Your arguments need more concrete grounding.

Just to be sure I've got my bases covered, I should say that, though it might not help to know Superman's favorite color is blue when fighting Captain Marvel, it might be useful to know, if, under specific circumstances, the color red sets Clark off into an uncontrollable Hulk-like rage where he throws 180 degree haymaker punches to anyone wearing that hue.

People arguing for Billy will want to insist he change his outfit in a HURRY if that's the case ...

Yeah, thats what i said gosh darn it!

Your reading them upside down again.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I guess you will agree that following the feats of WW it will be easier than following the feats of Superman or Batman so "nearly equally" is a tad bit to exagerated by a rate of 6/2


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No.

Because there are several problems with your reasoning.

I'll cover just two for now in the interest of time.
(I'll give more later if time permits and/or you respond to this post.)

The first problem with your reasoning is that you seem to be subscribing to the fallacy that, because Superman has more published adventures than anyone else, he has more feats than anyone else, and THEREFORE, on a forum where feats carry a great deal of weight, Superman should automatically win.

This does not work. I think you would agree that, due to his long history, Superman has more adventures and feats on the printed page than, say, Marvel Comics' Odin.

Would that mean, then, that, if Superman and Odin fought, Superman should win?

I actually I don't know where did I ever said that just because Superman has more comics, he should win? I NEVER SAID THAT. I said he has more comics and he is more difficult to track than other characters


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Another problem with your line of reasoning is assuming that all of these extra adventures Superman has per month grants Superman feats that are actually USEFUL to a fight discussion. Will Superman thwarting a bank robbery by goading a robber into shooting his chest until he runs out of bullets be useful in determining how well Superman would handle a near-infinite mass punch from a fighting mad Wally West Flash? An enraged World War Hulk? Captain Marvel, after Cap has absorbed the energies of Black Adam to go with his own?

Bullets bouncing off his chest are... at least to me USELESS feats, come on! Bullets bouncing out of his chest will be a useful feat for THOR (funy enough thor has those "feats" on his respect tread) I am talking about usefull feats and canon facts that people are not even aware of.

Like people claiming that Superman's molecular structure can be rearanged easily and in large quantities based on Silver Surfer affecting a deer molecularly, that is just ridiculuos as if the a deer will be as resistent as Superman.

Facts like not knowing that Superman can mental block himself, facts like kryptonite that is not from his respective universe will do squat on him

Those are the useful feats and fact, bullets bouncing off his chest, that is funny.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

All I am saying that building a case against a character who only appears once a month is way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month. The character with 7 appearances a month has so many feats that is almost impossible for you to know what he can or can't do, yet detractors often express their opinions as facts as if they knew the character and have read all his/her stories.


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Acknowledged.


Still disagree.

I honestly don't know how is it that you are disagreeing that is easier to follow a character with few apparitions than a charatcer with lots of apparitions, but lets keep going.


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Reasons?

One, for whatever reason, people DON'T seem to know much about the non-Superman character they are debating against.
I originally responded, for instance, because I noticed a comment someone made about Superman's blood shattering Diana's weapon, stating this as if Supes could do this at any time against Wonder Woman's standard forum gear.

He can't. The showing they were talking about is a scene in "For Tomorrow". You will discover, if you read the series, or even my post from a few pages back, that the weapon is not Diana's but a witch's named Halcyon. It is, unlike Diana's own standard forum gear, magically sharp, but NOT magically durable. People envisioning Diana's own gear proving ineffective because of what they think they remember in THAT story, need to have another thought coming.

I will put this in percentages. Superman appeared on 7 publications:

Superman, Action Comics, Adventures of Superman, Man of Steel, Man of Tomorrow, JLA and Superman/Batman

If you read all of those comics that means you read 99% of Superman comics regulaly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Superman comics.

Wonder Woman appeared on 2 publications:

Wonder Woman and JLA

If you read all those comics that means you read 99% of Wonder Woman comics regularly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Wonder Woman comics.

BUT Lets inverse the roles here

The Superman fan since he reads JLA titles too he is versed on 49.5% of Wonder Woman appearances
The Wonder Woman fan since he reads JLA tittles too he is versed on 14% of Superman appearances

So the Superman fan has a 99% knowledge of Superman and a 49.5% knowledge of Wonder Woman
The Wonder Woman fan has a 99% knowledge of Wonder Woman and a 14% knowledge of Superman

Who do you think should know more?

The answer is not even debatable, the Superman fan has and advantage of knowledge of Superman of 85% and he is versed 50% on Wonder Woman.

The only way this will change, is if The WW fan will take sometime and inform himself on Superman comics before constructing arguments of ignorance or ill informed or at least he can't lets us know that he is ill informed on Superman. The same applies to the Superman fan, but he is at least better informed on the WW topic.

As for the gear of WW, I think is good that people like you who follow WW inform everybody of those details and btw I never thought that the sword shown on tomorrow is part of her standard gear. I know that because I read Superman comics and JLA comics.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I would have to say, while on that point, whether there is a necessary correlation or not, it really does seem that the more well-read people are concerning Superman, the less well-read they seem to be about other characters, at least as far as battle worthy details like that are concerned.

It would make sense: there are only so many hours in the day FOR free-time reading. If you devote that time almost exclusively to character X, there's not a lot left over for learning about character Y, is there?

I think you are wrong just by the simple percentages I showed you above, Reading JLA gives us access to 49% of characters like Aquaman, WW, MMH, Flash while WW readers only access 14% of characters like Superman or Batman.

btw I used to read a lot of all the Superman, Batman, Hulk, Punisher and Spiderman tittles backed up by JLA, Xmen classic and Avengers so that gives you a general idea.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Disagree for two more reasons.

One is that your words above ("once a month" imply that the primary or most valid way to determine what a character can do, is to examine what they do in their own title, virtually to the exclusion of others. For Wonder Woman, this equates to EXTREME handicapping, namely because nearly ALL her famous and best showings, occur in OTHER titles, not her own.

Note that Wonder Woman stopping mountain-sized rocks, or facing down a team busting opponent like Amazo, or deflecting Darkseid's lethal omega beams, or using her physical strength to help restore Earth to proper orbit is something distinctly alien to her own title. Her own writers, pre-Flashpoint, at least, simply do not give her such feats in the Wonder Woman magazine.

Whatever story they had to tell had no need for such things, or if they did, still weren't provided.
Does that mean Diana is incapable of such then? Or does it simply mean that a researcher has to cast his or her net wider than they might first think?

I never said nor imply that own tittles are primary or most valid, but since you are touching the subject lets see, what happens to Superman in order to favor or make the other characters shine.

Superman has his good and also great feats on JLA Tittles, He held a black hole on his hand, one shoted casually primaid and a bunch of others, though on his own titles he has those type of feats too, cooling down a white dwarf star, one shoting imperex probes and a bunch of others.

While Superman performs really good on his titles, he is often excluded, dumbed down or made to look less formidable on the JLA comics in order to make the other characers shine a little bit, clear example is Grant Morrison's bat God, but is not only exclusive of Batman, they also have to make the other members of the team relevant, we are not reading PC comics anymore in which JLA members were basically useless and WW was serving coffee. so they decide to make the other team members relevant often at expense of Superman, but you know why? because an enemy that can take Superman is a dangerous enemy to defeat the whole league. A character that can defeat WW does not sound as fearsome as a character that can defeat Superman TBH

While WW and others benefit from this post crisis DC mentality, Superman has to take a secondary role in order to let the others shine.

This also reminded me, How DC often leaves Superman out of the company crossovers.

So is funny you mention those feats for WW because they actually sacrifice Superman in order to give her those feats, that she REGULARLY does not get on her own book.
At least Superman has plenty to get from his books and once in a while he gets a worthy feat out of JLA comic books with out sacrificing other characters.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The second thing, or, perhaps more accurately, part B of reason 2 ...



is that there is only so much material that can be published by different authors with only loose editorship, before "fact" about fictional characters begin to contradict each other.

As Area Vet noted in less than tactful terms, you yourself know quite a bit about Superman, and appear to have one of the largest collections on him on KMC. Doubtless you possess knowledge that the average person, and perhaps even DC's own writers, would consider obscure.

For instance, in a previous discussion in some long ago thread, you told me that Superman has, at least in some periods of the pre-Flashpoint, a mental instability that causes his body to process sunlight LESS efficiently than it might another Kryptonian. In other words, he subconsciously "blocks" his own power, to the point that, even in full sunlight, he can and has proven as "powerless" as an average human. This would occur very noticeably after the Infinite Crisis series, an event that took place long after most of the fights we've been discussing in this thread.

What would that mean in a versus scenario, though?
Have you gained anything by saying "My character is weaker than he could be!" "Just imagine if he WEREN'T sort of mental ..." ?

How is that usefull on a VS scenarion? VS Scenario dictates peak capabilities. It is said that He process and retains sunlight based on his stress level, peak capability in a vs scenario it means basically that you are facing OWAW Superman in each fight.

That is how it is relevant

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No real disagreement between us to be found in the 2 sentences above ...

I acknowledge that this is your take on things. Obviously, though, I do NOT share your view, else we would not be having this discussion.

For starters, it's unrealistic to think most forum participants could be expected to, or even SHOULD be expected to do THAT much reading before having a discussion.

Yes, people should have at least some background knowledge, yes, people should know what they are talking about, or at least should earnestly believe they do. But there's a range of knowledge that makes a person's view genuinely valid. It's not 100% or bust.
We could never discuss ANYTHING if that were true.

Then again, I consider the matter of informing people a task done as a matter of course. In your own way, you do too, though you're more compartmentalized. What I mean is that you like to have things in clearly defined places. Educating people, for instance, is done by you in Respect Threads. You'll DO it in other threads, I'm well aware, but that's obviously not your preference.
Much the same holds for side discussion. You don't like it in main threads even when relevant and related. Proof? This very thread.
It's a little different for me. I believe in addressing questions or disagreements on the spot, IF relevant and appropriate.

The other thing, though, is the reality that, AGAIN,
everything published in Superman comics in the past 3 decades is NOT necessarily relevant or useful in a specific proposed fight scenario.

You don't need to know that Superman's favorite color is blue, for instance, in figuring out how he'd fare against Captain Marvel. If Action Comics #543 contains that information and I don't know about, so what?

More informed is not always better informed for specialized discussions.

Your arguments need more concrete grounding.

I think there are ways to have a discussion. When someone who does not know about a topic gets proven wrong he or she should acknowledge that they didn't know that, but that is not the case, they just keep moving the goal post and keep using their argument of ignorance even though they have been proven wrong, they dismiss evidence or plain ignore it and keep their arguments based on RARE showings of Superman as the known all that there is to know about Superman like for example thinking that WW is stronger than Superman based on 15% of his showings and ignoring the other 85%

That is what I meant not about his favorite color don't be silly.

Also while I agree that even ignorant people should express their opinion, they should be humble enough to not act as if they know everything about the character based on a forum debate (not you, I mean Bluevet) there is that.

Oh and I didn't think this was relevant to the other thread as WW was not involved on it. I think PR or Bada will eventually point that out

BTW Did you knew that Dan Jurgens had Gladiator and Thor strugling to save/lift a passanger plane while Superman did the same feat under the same writter only with his breath?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Did you know that Dan Jurgens had Gladiator and Thor struggling to save/lift a passenger plane while Superman did the same feat under the same writer only with his breath?


Superbreath is arguably the most wildly inconsistent power in comics.

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Jurgens or almost any other writer did have a character do what you claim.

Almost the moment I read this, for instance, I thought back to Peter David's "Hail Kara" arc, the final issues, until Loeb's unexpected reboot years later, of the Supergirl magazine.

Many Happy Returns #80. Features, supposedly, the original Kara Zor-el.
Brought back ... well, because Peter David wanted to bring Kara Zor-el back. It was his final attempt to boost flagging sales and save the magazine from cancellation.

Anyway it's notable because it has Kara Zor-el, the Silver Age Supergirl, going up against some demon or demon-like being named Xenon.

Note how ineffective Kara is confronting the demon in this encounter, which leads to her subduing and capture, when going after him with a flying rush and heat vision ...

... then notice the remarkable success a simple exhalation has:

Luckily He just didn't perform that feat with Super breath, he also did it with Superstrength

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I just remembered this feat of Superman

It is by Superman's standards a measly feat but what it caught my attention is that Dan Jurgens had Gladiator and Thor performing a similar feat, you will see what I mean

Superman's feat under Dan Jurgens (notice the plane has 5 doors and it looks like a boeing 747)

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Strength/th_Adventures%20Of%20Superman%20Annual%2002-05_zpsdzdlsjzi.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Strength/th_Adventures%20Of%20Superman%20Annual%2002-06_zpsjiegkd2y.jpg

BY COMPARISON

Thor/Gladiator's under Dan Jurgens (notice the plane has 3 doors and looks like a boeing 737)

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Strength/th_Thor_2001_035_28_zpslaojspp5.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Strength/th_Thor_2001_035_29_zpsaurpeuqa.jpg http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Strength/th_Thor_2001_035_30_zpsq9kh75qg.jpg

If that is not enough Here is Superman under Dan Jurgens pushing what it seems a boeing c17 cargo plane with just his super breath while saving another smaller plane

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Super%20breath/th_AdventuresOfSuperman468p09_zps9bc61320.jpg

And is not only superbreath of kryptonians inconsistent is ALL the powers of ALL the fictional characters

Anyway, superbreath has a long history of doing things that typically EXCEED the effectiveness of conventional physical strength, and almost nothing you could show or relate regarding it would surprise me.

Or rather, I suppose I should say, I would be surprised if you managed TO surprise me. There ARE a lot of DC books that have been published in the last 20 to 30-odd years, after all. And you do have a big collection.
So you might pull it off.

I'd just be surprised to find anything that COULD surprise me where "metabreathing" magic is at work.


Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I didn't think this was relevant to the other thread as WW was not involved on it. I think PR or Bada will eventually point that out


Pr is a moderator. As such, he has the task of insuring a certain amount of order is kept. Sometimes, that means even things that ARE relevant to a discussion must be discouraged.

Truthfully, I wondered myself where Wonder Woman came into that particular discussion. Seeing it just as a title on the lists of current topics and going to the most recent posts showing then, I thought the thread was meant to be Superman versus most any major competition without weakness exploitation. I was surprised to find, reading the original post not long afterwards, that it was actually asking for how people think Superman versus Captain Marvel, Superman versus Silver Surfer, and Superman versus Green Lantern would go.

You're probably thinking now: "See? Wonder Woman was nowhere mentioned there! She was never intended to be part of the discussion! She's off-topic!"

There's a problem with that, though. And on page 10 of that thread, Area Vet pointed out what that problem was:

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet

Compare WHAT exactly? don't exist in the same universes. They are both top dogs in their respective universes, but don't completely dominate the tier. If they did, they would be considered in a higher tier. Don't try to act like Diana hasn't gotten the best of Superman ...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=522650&pagenumber=10


There's no way to evaluate Superman versus Silver Surfer directly.
It HAS to be done by proxy. So Area Vet chose to explore how Superman fared against other herald-class opponents. THAT's why Wonder Woman was brought into the thread. She's a fight opponent stand-in where otherwise practically no one not already mentioned in the OP's original post (i.e. Captain Marvel and Green Lantern) exists. At least, not that the average forum discussion participant would be aware of.

She's useful in illustrating what Superman historically has DONE against someone else in his class, so that Supes' strategies and behavior in a matchup with a Marvel character that Supes CAN'T possibly interact with might better be determined.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Disagree for two more reasons.

One is that your words above ("once a month" imply that the primary or most valid way to determine what a character can do, is to examine what they do in their own title, virtually to the exclusion of others. For Wonder Woman, this equates to EXTREME handicapping, namely because nearly ALL her famous and best showings, occur in OTHER titles, not her own.

Note that Wonder Woman stopping mountain-sized rocks, or facing down a team busting opponent like Amazo, or deflecting Darkseid's lethal omega beams, or using her physical strength to help restore Earth to proper orbit is something distinctly alien to her own title. Her own writers, pre-Flashpoint, at least, simply do not give her such feats in the Wonder Woman magazine.

Whatever story they had to tell had no need for such things, or if they did, still weren't provided.
Does that mean Diana is incapable of such then? Or does it simply mean that a researcher has to cast his or her net wider than they might first think?

This reminds me of something in an argument we had in another thread. When I pointed-out Superman has feats superior to the Earth moving thing in JLA, you asked what solo feats he has. Well, I could give a number of better solo feats, although I feel it would be futile. I know you would nitpick and try to dismiss most if not all of them.

But, I have a question. What solo feats of strength does Wonder Woman actually have? If she's lacking the JLA level stuff in her solo title, I'm sure she doesn't have any planet moving feats. Dwarf planet/moon level? Continent? Mountain level? What are her best solo strength feats? I know regardless of what I show you for Superman you'll go into your nitpicking and ignore stuff and even go on your sketchy claim of he was depowered, but I'd like to know what feats Diana has. On her OWN.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I acknowledge that this is your take on things. Obviously, though, I do NOT share your view, else we would not be having this discussion.

For starters, it's unrealistic to think most forum participants could be expected to, or even SHOULD be expected to do THAT much reading before having a discussion.

This makes me think of the time you argued that Supergirl>Superman in part because she beat Ultraman. But, the problem with that, that's relevant to your argument to Rao, is that you thought he was a different character. As far as I can tell, he only appeared in that storyline. Which means his only feats are losing twice to Supergirl(who had some help from Power Girl). He definitely is NOT the Ultraman you thought he was, who's roughly equal to Superman.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yes, people should have at least some background knowledge, yes, people should know what they are talking about, or at least should earnestly believe they do. But there's a range of knowledge that makes a person's view genuinely valid. It's not 100% or bust.
We could never discuss ANYTHING if that were true.

While it's true that it's not 100% or bust, this was.....REALLY bad on the Ultraman thing. Especially in light of the fact that you tried to demean my example of Superman one-shotting Bizarro with freeze breath because he "didn't look like the classic Bizarro." But.....this is the Ultraman that Supergirl fought.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Alternates/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/SUPERGIRL_V5_6-PG22.jpg

And this is the Ultraman you thought he was.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Alternates/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/JLA110-PG22.jpg

"Kinda" different costume. Actually the Ultraman who actually has fought Superman doesn't have the red briefs as normal, as he's tearing off Superman's costume over his. But that was the best view I could find quick.

But the point was, they have such different costumes. And you immediately questioned it being the same Bizarro because he "didn't look like the classic Bizarro." But it's not just the costume, if you read JLA: EARTH 2 you'd know that's not the same Ultraman that Supergirl encountered, even if they had the same costume. I don't think you've actually conceded your error.

Before I answer your last comment

There is no rebuttal for my other comments, so I will take that as a concession or agreement, unless you want to post a rebuttal for each post

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Anyway, superbreath has a long history of doing things that typically EXCEED the effectiveness of conventional physical strength, and almost nothing you could show or relate regarding it would surprise me.

Or rather, I suppose I should say, I would be surprised if you managed TO surprise me. There ARE a lot of DC books that have been published in the last 20 to 30-odd years, after all. And you do have a big collection.
So you might pull it off.

I'd just be surprised to find anything that COULD surprise me where "metabreathing" magic is at work.

I think of the effectiveness of super breath compared to physical force is more based on Superman's or Supergirl's own physical restrain. Super breath is used as a non-lethal attack.

How do I come to this conclussion? Well that will be because I followed Superman comics for a long time

And I am not trying to surprise you nor amaze you, just educate you on the Superman topic, though I don't know if it will work as I see a biased tendency in you, but I could be wrong.



Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Pr is a moderator. As such, he has the task of insuring a certain amount of order is kept. Sometimes, that means even things that ARE relevant to a discussion must be discouraged.

Truthfully, I wondered myself where Wonder Woman came into that particular discussion. Seeing it just as a title on the lists of current topics and going to the most recent posts showing then, I thought the thread was meant to be Superman versus most any major competition without weakness exploitation. I was surprised to find, reading the original post not long afterwards, that it was actually asking for how people think Superman versus Captain Marvel, Superman versus Silver Surfer, and Superman versus Green Lantern would go.

You're probably thinking now: "See? Wonder Woman was nowhere mentioned there! She was never intended to be part of the discussion! She's off-topic!"

There's a problem with that, though. And on page 10 of that thread, Area Vet pointed out what that problem was:



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=522650&pagenumber=10


There's no way to evaluate Superman versus Silver Surfer directly.
It HAS to be done by proxy. So Area Vet chose to explore how Superman fared against other herald-class opponents. THAT's why Wonder Woman was brought into the thread. She's a fight opponent stand-in where otherwise practically no one not already mentioned in the OP's original post (i.e. Captain Marvel and Green Lantern) exists. At least, not that the average forum discussion participant would be aware of.

She's useful in illustrating what Superman historically has DONE against someone else in his class, so that Supes' strategies and behavior in a matchup with a Marvel character that Supes CAN'T possibly interact with might better be determined.

There is a magical word in that post "HISTORICALLY"

Well Mr Blue area vet try to build an argument based on 14% of Superman's history while ignoring the other 85%

Canon:

A league of one:
Wonder Woman concedes that she cannot defeat Superman even after she sucker punched him, Superman handles her easily

Winner: Superman

Action Comics 600:
Not a real fight as both are trying to deceive the enemy

Winner: none

Adventures of Superman 642:
A mind controlled Superman scuffles WW, scuffle is too brief, mind controlled Superman gets away

Winner: none
Superman had a mind controlled handicap

Final Crisis
Superman one shots a mind controlled Wonder Woman as a result of an attack that was not even directed at her

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman felt down defeated at an attack that was not even directed at her

JLA77
"Mind controlled" Wonder Woman scuffles Superman with the help of a "mind controlled" Firestorm, both fail at restraining Superman, Superman defuses the Mnemon sucessfully

Winner Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman had help from a mind controlled Firestorm

JLA96
Mind controlled Superman fights Wonder Woman, Superman snaps briefly out of the mind control and Diana knocks briefly Superman, which allows Diana to attack the crucifier, A mind controlled Superman then knocks Wonder Woman which allow crucifier to almost kill Wonder Woman

Winner: None
Superman had a mind controlled handicap but some help in the end from crucifier to kill Wonder Woman although Diana HAD help from Superman contantly fighting the mind control

Advantage: Superman

Man of Tomorrow 13
A crazed Superman fights the JLA and the Superman family, Wonder Woman was barely able to restrain Superman's right arm, Superman was 100% charged, not amped like many believe, when Superman is amped he starts emitting plasma.

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA

Action Comics 753
Same crazed Superman faces the JLA, Wonder Woman try to restrain Superman's left arm she was unable to do so. Superman then faces the whole league

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA

Superman for tomorrow
Superman casually figths Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman looks like a child trying to fight an adult

Winner: Superman

Wonder Woman 175
A mind controlled brute Superman fights Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman manages to restrain Superman with the lasso, not after she gets bloody and ends up in really bad shape, while Superman is not even bleeding

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap

Wonder Woman 219
A mind controlled Superman fights Diana, Superman almost killed Diana with in the first two minutes of the fight, but since he was mind controlled he decides to make Wonder Woman/Doomsday suffer, eventulally Diana is able to pull the win

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap

Debatable canon stories

Adventures of Superman 494
Superman kills Wonder Woman on an alternative future

Winner: Superman

Superman/Batman 15 this is canon for Superman and apparently for WW too
An enraged Superman makes a short work of Diana and kills her

Winner: Superman

WW last comics pre flash point
There is another story on WW comics in which she is amped and gets a magical sword and she kills Superman. This happened in a Dream that is supposed to become true

Winner: Wonder Woman
Wonder Woman was amped

So 11 canon fights and the only times WW has won it is because Superman is mentally compromised, when Superman's wins treats her like a child, Wonder Woman has help, or KO's her by accident when she is mind controlled

It is clearly that Superman has a huge advantage and dominates Wonder Woman, Blue vets argument IGONORES CONTEX and the other 85% of their story. It is Clear that Superman has the advantage over Wonder Woman and to question if he dominates his tier based on 15% of their showing is foolish.

While in some fights that Superman has won Wonder Woman has the mind controlled handicap, Wonder Woman HAD help on those fights

Superman has won 6 fights, had the advantage on 1, two have no clear winner and Wonder Woman has won 2 fights with Superman mentally compromised

How is that not a clear advantage for Superman?

So if you or blue vet try to use this "HISTORICAL" fights to at least DON'T CONVINIENTLY "FORGET" THE OTHER 85%

Superman clearly wins and dominates WW historically and just in case you wonder winning only 2 fights with a mind controlled handicap out of 11 fights is basically winning 18% of their fights while cheating

Salsa,

I did not respond to your other points out of consideration for time.
It is limited for me, even as it is for you.

Continuing:

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


hile I agree that ... people should express their opinion, they should be humble enough to not act as if they know everything about the character based on a forum debate (not you, I mean Bluevet) there is that.


It's not my goal to provoke anyone without cause. The discussion between you and Area Vet is between you and Area Vet.


Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I think there are ways to have a discussion. When someone who does not know about a topic gets proven wrong he or she should acknowledge that they didn't know that, but that is not the case, they just keep moving the goal post and keep using their argument of ignorance even though they have been proven wrong, they dismiss evidence or plain ignore it and keep their arguments based on RARE showings of Superman as the known all that there is to know about Superman like for example thinking that WW is stronger than Superman based on 15% of his showings and ignoring the other 85%

That is what I meant not about his favorite color don't be silly.




Illustrations that show sharp, even absurd, contrasts are usually clearer and easier to understand. That's the primary reason I made the color joke.

(Note there ARE stories like that, though. Any Silver Age fan will be more than happy to tell you DC went there all the time.)

The rest of the questions implied in this part of the post will be answered naturally in answering your OTHER posts in this thread; don't worry.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


VS Scenario dictates peak capabilities.
It is said that He process and retains sunlight based on his stress level,

peak capability in a vs scenario ...

means basically that you are facing
OWAW (Our Worlds At War) Superman in each fight.



For now, I'll only acknowledge that you wrote this.

Your statement

a) comes into conflict with the forum rule of having people fight in character,
b) fails to acknowledge that Superman's mindset in Our Worlds at War was all over the place throughout that series,
c) is best disputed with concrete showings from other sources and series,
and
d) will naturally be answered as the thread progresses.


Regarding "bias" I do have to point out that,
for American speakers, readers, and writers, at least,
capitalizing "He" in the middle of a sentence is a feature historically reserved for discussions where God is being referred to, and practically nowhere else.

That is probably not why you capitalized Superman
(HOPEFULLY it's not ),
but it's an interesting thing to see here, just the same.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I actually I don't know where did I ever said that just because Superman has more comics, he should win? I NEVER SAID THAT. I said he has more comics and he is more difficult to track than other characters


There are things implied by certain statements which are present even if you don't intend them. Proof of this? The 2 statements typed by Riv6672 in this thread on the first page. It was strongly enough implied that, without acknowledging much of anything of the specific thread discussion we'd had before, HE felt the need to address that argument.

The implication cannot be avoided Salsa. Whether you intended it or not, a good discussion MUST necessarily deal with this idea.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


Bullets bouncing off his chest are... at least to me USELESS feats, come on! Bullets bouncing out of his chest will be a useful feat for THOR (funny enough thor has those "feats" on his respect tread) I am talking about useful feats and canon facts that people are not even aware of.

Like people claiming that Superman's molecular structure can be rearranged easily and in large quantities based on Silver Surfer affecting a deer molecularly, that is just ridiculous as if the a deer will be as resistant as Superman.

Facts like not knowing that Superman can mental block himself, facts like kryptonite that is not from his respective universe will do squat on him

Those are the useful feats and fact, bullets bouncing off his chest, that is funny.


As a default mode, I'll address things in the context of the Marvel/Surfer/Lantern thread we started this from, and this one even more so because this was a post directly addressing that.

1) Besides providing clear illustration, humor tends to lessen the inevitable tension of debate. Especially important in that thread, since it was not private discussion but moderated "debate". You yourself are fairly cordial and well-behaved, but others ...

Which is why I'm likely going to limit my responses to you alone in this thread. Don't need any distractions or hard feelings, and you, virtually alone of the Superman fans I've interacted with here over the years, I feel I can trust to be civil. I'm also certain I can trust you to present anything that needs presenting for response for useful conversation.

Or re-presenting as the case may be.


2. The bullet topic is a layered one and alludes to several things I wanted to discuss. The two that immediately come to mind:

a) Diana's evolution over the years, increasing in durability, strength, and fight prowess far exceeding that of her 1980s and 1990s (read: Our Worlds at War) incarnations.

b) Fight M.O. of Superman. Who gets hit often when fighting lower level opponents. Habitually, from what I've seen.
Does his behavior change when fighting high-level, in this case "herald" level opposition? If it doesn't, he's going to be at a very real disadvantage against swift and true heavy hitters. He won't have trained to avoid their power.

3. Alternate kryptonite considerations would hold in a normal discussion.
The thread we were discussing this in context of disallowed kryptonite, though.

4. I don't know on what level Surfer's matter manipulation operates.
If it's anywhere near the level of pre-Flashpoint Darkseid, Superman wins a fight against Surfer only with Surfer's permission, even as it is Character Induced self-restraint on the part of Darkseid that permits Superman to go on living ... at least as judged by the showings on the following page:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/darkseid-vs-superman-prime-599347/

Relevance? Teleportation is often considered matter breakdown, transference over space and distance, and re-assembling. Note that Darkseid THREE TIMES locks onto Superman without Superman's permission and sends Superman wherever Darkseid decides he WANTS to send Superman ie Earth, his palace, and Earth AGAIN.
From what I've seen to date, only plot armor and Darkseid's own sense of honor protects Superman from a one-way trip to the heart of a red sun.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Before I answer your last comment

There is no rebuttal for my other comments, so I will take that as a concession or agreement, unless you want to post a rebuttal for each post



I think of the effectiveness of super breath compared to physical force is more based on Superman's or Supergirl's own physical restrain. Super breath is used as a non-lethal attack.

How do I come to this conclussion? Well that will be because I followed Superman comics for a long time

And I am not trying to surprise you nor amaze you, just educate you on the Superman topic, though I don't know if it will work as I see a biased tendency in you, but I could be wrong.





There is a magical word in that post "HISTORICALLY"

Well Mr Blue area vet try to build an argument based on 14% of Superman's history while ignoring the other 85%

Canon:

A league of one:
Wonder Woman concedes that she cannot defeat Superman even after she sucker punched him, Superman handles her easily

Winner: Superman

Action Comics 600:
Not a real fight as both are trying to deceive the enemy

Winner: none

Adventures of Superman 642:
A mind controlled Superman scuffles WW, scuffle is too brief, mind controlled Superman gets away

Winner: none
Superman had a mind controlled handicap

Final Crisis
Superman one shots a mind controlled Wonder Woman as a result of an attack that was not even directed at her

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman felt down defeated at an attack that was not even directed at her

JLA77
"Mind controlled" Wonder Woman scuffles Superman with the help of a "mind controlled" Firestorm, both fail at restraining Superman, Superman defuses the Mnemon sucessfully

Winner Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman had help from a mind controlled Firestorm

JLA96
Mind controlled Superman fights Wonder Woman, Superman snaps briefly out of the mind control and Diana knocks briefly Superman, which allows Diana to attack the crucifier, A mind controlled Superman then knocks Wonder Woman which allow crucifier to almost kill Wonder Woman

Winner: None
Superman had a mind controlled handicap but some help in the end from crucifier to kill Wonder Woman although Diana HAD help from Superman contantly fighting the mind control

Advantage: Superman

Man of Tomorrow 13
A crazed Superman fights the JLA and the Superman family, Wonder Woman was barely able to restrain Superman's right arm, Superman was 100% charged, not amped like many believe, when Superman is amped he starts emitting plasma.

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA

Action Comics 753
Same crazed Superman faces the JLA, Wonder Woman try to restrain Superman's left arm she was unable to do so. Superman then faces the whole league

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA

Superman for tomorrow
Superman casually figths Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman looks like a child trying to fight an adult

Winner: Superman

Wonder Woman 175
A mind controlled brute Superman fights Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman manages to restrain Superman with the lasso, not after she gets bloody and ends up in really bad shape, while Superman is not even bleeding

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap

Wonder Woman 219
A mind controlled Superman fights Diana, Superman almost killed Diana with in the first two minutes of the fight, but since he was mind controlled he decides to make Wonder Woman/Doomsday suffer, eventulally Diana is able to pull the win

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap

Debatable canon stories

Adventures of Superman 494
Superman kills Wonder Woman on an alternative future

Winner: Superman

Superman/Batman 15 this is canon for Superman and apparently for WW too
An enraged Superman makes a short work of Diana and kills her

Winner: Superman

WW last comics pre flash point
There is another story on WW comics in which she is amped and gets a magical sword and she kills Superman. This happened in a Dream that is supposed to become true

Winner: Wonder Woman
Wonder Woman was amped

So 11 canon fights and the only times WW has won it is because Superman is mentally compromised, when Superman's wins treats her like a child, Wonder Woman has help, or KO's her by accident when she is mind controlled

It is clearly that Superman has a huge advantage and dominates Wonder Woman, Blue vets argument IGONORES CONTEX and the other 85% of their story. It is Clear that Superman has the advantage over Wonder Woman and to question if he dominates his tier based on 15% of their showing is foolish.

While in some fights that Superman has won Wonder Woman has the mind controlled handicap, Wonder Woman HAD help on those fights

Superman has won 6 fights, had the advantage on 1, two have no clear winner and Wonder Woman has won 2 fights with Superman mentally compromised

How is that not a clear advantage for Superman?

So if you or blue vet try to use this "HISTORICAL" fights to at least DON'T CONVINIENTLY "FORGET" THE OTHER 85%

Superman clearly wins and dominates WW historically and just in case you wonder winning only 2 fights with a mind controlled handicap out of 11 fights is basically winning 18% of their fights while cheating



Way to school him, Rao.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,

I did not respond to your other points out of consideration for time.
It is limited for me, even as it is for you.

Continuing:





Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's not my goal to provoke anyone without cause. The discussion between you and Area Vet is between you and Area Vet.





Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Illustrations that show sharp, even absurd, contrasts are usually clearer and easier to understand. That's the primary reason I made the color joke.

(Note there ARE stories like that, though. Any Silver Age fan will be more than happy to tell you DC went there all the time.)

The rest of the questions implied in this part of the post will be answered naturally in answering your OTHER posts in this thread; don't worry.

... OK ...


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
For now, I'll only acknowledge that you wrote this.

Your statement

a) comes into conflict with the forum rule of having people fight in character,

Ironically you want to give us an example of a mind controlled Superman as IF that is fighting in character

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
b) fails to acknowledge that Superman's mindset in Our Worlds at War was all over the place throughout that series,

Not really, it estated especifically that at some point when he was really focussed he performed on a level never seen before, before that He was in character and doing the things he usually does, like defeating enemies the whole JLA cannot handle, when He focused it just became a ridiculuos stompage

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
c) is best disputed with concrete showings from other sources and series,

This is something I love about people who want to use an "average" on "average" heroes do not face dangers that pushed them to display their full power. On "average" Silver Surfer is flying on his board, on average Flash Do not run 1 million times the speed of light, on average they are not required to use their full power, but on average Superman does defeat enemies that use weakness exploitation that is on average on his comics on average he does not need to move a planet. I imagine this "concrete" showings you want to discuss will be more the exeption than the rule, but bring them on.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
and
d) will naturally be answered as the thread progresses.

... OK ...


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Regarding "bias" I do have to point out that,
for American speakers, readers, and writers, at least,
capitalizing "He" in the middle of a sentence is a feature historically reserved for discussions where God is being referred to, and practically nowhere else.

That is probably not why you capitalized Superman
(HOPEFULLY it's not ),
but it's an interesting thing to see here, just the same.

In spanish We do capitalize He as El or She as Ella and is not only reserved for God, it is used for anyone, except for objects. If I was refering to Superman as an object which he is then I will not capitalize it, but since I am reffering to Superman as a character then In spanish I have to capitalize it.

That is a rule I got from my native language


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There are things implied by certain statements which are present even if you don't intend them. Proof of this? The 2 statements typed by Riv6672 in this thread on the first page. It was strongly enough implied that, without acknowledging much of anything of the specific thread discussion we'd had before, HE felt the need to address that argument.

The implication cannot be avoided Salsa. Whether you intended it or not, a good discussion MUST necessarily deal with this idea.

Do I have to repeat myself?

No, having more comics does not give you an autowin

I hope that is clear now

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As a default mode, I'll address things in the context of the Marvel/Surfer/Lantern thread we started this from, and this one even more so because this was a post directly addressing that.

1) Besides providing clear illustration, humor tends to lessen the inevitable tension of debate. Especially important in that thread, since it was not private discussion but moderated "debate". You yourself are fairly cordial and well-behaved, but others ...

Which is why I'm likely going to limit my responses to you alone in this thread. Don't need any distractions or hard feelings, and you, virtually alone of the Superman fans I've interacted with here over the years, I feel I can trust to be civil. I'm also certain I can trust you to present anything that needs presenting for response for useful conversation.

Or re-presenting as the case may be.

OK


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
2. The bullet topic is a layered one and alludes to several things I wanted to discuss. The two that immediately come to mind:

a) Diana's evolution over the years, increasing in durability, strength, and fight prowess far exceeding that of her 1980s and 1990s (read: Our Worlds at War) incarnations.

I don't see how that made her any closer to Superman level when she got one shoted by an attack that was not even directed at her, even if she was mind controlled, but lets continue...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
b) Fight M.O. of Superman. Who gets hit often when fighting lower level opponents. Habitually, from what I've seen.
Does his behavior change when fighting high-level, in this case "herald" level opposition? If it doesn't, he's going to be at a very real disadvantage against swift and true heavy hitters. He won't have trained to avoid their power.

Superman tends to take the hit and He usually comes out ok, he keeps increasing his power as needed, just so he does not kill his opponent and I think few charatcers hit as hard as Synnar (which btw didn't KO him) IF you want you can bring all his showings in which he has be KO'ed and then I will bring all the showing in which He HASN'T been KO'ed. I'm sure I will have more, way more.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
3. Alternate kryptonite considerations would hold in a normal discussion.
The thread we were discussing this in context of disallowed kryptonite, though.

OK

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
4. I don't know on what level Surfer's matter manipulation operates.
If it's anywhere near the level of pre-Flashpoint Darkseid, Superman wins a fight against Surfer only with Surfer's permission, even as it is Character Induced self-restraint on the part of Darkseid that permits Superman to go on living ... at least as judged by the showings on the following page:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/darkseid-vs-superman-prime-599347/

Relevance? Teleportation is often considered matter breakdown, transference over space and distance, and re-assembling. Note that Darkseid THREE TIMES locks onto Superman without Superman's permission and sends Superman wherever Darkseid decides he WANTS to send Superman ie Earth, his palace, and Earth AGAIN.
From what I've seen to date, only plot armor and Darkseid's own sense of honor protects Superman from a one-way trip to the heart of a red sun.

Darkseid is more powerful than Silver Surfer and a better matter manipulator, he disrupted the matrix of Firestorm a character known to be a better matter manipulator than Surfer. Superman has tanked the omega effect.

Superman is physically a peer to Darkseid and his Duarability is higher than Darkseid, he is NOT more powerful than Darkseid

But Superman will tank anything that SS throws at him in regards of matter manipulation, Superman has resisted even transmutation on a magical level from an elder god, So Silver Surfer will have to bring something bigger than that.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Which is why I'm likely going to limit my responses to you alone in this thread. Don't need any distractions or hard feelings, and you, virtually alone of the Superman fans I've interacted with here over the years, I feel I can trust to be civil. I'm also certain I can trust you to present anything that needs presenting for response for useful conversation.


I'll take that both as Diana has nothing that a Mid-Tier on their best day couldn't do solo, and you simply don't want to concede your error on Ultraman.

Outside of arguing lip service Kara got during Loeb's storyline, which ended with Superman holds back, Kara has no restraint(something you don't want to accept), you have almost nothing to argue your stance on Supergirl>Superman from debut until Gates took over.

Your biggest argument was "she's beaten every Superman analogue she's faced." If I'm forgetting any, I apologize, but I remember you bringing up Ultraman, Power Boy and Mon-El.

Ultraman as pointed-out, to my knowledge, only appeared in that storyline. So his only feats were losing to Supergirl. Twice. Both instances Supergirl had some help from Power Girl(although Karen was weakened).

Power Boy? Read every appearance of him I could find. In the fight Supergirl won, through-out most of it Power Boy was NOT fighting back. He kept saying things like "don't make me hurt you" while, well, not retaliating. And he didn't have his aura up, like he did the time he beat Supergirl before, until the end when he teleported away and decided to fight back. Supergirl won by.....literally giving a flying knee to the groin. What's that supposed to prove against someone whose best feat is beating Supergirl prior to that(starting the fight off with a sucker punch)? His only other feat worth note is generally looking better than C-List Titans, except Hawk. Who actually came off as stronger than him.

Mon-El? Well, her "win" over him was fighting until she could restrain him while Brainy made a lead antidote and one of the LSHers threw it in his mouth. And his best feat is giving her a Hell of a fight despite him dying of lead poisoning. Oh yeah, that's something you failed to mention.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Captain%20Nazi%20exposure/Kara_Mon-El/SUPERGIRL_AND-THE_LSH%2025-PG08.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Captain%20Nazi%20exposure/Kara_Mon-El/SUPERGIRL_AND-THE_LSH%2026-PG10.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Captain%20Nazi%20exposure/Kara_Mon-El/SUPERGIRL_AND-THE_LSH%2026-PG11.jpg

You left out this very important context. And, brought up her technically winning by restraining him long enough for the antidote to be popped in his mouth. Makes me wonder if you actually read the comic. Which is taking the point Rao made this for the the nth degree.

But to the normal degree of the point of this topic, let's take the armored Luthor comparisons under Loeb. You argue Kara was effected more by Kryptonite than Superman. I've read both storylines and can tell you this is absolutely false. One argument you made was the Kryptonite cuffs, which were adjustable and Kara set them very low so she could look impressive breaking out of them. I doubt they had much effect, and the time frame of her in direct sunlight after that and before fighting Luthor should offset whatever effect it might have had.

Your other argument is she was "exposed to two types of Kryptonite." The burden of proof lies on you to prove that black Kryptonite had weakened her, instead of merely split off her "dark half." Even if you could somehow prove it did, it only applies to Dark Kara. Not Supergirl's fight with Luthor, where she got owned. Considering how Dark Kara performed against Luthor, and how Supergirl performed against Dark Kara, it's highly unlikely the black Kryptonite weakened her.

Superman, on the other hand, had been effected to at least some degree of Kryptonite starting in #2. And the Kryptonite increased as it got closer. During this time, he fought what by all accounts indicate was the Pre-CRISIS Earth-One Superman. Who was trying to kill him. Then he fought a number of villains(which included Nightshade, whose energy showed capable of draining Superman's energy), a number of heroes, had more time elapse, and then fought Captain Marvel. Then fought him again off-panel(dialogue indicated a sneak attack) and had even more time elapse.

Then, we see he's having a hard time holding it together, Toyman noticing he's not feeling well, then Captain Atom comes in and blasts Supes with an energy blast channeled through the Kryptonite ring. And he was out. A bit more time elapsed. Then he fought Luthor. Who was blasting him with what seemed to be Kryptonite energy. Also, he had a force field, something he didn't show against Supergirl/Dark Kara.

And I'm not factoring in before this started, about Superman being shot with a Kryptonite bullet, since it's hard to determine if it had any effect by the time PC Superman came in, being under a sunlamp after it was removed. Your argument is Supergirl beat Luthor better, but A: No she didn't, it was Dark Kara, B: it's quite clear to someone who has read both storylines that Superman was far more effected going into the fight than Supergirl was, and C: Dark Kara used her powers, not just strength, more effectively. Superman simply slugged it out with Luthor, overcoming his force field(that Supergirl/Dark Kara didn't have to contend with).

In regards to raw power, it's quite clear Superman absolutely out-performed Supergirl/Dark Kara and was far more effected by Kryptonite(and other factors) than Supergirl/Dark Kara was. If you read both storylines, that is. I have. You have not.

But what did you do when I brought these up to you? You brought-up Kara's Kryptonite poisoning. Yet, that was a retcon. Which means you cannot bring that up, while simultaneously dismissing Superman performing better than Ursa, General Zod and Non at once than Supergirl did against Ursa alone, because Supergirl was "made weaker." This is a blatant, complete double standard. Either you ignore the Kryptonite poisoning retcon and concede that Superman out-performed Supergirl against Luthor, or you retract your argument that she was weaker after Gates, and concede that Superman did better against Ursa/Zod/Non than Supergirl did against Ursa alone.

This brings me to another point. Your claim she was made less powerful. You say because she didn't grow-up on Krypton after Gates took over, compared to her growing-up on a "mega gravity planet that dwarfs Jupiter" shown in SUPERMAN: BIRTHRIGHT and that she was made younger. Due to your inability to back your claims, I used the DC Wiki to find every Supergirl appearance I could during the time you claimed that she was more powerful than Superman, and read them all. I've read her entire series up until Gates took over. I read all her appearances in SUPERMAN/BATMAN. I read her appearances in TEEN TITANS, and more. I also read a good number of appearances after, reading all of the NEW KRYPTON stuff(including the preludes BRAINIAC and THE COMING OF ATLAS), so I've read all of SUPERGIRL during that era, and the appearances she had in other comics.

I feel I've read the majority of her appearances. There's nothing to support your claim she was made less powerful after Sterling Gates took over. Your argument that she was raised on Argo City? She was in her teens by the time Brainiac came, which was before Krypton blew up. And on top of that, considering the atmosphere and artificial gravity on Argo City floating around in space, there's nothing to indicate that it wasn't a similar environment to Krypton. Which seems to be the crux of your argument that she was more powerful than Superman, having grown-up on a planet with far greater gravity. If you're going to argue that Krypton was changed from dwarfing Jupiter to something smaller, the burden of proof is on you.

For her getting younger, during the NEW KRYPTON stuff, she was of age to choose a guild, and Lana was talking to her about college. These indicate she's around 17-18. Contradicting your argument she was made 15. And I don't recall a single thing that would indicate she was made younger, but even if she was, guild choosing and college talk was before WAR OF THE SUPERMEN, meaning she was older than you say during the time you argue she was>Superman, when she performed worse against Ursa alone than Supes did against Ursa/Zod/Non simultaneously.


So, even if we accept Kryptonite poisoning, nothing to back she was made weaker after Gates, and it was removed well before WAR OF THE SUPERMEN. Also, ironic that you say she was made weaker after Gates when some of her better feats come from that period.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


Ironically you want to give us an example of a mind controlled Superman as IF that is fighting in character



You refer to Wonder Woman v2 #219, aka "Sacrifice".

Where Superman, thinking he is fighting against one of his toughest opponents, grabs said opponent roughly and relocates the fight to the sun. Where the opponent will likely experience some duress from the environment, even as Superman's own power is increased markedly by the increased yellow sunlight exposure.

If such is what you consider out of character, please be kind enough to post some scans for me from Superman/Batman #13, a magazine printed roughly one year earlier, if memory serves, where Superman gives Darkseid nearly exactly the same treatment (after Wonder Woman weakens Darkseid by reflecting his own Omega Beams back in his face).

Clark didn't grab her by the neck and take her for a ride with the intention of getting a power-up. He was going to throw her into the sun. Lucky for her he changed his mind. We also don't know how close to sun they were when he KHTFO either. So how much of a power-up he was actually getting we can't be sure. What we do know is that the kryptonite Diana had with her would've offset any power-up he was getting when he knocked her out with that one friggin punch.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You refer to Wonder Woman v2 #219, aka "Sacrifice".

Where Superman, thinking he is fighting against one of his toughest opponents, grabs said opponent roughly and relocates the fight to the sun. Where the opponent will likely experience some duress from the environment, even as Superman's own power is increased markedly by the increased yellow sunlight exposure.

If such is what you consider out of character, please be kind enough to post some scans for me from Superman/Batman #13, a magazine printed roughly one year earlier, if memory serves, where Superman gives Darkseid nearly exactly the same treatment (after Wonder Woman weakens Darkseid by reflecting his own Omega Beams back in his face).

Out of the 11 canon fights, somehow I knew you will like to focus on this one. I will be here reminding you that they also have other 10 fights on canon comics.

First of all 100% sun charge is PEAK CONDITION, Not a power increase, He is fighting at a 100% power level, if you want to claim that Superman is somewhat amplified from that solar exposure, then you will have to show Superman emmiting plasma, displaying new powers or his body will be getting unusually big, none of those happened on the book. So if you claim he is getting and extra boost or an amp the burden of proof is on you. He is only at Peak suncharge if any, like I said he is not emmiting plasma, nor developing new powers and his body is not abnormally big, so he is not amped, just 100% sun charged

Superman/Batman #13?

Where Superman toses Wonder Woman like a rag doll once again?

Where Superman instead of tossing Darkseid back into earth he stucks him in the source wall?

I wonder how the sacrifice fight will have ended if instead of throwing WW back to earth he will have tossed her to the source wall, how do you think it will have ended?
Oh because he wasn't mind controlled he was thinking clearly, he wasn't in grief and he wasn't having hallucinations. That is not at all like Sacrifice

I mean if you want to say that Superman was grieving the death of Supergirl and try to peg that as equal circumstances as SACRIFICE, You might want to remember that Superman KNEW Supergirl wasn't death and it was a plan to get her away from Darkseid

Now you might want to say that becase He was seeing Doomsday he took Doomsday into the sun, because he is a dangerous opponent, you might have a case as He took Darkseid into the sun then into the Source wall because he is a dangerous opponent as He took Cyntonia into the sun. HOWEVER IN the TWO instances he wasn't mind controlled he didn't show the "tactical genius" idea of throwing the enemy back to earth as a matter of fact when he wasn't mind controlled he stuck Darkseid into the source wall and throw Cyntonia into the sun and that is NOT FIGHTING WITH A MENTAL HANDICAP.

Fighting in charatcer does not involve having hallucinations and being mentally controlled If Superman was fighting in charatcer VS Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman will be roasting in the sun or stuck in the Source wall at least.

After We finish with this fight We still have other 10 fights to see

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You refer to Wonder Woman v2 #219, aka "Sacrifice".

Where Superman, thinking he is fighting against one of his toughest opponents, grabs said opponent roughly and relocates the fight to the sun. Where the opponent will likely experience some duress from the environment, even as Superman's own power is increased markedly by the increased yellow sunlight exposure.

I've told you the reasons why I doubt they were near the Sun. The burden of proof is on you to prove they did get close to the Sun. And Wonder Woman's statement of "He's going to take me to the Sun!!" isn't proof he did. It's simply proof of intention. Prove that they got there before Wonder Woman kneed him in the groin.

And Doomsday will likely "experience some duress from the environment?" If you think space or anything like that would bother him, no. If you mean he'd be at a mobility disadvantage, that is true. But, this will come back to bite you if that's what you mean.....

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If such is what you consider out of character, please be kind enough to post some scans for me from Superman/Batman #13, a magazine printed roughly one year earlier, if memory serves, where Superman gives Darkseid nearly exactly the same treatment (after Wonder Woman weakens Darkseid by reflecting his own Omega Beams back in his face).

In this case, Superman actually did seem to make it near the Sun, and kept the fight there. This is where the second possibility of what you meant by "experience duress from the environment" for Doomsday comes back to bite you. If Superman were fighting in-character in SACRIFICE, he wouldn't have done the idiotic move of sending what he thought to be a rampaging monster who can't fly(thus is at a mobility disadvantage in space) back to Earth. He cared about almost nothing but getting Doomsday to pay(definitely out of character) and it was tactically disadvantageous to bring a fight with Doomsday back to Earth.

But really, him fighting like an idiot due to the circumstances are what kept Diana from not getting killed.....twice. Sending Wonder Woman back to Earth instead of throwing her into the Sun like you're arguing he was trying to do, and not stomping her head while she was down. Despite her waking up from reentry heat, she was actually down for quite a few panels after she landed on Earth. And Superman was rambling barely coherently instead of finishing her off.

Also, prove that the Omega Beams weaken Darkseid. I doubt you'll even try though.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider


You refer to Wonder Woman v2 #219, aka "Sacrifice".

Where Superman, thinking he is fighting against one of his toughest opponents, grabs said opponent roughly and relocates the fight to the sun. Where the opponent will likely experience some duress from the environment, even as Superman's own power is increased markedly by the increased yellow sunlight exposure.

If such is what you consider out of character, please be kind enough to post some scans for me from Superman/Batman #13, a magazine printed roughly one year earlier, if memory serves, where Superman gives Darkseid nearly exactly the same treatment (after Wonder Woman weakens Darkseid by reflecting his own Omega Beams back in his face).



Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Out of the 11 canon fights, somehow I knew you will like to focus on this one ...



Well, it shouldn't exactly have taken a crystal ball to predict that ...


I am covering what is most familiar to me. As are you.



More than this:


1. The reflection of the Omega Beams I already alluded to in this thread as one of Wonder Woman's outside-of-her-own-magazine feats.



2. If you're listing Superman top-tier opponents, or Superman opponents in general that most people know, how many are going to come to mind?

Outside of Lex Luthor, there's Doomsday, Darkseid, and Braniac.

That's about it from what the average comic reader would know.



3. More than that, this is one of the fights that took place close to the Sacrifice battle. In fact, at the moment, I can't think of any major fight that occurred any closer to the Sacrifice battle THAN our Superman/Batman #13 engagement.




4. S/B 13 was the closing chapter of the first "Return of Supergirl" arc.
In fact, much of the action, albeit in altered form, was featured in one of DC major animated films.

---


Now as mentioned before, the battle DID start with Wonder Woman weakening Darkseid with his own Omega Beams:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859474
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859476
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859482


... but then continues much as described earlier in this thread, corroborating much of what you and I have said:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859483
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859489
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859493
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859506
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859539



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman/Batman #13, Volume 1
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Michael Turner
Date: October 2004
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman/Batman_Vol_1_13



Now, the question naturally arises, and too much courtesy has been paid me in the past with scans on request NOT to reciprocate with at least this much:

How do we know taking the Omega Beam deflection weakened Darkseid?

Well, BESIDES the fact that it is the Omega-Beam-struck area of his face that is smoldering with plasma marks after the S/B 13 sun battle, you can refer to an earlier battle where Darkseid ALSO got hit with his own Omega Beams:



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861797
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861799
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861800
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861802
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861805
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861807
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861809
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861810
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861811
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861814



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Action Comics #586, Volume 1
Writer/Penciller: John Byrne
Inker: Dick Giordano
Date: March 1987
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_586





My time is too limited on Sundays to answer more than this tonight, Salsa.

You would not believe how long it took me even to type this post and collate those links.

I'll get to some of the rest of your post tomorrow if time permits.




(Of course, there's nothing besides day or date markers to mark off time on these boards, and I may well get here BEFORE you tomorrow, and thus be the very next one to respond, but ...)

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
4. S/B 13 was the closing chapter of the first "Return of Supergirl" arc.
In fact, much of the action, albeit in altered form, was featured in one of DC major animated films.

---


Yes, because Supergirl being the one primarily fighting Darkseid and how the fight ended is very close to what actually happened in the comics. /sarcasm

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Now as mentioned before, the battle DID start with Wonder Woman weakening Darkseid with his own Omega Beams:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859474
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859476
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859482


... but then continues much as described earlier in this thread, corroborating much of what you and I have said:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859483
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859489
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859493
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859506
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859539



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman/Batman #13, Volume 1
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Michael Turner
Date: October 2004
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman/Batman_Vol_1_13



Now, the question naturally arises, and too much courtesy has been paid me in the past with scans on request NOT to reciprocate with at least this much:

How do we know taking the Omega Beam deflection weakened Darkseid?

Well, BESIDES the fact that it is the Omega-Beam-struck area of his face that is smoldering with plasma marks after the S/B 13 sun battle, you can refer to an earlier battle where Darkseid ALSO got hit with his own Omega Beams:



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861797
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861799
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861800
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861802
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861805
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861807
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861809
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861810
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861811
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861814



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Action Comics #586, Volume 1
Writer/Penciller: John Byrne
Inker: Dick Giordano
Date: March 1987
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_586





My time is too limited on Sundays to answer more than this tonight, Salsa.

You would not believe how long it took me even to type this post and collate those links.

I'll get to some of the rest of your post tomorrow if time permits.




(Of course, there's nothing besides day or date markers to mark off time on these boards, and I may well get here BEFORE you tomorrow, and thus be the very next one to respond, but ...)

What about this makes you think it weakens Darkseid? Being hit with it hurting him? Yes, it does show to hurt him. But you're saying "weaken" as if it actually lowers his strength and durability. What in the world are you basing this on? Your scans of him being hit then it's spent? It specifically says "spent" meaning, he's used it up for the moment. Even if one agrees with the weird conclusion that it ran-out because he was hit with them, that only applies to the Omega Force, not his own physical power. Since the very scans you posted have Darkseid saying that his body is strong enough to contain the energy. Basically, you're arguing him being hit with the energy weakens him, but not his body having the very energy INSIDE him. Which is just illogical.

Also, to throw another wrench in your argument, that scene was retconned as being Desaad posing as Darkseid. I had thought it was a rumor since people said it but never actually showed it, but your link to the Comicvine Superman Prime vs Darkseid thread actually had someone give an issue reference. And yep, it happened.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Captain%20Nazi%20exposure/Miscellaneous/NEW-GODS_V2_15-PG03.jpg

The retcon raises some problems, but it happened. And I'm curious of how you'll change your argument with it, considering the double standards you've used before when it comes to retcons vs what the author of the original scene intended.

Basically, for the TL;DR("Too Long; Didn't Read" version(even though it's only one modestly large paragraph and two small ones)

It doesn't make sense that his body can contain the energy of the Omega Beams without it weakening him, but he gets weakened by being hit by it. And, it was Desaad according to retcon.

Since Pr wanted people to get off the SACRIFICE topic derailment, I'll post it here, since it's is related to the reason why this thread was started. And I have a feeling Pr wouldn't have as much issue since the Superman boards aren't as active as the vs board.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What gets me is that you can say this only a week after one or more people from your side were temporarily banned for letting their emotions get the better of them.

Then again, you're championing a guy who claimed, on the previous page of this thread, that Diana failed to so much as turn Clark's head with her punches.

Of course, that MIGHT be true, as the only true punch I saw thrown by Diana to Clark's head is the following, and it's arguable there's not a lot of rotation of head involved here ...

Link to your scan--

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=15308790

You left out quite a bit of context. Like how on the previous two pages, she had snuck up on him and bashed her bracelets into his ears.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/WonderWoman/WW_V2_219/WW_V2_219-PG12.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/WonderWoman/WW_V2_219/WW_V2_219-PG13.jpg

In fact, see the blood splattering out in the first panel of the second scan? Seems she ruptured his ear drums. Even if not, striking the ears like that is disorienting, due to your inner ear being your sense of balance. And the ears are simply a vulnerable spot, period. Boxing the ears hurts with relatively little force.

What happened after? She kicks his head and kicks an area on the inner-thigh that's a nerve cluster(regardless of it being stated or not in the comic, it is). THEN we have the him getting knocked down in your cropped scan.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/WonderWoman/WW_V2_219/WW_V2_219-PG14.jpg

So, we have Superman already in pain and disorientation, likely suffering vertigo with burst ear drums, getting kicked in the head, his leg probably effected by a nerve cluster being struck, and THEN knocked down with a punch.

I want to be as complete as possible, Salsa, so, except where it makes sense to put it off for a better time, I'll finish responses to you, as I've been doing, more or less in order.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


I honestly don't know how is it that you are disagreeing that is easier to follow a character with few apparitions than a character with lots of apparitions, but lets keep going ...


Alright, by the numbers:

1. The word you want is "appearances" not "apparitions". The second word is a rough translation of "ghosts". Just a courtesy ESL note this; I understand what you meant in context here just fine.

2. What I'm quoting from you above is slightly and importantly different from the context of what we have and had actually been talking about. Which was summed up much better with your

"building a case against a character who only appears once a month way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month"

... than what you're quoted as saying above.


However, this will best be made clearer as the thread goes on, so ...

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I never said nor imply that own tittles are primary or most valid, but since you are touching the subject lets see, what happens to Superman in order to favor or make the other characters shine.

Superman has his good and also great feats on JLA Tittles, He held a black hole on his hand, one shotted casually primaid and a bunch of others, though on his own titles he has those type of feats too, cooling down a white dwarf star, one shotting imperiex probes and a bunch of others.

While Superman performs really good on his titles, he is often excluded, dumbed down or made to look less formidable on the JLA comics in order to make the other characters shine a little bit, clear example is Grant Morrison's bat God, but is not only exclusive of Batman, they also have to make the other members of the team relevant, we are not reading PC comics anymore in which JLA members were basically useless and WW was serving coffee. so they decide to make the other team members relevant often at expense of Superman, but you know why? because an enemy that can take Superman is a dangerous enemy to defeat the whole league. A character that can defeat WW does not sound as fearsome as a character that can defeat Superman TBH

While WW and others benefit from this post crisis DC mentality, Superman has to take a secondary role in order to let the others shine.

This also reminded me, How DC often leaves Superman out of the company crossovers.

So is funny you mention those feats for WW because they actually sacrifice Superman in order to give her those feats, that she REGULARLY does not get on her own book.
At least Superman has plenty to get from his books and once in a while he gets a worthy feat out of JLA comic books with out sacrificing other characters.

I acknowledge that you believe what you are saying is true, and doubtless so do many others.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


A league of one:
Wonder Woman concedes that she cannot defeat Superman even after she sucker punched him, Superman handles her easily

Winner: Superman


Diana had, to that point, beaten each individual member of the Justice League, had command of the JLA Tower, and possessed Kyle's Green Lantern Ring.

I believe her statement to roughly the same degree that I believe Darkseid couldn't transport Superman to the red star of his choice if he ever deemed it truly necessary.


Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Action Comics 600:
Not a real fight as both are trying to deceive the enemy

Winner: none


Okay.


Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Adventures of Superman 642:
A mind controlled Superman scuffles WW, scuffle is too brief, mind controlled Superman gets away

Winner: none
Superman had a mind controlled handicap


He got away by smashing a hole in the space station, forcing Diana to seal the breach to save Batman's life, yes. Described as "tactically brilliant" by Martian Manhunter, incidentally.



Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Final Crisis
Superman one shots a mind controlled Wonder Woman as a result of an attack that was not even directed at her

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman fell down defeated at an attack that was not even directed at her



Interesting. Sounds a lot like the following:

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

JLA77
"Mind controlled" Wonder Woman scuffles Superman with the help of a "mind controlled" Firestorm, both fail at restraining Superman, Superman defuses the Mnemon sucessfully

Winner Superman
Wonder Woman had a mind controlled handicap
Wonder Woman had help from a mind controlled Firestorm



This should probably be posted. Wonder Woman isn't mind controlled; she's had her memories of Superman stripped away by Mnemon, as has Firestorm.

Not sure "failing at restraining Superman" is all that accurate, either.
What Superman manages to do, held in a headlock by Wonder Woman, is to use his heat vision to trigger a playback device inside Mnemon that somehow causes it to "release" the stolen memories of the JLA back to their owners.

I must say, while on the subject, the JLA writers do an awesome job of portraying how truly dangerous this device can be and why. I have respect for whoever thought this story up.


Originally posted by Rao Kal El


JLA96
Mind controlled Superman fights Wonder Woman, Superman snaps briefly out of the mind control and Diana knocks briefly Superman, which allows Diana to attack the crucifier, A mind controlled Superman then knocks Wonder Woman which allow crucifier to almost kill Wonder Woman

Winner: None
Superman had a mind controlled handicap but some help in the end from crucifier to kill Wonder Woman although Diana HAD help from Superman constantly fighting the mind control

Advantage: Superman








You can write something like this and call ME "biased"?

Do you remember exactly how that scene actually played out?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Well, it shouldn't exactly have taken a crystal ball to predict that ...


I am covering what is most familiar to me. As are you.

Speak for yourself. I am familiar with ALL their fighs. I knew you will choose this one because is the WW fan flagship feat. I understand Everybody wants to meassure to Superman.






Originally posted by bluewaterrider
1. The reflection of the Omega Beams I already alluded to in this thread as one of Wonder Woman's outside-of-her-own-magazine feats.

It sounds more like fluke or something she does not regularly performs although I believe her bracers will be able to do that after all it seems her bracers are more resistant then her


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
2. If you're listing Superman top-tier opponents, or Superman opponents in general that most people know, how many are going to come to mind?

Outside of Lex Luthor, there's Doomsday, Darkseid, and Braniac.

That's about it from what the average comic reader would know.

I don't see how the generally known enemies of Superman relate to this particular fight with Darkseid, but...

It shows you haven't read many Superman comics and it proves my point, there is Zod, Mr Myx, Cyborg Superman, Erradicator, Gog, Imperex, Lobo, Mogul, Superboy Prime and Ultraman just to name a few MOST OF THEM are generally known



Originally posted by bluewaterrider
3. More than that, this is one of the fights that took place close to the Sacrifice battle. In fact, at the moment, I can't think of any major fight that occurred any closer to the Sacrifice battle THAN our Superman/Batman #13 engagement.

Well there is also the fight in Superman/Batman #15, which happened 2 months after Superman/Batman #13, in which Superman easily killed Wonder Woman, don't conviniently forget that




Originally posted by bluewaterrider
4. S/B 13 was the closing chapter of the first "Return of Supergirl" arc.
In fact, much of the action, albeit in altered form, was featured in one of DC major animated films.

Very altered, anyhow

---


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Now as mentioned before, the battle DID start with Wonder Woman weakening Darkseid with his own Omega Beams:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859474
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859476
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859482

I do not know why are you bringing Darkseid on "reading Superman comics" which was mainly focused on how We Superman readers are generally more well informed than say WW readers, I thought distracting ourselves with the WW fights was enough out of topic, to start bringing Darkseid into the fray, but since you are going there I will like to see examples of WW facing Darkseid by herself.

In any case the last scan is pure gold, did you noticed how Superman tossed Wonder Woman like a rag doll?

Also you have to prove that the Omega Beams WEAKEN Darkseid, I will believe it hurt him, but like it was mentioned before Darkseid is a vessel for that force, having the omega force in his body will weaken him IF what you said is true plus that it will be ilogical. Also there is no statement about it and if you want to use that old Byrne scan, be aware that it has been retconned of course you will know this IF you were reading more tittles than the casual reader.


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
... but then continues much as described earlier in this thread, corroborating much of what you and I have said:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859483
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859489
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859493
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859506
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13859539



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman/Batman #13, Volume 1
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Michael Turner
Date: October 2004
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman/Batman_Vol_1_13

Meh! I have no problem with a multiversal god being more powerful than Superman, not physically stronger or durable on his avatar form though, I really don't see the point on this



Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Now, the question naturally arises, and too much courtesy has been paid me in the past with scans on request NOT to reciprocate with at least this much:

How do we know taking the Omega Beam deflection weakened Darkseid?

Well, BESIDES the fact that it is the Omega-Beam-struck area of his face that is smoldering with plasma marks after the S/B 13 sun battle, you can refer to an earlier battle where Darkseid ALSO got hit with his own Omega Beams:

That is a conclusion that is based on nothing, YOU THINK DS is weaken yet there is no narration indicating that and you base your conclusion on an event that has been retconed.

If you are going to keep with this line of reasoning you have to provide EVIDENCE that Darkseid strenght and invulnerability get lowered everytime he gets hits with the Omega Beams, other wise your claim has no basis and is just wishful thinking



Originally posted by bluewaterrider
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861797
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861799
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861800
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861802
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861805
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861807
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861809
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861810
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861811
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13861814



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Action Comics #586, Volume 1
Writer/Penciller: John Byrne
Inker: Dick Giordano
Date: March 1987
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_586

This no longer applies to DARKSEID, so it is irrelevant



Originally posted by bluewaterrider
My time is too limited on Sundays to answer more than this tonight, Salsa.

You would not believe how long it took me even to type this post and collate those links.

I'll get to some of the rest of your post tomorrow if time permits.




(Of course, there's nothing besides day or date markers to mark off time on these boards, and I may well get here BEFORE you tomorrow, and thus be the very next one to respond, but ...)

OK

ALSO, I NOTICED YOU ARE RESPONDING NOW, SO I WILL WAIT

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


Man of Tomorrow 13
A crazed Superman fights the JLA and the Superman family, Wonder Woman was barely able to restrain Superman's right arm, Superman was 100% charged, not amped like many believe, when Superman is amped he starts emitting plasma.

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA



There's a couple problems here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1. KMC fights are under standard Earth conditions.
Under standard conditions, Superman is only some percent as powerful as he is after he's spent some time directly near, (or even in) the Sun.

Maybe it's 80%, maybe it's 90%. Maybe it's less. Maybe it's more.
Who knows?

Whatever the case is, Superman in Man of Tomorrow #13 is NOT at the level we normally consider for versus fights. Superman even TELLS us this in the story via his thought balloons, when, after Kyle manufactures green kryptonite with his ring, he thinks to himself that the only reason he survived was that he had spent so much time near the sun (disposing of Earth's nuclear weapons).

Whatever the case, if we consider Superman as he normally is on Earth to be our 100% standard, then Superman in Man of Tomorrow #13 is 100%+ whatever the nuclear disposal sun exposure granted him.

2. You're assuming that "amping" is an all or nothing affair.
Presumably you're taking "amping" to be the so-called "sundipped" state of Superman as he appears at the end of Our Worlds at War.

Doubtless in that extreme case he appears as you allude to above and earlier in this thread. However, nothing suggests there are not states above his normal Earth levels and below full blown "Our Worlds at War" amping, and, in fact, most sources suggest quite the opposite.

Superman/Batman #13 discussed earlier for instance, features Superman apparently breaking Darkseid's arm once he has fought him for some time near the sun. Is this something Superman can do normally? Is it something he was ever able to do before that point? Looking at that thread I linked you to earlier, quite the opposite is the case, with Darkseid slapping Superman around rather commandingly as he suggests wearing the Aegis armor to combat Imperiex.

Is he glowing with plasma as he hands the pain to Darkseid in SB13, however?



Originally posted by Rao Kal El


Action Comics 753
Same crazed Superman faces the JLA, Wonder Woman try to restrain Superman's left arm she was unable to do so. Superman then faces the whole league

Winner: Superman
Wonder Woman had aid from the JLA


I don't recall seeing this episode. It would be appreciated if you posted some scenes from it. If it's the "same crazed Superman" as fights the JLA in MOT13, however, I'd expect what I said above to hold.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


Superman for tomorrow
Superman casually fights Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman looks like a child trying to fight an adult

Winner: Superman




For Tomorrow has Superman determined to use a device dubbed, IIRC, "The Vanishing" which Wonder Woman believes will result in his death.
She is so determined to stop him that she picks up that magic blade from Halcyon, which apparently can cut anything and anyone.

However, Superman calls her bluff. Diana is not willing to go all the way in battle. The blade is a killing weapon, and killing Superman is the absolute LAST thing she wants to do. She came there to save him, and doesn't know what to do when he makes it clear he's ready to die for the use of that device, which might restore his loved ones, the people that make life worth living for Superman to begin with.




Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Wonder Woman 175
A mind controlled brute Superman fights Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman manages to restrain Superman with the lasso, not after she gets bloody and ends up in really bad shape, while Superman is not even bleeding

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap


Unmentioned here is that Superman had been changed by Circe into a monster that appeared to be half-Doomsday. And that apparently every other man changed by Circe in this series got significant observable physical upgrades, including Lex Luthor, who became a giant Spiderlike being with webs capable of ensnaring the Cheetah who earlier WRECKED Superman in battle.



Originally posted by Rao Kal El


Wonder Woman 219
A mind controlled Superman fights Diana, Superman almost killed Diana with in the first two minutes of the fight, but since he was mind controlled he decides to make Wonder Woman/Doomsday suffer, eventually Diana is able to pull the win

Winner: Wonder Woman
Superman had the mind controlled handicap


Rucka made it abundantly clear in an interview corroborated by Pr as legit that EVERY governor for Clark was off, that he was going to kill Doomsday, period.

What you're talking about is an issue produced after the fight and Superman's commentary about the fight after the fact. Very little from Wonder Woman 219 itself supports the idea that he decided it a good idea to consciously prolong the fight.


Originally posted by Rao Kal El


Debatable canon stories

Adventures of Superman 494
Superman kills Wonder Woman on an alternative future

Winner: Superman



I'm not sure I've seen this one.



Originally posted by Rao Kal El



Superman/Batman 15 this is canon for Superman and apparently for WW too
An enraged Superman makes a short work of Diana and kills her

Winner: Superman


With a blistering ambush and then a choke from behind with her own lasso. But according to the Countdown 52 comics such was used even by Donna Troy to kill Diana, if we're talking alternate realities.




Originally posted by Rao Kal El


WW last comics pre flash point
There is another story on WW comics in which she is amped and gets a magical sword and she kills Superman. This happened in a Dream that is supposed to become true

Winner: Wonder Woman
Wonder Woman was amped


Did she have plasma coming from her eyes?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Speak for yourself. I am familiar with ALL their fights. I knew you will choose this one because is the WW fan flagship feat. I understand Everybody wants to measure to Superman.



I think you and I mistook what the other was talking about.
I was referring to the Superman/Batman #13 fight against Darkseid when I responded with the "Crystal Ball" comment, not Sacrifice.


Mind you, I am more than happy to discuss just about any aspect of Sacrifice (Wonder Woman volume 2 #219) that you want in this thread.

I just wasn't referring to it THERE.



Originally posted by Rao Kal El


It sounds more like fluke or something she does not regularly performs although I believe her bracers will be able to do that after all it seems her bracers are more resistant then her




No offense, but, if you think Wonder Woman reflecting crap like that is a fluke, how many Wonder Woman comics have you actually READ?
Consider Googling "Wonder Woman" and "deflection" or "bracers" if you have the time.




Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I don't see how the generally known enemies of Superman relate to this particular fight with Darkseid, but...

It shows you haven't read many Superman comics and it proves my point, there is Zod, Mr Myx, Cyborg Superman, Eradicator, Gog, Imperiex, Lobo, Mogul, Superboy Prime and Ultraman just to name a few MOST OF THEM are generally known


I'd be impressed if even half the participants on KMC's comic forums know who or what an Eradicator is.

And I'm familiar with most of the names on the list, but stop and think for a moment. I was talking about Superman charging and increasing his power before battling via increased sun exposure.

How would that help him against Ultraman? If anything, he'd want to keep Ultraman (depending on the incarnation) OUT of the sun, and think of another way to take the wind out of his sails.

Superboy Prime? Neutralizing the solar energy in that boy is priority #1 in most engagements. There's a REASON the heroes tried to fight him at night before the sun came up, after all.

Mogul? Superman moved one of their fights down to the tropics precisely so that he COULD get more sun and an increase in power to fight Mogul.
He made a point of saying that.

Taking Zod to the sun is just asking for punishment. Superman would have a better chance taking him to task on Earth and hoping his own solar reserves would permit him to outlast Zod.

Mxy is magic and would likely remain as unimpressed with sun-amped Superman as he is with regular-state Superman.

And Superman DID charge and increase his power to deal with Imperiex, something you yourself have alluded to though not posted visually in this thread several times now.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Well there is also the fight in Superman/Batman #15, which happened 2 months after Superman/Batman #13, in which Superman easily killed Wonder Woman, don't conveniently forget that


No forgetting necessary. I don't own that book.
The only reason I started reading Superman/Batman was because Jeph Loeb re-introduced Kara Zor-el (i.e. Supergirl) in one of it's early arcs.
For the most part, if she's not in a Superman/Batman book, I don't own it.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I do not know why are you bringing Darkseid on "reading Superman comics" which was mainly focused on how We Superman readers are generally more well informed than say WW readers, I thought distracting ourselves with the WW fights was enough out of topic, to start bringing Darkseid into the fray, but since you are going there I will like to see examples of WW facing Darkseid by herself.

In any case the last scan is pure gold, did you noticed how Superman tossed Wonder Woman like a rag doll?

Also you have to prove that the Omega Beams WEAKEN Darkseid, I will believe it hurt him, but like it was mentioned before Darkseid is a vessel for that force, having the omega force in his body will weaken him IF what you said is true plus that it will be ilogical. Also there is no statement about it and if you want to use that old Byrne scan, be aware that it has been retconned of course you will know this IF you were reading more tittles than the casual reader.

... I have no problem with a multiversal god being more powerful than Superman, not physically stronger or durable on his avatar form though, I really don't see the point on this

That is a conclusion that is based on nothing, YOU THINK DS is weaken yet there is no narration indicating that and you base your conclusion on an event that has been retconned.

If you are going to keep with this line of reasoning you have to provide EVIDENCE that Darkseid strength and invulnerability get lowered everytime he gets hits with the Omega Beams, other wise your claim has no basis and is just wishful thinking

This no longer applies to DARKSEID, so it is irrelevant


I'm not sure how in the world you'd consider Wonder Woman fights to be off topic in a thread which you yourself say is concerned with determining how well-informed Superman readers are concerning her versus how well Wonder Woman fans are regarding him.

But with Darkseid, I already explained that her deflection of his beams to aid Superman in his SB13 fight with Darkseid, was a feat that does NOT appear in her own title, where encounters with Darkseid are VERY rare indeed. It's also an unexpected proof that widely read Superman fans are likely not very familiar with what Diana can and cannot do. The fact that you can call the deflection of Omega Beams a "fluke" when Wonder Woman has a feat or two of deflecting the power of members of her Greek Pantheon COMBINING their power in united blasts illustrates this quite well.

As for proving Darkseid is weakened after telling us his Omega Force is spent, his face smouldering, his words coming out haltingly and slowly, trying a different tack and then declaring himself beaten after a few blows to Orion, peer of Superman, with whom Darkseid himself has had lengthy fight engagements, well, no I don't have to prove that.

You are welcome to your opinion. I do not share it.

By the way, if your premise were true, if a metahuman body "logically" could not be weakened by a force it generates, Kryptonians should not be able to hurt each other with their heat vision. As it is, they can and do.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

As for proving Darkseid is weakened after telling us his Omega Force is spent, his face smouldering, his words coming out haltingly and slowly, trying a different tack and then declaring himself beaten after a few blows to Orion, peer of Superman, with whom Darkseid himself has had lengthy fight engagements, well, no I don't have to prove that.

You are welcome to your opinion. I do not share it.

By the way, if your premise were true, if a metahuman body "logically" could not be weakened by a force it generates, Kryptonians should not be able to hurt each other with their heat vision. As it is, they can and do.

This is a total red herring. Rao made it clear that he agrees the Omega Beams can hurt Darkseid, yet you argue it actually reduces his strength and durability. Rao's point is it's illogical for his body to contain energy that weakens him. A better analogy with Kryptonians would be red solar energy, not their heat vision.

A better analogy would be, I can hurt you by punching you in the nose and busting it open. But will it have the same effect as a flu that takes such a toll on your body, you're exhausted from getting out of bed? No, no it will not. The Omega Beams hitting Darkseid are the punch in the nose. You're trying to argue they're the flu, by the contradictory argument of a scene, which had been retconned(something you're very, very selective about counting) as Desaad posing as Darkseid, of the Omega Force being spent after being hit with the Omega Beams. By that bassackwards logic, if the Omega Force weakens him, and he's spent it, he should be stronger.

Also, for all your arguments of Darkseid gets weakened by the Omega Beams is why Superman beats him, what about this?

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Darkseid/S-B42/SUPERMAN-BATMAN42-PG17.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Darkseid/S-B42/SUPERMAN-BATMAN42-PG18.jpg

Superman has Darkseid on his knees in 3 punches. And has Darkseid teleporting away when threatening to put him back on The Source Wall.

What is your counter argument to that fight? Think carefully. I know your most likely kneejerk response counter argument, is actually something that will come to haunt you.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


First of all 100% sun charge is PEAK CONDITION, Not a power increase, He is fighting at a 100% power level, if you want to claim that Superman is somewhat amplified from that solar exposure, then you will have to show Superman emitting plasma, displaying new powers or his body will be getting unusually big, none of those happened on the book. So if you claim he is getting and extra boost or an amp the burden of proof is on you. He is only at Peak suncharge if any, like I said he is not emitting plasma, nor developing new powers and his body is not abnormally big, so he is not amped, just 100% sun charged





I already covered the argument that suncharged is merely 100%.
Compared to the way Superman normally is on Earth, it's not.
For the sake of argument, the best I can do if you really wanted to go that way, is say that Superman is normally some percentage lower than 100% under ordinary conditions.


But this other part you're claiming can't be agreed to just for the sake of argument. "ave to show Superman emitting plasma, displaying new powers or his body will be getting unusually big"?

That's simply not true.

And here's where I don't think supercomprehensive knowledge of all things Superman is a relevant factor. Some things, Superman is bound to in general principle. For instance his superspeed and flight are granted to him, NOT because people choose to call him "Superman", but because DC has decided that he is (was) a post-Crisis-on-Infinite-Earths Kryptonian.

With residents of the former planet Krypton gaining such incredible power from exposure to yellow sun, largely in proportion to the amount of sun they receive.

Generally speaking, more sun= more power.

Enter Supergirl.

Note that, like Superman, she, too, is a descendant of Rao, Kryptonian DC Sun God. So any argument that Superman is special because of that is negated. Similarly, arguments that Superman "holds back" won't hold here. In Sacrifice, Greg Rucka tells us himself every governor with Superman is off. With SB13, Superman is deliberately tricking himself with the thought that Darkseid actually killed Kara with that first fired Omega Blast.

Does more sun=more power for her?

This really better not have turned in to a VS thread.

The case holds. More sun. More power.

Proof is that Supergirl flies not only far faster, but far further than she intends and has trouble braking.

She feels tingly as if she has a sunburn.


But she does not get bigger. She does not radiate weird energies.

And she does not demonstrate any new powers.


Amping is not an all or nothing affair.
There are degrees to it.

For Kryptonians, including Superman, more sun generally equals more power. And there are different ways to portray it.



Source: The Brave and the Bold, first arc, "The Book of Destiny"
Writer: Mark Waid

^ @Delta

Yes I noticed the red herring but thanks to pointing it out for anyone who might have not seeing it.

@Bluewater

I will reply tomorrow as time allows it, but before that I will like to point another fallacy of yours

Delta's points have been I think excellent regarding this topic yet you have not engaged him for whatever reason that might be.

But ignoring good points just because you don't like the debating style of person X is called "style over substance fallacy"

Also while I know you like Naijaboy's debating style could you please tone down the ad verbosium?

I will reply later on today if time allows it

Originally posted by -Pr-
This really better not have turned in to a VS thread.

It started as something else but the points and the math proven to the opposition hasn't been acknowledge and somehow it has diverted as a Supeman vs WW

Apparently Blue has a point to make after we discuss alll the ww fights and ds fights vs superman onto why reading 2 comic titles is harder than reading 7 titles

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


Delta's points have been I think excellent regarding this topic yet you have not engaged him for whatever reason that might be.

But ignoring good points just because you don't like the debating style of person X is called "style over substance fallacy"



I'm a little surprised to see a post like this from you.
I explained already why I would not be engaging him in this thread on page 2 and you acknowledged as much and said "Ok" in response:


Originally posted by bluewaterrider


I'm likely going to limit my responses to you alone in this thread. Don't need any distractions or hard feelings, and you, virtually alone of the Superman fans I've interacted with here over the years, I feel I can trust to be civil. I'm also certain I can trust you to present anything that needs presenting for response for useful conversation.

Or re-presenting as the case may be.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El


OK





If you feel there is something that needs addressing, put it in a post in your own words as your own argument.



Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Also while I know you like Naijaboy's debating style could you please tone down the ad verbosium?



I honestly do not know what you mean by this phrase or what I've done that you're objecting to. Spell it out and I'll do my best to amend things or try a different approach.

But I really have no idea what you're talking about.




Originally posted by Rao Kal El


I will reply later on today if time allows it

Thank you for your time.

Actually let me correct that out

The WW topic was brought because a person who I believe uses arguments of ignorance said that historically WW has been shown to be equal to superman and that superman has never dominated ww

So I cited all their fights just to prove that an argument that is based only on 15% of their comic history is a flawed argument because they ignore the other 85% mainly because they haven't read as many comics as a superman reader

Originally posted by -Pr-
This really better not have turned in to a VS thread.

After a page of posts from Blue, it's hard to tell what a topic has turned into!!

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
It started as something else but the points and the math proven to the opposition hasn't been acknowledge and somehow it has diverted as a Supeman vs WW

Apparently Blue has a point to make after we discuss all the ww fights and ds fights vs superman onto why reading 2 comic titles is harder than reading 7 titles





Am I missing something here? Was it ME who brought up the 10 or 11 fights you said Wonder Woman and Superman have had between themselves or yourself? Did you list them to be ignored, or did you want a response?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

the points and the math proven to the opposition hasn't been acknowledge and somehow it has diverted as a Superman vs WW


What exactly have I failed to acknowledge or respond to that you've presented so far?

@ blue

Yes I recognize I said OK at you not answering other post. However I thought Deltas points were relevant to our conversation.

However it seems it is not the case anymore as Pr might be looking at this thread as a vs thread.

So it will be better to stick to the original post and leave the vs part for some other time or place

However if you want to discuss the vs part of it, I will gladly do ot in the proper thread.

Maybe we can make a threas called Supeman/Wonder Woman post crisis fights

It was me who brought the 10 fights not bluewater

I apologize for the confusion

And this I believe wasn't answered

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I honestly don't know how is it that you are disagreeing that is easier to follow a character with few apparitions than a charatcer with lots of apparitions, but lets keep going.




I will put this in percentages. Superman appeared on 7 publications:

Superman, Action Comics, Adventures of Superman, Man of Steel, Man of Tomorrow, JLA and Superman/Batman

If you read all of those comics that means you read 99% of Superman comics regulaly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Superman comics.

Wonder Woman appeared on 2 publications:

Wonder Woman and JLA

If you read all those comics that means you read 99% of Wonder Woman comics regularly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Wonder Woman comics.

BUT Lets inverse the roles here

The Superman fan since he reads JLA titles too he is versed on 49.5% of Wonder Woman appearances
The Wonder Woman fan since he reads JLA tittles too he is versed on 14% of Superman appearances

So the Superman fan has a 99% knowledge of Superman and a 49.5% knowledge of Wonder Woman
The Wonder Woman fan has a 99% knowledge of Wonder Woman and a 14% knowledge of Superman

Who do you think should know more?

The answer is not even debatable, the Superman fan has and advantage of knowledge of Superman of 85% and he is versed 50% on Wonder Woman.

The only way this will change, is if The WW fan will take sometime and inform himself on Superman comics before constructing arguments of ignorance or ill informed or at least he can't lets us know that he is ill informed on Superman. The same applies to the Superman fan, but he is at least better informed on the WW topic.

As for the gear of WW, I think is good that people like you who follow WW inform everybody of those details and btw I never thought that the sword shown on tomorrow is part of her standard gear. I know that because I read Superman comics and JLA comics.



I think you are wrong just by the simple percentages I showed you above, Reading JLA gives us access to 49% of characters like Aquaman, WW, MMH, Flash while WW readers only access 14% of characters like Superman or Batman.

btw I used to read a lot of all the Superman, Batman, Hulk, Punisher and Spiderman tittles backed up by JLA, Xmen classic and Avengers so that gives you a general idea.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Diana had, to that point, beaten each individual member of the Justice League, had command of the JLA Tower, and possessed Kyle's Green Lantern Ring.




Ah, the old "she didn't really mean it" excuse. LMAO. Funny how WW fans use that lame excuse when at the same time they're always more than happy to bring up the time when she said to Clark "I'm faster than you" (LOL). So they believe what she says only when it supports their view of her being Superman's "peer". So typical.

Salsa, I answered much of what you presented on previous pages.

But you're thinking somehow I didn't.


Perhaps providing still fuller context is the key? There WERE statements missed that perhaps should have been included to open this thread.
Also, no one will ever know where to find the thread we're referring to without a link or URL address in the future.

Perhaps we can correct those mistake now by providing both ...


Originally posted by Rao Kal El
It is always the usual posters who think they know everything about Superman when clearly they don't most of the times they create arguments of ignorance and when that does not work they just completely ignore evidence or nitpick at feats and or keep moving the goal post.

People who know about Superman have read a lot of comics I mean Superman is one of the most published characters in comics. There is a reason why they think Superman could do this or that.

The detractors eh... Not so much. They are not superman experts, they might have their opinions and they are entitled to it. But 99% of the time they are wrong, because they form an argument based on ignorance and if that does not work they nitpick or ignore evidence.

Also Juntai said It best. Fighting mind controlled does not even fall under the forum rules so the detractors should drop their flawed argument once and for all.


Originally posted by bluewaterrider
One thing about this most recent post of yours, Salsa.

It holds nearly equally true if, wherever you have the word "Superman", you substitute "Wonder Woman".



Originally posted by Rao Kal El
"Nearly equally" is a tad too much.

It is easier to follow/read the adventures of a hero who appears only once a month on a comic ( maybe twice if he/she is popular) than to follow and read all the feats and adventures of heroes like Superman, Batman or Spiderman.

I mean this heroes appear in 5 or 6 comics a month regularly.
Superman on the 90's IIRC was on 7 comics a month with out counting guest appearances.

Fans of Superman can barely keep track of all his adventures when they read ALL of his publications

We have those guys who read a lot of superman telling us what he might or might no be able to do.

Then we have the detractors who apparently only read superman scans posted on sites like this one and try to make and argument based on ignorance. (I remember one time I had a person saying that red sun radiation hurts kryptonians imagine his surprise when he found out that kryptonians used to live under a red sun but the things people will say in order to defend their argument of ignorance is amusing)

I believe that reading or being informed on a character that only appears once a month a comic is way easier than to keep track of Superman, batman or spiderman.

The sacrifice fight does not fall under the rules of the forum. He is being mind controlled and not at the best of his capabilities. So that argument should not even being used here and WW is not even on this thread.

I guess you will agree that following the feats of WW it will be easier than following the feats of Superman or Batman so "nearly equally" is a tad bit to exaggerated by a rate of 6/2

With the amount of comics it will take you to follow all the stories of superman, batman or Spiderman in a month you could read thor, silver surfer, hulk, avengers , wonder woman and still have a book to spare.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=522650&pagenumber=18

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Superman for tomorrow
Superman casually fights Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman looks like a child trying to fight an adult

Winner: Superman



"For Tomorrow" is about as much a fight as the following scene, for reasons I mentioned earlier.

If you like seeing people getting tossed, though, this is your lucky day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5nUsa8ZLm4
2 min 42 sec

For completeness' sake, I'll provide the following. Thinking I have about 2 more posts. Three, possibly, although that'll probably depend on if my computer is acting right.


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849443
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849445
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849446

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849450
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849454
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849457
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13849465


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superman, the Man of Tomorrow #13, Volume 1
Writer: Louise Simonson
Penciller: Paul Ryan
Date: Spring 1999
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman:_Man_of_Tomorrow_Vol_1_13

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There are things implied by certain statements which are present even if you don't intend them. Proof of this? The 2 statements typed by Riv6672 in this thread on the first page. It was strongly enough implied that, without acknowledging much of anything of the specific thread discussion we'd had before, HE felt the need to address that argument.

The implication cannot be avoided Salsa. Whether you intended it or not, a good discussion MUST necessarily deal with this idea.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El



Do I have to repeat myself?

No, having more comics does not give you an autowin

I hope that is clear now




That is clear now.

Even so, it needed to be said.


I feel the need to illustrate that there are often messages behind messages NOT stated directly, though.

That part you don't seem to get.

I'll be interested to see if this can do the trick; experience has shown me native born American English speakers get this; foreign students in general do not:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4jQ2YXiMDA

(The above is the URL to a 30 second Yao Ming Visa Commercial -- Illustration of Paralanguage and that communication is NOT based solely on the written or spoken word in visual media)

Tying up loose ends, since I originally intended to address everything you'd brought up in this thread:


Originally posted by ODG

Maxwell's mental powers caused Superman to see and react to situations "strategic," sometimes "brilliant," despite being made to see different things at different times:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Sacrifice01%20AoS%20642.jpg

I believe in testing out theories.

Let me preface with saying that, in place of "99%" I would substitute "most" for greater accuracy. There's other language I would not use here of course, but let's proceed all the same.

Salsa, if what you're saying is correct, you should have mighty disagreements with the following.

See if you do.

Put it in to words. I think you're more likely to see my point once we get this removed from the level of pure abstraction and start looking at what the other is saying in proper context:



It is always the usual posters who think they know everything about Wonder Woman when clearly they don't most of the times they create arguments of ignorance and when that does not work they just completely ignore evidence or nitpick at feats and or keep moving the goal post.

People who know about Wonder Woman have read a lot of comics I mean Wonder Woman is one of the most published characters in comics. There is a reason why they think Wonder Woman could do this or that.

The detractors eh... Not so much. They are not Wonder Woman experts, they might have their opinions and they are entitled to it. But 99% of the time they are wrong, because they form an argument based on ignorance and if that does not work they nitpick or ignore evidence.

Yeah, this is exactly what I was afraid of... This isn't a forum for vs threads, so kindly get back on topic, or i'm closing this.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, this is exactly what I was afraid of... This isn't a forum for vs threads, so kindly get back on topic, or i'm closing this.

Im going to close you

You seemed unaware before now, or at least wrote as if you were:

-- Wonder Woman's greatest feats are in other titles, not her own

-- extra publications don't automatically grant feats relevant to specific KMC discussions. Grant Morrison's Action Comics wouldn't give crap useful to a proposed Superman versus Silver Surfer matchup, for instance.

-- discussion is pointless if the mindset is "he who has the most feats automatically wins" without regard for anything else

-- Superman fans seem to forget basic knowledge of how their character and his powers work when acknowledging such would hurt their position
Good case in point are the basic Kryptonian yellow sun powers.
More sun, more power. Increases in strength, speed, damage soak, durability, healing factor, etcetera as a general rule.
Then they can look at something like the following and not understand why people will not accept this as him at standard Earth-based power levels ...

I think, with the exception of answering fully your allusion to historical treatment and sacrificing one character's full potential for the sake of others, I've responded to everything you've written, Salsa.

On the note for the above, of course, I would point out that Wonder Woman, arguably FAR more than Superman, usually gets passed over for the memorable feats that people love to put in respect threads. Historically, taking a wider view in terms of scope of years than yours, Diana DID have a place in her comics similar to the one Superman traditionally has been held to have had in his.

If I've missed covering any question or major point you've presented to the present at this point, let me know.

I am still waiting for a response to this post

This basically puts it whith numbers my originla point


Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I honestly don't know how is it that you are disagreeing that is easier to follow a character with few apparitions than a charatcer with lots of apparitions, but lets keep going.




I will put this in percentages. Superman appeared on 7 publications:

Superman, Action Comics, Adventures of Superman, Man of Steel, Man of Tomorrow, JLA and Superman/Batman

If you read all of those comics that means you read 99% of Superman comics regulaly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Superman comics.

Wonder Woman appeared on 2 publications:

Wonder Woman and JLA

If you read all those comics that means you read 99% of Wonder Woman comics regularly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Wonder Woman comics.

BUT Lets inverse the roles here

The Superman fan since he reads JLA titles too he is versed on 49.5% of Wonder Woman appearances
The Wonder Woman fan since he reads JLA tittles too he is versed on 14% of Superman appearances

So the Superman fan has a 99% knowledge of Superman and a 49.5% knowledge of Wonder Woman
The Wonder Woman fan has a 99% knowledge of Wonder Woman and a 14% knowledge of Superman

Who do you think should know more?

The answer is not even debatable, the Superman fan has and advantage of knowledge of Superman of 85% and he is versed 50% on Wonder Woman.

The only way this will change, is if The WW fan will take sometime and inform himself on Superman comics before constructing arguments of ignorance or ill informed or at least he can't lets us know that he is ill informed on Superman. The same applies to the Superman fan, but he is at least better informed on the WW topic.

As for the gear of WW, I think is good that people like you who follow WW inform everybody of those details and btw I never thought that the sword shown on tomorrow is part of her standard gear. I know that because I read Superman comics and JLA comics.



I think you are wrong just by the simple percentages I showed you above, Reading JLA gives us access to 49% of characters like Aquaman, WW, MMH, Flash while WW readers only access 14% of characters like Superman or Batman.

btw I used to read a lot of all the Superman, Batman, Hulk, Punisher and Spiderman tittles backed up by JLA, Xmen classic and Avengers so that gives you a general idea.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I believe in testing out theories.

Let me preface with saying that, in place of "99%" I would substitute "most" for greater accuracy. There's other language I would not use here of course, but let's proceed all the same.

Salsa, if what you're saying is correct, you should have mighty disagreements with the following.

See if you do.

Put it in to words. I think you're more likely to see my point once we get this removed from the level of pure abstraction and start looking at what the other is saying in proper context:



It is always the usual posters who think they know everything about Wonder Woman when clearly they don't most of the times they create arguments of ignorance and when that does not work they just completely ignore evidence or nitpick at feats and or keep moving the goal post.

People who know about Wonder Woman have read a lot of comics I mean Wonder Woman is one of the most published characters in comics. There is a reason why they think Wonder Woman could do this or that.

The detractors eh... Not so much. They are not Wonder Woman experts, they might have their opinions and they are entitled to it. But 99% of the time they are wrong, because they form an argument based on ignorance and if that does not work they nitpick or ignore evidence.


This honestly does not apply. Like you said WW gets her big feats outside her title. If any people like US who read only WW trough JLA comics will tend to overstimate WW as we are reading the feats she does not get regularly on her book

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Tying up loose ends, since I originally intended to address everything you'd brought up in this thread:


Originally posted by ODG

Maxwell's mental powers caused Superman to see and react to situations "strategic," sometimes "brilliant," despite being made to see different things at different times:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Sacrifice01%20AoS%20642.jpg

Oh I forgot ODG is a Superman expert after alll he is the one who said that red sun radiation hurts krypronians.

But besides that and addresing your argument and his.

If strategically brilliant is to send a flight less enemy back to earth is "strategically brilliant" on your opinion I see why you might think this argument of yours/his is "strategically brilliant"

And please stay away of the vs topic on this thread . I dont want PR to close this.

Latee on I will create a topic in which we can discuss the historical fifights of WW and Sm.

But for now lets stay on topic

The topic is how is easier to follow a characters who has less appearances than a character who has a lot of appearances

Still waiting for a responee to this post.

We already have two other posters agrreing that is easier to follow a character with less comics

And this post by the numbers basically seals the deal and proves how flawed your argument was unless you have other way to explain why is harder to follow a character like WW who has less appearances

After that We can move on to the other topic

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I honestly don't know how is it that you are disagreeing that is easier to follow a character with few apparitions than a charatcer with lots of apparitions, but lets keep going.




I will put this in percentages. Superman appeared on 7 publications:

Superman, Action Comics, Adventures of Superman, Man of Steel, Man of Tomorrow, JLA and Superman/Batman

If you read all of those comics that means you read 99% of Superman comics regulaly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Superman comics.

Wonder Woman appeared on 2 publications:

Wonder Woman and JLA

If you read all those comics that means you read 99% of Wonder Woman comics regularly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Wonder Woman comics.

BUT Lets inverse the roles here

The Superman fan since he reads JLA titles too he is versed on 49.5% of Wonder Woman appearances
The Wonder Woman fan since he reads JLA tittles too he is versed on 14% of Superman appearances

So the Superman fan has a 99% knowledge of Superman and a 49.5% knowledge of Wonder Woman
The Wonder Woman fan has a 99% knowledge of Wonder Woman and a 14% knowledge of Superman

Who do you think should know more?

The answer is not even debatable, the Superman fan has and advantage of knowledge of Superman of 85% and he is versed 50% on Wonder Woman.

The only way this will change, is if The WW fan will take sometime and inform himself on Superman comics before constructing arguments of ignorance or ill informed or at least he can't lets us know that he is ill informed on Superman. The same applies to the Superman fan, but he is at least better informed on the WW topic.

As for the gear of WW, I think is good that people like you who follow WW inform everybody of those details and btw I never thought that the sword shown on tomorrow is part of her standard gear. I know that because I read Superman comics and JLA comics.



I think you are wrong just by the simple percentages I showed you above, Reading JLA gives us access to 49% of characters like Aquaman, WW, MMH, Flash while WW readers only access 14% of characters like Superman or Batman.

btw I used to read a lot of all the Superman, Batman, Hulk, Punisher and Spiderman tittles backed up by JLA, Xmen classic and Avengers so that gives you a general idea.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Still waiting for a response to this post.

We already have two other posters agreeing that is easier to follow a character with less comics

And this post by the numbers basically seals the deal and proves how flawed your argument was unless you have other way to explain why is harder to follow a character like WW who has less appearances

After that We can move on to the other topic


As I said, your overall premise, as a general idea, I don't have severe disagreement with. In the context of the versus thread we were in?
Yes, I have great issue with it, not because of the idea itself, but because of all the implications it carries with it. Note that Riv himself, one of the 2 posters you're referring to, ALSO made my same objection, and noted he had experience with someone who carried your idea to the faulty conclusion of "he who has the most magazines has the most feats and therefore wins".


You dealt with one of my other main objections by clarifying you did not really intend to restrict the pool to titles with the characters name or moniker. At the least, that's what I get from the other 3 pages in this thread.
I think you'll agree: If you restrict, say, Wonder Woman TO her Wonder Woman title for feats, you have almost nothing to show for her. Restrict Superman to HIS titles and you still have a collection of many, if not most, of his best stunts.

There's one other thing, IF you want to carry this, as you've been phrasing it, as a general thing, and not specifically to Wonder Woman or Superman.

This is the real-life logistics counter to your premise.

Less published characters are generally lesser known and less popular.

They don't sell well. So stores tend to stop carrying the magazines of that character in favor of more popular ones. Gradually, they begin to disappear.

So, they become harder to find and collect. Often to the point where, the little you COULD theoretically get and read on lesser-known-less-popular character, is still practically unobtainable.

It is actually a similar reality that took comics out of many Mom and Pop stores. It was either Peter David or Kurt Busiek who actually explained the process to me, or at least the theory, in a surprise response on a forum like this one. He made the unlikely argument that comics, by keeping their selling prices low, actually lowered their circulation. For the simple fact that, compared to other publications, they made almost no money in sales for the business owners who stocked them.

With the Internet, this becomes at least slightly less of a problem, owing to the remarkable connectedness and spread of information it allows.

Anyway, in a general sense, that's the real-world answer to your main thread question.

Nah! Like you said the internet has changed things

I can actually and easily follow oscure characters like Aztek or Azrael with out any problem. After I read their "20" something comics compared to Batman where I have to read LOTS of comics and Batman's appearances are so many that is more likely I will skip by mistake some of them.

So reading the popular titles gives you that extra advantage of knowledge in which you get exposed to the lesser known characters just by proxy.

This is why if you read all the Superman titles you will be by default exposed to almost half of the tittles in which the less popular characters appear alongside Superman, but unfortunately is not on the same degree the other way around.

Since we have cleared pretty much this topic I will create the other one only involving post crisis stories canon and non canon. Hopefully I can do it with in the next day. I will include title of the comic and the fights.